Why do we need any continuity in the next movie with the older ones?

[Captain Smith]

Let's be real. Superman Returns stunk because of its weird tie into to past movies, Supes stalking Baby Supes, and funny Luthor. It had some decent action but not enough.

The world knows Supes' back story. Just start anew with Supes at the Planet, Lois clueless as to Clark and have a plot centered on Supes vs. some decent villians.

Leave the soap opera out of it. If you want, have some classic Lois desiring Supes but that's it. Make it like the old cartoons. Supes saves Miss Lane and is mildly amused by her interest.

I fear the next movie will try to resolve the superbaby and Lois/Cyclops triangle and waste screen time on romantic drama many won't care about. This is especially true as the drama is out of comic continuity. The Spidey and FF romance fits in their continuity and is integral to the character. This movie trend came out of left field and adds nothing to it.

[The Confessor]

I fear the next movie will try to resolve the superbaby and Lois/Cyclops triangle and waste screen time on romantic drama many won't care about. This is especially true as the drama is out of comic continuity. The Spidey and FF romance fits in their continuity and is integral to the character. This movie trend came out of left field and adds nothing to it.

Well, just for the record I loved Superman Returns and it's ties to the earlier films. But in response to your specific point above...

You would do well to remember that comic fans probably only make up about 5% (if that!) of the total audience that any superhero film is trying to attract. There are many, many people who enjoy superhero films that haven't had any prior contact with the characters featured in the films in their comic book form. The movie companies who finance these films couldn't really give a hoot for the wishes and desires of the comic reading faithful (ie. people like us on these boards). We're a drop in the ocean of the potential audience for their films.

What the big movie making corporations (and perhaps to a lesser extent the movie directors themselves) want is a film that will appeal to a wide demographic of movie goers. That being the case, they're not gonna care too much whether a movie is strictly true to comic book continuity or not. After all, most people who will see the film couldn't care less about comic book continuity. They just wanna see an entertaining, well crafted film with some action, some romance & some good dialogue in it.

It's harsh, I know. But that's the reality of the situation I'm afraid. Deal with it! ;)

By the way, the Spider-Man romance is somewhat changed from the comic books too. As are many other aspects of the films. So, it's not just something that Superman films suffer from.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Let's be real. Superman Returns stunk because of its weird tie into to past movies, Supes stalking Baby Supes, and funny Luthor. It had some decent action but not enough.

The world knows Supes' back story. Just start anew with Supes at the Planet, Lois clueless as to Clark and have a plot centered on Supes vs. some decent villians.

Leave the soap opera out of it. If you want, have some classic Lois desiring Supes but that's it. Make it like the old cartoons. Supes saves Miss Lane and is mildly amused by her interest.

I fear the next movie will try to resolve the superbaby and Lois/Cyclops triangle and waste screen time on romantic drama many won't care about. This is especially true as the drama is out of comic continuity. The Spidey and FF romance fits in their continuity and is integral to the character. This movie trend came out of left field and adds nothing to it.


Agreed, Singer got the franchise stuck with the Superbaby and the Cyclops/Lois problem and now we´ve yet to endure another film with wasted screentime trying to defuse that piece of fecal matter instead of giving us what we´ve always wanted from the get-go: all-out superhero action, fun and excitement.

Superbaby is annoying.
Funny Lex is painful.
Superman stalking the Lane/White couple is creepy.
Superman lifting a kryptonite island with a shard of kryptonite on his side is stupid.
Superman in the hospital between life and death for 20 minutes when everybody already knows he won´t die is boring.

None of that is either fun or exciting.

And the suit, the brown cape, brown boots and brown speedos suck.

[PretenderNX01]

They just wanna see an entertaining, well crafted film with some action, some romance & some good dialogue in it.

It's harsh, I know. But that's the reality of the situation I'm afraid. Deal with it! ;)
You left it wide open for me to say:
Superman Returns was not a well crafted film with its depiction of action, romance and dialog. Deal with it.

What dialog was good? Anything memorable?

I happen to love the Chris Reeve films and think where singer went wrong was in aping parts of their story superficially but leaving out all of the heart and soul of the Kidder/Reeve romance. Lois seemed like nothing anyone let alone Kal-El would be attracted to in Superman Returns.

And Singers changes to the mythos- brown capes, "Truth Justice and other stuff"- were where many outside of comic book fandom complained more than we geeks did.


By the way, the Spider-Man romance is somewhat changed from the comic books too. As are many other aspects of the films. So, it's not just something that Superman films suffer from.
Except that Spider-Man didn't suffer from its changes, neither did Batman Returns or even Singer's two X-Men films.

Spidey never spidey-stalked Mary Jane and her spider-baby she was claiming was actually Brand Newcharacter's child. Doc Oc didn't get away at the end and escape to some island. And Spider-man had a costume of red and blue.

[karasu]

Going with a psuedo sequel was their biggest mistake in my opinion. It was only there because Bryan Singer was hired to direct the films and he's pretty much clueless about this stuff.


The movie companies who finance these films couldn't really give a hoot for the wishes and desires of the comic reading faithful (ie. people like us on these boards). We're a drop in the ocean of the potential audience for their films.

If the movie industry doesn't care what we think, than that's just further proof of their idiocy. The well received comic book films are the ones that care about what the fans have to say. We [i]are the built in audience after all. Please the fans and the positive word of mouth will be huge. Look at Spiderman, and Batman Begins. They were both handled by directors who cared immensely about the fans and the spirit of the source material. It's no coincidence that they were all well received by both critics and audiences alike. You can throw Harry Potter in there too.

I've said it a million times and I'll say it again. I can't stand the Superman movies because so far they've missed the point of the books completely. Oh sure, they get the surface level stuff right. Sure he flies. He wears a costume and that blasted curl. But as far as who he is, how he handles conflicts, and how he relates to people; it's all wrong. In the movies he is quite literally the most powerful man in the world, yet for some reason he's the biggest wimp you'll ever meet.

Screw that. It's a new day man. It's time for these features to be treated with fanboy care. With Batman Begins, Spiderman, and even the 300, every detail may not be exact but you can definitely see the love. Treatment like that is the future. Give me a movie about Superman. Not Jesus, not Clay Aiken.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

And Singers changes to the mythos- brown capes, "Truth Justice and other stuff"- were where many outside of comic book fandom complained more than we geeks did.

And what's the deal with that phrase? What's so important about it? Why does the phrase "truth, justice, all that stuff" hurt some people so much?

[karasu]

I don't understand that either. It's not a traditional saying, and it doesn't even make sense.

[itsyaboy]

And what's the deal with that phrase? What's so important about it? Why does the phrase "truth, justice, all that stuff" hurt some people so much?

Because almost everyone knows it's "truth, justice, and the American way". When they replaced "American way" with "other stuff" it felt a bit unpatriotic IMO. It was like they were saying that the "american way" wasn't important to the character anymore so they could just leave it out.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I have to confess "Truth, Justice and the american way" always sounded awkward to me.

Superman is supposed to be the champion of ALL mankind, not just one counry.

<- braces self for incoming wave of ultra-nationalism :rolleyes:

[itsyaboy]

I have to confess "Truth, Justice and the american way" always sounded awkward to me.

Superman is supposed to be the champion of ALL mankind, not just one counry.

<- braces self for incoming wave of ultra-nationalism :rolleyes:

Well that's true, especially in modern comics. But look at the old movies, tv shows, and comic books, ......and it's always been "truth, justice, and the American Way". People grew up on that stuff, and to hear it altered in that manner in the movie.....well it sounded wrong to me and probably other people.

[Black Atom]

And what's the deal with that phrase? What's so important about it? Why does the phrase "truth, justice, all that stuff" hurt some people so much?

It signifies everything that's wrong with Superman Returns. It soulessly apes elements of Donner's movie, while at the same time treating the core ideals with irreverence. It seems like Donner's agenda was to use the stiff from the previous movies to capture our attention, then throw in radical new elements to remind us that this ain't our father's Superman. It's fine if he didn't think the "American Way" line was relevant--but including it and changing it sends a very clear message.

[karasu]

Because almost everyone knows it's "truth, justice, and the American way". When they replaced "American way" with "other stuff" it felt a bit unpatriotic IMO. It was like they were saying that the "american way" wasn't important to the character anymore so they could just leave it out.

Since when was Superman political? That is not one of his core ideals. It's a relic from TV show of the 50's. It's outdated and it doesn't even suit the character's actions. The ORIGINAL line was 'The never-ending fight for Truth and Justice". Screw Patriotism/Nationalism. It's divisive.

[JoeK32880]

Spidey never spidey-stalked Mary Jane and her spider-baby she was claiming was actually Brand Newcharacter's child. Doc Oc didn't get away at the end and escape to some island. And Spider-man had a costume of red and blue.

That's an awesome name.

I just read Superman Chronicles 1 and Golden Age Superman is my new favorite character. He doesn't have godlike powers and he's a huge bully. When he decides something's right, he does everything he can to get it done, regardless of what the law or anyone else thinks.

I want a movie about that Superman.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I don't understand that either. It's not a traditional saying, and it doesn't even make sense.

Because almost everyone knows it's "truth, justice, and the American way". When they replaced "American way" with "other stuff" it felt a bit unpatriotic IMO. It was like they were saying that the "american way" wasn't important to the character anymore so they could just leave it out.

I have to confess "Truth, Justice and the american way" always sounded awkward to me.

Superman is supposed to be the champion of ALL mankind, not just one counry.

<- braces self for incoming wave of ultra-nationalism :rolleyes:

It signifies everything that's wrong with Superman Returns. It soulessly apes elements of Donner's movie, while at the same time treating the core ideals with irreverence. It seems like Donner's agenda was to use the stiff from the previous movies to capture our attention, then throw in radical new elements to remind us that this ain't our father's Superman. It's fine if he didn't think the "American Way" line was relevant--but including it and changing it sends a very clear message.

I agree with Eliseu and karasu, and disagree with the rest of you guys.

Please, let's stop here for a moment and examine the phrase, shall we?

"Truth, Justice and the AMERICAN Way". As karasu stated, this phrase, as it was written by me in this paragraph, is DIVISIVE. It excludes completely the rest of mankind from what Superman is and represents.

What Superman represents (goodness, justice, truth, compassion, et cetera) is not something created in the US, nor it's this country's exclusive property. The values Superman represents are, to put it simply, the good side of the ENTIRE HUMANKIND.

Superman was created in Ohio, yes, but it is known by everyone here that he's EARTH'S GREATEST CHAMPION. He's not the US' greatest champion. Superman loves EARTH as a whole, and he doesn't have any preference for one country or the other. You will see him saving someone in the US at one moment, and the next you will see him in Africa helping people.

I think it's selfish to say that Singer isn't patriotic just because Perry White didn't say "the American Way", saying "all that stuff" instead. The clear message that Singer, Dougherty and Harris sent - IMHO - with this is that they know that Superman belongs to the entire planet, and not to the United States alone.

Superman is Earth's protector, and not US/Metropolis' protector.

[witchboy]

I thought the superbaby was a bad idea , as was having Supes be the other man in the middle of Lois's new family .
I also thought Lois was miscast . I liked the rest of the cast , but Lois lacked the spirit and spunk that all the other Lois's have had ( Margot Kidder ,Teri Hatcher , Erica Durance , Dana Delaney , etc) .
I thought the new Supes and Luther were great , they really captured the spirit of the CR movies , and brought something new to the roles as well. Parker Posey was awesome , as always.

[JoeK32880]

Parker Posey and Kate Bosworth should've traded roles.

[The Batman]

I agree with Eliseu and karasu, and disagree with the rest of you guys.

Please, let's stop here for a moment and examine the phrase, shall we?

"Truth, Justice and the AMERICAN Way". As karasu stated, this phrase, as it was written by me in this paragraph, is DIVISIVE. It excludes completely the rest of mankind from what Superman is and represents.

What Superman represents (goodness, justice, truth, compassion, et cetera) is not something created in the US, nor it's this country's exclusive property. The values Superman represents are, to put it simply, the good side of the ENTIRE HUMANKIND.

Superman was created in Ohio, yes, but it is known by everyone here that he's EARTH'S GREATEST CHAMPION. He's not the US' greatest champion. Superman loves EARTH as a whole, and he doesn't have any preference for one country or the other. You will see him saving someone in the US at one moment, and the next you will see him in Africa helping people.

I think it's selfish to say that Singer isn't patriotic just because Perry White didn't say "the American Way", saying "all that stuff" instead. The clear message that Singer, Dougherty and Harris sent - IMHO - with this is that they know that Superman belongs to the entire planet, and not to the United States alone.

Superman is Earth's protector, and not US/Metropolis' protector.

Good points. I didn't think twice about "... and all that other stuff" either.

Also, wasn't either Seigel or Shuster kinda Canadian?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Good points. I didn't think twice about "... and all that other stuff" either.

Also, wasn't either Seigel or Shuster kinda Canadian?

Thank you.

And I don't remember about those two being Canadian. I'll have to find out.

EDIT: According to IMDB.com Jerry Siegel (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0796950/) was born in Cleveland, and Joe Shuster (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0795975/) in Toronto.

[witchboy]

Parker Posey and Kate Bosworth should've traded roles.

I agree that Parker Posey would have made a very interesting Lois . PP is a fantastic actress and even in her bit part in SR she was fabulous .
I wouldn't have wasted the role of Lex's mistress/ henchwoman on KB .
I think Meg Tilly would 've been great there , especially since she seems like she'd be more his type ( Thinking back , Gene Hackman 's mistress was of a similar type ) and Meg Tilly is also a fabulous comedian who also would 've shined in that role , and physically is more suited to what's expected of the part .

[CBikle]

Leave the soap opera out of it. If you want, have some classic Lois desiring Supes but that's it. Make it like the old cartoons. Supes saves Miss Lane and is mildly amused by her interest.

Originally, Jude Law as General Zod was supposed to be in Superman Returns, but Jude repeatedly turned Singer down, who eventually just decided to write Jude/Zod out of the movie. The movie definitely needed a better fight scene than the Oz-style prison beating that Supes got.

I fear the next movie will try to resolve the superbaby and Lois/Cyclops triangle and waste screen time on romantic drama many won't care about. This is especially true as the drama is out of comic continuity. The Spidey and FF romance fits in their continuity and is integral to the character. This movie trend came out of left field and adds nothing to it.

The MJ-Peter romance was a huge part of the success of the Spider-Man movies; Raimi found the perfect formula.

Also, as much as people didn't care for most of SR, Richard White was largely well-liked by audiences and one of the few aspects of the movie that worked.

The Lois-Clark-Superman-Lana-Lori Lemaris-etc soap opera stuff has been part of the Superman mythos since the 50's when Mort Weisinger implemented it in the books. It's not unreasonable to see the romance stuff reflected in the movies, provided it doesn't throw of the pace of the movie and take away from the action.

[CBikle]

Because almost everyone knows it's "truth, justice, and the American way". When they replaced "American way" with "other stuff" it felt a bit unpatriotic IMO. It was like they were saying that the "american way" wasn't important to the character anymore so they could just leave it out.

I think that line was changed so that the movie would be more marketable overseas and trying to avoid the current anti-Americanism in Europe and elsewhere.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Speaking of Cyclops, I think a movie has a serious problem when the audiences sympathise more with the hero´s rival than with the hero himself.

[JoeK32880]

The problem isn't with Richard White and love triangles, it's with the kid and how it screws with the Superman character for the future. I mean, if they did four Superman movies would he be flying around with a teenage kid sidekick? That's nuts.

Plus, since Richard raises the kid and is with Lois, it makes Superman look like a real jackass if he ends up with Lois anyway.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Prob now is that if they kill off Cykes, they´ll be killing a real stand-up guy.

If they turn him into a prick to give Lois an excuse to dump him, we´ve got a cop-out.
if they kill superbaby, we´ll feel like jerks because nobody wants to see a child die.

If they keep this charade, we´ll feel betrayed seeing Lois sleeping with him when everybody knows she´s Supes´girl.

Whichever way they take, everybody loses.

Thanks, Singer.

[The Batman]

I still don't understand how Richard White is a more sympathetic, more heroic, or more likable character than Superman.

[Captain Smith]

He legitimately was involved with Lois on a good faith basis. Didn't know that she was carrying such a flame for Supes. Also, who needs to deal with a super-psycho-stalker.

So is Clark using his X-ray vision to watch them in bed now? That's the creepy thing the movies seems to lead to.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Let's be real. Superman Returns stunk because of its weird tie into to past movies, Supes stalking Baby Supes, and funny Luthor. It had some decent action but not enough.


I disagree.

Superman Returns didn't stink because of anything to do with its love affair with the Donner films, it stunk because it was two and a half hours of boredom and disappointment puntuated by twenty minutes of awesomeness.

[The Confessor]

You left it wide open for me to say:
Superman Returns was not a well crafted film with its depiction of action, romance and dialog. Deal with it.

What dialog was good? Anything memorable?

Well, that's just a matter of personal taste, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

But I feel you've missed my point slightly, my remark about cinema audiences wanting well crafted films with romance, action and good dialogue was just a general comment about the expectations of the movie going public. I wasn't specifically referring to Superman Returns as an example of these things.

[The Batman]

He legitimately was involved with Lois on a good faith basis. Didn't know that she was carrying such a flame for Supes. Also, who needs to deal with a super-psycho-stalker.

So is Clark using his X-ray vision to watch them in bed now? That's the creepy thing the movies seems to lead to.

Where in the film was Superman a psycho, a stalker, or watching anyone in bed with his X-Ray vision?

Sure, Richard is, from what we've seen of him, a likable, good guy. I think it's great that Singer, Dougherty, and Harris didn't just play him as the jerk and make everything easy for everybody.

I just fail to understand why Richard being likable means that Superman becomes somehow less likable.

[Black Atom]

I think it's selfish to say that Singer isn't patriotic just because Perry White didn't say "the American Way", saying "all that stuff" instead. The clear message that Singer, Dougherty and Harris sent - IMHO - with this is that they know that Superman belongs to the entire planet, and not to the United States alone.


But it didn't send that message at all. The line just reminds us that what's SUPPOSED to go there is "the American Way". They could've easily added a line ingratiating Superman with the global community and left this line out altogether. All this line does is pander to a culture in which its popular to hate America. It's that sort of hip cynicism that made Superman Returns suck to begin with.

[Black Atom]

I just fail to understand why Richard being likable means that Superman becomes somehow less likable.

Superman being unlikeable has nothing to do with Richard, really. Let's see.

-First, he abandons Earth, and Lois--a woman he claims to love--without even saying goodbye because he thinks he's found a trace of Krypton. Usually, people leave without saying goodbye when they don't expect to return, which means Supes expected to find a bunch of Kryptonians out there and would've been perfectly cool to leave Earth behind in favor of hanging with them instead.
-Unfortunately for Superman, there ARE no Kryptonians out there, so he decides to come back to his adopted planet and expects to be welcomed with open arms by the world and the woman he abandoned. He mopes and feels sorry for himself because he feels so isolated, even though it was he that left his mother, Lois and Earth behind for a chance to find people he has no real emotional connection with.
-Superman tries to make a move on Lois, knowing she's in a committed relationship with a man and has a kid. Odd, he was willing to abandon her completely five years ago.
-We find out Lois' kid is Superman's. Now, I'm not sure how long it normally takes women to discover they're pregnant, but let's long ball it and say a month. So, within a month of sleeping with Lois, Superman left Earth without even saying goodbye to her. Burn.

Richard, OTOH, has been a good boyfriend and dedicated father to a boy that ain't even his. He also saved Superman's life at great risk to his own. Furthermore, he's competing for a girl with Superman, which makes him a lot more sympathetic.

[Will.S]

Prob now is that if they kill off Cykes, they´ll be killing a real stand-up guy.
I actually don't mind this at all as long as he went out a hero.

They can have Richard and Clark good friends alongside Jimmy and Perry in the sequel. Then Richard does something like saving Lois and the kid from Metallo or Braniac and sacrificing himself in the process. It makes for a clean getaway and lets Superman, Lois and the kid come closer together.

[JoeK32880]

Where in the film was Superman a psycho, a stalker, or watching anyone in bed with his X-Ray vision?

Sure, Richard is, from what we've seen of him, a likable, good guy. I think it's great that Singer, Dougherty, and Harris didn't just play him as the jerk and make everything easy for everybody.

I just fail to understand why Richard being likable means that Superman becomes somehow less likable.

Because Supes is gonna steal his girl.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I still don't understand how Richard White is a more sympathetic, more heroic, or more likable character than Superman.

I completely agree. Richard White is an heroic character, sure, but nowhere near as heroic as Superman. And this, as much as people deny it, was proven in the movie more than once.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Where in the film was Superman a psycho, a stalker, or watching anyone in bed with his X-Ray vision?

Sure, Richard is, from what we've seen of him, a likable, good guy. I think it's great that Singer, Dougherty, and Harris didn't just play him as the jerk and make everything easy for everybody.

I just fail to understand why Richard being likable means that Superman becomes somehow less likable.

Again, agreed. The words "psycho" and "stalker" have no place in this movie's comments, reviews or whatever. A stalker goes well beyond what Superman did. He only wanted to know how Lois was doing, in light of the conversation he had with her earlier, as CK. As for the "psycho" thing, well, there's no need to elaborate on that.

He's Superman, goddammit.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

But it didn't send that message at all. The line just reminds us that what's SUPPOSED to go there is "the American Way". They could've easily added a line ingratiating Superman with the global community and left this line out altogether. All this line does is pander to a culture in which its popular to hate America. It's that sort of hip cynicism that made Superman Returns suck to begin with.

I completely disagree. I, being somewhere who's not an US resident, felt good when Perry said that. Why? Because I felt that Perry and the rest knew Superman is the entire planet's champion, and not US' champion or property, or something like that.

That's the message I got. I know why you didn't. And not the entire world hates the US. I don't know why you think that way. Yeah, "the American Way" is supposed to go at the end of the phrase, but what if it didn't? IMHO, and again, don't get me wrong, there's no such thing as "the American Way". As I said in another post, the good values are something present all over the world, and let me tell you, they were not created in the US.

[MaxofSteel]

Again, agreed. The words "psycho" and "stalker" have no place in this movie's comments, reviews or whatever. A stalker goes well beyond what Superman did. He only wanted to know how Lois was doing, in light of the conversation he had with her earlier, as CK. As for the "psycho" thing, well, there's no need to elaborate on that.

He's Superman, goddammit.

*High fives 666MasterofPuppets*

:D

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Superman being unlikeable has nothing to do with Richard, really. Let's see.

-First, he abandons Earth, and Lois--a woman he claims to love--without even saying goodbye because he thinks he's found a trace of Krypton. Usually, people leave without saying goodbye when they don't expect to return, which means Supes expected to find a bunch of Kryptonians out there and would've been perfectly cool to leave Earth behind in favor of hanging with them instead.

Well, I thought that finding Krypton was a reason heavy enough to give. But perhaps you are right with this. He should have said good-bye at least. However, he acknowledged this, and asked Lois for forgiveness.

-Unfortunately for Superman, there ARE no Kryptonians out there, so he decides to come back to his adopted planet and expects to be welcomed with open arms by the world and the woman he abandoned. He mopes and feels sorry for himself because he feels so isolated, even though it was he that left his mother, Lois and Earth behind for a chance to find people he has no real emotional connection with.

Not sure about him "expecting" to be welcomed with open arms. And in the prequel comics, IIRC, didn't he say good-bye to Ma Kent?

-Superman tries to make a move on Lois, knowing she's in a committed relationship with a man and has a kid. Odd, he was willing to abandon her completely five years ago.

Point taken, although it was Lois the one who almost kissed Superman, but held back.

-We find out Lois' kid is Superman's. Now, I'm not sure how long it normally takes women to discover they're pregnant, but let's long ball it and say a month. So, within a month of sleeping with Lois, Superman left Earth without even saying goodbye to her. Burn.

There's some serious stuff with this point. Did Lois ALWAYS know that Jason was Superman's son, but didn't want to tell him until the end? Or didn't she know until she saw Jason do what he did?

Richard, OTOH, has been a good boyfriend and dedicated father to a boy that ain't even his. He also saved Superman's life at great risk to his own. Furthermore, he's competing for a girl with Superman, which makes him a lot more sympathetic.

I'm not saying Richard's a bad character. As a matter of fact, I like the guy. But what I'm pretty sure about is that Superman didn't know he had a son.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

*High fives 666MasterofPuppets*

:D

Thank you, Max. :D

[Black Atom]

I completely disagree. I, being somewhere who's not an US resident, felt good when Perry said that. Why? Because I felt that Perry and the rest knew Superman is the entire planet's champion, and not US' champion or property, or something like that.

But, like I said, you only got that because the original phrase exists. You know it's supposed to end with "The American Way". In a standalone context, the phrase "Truth, Justice and all that stuff" has nothing to do with embracing the international community. Like I said before, I have no problem with the idea of portraying Superman an international hero--but this quote merely separates him from America and doesn't specifically say ANYTHING about him being an international hero. The sequence showing Superman flying all over the world helping people does a better job of that.

That's the message I got. I know why you didn't. And not the entire world hates the US. I don't know why you think that way.

I never said I thought the entire world hates the US. I said its become popular to villify the US, even among Americans.

Yeah, "the American Way" is supposed to go at the end of the phrase, but what if it didn't? IMHO, and again, don't get me wrong, there's no such thing as "the American Way". As I said in another post, the good values are something present all over the world, and let me tell you, they were not created in the US.

I'm not saying they were, or that they even should've kept the line. I'm saying they should've removed it altogether.

[Black Atom]

Well, I thought that finding Krypton was a reason heavy enough to give. But perhaps you are right with this. He should have said good-bye at least. However, he acknowledged this, and asked Lois for forgiveness.

In the context of the character development of the first two movies, it seems odd that Superman would leave behind people who generally loved him to seek out Krypton. In Superman 2, when Superman turns his back on the world by giving away his powers, it's so he can be with Lois. This is an understandable and relatable act, even though it turns out to be a mistake. Superman deciding to just up and leave is less relatable and makes him seem selfish and unlikeable.

Not sure about him "expecting" to be welcomed with open arms. And in the prequel comics, IIRC, didn't he say good-bye to Ma Kent?

I didn't read them, but I assumed she was the one person he said goodbye to.

Point taken, although it was Lois the one who almost kissed Superman, but held back.

Well, sure, who could blame her? After all, he is Superman and the two were once in love. The issue is, it was wrong for him to tempt her that way and reignite those feelings when she had moved on. It was disrespectful to Richard and hurtful to Lois.

There's some serious stuff with this point. Did Lois ALWAYS know that Jason was Superman's son, but didn't want to tell him until the end? Or didn't she know until she saw Jason do what he did?

I'm really not sure. Either way, Lois isn't looking too good in that equation. If she did know, she had a responsibility to tell Superman. If she didn't know, then she must've thought she conceived a child with another man (who's now nowhere to be found) pretty close to the time she'd been with Superman.

I'm not saying Richard's a bad character. As a matter of fact, I like the guy. But what I'm pretty sure about is that Superman didn't know he had a son.

Well, he didn't exactly stick around long enough to find out, eh?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

But, like I said, you only got that because the original phrase exists. You know it's supposed to end with "The American Way". In a standalone context, the phrase "Truth, Justice and all that stuff" has nothing to do with embracing the international community. Like I said before, I have no problem with the idea of portraying Superman an international hero--but this quote merely separates him from America and doesn't specifically say ANYTHING about him being an international hero. The sequence showing Superman flying all over the world helping people does a better job of that.



I never said I thought the entire world hates the US. I said its become popular to villify the US, even among Americans.



I'm not saying they were, or that they even should've kept the line. I'm saying they should've removed it altogether.

Yeah, it doesn't say anything about Big Blue being an international hero, but it doesn't sound as an US-only hero either. But no sweat. Good that those points were cleared up. Sorry I misunderstood you with the other stuff.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

In the context of the character development of the first two movies, it seems odd that Superman would leave behind people who generally loved him to seek out Krypton. In Superman 2, when Superman turns his back on the world by giving away his powers, it's so he can be with Lois. This is an understandable and relatable act, even though it turns out to be a mistake. Superman deciding to just up and leave is less relatable and makes him seem selfish and unlikeable.

I see your point. But I think that it was a major reason for him, beacuse perhaps he'd find others like him. I mean, in some way, he always feels alone, doesn't he? And no, I don't think he had plans to stay on Krypton.

I didn't read them, but I assumed she was the one person he said goodbye to.

Ok then.

Well, sure, who could blame her? After all, he is Superman and the two were once in love. The issue is, it was wrong for him to tempt her that way and reignite those feelings when she had moved on. It was disrespectful to Richard and hurtful to Lois.

Point taken.

I'm really not sure. Either way, Lois isn't looking too good in that equation. If she did know, she had a responsibility to tell Superman. If she didn't know, then she must've thought she conceived a child with another man (who's now nowhere to be found) pretty close to the time she'd been with Superman.

Agreed. Because the other thing is that Richard actually believed he's Jason's father, and that would make no sense whatsoever. Anyway, that's been discarded, I guess, exactly because of that.

Well, he didn't exactly stick around long enough to find out, eh?

Hehe, who knows? Perhaps half-Kryptonian half-human babies take a lot longer to gestate? :D

[The Batman]

Did Superman go talk to Lois on the roof purposely to tempt her away or just to talk to her and clear the air?

'Cause I didn't get the 'tempt away' vibe from his actions at all.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

You might be right, my friend.

[Citizen V]

I think SR had ties to the previous Superman films because of one reason.Singer and WB were afraid that if the Superman movie franchise was started all over again,some might not want to see it as a result.

[Paul Dee]

I think SR had ties to the previous Superman films because of one reason.Singer and WB were afraid that if the Superman movie franchise was started all over again,some might not want to see it as a result.


The same idea could be applied to the Batman franchise though surely? Never stopped Batman Begins from being made.

SR had ties to the previous Superman films because they had a director who doesn't really care for the character as much as he does for the spirit of Richard Donner's Superman. Simple as that to be honest. I don't know why it was so accepted (well maybe it wasn't); if Christopher Nolan had come up with a new Batman film which followed on from Batman Returns, ignoring Forever and ...& Robin I wonder what the response would have been?

It's a shame really because a rebooted Superman franchise would be so promising.

[Black Atom]

For the record, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion of the film. Just trying to shed light on why some of us found Superman unlikeable, which had a lot to do with why some of us found it unenjoyable.

[glennsim]

Regarding meeting fan/geek expectations:

While it's true that comics fans make up a small percentage of the audience, I think it's been fairly consistent that the films that were more concerned with adapting the original comics more faithfully have been more successful. To use the most obvious examples, you have the successful Spider-Man at one end of the spectrum, and the crappy Catwoman at the other.

While that doesn't make sense on the surface, the best explanation I've seen is that the situation in the comics is what appealed to the audience and enable the character to be a success. By changing that, you're taking a chance on losing what has made the character popular.

I think a movie that kept more to the comics formula in terms of the romantic entanglements, villains, costume, etc. would be more successful. Might not be as "grown up", but I think people would appreciate it for what it is, rather than for what it's trying to be.

[The Batman]

Speaking as someone who really enjoyed Superman Returns, I think that to elevate it in the minds of the average film goer all that you'd have needed to do was up the ante in the action department. When New Krypton is born, have the stuff Superman deals with in Metropolis be more over the top. Instead of catching one guy falling out of a crane he catches a dozen people at superspeed. Stuff like that.

I didn't hear anyone complaining about the suit except for the messageboards and I didn't see anything more maudlin in Superman Returns than I did in Spider-Man 3. Mary Jane was much less likeable than Lois with her "nevermind saving people, what about me" attitude and Peter was somewhat insensitive to her feelings even before he had the symbiote suit. Still Spider-Man 3 had over the top action and I think for alot of people that made up for those moments of quite and sensitivity.

Then again there's the dreadful possibility that for the average person Superman just isn't cool anymore. God I hope that's not the case.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Then again there's the dreadful possibility that for the average person Superman just isn't cool anymore. God I hope that's not the case.

I'd shown all my students the 30 year old Donner film prior to taking them to Superman Returns last summer. Prior to seeing Singer's film, most thought Superman was the coolest guy in the universe. After seeing Singer's film, they thought he was kinda boring.

Make of that what you will....

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Then again there's the dreadful possibility that for the average person Superman just isn't cool anymore. God I hope that's not the case.

I'm pretty sure, as I've said before, that people don't understand Superman. On top of that, there's the current trend among the kids now: "Being dark's hip. Screw the good values. Superman's not cool, Batman and Wolverine are".

[Captain Smith]

I think that folks aren't bored with Supes but this film was boring. Except for the plane rescue, it was a snore.

Add the bizarre out of any continuity, Superbaby which alienated the fan base - and you get the reaction we saw.

The Transformers is making a fortune. Why - great action and not whining characters.

[Ms. M]

Speaking of Transformers, one blog-writing fan wrote a rather bold proposal (http://worldofkj.com/articleIndex.php?tid=30554) asking Michael Bay to direct The Man of Steel. This almost certainly won't happen, but I'm kind of open to the idea, even if I don't consider Bay to be anywhere near a great director. The sequel desperately needs someone with a popular touch who can do good action scenes and Bay is that man.


And I agree with the idea of starting fresh. Superman Returns wasn't a bad film, but it contributed no concepts that would help a franchise and lots of ones that would hinder succeeding films.

[Binker]

Before I continue: IT WASN'T BROWN, IT WAS MAROON. MAROON IS RED!

Okay, while I small part of me wanted a reboot to Superman, the fact that Superman: The Movie is still enjoyable and is watchable even many decades down the line, made it okay. Even though its not a true connection and just a semi-sequel to the original film. Plus, when you add Smallville to it, people might've been like "well if they're retelling Clark Kent becoming Superman is Smallville, what's the point to do it in this film?" And I wouldn't be surprised if we and critics compared a new origin film with the original, classic film.

Plus, I don't really understand the "why connect back to the previosu film series?" Superman Returns isn't the only film that did it, or other Superman-related media that did it. People seemed to have forgotten Smallville and the comic books since OYL. And, all of this started with the Superboy TV Series then Lois & Clark (to a degree).

The only way people are going to like Superman Returns moreso is either the sequel, which would make those say "y'know, SR isn't a bad film". Or, if they didn't already, know what the pitches for a Superman V were all going to be before Singer came in.

And the complaints people like in the first page of this thread: they are not complaints, just very stupid bashing that is nothing solid. People who disliked or hated this film just GOT IT WRONG.

And you know waht else is so stupid: more talking about this film little more than a year since its release. Couldn't this just end?

[Paul Dee]

Plus, I don't really understand the "why connect back to the previosu film series?" Superman Returns isn't the only film that did it, or other Superman-related media that did it. People seemed to have forgotten Smallville and the comic books since OYL. And, all of this started with the Superboy TV Series then Lois & Clark (to a degree).

Not really though. There's a difference in taking aspects of storylines from one medium (the Lois and Clark tv show/Superboy or whatever) and putting them into another (the comics or whatever) and creating a film with specific ties to a previous franchise. Which other film could you name that has said "Right, remember the old series of films that were made 20 years or so ago? Forget the last 2 of them, then sort of condense the plot of the first two. This new movie loosely follows on from the events in those. And we've even got an actor in who resembles the main actor from the original franchise. As well as the same character portrayed by the same actor (Jor-El)". I honestly can't think of any film which has used previous films in a franchise the way Superman Returns does, and to be honest I do think it's to it's detriment.


The reason SR has ties with the old movies is because Singer's not as much a fan of the character of Superman as he is of the old Donner film(s) in general. Superman Returns (which does have its moments) is far too much of a homage for it to stand on its own two feet to be honest. the rough outline of the plot is similar to Superman 1 (especially with regards to Lex's plan) and there's far too much reflection and moping and not enough action (people always cite the plane scene in retaliation here but that's really the only time in the film you see Superman do anything impressive). Singer's reason for not doing a reboot is that he didn't want to do the origin again after Donner but he never had to. Because of the Donner movie/Smallville most people are vaguely aware of Superman's origin and how he came to earth.


I'm really bashing SR here and when I first saw it at the cinema I was impressed with it (the aforementioned plane scene, the build-up to seeing Superman, *that* music and title sequence etc) but one a second viewing I was utterly bored.

[The Batman]

So does this mean that you can only be a fan of Superman if you've encountered him first in the comics?

I mean, I keep hearing that Singer isn't a Superman fan, just a fan of Donner's movie and that just doesn't ring true. Just because Singer doesn't go into the LCS every week - well every couple of months now - to get Superman comics doesn't mean that he isn't a fan of Superman.

[Paul Dee]

So does this mean that you can only be a fan of Superman if you've encountered him first in the comics?

I mean, I keep hearing that Singer isn't a Superman fan, just a fan of Donner's movie and that just doesn't ring true. Just because Singer doesn't go into the LCS every week - well every couple of months now - to get Superman comics doesn't mean that he isn't a fan of Superman.


No, that's not what I meant at all though. Obviously, being a die-hard fan of the original Superman movies means you're a fan of the character. It's problematic though when a fan of Donner-Superman gets to make their own movie because they're main source of inspiration is from the original movies. It's even worse when the new movie is haphazardly tied into the original ones as this is what he's really into.

[Binker]

Actually, Singer is a fan of both Superman: The Movie & The Adventures of Superman TV Series. And he worked with Ken Burns for that documentary and knows the history and mythology of the character. Otherwise, why would he work on such documentary. And the Prequel books, to which he and the two writers originally wrote before the later writers adapted it, shows this. It wasn't just Superman: The Movie like on Krypton's last moments, but well known mythology like the blankets that Ma Kent would make the costume from. And in the film, Young Clark Kent with the glasses (and flying if only for that one shot) mirrored that of Superboy.

So he knows the Superman mythology, and the writers are Superman fans. He just wanted to tell a story that was fresh and different to relaunch the franchise.

[itsyaboy]

I'm pretty sure, as I've said before, that people don't understand Superman. On top of that, there's the current trend among the kids now: "Being dark's hip. Screw the good values. Superman's not cool, Batman and Wolverine are".

I disagree. I've been into Superman comics, movies, cartoons, etc. for over 20 years. I think I have a good understanding of what Superman is about and I didn't enjoy the movie.

And as far as the whole dark is hip thing. You can look at the Spider-Man movies and tell that's not the case. The main character is mostly portrayed as a smart, decent, kid next door character and that franchise is a big success.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I disagree. I've been into Superman comics, movies, cartoons, etc. for over 20 years. I think I have a good understanding of what Superman is about and I didn't enjoy the movie.

Well, you said it yourself. 20 years. It's not the same than the current young people.

But to explain my point further, I'll tell you this: it's about some of the complaints I've seen, which make me think that way. Honestly, I don't remember if it was you the one who made the specific comments, but certainly, the majority of the bashers made them. Things like "there's not enough action, hence the movie is crap", "they should have done a reboot/they shouldn't have linked it to the Donner movies" or "the messiah-thing is bulls***", are some of the comments I'm talking about.

And as far as the whole dark is hip thing. You can look at the Spider-Man movies and tell that's not the case. The main character is mostly portrayed as a smart, decent, kid next door character and that franchise is a big success.

Yeah, but OTOH, and as I said, look at Batman and Wolverine. You'll find the meaning of my words there.

As for Spidey, yeah, he's not dark. But his story is a damn soap opera. And he's not exactly portrayed as a happy, bright character.

[chriskenny]

Well, just for the record I loved Superman Returns and it's ties to the earlier films. But in response to your specific point above...

You would do well to remember that comic fans probably only make up about 5% (if that!) of the total audience that any superhero film is trying to attract. There are many, many people who enjoy superhero films that haven't had any prior contact with the characters featured in the films in their comic book form. The movie companies who finance these films couldn't really give a hoot for the wishes and desires of the comic reading faithful (ie. people like us on these boards). We're a drop in the ocean of the potential audience for their films.

What the big movie making corporations (and perhaps to a lesser extent the movie directors themselves) want is a film that will appeal to a wide demographic of movie goers. That being the case, they're not gonna care too much whether a movie is strictly true to comic book continuity or not. After all, most people who will see the film couldn't care less about comic book continuity. They just wanna see an entertaining, well crafted film with some action, some romance & some good dialogue in it.

It's harsh, I know. But that's the reality of the situation I'm afraid. Deal with it! ;)

By the way, the Spider-Man romance is somewhat changed from the comic books too. As are many other aspects of the films. So, it's not just something that Superman films suffer from.

Well, since Superman Returns did not do well at the box office, they might be re-assessing the notion that they can go in wildly divergent directions with the characters. Sure, Mary Jane didn't meet Peter Parker in those exact circumstances, but it captured the essence of what made that character great and fans and non-fans were both enthralled by it. In the Superman Returns movie, the inner conflict and tension seemed so far removed from what people pay to see in a Superman movie. Yes, comic fans make a small portion of the viewership, but you don't have to be a comic fan to be a Superman fan in this multimedia age. People wanted to see certain things in the movie that weren't there, and saw things they didn't like. If you think comic fans were the only ones complaining about the lame love child subplot, you are mistaken. The movie was weird, and I don't think you need to be a Superman aficionado to see that. The box office receipts bear that out.

[Black Atom]

Well, you said it yourself. 20 years. It's not the same than the current young people.

But to explain my point further, I'll tell you this: it's about some of the complaints I've seen, which make me think that way. Honestly, I don't remember if it was you the one who made the specific comments, but certainly, the majority of the bashers made them. Things like "there's not enough action, hence the movie is crap", "they should have done a reboot/they shouldn't have linked it to the Donner movies" or "the messiah-thing is bulls***", are some of the comments I'm talking about.

Kids today are just as enamored with Superman as they've ever been. The way that WB has tried to jump through hoops to make the character more palatable to a movie audience is misguided since he's already one of the most universally beloved characters in popular culture. It's the silly idea that Superman has become outdated or irrelevent that has led to ideas like giving him a black costume or, in Singer's case, a bastard son. In retrospect, how do you think those efforts to make Superman more "cool" have panned out?

Yeah, but OTOH, and as I said, look at Batman and Wolverine. You'll find the meaning of my words there.

As for Spidey, yeah, he's not dark. But his story is a damn soap opera. And he's not exactly portrayed as a happy, bright character.

Sure, he is. I mean, there's drama and pathos, but there's also hope. More importantly, Peter has fun with his powers. The Spider-Man movies have humor. Who wants to see a movie about a guy with the coolest powers in the world who isn't having fun, doesn't get the girl, and isn't funny? Singer seemed to ape all of the elements of the Donner movies except what made them successful--excitement, fun, humor and heart.

[Citizen V]

The same idea could be applied to the Batman franchise though surely? Never stopped Batman Begins from being made.

It's a shame really because a rebooted Superman franchise would be so promising.

Your exactly right,but this is Superman.Im going to say that just does not apply to him,personally i would have prefered a Reboot also.The Donner films are classic,and i doubt anything will ever be close to it.

It's not the same than the current young people.

I think its sad that their only exposure is Smallville,which i think is a horrible show.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Kids today are just as enamored with Superman as they've ever been.

I don't think that's 100% true, my friend. I've heard some opinions about Superman from today's kids. However, I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who like Superman nowadays. Something like that is, simply put, impossible.

The way that WB has tried to jump through hoops to make the character more palatable to a movie audience is misguided since he's already one of the most universally beloved characters in popular culture. It's the silly idea that Superman has become outdated or irrelevent that has led to ideas like giving him a black costume or, in Singer's case, a bastard son. In retrospect, how do you think those efforts to make Superman more "cool" have panned out?

Possibly, but let's not forget that some of those things were done because several fans demanded it. I've read such kind of demands before in this very same forum. But OTOH, I completely agree with your comments regarding DC's "efforts". They were completely unnecesary. He's SUPERMAN, for Rao's sake.

And no, Jason isn't a bastard son. In order to be so, Superman would have to NOT want/love him. At the end of the movie, we're shown exactly the opposite.

Sure, he is. I mean, there's drama and pathos, but there's also hope. More importantly, Peter has fun with his powers. The Spider-Man movies have humor. Who wants to see a movie about a guy with the coolest powers in the world who isn't having fun, doesn't get the girl, and isn't funny? Singer seemed to ape all of the elements of the Donner movies except what made them successful--excitement, fun, humor and heart.

And how come there wasn't hope in SR? And I remember seeing young Clark having fun with his powers... Admittedly, SR doesn't have as much humor as the original Donner movies, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. There are still humorous moments in the movie. And as for excitement and heart, well, I don't know what to say. IMHO, there were exciting moments and I could see that movie was made with passion and love for the character, despite what other people thinks about it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

I think its sad that their only exposure is Smallville,which i think is a horrible show.

Although I don't think the same about Smallville, I do agree with you in the fact that it's possibly the only exposure kids have to Superman nowadays, or at least their primary source to get to know the character more. Although I could almost say that basic knowledge of Superman is something that's embedded in mankind's genes (:D), it's up to DC and WB to give the king of kings the treatment he deserves.

[Captain Smith]

I read today that Kevin Spacey is going to play Luthor again. It's going to suck. Comic but evil Luthors - bah!

[666MasterOfPuppets]

And how come Luthor's presence in the movie automatically means it'll suck?

[JoeK32880]

And how come Luthor's presence in the movie automatically means it'll suck?

Because we're sick of him. Why does he have to be in every movie? Joker isn't in every Batman movie.

How many wacky real estate schemes can one man come up with anyway?!

[Black Atom]

I don't think that's 100% true, my friend. I've heard some opinions about Superman from today's kids. However, I'm not saying that there aren't any kids who like Superman nowadays. Something like that is, simply put, impossible.

So, you're saying there are kids under 12 saying "Superman the movie? He's lame, I don't want to see that!" I mean, I'm sure there are some, but there's far more that would jump at the chance to see him on the big screen. And, really, do you think Superman Returns made those nay-sayers think he was less lame?

And no, Jason isn't a bastard son. In order to be so, Superman would have to NOT want/love him. At the end of the movie, we're shown exactly the opposite.

The only qualification I know of is being born outside of wedlock. The boy had no idea who his old man was for 5 years.

And how come there wasn't hope in SR? And I remember seeing young Clark having fun with his powers... Admittedly, SR doesn't have as much humor as the original Donner movies, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. There are still humorous moments in the movie. And as for excitement and heart, well, I don't know what to say. IMHO, there were exciting moments and I could see that movie was made with passion and love for the character, despite what other people thinks about it.

The only hope was "I hope the credits run soon."

I agree, I think there was passion there, but I think Singer's heart was totally in the wrong place.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Because we're sick of him. Why does he have to be in every movie? Joker isn't in every Batman movie.

How many wacky real estate schemes can one man come up with anyway?!

Yeah, well, the real estate evil plots are something that needs to be gone. But I wouldn't mind seeing Kevin Spacey playing Luthor again.

So, you're saying there are kids under 12 saying "Superman the movie? He's lame, I don't want to see that!" I mean, I'm sure there are some, but there's far more that would jump at the chance to see him on the big screen. And, really, do you think Superman Returns made those nay-sayers think he was less lame?

I don't know. I could see in that movie some of the things that those nay-sayers wanted.

The only qualification I know of is being born outside of wedlock. The boy had no idea who his old man was for 5 years.

Oh well. I guess there was more than the definition alone.

The only hope was "I hope the credits run soon."

I agree, I think there was passion there, but I think Singer's heart was totally in the wrong place.

I disagree, but I can see why you didn't like it.

[JoeK32880]

Yeah, well, the real estate evil plots are something that needs to be gone. But I wouldn't mind seeing Kevin Spacey playing Luthor again.

True, true. Lexcorp CEO Luthor hiring villains to fight Superman would be very acceptable.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Agreed. Perhaps we'll see some of this in the Super-sequel.

[Citizen V]

The reason why Superman was given a son was to make him more down to Earth.So people could relate to him,even if it was a bad idea.A reboot should have been done,but the Donner films are legendary now.There was going to be a connection to that,no matter what.