What is it about rockers going country?

[The Punished]

Somebody please explain the new appeal of rockers going country? I don't get it...

Bon Jovi releases a freaking country album and now I just read that Damon Johnson of Brother Cane and Alice Cooper's band has started his very own country band called Whiskey Falls?

What is up? Good ole fashioned hard rocking just not good enough anymore? I mean Bon Jovi finally has another hit album which I guess is the bottom line but c'mon! Don't they miss the rock? I know I do!

I have heard a few tracks off each album and they really don't get my fires burning like a good rock song. Now, I understand Bon Jovi is more pop nowadays and even in the prime parts of the band's heydays were also pop.

But the early stuff kinda worked... Ya know...Runaway and such. I am flabbergasted! If my talent was to create rock I would stick with it and not sell out for a bit of pocket change. Anybody else wanna sound off?

[parrish]

Just an idea, but maybe rock/pop and country have started crossing over into the airways more and some artists want to try something different.

In all reality though, I imagine "for the money" is the real answer.

[ACK!]

I'm not a fan of country music, but even I can tell that what passes for country these days isn't the twangy, hardcore stuff of decades past. Country itself has incorporated elements of rock and pop and there are hardline country fans who bemoan the fact that their music has crossed over with the mainstream.

Just because you put a fiddle and a little twang in the music doesn't mean that Bon Jovi's gone Grand Ol' Opry on us. It's just a marketing thing. Bon Jovi's audience has grown older. They can't market themselves to the younger, downloading crowd, so they're going down another avenue. And it seems to have worked, as Lost Highway was their first album to reach #1 on the Billboard chart since 1988's New Jersey, which represented the band in their heyday.

Bon Jovi got lumped in with hair metal bands back in the '80s, but I don't know if metal was the right category. Pop metal, perhaps. But I wouldn't lump them in with Guns 'N Roses, that's for dang sure!:eek:

[Dennis K]

What, no mention of David Lee Roth's Van Halen/Bluegrass album?


On a serious note however, there has always been a connection between country and rock and roll. It could be as figurative as the lifestyle led by one Hank Williams Sr, to the very literal southern rock/country stylings of the the Allman Brothers, Lynyrd Skynyrd, Marshall Tucker Band, Pure Praire League, Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, etc, etc. My own personal opinion is that there is no act today that better exemplifies the common roots between the two than Shooter Jennings and the .357s

[howyadoin]

What, no mention of David Lee Roth's Van Halen/Bluegrass album?We're still trying to forget.

[Punchy]

Its for the money and thats the long and short of it. Kind of like when Rod Stewart and KISS did disco tracks in the late 70s.

[Slam_Bradley]

Its for the money and thats the long and short of it. Kind of like when Rod Stewart and KISS did disco tracks in the late 70s.


This is exactly right. Rock & Roll albums don't sell right now. Country does.

Country music is cyclical. The current cycle is a sound that is very reminiscent of 70s rock. So Rock & Roll artists can pull off the current country sound. Much like the backlash against the Urban Cowboy sound there will be a backlash against this country sound and we'll get a new wave of real country music again.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I'm all for as much genre crossover as possible. (And making money is really high on the list of valid reasons to do anything, even recording in a more marketable style.) I do like country music, and don't buy that rock & roll is an inherently superior form, so the idea is more intriguing to me than anything.

The only problem I have with it, then, is that Bon Jovi's pop-country is as crappy as Bon Jovi's pop-rock always was. And speaking of that, "Wanted Dead Or Alive" was totally a country song with pop-metal production. It's not like this came out of nowhere; he always fit in better with the Springsteen/Mellencamp school of blue-collar pop than with the hair bands. Blue-collar pop is pretty much only represented by country nowadays, if you want to be commercial at all; and country is more or less rock & roll with a twang nowadays too.

Wake me when the talented rockers start going country, and then I'll care.

[howyadoin]

On a serious note however, there has always been a connection between country and rock and roll.Don't forget the Flying Burrito Brothers, Jason & the Scorchers, Jerry Lee Lewis, Ray Charles...

[howyadoin]

he always fit in better with the Springsteen/Mellencamp school of blue-collar pop...Well sure, that's where he stole all his ideas from.

http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/bonjovi/albums/album/321524/review/5943475/new_jersey

[Dan Apodaca]

There's also the demonstrable fact that as "rockers" get older, they don't rock as hard. They start making more mellow music that you can talk over.

[mattx110]

you are alllllll so wrong. sorry.

well not allllll of you, but some of you.
the rock music coming out now sucks. the country music coming out now is rock music. gretchen wilson, brad paisley, johnny hiland. they're "country" but they rock harder than 99% of the people calling themselves rock bands around now. a band you thought was rock suddenly has violins and acoustic guitars and you realize "hey! this is country music". don't worry, it still rocks and it doesn't hurt to enjoy it.

[Patient Boy]

What is up? Good ole fashioned hard rocking just not good enough anymore? I mean Bon Jovi finally has another hit album which I guess is the bottom line but c'mon! Don't they miss the rock? I know I do!


When was Bon Jovi ever hard rocking?

Mostly I wonder where all the rap metal bands have gone. All of them pretty uniformly gave up rapping (I suppose this is a blessing). I suppose this started when Fred Durst stopped talking about how white kids in his high school made fun of him for listening to rap and started getting tattoos of Elvis and Kurt Cobain.

[Adam C]

Bon Jovi got lumped in with hair metal bands back in the '80s, but I don't know if metal was the right category. Pop metal, perhaps. But I wouldn't lump them in with Guns 'N Roses, that's for dang sure!:eek:

Interestingly enough, most G'n'R fans I've spoken to wouldn't lump Guns 'N Roses in with hair metal either.

When was Bon Jovi ever hard rocking?


I wondered when was it that he got classified as a "rocker."

Mostly I wonder where all the rap metal bands have gone.

Probably the same place Fred Durst's career went.

[Patient Boy]

Probably the same place Fred Durst's career went.

I know that place! (http://www.skobba.com/var/plain/storage/images/pictures/man_made/misc/toilet/548-1-eng-GB/toilet_xlarge.jpg)

[Reptisaurus!]

Probably the same place Fred Durst's career went.

He did sort of go away, didn't he. Ahhhhhh. That's a nice feeling.

Anyway, I'm with Matt here. (For once.) Post Garth Brooks the division between Rock and Country... well, it ain't much of a division at all, really. Switching from Rock to Country mike take a few production tweaks and getting yer cousin Fred to come play the violin on a couple tracks, but the songs themselves, well, don't have to be changed much at all.

What really weirds me out is Cowboy Troy style country Rap. I have nothing against either genre, but this feels unnatural and Frankenstienish.

[Punchy]

you are alllllll so wrong. sorry.

well not allllll of you, but some of you.
the rock music coming out now sucks. the country music coming out now is rock music. gretchen wilson, brad paisley, johnny hiland. they're "country" but they rock harder than 99% of the people calling themselves rock bands around now. a band you thought was rock suddenly has violins and acoustic guitars and you realize "hey! this is country music". don't worry, it still rocks and it doesn't hurt to enjoy it.

And the reason for them picking up violins and acoustic guitars is because country music sells well and most rock bands are more concerned with selling records than rocking hard.

And I'd like to hear some examples of country songs by well known rock bands that you think "rocks". I saw Bon Jovi on the TV the other day and their new stuff stinks.

Besides, Dave Matthews Band has had violin and acoustic guitar forever and I don't think anyone here would call them country. There are some pretty experienced music listeners around here. I doubt any of use would confuse instrumentation for genre.

[elheffe]

And I'd like to hear some examples of country songs by well known rock bands that you think "rocks". I saw Bon Jovi on the TV the other day and their new stuff stinks.

"More Adventurous" by Rilo Kiley?

[Reptisaurus!]

White Stripes - I'm Lonely (But I Ain't That Lonely Yet)

[Punchy]

sellouts! both of them!

[Rattlehead]

And I'd like to hear some examples of country songs by well known rock bands that you think "rocks". I saw Bon Jovi on the TV the other day and their new stuff stinks.

Rebel Meets Rebel-David Allan Coe being backed up by Pantera. It's old-school drinking music with distortion. Definately miles ahead of Bon Jovi's pandering nonsense.

[Camron Amaya]

I don't even want to hear country going country let alone rock. Country hurts my brain and ears.

[Reptisaurus!]

Rebel Meets Rebel-David Allan Coe being backed up by Pantera. It's old-school drinking music with distortion. Definately miles ahead of Bon Jovi's pandering nonsense.

THAT could work. I was wondering if Pantera ever did a straight-up country album.

[Rob Allen]

The Grateful Dead always had a country side to their sound and some classic country songs in their repertoire. And Jerry Garcia really enjoyed playing bluegrass with his own band and with David Grisman.

[Ilash]

Honestly, I've never really given this trend a second thought because to me rock and roll and country have always been linked. Not many people would deny the influence that people like Hank Williams or Johnny Cash had on rock and roll and many, if not most, of the classic rock and roll bands and artists wore their country influences on their sleeves.

I suppose that the argument could be made that once rock and roll turned into just plain "rock music", the country influences became a lot less pronounced but that's just another reason to prefer "rock and roll" to "rock", I suppose.

[mattx110]

And the reason for them picking up violins and acoustic guitars is because country music sells well and most rock bands are more concerned with selling records than rocking hard.

And I'd like to hear some examples of country songs by well known rock bands that you think "rocks". I saw Bon Jovi on the TV the other day and their new stuff stinks.

Besides, Dave Matthews Band has had violin and acoustic guitar forever and I don't think anyone here would call them country. There are some pretty experienced music listeners around here. I doubt any of use would confuse instrumentation for genre.

you know rock comes from country. the lines between western swing, rockabilly, blues, rock and roll, rock and country, and 6 other related genres are so meshed that i think i heard jimmy bryant do all of them at the same time once or twice.
danny gatton was a guitarist from the baltimore-DC-Virginia area that has it's own mix of rock jazz and country that i think is going to influence more musicians every generation.
warren zevon recorded woody guthrie songs and blues standards.
bruce springsteen was always a bit more country than most.
flogging molly's last album was amazingly country and probably the best album they've come out with.
john hiatt has varying degrees of country, new wave, punk and blues depending on his backing band and his mood at the time. from michael ward to dave immergluck, sonny landreth and the goners, and now the north mississippi all-stars.

music that knows it's roots will usually be stronger than the guy struggling to re-invent the wheel.

and darrell abbott of pantera came from a country-rock background musically.

and bon jovi is a darn pretty boy. people that girly looking don't make rocking music unless they're from tennessee.

and cowboy troy is oddly entrancing. i guess he's the inheriter of the "Talking blues" style comedic folk song... but there is something odd about him. i think it might be the shiny shiny belt.

nobody i mentioned labelled themselves "Country" to sell records. that was just a happy coincidence:D

[Punchy]

you know rock comes from country. the lines between western swing, rockabilly, blues, rock and roll, rock and country, and 6 other related genres are so meshed that i think i heard jimmy bryant do all of them at the same time once or twice.
danny gatton was a guitarist from the baltimore-DC-Virginia area that has it's own mix of rock jazz and country that i think is going to influence more musicians every generation.


I disagree, I see rock and country coming from two distinct branches. Rock from the blues and negro spirituals which is directly African in influence and country coming from old-timey music (Americana folk) which is directly European in influence.

But this is totally besides the point. What I'm talking about here isn't some rock musicians who were digging Hank Williams, I'm talking about the new pop country crapola whose popularity is prompting some rock artists to mimic it.

I have nothing wrong with influences in the musical context, in the popular one I raise an eyebrow though.

[mattx110]

I disagree, I see rock and country coming from two distinct branches. Rock from the blues and negro spirituals which is directly African in influence and country coming from old-timey music (Americana folk) which is directly European in influence.

But this is totally besides the point. What I'm talking about here isn't some rock musicians who were digging Hank Williams, I'm talking about the new pop country crapola whose popularity is prompting some rock artists to mimic it.

I have nothing wrong with influences in the musical context, in the popular one I raise an eyebrow though.

eh, i guess it depends on if they're doing it to tap into a new market, or to make an album that their mom would be proud of.

the "nashville sound" is nice, but it needs limits.

and elvis was a country-boy.:D

[Reptisaurus!]

I disagree, I see rock and country coming from two distinct branches. Rock from the blues and negro spirituals which is directly African in influence and country coming from old-timey music (Americana folk) which is directly European in influence.


I don't see it as being that simple. Hank Williams had to have listened to the Blues, right? (I have no proof of this. But, geez, listen to his stuff.)

And a bunch of the black Jazz Singers of the 20s and 30s changed their sound to be more easily marketed to white audiences (I'm thinkin' Ethel Waters and Cab Calloway here, especially.) And a substantial portion of Billy Holiday's repertoire was written by white dudes.

And by the time you get up to rock 'n roll, the common anscetor, Ray Charles, Chuck Berry, and Elvis were all drawin' from both country and R & B.

But this is totally besides the point. What I'm talking about here isn't some rock musicians who were digging Hank Williams, I'm talking about the new pop country crapola whose popularity is prompting some rock artists to mimic it.


Well, is it any worse than the last few Bon Jovi albums? Seems to me like shitty band continues to play shitty music.

[Adam C]

Honestly, I've never really given this trend a second thought because to me rock and roll and country have always been linked.

Ditto. I've never seen it as a "trend" so much as something that happens.

I don't see it as being that simple. Hank Williams had to have listened to the Blues, right? (I have no proof of this. But, geez, listen to his stuff.)

You wouldn't be the first one to notice that, but there is in fact proof. Hank learnt his craft not from a white singer, but a black blues singer named Rufus Payne who performed under the name Tee Tot. Going back further the Carter Family were basically white performers playing blues and negro spirituals. Alvin P. Carter actually got a lot of his material, including "Wabash Cannonball" from a one-legged blues player named Lesley Riddle, who actually lived with the family on-and-off for several years and taught Maybellene Carter a few tricks on the guitar.

(I think Jimmie Rodgers has a bit of blues background, but I don't know as much about his influences save that he played blackface in medicine shows.)

And by the time you get up to rock 'n roll, the common anscetor, Ray Charles, Chuck Berry, and Elvis were all drawin' from both country and R & B.

Let's not forget rockabilly as a whole.

(And just to drive my point home, guess where Howlin' Wolf's famous 'Wolf's Howl' comes from? Trying to imitate Jimmie Rodgers yodelling. And Muddy Waters' favourite singer? Gene Autry.)

[Ilash]

I disagree, I see rock and country coming from two distinct branches. Rock from the blues and negro spirituals which is directly African in influence and country coming from old-timey music (Americana folk) which is directly European in influence.


I don't agree. Rock and roll is very much a synthesis between "black" and "white" music, mostly American but with more and more European influences being brought in as time went on. It could be argued that rock and roll did draw more from black music (and generally, I prefer it when it does) but that hardly negates the gigantic country influence.

[Michael P]

I'm sorry, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the assertion that Brad Paisley "rocks." I mean, I liked "He Didn't Have To Be," but unless "rock" and "pussy" have suddenly changed places, that sentence makes no sense.

[Punchy]

I don't see it as being that simple. Hank Williams had to have listened to the Blues, right? (I have no proof of this. But, geez, listen to his stuff.)

And a bunch of the black Jazz Singers of the 20s and 30s changed their sound to be more easily marketed to white audiences (I'm thinkin' Ethel Waters and Cab Calloway here, especially.) And a substantial portion of Billy Holiday's repertoire was written by white dudes.

I don't think that Billie Holiday singing "Strange Fruit" (which was written by a white man) and some rock band adding lap steel guitars and changing how they've written songs is the same thing at all. While I'm not a big fan of some of the corny songs that jazz singers recorded because they wanted to sell records, I don't think the race of the songwriter has anything to do with the credibility of the singer.

I mean, that's what jazz started as; musicians improvising and putting their own personality in to the popular song of the day.
And by the time you get up to rock 'n roll, the common anscetor, Ray Charles, Chuck Berry, and Elvis were all drawin' from both country and R & B.


Well, is it any worse than the last few Bon Jovi albums? Seems to me like shitty band continues to play shitty music.
Well I'm not saying the two are totally separate from each other, just that they come from different ancestry.

ALL American popular music from jazz to blues to rock to country boils down to one thing: African rhythms mixed withed Western harmony (Western in the classic sense, European that is). What each genre takes from each is where the differences come from.

Rock n' Roll is more defined by its rhythm than its harmony (I mean just look at its name, rocking and rolling doesn't address melody or chords in the least) while Country music is more defined by its harmony and melody. Think about it: Country is slower for the most part, European waltzes and even polkas to a certain extent play a bigger role, etc.

So that's what I'm talking about, the very essence of each genre. But no style can exist in a vacuum and certainly no artist can either and influences can come from everywhere.

[Patriot07]

ALL American popular music from jazz to blues to rock to country boils down to one thing: African rhythms mixed withed Western harmony (Western in the classic sense, European that is). What each genre takes from each is where the differences come from.

Listen to Robert Johnson and Charley Patton. There's little to no white influence.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Listen to Robert Johnson and Charley Patton. There's little to no white influence.
Except they sing in English (and use the language beautifully), play Western chords and voicings, and follow popular-song traditions (separate verses, instrumental solos) developed by white people and delivered to poor people (black and white) by vaudeville, minstrel shows, and records -- all of which were dominated by whites.

The naive idea that any black American music, whether blues, jazz, funk, or rap, is directly and unmixedly African is as ridiculous as to suggest that there's any white popular music in the last half-century that hasn't been influenced by black performers.

[mattx110]

Listen to Robert Johnson and Charley Patton. There's little to no white influence.

ummm.... wrong...

Punchy
blues moved from 1-4-1 to 1-4-5-1 to including minor blues, turnarounds that let the 3 and 6 get some action. to eventually wes montgomery playing entire lines based on diminished chord shapes. which can make interpreting harmony either really simple, or a 6 month excercise.
maybe country found those minor chords first, but the banjo wasn't "The americana instrument" when it was still in africa. and hey, it's a harmonically strong instrument.
american music isn't just "african rythm and western harmony". western rythm wasn't some non-existent entity. and if you think a rock song couldn't develop on western rythm alone, well i assure you, it could.

and if you ask any musician "What's rock and roll?" they don't usually say "boom boom baboom boom" they say "like a sped-up blues, 1-4-5." because they define it by it's harmony. the difference between blues and jazz is largely harmonic.
and polkas are pretty rythmically specific. not as much as flamenco, but pretty specific. the rythm is extremely important to making it a polka, and not a ballroom dancing song.
it's a fact that rock and roll is a direct descendant from country. elvis started on country songs, with gospel thrown in. ricky nelson was a country singer. they just toned down the "Twang" on the vocals, and kept it on the instruments.
so how come country songs with drums can sound so much like a blues song sped up? cause we all have the same musical fathers. and the lines between "black music" and "white music" are restrictive to understanding how music was really spread. segregation didn't stop musicians.:)
chuck berry has said more than once he was playing "Country songs" and it came out as rock and roll. he didn't say "i sped up some blues". he knows who his musical parents are.

and Michael P.: listen to almost any track from "Time well wasted" or the new one"5th gear?", and if you still think "pussy" then you don't know what rock is. trust me, once you distance him from the sappy ballad, which rockers do too, you can take him for the insane guitarplaying rocker he really is. you really have to go out of your way to find that sappy stupid song that is always the single.

[Ilash]

Except they sing in English (and use the language beautifully), play Western chords and voicings, and follow popular-song traditions (separate verses, instrumental solos) developed by white people and delivered to poor people (black and white) by vaudeville, minstrel shows, and records -- all of which were dominated by whites.

The naive idea that any black American music, whether blues, jazz, funk, or rap, is directly and unmixedly African is as ridiculous as to suggest that there's any white popular music in the last half-century that hasn't been influenced by black performers.

Yup, I've heard enough actual African music to say that African-American music is really far removed from traditional African music. The only real similarity is that both of them place a fair amount of emphasis on rhythm but even there the rhythms are quite different. African-American music is also much more melodic than its more primal, rhythmic African counterpart. Not that I know that much about African music, it's very much not my thing but I guess I have been exposed to more of it than most other people on the board.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Yup, I've heard enough actual African music to say that African-American music is really far removed from traditional African music. The only real similarity is that both of them place a fair amount of emphasis on rhythm but even there the rhythms are quite different. African-American music is also much more melodic than its more primal, rhythmic African counterpart. Not that I know that much about African music, it's very much not my thing but I guess I have been exposed to more of it than most other people on the board.
Well, even the music current on the African continent now has been influenced by American music. Fela Kuti and Thomas Mapfumo loved James Brown, and so forth.

[Ilash]

Well, even the music current on the African continent now has been influenced by American music. Fela Kuti and Thomas Mapfumo loved James Brown, and so forth.

I'd have to take your word for this but it doesn't surprise me at all, neither that African music (like so much of African culture - here in South Africa at least) is becoming more Westernized, nor that you know more about African music than me.

[Reptisaurus!]

I don't think that Billie Holiday singing "Strange Fruit" (which was written by a white man) and some rock band adding lap steel guitars and changing how they've written songs is the same thing at all. While I'm not a big fan of some of the corny songs that jazz singers recorded because they wanted to sell records, I don't think the race of the songwriter has anything to do with the credibility of the singer.


Not the same thing, but both are indicative of how American Music works. The lines between blues and country have always been a li'l blurry. Ditto the lines between melodic and rhythmic music. Ditto the lines between countryand rock.


Rock n' Roll is more defined by its rhythm than its harmony (I mean just look at its name, rocking and rolling doesn't address melody or chords in the least) while Country music is more defined by its harmony and melody. Think about it: Country is slower for the most part, European waltzes and even polkas to a certain extent play a bigger role, etc.


Rock 'n Roll (in it's original sense) certainly. But I don't think that's as true now-a-days. I totally see where your coming from re: how MUCH of certain elements they traditionally use, but it seems to me that in the last fifteen/twenty years country and soft/medium hard rock are closer in sound than they ever have been. Rock has incorporated more and more melodic emphasis (maybe to differentiate itself from hip-hop?) and I could be wrong but it seems like country's turned a tech more rhythmic. The lines were never completely clear, but less clear now than ever before.

And, certainly, I'm not seeing the trend towards countrification - virtually always among the more harmonic and less rhythmic of the rockers - to be that surprising.

Nor does it strike me as an indicator of quality. Good rock bands make good country, jes' like Brother Ray did. Bad rock bands poop out awfulness, regardless of what label they slap on their products.


And Muddy Waters' favourite singer? Gene Autry.


Didn't know that one. Ha!


Except they sing in English (and use the language beautifully), play Western chords and voicings, and follow popular-song traditions (separate verses, instrumental solos) developed by white people and delivered to poor people (black and white) by vaudeville, minstrel shows, and records -- all of which were dominated by whites.



And I dunno about the Masked Marvel* but I've heard that a decent amount of Johnson's repetoir was re-worked hymns done in blues style.

On the other hand the two of 'em were certainly NOT marketed to white audiences the way Ethel Waters or even Bessie Smith were. All American art is kind of glommed together and strange, but that era of blues was probably the most purely... ummm... "black" popular music of the 20th century.


I'm sorry, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the assertion that Brad Paisley "rocks." I mean, I liked "He Didn't Have To Be," but unless "rock" and "pussy" have suddenly changed places, that sentence makes no sense.


Who's this now? Never even heard of the guy and already he's gone country.
Bah!


Damon Johnson of Brother Cane and Alice Cooper's band has started his very own country band called Whiskey Falls


Also: That's a damn fine name for a country band. Much better name than "Alice Cooper."



* And speaking as a superhero comics fan... That's the greatest nickname ever. Charlie Patton Rules.

[Ilash]

Rock 'n Roll (in it's original sense) certainly. But I don't think that's as true now-a-days. I totally see where your coming from re: how MUCH of certain elements they traditionally use, but it seems to me that in the last fifteen/twenty years country and soft/medium hard rock are closer in sound than they ever have been. Rock has incorporated more and more melodic emphasis (maybe to differentiate itself from hip-hop?) and I could be wrong but it seems like country's turned a tech more rhythmic. The lines were never completely clear, but less clear now than ever before.

I agree with this except that rock and roll became more melodic the minute guys like Buddy Holly started to leave their mark on it - let alone the Beatles. You don't really want to say that the Beatles made music that was primarily rhythmic do you?


And I dunno about the Masked Marvel* but I've heard that a decent amount of Johnson's repetoir was re-worked hymns done in blues style.

On the other hand the two of 'em were certainly NOT marketed to white audiences the way Ethel Waters or even Bessie Smith were. All American art is kind of glommed together and strange, but that era of blues was probably the most purely... ummm... "black" popular music of the 20th century.

Again, black AMERICAN maybe but not black African and as Jonathan pointed out, it does seem that black American music did take in a lot of white influences. As is probably fitting of the USA, it does seem like all American music integrates all sorts of styles so it's hard to say that any American music is purely "black" or purely "white".

[Alex]

I was under the impression country had gone rock, or at least pop rock, before rock went country.
I'm only judging from the few bits of newer country i've heard though, i'm not really familar with the genre.

[mattx110]

Who's this now? Never even heard of the guy and already he's gone country.
Bah!




when it comes to brad paisley and well, everyone else in reality, rock and country aren't mutually exclusive. look past the one or two songs you've heard and you get to his rock-guitar roots. and it's not "Southern rock" drinking songs either.

the only limits in music are the physical laws of fundamentals and harmonics, genre is a myth. everything else is just a tool to help make good music.

and yea it's a bit "There is no spoon" to answer "what's the difference between rock and country" to say "there is no genre", but it's sooo true. it really is.
let genre be a historical context, but it hurts me when people say "i don't like country" because it's just ignorant to think you can judge a "genre" so easily that is so massively encompassing of different musics.

[Punchy]

Listen to Robert Johnson and Charley Patton. There's little to no white influence.
This was already answered quite well but I'll throw another angle at it for you; they definitely weren't playing African melodies or harmonies.

ummm.... wrong...

Punchy
american music isn't just "african rythm and western harmony". western rythm wasn't some non-existent entity. and if you think a rock song couldn't develop on western rythm alone, well i assure you, it could.

Most of the rest of your post I agree with though I still hold to the fact that country and rock are different branches. But this is just flat-out wrong.

What is Westerhn rhythm? Waltzes? I mean most of Western music is practically rubato (such as symphonic music). Rock n' Roll, the blues, country and the rest of American music are all uniquely identified by the fact that they accent the weak beats of a measure (the backbeat, or beats 2 and 4). This does not occur in European/Western music and is directly an African influence.

[howyadoin]

What is Westerhn rhythm? Waltzes? I mean most of Western music is practically rubato (such as symphonic music). Rock n' Roll, the blues, country and the rest of American music are all uniquely identified by the fact that they accent the weak beats of a measure (the backbeat, or beats 2 and 4). This does not occur in European/Western music and is directly an African influence.I just think it's hilarious that someone would lecture you about music.

[The Punished]

Wow, this thread has taken a life of its own. I think alot of the reasons are that as Mick told Rocky in Rocky 3, the worst thing ever for a fighter or in this case a metal rocker is to get civilized. The hunger of the street put the fire and the desire to put out work that speaks to everyman.

Once they live the cush life it is so hard to sing about living day to day...

[Punchy]

Wow, this thread has taken a life of its own. I think alot of the reasons are that as Mick told Rocky in Rocky 3, the worst thing ever for a fighter or in this case a metal rocker is to get civilized. The hunger of the street put the fire and the desire to put out work that speaks to everyman.

Once they live the cush life it is so hard to sing about living day to day...

I think that's a very valid point. Well put.

[Reptisaurus!]

I agree with this except that rock and roll became more melodic the minute guys like Buddy Holly started to leave their mark on it - let alone the Beatles. You don't really want to say that the Beatles made music that was primarily rhythmic do you?


Yeah, that's a good point. (Well about the Beatles... Holly's stuff is pretty damn rhythmic compared to mosta the pop stars of his day. Fifties through early sixties pop was a bit on the treacally side.)

I was comparing it more to the eighties and nineties - Michael Jackson and Pearl Jam (who could totally lay down a groove) for instance.



What is Westerhn rhythm? Waltzes? I mean most of Western music is practically rubato (such as symphonic music). Rock n' Roll, the blues, country and the rest of American music are all uniquely identified by the fact that they accent the weak beats of a measure (the backbeat, or beats 2 and 4). This does not occur in European/Western music and is directly an African influence.


Huh. Interesting. I was wondering about the origins of the backbeat.

[Punchy]

Huh. Interesting. I was wondering about the origins of the backbeat.

It started in Africa then moved through Caribbean in what we call the 'clave' rhythm. This exact Caribbean rhythm moved through New Orleans, they swung it and called it 'second line'. From 'second line' you get Dixieland then swing/jazz and the backbeat is born.

[The Girls]

The plain fact is that country has changed... while I dont listen to it much anymore, I used to and it is not the same at all.

Rockers going coutry started a while back. I mean its not only rockers... and I say that soon country and rock will be so similar that they will have new names to discribe them.

Remeber Kid Rock did some with Hank Williams Jr? Or how about Kid Rock and Cheryl Crow? Or even Rod Stewart... or like you said Bon Jovi...

Its not going to stop and all it is doing is changing coutry from what it used to be into this new age rock/country/pop... and I personaly dont mind it too much, but pop... I mean come on now... Pop cant make it on its own why add it to other genres? No body wants Brittany Spears spread wider than she is...

When "cross-breeding" any genre of music with rap becomes popular, we may as well stop plaing music all together... That will be the day that I am thankfull for all of my old CD's... And I may just make copies of them just to make sure that I will always have them.

JMO

[Patient Boy]

When "cross-breeding" any genre of music with rap becomes popular, we may as well stop plaing music all together...

Maybe off-topic, sorry but have you been off planet for the past thirty years or so?

Perhaps you were caught in the rapture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8) along with the magnificent seven (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2119637396328308001), in which case you should walk this way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8A0rhVG91U).

Please read the rest of this thread before further posting.

[mattx110]

The plain fact is that country has changed... while I dont listen to it much anymore, I used to and it is not the same at all.

Rockers going coutry started a while back. I mean its not only rockers... and I say that soon country and rock will be so similar that they will have new names to discribe them.

Remeber Kid Rock did some with Hank Williams Jr? Or how about Kid Rock and Cheryl Crow? Or even Rod Stewart... or like you said Bon Jovi...

Its not going to stop and all it is doing is changing coutry from what it used to be into this new age rock/country/pop... and I personaly dont mind it too much, but pop... I mean come on now... Pop cant make it on its own why add it to other genres? No body wants Brittany Spears spread wider than she is...

When "cross-breeding" any genre of music with rap becomes popular, we may as well stop plaing music all together... That will be the day that I am thankfull for all of my old CD's... And I may just make copies of them just to make sure that I will always have them.

JMO

it's all "pop music". songs with singable melodies, simple chord progressions, and lyrics are all pop songs.

and bringing in "country" to a rock song is a good thing, because frankly, rock needs the help. it really is rock's roots, and sadly, more country artists know this than rockers. we need more wilco, less AFI. and while there may be rockier trend in country music than a few years ago, it was always there since there was a "rock music" because for a little while in the '50s they were literally synonymous.

look up RCA and the nashville sound for origins of "pop-country". chet atkins thought genre was a silly boundary a long time ago, and the records he produced and played on represent this quite well. it isn't his fault the "nashville sound" got so sappy, well, it kinda is, but it's not his fault it got so massive that it screwed up people's perception of what is country or not.

and mixing genres is never a bad thing. genre is a retarded concept and i hope it's dead in 5 years.

[Punchy]

genre is a retarded concept and i hope it's dead in 5 years.

Now this I can get behind.

There's two kinds of music: good and bad.

[Adam C]

Maybe off-topic, sorry but have you been off planet for the past thirty years or so?

Perhaps you were caught in the rapture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8) along with the magnificent seven (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2119637396328308001), in which case you should walk this way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8A0rhVG91U).

Please read the rest of this thread before further posting.

Zhaki...Zhaki...Zhaki....what are you doing?

I mean you posted "Rapture," "The Magnificent Seven," and Run DMC's rendition of Aerosmith, WITHOUT posting Bring the Noise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoLkaGcpJFA)?

[Brad Barton]

Maybe off-topic, sorry but have you been off planet for the past thirty years or so?

Perhaps you were caught in the rapture (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHPikUPlRD8) along with the magnificent seven (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2119637396328308001), in which case you should walk this way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8A0rhVG91U).

Please read the rest of this thread before further posting.Why is it that some people feel they can only make their argument by being a condescending jerk?

Would you speak to a perfect stranger on the street that way when casually discussing a topic as mundane as this?

No?
Then why would you here?

[Patient Boy]

Why is it that some people feel they can only make their argument by being a condescending jerk?

Would you speak to a perfect stranger on the street that way when casually discussing a topic as mundane as this?

No?
Then why would you here?

You know, I really didn't think it was that bad when I posted it, but you're right and I apologise.

I think I'm just tired of "music/comics/movies aren't/isn't the same as it was when I was growing up and therefore it sucks" type of arguments.

[mattx110]

trust me Patient Boy, those "you must have been living under a rock" type jokes never work on the internet. they always come off as a lot ruder than you plan. i got a few people riled when i thought i was jokingly calling someone an alien for missing out on pop culture stuff, and it came off as calling them as a soul-less monster...

[Reptisaurus!]

No body wants Brittany Spears spread wider than she is...



Well, not since she went all bald and crazy...







(I can't believe you all waited for me to get that. It hurts my cherubic l'il heart to have to say such things.)

[Jessica Drew]

Well, not since she went all bald and crazy...







(I can't believe you all waited for me to get that. It hurts my cherubic l'il heart to have to say such things.)

It was too easy a target, but you phrased it better than I would have. If only you'd left off "and crazy"....

[Ilash]

it's all "pop music". songs with singable melodies, simple chord progressions, and lyrics are all pop songs.

and bringing in "country" to a rock song is a good thing, because frankly, rock needs the help. it really is rock's roots, and sadly, more country artists know this than rockers. we need more wilco, less AFI. and while there may be rockier trend in country music than a few years ago, it was always there since there was a "rock music" because for a little while in the '50s they were literally synonymous.

look up RCA and the nashville sound for origins of "pop-country". chet atkins thought genre was a silly boundary a long time ago, and the records he produced and played on represent this quite well. it isn't his fault the "nashville sound" got so sappy, well, it kinda is, but it's not his fault it got so massive that it screwed up people's perception of what is country or not.

and mixing genres is never a bad thing. genre is a retarded concept and i hope it's dead in 5 years.

Hey, aside for the fact that I hate rap music so I generally dislike it when another genre cross-breads with it, this is a post that I can really get behind.

[GRAVEKID]

Sitting around the house this week I saw the Carrie Underwood video on some station that right before had played Fallout Boy. That totally blows!!!

[mattx110]

Sitting around the house this week I saw the Carrie Underwood video on some station that right before had played Fallout Boy. That totally blows!!!

because someone as talented and committed to music as carrie underwood is on the same station as a band whose haircuts are higher art than their music?:D

[Dan Apodaca]

Sitting around the house this week I saw the Carrie Underwood video on some station that right before had played Fallout Boy. That totally blows!!!

Yes, they both do.

But, really that's totally appropriate. I mean, do you honestly believe that Fallout Boy is anything less than corporate pop designed to sell records to little boys who wear studded belts?

You poor thing.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Bon Jovi doesn't shock me with their move to do a country album. Hell , they never denied that they wrote most of their music to sway fans and do radio friendly pop singles at their peak. Over time they have lost some fans but hell...I saw a woman on TV with her kids and husband and she described that as a teenager her and the husband would go see them. She even had stacks of photos with Jovi and he was shocked at the fact that as he gets older....some of his audiance continues to show up and age with him.

When he did his country song last year he told on TV he was kinda suprised that young kids were going to his shows and all. He joked many never knew he was a rock act since they were born right when he exploded onto the scene.

I don't hate the Jovi has crossed over. At least to his section of fans he's still out there pushing forward. Doing something he obviously likes.

[howyadoin]

I mean, do you honestly believe that Fallout Boy is anything less than corporate pop designed to sell records to little boys who wish they were little girls?Good question, but I had to fix that one error.

[FroggieBKT]

I'd argue that Bon Jovi's (amongst others) attempt at country is just the recording industry catching up with a trend that's been a little below radar for a while. There are tons of bands/artists who have done good, if not groundbreaking, work that blends rock, country, roots, bluegrass, etc. To name a few (many have already been mentioned on this thread):
Robert Earl Keen
Steve Earle
Pat Green (who toured with Dave Matthews Band...I know that doesn't earn him rock credentials, but his stuff is pretty heavily influenced by guys like Stevie Ray Vaughn)
Uncle Tupelo (and wilco)
Ryan Adams
While none of these have been chart toppers, they've all gotten at least decent if not very good critical recognition, and most of them have been decent if not solid in sales fairly consistently. I figure, as has already been pointed out, that the record industry is marketing a cheaper, less authentic, heartfelt, or artistically talented version of the above as a means to make money. But then, that's always been the way of it.

[Reptisaurus!]

I've really liked every Fall-Out Boy single. You guys make me sad.


I'd argue that Bon Jovi's (amongst others) attempt at country is just the recording industry catching up with a trend that's been a little below radar for a while. There are tons of bands/artists who have done good, if not groundbreaking, work that blends rock, country, roots, bluegrass, etc. To name a few (many have already been mentioned on this thread):
Robert Earl Keen
Steve Earle
Pat Green (who toured with Dave Matthews Band...I know that doesn't earn him rock credentials, but his stuff is pretty heavily influenced by guys like Stevie Ray Vaughn)
Uncle Tupelo (and wilco)
Ryan Adams
While none of these have been chart toppers, they've all gotten at least decent if not very good critical recognition, and most of them have been decent if not solid in sales fairly consistently. I figure, as has already been pointed out, that the record industry is marketing a cheaper, less authentic, heartfelt, or artistically talented version of the above as a means to make money. But then, that's always been the way of it.


I'm all for this, mind. Any steps that pop music takes Steve-Earle-wards are big 'ol steps in the right direction. :D

But in specific reference to this thread... it's hard for me to imagine a Steve Earle influence on Bon Jovi. Just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, wouldn't you figure BJ and Da Boys would get... well, better? And I haven't seen that happening. Remarkably consistent in their mediocrity. I can see a Garth Brooks influence, at best.

[Patriot07]

On the other hand, hasn't Bon Jovi always had kind of a roadhouse-y country twinge to it? I mean Blaze of Glory, Wanted Dead or Alive and even Livin' on a Prayer (if not only lyrically) have strong country elements. I don't really find a more country based record that suprising from the band. It almost seems natural.

[howyadoin]

I've really liked every Fall-Out Boy single. You guys make me sad.In an ironic way, or seriously?

[FroggieBKT]

I've really liked every Fall-Out Boy single. You guys make me sad.



I'm all for this, mind. Any steps that pop music takes Steve-Earle-wards are big 'ol steps in the right direction. :D

But in specific reference to this thread... it's hard for me to imagine a Steve Earle influence on Bon Jovi. Just can't wrap my head around it. I mean, wouldn't you figure BJ and Da Boys would get... well, better? And I haven't seen that happening. Remarkably consistent in their mediocrity. I can see a Garth Brooks influence, at best.
I'm more arguing that Steve Earle et al have had some influence on the recording industry, causing studio execs to push artists like Bon Jovi to produce "country" albums. The problem is that the execs don't understand that what Earle et al are doing is more than just pop songs with a little twang. Think about it like this, Joe Schmo Studio Exec hears that Pat Green's last album sold really well while he was opening for DMB. He finds out that Green throws a little rock sensibility in now and again. He figures Green is a nobody, so huge sales can't be expected. BUT, if he sticks a proven seller in a cowboy hat, all of a sudden he's got a hit. Joe Schmo Studio Exec would be right.

[Reptisaurus!]

I'm more arguing that Steve Earle et al have had some influence on the recording industry, causing studio execs to push artists like Bon Jovi to produce "country" albums. The problem is that the execs don't understand that what Earle et al are doing is more than just pop songs with a little twang. Think about it like this, Joe Schmo Studio Exec hears that Pat Green's last album sold really well while he was opening for DMB. He finds out that Green throws a little rock sensibility in now and again. He figures Green is a nobody, so huge sales can't be expected. BUT, if he sticks a proven seller in a cowboy hat, all of a sudden he's got a hit. Joe Schmo Studio Exec would be right.

OK. That makes sense.

Although I'd say the bushel baskets full of money that Carrie Underwood is makin' for the studios is probably just as much a motivating factor.

[Paul McEnery]

You know, I really didn't think it was that bad when I posted it, but you're right and I apologise.

I think I'm just tired of "music/comics/movies aren't/isn't the same as it was when I was growing up and therefore it sucks" type of arguments.

You take that apology right back.

You were sooooo completely right.

[The Punished]

Ummmmm, Carrie Underwood has talent?

[mattx110]

Ummmmm, Carrie Underwood has talent?

this may be the most obvious case of using an alternate user-name and propping up your own argument ever. well, except for the 50-cent thread you posted in within 1 minute of this one.

and yes, she has talent. generally people that win talent contests where 30 million people vote do have talent. if you want to attempt a comparison between falloutboy and carrie underwood on any level, from singing, to songwriting, to any category of music, it will only serve to show how much of a disparity there is.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

this may be the most obvious case of using an alternate user-name and propping up your own argument ever. well, except for the 50-cent thread you posted in within 1 minute of this one.

and yes, she has talent. generally people that win talent contests where 30 million people vote do have talent. if you want to attempt a comparison between falloutboy and carrie underwood on any level, from singing, to songwriting, to any category of music, it will only serve to show how much of a disparity there is.

Then explain how Taylor Hicks can beat Chris Daughtry at this same talent contest ?

Because one has a hot album that at last check has sold over 3 million albums. The other barely crossed 600,000 albums and will be headlining your Wal-Mart opening soon.

Also to tie into the Bon Jovi deal....Daughtry's album is the 1st rock album since Slippery When Wet to take weeks to get to 1# on the Billboard chart.

[Reptisaurus!]

this may be the most obvious case of using an alternate user-name and propping up your own argument ever. well, except for the 50-cent thread you posted in within 1 minute of this one.


Right. You got me. The Punished and I are the same person. I'm also Ilash. That is when I'm not busy playing guitar under my stage name Angus Young or pencilling comics as "John Byrne."

(Well, doesn't it sound like that's what he was saying?)

and yes, she has talent. generally people that win talent contests where 30 million people vote do have talent.


Is this American Idol? Or are there American Idol knock-offs now? I didn't know she was on TV. She was the only recent country singer who's name I remember from listening to the radio, though I've only heard one song.

Which is a good song, mind. But there's talent and theres TALENT, and this ain't the second coming of Aretha or nothin'.


if you want to attempt a comparison between falloutboy and carrie underwood on any level, from singing, to songwriting, to any category of music, it will only serve to show how much of a disparity there is.

Nobody likes the Fall-Out Boy. I remain sad. Sad that you're all WRONG, mind. But still sad.

[mattx110]

Right. You got me. The Punished and I are the same person. I'm also Ilash. That is when I'm not busy playing guitar under my stage name Angus Young or pencilling comics as "John Byrne."

(Well, doesn't it sound like that's what he was saying?)


Is this American Idol? Or are there American Idol knock-offs now? I didn't know she was on TV. She was the only recent country singer who's name I remember from listening to the radio, though I've only heard one song.

Which is a good song, mind. But there's talent and theres TALENT, and this ain't the second coming of Aretha or nothin'.



Nobody likes the Fall-Out Boy. I remain sad. Sad that you're all WRONG, mind. But still sad.

and carrie is what? 20something? she doesn't have to be the second coming of aretha. but she's good, and that's enough.
umm, im' not talking about you. i'm talking about the guy who in two threads within 10 seconds posted "i agree with GRAVEKID" y'know, the guy with 8 posts to his name...

oh, and people don't buy based on who is better, but who they like. maybe they really likefalloutboys haircuts, or daughtry's lack of need for a haircut. maybe the fact that he sounds exactly like a band that was big a couple years ago.