Bleach: Oh, save me, Jesus

[Sean Whitmore]

I really liked this show when it began on Adult Swim. Sure, it was slightly derivative of Yu Yu Hakusho, but it had enough charm and energy that I still found it entertaining for quite awhile.

My opinion of the show has been going downhill since the Soul Society arc (or whatever we're calling it). Suddenly, the things I liked about the show were in short supply, and it was becoming harder and harder to differentiate it from Naruto.

Which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but I just can't deal with it. I can't handle a show beginning with two people in the middle of a fight and...ending with those two people in the middle of a fight. I can't comprehend someone performing a cool action move and then somebody else, in an annoying voice over, explaining the move in excruciating detail. I can't get excited by bad guys endlessly proclaiming, "You can barely beat me, and the guy you'll fight after me is 10,000 times more powerful than I am!"

But even so, I stuck with it. I'd just put too much damn energy in the show to stop watching. So I watched tonight's episode, and Ichigo is still fighting Zaraki (after four FRIGGIN episodes). And it seemed promising, with Ichigo's battle against his inner devil not taking up the entire episode like I thought it would. And then Zaraki starts his talk about accepting Ichigo as his equal or possible superior, and suddenly I'm interested again. This fight might actually end!

And then Zaraki says he's gonna start using his full power, and my mind just...checked out, for a second. In the words of Lewis Black, "I saw a clear blue sky."

I dunno, this show went from being enjoyable, to inoffensive, to actively sapping my will as I watch it. I think I actually have less of an imagination now for having seen it.

Am I being too harsh? Does the show get better? Is the show great as it is and it's just not for me? Is it lame and I shouldn't have held in this long?


SEAN

[SAMAS]

You mean someone didn't warn you?

I've heard it so many times that yes, Bleach's quality takes a nosedive after the Soul Society arc.

[Xero Kaiser]

Huh..most of the fights in Bleach seemed pretty short. And the part you're describing with Zaraki is the end of the fight.

Most of the fights in the Soul Society arc didn't run longer than an episode or two. The fight with Zaraki was about the only time it went longer

[MKTerra]

I've heard it so many times that yes, Bleach's quality takes a nosedive after the Soul Society arc.Do you mean "once the Soul Society arc starts" or "after the Soul Society arc ends"?

[SAMAS]

That, I didn't pay much attention to. I think it was after, but I could be wrong.

[Citizen V]

Everyone has their own say for these sorts of things..

[Nightstar1441]

I've noticed what you are saying Sean - I've been sucked into it too - the long fight scenes are continuously getting drawn out and the story is really starting to stall.

From all indications though - it does not look like it's gonna get better anytime soon and because the fight scenes are dragging out - other characters and storylines are falling by the wayside - and that means more time taken up in recapping stuff we already seen when they finally get to it, 6 episodes later

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I gave up on the show a while ago.

I realised the only thing that kept me on it was Rukya, I absolutely loved her attitude and her relation with the red-haired superstar of the show (I actually burst myself laughing when he found out she was sleeping in his closet all along! :D :D :D ).

[The Real Nemo]

Do you mean "once the Soul Society arc starts" or "after the Soul Society arc ends"?
It's after, most people consider Soul Society to be Bleach's high point.

Even if shonen style fighting isn't really your thing I would suggest sticking with it at least until Soul Society is over, if only for the very (IMO) interesting story points that are coming up. Trust me none of the characters or storylines are going to be forgotten, and if you have the patience to stick with it it will be well worth your while in the end.

Oh and you don't have to worry about the Ichigo vs. Kenpachi fight dragging on any longer, it's basically over now. Even after the "full power" thing all they had was that one final clash.

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

Heh. I remember seeing a badge at one of the anime cons down here that read:

BLEACH: More fun to drink than to watch

[Sean Whitmore]

I gave up on the show a while ago.

I realised the only thing that kept me on it was Rukya, I absolutely loved her attitude and her relation with the red-haired superstar of the show (I actually burst myself laughing when he found out she was sleeping in his closet all along! :D :D :D ).


That was always my favorite part of the show too. I look back and realize that the show has split up its most interesting relationship for over 20 episodes now. That's an entire season! Imagine a season of Moonlighting where Maddie was kidnapped in the first episode and David spent 20 episodes trying to find her!


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Even if shonen style fighting isn't really your thing I would suggest sticking with it at least until Soul Society is over, if only for the very (IMO) interesting story points that are coming up. Trust me none of the characters or storylines are going to be forgotten, and if you have the patience to stick with it it will be well worth your while in the end.

That kind of fighting used to be my thing, back when I first got into anime. I honestly used to get a kick out of that, "Aha, I've only been playing with you up till now!" stuff. It's just that after a decade, it's mind-blowing to me that brand-new shows are getting away with the same old stuff.


SEAN

[Silver Knight]

Me personally I like the fights on bleach, Yes the zenpachi fight is a little long but cool.and come to think about it Bleach's fighting reminds me alot of DBZ, except the hero doesnt wait a whole season to powerup, which was the part I didnt like the most. The fights in bleach seem to move farly quickly, heck I peeked into the manga at a good section of eh Ichigo/Baraaka(Rukia's bro cant spell or pronouncie) fight and boy let me tell you, if you stop now you will be missing out. I cant wait to see Ichigo rise to that level of greatness. Bleach is quickly becoming one of my favorite anime's may even make my top ten, although that means Ill have to take out Fullmetal or Lupin but lets just see.

Oh one question I know the manga goes at least up untill 27, but anyone here know appoxamitly how many vol/episodes their are?

p.s. oh and Sean its only been 3 episodes the last 10 seconds of a show does not count and also you have to account for the Chad fight being mushed in their, AW my poor Chad get up and show them your strength!

[Alerex]

Oh one question I know the manga goes at least up untill 27, but anyone here know appoxamitly how many vol/episodes their are?


The anime episode I have is 131 right now. I think the manga is somewhere around chapter 250 or so.

[AnimeAvatar]

You mean someone didn't warn you?

I've heard it so many times that yes, Bleach's quality takes a nosedive after the Soul Society arc.

1) We all should have been warned. I started out reading the Manga and now watch the Anime while waiting for new books to be released. I realy wish there had been a disclaimer before the show. Something like, 'if your reading this, don't watch it at the same time'. I'm still watching though. It's not a conscious(sp?) thing. I just happened to have the T.V. on that channel.

It's after, most people consider Soul Society to be Bleach's high point.

Even if shonen style fighting isn't really your thing I would suggest sticking with it at least until Soul Society is over, if only for the very (IMO) interesting story points that are coming up. Trust me none of the characters or storylines are going to be forgotten, and if you have the patience to stick with it it will be well worth your while in the end.

Oh and you don't have to worry about the Ichigo vs. Kenpachi fight dragging on any longer, it's basically over now. Even after the "full power" thing all they had was that one final clash.

2) If the Anime follows the Manga then yes it's worth sticking with. I've caught a few glimpses of the later ep. and they were decent.
I think i will always wind up agreeing with you Nemo. We seem to think alike.

Heh. I remember seeing a badge at one of the anime cons down here that read:

BLEACH: More fun to drink than to watch

3) omg...that's twisted, but funny.


I want that badge.

[Alex L]

That kind of fighting used to be my thing, back when I first got into anime. I honestly used to get a kick out of that, "Aha, I've only been playing with you up till now!" stuff. It's just that after a decade, it's mind-blowing to me that brand-new shows are getting away with the same old stuff.


SEAN

It's always brand-new to somebody.

But the only-playing-with-you dealie is the exact reason I cannot stand the fights in Bleach -- and since they play such a prominent role, the reason I don't care for the series.

[Sean Whitmore]

I must admit, this week's reunion between Ichigo and Rukia went a ways toward rekindling my interest in the plot.


SEAN

[AnimeAvatar]

I agree, but it still was a bit off from the Manga...

Bleach will contintue to be in my viewing block for now. I shall reserve overall judgment until later as i have a feeling the Anime may get better soon.

[sehthan]

It's always brand-new to somebody.

But the only-playing-with-you dealie is the exact reason I cannot stand the fights in Bleach -- and since they play such a prominent role, the reason I don't care for the series.


Then don't read the manga past the Soul Society arc, where everybody's holding back their power and trying to screw with their opponents. It almost does for the old "Now I'll show you my true power!" gag what Agent Aika did for upskirt shots.

[KamenRaida]

In all honesty.... I consider BLEACH to be one of the worst pieces of crap I've ever seen. Sure, it isn't THE worst, but I still consider it so god-damn awful that I feel like barfing whenever my friend starts ranting about how awesome it is.

I loved BLEACH when it first started of. It actually looked like an interesting concept. And the characters actually looked like they had developement potential! Then, as many have already pointed out, Soul Society came....

BLEACH proved itself to me as a show built on set cliches, specifically Character cliches. I just couldn't stand half of the 'Captains' because they simplty felt like characters I've seen a hundred times before. Granted, it's absolutely impossible to create a show compeltely devoid of the occassional cliched character, but BLEACH just takes it to a whole new level.

Hell, the only two charachters I DON'T hate are cliches themselves (said charachters being Renji and Byakuya).

It doesn't help that the reasoning I recieve from quite alot of BLEACH fans just has me rolling my eyes. Taking me aforementioned friend for instance, who had been watching BLEACH alot longer than when I had. When I got to the Soul Society arc, I asked him what else was in store for BLEACH. Naturally, he began describing near every single fight that did happen in the Soul Society Arc.

Sadly, I'm not the type of guy that enjoys watching a show that's all flash, no story. So I enquired once again if there was anything besides those 'oh-so important fights'. His response:

'Oh, Ichigo gets a stronger Zanpakuto! Man, does't BLEACH have the best character developement?'

The sad thing is, he was absolutely serious with that comment. I've since attempted asking the opinions of others, but their reasonings are more or less just as superficial it seems.

'Ichigo's a friggin badass!'

'The guys on BLEACH are so cute!'

'Orihime has HUGE guns!'

.....Not to say that those were the only reasons I got. Some actually made sense to a degree (though unforutnately, the grounds on which they argued were more on the subject of personal taste than anything). Ultimately, I gave up on BLEACH by the end of Soul Society arc. Not even the plot twist of spoiler:Aizen going bad could get me to continue watching it.

There, I'm done. Now, to check out Hime's guns >.>

[The Real Nemo]

In all honesty.... I consider BLEACH to be one of the worst pieces of crap I've ever seen. Sure, it isn't THE worst, but I still consider it so god-damn awful that I feel like barfing whenever my friend starts ranting about how awesome it is.

I loved BLEACH when it first started of. It actually looked like an interesting concept. And the characters actually looked like they had developement potential! Then, as many have already pointed out, Soul Society came....

BLEACH proved itself to me as a show built on set cliches, specifically Character cliches. I just couldn't stand half of the 'Captains' because they simplty felt like characters I've seen a hundred times before. Granted, it's absolutely impossible to create a show compeltely devoid of the occassional cliched character, but BLEACH just takes it to a whole new level.

Hell, the only two charachters I DON'T hate are cliches themselves (said charachters being Renji and Byakuya).

It doesn't help that the reasoning I recieve from quite alot of BLEACH fans just has me rolling my eyes. Taking me aforementioned friend for instance, who had been watching BLEACH alot longer than when I had. When I got to the Soul Society arc, I asked him what else was in store for BLEACH. Naturally, he began describing near every single fight that did happen in the Soul Society Arc.

Sadly, I'm not the type of guy that enjoys watching a show that's all flash, no story. So I enquired once again if there was anything besides those 'oh-so important fights'. His response:

'Oh, Ichigo gets a stronger Zanpakuto! Man, does't BLEACH have the best character developement?'

The sad thing is, he was absolutely serious with that comment. I've since attempted asking the opinions of others, but their reasonings are more or less just as superficial it seems.

'Ichigo's a friggin badass!'

'The guys on BLEACH are so cute!'

'Orihime has HUGE guns!'

.....Not to say that those were the only reasons I got. Some actually made sense to a degree (though unforutnately, the grounds on which they argued were more on the subject of personal taste than anything). Ultimately, I gave up on BLEACH by the end of Soul Society arc. Not even the plot twist of spoiler:Aizen going bad could get me to continue watching it.

There, I'm done. Now, to check out Hime's guns >.>
All I can say is that you must be pretty jaded when it comes to anime to look at Bleach and all it's characters as one big cliche. True a lot of people feel that the story started to grow boring and repetitive after Soul Society ended, but as far and shonen fighting series go I thought that Bleach's Soul Society arc was one of the most interesting in terms of storyline and characters I've ever seen. This is speaking completely aside from the fight scenes and power increases although they, while not character development in and of themselves, can often accompany it in this case.

Also Aizen has since become one of my all time favorite anime villains.

[KamenRaida]

All I can say is that you must be pretty jaded when it comes to anime to look at Bleach and all it's characters as one big cliche. True a lot of people feel that the story started to grow boring and repetitive after Soul Society ended, but as far and shonen fighting series go I thought that Bleach's Soul Society arc was one of the most interesting in terms of storyline and characters I've ever seen. This is speaking completely aside from the fight scenes and power increases although they, while not character development in and of themselves, can often accompany it in this case.

Also Aizen has since become one of my all time favorite anime villains.

As I already pointed out, there's the whole 'personal taste' thing. I've come to the realization that I do in fact dislike Shonen in general and I do believe I'm also one of those 'weirdos', as my friend put it, that actually like Evangelion, so you can decide what you like about me from there.

I will admit though that Bleach's storyline isn't awful. At worst, I just don't care for it. It's just that the characters are so utterly dispicable to me that I just grew tired of it.

Although, I am curious as to what you consider 'interesting' about the charachters, within and after the events of the Soul Society arc. It'd probably be the same answers I get all the time, but different people have different views on situations and my ever-constant curiosity of what attracts people to Bleach does compel me to ask.

[The Real Nemo]

As I already pointed out, there's the whole 'personal taste' thing. I've come to the realization that I do in fact dislike Shonen in general and I do believe I'm also one of those 'weirdos', as my friend put it, that actually like Evangelion, so you can decide what you like about me from there.
I see. Well that's understandable I guess, I certainly wouldn't call you a weirdo for it. Personally I wasn't too into Eva, though I did like Asuka a lot.
I will admit though that Bleach's storyline isn't awful. At worst, I just don't care for it. It's just that the characters are so utterly dispicable to me that I just grew tired of it.

Although, I am curious as to what you consider 'interesting' about the charachters, within and after the events of the Soul Society arc. It'd probably be the same answers I get all the time, but different people have different views on situations and my ever-constant curiosity of what attracts people to Bleach does compel me to ask.
It's hard to put into words. Just something about the relationships between the different characters and their histories, and how those bonds come into play as events unfold in Soul Society. Like Rukia with Ichigo, Renji and Byakuya, and Hinamori with Aizen and Hitsugaya among others. Like you said though I suppose it is kind of a personal thing on my part that I find it interesting.

[sehthan]

It's hard to put into words. Just something about the relationships between the different characters and their histories, and how those bonds come into play as events unfold in Soul Society. Like Rukia with Ichigo, Renji and Byakuya, and Hinamori with Aizen and Hitsugaya among others. Like you said though I suppose it is kind of a personal thing on my part that I find it interesting.


That's a good point. One of the things I also find interesting about Bleach is that you get a real sense that there are long-standing relationships between the characters, and not just Ichigo and his friends. The relationships between the various Soul Society characters - the tensions between the captains, the friendships between the vice-captains, etc. - give a real sense of a living community, even if we only see it in little bits here and there. I do think the series does that well, but it does tend to get overshadowed when it's time for everyone to split up and have great big fights.

[Silver Knight]

And what the hell is wrong with great big epic sword fights? what is wrong with hime's big guns? Personally I was a little iffy on Rukia as a whole even before the Soul society arc, I just hope she gets a personality after this ordeal. And your telling me that after this Arc (im only on what AS has shown, will watch last saturdays tonight, please tell me Zaraki isnt dead) the fights get even bigger? Me personally I love action anime's. I dont need 20+ episodes of drama and charecter devolpment, give me cool charecters and great action, blend in a little comidec flair and im happy. Which Bleach does to a T. Also like I stated before its easy for one like me to get over the whole power struggle thing in fights because I grew up on it with DBZ. I admit at towards the end I found myslef not liking it as much in the Cell and Buu sagas but still. Bleach over comes that because unlike DBZ its not 3 episodes of charecters Grunting like their constipated and glaring at each other. They have Fights, stories, flashbacks, all at the same time, to pull you and keep your attention and on your toes untill the big fight. Tell me Im wrong? So I can stand it because I suffered through it before and know that they are doing much, much better.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

All I can say is watch Yu Yu Hakusho, this is just a cheap rippof. Bleach became to repetative after a while and got boring.

[Len Ikari145]

All I can say is watch Yu Yu Hakusho, this is just a cheap rippof. Bleach became to repetative after a while and got boring.

Other than then the fact that it deals with the concept of people with spiritual awareness, and the afterlife, how is it a rip-off?

[Crimson King]

All I can say is watch Yu Yu Hakusho, this is just a cheap rippof. Bleach became to repetative after a while and got boring.


That's like say Samurai Deeper Kyo manga is a ripoff of Rurouni Kenshin, or Ultraman is a ripoff of Superman.

[The Real Nemo]

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of people had the same complaints about YYH as the OP had about Bleach, just replace Soul Society with Dark Tournament. If anything the Dark Tournament was more constant fighting and less story compared to Soul Society.

[Len Ikari145]

It's also worth pointing out that a lot of people had the same complaints about YYH as the OP had about Bleach, just replace Soul Society with Dark Tournament. If anything the Dark Tournament was more constant fighting and less story compared to Soul Society.

Plus, Yu Yu Hakusho never had a central antagonist (it followed DBZ's structure of "one villain per saga"), or isn't as character nor plot-driven.

[Sean Whitmore]

That's like say Samurai Deeper Kyo manga is a ripoff of Rurouni Kenshin, or Ultraman is a ripoff of Superman.

It's not quite the same thing. Kenshin and Kyo just both belong to the samurai genre. Hakusho and Bleach both share the rather specific plot of "bad-tempered young boy from the human world comes into contact with an agent from the afterlife, specifically the section charged with hunting down demons and the like, and agrees to work with them, demonstrating hitherto unknown spiritual energy that surprises everyone."


SEAN

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

It's not quite the same thing. Kenshin and Kyo just both belong to the samurai genre. Hakusho and Bleach both share the rather specific plot of "bad-tempered young boy from the human world comes into contact with an agent from the afterlife, specifically the section charged with hunting down demons and the like, and agrees to work with them, demonstrating hitherto unknown spiritual energy that surprises everyone."


SEAN

Thank you :D

[Len Ikari145]

It's not quite the same thing. Kenshin and Kyo just both belong to the samurai genre. Hakusho and Bleach both share the rather specific plot of "bad-tempered young boy from the human world comes into contact with an agent from the afterlife, specifically the section charged with hunting down demons and the like, and agrees to work with them, demonstrating hitherto unknown spiritual energy that surprises everyone."


SEAN

Except Ichigo deals with Hollows, which are human spirits that are created from when either, A) They give in to their darker emotions or linger too long until their chains of Fate corrode; or B) they get eaten by other Hollows and are converted forcibly).

And other than those base elements you mentioned, it diverges rather differently in relation as to WHY said-heroes are so powerful, and their relationships with said-organization(hell, Ichigo isn't even officially an agent of Soul Society unlike Yusuke, who is specifically commissioned by Koenma, the lord of the Spirit Realm's son). While Soul Society was introduced an antagonistic entity(in reference to the current Rukia fiasco), Spirit World appeared more hospitable until the Chapter Black and Makai Kings saga,.

Not to mention what's going to come up soon involving the Aizen, Kaien, and Rukia connection

[sehthan]

It's not quite the same thing. Kenshin and Kyo just both belong to the samurai genre. Hakusho and Bleach both share the rather specific plot of "bad-tempered young boy from the human world comes into contact with an agent from the afterlife, specifically the section charged with hunting down demons and the like, and agrees to work with them, demonstrating hitherto unknown spiritual energy that surprises everyone."


SEAN


To nitpick a couple points:

Ichigo doesn't work for the Soul Society. He worked specifically with Rukia for a while, but it becomes clear that this was never officially sanctioned, and Ichigo later has to beat up about half the guys in Soul Society before they take him seriously and grudgingly accept him as a friendly outsider. His relationship with the agents of the afterlife is different than Yusuke's.

Also, hot-tempered young boys who display surprising strength are pretty common protagonists for Shonen series. Is Bleach a Ranma rip-off because it's about a hot-tempered prodigy who has to fight an increasingly colorful cast of characters to prove himself and occasionally to protect his friends/family?

[Len Ikari145]

To nitpick a couple points:

Ichigo doesn't work for the Soul Society. He worked specifically with Rukia for a while, but it becomes clear that this was never officially sanctioned, and Ichigo later has to beat up about half the guys in Soul Society before they take him seriously and grudgingly accept him as a friendly outsider. His relationship with the agents of the afterlife is different than Yusuke's.

Also, hot-tempered young boys who display surprising strength are pretty common protagonists for Shonen series. Is Bleach a Ranma rip-off because it's about a hot-tempered prodigy who has to fight an increasingly colorful cast of characters to prove himself and occasionally to protect his friends/family?

Thank YOU.;)

[Sean Whitmore]

Note, I'm not necessarily calling it a ripoff. Simply saying that:

Hakusho is to Bleach =/ Samurai Kyo is to Kenshin


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

To nitpick a couple points:

Ichigo doesn't work for the Soul Society. He worked specifically with Rukia for a while, but it becomes clear that this was never officially sanctioned, and Ichigo later has to beat up about half the guys in Soul Society before they take him seriously and grudgingly accept him as a friendly outsider. His relationship with the agents of the afterlife is different than Yusuke's.

Yes, nitpick was the right verb to use there. ;)


SEAN

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

Except Ichigo deals with Hollows, which are human spirits that are created from when either, A) They give in to their darker emotions or linger too long until their chains of Fate corrode; or B) they get eaten by other Hollows and are converted forcibly).

And other than those base elements you mentioned, it diverges rather differently in relation as to WHY said-heroes are so powerful, and their relationships with said-organization(hell, Ichigo isn't even officially an agent of Soul Society unlike Yusuke, who is specifically commissioned by Koenma, the lord of the Spirit Realm's son). While Soul Society was introduced an antagonistic entity(in reference to the current Rukia fiasco), Spirit World appeared more hospitable until the Chapter Black and Makai Kings saga,.

Not to mention what's going to come up soon involving the Aizen, Kaien, and Rukia connection


Hmm, and the hole get out of the hole before your soul chain eats itself thing, to grow your spirit power isn't similar to the eagg thing from YYHS.

Also his sidekicks, Carama = that big guy, The "at first anemy" but then an aly to usuke= he "at first anemy" but then an aly to Ichigo... Then the femenine Carama = to the chich with big knokkers, King Ky = the Cat lady....there are just so many damn similarity's!!!!

Even the Damn tower was done in YYHS! I mean c'mon, they had to get through the tower to resque someone....hmmmm!!!!!!!!

Bleach is a cheap ripoff of YYHS! I stand firm on my opinion.

[sehthan]

Yes, nitpick was the right verb to use there. ;)


SEAN


I won't deny it, but I think it illustrates an important point. If you boil Bleach and YYH down to a few core elements, yes, you can find some similarities to highlight. But the actual plots are very different.

[sehthan]

Hmm, and the hole get out of the hole before your soul chain eats itself thing, to grow your spirit power isn't similar to the eagg thing from YYHS.

Also his sidekicks, Carama = that big guy, The "at first anemy" but then an aly to usuke= he "at first anemy" but then an aly to Ichigo... Then the femenine Carama = to the chich with big knokkers, King Ky = the Cat lady....there are just so many damn similarity's!!!!

Even the Damn tower was done in YYHS! I mean c'mon, they had to get through the tower to resque someone....hmmmm!!!!!!!!

Bleach is a cheap ripoff of YYHS! I stand firm on my opinion.


I can't argue against your first example as I don't remember the scene in YYH you're referencing, but being able to compare two specific scenes in different shows hardly demonstrates one is wholly derivative of the other.

I can't say I see your character comparisons at all, and again, "first an emeny, then a friend" is extremely common in anime, and was hardly an innovation of YYH.

And, really, how many stories have involved rescuing someone from a tower? Gasp! YYH is a ripoff of Rapunzel!!!


Bleach isn't the most original story ever, but it's similarities to YYH are really shallow.

[Len Ikari145]

Hmm, and the hole get out of the hole before your soul chain eats itself thing, to grow your spirit power isn't similar to the eagg thing from YYHS.

Also his sidekicks, Carama = that big guy, The "at first anemy" but then an aly to usuke= he "at first anemy" but then an aly to Ichigo... Then the femenine Carama = to the chich with big knokkers, King Ky = the Cat lady....there are just so many damn similarity's!!!!

Even the Damn tower was done in YYHS! I mean c'mon, they had to get through the tower to resque someone....hmmmm!!!!!!!!

Bleach is a cheap ripoff of YYHS! I stand firm on my opinion.

First of all: No. Because the growth of the egg corresponds with Yusuke's deeds and his general sense of self, not his spirit power. If Yusuke was a truly evil person, his spirit beast would devour his soul and he would be cast into oblivion. His beast is essentially the personification of his soul. Becoming a hollow is a far different method since it doesn't really rely on any of those factors.

Secondly: the "big guy" is Chad. He was ALWAYS Ichigo's best friend(while Yusuke and Kuwabara were rivals/enemies). Unlike Kuwabara, the only time he fought was when he fought to protect someone( and up until he fought his first hollow, he allowed people to beat him up). He had a lousy childhood where he was violent, but his grandfather sent him straight looong before he met Ichigo.


Uryuu is the only one who fits your description.

And Orihime has a BLOODY crush on Ichigo, and is probably the LAST person to fight against him. How in the world did draw "rival or antagonist" from that? And Kurama certainly doesn't resemble Orihime in terms of personality nor ability (or even relationships for that matter).:eek:

And Yusuke and crew were going through the tower on assignment specifically to DEFEAT THE SAINT BEASTS. Keiko nor Botan were held captive. They didn't even know they were in any danger (which was within the city) until Yusuke reached Suzaku.

Yoruichi is as much as King Kai (where the hell did you get this from? I thought we were comparing Yu Yu Hakusho) as Urahara is. Urahara helped Ichigo awaken his own Shinigami powers(amongst other things that would be considered spoilerish), while Yoruichi trained the others with their powers and Yoruichi taught him how to use Bankai and Shunpo . They also play a far more active role in the series.

You've demonstrated that you either haven't watched any of Bleach and making crap up, or you've just starting NOW. Either way, your "info" is grossly inaccurate.

[Sean Whitmore]

I won't deny it, but I think it illustrates an important point. If you boil Bleach and YYH down to a few core elements, yes, you can find some similarities to highlight. But the actual plots are very different.

The other way to look at that is, if you focus on every minute difference between the X-Men's Wolverine and Cyberforce's Ripclaw, then yeah, it's possible to overlook that they're basically the same character.


SEAN

[KamenRaida]

It's hard to put into words. Just something about the relationships between the different characters and their histories, and how those bonds come into play as events unfold in Soul Society. Like Rukia with Ichigo, Renji and Byakuya, and Hinamori with Aizen and Hitsugaya among others. Like you said though I suppose it is kind of a personal thing on my part that I find it interesting.

Hmmm, fair enough. Personally, I don't see how said bonds actually help in the growth of individual characters. Not that I actually see most of the characters as 'actual characters' to begin with. But, like you put it, personal preference plays a strong part in this.

And what the hell is wrong with great big epic sword fights? what is wrong with hime's big guns? Personally I was a little iffy on Rukia as a whole even before the Soul society arc, I just hope she gets a personality after this ordeal. And your telling me that after this Arc (im only on what AS has shown, will watch last saturdays tonight, please tell me Zaraki isnt dead) the fights get even bigger? Me personally I love action anime's. I dont need 20+ episodes of drama and charecter devolpment, give me cool charecters and great action, blend in a little comidec flair and im happy. Which Bleach does to a T. Also like I stated before its easy for one like me to get over the whole power struggle thing in fights because I grew up on it with DBZ. I admit at towards the end I found myslef not liking it as much in the Cell and Buu sagas but still. Bleach over comes that because unlike DBZ its not 3 episodes of charecters Grunting like their constipated and glaring at each other. They have Fights, stories, flashbacks, all at the same time, to pull you and keep your attention and on your toes untill the big fight. Tell me Im wrong? So I can stand it because I suffered through it before and know that they are doing much, much better.

Again, this is personal preference waving its dirty little hand around. And, forgive me for being harsh, but I don't consider 'great big epic sword fights' a legible reason for liking any form of entertainment media.

And really, I consider Bleach to be one of those form of entertainment that capatilizes on the 'base instincts' of people. Specifically speaking, the love of a good fight, which involves alot of flash and 'pretty weapons'. Yes, I am generalizing here, but the basic idea is that it's high point seems to be the fights.

Again, I apoligize for being harsh on the matter, and I realize different people have different preferences. As I already stated, I'm not as big a fan of Shonen as I was around a year or so ago, and unfortunately, Bleach does seem to be the archtypical Shonen.

[Alex L]

Then don't read the manga past the Soul Society arc, where everybody's holding back their power and trying to screw with their opponents. It almost does for the old "Now I'll show you my true power!" gag what Agent Aika did for upskirt shots.

I did read the first part of post-SS.

That's what turned me off to Bleach -- but since I hear it's actually pretty good again, maybe I'll give it another shot. :)

And what the hell is wrong with great big epic sword fights? what is wrong with hime's big guns? Personally I was a little iffy on Rukia as a whole even before the Soul society arc, I just hope she gets a personality after this ordeal. And your telling me that after this Arc (im only on what AS has shown, will watch last saturdays tonight, please tell me Zaraki isnt dead) the fights get even bigger? Me personally I love action anime's. I dont need 20+ episodes of drama and charecter devolpment, give me cool charecters and great action, blend in a little comidec flair and im happy. Which Bleach does to a T. Also like I stated before its easy for one like me to get over the whole power struggle thing in fights because I grew up on it with DBZ. I admit at towards the end I found myslef not liking it as much in the Cell and Buu sagas but still. Bleach over comes that because unlike DBZ its not 3 episodes of charecters Grunting like their constipated and glaring at each other. They have Fights, stories, flashbacks, all at the same time, to pull you and keep your attention and on your toes untill the big fight. Tell me Im wrong? So I can stand it because I suffered through it before and know that they are doing much, much better.

I prefer my anime to be less popcorn-fare -- but that's just me. I dig stuff where I have to think a bit, whether it be a mystery or whether it be a bit more introspective in nature. Heck, on another forum I just got into a discussion about events in Hikaru no Go.

Hell, popcorn-fare does great in Hollywood and is a proven staple of shounen anime, so you're hardly alone in liking it.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

First of all: No. Because the growth of the egg corresponds with Yusuke's deeds and his general sense of self, not his spirit power. If Yusuke was a truly evil person, his spirit beast would devour his soul and he would be cast into oblivion. His beast is essentially the personification of his soul. Becoming a hollow is a far different method since it doesn't really rely on any of those factors.

Secondly: the "big guy" is Chad. He was ALWAYS Ichigo's best friend(while Yusuke and Kuwabara were rivals/enemies). Unlike Kuwabara, the only time he fought was when he fought to protect someone( and up until he fought his first hollow, he allowed people to beat him up). He had a lousy childhood where he was violent, but his grandfather sent him straight looong before he met Ichigo.


Uryuu is the only one who fits your description.

And Orihime has a BLOODY crush on Ichigo, and is probably the LAST person to fight against him. How in the world did draw "rival or antagonist" from that? And Kurama certainly doesn't resemble Orihime in terms of personality nor ability (or even relationships for that matter).:eek:

And Yusuke and crew were going through the tower on assignment specifically to DEFEAT THE SAINT BEASTS. Keiko nor Botan were held captive. They didn't even know they were in any danger (which was within the city) until Yusuke reached Suzaku.

Yoruichi is as much as King Kai (where the hell did you get this from? I thought we were comparing Yu Yu Hakusho) as Urahara is. Urahara helped Ichigo awaken his own Shinigami powers(amongst other things that would be considered spoilerish), while Yoruichi trained the others with their powers and Ichigo taught him how to use Bankai and Shunpo . They also play a far more active role in the series.

You've demonstrated that you either haven't watched any of Bleach and making crap up, or you've just starting NOW. Either way, your "info' is grossly inaccurate.

Well I watched 1-14, two episodes somewhere after that, and 42 ... So I was kindoff going off what I saw.

[Len Ikari145]

Well I watched 1-14, two episodes somewhere after that, and 42 ... So I was kindoff going off what I saw.

So, you've only watched 17 episodes (Alot of which you skipped around, missing a portion of the developing plot)?

You really need to watch it consistently to understand what Bleach's plot and characters are about.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

So, you've only watched 17 episodes (Alot of which you skipped around, missing a portion of the developing plot)?

You really need to watch it consistently to understand what Bleach's plot and characters are about.

Are there any DVD box sets out or something?

[MKTerra]

This image seemed topical, heh.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/9458/1184735997941rg8.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1184735997941rg8.jpg)

[The Real Nemo]

Not that I actually see most of the characters as 'actual characters' to begin with.
Well, now I'm curious. Since you don't seem to think Bleach has actual characters I'd kind of like to know what exactly is required in your point of view to make a character "real" to begin with. What do the series you like have that Bleach doesn't in that way?

[KamenRaida]

Well, now I'm curious. Since you don't seem to think Bleach has actual characters I'd kind of like to know what exactly is required in your point of view to make a character "real" to begin with. What do the series you like have that Bleach doesn't in that way?

Well, the thing is that Bleach is admittedly at a disadvantage, being a Shonen manga/anime and all. My preference is more to those series that offer tragic elements, and along with that tragic characters.

I would first of warn that this is a rant of sorts, and I will be quite careless with spoilers. Not that it matters as the series I will be referring to in here are over and done with, although there are quite alot of Bleach spoilers within as well.

To start of, I suppose I'll start out with someone whom I've found is quite disliked, even loathed, in general; Shinji Ikari. Yes, big shock I know. But, you see, the thing I do like about him is probably what everyone dislikes of him as well. That he's just a fragile little man, unable to bear the weights reality forces him to wear, and ultimately very nearly causes the extinction of everything around him.

The point I'm getting at here, is that I have a strong preference for 'flawed characters'. Yes, nearly every single character HAS flaws and Bleach is no exception, but I'm not talking about those minor flaws like just being a tad stupid or overindulging on any given object. I'm talking about the flaws that make the decision of whether the character will fail or not. And at times, the so-called flaw may indeed be that of others, that do end up effecting said character. But nevertheless, I find that with my more favourite characters, no matter what they do, no matter how hard they try, as inspirational and even heroic (subjectively speaking, of course) as they may be, they fail in their mission. Oh, it's not an absolute requirement, but those are the sort of characters I more or less hold in favor.

Oh, to be sure, tragic types aren't the only characters I've liked. I've had favourite characters that are quite a happy bunch. In truth, what I really look for is.... well, it's one of those things I'm not sure if I can use a word correctly for. Background? Atmosphere? Purpose? Not sure what to call it, but that makes all the difference of a bad character to a good character, in my opinion.

And, really it's the exact reason I've stated above that made me like Bleach in the first place. Be warned, that starting from now, THERE WILL BE BLEACH SPOILERS!!!!!

Okay, we all clear on that? Good.

I'm sure we all remember that evil rodent, Grand Fisher? The very Hollow that cut Mrs. Kurosaki's life short? Now, wasn't Ichigo a most disappointed lad when he found that little fact out? He gave it his all in order to carry out vengeance for the sake of his dear mother when battling Grand Fisher. Sure, he managed to injure the monster badly, but ultimately, he failed to do what he had set out to do.

Sure, some would compare this to how Aizen, Byakuya, or Kenpachi stomped Ichigo. But there's a difference between those battles and the one with Grand Fisher. With Grand Fisher, he WAS putting EVERYTHING he had in him to see to it that his enemy was pounded to dust! With the three I mentioned, he was fighting them simply 'because he had to'. There wasn't the intensity he had against Grand Fisher. The feeling of a man fighting a battle using everything his body could offer and more was just absent. There was no character behind the fight. It was just two men fighting each other.

Which brings us back to Bleach it's cast as a whole. I'll admit I had been too harsh in my earlier post. That is, Byakuya and Renji certainly aren't the only two characters I do like. The ones that do immediately come to mind after those two would be Pre-Soul Society Ichigo, Tousen, Soi Fon, and if what I'm hearing from other is correct (and I've been provided with enough visual evidence to be fairly certain of it), Orihime

So, I suppose we'd need to look at what I actually do see in said characters. Of course that'd be just a little too time consuming so I'll just focus on Renji and Orihime.

Now, Renji, he's the character that doesn't exactly HAVE a flaw per se, but rather he is living in a flawed world so to speak. Then again, that isn't even really the best way to describe what I find so likable about him. In reality the world of Bleach isn't that flawed. I suppose he does some what fit into the category of 'non-flawed characters' I like. If anything, he's very similar to Pre-Soul Society Ichigo.

Let's look at his fight with Byakuya and Ichigo. In both instances he, very much like Ichigo, was putting everything he had into the fight! He was doing all of this for a woman he loved, and for whom he felt responsible for everything that had been happening to her as of late! But, as strong as his feelings were, he had nothing else to save him. In both instances, he could very easily have been KILLED! Which, was a very different case in Ichigo's battle with Grand Fisher where it more or less could have been said to have ended in a tie. Renji flat out lost in both his battle against Byakuya and Ichigo! By far, I consider Renji the best part of Bleach.

Orihime was someone I admittedly despised at first. The 'Fanservice character'. Her existence was merely to cater to the needs of the male viewers, and thus her personality suffered as a whole being the typical 'not-too-bright' female. While I honestly didn't think she was as fixed to her stereotype as most of the other cast were, it was the fact that she seemed to hold no purpose other than to wave those jugs around that pissed me off. Hell, there wasn't even anything foreshadowing she HAD a purpose.

Of course, from what I've heard Orihime actually is gaining a purpose of sorts. And what ho, she seems to habor rather touching feelings to Mr. Kurosaki (I'll admit, I'm not as much of a prick as I usually am when it comes to anything with romantic subtexts)! So, now, she actually does seem to HAVE personality, and I just can't find it in me to hate her as I did (granted, her going to Huenco Mendo or whatever is as far as I got, and I may just be forced to go back to my grumpy personality should she return to her klutzy ways).

So, there you have it! Honestly, I think one of the main problems I have with Bleach is that they don't really have anything much in terms of background/ atmosphere/purpose/whatever to keep me interested in them. And is it just me, or does Tite Kubo WAY overuse the 'I'm a Bad Boy' archtype. Let's see who have under that list: Ichigo, Renji, Ganjyu, Kenpachi, Ikkaku.

Those are the ones I can come up with at the moment, though honestly, anything more than 3 or 4 charachters under the same archtype SMELLS LIKE BAD SPIRITS to me.

Yes, I couldn't help making that small reference. I repeat, the earlier episodes/chapters of Bleach RULED!

[Silver Knight]

Well I watched 1-14, two episodes somewhere after that, and 42 ... So I was kindoff going off what I saw.

14? comon what the hell, im not quite sure but isnt that like the very start of the SS arc? I dont think they really did much then. And then you skip ahead all the way to 42? You basically missed everything that was a filler and back story to what will happen, heck you missed the Ichigo-Zarki fight, you missed him fighting Renji (although it really wasnt the greatest fight, it showed some deapth.You missed everything. You even missed Naked Youroichi in 41 (well you dont see much but still her human form is the Hottest thing I have ever seen!) If you can go on youtube and watch 42 already why dont you go back and watch some more before complaining about faults that you think are their. *side note with the constant spoliers I cant help it can someone help me get links to Bleach on youtube?*

Also this whole comparsion to YYH is meritless. I have to admit When the Bleach Manga came out a couple of years ago in the US, Shows like Shaman King and YYH where fresh on my mind so I went bah, based because I thought it was a rip-off Idea, as well as I didnt know it even had action untill I went to a con that year and even then I was like so what. The more I herad the more I paid attention and then I watched intently the first episode, and after that if I could go back in time I'd slap myself for ever thinking what I did about it. Bleach distingushies itself with a huge cast of likeable and unique charecters(I dont really see steryotpyes some people talk about, heck his only rival is Byukuya and that wont last long)

Also anyone here think Uryu is a total wuss? oh wow he beat that one adjadent "air something" thats really not that hard, Chad pwned his, their all above that level, cept Ganju. I mean he could be doing some major ass-kicking consider he's got a huge axe to grind but he runs and hids making sure all the pressure goes to Chad and Ichigo.

[Sean Whitmore]

14? comon what the hell, im not quite sure but isnt that like the very start of the SS arc? I dont think they really did much then. And then you skip ahead all the way to 42? You basically missed everything that was a filler and back story to what will happen, heck you missed the Ichigo-Zarki fight, you missed him fighting Renji (although it really wasnt the greatest fight, it showed some deapth.You missed everything. You even missed Naked Youroichi in 41 (well you dont see much but still her human form is the Hottest thing I have ever seen!) If you can go on youtube and watch 42 already why dont you go back and watch some more before complaining about faults that you think are their. *side note with the constant spoliers I cant help it can someone help me get links to Bleach on youtube?*

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here...are you saying that watching 14 episodes of a program isn't enough to fairly judge whether or not someone likes it?

Also this whole comparsion to YYH is meritless.

Not so much, no.


SEAN

[Len Ikari145]

Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly here...are you saying that watching 14 episodes of a program isn't enough to fairly judge whether or not someone likes it?




SEAN

No, but the accusations of it just being a cheap rip-off of YHH lack a little cohesion and are somewhat baseless.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

14? comon what the hell, im not quite sure but isnt that like the very start of the SS arc? I dont think they really did much then. And then you skip ahead all the way to 42? You basically missed everything that was a filler and back story to what will happen, heck you missed the Ichigo-Zarki fight, you missed him fighting Renji (although it really wasnt the greatest fight, it showed some deapth.You missed everything. You even missed Naked Youroichi in 41 (well you dont see much but still her human form is the Hottest thing I have ever seen!) If you can go on youtube and watch 42 already why dont you go back and watch some more before complaining about faults that you think are their. *side note with the constant spoliers I cant help it can someone help me get links to Bleach on youtube?*

Also this whole comparsion to YYH is meritless. I have to admit When the Bleach Manga came out a couple of years ago in the US, Shows like Shaman King and YYH where fresh on my mind so I went bah, based because I thought it was a rip-off Idea, as well as I didnt know it even had action untill I went to a con that year and even then I was like so what. The more I herad the more I paid attention and then I watched intently the first episode, and after that if I could go back in time I'd slap myself for ever thinking what I did about it. Bleach distingushies itself with a huge cast of likeable and unique charecters(I dont really see steryotpyes some people talk about, heck his only rival is Byukuya and that wont last long)

Also anyone here think Uryu is a total wuss? oh wow he beat that one adjadent "air something" thats really not that hard, Chad pwned his, their all above that level, cept Ganju. I mean he could be doing some major ass-kicking consider he's got a huge axe to grind but he runs and hids making sure all the pressure goes to Chad and Ichigo.

Well I did watch some episodes in between, and some of them do look interesting, but I don't have cable so I only watch it at my cousins house :(
And since the DVD box sets are not out, I don't know how I can catch up.

Also I have seen episode 41 and 42, where that cat lady gets awesome.

[MaxofSteel]

I feel like I'm in the minority here but from what I've seen of the series thus far (pretty much everything Adult Swim has aired) I'm liking the series more and more.

The Soul Society arc seems more interesting to me than pretty much any episode leading up to it. I've also watched a decent amount of YYH enough to find similarities between the two, although I still find both very enjoyable.

The slow pace of the series and the constant speeches between characters isn't new to me either. I was a huge fan of Dragon Ball Z for a long time and stuff like that happened almost all the time. I still love DBZ mind you.

[KamenRaida]

I feel like I'm in the minority here but from what I've seen of the series thus far (pretty much everything Adult Swim has aired) I'm liking the series more and more.


That's cuz this is more or less the 'Bleach Hate' thread. I trust that the Bleach=Awesome won't be making you feel that you're in the minority as much.

[MaxofSteel]

That's cuz this is more or less the 'Bleach Hate' thread. I trust that the Bleach=Awesome won't be making you feel that you're in the minority as much.

*Finds that thread*

Ah true, true.

(I don't visit this forum all that often :o ).

[Sean Whitmore]

That's cuz this is more or less the 'Bleach Hate' thread.

Technically, it started as a "convince me not to hate Bleach" thread.

It just seems like a hate thread now because no one's managed to do so.


SEAN

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

Technically, it started as a "convince me not to hate Bleach" thread.

It just seems like a hate thread now because no one's managed to do so.


SEAN

Sorry, I think I started all this hatred, my bad :o

[AnimeAvatar]

This image seemed topical, heh.

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/9458/1184735997941rg8.th.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1184735997941rg8.jpg)

That is bizzare(and kinda funny), and is a seriously good example of what has become partly the main topic of conversation on this thread.

I feel like I'm in the minority here but from what I've seen of the series thus far (pretty much everything Adult Swim has aired) I'm liking the series more and more.

The Soul Society arc seems more interesting to me than pretty much any episode leading up to it. I've also watched a decent amount of YYH enough to find similarities between the two, although I still find both very enjoyable.

The slow pace of the series and the constant speeches between characters isn't new to me either. I was a huge fan of Dragon Ball Z for a long time and stuff like that happened almost all the time. I still love DBZ mind you.

IMO,(watching on AS too), BLEACH is a decent enough series to still find somewhat interesting at the moment. Yes i can see the resemblence between it and YYH, but that is realy only visible if you take away the main traits of the two stories. The plot skeletons, per say, of the two are fairly simmilar but alot of Anime/Manga have the same basic structures. There are still visible differences though.

The example of Deeper Kyo=Kenshin makes sense if you strip them to the basic plot skeletons. Again, even then there are lots of differences. For example Kyo had amnesia(of sorts), Kenshin didn't.


I liked DBZ too... the one thing that got to me was the fact they would spend whole ep. just yelling, screaming, and powering up. Not dising it just saying it got a little old... i still watch... once in a while...

Technically, it started as a "convince me not to hate Bleach" thread.

It just seems like a hate thread now because no one's managed to do so.
SEAN

I don't think it turned out so much as a "hate thread" as it did a "why does it suck for him but that dude loves it?" kinda thing...

[notyetbreathing]

i was so prepared to debunk any negative comments about this anime because it is one of the best, but then i took a breath and let the fanboy in me calm down a bit because a lot of complaints are warranted. it is definately very formulated and is a lot like DBZ in the sense that is is fight-lose-train-fight-win-wash-rinse-repeat. but i think that is the basic formula in just about any anime and, if its done well, is not a negative aspect.

my biggest problem is the silly filler arcs such as the arc after the soul society arc with the 3 stupid mod souls and the bounto arc after that. but once you get through that garbage and get back into the main Aizen plotline with the Arrancar and Vaizards, it really starts to pick up and kick major ass with Ichigo turning into a Hollow, finding out his dad was a Soul Society Captain and Ishida's dad still being a quincy and helping Ishida get his powers back. i love this show

[Eliseu Gouveia]

i fight-lose-train-fight-win-wash-rinse-repeat. but i think that is the basic formula in just about any anime

Well, that´s shonen anime for you.