is Shaw right? (X-men: Endangered Species spoilers)

[mike627]

"Face it Charles.We were supposed to be the clever ones the visionaries.You. me. Erik. And all we do is fight each other until our knuckles bled."

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Of course he's right about the fact that they keep fighting. Hell, it's *fact*.

But him *lecturing* Chuck?

Come on, that would be like Creed telling Wolvie he has anger issues only without any twinkle in the eye.

[Slant]

Yeah he's right, but its not really all Xavier's fault, even though that seems to be the thing to do.

[Beast]

Of course, he can't even spell Erik Lensherr's name right. ;)

He's right, but he's also hypocritical. Especially if you look back at Shaw's old dialogue.

Shaw: If I and my associayes can isolate the genetic quirk that created us, and then custom build, through genetic engineering, mutants at will, the possibilities are limitless. In that quest, Nightcrawler, you X-Men will be our guinea pigs. You know, in a sense, it would have been better for you four if we had killed you. (UXM #133)

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Yeah he's right, but its not really all Xavier's fault, even though that seems to be the thing to do.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not with Cyke on his 'to hell with Chuck' crusade, but good guys *do* have a reason to point an accusatory finger at Chuck.

But bona fide ruthless (well, once anyway) bad guys? Come on. :D

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

What funny is that Shaw said that "realization" after he was mentally ploting to bring down Sunspot in the Hellfire Club...which is just as bad as infighting

[Greg Anderson]

Mike, you bastard! Stealing my AIM avatar!:mad:

[mike627]

Mike, you bastard! Stealing my AIM avatar!:mad:Mr.Anderson I don't even know you!:eek: :p

[Omega Alpha]

Yeah, he's right, but he's to blame as much if not more than the others. And, well, the two smartest human beings (or metahumans) in the MU are the ones that fight the most, so you can really expect anything else.

[CaptainCanada]

Did the visionaries spend a lot of time fighting? Sure. But they were offering competing visions.

Xavier really doesn't have anything to apologize for. He built a school to educate young mutants and offer a safe haven, and formed a team of superheroes to keep the peace between mutants and humans, to prevent violence and prejudice. In the course of this, he ran up against people like Sebastian Shaw, who were preying on mutants (in Shaw's case, he tried to abduct a member of Xavier's own team, among other things), and stuck up for the defenseless. Where's the error here? Should he have left the Morlocks at the mercy of the Marauders, allowed Sentinels to hunt down mutants worldwide, and not saved the world dozens of times?

Magneto offered an unapologetically separatist vision, which could certainly be called counterproductive; but it was a genuine vision for mutants' future and safety, and one that a great many bought into, given all the crap that mutants have endured over the years for no reason (Shaw, by comparison, is hardly a "visionary"; he's a businessman who runs an elite club dedicated to enriching itself).

[Beast]

"Face it Charles.We were supposed to be the clever ones the visionaries.You. me. Erik. And all we do is fight each other until our knuckles bled."
I see you edited. Note that I meant Shaw in the book had it Eric. Where it's Erik. ;)

[Tazirai]

Yeah he's right, but its not really all Xavier's fault, even though that seems to be the thing to do.


exactly. it takes more than one person to start a fight. and sometimes a helluva lot more to end one.

[Frank]

I would love for Shaw to be an X-Man. I've always been a huge fan of his, an intelligent planner that can go physical with the bests.

[Karl H]

"Face it Charles.We were supposed to be the clever ones the visionaries.You. me. Erik. And all we do is fight each other until our knuckles bled."

that was one of my favourite bits of the whole issue.

That and the Cyke Wolvie chat at the end. I loved every minute of that book. An emotional X-men downtime issue. And rain, lots of rain. It always makes the X-men seem more emotional!

[End of Time]

Wait a second...

Shaw a visionary? What the hell happened that he's suddenly viewing himself as someone who has lofty ideals on par with Xavier and Magneto? His Hellfire club was about profit and self-indulgence. Shaw was never a visionary the way Xavier was, or Magneto. Shaw served no ideals other than selfishness.

[Karl H]

Wait a second...

Shaw a visionary? What the hell happened that he's suddenly viewing himself as someone who has lofty ideals on par with Xavier and Magneto? His Hellfire club was about profit and self-indulgence. Shaw was never a visionary the way Xavier was, or Magneto. Shaw served no ideals other than selfishness.

I believe the key word was supposed to be a visionary.

The regrets of an old tired man perhaps?

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Sebastian Shaw is a DISGUSTINGLY underrated villian. Yeah..I can't wait until Dark Beast and Sinister return in the coming months but this guy should be in Spider-Man and the other street level books causing MAJOR mayhem behind the scenes. He's too intelligent and resourceful not to be.

[TinMan]

Wait a second...

Shaw a visionary? What the hell happened that he's suddenly viewing himself as someone who has lofty ideals on par with Xavier and Magneto? His Hellfire club was about profit and self-indulgence. Shaw was never a visionary the way Xavier was, or Magneto. Shaw served no ideals other than selfishness.

Agreed. I also feel it's fair to point out that visionaries or not, that's why politics exist in the world; people don't always see eye-to-eye. They all had opposing "visions", so conflict was inevitable, especially in a situation where mutant powers are involved. It's ignorant on Shaw's part to make some kind of claim that they could work together, Xavier and Lensherr maybe, but Shaw just doesn't fit with either of the former's ideals.

[Karl H]

Agreed. I also feel it's fair to point out that visionaries or not, that's why politics exist in the world; people don't always see eye-to-eye. They all had opposing "visions", so conflict was inevitable, especially in a situation where mutant powers are involved. It's ignorant on Shaw's part to make some kind of claim that they could work together, Xavier and Lensherr maybe, but Shaw just doesn't fit with either of the former's ideals.

See I think you've taken what Shaw's said there Tin and jumped 1 step to far. At no point is he saying that they 'could work together'. Just that they feel that they should as leaders of the race have done more.

Shaw is there and using a holo-inducer as a metaphor for the mutant race, tired, old and facing death.

Or at least that's my take.

[Mikl C]

Erm didn't Shaw like FUND the sentinels or something? Hypocritttte. Someone should spin him around until he BARFS.

[TinMan]

See I think you've taken what Shaw's said there Tin and jumped 1 step to far. At no point is he saying that they 'could work together'. Just that they feel that they should as leaders of the race have done more. I don't think I am at all. His statement implies that all three are visionaries but they've spent their time fighting, if they weren't fighting what else would they do with each other? Have a tea party? The only thing left is cooperation or ignoring the others, which wouldn't happen because individual ideals always come into conflict with others ideals when human lives are involved in the equation.

So basically you're left with the oppurtunity to cooperate with one another, but this requires some kind of matching ideals, which Shaw does not share with Xavier and Mags. The other option is to oppose each each other or ignore each other, but the X-Men aren't willing to let Shaw carry out heinous plans that would harm humanity, thus the conflict between the two groups was inevitable.

We aren't talking politics where people argue in a senate or house, we're talking people willing to kill others without a second thought to achieve what they feel is right. That's why Xavier created the X-Men, to find a peaceful co-existance with humans and prevent the extremists like Shaw and Mags from changing the world violently.

Shaw is there and using a holo-inducer as a metaphor for the mutant race, tired, old and facing death.

Or at least that's my take. I can kind of see that I guess, but I think it's a bad metaphor if that's what it was supposed to be; the mutant race is neither tired nor old, facing death sure but neither of the former.

He should have been a cancer patient with two hairs on his head because of the chemo, that would have been a more apt metaphor; suffering a premature death due to an unexpected and improbable cause.

[steve2275]

I don't think I am at all. His statement implies that all three are visionaries but they've spent their time fighting, if they weren't fighting what else would they do with each other? Have a tea party?shaw is already dressed for the occasion :cool:

[Karl H]

I don't think I am at all. His statement implies that all three are visionaries but they've spent their time fighting, if they weren't fighting what else would they do with each other?

I think it was more the potential to have been visionaries. An old man looking back on a life full of missed opportunites, made ever more bitter-sweet by the brief period where mutants were on the up, as exemplified by the Morrison era.



So basically you're left with the oppurtunity to cooperate with one another, but this requires some kind of matching ideals, which Shaw does not share with Xavier and Mags. The other option is to oppose each each other or ignore each other, but the X-Men aren't willing to let Shaw carry out heinous plans that would harm humanity, thus the conflict between the two groups was inevitable.

We aren't talking politics where people argue in a senate or house, we're talking people willing to kill others without a second thought to achieve what they feel is right. That's why Xavier created the X-Men, to find a peaceful co-existance with humans and prevent the extremists like Shaw and Mags from changing the world violently.

I can kind of see that I guess, but I think it's a bad metaphor if that's what it was supposed to be; the mutant race is neither tired nor old, facing death sure but neither of the former.

As i've said it's more the imagination of an alternative reality. I didn't really intend one phrase in a comic book to cause such a debate.



He should have been a cancer patient with two hairs on his head because of the chemo, that would have been a more apt metaphor; suffering a premature death due to an unexpected and improbable cause.

I definitely disagree with that. Cancer patients is probably a metaphor too far. For me and graphically I couldn't see it work as well as the visual example of a frail old man.

I'm really gonna have to read this over the weekend

[DDM]

Sebastian Shaw used the Hellfire Club as a means to make more money; mutants are simply another means of profit to him (The Hellfire Club invested in Genosha's stock when they created mutate slaves from mutants in secret). He wanted to isolate the x-factor to custom build mutants at will for profit. He also made billions with his government contracts to build Sentinels. Emma Frost did the similar thing with her Massachusetts Academy to recruit mutants for the Hellfire Club & her conglomerate business, Frost Enterprises.

Sebastian Shaw's goals conflicted with Xavier's & Magneto's goals; Shaw did his goals mostly in secret without being on the battlefield himself. I think his line is simply a means to manipulate Xavier; it was a jab at Xavier that he's no better than Magneto.

[Hi-Fi]

Shaw is pretentious enough to think himself as a visionary.

[DDM]

Erm didn't Shaw like FUND the sentinels or something? Hypocritttte. Someone should spin him around until he BARFS.

Shaw Industries built Sentinels & improved them for the US Government (first appearing in Uncanny X-Men #151-152 then in The New Mutants #2). He was on his way building the super Sentinel Nimrod in the mainstream Marvel Universe.

[DDM]

Shaw is pretentious enough to think himself as a visionary.

Sebastian Shaw has to be a visionary to become a millionaire by his early-20's & he became a billionaire by his 30's. He just uses his ideas to enrich himself & ultimately rule the world when no one is none the wiser about his true goals.

[TinMan]

I think it was more the potential to have been visionaries. An old man looking back on a life full of missed opportunites, made ever more bitter-sweet by the brief period where mutants were on the up, as exemplified by the Morrison era.I don't think it has anything to do with "potential" though, Xavier and Lensherr are visionaries, Xavier has been since his inception and Lensherr has been-at the very least- since the early Claremont era.

Shaw on the other hand could be feeling he missed some oppurtunities now that things are going the way they are, but he has to be self-deluded to believe he was ever a visionary. I can see him saying that as some kind of delusional response to Xavier because he thinks so highly of himself and doesn't see Xavier as a visionary, but that intern is more to do with Shaw's own psychology and arrogance than anything else.

I definitely disagree with that. Cancer patients is probably a metaphor too far. For me and graphically I couldn't see it work as well as the visual example of a frail old man.

I'm really gonna have to read this over the weekend Visually speaking, it might be harder to discern the metaphor, but as a whole it is far more apt than an old man;

1) mutants are a young race, other than anomalies like En Sabah Nur and Selene the race has only begun to manifest in the last 200 hundred years or less. Thus the "old" thing is a failed metaphor.

2) Since you used Morrison as a reference I'll rebut with some Morrison. In New X-Men it was stated that mutants would overtake humanity in a couple generations, meaning a thriving gene pool. Like cancer, the "No more mutants" woogie was an unexpected monkey wrench thrown into the machine that caused something to happen that was unnatural, like the cancerous perversion of cells.

Sebastian Shaw used the Hellfire Club as a means to make more money; mutants are simply another means of profit to him (The Hellfire Club invested in Genosha's stock when they created mutate slaves from mutants in secret). He wanted to isolate the x-factor to custom build mutants at will for profit. He also made billions with his government contracts to build Sentinels. Emma Frost did the similar thing with her Massachusetts Academy to recruit mutants for the Hellfire Club & her conglomerate business, Frost Enterprises.
Exactly, Shaw wasn't a visionary, he was just money and power hungry.

Sebastian Shaw's goals conflicted with Xavier's & Magneto's goals; Shaw did his goals mostly in secret without being on the battlefield himself. I think his line is simply a means to manipulate Xavier; it was a jab at Xavier that he's no better than Magneto. I hadn't thought of that, he could be just antagonizing Xavier.

[ProfeZZor X]

It would make sense for all the high powered eggheads, villains and heroes alike, to come together in agreement for this cause. But Like Shaw said, this shouldn't have been the only time they've come together to resolve mutant issues.

What if there was a mutant planet created?... No, not Asteroid M.

[MartinRedmond]

I think it's pretty daft how every writer's trying to paint Xavier has an ass when he hasn't done anything wrong ever. Shaw was the one engineering Sentinels. I understand no one wants to reread all mutant books, but is it too much to expect editors to know the broad lines of it?

[Omega Alpha]

Sebastian Shaw's goals conflicted with Xavier's & Magneto's goals; Shaw did his goals mostly in secret without being on the battlefield himself. I think his line is simply a means to manipulate Xavier; it was a jab at Xavier that he's no better than Magneto.

And also to say that Xavier is not better than himself, and the three of them are all the same. Of course Shaw isn't the same as the two of them, but that's what he wants Xavier to think.

[MartinRedmond]

shaw is already dressed for the occasion :cool:

Ahaha, is his suit still purple?

[Archer]

The way I read it, back when mutants were first coming out in big numbers, you had these three powerful, influential guys who COULD and SHOULD have had a lasting, positive effect on their people . . . but completely failed.

Shaw used his money and connections to, well, get more money.

Magneto let his paranoia and the horrors of his own past completely dominate all his thinking.

Xavier talked about equality and tried to remove fear of his race . . . but trained a crack strike team and hid them away from the world.

And regardless of all of that, how it actually ended up was Genosha being levelled, Magneto's kids going to the bad, Xavier being thrown out of his own house by his protege, and most of all, the decimation that looks like it could wipe out their entire race.

Regardless of who had good or bad intentions, regardless of who was nuts or sane, they were three very powerful men . . . who instead of making the world better for the people, fought and feuded and schemed and watched their race die out. Since M-day, Magneto and Xavier have both reflected on how badly things turned out, so it was nice to see Shaw actually put it out there.

Loved the issue, btw.

[Archer]

And also to say that Xavier is not better than himself, and the three of them are all the same. Of course Shaw isn't the same as the two of them, but that's what he wants Xavier to think.


I'd say it isn't just what Shaw wants Xavier to think - it's also what Shaw thinks himself. I mean I don't think Shaw wakes up each morning and says "I am EVIL, I am SUCH A BAD MAN!"

Of course, Xavier is free to call BS on Shaw's comments, but at this point he has to be wondering what the hell happened to his dream.

[Beast]

I think it's pretty daft how every writer's trying to paint Xavier has an ass when he hasn't done anything wrong ever. Shaw was the one engineering Sentinels. I understand no one wants to reread all mutant books, but is it too much to expect editors to know the broad lines of it?
I pray that's Sarcasm. Because as Kitty Pryde once said, "Professor X is a jerk."

[MartinRedmond]

Charles is awesome. It's Cycklops and Emma that are annoying. They send kids to defend the school when students shouldn't be even allowed to participate in fights. Cycklops also crippled his own students and he's freaking annoying along with Emma and her generic pseudo intellectual genre.

[Kalen O.]

Charles is awesome. It's Cycklops and Emma that are annoying. They send kids to defend the school when the New Mutants were never allowed to go start real fights outside the school. Cycklops also crippled kids and he's freaking annoying along with Emma and her generic pseudo intellectual genre.

*blinks*

I'm not even sure what to say to that.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Charles is awesome. It's Cycklops and Emma that are annoying. They send kids to defend the school when students shouldn't be even allowed to participate in fights. Cycklops also crippled his own students and he's freaking annoying along with Emma and her generic pseudo intellectual genre.

Two words: Kitty Pryde.

CyCLOPS and Emma didn't exactly invent the whole 'teenage super-heroes' thingy.

And then there's the whole them being saints compared to Chuck and...

Bah, I'll just go with what Kalen said. :eek:

[Beast]

Charles is awesome. It's Cycklops and Emma that are annoying. They send kids to defend the school when students shouldn't be even allowed to participate in fights. Cycklops also crippled his own students and he's freaking annoying along with Emma and her generic pseudo intellectual genre.
Yeah, the guy who lusted after Jean Grey. Had Changeling take his place without telling his trusted students. And wiped the memories of Hank McCoy's hometown including the girl he was going steady with at the time is a wonderful man. Please, Xavier's been a huge dick since the 05 days. :p

[Omega Alpha]

Charles is awesome. It's Cycklops and Emma that are annoying. They send kids to defend the school when students shouldn't be even allowed to participate in fights. Cycklops also crippled his own students and he's freaking annoying along with Emma and her generic pseudo intellectual genre.

LOL! That was hilarious!

Wait, that is a joke, right?:confused:

[CaptainCanada]

Magneto let his paranoia and the horrors of his own past completely dominate all his thinking.
Magneto was certainly defined by his experiences, but he didn't exist in a vacuum; given all the government and private conspiracies against mutants, he didn't come up with the conviction that mutants would never find acceptance on his own.

Xavier talked about equality and tried to remove fear of his race . . . but trained a crack strike team and hid them away from the world.
He made that crack strike team to keep the peace and make the world better; and they did, for all their troubles; who would have helped the Morlocks, or rescued mutants from the clutches of the Friends of Humanity, if not the X-Men? Magneto, maybe; but that would just have swelled his own ranks. Otherwise, no one. There's always been some contrast between the X-Men's mission and the requirements of the superhero genre, but nothing we've seen has ever suggested that the mutant community doesn't need the X-Men.

Regardless of who had good or bad intentions, regardless of who was nuts or sane, they were three very powerful men . . . who instead of making the world better for the people, fought and feuded and schemed and watched their race die out.
Xavier did make the world better for his people; think of how many people the X-Men saved and/or educated over the years. Magneto's legacy is more dubious; his actions as ruler/liberator of Genosha and such probably helped many mutants, but he also became a symbol of everything that was dangerous about mutants, and galvanized opposition. Shaw was never interested in anything other than his own advancement, so that's true. Even if he had wanted to do that, there's no one way to "make the world better"; they could all have different ideas.

And, really, their racing dying out had nothing to do with Xavier or Shaw; Magneto, you again could debate, but Wanda's insanity was derived from the loss of her kids and possibly also her powers, not just his shoddy parenting. The mutant race got completely sideswiped, it didn't stagnate or decline as a result of a lack of leadership.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Magneto didn't let paranoia take over. Magneto was Right. The mutants of the world did experience another holocaust and it was mostly because of humans, Cassandra Nova, and Wanda. It happened just like he said it would happen. Not to mention Civil War even added more to his original point. Xavier's dream was never close to coming to fruition. Not once. Sebastian Shaw has always had delusions of grandeur and it kept him aloft in his business world. He's part of the problem that Magneto always talked though. A selfish, self serving mutant that was more concerned about financial matters than ever really serving his own race. The funding of sentinels will always be his biggest contribution to the race war and after the Genoshan massacre, that's not a good thing to have on your resume.

[Anna]

All three were visionaries; from Charles' viewpoint the others went off track. He does not see that flaw in himself.

[CaptainCanada]

The mutants of the world did experience another holocaust and it was mostly because of humans, Cassandra Nova, and Wanda. It happened just like he said it would happen.
The destruction of Genosha was caused by some weird alien/parasite thing, not anything humans did; the depowering of the mutant race (which isn't really analogous to the Holocaust) happened at the hands of a mutant, not a human. Neither event happened like Magneto said it would happen.

[Anna]

The destruction of Genosha was caused by some weird alien/parasite thing, not anything humans did; the depowering of the mutant race (which isn't really analogous to the Holocaust) happened at the hands of a mutant, not a human. Neither event happened like Magneto said it would happen.


Problem being that most people don't know that.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

The destruction of Genosha was caused by some weird alien/parasite thing, not anything humans did; the depowering of the mutant race (which isn't really analogous to the Holocaust) happened at the hands of a mutant, not a human. Neither event happened like Magneto said it would happen.

One of the reason I just can't quite adhere 100% to the whole 'Magneto was right' thingy...

[Omega Alpha]

Magneto was certainly defined by his experiences, but he didn't exist in a vacuum; given all the government and private conspiracies against mutants, he didn't come up with the conviction that mutants would never find acceptance on his own.

Just because they are out there to get you, it doesn't mean you're not paranoid. ;)


He made that crack strike team to keep the peace and make the world better; and they did, for all their troubles; who would have helped the Morlocks, or rescued mutants from the clutches of the Friends of Humanity, if not the X-Men? Magneto, maybe; but that would just have swelled his own ranks. Otherwise, no one. There's always been some contrast between the X-Men's mission and the requirements of the superhero genre, but nothing we've seen has ever suggested that the mutant community doesn't need the X-Men.

That should be a "duh!" thing, specially on a forum like this.



Xavier did make the world better for his people; think of how many people the X-Men saved and/or educated over the years.

Every single being on the universe had his or hers life saved by the X-men at one point.



Magneto's legacy is more dubious; his actions as ruler/liberator of Genosha and such probably helped many mutants, but he also became a symbol of everything that was dangerous about mutants, and galvanized opposition.

Magneto caused more problems than he solved...


And, really, their racing dying out had nothing to do with Xavier or Shaw; Magneto, you again could debate, but Wanda's insanity was derived from the loss of her kids and possibly also her powers, not just his shoddy parenting. The mutant race got completely sideswiped, it didn't stagnate or decline as a result of a lack of leadership.

Magneto wasn't a bad parent because he didn't even knew he was Wanda's father until she grew up.

[Archer]

Re Magneto being right - uhm yeah, he was completely right, if Wanda was motivated by her human bigotry and fear of mutants, or if Cassandra Nova was scared of what mutants represented and had Genosha flattened to protect humanity . . . oh wait, that's not what happened, and Magneto was totally wrong about the real, viable threats to mutants.

Actually, if Magneto hadn't been a separatist, he wouldn't have tried to gather so many mutants together . . . and they wouldn't have been such an easy target for when the *real* bad guy came along.

Not sure of the answer to this question - but have any purely human forces ever posed a real, serious threat to mutant survival? Everything I can think of that almost wiped them out wasn't actually *human* - the only possible exception I can think of is DoFP, which was averted anyway.

Also - did anyone non-completely-crazy ever say "Magneto was right"?

Magneto was certainly defined by his experiences, but he didn't exist in a vacuum; given all the government and private conspiracies against mutants, he didn't come up with the conviction that mutants would never find acceptance on his own.

Sure, but he didn't help, what with all the mutant terrorist attacks and things . . . and by gathering so many mutants together in one place he also made them a sitting target for Cassandra Nova.

He made that crack strike team to keep the peace and make the world better; and they did, for all their troubles; who would have helped the Morlocks, or rescued mutants from the clutches of the Friends of Humanity, if not the X-Men? Magneto, maybe; but that would just have swelled his own ranks. Otherwise, no one. There's always been some contrast between the X-Men's mission and the requirements of the superhero genre, but nothing we've seen has ever suggested that the mutant community doesn't need the X-Men.

Yes, he did - when mutants were a new, growing race, he very much helped a lot of individuals, and his team very much saved the world a few times.

I'm not disputing that. What I'm disputing is that his vision had a real, lasting effect on the world beyond those individuals he helped.

If Xavier founded the X-Men as a way to get in the superhero line of business, yes, they worked very well and did a lot of good stuff. If he founded them as a way to help individuals, yes, he certainly did that . . . and the fact that there are practically no mutants left now wouldn't make any difference.

But did he? It strikes me that he founded the X-Men at least in part to promote mutant rights, to protect mutants, to help mutants learn about their powers, to help his race integrate with normal humans, and to fight prejudice.

In the light of Decimation, was that a success? IMO no it wasn't, and not only was it not a success but a lot of it is completely moot now anyway.


Shaw was never interested in anything other than his own advancement, so that's true. Even if he had wanted to do that, there's no one way to "make the world better"; they could all have different ideas.

Wow - if three guys like Shaw, Magneto, and Xavier had worked together (yes - people with different agendas can actually come together and work toward a common good) they couldn't possibly have made the world better? Heh, that's depressing.

And, really, their racing dying out had nothing to do with Xavier or Shaw; Magneto, you again could debate, but Wanda's insanity was derived from the loss of her kids and possibly also her powers, not just his shoddy parenting. The mutant race got completely sideswiped, it didn't stagnate or decline as a result of a lack of leadership.

I'm not saying they caused it.

I'm saying that as leaders in their respective arears, for *decades*, with all the power, allies, influence . . . they still were completely unable to prevent it. That's the point I got from it - not that they screwed up and destroyed their race, but that they completely failed to forsee or prevent what *actually* destroyed their race.

As for Wanda's insanity not being caused by Magneto and Xavier, again, I agree - *but* they were also unable to prevent it. Xavier's been training mutants to use their powers in a same and manageable way for how long? And yet, when one of his best and oldest friends brings him his daughter and says "Help" . . . Xavier was completely unable to do so. Magneto has been wanting to be a leader and protector of mutants for how long? And yet he's unable to protect his own daughter, he's unable to prevent his own son from screwing up the whole world.

Even if Shaw knows absolutely nothing about any of that, he does know that there were these three guys who each thought of themselves as a great leader among mutants . . . and under their leadership, the race is dying, and no-one has any ideas at all how to fix it.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

The destruction of Genosha was caused by some weird alien/parasite thing, not anything humans did; the depowering of the mutant race (which isn't really analogous to the Holocaust) happened at the hands of a mutant, not a human. Neither event happened like Magneto said it would happen.

The Destruction of Genosha was caused by human sentinels and Xavier's sister. 16 million gone in a blink of an eye and the only reason Magneto wasn't able to stop it was because the X-Men tried to kill him YET AGAIN just two issues prior. Magneto's daughter, Wanda, in a fragmented state of mind pretty much ruined mutantkind and it was all on some shaky premises. She was so out of her mind she acted like Magneto had raised her or something and that was enough in her mind to blame him to the point where she could justify what she did. Magneto LONG ago said that infighting instead of working together would lead to bloodshed and he has always stated the true danger level of humans. Magneto was proven right by these two events. Xavier was wrong. His X-Men were too late. Where he stuck his neck out to make a safe land for mutants by taking Genosha by force, the X-Men resented that and eventually led the crusade that brought that mutant paradise to an end. When you analyze it, no one was more right than Magneto. Not Xavier. Not Apocalypse. Not Sinster. Not Beast. Not Bishop or Cable. No...it was Magneto's proclaimations that were painfully truthful and now look at the result. Mutantkind is apparently doomed and it's going to take something where even the most keen of scientific minds will be at lost of words which will result in some solution.

He was right. While the X-Men and Shaw got bullied around by the Zero Tolerence that the govt approved, Magneto did something about it and gave mutants a home. That can never be changed. That's in history, despite what means he used. He was the ONLY one strong enough and with enough courage to do it. But that's the way it's always been. Magneto was the realist while Xavier was the idealist. That's how this whole thing started.

[Archer]

Out of interest, am I the only diehard Magneto fan on this board that doesn't think he was right about everything and never on morally shady ground? :p

[CaptainCanada]

16 million gone in a blink of an eye and the only reason Magneto wasn't able to stop it was because the X-Men tried to kill him YET AGAIN just two issues prior.
They fought Magneto because in "Eve of Destruction" he preemptively attacked the mansion, abducted Professor X, and was on the verge of war with the the entire world.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

But that still led to the death of 16 million mutants. That's what usually happens. When Magneto isn't able to protect mutants because of such circumstances, it ends up costing mutantkind and costing them big. The X-Men once again came up short in defending their race when it mattered.

[steve2275]

Ahaha, is his suit still purple?
its more gray

[CaptainCanada]

But that still led to the death of 16 million mutants.
And Magneto brought it upon himself.

[Archer]

And Magneto brought it upon himself.

Yes but apparently, if Magneto decides to attack people, and the X-Men retaliate injuring Magneto, if Magneto then can't defend his people . . . it's the X-Men's fault. Heh.

I love Magneto, he's without a doubt my favourite Marvel character, but a huge part of *why* is that despite often having the best intentions he has made some truly awful mistakes.