Aging music.

[Dreadstar]

I was on the way to work this morning and Goodbye Stranger by Supertramp came on. It occurred to me that even though this music was 30 years old, it still had that something that made it listenable. I thought of the rest of Supertramps work and realized that their stuff had aged well. Very well, indeed. The Logical Song may actually be the piece that aged least gracefully.

So this got me thinking about all the music that I felt had aged well or aged poorly over the years.

I remember a time back in the late 80s early 90s when I was listening to Bob Segar and thinking "Man this hasn't aged very well at all." And then listening to the same music just a few months back and thinking just the OPPOSITE.

My two favorite bands when I left h8igh school for college were exact polar opposites in this regard: The Moody Blues and The Allman Brothers Band.

Now I'm a BIG Moodies fan, but dear LORD is that music dated! As great as the musicianship was, it has not aged well. On the other hand, the Fillmore East concert (and the 3 albums inspired by the performance) remain as listenable to me today as the first time I played them.

So, I figure this'll start some discussion, fersure.

What SPECIFIC music do you hear and think "Damn, that's dated. That sure didn't age gracefully." ?

What do you think HAS made it through the mists of time to still make you bob yer head when it comes on?

Again, don't just say "THE BEATLES, MAN! STONES!" Get specific in the case of the really big hitters. 'Cause, I'm here to tell you, there's a lot of stuff in those two group's discography that hasn't aged well at all. That's not to say that you can't be less specific like I did with the Moody Blues. Obviously, there's a good reason for being al inclusive in that case, re: the sound.

[Ilash]

Again, don't just say "THE BEATLES, MAN! STONES!" Get specific in the case of the really big hitters. 'Cause, I'm here to tell you, there's a lot of stuff in those two group's discography that hasn't aged well at all.

I'll get into this thread a bit more later but, aside for a small handful of songs, I simply don't agree with this at all. More later.

[Dreadstar]

...I simply don't agree with this at all. More later.

Which misses the point, entirely.

[Ilash]

Which misses the point, entirely.

Um, how so?

[Dreadstar]

Um, how so?

The point was not: "Some of the Beatles music has aged."

The point was: "Don't just make a blanket statement on this regard about a huge group who's done hundreds of songs."

I didn't really want to go into specifics about whether of not the Beatles catalog had anything in it that sounds dated, I just wanted to avoid the blanket: "The Stones haven't aged, man!" kinda statements.

[Dreadstar]

Um, how so?

See what I mean?

EDITED because a post was removed exactly prior to this one that proved my point in a concentrated manner.

[Slam_Bradley]

I hate to see Dread pounding his head against the wall like that.

[Dreadstar]

But back to topic.

There are specific reasons why The Moody Blues music hasn't aged well. The "sound," for one. It seems that Moog synthesizers are the sound of an era. Much like its contemporary, the Hammond B3, once you hear the sound, you immediately make the association. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. I'd say in the Moog's case, this is usually tends to bring about a "gee, that's old" response. The Moody's also used a lot of heavy "empty concert hall" reverb. I call it that, because I don't know what else to call it. Just... dated, as a sound. Then there's the whole "psychodelia" as being a generation ago. The sound hits your ears, and suddenly you see bell-bottoms and bright paisleys. (not really, it's a metaphor) You get the idea.

[Dreadstar]

I hate to see Dread pounding his head against the wall like that.

Hah!

So, any Miles Davis you consider to be dated?

[Slam_Bradley]

Hah!

So, any Miles Davis you consider to be dated?

Oddly, I do. With Miles it can be a little hard. He was so frequently on the cutting edge of the new sound that he frequently defined the date.

I find most of his work from the early to mid-80s hasn't aged well at all. I'll recognize that Miles skills as a band-leader had atrophied by that time, but there were still flashes of brilliance such as Amandla. But most of his work during this time was horribly overdubbed and is simply too tied in to the 80s. I don't want to hear Miles playing Cyndi Lauper or Michael Jackson. And I want to hear improvisation not overdubbed synth licks.

[Dreadstar]

I imagine that a lot of 80's music will be mentioned in this thread under the dated category.

Assuming that anyone actually posts in it besides me.

[Slam_Bradley]

I imagine that a lot of 80's music will be mentioned in this thread under the dated category.

Assuming that anyone actually posts in it besides me.


Does anyone else really matter?

[Slam_Bradley]

Pretty much the entirety of the "Urban Cowboy" movement in Country music. Not that it was anything to write home about in the first instance, but the likes of Barbara Mandrell, Mickey Gilley, Johnny Lee, Eddie Rabbit, Ronnie Milsap and numerous others I've blocked from my mind, are intrinsically stuck in an era and haven't aged at all well.

I say that also about the "genres" rock counter-parts. The Eagles, Linda Ronstadt, Poco the time has passed.

[Dreadstar]

I don't know about the Eagles. As much as it's become cool to quote "the Dude," I think the early Eagles from the early 70s can still pass as listenable.

Hotel California? Not so much.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I was on the way to work this morning and Goodbye Stranger by Supertramp came on. It occurred to me that even though this music was 30 years old, it still had that something that made it listenable. I thought of the rest of Supertramps work and realized that their stuff had aged well. Very well, indeed. The Logical Song may actually be the piece that aged least gracefully.
This doesn't really make a lot of sense to me; if someone asked me to name one band as the ultimate exemplar of the late-70s lite-rock sound, I'd say Supertramp. It sounds very tied to its era, to my ears.

Not that that's a bad thing. I don't really understand (literally; I'm not just being condescending) the idea that something that sounds of its time is not listenable today. Whether it's the crackly hiss on Robert Johnson's 78s, the fuzz guitars and raga-influenced drones of late-60s psychedelia, or the polished synthesizer sounds of, say, Duran Duran, certain sounds are tied to certain eras, and some people will automatically reject any of those temporal signifiers, a mistake I think is just as bad as fetishizing them (as I've heard plenty of fans and musicians to with all three).

[Dreadstar]

I get where you're coming from Jonathan, but I'm pretty sure "dated" takes on a bit more meaning than simply that. Or at least, if it doesn't, surely you can get my meaning from the rest of my posts in this thread. I don't really think I can get anymore clear than that.

[Shellhead]

I don't know about the Eagles. As much as it's become cool to quote "the Dude," I think the early Eagles from the early 70s can still pass as listenable.

Hotel California? Not so much.

We've headed into very subjective territory. Hotel California has gotten massively overexposed on classic rock stations, but it still sounds like a timeless classic to me. (Probably helps that I stopped listening to classic rock stations about 15 years ago.) But many of the other Eagles hits strike me as soft country rock, a sound that has been out of style for nearly 30 years now. But what do I know? I was always more of a Joe Walsh fan than an Eagles fan.

[Dreadstar]

The whole idea is probably 80% subjective, with a 20% that can easily be rationalized away like maybe the afforementioned Moody Blues.

For example:

Straight up, has the disco sound of the 70s aged well or poorly?

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Certain songs in Marvin Gaye's catalog such as What's Going on and Inner City Blues remain relevant socially. Which should be a good thing, but on the other hand if certain aspects of society's problems affected listeners of yesterday, in a similar manner to today's listeners, it appears someone wasn't really listening yesterday.

a question for dread. as far as aging well do you mean the lyrical content, or the overall melodic themes of the music itself?

[Dreadstar]

Certain songs in Marvin Gaye's catalog such as What's Going on and Inner City Blues remain relevant socially. Which should be a good thing, but on the other hand if certain aspects of society's problems affected listeners of yesterday, in a similar manner to today's listeners, it appears someone wasn't really listening yesterday.

a question for dread. as far as aging well do you mean the lyrical content, or the overall melodic themes of the music itself?

Either one, doesn't matter.

For example, what about Subteranean Homesick Blues?

[leonaozaki]

Either one, doesn't matter.

For example, what about Subteranean Homesick Blues?

I'd say any song that includes the lines "don't follow leaders/watch the parking meters," "you don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows," or "twenty years of schooling and they put you on the day shift," hasn't dated at all.

rob

[Shellhead]

Straight up, has the disco sound of the 70s aged well or poorly?

I think that some old disco songs have held up well:

Stayin' Alive, by the Bee Gees
I Will Survive, by Gloria Gaynor
Lady Marmalade, by uh... whoever

And I realize that funk is a whole different category, but it was dance music from the same time and undoubtably showed up at all the same parties and discos. Who can deny the ongoing popularity of:

Brick House, by the Commodores
or
Play That Funky Music, by uh... whoever

But a lot of the rest of that era has probably been left in the dust.

[Jonathan Bogart]

Lady Marmalade, by uh... whoever
Play That Funky Music, by uh... whoever
Labelle and Wild Cherry, respectively.

I'd say that the disco sound -- especially the more club-oriented sound that was all glittering washes and insistent beats, as opposed to the pop-chart stuff -- has aged very well, and sounds much better than the techno it later inspired.

[Sanagi]

I think the Moody Blues' 80s material has aged a lot worse than their psychedelic stuff. I'd much rather listen to On the Threshold of a Dream than The Other Side of Life, for example.

Supertramp has aged well because they don't sound like anyone else.

[sevenzark_7]

For me, pretty much anything by A Flock Of Seagulls sounds really dated. I'll hear it playing in a store at the mall and just cringe at how old it makes me feel. It sounded futuristic at the time though. I listened to it recently, and I realized that for the most part, they mix surf guitars with synths, which is actually pretty cool. Obviously I'd never heard surf guitar before they came out. Their lyrics weren't too bad either- songs about love etc.

I think time has an "evolutionary" effect on music too. For example, what we think of as, say, '70's or '80's music is really a lot of different styles, but people forget the garbage as time goes on, or only the most popular tracks make continuous play as the years go by. Also, record companies are releasing more "greatest hits" albums simply because they don't want to keep an artist's entire catalog in print.

And in case you're wondering, yes there IS a remix album of "Whipped Cream & Other Delights" by Herb Alpert & the Tijuana Brass!! :p

[mattx110]

anything with electronic drums doesn't age well. sometimes synth works (ELO) sometimes it doesn't.

[Shellhead]

For me, pretty much anything by A Flock Of Seagulls sounds really dated. I'll hear it playing in a store at the mall and just cringe at how old it makes me feel. It sounded futuristic at the time though. I listened to it recently, and I realized that for the most part, they mix surf guitars with synths, which is actually pretty cool. Obviously I'd never heard surf guitar before they came out. Their lyrics weren't too bad either- songs about love etc.


There were only a couple of hits from A Flock of Seagulls, but I think that both of those songs still sound reasonably fresh today. It's their videos that are really dated looking, really cheesy amateur MySpace stuff even looks better than A Flock of Seagulls video.

There is one musician who really hit his stride in the 70's with songs that still sound contemporary even today: David Bowie. Slick, cool, and innovative stuff.

[Dreadstar]

Bowie *is* a good example of well-aged music, I agree.

[Ilash]

I hadn't replied to the thread yet because I was not really sure where I really stand on the whole idea of "dated" music. Like Jonathan, I think that most music, most art even, is tied to the period that it was released in and I certainly don't see that as a bad thing. It affords the listener a snapshot of what the world was like at the time it was released and ultimately, because of the (perhaps unfortunate) nature of the world, many if not most of the themes that are dealt with in decades old music is still entirely relevant. As for the music itself, just because a piece of music/ song from however many decades ago doesn't sound like the music that is being released currently, doesn't mean it is any worse.

On the other hand, when I first read your post, I did actually understand where you were coming from. I understood why you might consider The Moody Blues "dated" and not the Allmans. Take psychadelia, for example. Plenty of it still sounds great and fresh to my ears (The Beatles, The Byrds' Eight Miles High) while some of it sounds really awful and what might be considered to be "dated" (Parts of The Stones' Satanic Majesty's album, The Byrds' CTA 103). The thing is that I'm kind of of the opinion that bad psychadelia now was probably bad psychadelia now so I don't really buy that is has dated at all. I like the Moody's but I doubt that those idiotic little poems that started off their albums ever sounded good. I'm not a big fan of music from the 80s' reliance on drum machines and synthesizer but I don't really think I would have liked them then either.

[Adam C]

But back to topic.

There are specific reasons why The Moody Blues music hasn't aged well. The "sound," for one. It seems that Moog synthesizers are the sound of an era. Much like its contemporary, the Hammond B3, once you hear the sound, you immediately make the association. Sometimes this is good, sometimes this is bad. I'd say in the Moog's case, this is usually tends to bring about a "gee, that's old" response.

For me the Moog elicits more of the "guh, 70s English progressive rock!" response. I wonder it elicits the same feelings in other people?

(Then again I've listened to Emerson, Lake, and Palmer one too many times.)

((Hammond B3 on the other hand has the dignity of being associated with funky soul jazz.))

[howyadoin]

if someone asked me to name one band as the ultimate exemplar of the late-70s lite-rock sound, I'd say Supertramp. It sounds very tied to its era, to my ears.I could see that, but it's an era and a sound I'm really fond of, so to me that doesn't necessarily make it seem dated.


And getting back to Dread's question, I can't really think of any examples outside of the 80s. But that particular decade had such a huge amount of processed-sounding guitars (thanks for nothing, David Foster) that a lot of otherwise decent-sounding music will forever be tainted. Case in point: I saw Judas Priest on the Angel of Retribution reunion tour, and they were fucking ferocious. Big, loud, great guitar tones, and Halford's voice was huge. Then when I got home that night, I dug out some of their 80s stuff, and was surprised by how flat and weak it sounded - the vocals sound like Halford was being strangled. You'd never guess from those songs that he has such a powerful voice. Same thing with the guitars.

[howyadoin]

Hammond B3 on the other hand has the dignity of being associated with funky soul jazz.And 60s garage bands.

[Jonathan Bogart]

And 60s garage bands.
Isn't that more Farfisa than B3?

[howyadoin]

Isn't that more Farfisa than B3?You may have a point there.

[Adam C]

And 60s garage bands.

I think it was the Farfisa organ that was more the choice keyboard of 60s garage rock.

Which is another instrument whose sound dated...but boy do I like it.

Edit: Damnit, Jon beat me to it.

In any case my experience with listening to stuff with a Hammond B3 is that it has a fuller sound. The Farfisa is a lot more reedy and tinny.

[david r]

I think a lot of the 1960s hit songs have aged well. The technology may sound inferior, but the actual "harmony" and tunes are much more memorable than today's music. In terms of pure catchy songs, the 60s win hands down IMO.

Whereas I think a lot of the psychedelic music of the late 1960s just sounds incomprehensible now. Bands who were purposefully trying to sound "out there" just sounds amateurish now. A case in point is 90% of the Rolling Stones' Their Satanic Majesty's Request (1967) LP which has some nice stuff (She's a Rainbow, The Lantern), but when the Stones try to sound weird and psychedelic, it just turns into rubbish.

[Buried Alien]

Hammonds, Farfisas, and Vox Continental electric keyboards were standard equipment for a large number of 1960s garage rock bands.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Dreadstar]

Hammonds, Farfisas, and Vox Continental electric keyboards were standard equipment for a large number of 1960s garage rock bands.

Ah, the Vox Continental. Inextricably connected to Ray Manzarek forever...

[Dan Apodaca]

Are you kidding about the disco?

Those songs are inherently tied to their eras. That's why they're used in so many "period" movies and TV shows. They're also REALLY bad. I mean, Lady Marmalade?

No frickin' way. Not in any universe, is that song fresh or good. It's extremely formulaic, very repetitive, and inextricably 70's. As is Stayin' Alive, and pretty much all of those disco songs.

Most music doesn't age well, simply due to the lyrics. There's just so much cliche and cheese dripping from popular songs of the 50's, 60's, and 70's. You hear the first part of a verse and you can already predict what the second verse will be.

[Reptisaurus!]

I mean, Lady Marmalade?

No frickin' way. Not in any universe, is that song fresh or good.


I should probably point out that I’m white, male, straight, and terminally unfunky. Yet even I can dance to this. And have. (Not in public.) Labelle were a consciousness-shifting act, on the level of Sly & the Family Stone and Funkadelic, who remain criminally underappreciated today, difficult to find even on compilations — except for this song, their only hit. This cold shoulder is partly due to the fact that their dialed-to-eleven hard-funk sound can be difficult to get into, especially on the less rocking tunes, and partly it’s leftover chauvinism from the 70s, when a tear-the-roof-off-the-mother act like Patti, Nona and Sarah was still looked down on for having a largely gay audience. (By the way, what the hell has happened to gay taste in America? From Labelle to Madonna is not an improvement.) “Lady Marmalade” briefly resurfaced in the worldwide pop consciousness thanks to Moulin Rouge, but its snapshot life story of an aging transvestite is both a bitterer and a better story than that cotton-candy fluff — and than Lou Reed’s condescending, daring-you-to-be-shocked “Walk on the Wild Side.” (The Bob Crewe of the credits, by the way, was one of the masterminds behind Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons a decade earlier. You think you know a guy.) Not too long afterwards, they gave up the high-camp space-age accoutrements and Patti became just another diva, belting out high-processed smarm for aging black boomers. Nona still kicks ass, though.


I pretty much agree. (Except I've heard a Labelle album all the way through. G.C. and Sly it ain't.)

I wouldn't compare it to the best of G. C. or Sly, but it does what it's supposed to do (tell a little short story) and does it with style. I probably like the remake a little better than the original even if it does kind of misplace the plot of the story half-way through. But it's a *very* strong set of lyrics, delivered with class.

[Jonathan Bogart]

I pretty much agree. (Except I've heard a Labelle album all the way through. G.C. and Sly it ain't.)
Which one? Nightbirds (the one with "Lady Marmalade" on it) was actually the beginning of the end for them; they rocked harder and grooved more densely on their earlier records.

(That little quote above was me, for those who don't know.)

[Reptisaurus!]

Chameleons. Which turns out to be a few albums after Nightbirds.

It was good pop - Patti's a hell of a singer, and there were a couple of great arrangements - but not transcendent pop.

Keep in mind that there are days I'll argue that P. Funk are the greatest rock era band (and Funkadelic one of the best rock bands, period) so far.

[Reptisaurus!]

And the *ending* to the first side was spectacular.