-=The All-Purpose METAL Thread=-

[666MasterOfPuppets]

EP just came out on iTunes. I just ordered it and will be giving the studio versions a listen here shortly.

Mr Puppets, why are you SOL? Not in US?

Exactly. Not in the US. Although it seems Apple made the iTunes store available in South America, which is where I live. I guess I won't know for sure until I try. I'll have to wait till next year, though.

[4thHorseman]

EP just came out on iTunes. I just ordered it and will be giving the studio versions a listen here shortly.


Are they the same quality as the youtube versions? If not, how much better do they sound?

And after more listening, Hell and Back is growing as my favorite if only because of the riff. Still can't get into Rebel of Babylon. While I feel it's the most complex and the most "complete" song, I like to have a sort of catchiness to my songs whether it be riffs, delivery of the lyrics, or whatever.

Rebel of Babylon...just isn't doing it for me. Not a bad song, but nothing that makes me want to listen to it as much as the other songs.

And according to people who went (and pictures) the show was being recorded. So hopefully we'll hear news on a dvd/blu-ray release of the anniversary shows. If nothing else, I wouldn't mind at least the audio to be released.

[ImpulseUCF]

Are they the same quality as the youtube versions? If not, how much better do they sound?Much better. The quality on the youtube versions is pretty crappy. It's much more even and there's a lot less distortion of the audio.

Rebel of Babylon...just isn't doing it for me. Not a bad song, but nothing that makes me want to listen to it as much as the other songs.Wow, really? I thought it was one of the catchiest ones. The descending riff right after the clean intro, the monstrous chugging riff, and that epic Maiden/Mercyful Fate-esque chorus is pretty damn catchy to me, and that blaring accent riff just after the 4 minute mark before Kirk solos just makes me so happy. To each his own, but I love that one.

Hell and Back is definitely growing on me, too. I like them all. The only parts I don't like are the modern metal-style choruses where they just blare out chords (I've never liked this type of chorus when anyone does it) and honestly...James' vocals are pretty awful. If one area needed some studio attention it's the vocals.

[Alex Keller]

Metalrr (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epPgrj-yFfE).

Check this guy out. He's a YT user who constantly kills metal covers of all kinds of theme songs. I think he's pretty great. I've been listening to this particular vid all day.

Edit: And the best Metal band to me is Heaven Shall Burn :biggrin:

[ImpulseUCF]

Anyone else had a chance to listen to the new high quality versions of the Metallica EP? It's been enough time that I think opinions can be formulated beyond initial reaction. Mine:

General complaints/nitpicks:

Lars's drumming is pathetically uninspired and bland. It sounds like he was bored and not even trying to be creative, and that sticks out for me.
James' vocals seem to have gotten worse with time. I'm not sure if it's not produced as well as Black/Load era stuff, but it grates for me now when it didn't used to. Speaking of production....
I don't like the production/sound of it very much at all. I couldn't tell you precisely what's different, but if you listen to the sound of this as compared to the sound of, say, Puppets, I LOVE the sound of Puppets. Not a lot of dynamics, and the tones/tambers of things don't sound good.


General Positives:

James and Kirk seem the most energized they've been in years, and Rob sounds great!
I like that the songs shift in and out of slower and faster stuff instead of plodding along
The groove on this album is insane!
Great riffs


1. Hate Train
On further inspection, it's sounds very Load/ReLoad ish but with more balls. This was initially my favorite of the bunch, but it's slid back though I still enjoy it a lot.

2. Just a Bullet Away
I love the galloping triplets in the intro and throughout, and the main verse riff on this track is INSANE. I love the little vocal inflection James does with
the "even the promise of danger..." bit. AH, so fucking brutal. The clean harmonies part is a nice break though I don't like the tones or sound of it. Production issues aside, this is my 2nd fave here.

3. Hell and Back
I am really digging the slow heavy groove here. Lots of catchy riffs. I hate the chorus though. I always hate this modern sound things where bands just slam out on distorted chord repetitively. Other than that, great stuff. Great solo and outro. Just a great song!

4. Rebel of Babylon
For fuck's sake, when I first heard that ascending double picked riff at about 1:16 I just about fucking fell down. And the verse. Holy shit! This is my favorite aside from the bridge (again with that slamming on chords). The chorus is nuts! It's like a screaming tribute to Maiden or Mercyful Fate, and the second half of the song is just insane. If only the production was better! If this had the sound of Puppets I'd say this song would fit right in there ,but the production and vocals just sound so different.

Overall, I really like this EP, and I'd love to hear your guys' thoughts.

[Brad Barton]

I'm pretty much with you on most of that Ron, but I'll give throw out my little analysis here in each category:

Production - Sub-par, absolutely. The guitars are weak and lifeless, the drums WAY too far forward in the mix, and the mix as a whole just far too loud and dry. It needs more finesse, more guitar and vocal overlays, some fucking REVERB (have they forgotten it exists?), less "in yo face!" vocals with more layering and sonic breathing room. The only good thing I can say about it is it was better produced than St. Anger, which as we all know was a pretty damn low bar to clear.

Overall, I think PART of what keeps these songs from fulfilling their full potential is the sub-par production. Coming from Metallica, formerly one of the best produced bands on the planet (sans Justice), there's really no excuse.

Music - Flashes of brilliance, but no rock-solid, well-flowing masterpieces, though Rebel of babylon comes as close as they have in awhile. I really like most of the music in all these songs and do think they feel more inspired than they have in awhile, but they need to hone both their arranging and their transitioning to better sync these parts. Some of the fat needs to be trimmed, the excess riffs that aren't quite relevant in any way other than to fill out disc space need to be left on the cutting room floor or saved for future albums. Speed and technicality are great and I'm glad to see them getting back into it, but they shouldn't be so afraid to at times keep it compact, flowing and monstrous a la The Black Album.

There are parts that remind me of the Metallica of old though. The badASS chorus to Rebel of Babylon and the cool mellow breakdown in Just A Bullet Away, among many others.

Drums - My complaints are few, Lars. 1. Lay off the fucking snare. 2. Work on your fills and transitions (i.e. don't just pound on the snare). Other than that, most of what's going on works for the songs. B- for Lars.

Kirk - The "live and off the floor thing" isn't cutting it. Put a little more thought into it, less pulling it out of your ass. More melody, less pentatonic wankery. REVERB. I like a few of the solos, a bright spot being the solo in Rebel of Babylon I think, but for the most part they feel obligatory and don't add the depth and character they did in the first 5 or even the Loads. Kirk gets a C-. He passes, but N/I.

Vocals - Leaving production aside, I'm really liking most of what James is doing with the vocal melodies, though I do think they missed quite a few opportunities to really make the music soar with overlays and vocal harmonies. I think they were going for a Justice-y vibe (which had very few melodies but tons of overlays), though it doesn't quite get there. I'm also not fond of the straight out melody-less bark he resorts to at times (the chorus to Just A Bullet away), but there are other times the melodies or pitched growl just hit the perfect mark ("Kill me one more times, stig-ma-taa"). Overall I'll give James a B. Good work with room for improvement.

As for his rhythm work, almost flawless. I'm liking almost everything he's doing from a songwriting point of view, some of the fat just needs to be trimmed.

Bass - Rob is definitely present, but needs to be a bit higher in the mix. He's there, and there are times he makes his presence known, but often he's a low, ominous rumble in the background instead of a true thickener. As for his writing; not much flair, a bit of a utilitarian approach, but very groove-oriented and appropriate. I dig most of it. Rob gets an A-.

Overall: B. If their next album cycle improves as much as DM and BM did from St. Anger though, we may be in for a good one.

I didn't mean for that to be an essay, sorry. Call it a review.

[Alex6166]

I tried to find a physical CD of Beyond Magnetic today and they didn't have any. Weak!

[ImpulseUCF]

The guitars are weak and lifelessOddly enough, I've noticed this about most bands who play this style lately, even the old guys. I think that's the trend these days for how to produce that type of stuff, and frankly, I wish it would go away. On the last Slayer album there was only one song where the guitars sounded like a Slayer song. The most frustrating part about that is it shows they are still capable of getting it right but are choosing not to.

the drums WAY too far forward in the mixYep. Way too forward, and the sound of them was crap. Tune your drums, Lars.

It needs more finesse, more guitar and vocal overlays, some fucking REVERB (have they forgotten it exists?), less "in yo face!" vocals with more layering and sonic breathing room.

Overall, I think PART of what keeps these songs from fulfilling their full potential is the sub-par production. Coming from Metallica, formerly one of the best produced bands on the planet (sans Justice), there's really no excuse. You mean...production?? They shouldn't just mic their shit, EQ it and call it a day? :tongue: Amazing!

Seriously, though, this is key. They were one of the best produced bands, specifically within their genre. I specifically look to Puppets and Black for sheer quality of production. Even the Loads, say what you will about the settings and content, were well produced. It was a polished, professional product that presented the material the best it possibly could. Here it sounds like they just tossed it together. Granted, better than Stanker, but still not quite there. It sounds like they're still not finished. Its like they got 80% of the way there, got excited/lazy, and published it.


Music - Flashes of brilliance, but no rock-solid, well-flowing masterpieces, .....need to hone both their arranging a....Some of the fat needs to be trimmed,...Speed and technicality are great a....but they shouldn't be so afraid to at times keep it compact, flowing and monstrous a la The Black Album. Nailed it. Every song has at least one part that drags me out of it. Hate Train carries on too long, the generic and lazy modern chord-slamming bridges and choruses, repetition. I'd rather have an excellent 4 minute song than a pretty good 8 minute song especially when it's the same stuff over and over.

There are parts that remind me of the Metallica of old though. The badASS chorus to Rebel of Babylon and the cool mellow breakdown in Just A Bullet Away, among many others. With some serious production/polish, trimming, and a few musical tweaks, Rebel of Babylon wouldn't have been out of place on one of the latter 80s albums. All my nitpicks and criticisms aside, I grin and find myself nodding my head along despite myself everytime I play that song.


Drums - My complaints are few, Lars. 1. Lay off the fucking snare. 2. Work on your fills and transitions (i.e. don't just pound on the snare). Other than that, most of what's going on works for the songs. B- for Lars.Heh, it's funny. If you watch his vids, I can't for the life of me figure out why he has so many pieces! He has toms, cymbals, all over the place, but all he does is BASS - SNARE - BASS - SNARE - SNARE SNARE SNARES SNARE CRASH!. Dude, TRY. Try to be interesting. Try a fill. Play a flourish here or there. Leave some space. Speed up. Show off!


Kirk - .... More melody, less pentatonic wankery. REVERB. I like a few of the solos, a bright spot being the solo in Rebel of Babylon I think, but for the most part they feel obligatory and don't add the depth and character they did in the first 5 or even the Loads. Kirk gets a C-. He passes, but N/I.I agree. I like his delivery, but the content is kind of empty, and the production is weak weak weak. I used to LOVE his lead tone. I've been spent most of my adult life trying to emulate James' rhythm and Kirk's lead tones from the 80s in my own playing, and they don't even sound the same any more.

Vocals - Leaving production aside, I'm really liking most of what James is doing with the vocal melodies, though I do think they missed quite a few opportunities to really make the music soar with overlays and vocal harmonies. I think his best album vocal performance was on the Black album, and if they had taken that level of care and polish to what he did here it would be a whole lot better.

As for his rhythm work, almost flawless. I'm liking almost everything he's doing from a songwriting point of view, some of the fat just needs to be trimmed.James' riffs are easily the strongest point of the release. Trim the fat and lose the parts where you're trying to sound like the other modern heavy bands. Those bands suck! :P


Bass - Rob is definitely present, but needs to be a bit higher in the mix. He's there, and there are times he makes his presence known, but often he's a low, ominous rumble in the background instead of a true thickener. As for his writing; not much flair, a bit of a utilitarian approach, but very groove-oriented and appropriate. I dig most of it. Rob gets an A-.I wonder how much of that is Rob versus weak production and the guys not letting him go to crazy with his parts?


I didn't mean for that to be an essay, sorry. Call it a review.LOL, sorry to respond to every single thing you said. I can't speak for everyone here, but I really love these in depth discussions and it's been a long while since we've had one here.


I tried to find a physical CD of Beyond Magnetic today and they didn't have any. Weak!I got the impression they kinda tossed this out pretty quickly without a lot of thought, so maybe they didn't have time to ramp up the physical production cycle. Maybe they will?

[ImpulseUCF]

Nevermind. I'm screwing with the mixes. It's amazing what a little reverb does to these tracks.

[Brad Barton]

Oddly enough, I've noticed this about most bands who play this style lately, even the old guys. I think that's the trend these days for how to produce that type of stuff, and frankly, I wish it would go away. On the last Slayer album there was only one song where the guitars sounded like a Slayer song. The most frustrating part about that is it shows they are still capable of getting it right but are choosing not to.Probably has something to do with their "We never look back, only forward" credo, which gets them into a lot of trouble sometimes. They were going for a "live, raw" sound, which they still apparently haven't realized DOES NOT WORK on a studio Metallica album. Their fanbase is too accustomed to polished production and no amount of forcing "rawness" down their throats is going to change their minds. You polish and produce the FUCK out of these songs, then worry about making them feel lively and raw when you actually play them live.


Yep. Way too forward, and the sound of them was crap. Tune your drums, Lars. If they'd put Lars further back in the mix and brought Rob a smidge forward, that alone would make the overall sound less offensive to the ears. And yeah, his playing is pathetically unimaginitive and workman-like. He was never the best drummer on the planet, he only tended to impress in the old days because this fast stuff was very new and he TRIED. These days he approaches it like a drum machine. Too much pro-tools cut+paste, not enough working it out naturally.


Even the Loads, say what you will about the settings and content, were well produced. It was a polished, professional product that presented the material the best it possibly could. Here it sounds like they just tossed it together. Granted, better than Stanker, but still not quite there. It sounds like they're still not finished. Its like they got 80% of the way there, got excited/lazy, and published it.Exactly, perfectly put. The music hadn't fully metamorphosized into a final product yet, but it was getting close. These albums sound like Justice/Black-era demos. Which is crazy for a finished studio album. And since they're bringing back the exact same production team for the next album, I'd guess it'll sound pretty damn similar, which is a real shame.

Where the fuck is Bob Rock? I wish I could sit him and the band down in a room, force them to listen to TBA-Reload a dozen times each, and say "See? Like that."


I'd rather have an excellent 4 minute song than a pretty good 8 minute song especially when it's the same stuff over and over.Me too. But more accurately, I'd rather have an 8 minute song that doesn't FEEL like an 8 minute song. They used to be the masters of that, but now their 7-8 minute tracks feel like 20, especially when they abandon a cool, interesting part for a generic, plodding riff that doesn't go anywhere and doesn't fit within the context of the song (the second half of The Day That Never Comes is a great example. I never though I'd say this about Metallica, but... TOO. MANY. RIFFS.)


Dude, TRY. Try to be interesting. Try a fill. Play a flourish here or there. Leave some space. Speed up. Show off!'Nuff said.


I agree. I like his delivery, but the content is kind of empty, and the production is weak weak weak. I used to LOVE his lead tone. I've been spent most of my adult life trying to emulate James' rhythm and Kirk's lead tones from the 80s in my own playing, and they don't even sound the same any more.I think his tone is just the start of his problems. Too often he sounds like Nigel Tufnel from Spinal Tap - Lots of dweedly-dweedly that sounds arbitrary, doesn't play off the rhythm underneat it, and goes nowhere. We know you're better than that Kirk, and so do you.


I think his best album vocal performance was on the Black album, and if they had taken that level of care and polish to what he did here it would be a whole lot better.
James' riffs are easily the strongest point of the release. Trim the fat and lose the parts where you're trying to sound like the other modern heavy bands. Those bands suck! :PI don't hate the downpicked open chords as much as you do-- I actually like them in Rebel of Babylon-- but I do think the mostly very good rhythm parts suffer from, again, horrible production.

Greg Fidelman may be a great guy, but can someone please kick him the fuck out of the studio?


I wonder how much of that is Rob versus weak production and the guys not letting him go to crazy with his parts?Doubt he got the hazing Newsted did. I think Metallica have always been a bit bass-averse-- even Cliff was too low in the mix. I think Rob is doing his job well though. The parts fit with the guitars and don't distract, and while he's too low in the mix, his tone is just right.


I got the impression they kinda tossed this out pretty quickly without a lot of thought, so maybe they didn't have time to ramp up the physical production cycle. Maybe they will?Nope. No physical release for BM, it's going to be a digital download only from what I understand.

Alex- You can always try that Bay that Pirates hang at.

[ImpulseUCF]

Probably has something to do with their "We never look back, only forward" credo, which gets them into a lot of trouble sometimes. They were going for a "live, raw" sound, which they still apparently haven't realized DOES NOT WORK on a studio Metallica album. Their fanbase is too accustomed to polished production and no amount of forcing "rawness" down their throats is going to change their minds. You polish and produce the FUCK out of these songs, then worry about making them feel lively and raw when you actually play them live.Exactly. The studio is your chance to create the best work that you can possibly create. Otherwise, why even bother making an album? Just record the shit live and release that.

If they'd put Lars further back in the mix and brought Rob a smidge forward, that alone would make the overall sound less offensive to the ears. And yeah, his playing is pathetically unimaginitive and workman-like. He was never the best drummer on the planet, he only tended to impress in the old days because this fast stuff was very new and he TRIED. These days he approaches it like a drum machine. Too much pro-tools cut+paste, not enough working it out naturally.Yeah, he was never the best, but he used to make an effort. Here he is just keeping time 90% of the time. It's not that he is playing his parts poorly..it's that what he is playing is dull.

Exactly, perfectly put. The music hadn't fully metamorphosized into a final product yet, but it was getting close. These albums sound like Justice/Black-era demos. Which is crazy for a finished studio album. And since they're bringing back the exact same production team for the next album, I'd guess it'll sound pretty damn similar, which is a real shame.Uuuggghh, don't tell me that. I don't know who screwed the pooch on this one, but somebody needs to be fired.


Where the fuck is Bob Rock? I wish I could sit him and the band down in a room, force them to listen to TBA-Reload a dozen times each, and say "See? Like that." Ha! It's funny you say that. I almost said they should call Bob Rock up again in my last post. Creatively, they are going in the right general direction, but Bob's production value in the studio is SORELY missed right now.

The funny thing is they're the ones shooting themselves in the foot. They're the ones who set the damn bar so high before! Like it or not, any metal group that comes anywhere close to the "mainstream" (I use the term relatively) metal audience is measured against classic Metallica, and that will always include current Metallica. I can understand not wanting to create the same album again and again, but there's no excuse to do a shitty job presenting the new material. I'd like to be able to evaluate the new stuff on its own merit as a creative work, but I'm spending half my energy bitching about the audio production because it is vitally important on a SOUND RECORDING.

These are a lot closer to done than the songs on St. Anger, but still so far to go.

[Scurlogg_Hawkk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI2x0PdleQ <----- Here is some bulgarian metal again from me but i am proud with this band very proud
the band is Fyeld the song is AdrenaWheel.Have fun !


Cheers

[ImpulseUCF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZI2x0PdleQ <----- Here is some bulgarian metal again from me but i am proud with this band very proud
the band is Fyeld the song is AdrenaWheel.Have fun !Nice! Thanks for sharing. It's cool to see how people all over interpret different styles. I like this. It's like a fairly aggressive early 2000s nu-metal with more balls. :)


Also, I've been going back and rediscovering stuff/listening to albums in full I haven't listened to in a while. As a result, I forgot how good some of them really are. A few thoughts from this experiment...

Megadeth's Cryptic Writings is a REALLY great album that gets overlooked by the fans a lot. There's some really great songs on there, the guitars sound amazing like the sounds are roaring and ripped out of them, and my GOD I miss Marty's solos. Personal issues aside, Marty & Dave were a killer musical partnership.

Master of Puppets is possibly the best composed and produced metal album I've ever heard. It literally is more like a composition than the typical collection of riffs, bridges and solos most groups do, and the quality and detail of production are great. Every little thing sounds great and every note and hi-hat seems deliberate. Lars isn't boring!

As much crap as I used to give it, the Black album is actually a lot better than I remember in that slow, heavy grooving way, and the production is phenomenal.

Anybody else rediscover something or notice something new about an old favorite?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Nice! Thanks for sharing. It's cool to see how people all over interpret different styles. I like this. It's like a fairly aggressive early 2000s nu-metal with more balls. :)


Also, I've been going back and rediscovering stuff/listening to albums in full I haven't listened to in a while. As a result, I forgot how good some of them really are. A few thoughts from this experiment...

Megadeth's Cryptic Writings is a REALLY great album that gets overlooked by the fans a lot. There's some really great songs on there, the guitars sound amazing like the sounds are roaring and ripped out of them, and my GOD I miss Marty's solos. Personal issues aside, Marty & Dave were a killer musical partnership.

Exactly my thoughts on this album. It's a very good album, right there with Countdown and Youthanasia, IMO.


Master of Puppets is possibly the best composed and produced metal album I've ever heard. It literally is more like a composition than the typical collection of riffs, bridges and solos most groups do, and the quality and detail of production are great. Every little thing sounds great and every note and hi-hat seems deliberate. Lars isn't boring!

From now on, we should refer to this album as the ALMIGHTY AND ETERNAL MASTER OF PUPPETS. God, I freakin' love that album to death.


As much crap as I used to give it, the Black album is actually a lot better than I remember in that slow, heavy grooving way, and the production is phenomenal.

Well, it's not that I gave the Black Album crap, but when I compared them to the others, I said "what?". But this record is awesome and it stands on its own.


Anybody else rediscover something or notice something new about an old favorite?

I always get amazed whenever I listen to Cliff playing the bass, and I wonder how things would be like in 'Tallica land if he were still alive. And how much would his virtuosism have evolved. Sadly, we'll never know.

[Hiromi]

Dear Bruce Dickinson, you have not made a solo album since 2005, you have never made a solo album that wasn't incredible, please make another solo album.

[DonC]

I always get amazed whenever I listen to Cliff playing the bass, and I wonder how things would be like in 'Tallica land if he were still alive. And how much would his virtuosism have evolved. Sadly, we'll never know.


Interesting exercise. I hate to say it, but I don't think Metallica would be so popular today if Burton had lived. Cliff, honestly, was the most "metal" of the band. I don't think he would have agreed with the choices the band made recording And Justice For All. Specifically, making a video for "One" and starting to utilize MTV and radio stations. And, yes, softening their music some. Certainly making it more polished.

Cliff, in short, wouldn't have liked the band wanting to be so popular. (Notice me trying not to say they sold out.)

With Burton, I think Metallica would have had one or two very popular albums, then fallen from the mainstream when the rest of metal did. They would have remained popular amongst metal fans, but gone from playing stadiums and arenas to playing mid-sized theaters.

Basically, I think if Cliff Burton had lived, Metallica would have had a career like Megadeth.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Interesting exercise. I hate to say it, but I don't think Metallica would be so popular today if Burton had lived. Cliff, honestly, was the most "metal" of the band. I don't think he would have agreed with the choices the band made recording And Justice For All. Specifically, making a video for "One" and starting to utilize MTV and radio stations. And, yes, softening their music some. Certainly making it more polished.

Cliff, in short, wouldn't have liked the band wanting to be so popular. (Notice me trying not to say they sold out.)

With Burton, I think Metallica would have had one or two very popular albums, then fallen from the mainstream when the rest of metal did. They would have remained popular amongst metal fans, but gone from playing stadiums and arenas to playing mid-sized theaters.

Basically, I think if Cliff Burton had lived, Metallica would have had a career like Megadeth.

Which is not a bad thing, IMO. Y'know, I asked Kirk about this on Twitter the other day, and he answered that a few things would be different but nothing too drastic. But I dunno, given that it's true that Burton was the most metal guy in the band. And not only that, he was pretty much the band's leader.

[ImpulseUCF]

Exactly my thoughts on this album. It's a very good album, right there with Countdown and Youthanasia, IMO.Yeah, the songs were just so damn well crafted and polished. There was a nice flow, consistent melody, and no detail was overlooked. The choruses were hooky, the vocals sounded great, and most importantly this album has some of my favorite guitar solos ever by anybody on anything in any genre ever ever EVER, period, end of story.

From now on, we should refer to this album as the ALMIGHTY AND ETERNAL MASTER OF PUPPETS. God, I freakin' love that album to death.It's hard not to. What's not to love?

I always get amazed whenever I listen to Cliff playing the bass, and I wonder how things would be like in 'Tallica land if he were still alive. And how much would his virtuosism have evolved. Sadly, we'll never know.
Cliff, honestly, was the most "metal" of the band. I don't think he would have agreed with ...making a video for "One" and starting to utilize MTV and radio stations. And, yes, softening their music some. Certainly making it more polished. You know, this is always an interesting point. I don't know that I'd necessarily say he was the most "metal" but he was by FAR the most a "real" musician. Not just a bass player in a metal group. Listen to his compositions, his melodies, his playing, etc. I don't know who is most responsible for the neo-classical interludes and complexities of Puppets, but Metallica's music was definitely more complex and legit from a music and not just metal standpoint when Cliff was around.

As for polish..I don't know, Puppets was pretty damned polished. Not just polished...composed. It literally sounds like every single part of that album was deliberately crafted to be where it was kind of like a classical piece whereas the newer stuff, Loads in particular, sound a lot easier, off-the-cuff and improvised riffing and jamming. I suspect Cliff's passing had more to do with them shifting from more deliberately crafted to more improvised than
necessarily from more heavy to less heavy. I think I even recall hearing how the guys, specifically Kirk, were getting frustrated while creating Justice due to how complex and difficult the song were, so maybe that really was Cliff's big contribution. I certainly don't know, but that's my two cents.


They would have remained popular amongst metal fans, but gone from playing stadiums and arenas to playing mid-sized theaters...
Cliff, in short, wouldn't have liked the band wanting to be so popular. (Notice me trying not to say they sold out.)Would he have balked at the video and popularity? I don't know. Times were changing, and metal was becoming more mainstream, so that is where things were going. At the time, videos were becoming the primary format and channel for music, and maybe the idea of getting to push their vision without being compromised onto the public would have been appealing. Also, hey, fame and fortune can be seductive and don't necessarily negate quality. I saw an interview with Cliff and James after Puppets came out and they were touring with Ozzy I think, and Cliff is the one who answered accusations of selling out by saying they basically do whatever it is they feel like doing and to hell with anyone else. That seems to suggest to me that if they wanted to do a video and felt there was some artistic merit to what they wanted to create, then they would have done it, and anyone who complained could suck a fat one. And it's not like they compromised their ferocity on One, either the song or the video. :)


Which is not a bad thing, IMO. Y'know, I asked Kirk about this on Twitter the other day, and he answered that a few things would be different but nothing too drastic. But I dunno, given that it's true that Burton was the most metal guy in the band. And not only that, he was pretty much the band's leader.Yeah, I have to imagine it's hard to know really since the dynamic is forever changed. Maybe Black would have been more technical, and the Loads would likely have not happened, but who knows?

[666MasterOfPuppets]

You know, this is always an interesting point. I don't know that I'd necessarily say he was the most "metal" but he was by FAR the most a "real" musician. Not just a bass player in a metal group. Listen to his compositions, his melodies, his playing, etc. I don't know who is most responsible for the neo-classical interludes and complexities of Puppets, but Metallica's music was definitely more complex and legit from a music and not just metal standpoint when Cliff was around.

Exactly. In fact, it was Cliff who taught them whatever they knew at the time about music theory. Also, Cliff was a man who pushed the envelope when it came to songwriting. The bass distortions were never before used like that in the metal scene, until he came along.


As for polish..I don't know, Puppets was pretty damned polished. Not just polished...composed. It literally sounds like every single part of that album was deliberately crafted to be where it was kind of like a classical piece whereas the newer stuff, Loads in particular, sound a lot easier, off-the-cuff and improvised riffing and jamming. I suspect Cliff's passing had more to do with them shifting from more deliberately crafted to more improvised than
necessarily from more heavy to less heavy. I think I even recall hearing how the guys, specifically Kirk, were getting frustrated while creating Justice due to how complex and difficult the song were, so maybe that really was Cliff's big contribution. I certainly don't know, but that's my two cents.

Yes, except for ...And Justice, all of the albums were more like an easy-going thing when it came to composition. And then we have St. Anger...


Would he have balked at the video and popularity? I don't know. Times were changing, and metal was becoming more mainstream, so that is where things were going. At the time, videos were becoming the primary format and channel for music, and maybe the idea of getting to push their vision without being compromised onto the public would have been appealing. Also, hey, fame and fortune can be seductive and don't necessarily negate quality. I saw an interview with Cliff and James after Puppets came out and they were touring with Ozzy I think, and Cliff is the one who answered accusations of selling out by saying they basically do whatever it is they feel like doing and to hell with anyone else. That seems to suggest to me that if they wanted to do a video and felt there was some artistic merit to what they wanted to create, then they would have done it, and anyone who complained could suck a fat one. And it's not like they compromised their ferocity on One, either the song or the video. :)

Now that you mention it, you might be right. Back then one of the things the fans identified in Metallica was the fact that they never had made videos for their songs. So, when the change came, obviously some fans had to get upset about it. But it's not a bad thing, really, as long as it's done properly.

And yes, Metallica have always said they'll do whatever they please. If Lulu is not an example of that, I don't know what would be.


Yeah, I have to imagine it's hard to know really since the dynamic is forever changed. Maybe Black would have been more technical, and the Loads would likely have not happened, but who knows?

Ah, I can only imagine a "bass solo take 2" or take 20. Damn it.

[Venomous Mask]

The greatest metal band? It's a three way tie between Ozzy-era Sabbath, Neurosis, and Cathedral.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Ah, Neurosis and Cathedral. Too bad that Cathedral is splitting up.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Hey, I just litened to - admittedly - one song from Morbid Angel's latest, called "Existo Vulgoré". I think it's a pretty standard stuff (i.e., not bad at all). But that made me curious: What's the beef people have against Illum Divinum Insanus?

[Venomous Mask]

Ah, Neurosis and Cathedral. Too bad that Cathedral is splitting up.

Yeah, it's a real shame. Although to be honest, their last two albums weren't all that good.


Hey, I just litened to - admittedly - one song from Morbid Angel's latest, called "Existo Vulgoré". I think it's a pretty standard stuff (i.e., not bad at all). But that made me curious: What's the beef people have against Illum Divinum Insanus?

From what I've heard from it, the band didn't seem to know if they wanted to do traditional death metal or be Powerman 5000, hence both styles come off as half-assed.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Yeah, it's a real shame. Although to be honest, their last two albums weren't all that good.

From what I've heard from it, the band didn't seem to know if they wanted to do traditional death metal or be Powerman 5000, hence both styles come off as half-assed.

Wow. I'll have to give it a listen, just to be sure.

[ImpulseUCF]

What are your picks for best albums by Neurosis and Cathedral? I want to check them out.

[Venomous Mask]

What are your picks for best albums by Neurosis and Cathedral? I want to check them out.

Every Neurosis album is somewhat different. Their first two albums were basically hardcore punk; if you don't like that style, I'd avoid them. Their third album, Souls at Zero, is basically extreme progressive metal with harcore vocals; great stuff with awesome riffs, but it takes some getting used to. Their fourth album, Enemy of the Sun, is basically a wall of noise; again great stuff, but you need alot of patience. After that comes Through Silver In Blood, which is the album I would recommend you start out with first. It's basically a progressive sludge album with psychedelic elements; very heavy and high energy. Times of Grace is their next album; very heavy with some mellow folk elements, maybe the second album you should look at. A Sun That Never Sets is awesome, but it has alot of folk and acoustic elements, so if you just want metal, you might initially avoid it. The Eye of Every Storm is possibly their best; it's sort of post-rockish like Explosions in the Sky, but very heavy. It's really an experience, like walking through a burning desert naked. Their most recent album, Given To The Rising, is great, but just a more laid back version of the previous album.

Long story short, I can't really say where you should start first. If you like punk, go for the first two. If you want something really fast and heavy, go for the third and fifth. If you want something very deep and psychedelic, go for the last five. Their third is only is you have alot of patience (and probably alot of weed).

As for Cathedral, the first three are the best. Forest of Equilibrium is classic funeral doom; if you don't like straight doom, skip it. Their second, The Ethereal Mirror, is probably their best. It's just an awesome combination of doom, traditional heavy metal, psychedelia, and even 70s pop. Their third, Carnival Bizarre, is more traditional metal, but still very catchy and fun. After that, it's very hit and miss. Endtyme is a pretty good stoner doom album, and The VII Coming is pretty catchy though not as good as their earlier stuff. I would avoid their last two. Also, be sure to check out their double EP, Soul Sacrifice/Statik Majik; it has some of their best songs and really shows all of their different styles.

[Venomous Mask]

Wow. I'll have to give it a listen, just to be sure.

Just check out what's posted on youtube; I don't think it's worth getting over even downloading.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

Just check out what's posted on youtube; I don't think it's worth getting over even downloading.

Yes, you're right. I'll do just that.

[ImpulseUCF]

Every Neurosis album is somewhat different. Their first two albums were basically hardcore punk; if you don't like that style, I'd avoid them. Their third album, Souls at Zero, is basically extreme progressive metal with harcore vocals; great stuff with awesome riffs, but it takes some getting used to. Their fourth album, Enemy of the Sun, is basically a wall of noise; again great stuff, but you need alot of patience. After that comes Through Silver In Blood, which is the album I would recommend you start out with first. It's basically a progressive sludge album with psychedelic elements; very heavy and high energy. Times of Grace is their next album; very heavy with some mellow folk elements, maybe the second album you should look at. A Sun That Never Sets is awesome, but it has alot of folk and acoustic elements, so if you just want metal, you might initially avoid it. The Eye of Every Storm is possibly their best; it's sort of post-rockish like Explosions in the Sky, but very heavy. It's really an experience, like walking through a burning desert naked. Their most recent album, Given To The Rising, is great, but just a more laid back version of the previous album.Ehh, I really couldn't get into these guys. Maybe I shouldn't try when I'm at work and distracted, but this doesn't seem to be my thing. I also have to take issue with equating them with Ozzy-era Sabbath as one of the three best metal bands. One, because they're too off the beaten path, and two, come ON, it's Ozzy era Sabbath. :P Seriously? Not saying they're not good, but 3-way tie? Come onnn. :biggrin:

As for Cathedral, the first three are the best. Forest of Equilibrium is classic funeral doom; if you don't like straight doom, skip it. Their second, The Ethereal Mirror, is probably their best. It's just an awesome combination of doom, traditional heavy metal, psychedelia, and even 70s pop. Their third, Carnival Bizarre, is more traditional metal, but still very catchy and fun. After that, it's very hit and miss. Endtyme is a pretty good stoner doom album, and The VII Coming is pretty catchy though not as good as their earlier stuff. I would avoid their last two. Also, be sure to check out their double EP, Soul Sacrifice/Statik Majik; it has some of their best songs and really shows all of their different styles.I'm having an easier time with these guys. I am starting with the Ethereal Mirror now and so far, not too shabby. They have a classic Sabbath vibe that I'm enjoying so far. I'll keep on.

Thanks for the info!

EDIT:
Yeah, man, I like these guys a lot better than Neurosis. good call on Ethereal Mirror and the EPs. This is really good! It reminds me of early Sabbath with a bit of thrash tossed in but a lot more progressive. Cool stuff. I don't agree that they deserve a three-way tie for best metal band ever, but they are pretty damn good. To each is own, of course!

[ImpulseUCF]

In case anyone was still waiting for it, Metallica's "Beyond Magnetic" EP is now available in physical CD format.

http://www.metallica.com/products/beyond-magnetic-ep.asp

[dogwelder]

i listened to some of the new songs live on you tube......they cannot get out of this rut they have been in for almost 2 decades of horrible albums. listen to megadeth's and slayer's last albums....they have improved as time went on.
metallica= sad but true!

[ImpulseUCF]

I do agree that Metallica's output post-Black album hasn't been close to what it was, but I disagree that it's all horrible. I also disagree that Slayer and Megadeth have gotten better. Frankly, I think all three bands' best work is years behind them. Specifically, I've been trying to get myself into Megadeth's latest, Th1rt3en, and for some reason I just can't do it.

I don't like the production. Everything sounds so brash and gross and loud with none of the ambience and sound they used to have. Most of the songs seem somewhat half-assed and kinda phoned in, and while the playing is technically great, I don't really like any of the guitar solos. They're not particularly memorable, there's no ethos or core melody, I don't know. Dave's vocals have gone down, too. It sounds mostly like he's growl-talking almost everything. Yeah, there's some good riffs and the talent is there, but the album doesn't do it for me.

[Oskar Von Strange]

For some reason I never really got into Megadeth(out of the Big Four), I've tried, but they just don't click with me.

Anyway I've been getting into the early grindcore stuff recently. Stuff like Napalm Death, Repulsion, Carcass and Terrorizer. Terrorizer has a new album coming out on Feb. 28, so I'm pretty eager for it even though it won't be as great as their epic debut album. Anyone else listen to grindcore??

[dogwelder]

I just checked out several Terrorizer songs on you tube--------very friggin' heavy!!

[coldwarmyth]

For some reason I never really got into Megadeth(out of the Big Four), I've tried, but they just don't click with me.

Anyway I've been getting into the early grindcore stuff recently. Stuff like Napalm Death, Repulsion, Carcass and Terrorizer. Terrorizer has a new album coming out on Feb. 28, so I'm pretty eager for it even though it won't be as great as their epic debut album. Anyone else listen to grindcore??

Yeah I do with the exception of Carcass who I still don't like.

Bolt Thrower (who are still together but probably not recording any more :frown:) and Brutal Truth. Of all the extreme music that came out in the late 80s/early 90s this is still the stuff I listen to especially Bolt Thrower's Realm of Chaos which hasn't lost anything in the almost 24 years since they recorded it (April 1988). I'll never forget hearing World Eater and Prophet of Hatred for the first time in late 1989. Utterly blew my mind and stereo speakers.

[Oskar Von Strange]

I just checked out several Terrorizer songs on you tube--------very friggin' heavy!!
Glad you liked them. Their "World Downfall" album is simply amazing. Fear of Napalm FTW!!!


Yeah I do with the exception of Carcass who I still don't like.

Bolt Thrower (who are still together but probably not recording any more :frown:) and Brutal Truth. Of all the extreme music that came out in the late 80s/early 90s this is still the stuff I listen to especially Bolt Thrower's Realm of Chaos which hasn't lost anything in the almost 24 years since they recorded it (April 1988). I'll never forget hearing World Eater and Prophet of Hatred for the first time in late 1989. Utterly blew my mind and stereo speakers.
Carcass I usually listen to depending how I feel that day.

I looked up Bolt Thrower and I'm impress. Might just listen to more of their stuff. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Melanieshaman]

Nothing about the release of Lacuna Coil's new cd?

[ImpulseUCF]

I haven't heard it. Any thoughts, comparisons, critiques?

In other news, one of my favorite things is rediscovering an unintentionally-neglected old favorite and being blown away all over again. I just listened to Megadeth's Rust in Peace start to finish and I was grinning, banging my head and beating the tar out of my steering wheel just about the whole time. Marty and Dave were such a staggeringly excellent guitar partnership, and that album is just so on fire it's stupid. STUPID! I don't even have words for it. The proggy and intricate rhythm section to Dave's nonstop riffs and blaring explosive solos next to Marty's sprite-like melodies just dancing around like a flame, just ugh. It's SO GOOD.

To whoever said they could not get into Megadeth, I recommend giving this album a solid listen on proper speakers (not a laptop) and the ORIGINAL, not the remastered version. I think the remasters start sounding worse after SFSGSW.

Also, to throw back to our old topic of bands that kinda blur the edge between hard rock and metal and occasionally bleed over.... I've heard some leaks of the new Van Halen album with David Lee Roth, and for good or ill, they sound like...Van Halen with David Lee Roth should sound. Some of them sound pretty damn good, actually, and I've never been a huge VH fan. Anyone else hear it at all, or does nobody here really care?

[Hiromi]

Well the Tattoo single sounded more like a DLR solo track than a VH song, still planning to buy a digi copy tomorrow.

[ImpulseUCF]

Well the Tattoo single sounded more like a DLR solo track than a VH song, still planning to buy a digi copy tomorrow.LOL, well, yeah, that's the worst song so far. Some of the other tracks have some intense riffing and Eddie can still play his ass off.

[Hiromi]

That's pretty promising, cause I didn't exactly dislike Tattoo.

Edit: Bought it and am a few songs into it, it sounds like a followup to 1984, well if Eddie had dropped the Synthesizer and keyboard nonsense and kept writing hard rock. I'm really surprised at how good Roth still sounds on some of these songs, as he was a bit weak sounding on his last solo album. Anthony's backup vocals are missing on Tattoo, but they manage to cover for him pretty well on the other songs, so even that isn't as noticeable as I'd thought it be. All in all a very good album right up there with the classics, def. the album I've been waiting for from them for years.

[Alex6166]

Hey, Dave Mustaine is supporting Santorum for President. I don't want to get political, but I remember when he supported Ross Perot.

I actually got to meet Dave Mustaine once and he was very polite to me. Seeing as I always read what a big mouth he had on him, I was hoping for a quick jab or something. Still, pretty cool moment for me.

[ImpulseUCF]

Yeah, I saw that. I wish he would stop opening his mouth on politics and things so I wouldn't have to associate the things he says with this awesome music. KIMBABIG through Cryptic Writings rae still untouchable. :P

[Oskar Von Strange]

Can't fucking wait for the new Cannibal Corpse album.

Here's a little something from the studio. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZGmujAdao

[miguel_odinson]

Can't fucking wait for the new Cannibal Corpse album.

Here's a little something from the studio. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KZGmujAdao

It's probably going to be just another regular Cannibal Corpse album.It's obviously not going to compare to The Bleeding.

[Oskar Von Strange]

It's probably going to be just another regular Cannibal Corpse album.It's obviously not going to compare to The Bleeding.

Eh, I kinda understand where you're coming from. Their last two albums were great. Like most death metal bands, it's missing that atmosphere from the old days, but still it's Cannibal fucking Corpse!:biggrin:

BTW, I worship their "Butchered At Birth" album.

[coldwarmyth]

Deicide have manifested on my doom deck again for the first time in years (and years and years). Funny, how I am reverting. A few months ago it was Mercyful Fate and, now, Deicide. Saw these guys (as Amon) in Tampa in 1989 with Obituary and Morbid Angel > Wowza. Good infernal times. Glen seems like he's even more of a hoot now than he was then. Horns way up.

Hope folks dig the new Cannibal Corpse, I'm more partial to Chris Barnes' vocals myself so I'll pass.

That said, I am glad to see so many of the older bands still producing material.

[Venomous Mask]

New Overkill album, The Electric Age, is debuting on March 27th.

[pearljamfan32]

Megadeth > Metallica.....

[Deathstroke]

New Overkill album, The Electric Age, is debuting on March 27th.

That is one album I'm definitely looking forward to.

[Oskar Von Strange]

Yeah! New Terrorizer album is out. Sick as fuck!!!

[coldwarmyth]

Yeah! New Terrorizer album is out. Sick as fuck!!!

Glad you like, it's a miss for me.

The new Asphyx is excellent though, much better than their last.

I am playing serious catch up with Deicide though. I hadn't spun 'em in 20 years and man, they are still great.

[Oskar Von Strange]

Glad you like, it's a miss for me.

The new Asphyx is excellent though, much better than their last.

I am playing serious catch up with Deicide though. I hadn't spun 'em in 20 years and man, they are still great.

It much more thrash/death oriented, its no "World Downfall" by any stretch, but I'm enjoying it.

Love me some Deicide, specially their older stuff.

[Venomous Mask]

That is one album I'm definitely looking forward to.

Their last album was pretty amazing, although to be fair, I'm actually a big fan of their groove stuff as well.

[coldwarmyth]

It much more thrash/death oriented, its no "World Downfall" by any stretch, but I'm enjoying it.

Love me some Deicide, specially their older stuff.

Glad you liking the Terrorizer. These days stuff really has to kick my head in and make me take notice for me listen.

Yup first 3 Deicide albums are the tops, but I enjoy just about every album they've released (unheard of for me). I can live without the guitar wankery from the Hoffmann brothers replacements, but that's a minor quibble. For me, Glen is Deicide but it sure doesn't hurt that they write some very memorable heavy tunage (songs that still stand up and take names 20+ years later). And they're just so much fun.

[Oskar Von Strange]

WOOT!!!! Got th new Cannibal Corpse album and all I can say is: Its a fuckin' beast. Its heavy and fast. It grabs ya by the throat and continuously slams you against the wall. So far my favorite track is Crucifier Avenger. I'm really loving this album. My only question is, when's the next album drop??:biggrin:

Also last week I ordered off of Earache records a Terrorizer World Downfall t-shirt/CD pack so I should be getting it in a few days now.

[ImpulseUCF]

It's definitely not new, but I've recently discovered Sepultura's "Arise." AWESOME! Is any of their other stuff up to this caliber?

[ImpulseUCF]

So I went back and listened to old albums I've bene neglecting for a while, and I hit up Megadeth's first album, Killing is My Business and Business is Good. I never paid much mind to that one due to the general roughness of the production, but on a listen with more seasoned ears, wow, there are some killer riffs on this thing. It's also a ferocious record. For as much as the death metal and more extreme guys try to be so hard, the genuine early thrash is ridiculously intense and brutal in what I think is a more organic way. Great stuff.

[Oskar Von Strange]

It's definitely not new, but I've recently discovered Sepultura's "Arise." AWESOME! Is any of their other stuff up to this caliber?

I haven't really listen to any Sepultura besides "Roots Bloody Roots" so I can't say, but have you heard of Cavalera Conspiracy?? It's a band by Max and Igor. Great stuff.

Any Municipal Waste fans out there?? Fatal Feast drops this April on the 10th, pretty excited.

[Deathstroke]

I picked up the new Accept CD Stalingrad today and got an Iron Maiden "The Trooper" T-shirt for 30 percent off.

[ImpulseUCF]

Anybody checked out Hysterica? Really cool all-chick metal band. Their first album was pretty thrashy, while their second has harder vocals but is a bit more generic musically, but they rock pretty hard! Some of my favorites are below. Does anybody know any other metal bands with female singers? Preferably thrashy with sung vocals, not shredding/death growls/grunts. Musically, Kittie is almost what I want, but I feel like she ruinis the music with her vocals when she has such a great singing voice that has power and balances the harsh music well.

Anyway, Hysterica are a little campy, but I love it.

Girls Made of Heavy Metal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvmDuGL4se8)

We are the Undertakers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2_o0DtEv4&feature=relmfu)

Heels of Steel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_lNRzDlgJ8)

Heavy Metal Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eCoym-yGTo&feature=relmfu)