Jack Hawksmoor

[nihil_domini]

Is it me or has everyone forgotten about him? Post Miss. Sparks he as been the most prolific of the Authority. Now it's just all about the Midi. Is it because he's gay? Because that would be a stupid reason.

[JoeK32880]

Midnighter is the most popular because people like the badasses. Midnighter's always been the most popular member of Authority.

[anthony devlin]

Is it me or has everyone forgotten about him? Post Miss. Sparks he as been the most prolific of the Authority. Now it's just all about the Midi. Is it because he's gay? Because that would be a stupid reason.

i think Sparks was always the most popular (or well remembered) because of the way Ellis wrote her from StormWatch onwards. for me its always been a toss up between Jack, angie and Midnighter. personally as much as a like Midnigher, i prefer Angie to him and Jack. i do think some of midnighters appeal is that he is gay, whether this is the the main factor in his coolness, i dunno. he did appear in comics around the time it was seen as being 'cool' to either be gay, or know someone who is gay (the media in the UK is odd at times). so maybe is does factor into it, somewhere...?

[DWEarhart]

Midnighter being gay was never a big deal until after Warren Ellis left Authority. Midnighter kicked ass, but he happened to be gay, then, he became a gay guy who kicked ass.

It's never been that big a deal to me, but I do prefer Ellis' treatment to the character above anyone elses.

[Subotai]

Ennis' Midnighter is a guy who kicks ass. His defining qualities are his brutality and his solitude.

As for Hawksmoor - I don't think they ever did a good job of illustrating how he fell into the role of commanding the Authority when Jenny died. He was no longer a New Yorker who was not completely comfortable with his powers except when he was jumping from building to building. He became more of a generic leader.

[Froggy]

Jack is my fav character in the authority.smarmy bastard

[Pól Rua]

Is it me or has everyone forgotten about him? Post Miss. Sparks he as been the most prolific of the Authority. Now it's just all about the Midi. Is it because he's gay? Because that would be a stupid reason.

I lost interest in Jack when he went from being a guy who nearly lost it after he was forced to kill someone in an issue of 'Stormwatch' to being an elitist sociopath who routinely punches people's jaws off because he doesn't like their politics in 'The Authority'.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I lost interest in Jack when he went from being a guy who nearly lost it after he was forced to kill someone in an issue of 'Stormwatch' to being an elitist sociopath who routinely punches people's jaws off because he doesn't like their politics in 'The Authority'.

I could handle that, as most of The Authority who came from StormWatch seemed to have a massive priority shift as a result of their StormWatch days (seeing the Bleed seemed to make them realise their own insignifigance).
I lost a lot of interest in him after Millar gave him, gave all of them, contradictory and boring origins in the Jenny Sparks mini-series. Having him mentioned as being in an orgy was off putting as well.

[shaxper]

I don't care about Hawksmoor because his characterization keeps changing. Ellis wrote him as a strange but likable half alien in the shadows, Millar wrote him as some overly excitable bad-ass, and I won't even get into what they did with him in Captain Atom: Armaggeddon. I loved the Ellis character but, since then, he hasn't been a very likable character for me. I enjoyed watching him tell off world leaders from time to time, but it would have been far more enjoyable coming from the mouth of Jenny Sparks.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I enjoyed watching him tell off world leaders from time to time, but it would have been far more enjoyable coming from the mouth of Jenny Sparks.

Killing her off was the best thing Ellis ever did for her character.

Shame they let Millar write the miniseries. Seeing her in a three way with Einstein wasn't nesseccary, nor were references to her sleeping with Hitler.

[anthony devlin]

nor were references to her sleeping with Hitler.

I don’t remember that. I know it made reference to her befriending a young Hitler, and showed her giving him the idea to get into politics.. Which i put down to the fact that as the spirit of the century then she is responsible for shaping the century; and nothing shaped the century more than WWI, but i don’t recall any reference being made to her sleeping with him. In fact i recall it saying she never saw him again past the point of her childhood encounter until she encountered him again whilst trying to rescue the Tibetan egg.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I don’t remember that. I know it made reference to her befriending a young Hitler, and showed her giving him the idea to get into politics.. Which i put down to the fact that as the spirit of the century then she is responsible for shaping the century; and nothing shaped the century more than WWI, but i don’t recall any reference being made to her sleeping with him. In fact i recall it saying she never saw him again past the point of her childhood encounter until she encountered him again whilst trying to rescue the Tibetan egg.

In the mini there's a reference to her having slept with all three of the major players in WW2.
I took that to mean Hitler, Stalin and either Churchill or Roosevelt.

Though thanks for reminding me of the tibetan egg. That was the issue where we got to see that she'd slept with Shen, despite no past or future reference to either of them being bi-sexual.

[anthony devlin]

If she had slept with three, then I feel it would more than likely have been Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt. Hitler seemed quite taken back to see her, to much so to convince me he has seen her since her childhood when they first met.. let alone sleep with her.



Though thanks for reminding me of the tibetan egg. That was the issue where we got to see that she'd slept with Shen, despite no past or future reference to either of them being bi-sexual.

True. But having said that, the sexuality of the characters has never really been feature heavily outside of the obvious - middy & Apollo, Angie & Jack. The others have had hints - Shen with Grunge, Doc with Angie and his wife, Jenny with Elijah and the prince from Albion, but nothing that could conclusively define them as heterosexual. Jenny and Shen being bisexual under these circumstances is totally plausible, more so for Jenny, IMO.

[hawkeyefan]

I don't think Millar wrote the Jenny Sparks mini, did he? I think I remember it being Robbie Morrison.....though I could definitely be wrong.

As for Hawksmoor, I've liked the character since he first appeared. Though I agree he was portrayed quite differently in Stormwatch and The Authority, I felt that enough had happened to him that the changes could be justified. Learning that there are multiple realities and seeing the woman who inspired you die saving the world can change a person, I would bet.

[ultramandingo]

..........when was the last time hawksmoor punched someone in the brains ?

[anthony devlin]

I don't think Millar wrote the Jenny Sparks mini, did he? I think I remember it being Robbie Morrison.....though I could definitely be wrong..

yep, it was Millar.

[hawkeyefan]

yep, it was Millar.

I didn't realize that.

Either way, though....I prtty much ignore that series as any kind of canonical material. To me, it seemed like it was meant to be just a fun romp.

[anthony devlin]

Either way, though....I prtty much ignore that series as any kind of canonical material. To me, it seemed like it was meant to be just a fun romp.

well it kind of re-wrote Shen's origins.. so im not sure to what extent i can be ignored. :confused:

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

If she had slept with three, then I feel it would more than likely have been Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt. Hitler seemed quite taken back to see her, to much so to convince me he has seen her since her childhood when they first met.. let alone sleep with her.

You have a lot more faith than I do that the mini actually had some thought put into it.



True. But having said that, the sexuality of the characters has never really been feature heavily outside of the obvious - middy & Apollo, Angie & Jack. The others have had hints - Shen with Grunge, Doc with Angie and his wife, Jenny with Elijah and the prince from Albion, but nothing that could conclusively define them as heterosexual. Jenny and Shen being bisexual under these circumstances is totally plausible, more so for Jenny, IMO.

There was no evidence of Jenny being bisexual in any of her past appearances, and Ellis went into her past and character a fair bit.

And what circumstances make them being bisexual make sense?
Beyond Millar writing his comic as a wank fantasy, there was no reason or even story logic for it.
(Including the fact that it contradicts Stormwatch to have had them knowing each other before they worked together in StormWatch).

[hawkeyefan]

well it kind of re-wrote Shen's origins.. so im not sure to what extent i can be ignored. :confused:

Ummm....it's pretty easy, actually. You just ignore it.

It isn't like any of the ideas from that mini ever entered the picture in the regular Authority series while Millar was writing it.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Ummm....it's pretty easy, actually. You just ignore it.

It isn't like any of the ideas from that mini ever entered the picture in the regular Authority series while Millar was writing it.

Yup, the mini was so bad, even it's author didn't want to deal with it.

[anthony devlin]

There was no evidence of Jenny being bisexual in any of her past appearances, and Ellis went into her past and character a fair bit.

No he didn’t. He did on arc in Stormwatch covering key points in her 100 years. That’s hardly a detailed look at her past.


And what circumstances make them being bisexual make sense?
Beyond Millar writing his comic as a wank fantasy, there was no reason or even story logic for it.

I never said it made sense, i said it was plausible given that no one had touched on either’s sexuality before in detail.. and given that Jenny is a spirit and effects the era she born too, you could argue she was responsible for the changing attitudes towards sexuality. Therefore her being or having a bisexual encounter changed that.


(Including the fact that it contradicts Stormwatch to have had them knowing each other before they worked together in StormWatch).

Well no, you see, it never shows the two having met before StormWatch, only that she rescued her when still in the Egg during WWII. no reference is made to whether she actually gets to know her after she is hatched. the following scene where she asks Jenny to come back to bed is set in the present on the Carrier. so im not sure how you came to the conclusion that they had both met before stormwatch, when this was never shown.. and please tell me when a re-write has actually ever made 100% sense? they never do, but that hasn't stopped writer doing them when they feel they have a far more interesting take on a character. and given the heavy weight status Ellis gave to th other members of the team i always felt Shen was a little out of place. Millar giveing her almost God-like status rectified that for me. i'm not saying im a huge fan of the entire piece, but aspects i do like.



It isn't like any of the ideas from that mini ever entered the picture in the regular Authority series while Millar was writing it.

where would there have been a need though? the mini was only meant to serve as a look at how the team formed post stormwatch and pre-authority. i cant see what anyone would need to reference from that even if they wanted too. and isn't Shen's new origin made reference to in Revolution. so some points have been referenced.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

No he didn’t. He did on arc in Stormwatch covering key points in her 100 years. That’s hardly a detailed look at her past.

I never said it made sense, i said it was plausible given that no one had touched on either’s sexuality before in detail.. and given that Jenny is a spirit and effects the era she born too, you could argue she was responsible for the changing attitudes towards sexuality. Therefore her being or having a bisexual encounter changed that.

I'm sure she commented on Apollo and Midnighter in a way that you wouldn't expect a bisexual to at one point, and if not, it really doesn't fit her personality to be bisexual - the way she talked and acted gave no hint of it, and as she was an open person I'm sure it would have been mentioned.
And if the scene with Shen was set on the carrier, it makes even less sense - their was no chemistry or flirting or anything between the two, and Shen was no more upset than anyone else at Jenny's death.

Actually, I don't even know why I'm bothering, much like the rest of Millar's run, the addition was ill-thought out and shoe-horned in.
He seemed to be using the book as some sort of commentary about superheroes being wank fantasies and not much else.

[anthony devlin]

I'm sure she commented on Apollo and Midnighter in a way that you wouldn't expect a bisexual to at one point and if not, it really doesn't fit her personality to be bisexual

what? And how prey tell does a bisexual reference someone sexuality differently than someone else. im sorry, but how she makes reference to Middy and Apollo has no bearing whatsoever on her own sexuality at all.


the way she talked and acted gave no hint of it, and as she was an open person I'm sure it would have been mentioned.

I wasn’t aware bisexuals acted and spoke differently. You do realise there are some gay/bi people who don’t have this need to tell everyone they come into contact with that they are either gay or bi. And other than the two failed relationship she had over her 100-years, her sex life wasn’t much touched upon at all. so whether your sure it would be touched upon, or not, doesn’t really matter, or change the fact it was touched upon.. only in a story, by a writer, you don’t much care for.


And if the scene with Shen was set on the carrier, it makes even less sense - their was no chemistry or flirting or anything between the two,

Well given the fact the scene shows that Shen has just woke up, im given to believe that flirting is high on the list of things to do. I know im not much of flirt first thing when I wake up.


and Shen was no more upset than anyone else at Jenny's death.

Why would she, it only implied they’d slept together, not that they were in love. You can sleep with someone and not love them, that’s one of the joys of casual sex.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

what? And how prey tell does a bisexual reference someone sexuality differently than someone else. im sorry, but how she makes reference to Middy and Apollo has no bearing whatsoever on her own sexuality at all.



I wasn’t aware bisexuals acted and spoke differently. You do realise there are some gay/bi people who don’t have this need to tell everyone they come into contact with that they are either gay or bi. And other than the two failed relationship she had over her 100-years, her sex life wasn’t much touched upon at all. so whether your sure it would be touched upon, or not, doesn’t really matter, or change the fact it was touched upon.. only in a story, by a writer, you don’t much care for.


Yup, I'm a big ol'homophobe I am.
Didn't she call them 'poofs'? Didn't she smirk when they kissed?
If she was having it off with the girl standing next to her, isn't that an odd reaction?
I'm not saying she was a homophobe like me, I'm just saying she had an odd way of carrying herself.

Also, Ellis as a writer would have mentioned it. It's just the sort of writer he is.

I actually do like Millar as a writer, but his Authority work was dreadful.



Well given the fact the scene shows that Shen has just woke up, im given to believe that flirting is high on the list of things to do. I know im not much of flirt first thing when I wake up.

Yes, but at some other point you would have expected to see them flirt, if it actually made any sense.
Why are they sleeping together if they felt no attraction?


Why would she, it only implied they’d slept together, not that they were in love. You can sleep with someone and not love them, that’s one of the joys of casual sex.

Yup, but you still take it bad when the person your shagging dies. It hits you a bit harder.

[anthony devlin]

Yup, I'm a big ol'homophobe I am.
Didn't she call them 'poofs'? Didn't she smirk when they kissed?
If she was having it off with the girl standing next to her, isn't that an odd reaction?
I'm not saying she was a homophobe like me, I'm just saying she had an odd way of carrying herself.

No, its not an odd remark at all - its called winding them up. especially midnighter, given he likes to come over as the hard guy - she was taking the mick out of his feelings for Apollo. And i know she isnt a homophobe; she never took me as being narrow minded in that respect.


Also, Ellis as a writer would have mentioned it. It's just the sort of writer he is.

no. he would have mentioned it if he felt it was worth mentioning. he does believe that his readers have the ability to read into situations without having to be told A from B. and for the final time he never addressed the sexualities of most of the characters, your just assuming that they must be heterosexual, it was never a given, so its all in your assumptions.


Yes, but at some other point you would have expected to see them flirt, if it actually made any sense.
Why are they sleeping together if they felt no attraction?

yes, and had this been written before Ellis' run we might have seen it. but it wasn’t. but thats the problem with re-writes - they don’t always make sense or fit in well.



Yup, but you still take it bad when the person your shagging dies. It hits you a bit harder.

there were how many panels after her death scene to convey this? and again, Millar's version came after Ellis, so i would assume any really grieving took place off-panel. But this is a moot point when you take into consideration that any grieving Angie must have gone through; who was shown to have a fairly close relationship with Jenny yet she wasn’t shown to be too distraught, must have also been done off panel. Nor was Apollo, who Jenny herself said she felt comfortable talking too about personal things. He was not shown to be too distraught over her passing either.

[Kid Seven]

I loved Ellis' Hawksmoor from his run on Authority. Great character. Can keep or leave 'im after that...