So Hulk is a TERRORIST/VILLIAN??

[The_DUKE_inc]

Been gone from Marvel for quite a bit? Now I hear Hulk is a global terrorist or something threatening to destroy earth and dresses like a Gladiator knock-off?? Fill me in on why he is dressed like he's from 4th century AD? Why this whole WWH?! What happened to the gentle giant who wanted to be left alone?

[hyzmarca]

Yep, Hulk threatened to smash the entire planet, but he is completely righteous in doing so. A Puny Nike Fury LMD begs Hulk to save the world from a rouge nuclear satellite and Hulk agrees to help. After saving the world, he learns that Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, Mr. Fantastic, and Iron Man have sabotaged his ride home and he is sent careening through a wormhole to the farthest reaches of the universe.

He saves this planet from a genocidal despotic emperor, becomes emperor himself, unifies the many warring races of this planet in peace and harmony, and gets married to a badass warrior woman whose strength rivals his own. Then, the space shuttle that the aforementioned "heroes" sabotaged blows up, killing one million people, including Hulk's pregnant wife.

The way he sees things, the Strange, Black Bolt, Mr. Fantastic, and Iron Man are the terrorists and the governments of Earth are harboring them.

His gladiator garb comes from the fact that he was a gladiator. When he first came out of the wormhole and landed on the planet Sakkar who was so weakened that the emperor's men were able to make him a slave and force him to fight and His tiara is a symbol of his office as Emperor.

Read planet hulk for more information.

[Exo]

Yep, Hulk threatened to smash the entire planet, but he is completely righteous in doing so.

There's no such thing as justifiable murder. No excuse in the world for the murder of innocents.

And righteousness has nothing to do with it. Hulk's insane.

[Quinch]

True no excuse for the murder of innocents. Yet it goes on every day in wars around the world.
I personally don't belive Hulk would smash the earth if he didn't get the Illuminati to face him though. I understand that this is up for debate, but as has been mentioned is it really any different from smashing Iraq?
Yes, Hulk's insane (not a newsflash) but not evil. He really belives he is in the right. Makes him much more dangerous.

[hyzmarca]

There are no innocents in war, only soldiers and collaborators.

[Quinch]

There are no innocents in war, only soldiers and collaborators.

I hope thats not your own quote!

[Morw]

The threat Hulk made seemed more like something he said to get their attention. I dont see Hulk rounding up every human in the wolrd to beat them up. But that he will do something if they dont show and in that way ensure that they dont run and hide from him. He is playing at their sense of herosim. If they run he will go after somebody else. somebody who didnt have anything to do with it.

If he was pure evil then he would land in NY and starts smashin, not giving them time to evacuate the city, He choose a battleground and is going to punish those who hurt him and destroyed his world ( in his eyes). And he is going to make an excample out of it. hench why NY city. They cant hide that fact that he is leveling NY from the news. And in Marvel then evacuate NY in 24 hours should be no problem.

[Dorsai]

There's no such thing as justifiable murder. No excuse in the world for the murder of innocents.

And righteousness has nothing to do with it. Hulk's insane.

I submit to you that WWH isn't a morality story but a revenge story. Much like the movie Payback but instead of Mel Gibson in a trenchcoat and James Coburn with alligator skin luggage, you have the former King and widower Hulk going after the Illumanati gang.

But I wouldn't say the Hulk is insane. This whole thing is premeditated to a degree that would make Dr. Doom smile with envy. I think if he was truly crazy he would have just started punching his way to the core of the planet and then ripped the planet apart. This is much more calculated.

[XPac]

There's no such thing as justifiable murder. No excuse in the world for the murder of innocents.

And righteousness has nothing to do with it. Hulk's insane.

Perhaps I'm giving Hulk too much credit, but I don't actually think he's planning on going around murdering innocent people. I think he's just making the threat in order to get the Illuminati out.

I'm not even sure he murdered Black Bolt, so I'm definately iffy about him actually going through with murdering innocent people.

Or at least that's my take on it so far. Again, perhaps I'm giving Hulk too much credit.

[clarkstark]

There's no such thing as justifiable murder. No excuse in the world for the murder of innocents.

And righteousness has nothing to do with it. Hulk's insane.





I absolutely agree. If Banner were able to communicate, he would say "the Hulk must be stopped at ALL costs!" :D

[Syzygy]

I absolutely agree. If Banner were able to communicate, he would say "the Hulk must be stopped at ALL costs!" :D

Wouldn't that be ironic, then, if Banner, believing that, had blown the warp core himself, as another poster suggested?

[clarkstark]

Wouldn't that be ironic, then, if Banner, believing that, had blown the warp core himself, as another poster suggested?



Yeah it would, but Banner would have to know the hulk would survive the blast.
It has to be one of the warbound who did it to keep the hulk mad & vengeful.

[Quinch]

Devil Hulk did it :)

[Captain Mobra]

You'll get opinions from both Hulk-fanboys and Hulk-haters. The facts are that some of Earth's mightiest heros tricked Hulk, sent him into space thinking he'd be better off, the Hulk then forged a place for himself and eventually became King of the planet he landed on, then an explosion went off killing the family the Hulk had developed there. He thinks the Illuminati did it, so he's declaring a World War.

There's some details not accounted for, like the fact that his ship hit a wormhole that it wasn't "supposed to" and the fact that there is no proof that the Illuminati caused the explosion, but that's the jist of it.

Basically both sides come off as terrible people if you look at it from an abject manner.

[Jaykob]

What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make moral arguments for one side over the other. As someone else pointed out, this isn't a morality story, it's a revenge story. It's OK to root for the guy that, in real life, you might find morally reprehensible. If anything, this story humanizes both sides by pointing out their inherent flaws. Sometimes heroes do things that aren't heroic. Sometimes they are as susceptible to bad judgment, anger, hate, pride, arrogance as the people they try to protect. I think that's the main strength of the tale being told.

[patch]

Wouldn't that be ironic, then, if Banner, believing that, had blown the warp core himself, as another poster suggested?


that wouldnt make sense ...because when banner showed during planet hulk he saw that sakaar was a place almost made for the hulk and where they both could find some measure of peace.

[sookibong]

I think we idealistic hero worshippers neglect the fact that many people in the real world subscribe to the "eye for an eye" mentality. I've heard many people argue that we "shoulda just nuked the Arab world" after 9/11.

[Pendaran]

Yep, Hulk threatened to smash the entire planet, but he is completely righteous in doing so.


There are no innocents in war, only soldiers and collaborators.

What exactly is righteous about threatening to kill millions of people who have nothing to do with anything that happened to the Hulk? Why do you feel some need to have it thusly viewed?

I'm not asking for a historical example, I'm asking how you, specifically personally believe that the idea of millions of people dying in a war that have nothing to do with it (i.e. women, children, the elderly, and the like) is a good and justifiable thing.

[jigrig]

What I don't understand is why people feel the need to make moral arguments for one side over the other. As someone else pointed out, this isn't a morality story, it's a revenge story. It's OK to root for the guy that, in real life, you might find morally reprehensible. If anything, this story humanizes both sides by pointing out their inherent flaws. Sometimes heroes do things that aren't heroic. Sometimes they are as susceptible to bad judgment, anger, hate, pride, arrogance as the people they try to protect. I think that's the main strength of the tale being told.

If You dont believe Him just read The Old Testament.

[Cain Marko]

There's no such thing as justifiable murder. No excuse in the world for the murder of innocents.



Murder of innocents being spoken of as irredeemable and unjustifiable. Hmmm. You can definately tell this isn't an X-board. ;)



And righteousness has nothing to do with it. Hulk's insane.

He seems very Maestro-esque from the sound of it. I wonder how/if they're going to redeem Hulk after all this.

[Karl J Barnes]

Murder of innocents being spoken of as irredeemable and unjustifiable. Hmmm. You can definately tell this isn't an X-board. ;)



He seems very Maestro-esque from the sound of it. I wonder how/if they're going to redeem Hulk after all this.


I hope that they don't try,at least, not right away. I'd actually hope that Hulk stays in his brutal/savage phase for a while. Maybe even escaping Earth and go somewhere else(space/ another dimension). I want him to stay a monster.

Which is what Hulk is really. He's a Monster, maybe The Monster. I think that is what this mini-series is about. To show that no matter how he(the Hulk) strives to be "human" that eventually, he is a monster and nothing short of his death,possibly, will change that aspect of him.

Yes, I still hope that Hulk will somehow find some type of redemption and peace,but since he is a creature of rage of unspoken emotions that it will be hard for Marvel to bring him back into the fold realistically. After these events in WWH, he will ultimately be the Outsider, the Pariah, The Monster. It is his fate/doom.

[Jaykob]

If You dont believe Him just read The Old Testament.

wait a second...huh?

[Karl J Barnes]

wait a second...huh?

I concur.;)

[RangerNec]

Hulk is not a terrorist.
He is a foriegn head-of-state (Emperor of the Planet Sakaar) who has formally declared war on the planet Earth and Attilan until he has captured/killed four individuals that he believes are terrorists that caused a global catastrophic event on his planet. (Tony Stark, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, and Reed Richards)

[ivesaidway2much]

After these events in WWH, he will ultimately be the Outsider, the Pariah, The Monster. It is his fate/doom.How is this different from the last 40 or so years of the Hulk's existence?

[Captain Mobra]

Hulk is not a terrorist.
He is a foriegn head-of-state (Emperor of the Planet Sakaar) who has formally declared war on the planet Earth and Attilan until he has captured/killed four individuals that he believes are terrorists that caused a global catastrophic event on his planet. (Tony Stark, Dr. Strange, Black Bolt, and Reed Richards)So. War criminal? Is that correct enough?

[ivesaidway2much]

So. War criminal? Is that correct enough?What exactly has he done to earn the label war criminal? Giving civilians time to evacuate before the fighting starts hardly seems to fit, IMO.

[Karl J Barnes]

How is this different from the last 40 or so years of the Hulk's existence?

There always has been hopes that Hulk could be a hero, in the truest sense of the word. He was one of the founding memebers of the Defenders, though viewed a monster from his very first appearance, he really didn't earn it so much as have it thrust upon him.

So, though Hulk has been seen as an outsider/monster,etc. His forty years in comics has always held out hope that he become more than he was preceived to be and at times, he did achieve some heroic measure. I just think that after his World War that there will be little hope at redemption for him.

[Abomination]

So. War criminal? Is that correct enough?


Depends on if he wins or not. I don't think the winners regularly prosecute themselves for war crimes. At least not the Big leaders. Sure some second lieutenant somewhere might take a fall but that is about it.

[Jaykob]

There always has been hopes that Hulk could be a hero, in the truest sense of the word. He was one of the founding memebers of the Defenders, though viewed a monster from his very first appearance, he really didn't earn it so much as have it thrust upon him.

So, though Hulk has been seen as an outsider/monster,etc. His forty years in comics has always held out hope that he become more than he was preceived to be and at times, he did achieve some heroic measure. I just think that after his World War that there will be little hope at redemption for him.

Redemption from whom? And a hero in whose eyes? To the people of Sakaar he was the greatest hero they had ever known. He freed them from a tyrannical dictator. After the fighting was over he made peace between the various people's and concentrated his efforts on rebuilding a broken world. He appeared to be a fair and impartial leader worthy of the respect and adulation from his people. Then it was all taken away.

The his Warbound (barring any secret betrayal), I believe he still is viewed that way. This is an issue of perspective. The Hulk has changed his identity. He no longer looks at himself as an earthling. He's a Sakaarian. One cultures devil is another's angel so to speak. The Hulk is an outsider by choice now and that's the inherent difference between the past and present Hulks.

But is he any less of a hero? Depends which side you ask. Is he past redemption? Depends who he seeks redemption from. This isn't a black and white issue here.

[Love Machine]

Hulk now has more in common with Dr Doom than any other character in the MU, at least by judging from WWH#1

Of course one man's terrorist is another's hero/freedom fighter, which is what makes WWH such a wonderful premise and why I enjoyed the heck outta the first issue...

[Love Machine]

Hulk now has more in common with Dr Doom than any other character in the MU, at least by judging from WWH#1

Of course one man's terrorist is another's hero/freedom fighter, which is what makes WWH such a wonderful premise and why I enjoyed the heck outta the first issue...

[Love Machine]

Hulk now has more in common with Dr Doom than any other character in the MU, at least by judging from WWH#1

Of course one man's terrorist is another's hero/freedom fighter, which is what makes WWH such a wonderful premise and why I enjoyed the heck outta the first issue...

[Love Machine]

Hulk now has more in common with Dr Doom than any other character in the MU, at least by judging from WWH#1

Of course one man's terrorist is another's hero/freedom fighter, which is what makes WWH such a wonderful premise and why I enjoyed the heck outta the first issue...

[Captain Mobra]

What exactly has he done to earn the label war criminal? Giving civilians time to evacuate before the fighting starts hardly seems to fit, IMO.Nothing. Yet. It's called World War Hulk. He intends to assault the leader of a government agency directly. I admit that is unfounded at this point, though. Technically there's also the issue of whether or not this is deemed a "war" by the United Staes/United Nations. That 's really what defines if he's a terrorist or a warlord.

[ivesaidway2much]

Nothing. Yet. It's called World War Hulk. He intends to assault the leader of a government agency directly. I admit that is unfounded at this point, though. Technically there's also the issue of whether or not this is deemed a "war" by the United Staes/United Nations. That 's really what defines if he's a terrorist or a warlord.By what right does United Nations or U.S. get to decide whether a government from another planet is legit? Do they get to go and judge which Kree planets legally belong to the empire. Are all the planets that have not been "discovered" by 616 Earth essentially living in lawless anarchy until the U.N. decides if their government is official?

[Pendaran]

Technically there's also the issue of whether or not this is deemed a "war" by the United Staes/United Nations. That 's really what defines if he's a terrorist or a warlord.

Well, backing up his demands with "do as I say or I'll destroy the entire city, then kill humanity" can't really be helping how he comes off in that regard.

[ivesaidway2much]

Well, backing up his demands with "do as I say or I'll destroy the entire city, then kill humanity" can't really be helping how he comes off in that regard.I don't really see how it's relevant. There are quite a few wars throughout history that have basically the same premise (except substitute all humanity for everyone of certain race, religion, and/or geographical region). And I would think there are even more in 616 Marvel. For instance, weren't there a few wars against Apocalypse and his followers back in ancient 616 Earth? Wasn't he pharoah or something for a while?

[Pendaran]

I don't really see how it's relevant. There are quite a few wars throughout history that have basically the same premise (except substitute all humanity for everyone of certain race, religion, and/or geographical region). And I would think there are even more in 616 Marvel. For instance, weren't there a few wars against Apocalypse and his followers back in ancient 616 Earth.

So, people who operate on the premise of "obey me or I will commit genocide" are perfectly laudable? Simple yes or no question if you like. Your opinion if you want to be more thorough. Not dodging behind "well other people have done it". You, your personal view on people who operate on such a policy. You say it doesn't matter because people have done that in the real world. Are you saying they were just fine, the various people who have, in our kooky real world? If so, why? Why do you personally find such a premise acceptable on a personal level? People keep saying "it's fine because it's happened historically". Does that mean you agree with when it has happened historically? Find such good?

People like comparing this to Afghanistan for some reason. Can you show me where the US said "surrender or we'll kill everyone in your country to the last man woman and child"?

It's entirely relevant for it basically being supervillain dialogue. Everybody from Magneto to the Mandarin to Doctor Doom have periodically issued the "here are my demands, obey them or I'll kill you all" speech. Magneto especially when he's being portrayed as having gone insane and full bore evil.

I'll isolate it to one question: For everyone talking about how history and the world works and thus an eyelash shouldn't be batted, does that mean you personally agree with such things when they have happened historically, or no?

[Crisis]

If you want to think of what this is like...i think of the Hulk as the Bride in Kill Bill wanting to get revenge on the the people who destroyed her wedding, "killed" her daughter, her friends and the life she would have made for herself. and remember, SHE HULK called what Hulk was doing Caseius Belle or something like that The thing that gives a reason for war. By the illumaniti shooting him into outer space gave the Hulk all the justificiation to lay the smack down on their heads. and now...HE'S HERE...HE'S HERE HE'S HERE....(IRON SIDE SIREN SOUND)

[PatchMadripoor]

If Hulk wanted eye-for-an-eye vengeance, he would've beaten Black Bolt to a pulp, killed Medusa and nuked/vaporized the Inhumans from Attilan just to balance the scales with the the loss of his people on Sakaar (with Black Bolt).

By announcing his intentions and threatening the population, he makes sure that he gets compliance from the remaining Illuminati to his demands and no room for them to maneuver. He is giving them a chance to clear, instead of just dropping a bomb in NYC, like he was bombed back on Sakaar. There is some compassion for the Puny Humans. it's not all out cold blooded revenge upon the earth, just the iluminati. But he knows that this will escalate. He's a villian seeking payback like the Anti-hero the Punisher or Ghost Rider. if innocents want to step up, he will definite smack them back down into place.

"Know your role." - The Rock.

[ivesaidway2much]

I was simply responding to the notion that somehow the U.N. has the right to determine whether alien governments are official or not. I wasn't referring to anything in a moral sense.

So, people who operate on the premise of "obey me or I will commit genocide" are perfectly laudable? Simple yes or no question if you like. Your opinion if you want to be more thorough. Not dodging behind "well other people have done it". You, your personal view on people who operate on such a policy. You say it doesn't matter because people have done that in the real world. Are you saying they were just fine, the various people who have, in our kooky real world? If so, why? Why do you personally find such a premise acceptable on a personal level? People keep saying "it's fine because it's happened historically". Does that mean you agree with when it has happened historically? Find such good?You seem to be attributing a bunch of beliefs to me that I've never stated to hold. But I'll answer your main question anyway. No I don't find what the Hulk is doing to be laudable. But Marvel Earth (especially multinational military organization SHIELD) is protecting several suspects of genocide. It's unfortunate that it's come to this, but the 616 Earth made the choice to protect individuals suspected of killing over a million people and the Hulk has made his.


People like comparing this to Afghanistan for some reason. Can you show me where the US said "surrender or we'll kill everyone in your country to the last man woman and child"?I've never compared it to Afghanistan personally, since the situations don't fit that well. But if NYC had been destroyed by a nuclear level explosion (with Pres. Bush's wife and kids being vaporized), and Afghanistan was protecting the suspected terrorists resposible, the possiblity of the country being reduced to radioactive glass rises by about 2000%.


I'll isolate it to one question: For everyone talking about how history and the world works and thus an eyelash shouldn't be batted, does that mean you personally agree with such things when they have happened historically, or no?It depends on the conflict really. Some wars it's easy to pick a side, others not so much. For instance, I don't really pick a side in The Protestant vs. Catholic fighting in Northern Ireland or the Israeli vs. Palestinian dispute in the Middle East. I certainly don't agree with all the tactics both sides have used, but that doesn't particularly mean either side deserves to lose.

I'm sure the people of 616 Earth think the Hulk is an unredeemable monster, while the Sakaarans think of him as a conquering champion. As to who is right, only time will tell. Words speak a lot less clearly to me than actions.

[Pendaran]

I was simply responding to the notion that somehow the U.N. has the right to determine whether alien governments are official or not. I wasn't referring to anything in a moral sense.

I'd posted that issuing a supervillain style threat to kill everyone unless he's obeyed certainly doesn't help the Hulk avoid looking like a criminal/villain/etc. Your response was that it was irrelevant because of the reasons you listed, which were that it's been done throughout history. I can really only go off of what you post.


But Marvel Earth (especially multinational military organization SHIELD) is protecting several suspects of genocide.

Well yes, but then, if the Hulk tried to demand the world acknowledge such in any depth, it would ultimately reach the point of "so.. you have no actual proof they did any such thing, but you're demanding they be given to you anyway, or you'll kill everyone." Marvel Earth doesn't really seem to be doing much wrong when the Hulk wants to kill some guys he can't even establish comitting said crime, and the response is "yeah.. no."

Though all of that is not what's technically going on anyway. Being technical, the best you can say is that the Marvel US is protecting such people, given where they all live. Yet the rest of the world is being told they'll die unless the Hulk is obeyed anyway. They have nothing to do with it whatsoever, nor have any capacity to have anything to do with it.

I suppose you could argue that the Hulk is threatening them with global extermination in order to scare people into doing what he wants, but of course, that's arguing that the Hulk is say, using terror, as coupled with the threat of wiping out humanity, as a weapon, to achieve his goals.


But if NYC had been destroyed by a nuclear level explosion (with Pres. Bush's wife and kids being vaporized), and Afghanistan was protecting the suspected terrorists resposible, the possiblity of the country being reduced to radioactive glass rises by about 2000%.

Might be a bit tricky when no one actually takes any credit for the blast, and there's no actual proof of who's done anything. The best the US have managed off of vaguely tying someone to a terrorist attack that killed thousands is a conventional ground based invasion. Off of an attack that at least people helpfully took specific credit for, so any responses to any other group could be tied to..


There is some compassion for the Puny Humans.

Why, when a supervillain threatens massacre unless they are obeyed within a specific time frame, they are a supervillain, but when the Hulk does it, he's being compassionate?

That the Hulk could be doing worse than he is, doesn't mean he isn't, say, demanding a city for his personal warzone for no particularly good reason, regardless of the long term ruination that will bring to the lives of all kinds of people that live there, and threatening to kill vast numbers of unrelated people unless he's obeyed. That he could do worse doesn't really make what he's doing good by any stretch, it just means he could do worse.

[ivesaidway2much]

I'd posted that issuing a supervillain style threat to kill everyone unless he's obeyed certainly doesn't help the Hulk avoid looking like a criminal/villain/etc. Your response was that it was irrelevant because of the reasons you listed, which were that it's been done throughout history. I can really only go off of what you post.
Oh. I thought you were responding to the part of Captain Mobra's post that questioned the Hulk's legitimacy as a ruler based on the lack of a response from the U.N. on the matter. My bad.

[Pendaran]

Oh. I thought you were responding to the part of Captain Mobra's post that questioned the Hulk's legitimacy as a ruler based on the lack of a response from the U.N. on the matter. My bad.

Nope. As far as it goes, the people of the Hulk's planet recognize him as their ruler, he's their ruler. THat's kinda that.

Whether he comes off like a supervillain/terrorist/etc. regardless is a separate thing for me. And when the guy trucks in global death threats, it's unavoidable to come off that way.

[ivesaidway2much]

Whether he comes off like a supervillain/terrorist/etc. regardless is a separate thing for me. And when the guy trucks in global death threats, it's unavoidable to come off that way.Of course he's coming off like a supervillain. I just happen to think the Illuminati are supervillains too. That's what makes WWH so interesting. It's villain vs. villain.

[patch]

and if the hulk was really such a monster, well im sure the stone ship has weapons and he could have pretty much destroyed everything before the heroes could put thier spandex on.

[Pendaran]

and if the hulk was really such a monster, well im sure the stone ship has weapons and he could have pretty much destroyed everything before the heroes could put thier spandex on.

Would you similarly say then that Doctor Doom, Magneto et al are not really supervillains when they threaten the world to obey them or be destroyed, instead of just destroying it?

[Mike Smash!]

Well, backing up his demands with "do as I say or I'll destroy the entire city, then kill humanity" can't really be helping how he comes off in that regard.Except that he doesn't say that. He evacuates New York, demands that the Illuminati are brought to him or he'll smash other cities.

He never says anything about genocide. He didn't even kill Blackbolt, so aside from the fact that you seem to be acting as Tony Stark's lawyer and go out of your way to scream that Hulk is evil or to argue for Tony that you just start making things up.

Seriously, Pendaran. Take it down a notch. You're not Tony's lawyer. Just enjoy the comics for gods' sake. This isn't an internet death match or the Rumbles board, so the zeal isn't necessary.

[Pendaran]

Y'know, even some of the people arguing for the Hulk have noted how that came off as far as threatening the entire planet, they've just noted that he's only doing it to make sure that the Illuminati react how he wants to.

Even Greg Pak in an interview talked about how the Illuminati wouldn't think they can risk that the Hulk is bluffing, as he could entirely start tearing up continents and the like.


Seriously, Pendaran. Take it down a notch. You're not Tony's lawyer. Just enjoy the comics for gods' sake. This isn't an internet death match or the Rumbles board, so the zeal isn't necessary.

It's a fairly heavy topic as far as the world threatening thing and people bringing things into the discussion like the idea of who's innocent in war and who isn't, but fair enough.

[Mike Smash!]

It's a fairly heavy topic as far as the world threatening thing, but fair enough.Yes, it is, but one you're not Tony's lawyer and you seriously come across like you read comics not because you actually enjoy them, but because they give you ammo for arguments on the internet.

Seriously, scale it back.

[Brad Barton]

Y'know, even some of the people arguing for the Hulk have noted how that came off as far as threatening the entire planet, they've just noted that he's only doing it to make sure that the Illuminati react how he wants to.

Even Greg Pak in an interview talked about how the Illuminati wouldn't think they can risk that the Hulk is bluffing, as he could entirely start tearing up continents and the like.I've given you that the Hulk is taking this whole situation seriously....but it is a war, how could he not?

Mike's right though, Pendaran. You're passionately debating this "Hulk is a Monster" thing like you were arguing it for the supreme court...

I mean, hey, that's your perogative, and I know debate is a part of these boards, but at what point have you stopped debating for fun and are just doing it to be argumenative?

[Guitar Hero]

Basically, they (the illuminati?) killed the Hulk's wife and unborn son, so he's really MAD :evilangry

[Magneto Rocks]

I've given you that the Hulk is taking this whole situation seriously....but it is a war, how could he not?

Mike's right though, Pendaran. You're passionately debating this "Hulk is a Monster" thing like you were arguing it for the supreme court...

I mean, hey, that's your perogative, and I know debate is a part of these boards, but at what point have you stopped debating for fun and are just doing it to be argumenative?

Who says some of us don't get fun for being argumentative? I never stopped having fun in debates at the lowest moments of the civil war, when every single issue was another notch against Tony according to the Internet. (Circa CW #4)

And just to note


Except that he doesn't say that. He evacuates New York, demands that the Illuminati are brought to him or he'll smash other cities.

He never says anything about genocide. He didn't even kill Blackbolt, so aside from the fact that you seem to be acting as Tony Stark's lawyer and go out of your way to scream that Hulk is evil or to argue for Tony that you just start making things up.

Mike... he says "I'll do THIS to your whole stinking planet" while holding up a bloodied and nearly-dead man. That is pretty clearly a statement of intent to kill or at least smash everyone on Earth. And if that's not threatened genocide then I'm not entirely sure what is.

Not to mention that he doesn't evacuate New York, or even TELL Them to evacuate it- he doesn't care about the people, really. He just gives 24 hours for the Illuminati to be there. and he says nothing about smashing other cities, he says the PLANET. It's right there on paper.

[Mike Smash!]

There's argumentative and then there's overzealous. I don't care what your opinion on World War Hulk is or who you're backing, if you start treating a friendly debate like a Rumbles death match, I'm going to tell you to back down.

That goes for everyone.

[madrox1977]

As much as it pains me to say it, Magnetorocks is right, he doesnt make any reference to people evacuating he justs demands that the remaining members of the illuminati are brought to him......god i cant beleive i just agreed on a point about WWH with MG when he knows how i feel about it...

[Magneto Rocks]

Mike, this isn't meant in an offensive way, I'm being genuinely curious. What constitutes "overzealous"? What is the boundary which can't be stepped over. There have been no personal attacks made (That I'm aware of). Is there a standard of how seriously we should take it or whatever because sometimes it becomes obvious when things go overboard (I've done it myself) but in this case I have no clue how that's supposed to have happened.


As much as it pains me to say it, Magnetorocks is right, he doesnt make any reference to people evacuating he justs demands that the remaining members of the illuminati are brought to him......god i cant beleive i just agreed on a point about WWH with MG when he knows how i feel about it...

Closer to being pro-reg and pro-Tony, madrox....


...One step at a time... ;)

[madrox1977]

NOOOOOOOOO.....I'll never join you (jumps off cloud city)...frazzam razzam tony stark

[Brad Barton]

There's nothing wrong with being Over-zealous Mags...it's just unnecessary. I mean, when we all wake up and have a reality check, we're arguing over fictional characters here, there aren't going to be any real-world ramifications to any of this, so arguing something to the point of tedium is....well, tedious.

Personally, I like to throw out concepts and discuss Idea's...thats so much more fun than debating the morals and motives of a fictional character. (to me)

[Pendaran]

As much as it pains me to say it, Magnetorocks is right, he doesnt make any reference to people evacuating he justs demands that the remaining members of the illuminati are brought to him......god i cant beleive i just agreed on a point about WWH with MG when he knows how i feel about it...

Actually, the Hulk does say that the people have 24 hours to evacuate the city. He just also then holds up what looks like a mauled body and says "I'll do this to your whole stinking planet" if his demands are not met.

http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wwh1threaten1st6.jpg

http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wwh1threaten2gl8.jpg


So it would be closer to say that people are right about the evacuation warning, but somewhat off to say it's making things up that the Hulk threatened the planet.

[Mike Smash!]

Mike, this isn't meant in an offensive way, I'm being genuinely curious. What constitutes "overzealous"? What is the boundary which can't be stepped over. There have been no personal attacks made (That I'm aware of). Is there a standard of how seriously we should take it or whatever because sometimes it becomes obvious when things go overboard (I've done it myself) but in this case I have no clue how that's supposed to have happened.Overzealous becomes when someone starts debating about fictional characters in a way that people normally only reserve for politics and religion.

When we turn threads into "I will defeat your argument" death matches, I've noticed that far fewer people post on them and we get the same five angry people over and over.

Overzealous is a desparate need to inject "SEE! SEE! I'M RIGHT! YOU'RE WRONG!" into everything and to not be able to just turn it off once in a while.

Make your point, whatever your point is. But don't suck the fun out of the discussion, in an attempt to "defeat" anyone. I really don't want a Rumbles culture on this board.

And most of the time, you're perfectly fine, Mags. It's just that there one or two posters on either side of this debate (and no, I'm not naming names) that seem more interested in winning an argument, even if it makes the whole thing completely unfun for everyone else.

[patch]

Would you similarly say then that Doctor Doom, Magneto et al are not really supervillains when they threaten the world to obey them or be destroyed, instead of just destroying it?

i know you want to think they are all the same , but the histories of what they have done just dont match.

[madrox1977]

My apologies Pendaran... it would appear that i was indeed wrong...see thats what happens when you agree with a pro regger.....hahahahahaha just kidding Mags.......

[Magneto Rocks]

But even there Pendaran, (Will I argue with the one person to be on my side? Yes!) it's an offhand refernece, "You have twenty-four hours to evacuate." The tone of the speech makes it very clear he's not saying "Evacuate, you have a day..." He's saying that he's coming in twenty hour hours and they sure as Hell better use that time to evacuate because he's smashing regardless of whether people are there or not.

There is no earthly way 6 million people could be moved in 24 hours in reality. In the comic, it only just barely happens, and that's due to HUGE superhuman intervention which it's EXTREMELY doubtful the hulk foresaw.

So basically he was giving them 24 hours before he came in and as far as he knew, there'd probasbly still be hundreds of thousands- maybe a million- on the island. He just didn't care.


My apologies Pendaran... it would appear that i was indeed wrong...see thats what happens when you agree with a pro regger.....hahahahahaha just kidding Mags.......

But Pendaran agrees with TOny Stark too so either way you're agreeing with a pro-Tonyer.

Choice of Evils, Madrox! ;)

[Mike Smash!]

But even there Pendaran, (Will I argue with the one person to be on my side? Yes!) it's an offhand refernece, "You have twenty-four hours to evacuate." The tone of the speech makes it very clear he's not saying "Evacuate, you have a day..." He's saying that he's coming in twenty hour hours and they sure as Hell better use that time to evacuate because he's smashing regardless of whether people are there or not.

There is no earthly way 6 million people could be moved in 24 hours in reality. In the comic, it only just barely happens, and that's due to HUGE superhuman intervention which it's EXTREMELY doubtful the hulk foresaw.

So basically he was giving them 24 hours before he came in and as far as he knew, there'd probasbly still be hundreds of thousands- maybe a million- on the island. He just didn't care.I think you may be arguing semantics over the evacuation thing. The point is he told them to evacuate.

As for realism, it's a comic book. You may not be able to evacuate NYC in 24 hours, but neither could you get hit with gamma radiation and get any outcome rather than cancer and a painful death. Much the same way you're not likely to get anything other than ill from a radioactive spider bite.

When people can lift mountains or store computers in the hollows of their bones in a story, it sort of implies that it requires a bit of a suspension of reality.

[Magneto Rocks]

I think you may be arguing semantics over the evacuation thing. The point is he told them to evacuate.

He mentioned offhand that they SHOULD evacuate before showing them a mangled, near-beaten-to-death body. Which would make more impression on YOU?


As for realism, it's a comic book. You may not be able to evacuate NYC in 24 hours, but neither could you get hit with gamma radiation and get any outcome rather than cancer and a painful death. Much the same way you're not likely to get anything other than ill from a radioactive spider bite.


But it's not quite the same. I don't think we can say Hulk automatically assumed "Well it's unlikely they can evacuate it in that time but Hey, it was unlikely I would get this from gamma rays so who knows!?"

[Pendaran]

But Pendaran agrees with TOny Stark too so either way you're agreeing with a pro-Tonyer.


I was happy to cede the specifically depicted on panel collateral innocent blood total as compared with the Hulk being 2-1 on the other thread y'know.

And I've never really disagreed that in the JMS comics for instance, Stark comes off horribly. It's really just a matter of how much weight a person decides to put on those comics over others that contradict them.

I mean, in those comics, Reed came off even worse. Mind you McDuffie retconned Reed in that. Then again, he also had Black Panther bust out his cosmic WWE moves on the Silver Surfer, so it's hard to decide what to take from his writing..


But even there Pendaran, (Will I argue with the one person to be on my side? Yes!) it's an offhand refernece, "You have twenty-four hours to evacuate." The tone of the speech makes it very clear he's not saying "Evacuate, you have a day..." He's saying that he's coming in twenty hour hours and they sure as Hell better use that time to evacuate because he's smashing regardless of whether people are there or not.

Eh..

He does say evacuate, so people can note that he says to evacuate. My point has always just been that people's lives will be ruined anyway, and that less evil is still evil.

I'd think what would stand out to you more is the Hulk saying before the evac warning that "now this city will fall". So the warning is more "I'm going to destroy New York, you have 24 hours to leave". And then at the end "and if no one obeys me, I'm going to rumble the planet."

[madrox1977]

When people can lift mountains or store computers in the hollows of their bones in a story, it sort of implies that it requires a bit of a suspension of reality.

Always love this line of thinking and its an idea i subscribe to, usually whilst mocking friends....particularly the one who went to see independance day and came back and said "well its not very realistic is it?"......nothing to do with the thread but i like it.


He mentioned offhand that they SHOULD evacuate before showing them a mangled, near-beaten-to-death body. Which would make more impression on YOU?

To be honest if someone had shown me a "near-beaten-to-death body and said i'll do the same to the whole puny planet (or whatsever it actually was) i think that would be my cue to get the He** out of dodge.

[XPac]

He mentioned offhand that they SHOULD evacuate before showing them a mangled, near-beaten-to-death body. Which would make more impression on YOU?



Course, he did show the mangled near beaten to dead body of the guy that recently invaded the US himself. Maybe to some, that would be a check in the PLUS column for Hulk.

[Brad Barton]

To be honest if someone had shown me a "near-beaten-to-death body and said i'll do the same to the whole puny planet (or whatsever it actually was) i think that would be my cue to get the He** out of dodge.But their argument is that it's still evil for Hulk to ask that of them. (Hey, I can argue the other side too!! And it still doesn't really matter all that much!)

Just kidding, Pro-"Hulk is evil" guys. ;)

[Jaykob]

Why, when a supervillain threatens massacre unless they are obeyed within a specific time frame, they are a supervillain, but when the Hulk does it, he's being compassionate?



The easy answer to this question is that it's the Hulk. He's actually had instances where he's worked along side heroes to save the world. And, in the past, when he has been randomly rampaging, a lot of people didn't really consider it his fault. I liken it to if a kid with downs-syndrome flips out and head buts another kid in the face with his helmet :evilsmile . For a long time, a lot of people didn't hold the Hulk accountable for his own actions.

Another issue is Bruce Banner...who really IS the Hulk. He's a likable good hearted kind of guy and I think that colors a lot of people's opinion of the Hulk.

So to contrast that with a super villain like Dr. Doom, who very rarely shows any desire to perform altruistic acts and who also is extremely intelligent, the Hulk is a different kind of animal.

[XPac]

But their argument is that it's still evil for Hulk to ask that of them. (Hey, I can argue the other side too!! And it still doesn't really matter all that much!)

Just kidding, Pro-"Hulk is evil" guys. ;)

It's at least slightly less "evil" than Cap and Tony did when their violence spilled out on the streets. Between Civil War and WWH we've seen scenario after scenario where both sides are wrong... but Hulk (perhaps because he himself has just lost a city) is showing far more courtesy to the common bystandards than a lot of other heroes we've seen.

That doesn't make what Hulk is doing right of course... but there's an interesting bit of irony there.

[madrox1977]

Actually I'm agreeing with Xpac on this one....whilst Hulk is an arse for invading (too strong a word but it'll do) New York at least he's warned people.....although this does mean that there wont be any firemen, policemen, builders or paramedics stopping the hulk in issue 5

[XPac]

Actually I'm agreeing with Xpac on this one....whilst Hulk is an arse for invading (too strong a word but it'll do) New York at least he's warned people.....although this does mean that there wont be any firemen, policemen, builders or paramedics stopping the hulk in issue 5

I'd certainly LOVE to see that same batch of guys jump on the Hulk to try and save Tony like they did Cap. I'd be a barrel of laughs for about a second and a half.

[Jaykob]

One thing we're also not considering, is how many average citizens in the MU actually hate Tony Stark. I know if I was living in the 616 MU, I would be terrified that my government had created an army of superheroes to keep us all in line, especially when SHIELD is seemingly at their disposal to invade all privacy rights and basically stomp all over the Constitution. There's something very fascist about registration. The main problem I've had with registration is not that heroes would be accountable for their actions, but that it empowers a superhuman sub-culture with the force of law. When you think about it, that's lunacy! Now any dude who randomly gets super powers can police me? I know it's not as simple as that, but I imagine that's what many citizens would be thinking.

Consider that many people in NY welcome the Hulk's return to take down Iron Man. I have to say, if I was living in the 616 MU I would be utterly opposed to Iron Man and his rise to power. I'd see his evil looking tower as a symbol of fascism and a New World Order that goes against many of the founding principles America was founded on. I can honestly say, I would cheer watching the Hulk knock it down.

[XPac]

One thing we're also not considering, is how many average citizens in the MU actually hate Tony Stark. I know if I was living in the 616 MU, I would be terrified that my government had created an army of superheroes to keep us all in line, especially when SHIELD is seemingly at their disposal to invade all privacy rights and basically stomp all over the Constitution. There's something very fascist about registration. The main problem I've had with registration is not that heroes would be accountable for their actions, but that it empowers a superhuman sub-culture with the force of law. When you think about it, that's lunacy! Now any dude who randomly gets super powers can police me? I know it's not as simple as that, but I imagine that's what many citizens would be thinking.

Consider that many people in NY welcome the Hulk's return to take down Iron Man. I have to say, if I was living in the 616 MU I would be utterly opposed to Iron Man and his rise to power. I'd see his evil looking tower as a symbol of fascism and a New World Order that goes against many of the founding principles America was founded on. I can honestly say, I would cheer watching the Hulk knock it down.

Tony did say that if there was anyone to blame for this, it was him (though I'm assumign that's obviously excluding the Hulk). Assuming people were paying attention to that (and there are indicators that many people missed it), then there is certainly valid reason for public opinion to be turned a bit against Tony.

[Magneto Rocks]

One thing we're also not considering, is how many average citizens in the MU actually hate Tony Stark.

Um... very very few? Not just that I'm pro-Tony but I mean... it's canon evidence. SHRA support has only increased since the civil war, Tony has been a PHENOMENALLY succesful S.H.I.E.L.D. Director and just look at the people in World War Hulk #1- if anything he'll end up MORE popular.


I know if I was living in the 616 MU, I would be terrified that my government had created an army of superheroes to keep us all in line, especially when SHIELD is seemingly at their disposal to invade all privacy rights and basically stomp all over the Constitution.

Except that none of that stuff is happening so they have nothing to worry about. :D



There's something very fascist about registration.

But there's not. And every time this argument comes up it is brutally curb-stomped to the ground. The best you can make is a weak case for totilitarianism. Facism is jsut a word bandied about cos it sounds nice and evil.


The main problem I've had with registration is not that heroes would be accountable for their actions, but that it empowers a superhuman sub-culture with the force of law.

But it doesn't. The GOVERNMENT police you. With, y'know, police. The way they always have.


Consider that many people in NY welcome the Hulk's return to take down Iron Man.

Byt they don't. He wants to smash them all and Iron Man is just ONE of his targets, and when you see Iron Man selflessly flying to battle Hulk I don't think there's many people in New York saying "Gooo Hulk!"


I have to say, if I was living in the 616 MU I would be utterly opposed to Iron Man and his rise to power. I'd see his evil looking tower as a symbol of fascism and a New World Order that goes against many of the founding principles America was founded on. I can honestly say, I would cheer watching the Hulk knock it down.

Let's just say I doubt that VERY, VERY, VERY much. :D

[XPac]

Um... very very few? Not just that I'm pro-Tony but I mean... it's canon evidence. SHRA support has only increased since the civil war, Tony has been a PHENOMENALLY succesful S.H.I.E.L.D. Director and just look at the people in World War Hulk #1- if anything he'll end up MORE popular.




Why would he be more popular? He ended up causing an invasion of NY. Even if he was right about Hulk being a threat, all his scheming ended up doing was making Hulk an even BIGGER threat. What exactly is to like about that?

[Magneto Rocks]

Why would he be more popular? He ended up causing an invasion of NY. Even if he was right about Hulk being a threat, all his scheming ended up doing was making Hulk an even BIGGER threat. What exactly is to like about that?

Ask the people cheering his every punch.

[Exo]

Why would he be more popular?

We'll have to wait for the ending of WWH to find out, but in #1 the people were cheering for Ironman regardless of who shot what into space.

[XPac]

Ask the people cheering his every punch.

Sure they were cheering... he was stopping the invader for second.

That doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of people will be happy about the fact that he's the reason Hulk is attacking them to begin with.

Plus, there's the fact that he lost. Taxpayers are paying the Initiative BILLIONS of dollars. Are they getting their moneys worth?

[Jaykob]

Um... very very few? Not just that I'm pro-Tony but I mean... it's canon evidence. SHRA support has only increased since the civil war, Tony has been a PHENOMENALLY succesful S.H.I.E.L.D. Director and just look at the people in World War Hulk #1- if anything he'll end up MORE popular.

Can you point to evidence showing Tony's poll numbers or something? As far as I know, there has yet to be a concensus taken around the MU as to how many people like Tony and how many people dislike him. Your assertion that he'll be more popular after WWH is pure conjecture.




Except that none of that stuff is happening so they have nothing to worry about. :D

Just because something isn't happening right this second, doesn't mean it doesn't have a potential to happen in the future. We've seen how conflicted SHIELD is internally and we've seen the capabilities they have in surveillance, monitoring, and espionage in general. The potential is there and that's what's scary.



But there's not. And every time this argument comes up it is brutally curb-stomped to the ground. The best you can make is a weak case for totilitarianism. Facism is jsut a word bandied about cos it sounds nice and evil.

I'm not saying that America has been converted to Fascism in the MU. I'm saying there are elements in the current MU status quo that are similar to fascism. For example, the fact that superpowered invidividuals automatically have the opportunity to be on the fast track to being a registered "police officer". Infact, they're not even really given a choice in the matter. In Avengers:The Inititiave, we clearly see kids given the choices: be depowered, or join our cause. The superpowered police force has the definite potential to become fascist in nature. Numerous psychological experiments have proven the inevitable effects when one group is given power over another and is left unchecked. Amassing a huge army of superpowered individuals who were essentially born into their roll has protector can have damaging future consequences. A good example of this is in North Korea. Soldiers are part of the elite class, they live great wonderful lives while beating on and exploiting the rest of the populace which are mostly vagrants. I would definitely describe North Korea has a fascist country.




But it doesn't. The GOVERNMENT police you. With, y'know, police. The way they always have.

Let's say all the mean bad supervillains are stopped, or better yet, THEY REGISTER! Now the superpowered people are out of a job, aren't they? Or maybe they'd replace the regular police to "protect" us from ourselves since, afterall, they're naturally equipped to deal with all manner of crime. And who would stop them?


Byt they don't. He wants to smash them all and Iron Man is just ONE of his targets, and when you see Iron Man selflessly flying to battle Hulk I don't think there's many people in New York saying "Gooo Hulk!"

I think there'd at least be a large minority of people who would like to see Tony Stark go down. I'm certain of that.



Let's just say I doubt that VERY, VERY, VERY much. :D

Doubt it all you like. I never called you a liar.

[Exo]

That doesn't necessarily mean that a lot of people will be happy about the fact that he's the reason Hulk is attacking them to begin with.

I think the average citizen would atleast condone what Tony did, if not approve his decision to shoot the Hulk into space. But I'd wager because 'Tony didn't get it right the first time', is the only reason you'd see a decline in his popularity.

[Jaykob]

Ask the people cheering his every punch.

WWH is a 5 issue mini. Just because they showed the people who supported him in the first issue, doesn't mean they won't show the people who hate Iron Man later or in one of the many other WWH side stories.

[XPac]

I think the average citizen would atleast condone what Tony did, if not approve his decision to shoot the Hulk into space. But I'd wager because 'Tony didn't get it right the first time', is the only reason you'd see a decline in his popularity.

I'd think they'd condone Tony's actions if it had actually worked, rather than resulting in an invasion.

I'm sure had the New Warriors actually suceeded in capturing Nitro at the start of Civil War, people would have condoned their actions too. It just didn't end up working out that way.

[Exo]

I'd think they'd condone Tony's actions if it had actually worked, rather than resulting in an invasion.

You think they the public would be against sending the Hulk to paradise planet uninhabited of sentient life?

It's a win/win situation.

[XPac]

You think they the public would be against sending the Hulk to paradise planet uninhabited of sentient life?

It's a win/win situation.

If the end result of doing that is Hulk invading NY, then I very much doubt the public would view it as a win/win situation.

[Bryson the Red]

WWH is a 5 issue mini. Just because they showed the people who supported him in the first issue, doesn't mean they won't show the people who hate Iron Man later or in one of the many other WWH side stories.

They may or may not like him later. I have to say though, from everything I've seen since pretty much the start of Civil War through WWH, is that the public supports if not loved Iron Man. The super-humans obviously don't and I don't know about foreign sentiment, but the US public seems very pleased with him.

[Mike Smash!]

Ask the people cheering his every punch.People cheer on a lot of government action they later come to regret supporting.

Besides, there were a number of New Yorkers being evacuated who were very anti-SHRA and when they yelled at Spidey, they listed shooting the Hulk into space as a greviance.

What I find most puzzling about Mark Millar and the SHRA is that his "moral" of Civil War was the polar opposite of the lesson of The Ultimates.

That we're supposed to smile and cheer and the government army of caped and costumed storm troopers, rather than worry about any government having that sort of firepower and strength at their disposal -- especially with a PR department. The inevitable outcome of this situation is precisely what we saw in the Ultimates -- the government using superhumans for military purposes and using them to supplement an aggressive foreign policy that only makes the world more dangerous.

Basically what I see the beginnings of a slippery slope towards a colorful costumed police state where SHIELD or some other agency can just send superhumans out to do their bidding. That's a far scarier thought to me than the Hulk running around out there.

And I find it puzzling that Millar wrote both series.

I've said before that I could support registration and oversight within extremely tight perameters, but the Orwellian/Machiavellian Tony/Reed stuff is just terrifying to me and it makes it very difficult for me to see them as heroes.

But as someone mentioned before, the Hulk has actually been more considerate of innocent bystanders than Tony and Cap ever were when they decided to have a war in the middle of the city.

[Mike Smash!]

If the end result of doing that is Hulk invading NY, then I very much doubt the public would view it as a win/win situation.The CIA/Pentagon terminology for this is "blowback".

[Exo]

If the end result of doing that is Hulk invading NY

Well duh. :mad:

I don't think anyone could have forseen the Hulk returning without his speech impediment let alone a giant warship. I'm talking strictly about giving the Hulk a permanent home somewhere other than Earth. And I don't think the public would be against such an idea.

[XPac]

Well duh. :mad:

I don't think anyone could have forseen the Hulk returning without his speech impediment let alone a giant warship. I'm talking strictly about giving the Hulk a permanent home somewhere other than Earth. And I don't think the public would be against such an idea.

As I said... I don't think the public would have been against it either... if it had actually worked.

Again, to repeat my parallel, I don't think the public would have been against what the New Warriors did at the start of Civil War had they suceeded in capturing Nitro and the rest of the criminals.

Didn't work out that way there, and it didn't work out that way for Stark and company. Sending Hulk to space resulted in the death of an entire civilization in space (something the average MU citizen probably doesn't give a dam about), and an Invasion on earth (something the average citizen probably cares about a great deal.

You're assuming the average MU citizen will ignore the end result of Tonys actions and judge him purely on his intent. I'd argue the exact opposite... regardless of what Tony intended, the end result was WWH.

As for forseeing Hulk return... Stark obviously did and flat out said so. Thankfully, few people know that. Had they known that all this was caused by a plan of Stark that he himself didn't even think would work in the first place, I'd wager people would be even madder about his part in it.

[Brad Barton]

Again, to repeat my parallel, I don't think the public would have been against what the New Warriors did at the start of Civil War had they suceeded in capturing Nitro and the rest of the criminals.Yes, but even if they had been successful and Stamford hadn't been turned into a giant crater, it wouldn't have changed the fact that the new Warriors recklessly engaged multiple dangerous enemies in a heavily populated area just to get ratings for a TV show (Speedball wasn't doing it to "catch bad guys", he was doing it for all the wrong reasons, which makes it somewhat worse).

But still, it's funny that all the sudden these past few years the civiliansof the Marvel U have taken on this great weight, and nothing can be done story-wise without considering them first and foremost. Back in Stan and Jacks day they were having epic, eathquake inducing brawls 5 times a week in heavily populated areas, and yet you never heard a squeak in regards to "What about the fictional citizens, they might've been hurt!?"

I think they were more down to Earth back then, and they knew the comic was being made so we could see the battle and not have to worry about fictitious civilians...

[Slumber Hulk]

Hulk is a force of nature!

An angry one.

[Exo]

You're assuming the average MU citizen will ignore the end result of Tonys actions and judge him purely on his intent.

I'm assuming they'd also understand his situation, what with his tear-jerking speech to the nation during the Hulk fight. Whatever he did, he did it for them and they sure as hell know it now. And he's also taking responsibility for the mistake of his own making head on, which was broadcasted coast to coast. I'd think public opinion would be in his favor by the end of this event, but we'll see.

And NW was a group of teenagers going gung-ho for TV ratings, which directly caused the deaths of hundreds. Two different situations.

[XPac]

I'm assuming they'd also understand his situation, what with his tear-jerking speech to the nation during the Hulk fight. Whatever he did, he did it for them and they sure as hell know it now. And he's taking also responsibility for the mistake of his own making head on, which was broadcasted coast to coast. I'd think public opinion would be in his favor by the end of this event, but we'll see.

And NW was a group of teenagers going gung-ho for TV ratings, which directly caused the deaths of hundreds. Two different situations.

NW didn't not directly cause the deaths of hundreds. Nitro directly caused the deaths of hundreds. But the people didn't see that way (hell, the public were blaming heroes that weren't even there and had absolutely nothing to do with it one way or the other).

And it's that level of ignorance and stupidity that heroes have to constantly battle against. Everyone loves them when they do their job perfectly. But the public is all to willing to hang them out to dry when the prove that they're as human as anyone else and screw up.

But that aside... the public did have a right to be mad at the New Warriors. And they frankly have a right to be mad at Stark too. Regardless of intent, the end results speak for themselve.

[Exo]

NW didn't not directly cause the deaths of hundreds. Nitro directly caused the deaths of hundreds.

Nitro wouldn't dream of exploding that day. It's not like they were holding people hostages in a bank. NW deliberately went out in search of a fight that could have waited until proper precautions could be taken. They decided not to with the end result being Nitro doing his sole purpose in life namely blowing himself up (shocking).

This compared sending the Hulk to a remote planet?

[Dorsai]

I don't think anyone could have forseen the Hulk returning without his speech impediment let alone a giant warship. I'm talking strictly about giving the Hulk a permanent home somewhere other than Earth. And I don't think the public would be against such an idea.


It seems to me that for a long time, people in the MU thought of Hulk as an animal control problem. They looked at him like he might have been a grizzly that came down from the mountains into small town or like a coyote that is running through suburban neighborhoods. He wasn't really held as culpable and was thought to be just following his nature. But the same as any wild animal that attacks a human, animal control will put it down. The Illuminati did much of the same thing and other than the Banner half complicating things, I really get the sense they looked at Hulk as an animal control problem and not really a criminal or murderer.

I think one of the differences now that is just dawning on people is that the wild animal really isn't that wild. Still very dangerous but not wild. That was Black Bolt's mistake and he thought things would be more of the same. I think Stark made the same mistake and still hasn't realized that the Hulk isn't wild anymore.

But I'll throw this out for discussion...is the Hulk a wild animal and should be treated as such? Or is he truly sentient and should be treated like any other sentient alien or human? The treatment really is very different. If he is a victim of his own nature (animal), the exile seems reasonable if you can't kill him. If he is a sentient being, then you start to apply more human standards to his actions and his treatment.

[XPac]

Nitro wouldn't dream of exploding that day. It's not like they were holding people hostages in a bank. NW deliberately went out in search of a fight that could have waited until proper precautions could be taken. They decided not to with the end result being Nitro doing his sole purpose in life namely blowing himself up (shocking).

This compared sending the Hulk to a remote planet?

Nitro chose to blow up. Therefore Nitro is DIRECTLY responsible for the death of hundreds. NW made a mistake. But they aren't directly responsible for Stamford anymore than Stark and company are directly responsible for that city being blown up (unless that really was what they had in mind) or WWH ... ultimately Nitro and Nitro alone made the decision to blow up and kill innocent people. The direct responsibility was his.

NW acted stupidly, and frankly so did Tony (again, he himself knew the plan wouldn't work... so all the pain and sufferning that has occured because of it really ended up being unecessary). In both cases we have heroes acting stupidly but with good intent, but the end results nonetheless speak for themselves. And now they will pay the price for their mistakes... the fact that they made mistakes doesn't make them evil, it just makes them human. Nonetheless, that's simply not a good enough reason to sweep their mistakes under the carpet. There should be and I suspect will be consequences. Because that's just how life works.

Even Tony, who has gotten away with all lies and manipulations and even murders thus far will sooner or later have kharma catch up with him.

[Captain Mobra]

By what right does United Nations or U.S. get to decide whether a government from another planet is legit? Do they get to go and judge which Kree planets legally belong to the empire. Are all the planets that have not been "discovered" by 616 Earth essentially living in lawless anarchy until the U.N. decides if their government is official?If one government doesn't recognize another as any semblance of a nation then according to the to that government, yes, they are living in "some crazy anarchy." I'm not sure that I'd word it that way but yeah, essentially. Meaning that America/U.N./Whoever is dealing with the clean up after the war can call him either a terrorist, or a warlord or war criminal depending on if they actually call his group an actual recognized body that constitutes a "government" or just a group of sentients that are attacking the Earth.

Man. This thread bursted while I was gone.

[Exo]

Nitro chose to blow up.

But NW forced him to make that choice (one that was easy to make).


NW acted stupidly, and frankly so did Tony

Nitro was being Nitro.


again, he himself knew the plan wouldn't work...

This is news to me.


In both cases we have heroes acting stupidly

In one case we have teenagers acting on their impulses, the other excessive planning and precautions.

[Jaykob]

Besides, there were a number of New Yorkers being evacuated who were very anti-SHRA and when they yelled at Spidey, they listed shooting the Hulk into space as a greviance.

I totally forgot those quick frames, Mike. That's an excellent point that goes along with what I've been saying. Even at this stage, there is at least a small segment of regular 616 citizens who distrust Iron Man.


I've said before that I could support registration and oversight within extremely tight perameters, but the Orwellian/Machiavellian Tony/Reed stuff is just terrifying to me and it makes it very difficult for me to see them as heroes.

Exactly. When Tony begins rationalizing his actions by saying "It's my job because I am supposed to see the future!" or validating his decisions because he's "a futurist", it sends a chill down my spine (in a good way because it's great storytelling). Am I wrong in thinking these words are something Dr. Doom would say?

The entire premise that someone's above average intelligence somehow entitles them to circumvent the law, ignore decency, and basically just do whatever they want that is, in their opinion, right for US, is a scary one.

[XPac]

But NW forced him to make that choice (one that was easy to make).



Nitro was being Nitro.



This is news to me.



In one case we have teenagers acting on their impulses, the other excessive planning and precautions.

Nitro wasn't forced to blow up. He was put in a situation where he felt blowing himself was beneficial, and did so. But that's not the same thing as forcing him to do it. Nitro had a choice, and he made it. Just like Hulk had a choice on whether or not to attack the earth after what the Illuminati did to him and his people. In both cases, there is some level of accountability... but it's indirect. At the end of the day, Nitro and Hulk make their own decisions.

Did the NW made a mistake... sure. But that doesn't chance the fact that Nitro is accountable for his own decisions. If the NW had the power to force Nitro to do anything, CW would NOT have ended the way it did.

As for Stark knowing that the plan to send Hulk to space wouldn't work... he outright admitted it in She-Hulk (if you're not reading it you should... it's a great book). His anti-Hulk preperations did not come out of thin air... he knew Hulk would return and was at least trying to prepare himself for it (for all the good it did him).

[Vulgar]

Stark always saying he's a futurist always annoys me. It just seems like a cop out, kind of his way of saying he had to do it for the common good. He dosen't have a choice in the matter so don't be mad at him. That being said if he knew the Hulk would come back madder then ever and knew he'd have to be the first to attack the Hulk my respect for Stark just went up a notch.

[Brad Barton]

Did the NW made a mistake... sure. But that doesn't chance the fact that Nitro is accountable for his own decisions. If the NW had the power to force Nitro to do anything, CW would NOT have ended the way it did.That's very true, as irresponsible and careless as the NW were in attacking him, it doesn't change what Nitro chose to do...but here's the rub: If the New Warriors hadn't shown up there in the first place, Nitro would never have had a reason to run and explode in the middle of a playground.
It's the same endless cycle that the WWH talk has gotten into a bit. "Hulk shouldn't have attacked New York/The Illuminati shouldn't have shot Hulk into Space and blown up his wife"...both sides are right, and sumultaneously both wrong.


As for Stark knowing that the plan to send Hulk to space wouldn't work... he outright admitted it in She-Hulk (if you're not reading it you should... it's a great book). His anti-Hulk preperations did not come out of thin air... he knew Hulk would return and was at least trying to prepare himself for it (for all the good it did him).Yup, he's a "futurist", remember? that's what gives him the right to do whatever the hell he wants, he can intuit the future.

So though he was smart enough to "intuit" everything thus far, he can't intuit diversity, and he can't have intuited how strong Hulk would become, or what experiences and horrors on Sakaar led to that. No one can predict the future, and Stark using that as a pretense to start a Civil War is what made him essentially wrong from before the first punch was ever thrown.

[mike626]

I'm assuming they'd also understand his situation, what with his tear-jerking speech to the nation during the Hulk fight. Whatever he did, he did it for them and they sure as hell know it now. And he's also taking responsibility for the mistake of his own making head on, which was broadcasted coast to coast. I'd think public opinion would be in his favor by the end of this event, but we'll see.

And NW was a group of teenagers going gung-ho for TV ratings, which directly caused the deaths of hundreds. Two different situations.If they bought that disingenuous crap I hope Hulk and the Warbound lay NYC to waste,Tony is a war criminal.

[drupgyu]

Yes, but even if they had been successful and Stamford hadn't been turned into a giant crater, it wouldn't have changed the fact that the new Warriors recklessly engaged multiple dangerous enemies in a heavily populated area just to get ratings for a TV show (Speedball wasn't doing it to "catch bad guys", he was doing it for all the wrong reasons, which makes it somewhat worse).

But still, it's funny that all the sudden these past few years the civiliansof the Marvel U have taken on this great weight, and nothing can be done story-wise without considering them first and foremost. Back in Stan and Jacks day they were having epic, eathquake inducing brawls 5 times a week in heavily populated areas, and yet you never heard a squeak in regards to "What about the fictional citizens, they might've been hurt!?"

I think they were more down to Earth back then, and they knew the comic was being made so we could see the battle and not have to worry about fictitious civilians...

Agreed....I wonder if some of this comes from the post 9/11 mindset many New Yorkers have felt , which happens to be the base of Marvel comics?

[XPac]

Stark always saying he's a futurist always annoys me. It just seems like a cop out, kind of his way of saying he had to do it for the common good. He dosen't have a choice in the matter so don't be mad at him. That being said if he knew the Hulk would come back madder then ever and knew he'd have to be the first to attack the Hulk my respect for Stark just went up a notch.

I never bought the idea of him being a futurist either.

You can't assemble a team the Thunderbolts (with the freaking Green Goblin as the leader for gods sake), then turn around and say with any credibility that you're a futurist. A blind, deaf mute would have better foresight than that.

[hyzmarca]

That's very true, as irresponsible and careless as the NW were in attacking him, it doesn't change what Nitro chose to do...but here's the rub: If the New Warriors hadn't shown up there in the first place, Nitro would never have had a reason to run and explode in the middle of a playground.
It's the same endless cycle that the WWH talk has gotten into a bit. "Hulk shouldn't have attacked New York/The Illuminati shouldn't have shot Hulk into Space and blown up his wife"...both sides are right, and sumultaneously both wrong.


The difference is, of course, that Nitro couldn't have blown his way out of a paper bag without drugs and no one had any clue that his powers were augmented. No one could have foreseen what was going to happen and anyone would have done the same thing that the New Warriors did.

In the case of the Hulk's exile, the end result was easily forseeable. In fact, Namor came right out with it and told them. This isn't even a 'lets hope for the best', this was a very stupid 'if we do this we're all going to die prematurely, we can only hope that Dr. Doom does us in before Hulk gets back'. They knew that they were bringing this down upon themselves and they did it anyway.

[Brad Barton]

In the case of the Hulk's exile, the end result was easily forseeable. In fact, Namor came right out with it and told them. This isn't even a 'lets hope for the best', this was a very stupid 'if we do this we're all going to die prematurely, we can only hope that Dr. Doom does us in before Hulk gets back'. They knew that they were bringing this down upon themselves and they did it anyway.Right, and as with the Civil War/New Warriors example, theres a rub: If the Illuminati hadn't shot Hulk into space, they never would have earned his enmity, or, intetionally or no, blown up the crown city of Sakaar, killing millions.

It reminds me of a quote from an old PAD Hulk issue with Joe Fixit, Hulk tells Spidey something to the effect of:

"If you help, innocent lives will be endangered, and if you don't help, innocent lives will be endangered...makes you feel pretty useless, doesn't it?"

[XPac]

Right, and as with the Civil War/New Warriors example, theres a rub: If the Illuminati hadn't shot Hulk into space, they never would have earned his enmity, or, intetionally or no, blown up the crown city of Sakaar, killing millions.

It reminds me of a quote from an old PAD Hulk issue with Joe Fixit, Hulk tells Spidey something to the effect of:

"If you help, innocent lives will be endangered, and if you don't help, innocent lives will be endangered...makes you feel pretty useless, doesn't it?"

That really goes to the heart of the problem here... the MU citizens are a bunch of paranoid ingrates.

For all the collateral damage that heroes do, 99% of the time it's still nowhere near as bad as as it would have been had the hero NOT acted.

All the complaining we saw in Civil War from the government and public completely ignores the simple fact that the heroes did a very very good job. They have a ridiculously high sucess rate with a ridiculously low casualty rate.

Even the Hulk, for all his suppossedly mindless rampages, did far more good than harm for not only the earth but the entire freaking universe. That doesn't mean of course that Hulks rampages should be ignored... but it just doesn't seem fair that all the good he's done over the years is completely ignored EXCEPT when they need his help for something.

[Stafnbui]

What exactly is righteous about threatening to kill millions of people who have nothing to do with anything that happened to the Hulk? Why do you feel some need to have it thusly viewed?

I'm not asking for a historical example, I'm asking how you, specifically personally believe that the idea of millions of people dying in a war that have nothing to do with it (i.e. women, children, the elderly, and the like) is a good and justifiable thing.



Why don´t you ask Tin Can and co ( the girly voiced fruitboy and rubberboy ) that question instead or have you fallen for his cliché filled rhetorical speach in the first issue. When will you understand that Hulk does not aspire to be accepted as an earthly hero anymore or to be left alone. He found a place where he developed to be a rightous ruler and where he finally atleast got some appriciation for his altruistic actions. He started to rebuild instead of destroying had a family untill the illuminatis spacecraft went of and destroyed his new found world, all its inhabitatants and his family. Now he seeks revenge for that wrong doing peroid. Why should he care about earths inhabitants when they´ve always treated him as an outcast. There are no friendly civilians in war ever. The fact that he shows any kind of symphaty towards anyone who isn´t illuminati is strange. It should be an eye for an eye. They annihilate saakar and the same fate should happen to them

[Magneto Rocks]

I never bought the idea of him being a futurist either.

You can't assemble a team the Thunderbolts (with the freaking Green Goblin as the leader for gods sake), then turn around and say with any credibility that you're a futurist. A blind, deaf mute would have better foresight than that.

Perhaps this is why he did not? He made a team who NEVER ONCE went out of control and mad. It was then OTHERS who put the Goblin in charge and kept it on after he wanted it disbanded.


Why don´t you ask Tin Can and co ( the girly voiced fruitboy and rubberboy ) that question instead or have you fallen for his cliché filled rhetorical speach in the first issue.

The one the writer himself says he really meant, the one the iron Man writer (for these tie-ins) says he went and the one consistent with forty years of behaviour? THAT speech?

Okay just checking.


When will you understand that Hulk does not aspire to be accepted as an earthly hero anymore or to be left alone. He found a place where he developed to be a rightous ruler and where he finally atleast got some appriciation for his altruistic actions. He started to rebuild instead of destroying had a family untill the illuminatis spacecraft went of and destroyed his new found world, all its inhabitatants and his family. Now he seeks revenge for that wrong doing peroid.

Except that's just it. Not justice. REVENGE. Automatically losing him credibility.


Why should he care about earths inhabitants when they´ve always treated him as an outcast.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, eh? Why is it I remember an old saying about this.. something ending in "blind and toothless?"


There are no friendly civilians in war ever.

Ergo it's okay if they get hurt?


The fact that he shows any kind of symphaty towards anyone who isn´t illuminati is strange. It should be an eye for an eye. They annihilate saakar and the same fate should happen to them

Course the "An Eye for an eye" theory is TOTALLY contrary to the nature of "good and bad", not to mention heroism in general but who cares as long as Hulk smashes, eh? Not to mention that we don't even KNOW if they annihilated Sakaar.


All the complaining we saw in Civil War from the government and public completely ignores the simple fact that the heroes did a very very good job. They have a ridiculously high sucess rate with a ridiculously low casualty rate.

Correct. But if it can be made a lower still casualty rate while not compromising the success rate, where's the downside?


Right, and as with the Civil War/New Warriors example, theres a rub: If the Illuminati hadn't shot Hulk into space, they never would have earned his enmity, or, intetionally or no, blown up the crown city of Sakaar, killing millions.

But again

A) Their motives were fifty times better than those of the New Warriors.
B) There was no way this could end without it being bad for the Illuminati- it's almost inevitable he would have gone on more rampages and then they would have been blamed, at least by one another, for the casualties he inevitably incurred. So they, unlike you, don't have the benefit of hindsight. lus we can't say for sure if Sakaar would be fine without the Illuminati and you can't say "Their ship so even if it was Miek, the Brood or whoever, their fault!" That's like saying it's Hulk's fault for being in the place which caused him to get hit with the gamma bomb triggering his last rampage!

[sookibong]

That really goes to the heart of the problem here... the MU citizens are a bunch of paranoid ingrates.

For all the collateral damage that heroes do, 99% of the time it's still nowhere near as bad as as it would have been had the hero NOT acted.

All the complaining we saw in Civil War from the government and public completely ignores the simple fact that the heroes did a very very good job. They have a ridiculously high sucess rate with a ridiculously low casualty rate.


Exactly. When I think of CW, I think of it in terms of an intrusive media (reality show about superheroes), a hysterical public (because they witnessed the event via the reality show), and a manipulative government (the reality of the MU government since day one). When I put it in those terms for myself, the story makes alot more sense and parallels the real world far more than Millar and company could have ever made it do so.

[Exo]

Nitro wasn't forced to blow up. He was put in a situation where he felt blowing himself was beneficial, and did so.

Given his ruthless nature, would any other responce from Nitro even be on the table? You don't reason with suicide bombers on site, you neutralize them before they get the chance to valuate their options. Nitro did what Nitro does and went boom, when he should never have gotten the choice in the first place.

And the catastrophe that is Stamford could have been avoided with a few rational (and easy) steps. But that's besides the point, these two events are incomparable IMO. Two different settings and two different outcomes.


As for Stark knowing that the plan to send Hulk to space wouldn't work... he outright admitted it in She-Hulk

I don't read She-Hulk (maybe I should), but it doesn't make any sense in sending the Hulk the way they planned it if Tony knew he'd return. The result was a bigger threat than before right? Why would Tony (mr.futurist) Stark want that? Doesn't make sense to me.

[ivesaidway2much]

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, eh? Why is it I remember an old saying about this.. something ending in "blind and toothless?"I don't know. The Hulk has a healing factor, so eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth is a very practical strategy for him.

A) Their motives were fifty times better than those of the New Warriors.The New Warriors started their TV show campaign so that they could help people from areas of the country that the other "heroes" didn't feel it necessary to patrol. To keep it going they needed money. And the only way to get that was through better ratings (their show had already been canceled once due to poor ratings). I really don't see how the Illuminati's alleged motives were any better than the actual motives of the New Warriors.

The villains they were fighting mostly relied on tech to supply their powers. So catching them off guard was probably the best strategy. And while the villains weren't doing anything at the time the NW attacked, just about any argument you could make in favor of Illuminati shooting the Hulk off into space would fit doubly so for a super-speed sociopath(Speed Freak) who has on mutiple occasions shown a joy for killing unpowered individuals, a guy (Cobalt Man) whose armor goes nuclear if he wears it too long, and another sociopath (Nitro) who in addition to numerous counts of attempted murder, already killed a fairly high level superhero. For instance, if either Nitro of Speed Freak had gotten bored and decided to kill people (like they've been known to do in the past) there is next to nothing anyone could do until after the fact. The NW had to act then or risk carrying the guilt of doing too little or nothing while innocents were slaughtered.


B) There was no way this could end without it being bad for the Illuminati- it's almost inevitable he would have gone on more rampages and then they would have been blamed, at least by one another, for the casualties he inevitably incurred.Um the Illuminati could have just contacted the appropriate legal authorities. And let them decide how to deal with the Hulk within the bounds of the law. Otherwise, what was the point of that Civil War thing?

So they, unlike you, don't have the benefit of hindsight.But Tony has the benefit of future sight, so it evens out.

lus we can't say for sure if Sakaar would be fine without the Illuminati and you can't say "Their ship so even if it was Miek, the Brood or whoever, their fault!" That's like saying it's Hulk's fault for being in the place which caused him to get hit with the gamma bomb triggering his last rampage!If you blame the NW for the fallout that occured when they preemptively tried to protect innocent lives (I don't), then I still don't see why you wouldn't do the same thing for all the innocent lives lost when the Illuminati tried to premptively protect people from the Hulk.

[XPac]

Perhaps this is why he did not? He made a team who NEVER ONCE went out of control and mad. It was then OTHERS who put the Goblin in charge and kept it on after he wanted it disbanded.




Either way you look at it, Stark let these monsters out and lost control of them. The fact that you're saying they're now in control of others is exactly why he shouldn't have done it in the first place.

That was the lesson of Mark Gruenwalds Squadron Supreme. He argued to Hyperion that the tools of one persons Utopia were the tools of another person's totalitarian state. Their system only worked so long as good people ran it.

That was the Squadrons flaw, and that might be Tonys. He created the New TBolts... but very quickly he lost control of it to the wrong people. And that was just the TBolts... the big nightmare is what happens if that happens to all of SHIELD or the rest of the hero community. Already Gyrich has a fair amount of influence over the Initiative and the TBolts.

[XPac]

Correct. But if it can be made a lower still casualty rate while not compromising the success rate, where's the downside?




Do I really have to go and list every issue I have with the Initiative and registration again?

I'll do it if it's necessary, but in general I'll say since Civil War I've yet to see a whole lot of improvement in the MU. If anything, things seems worse so I'm iffy whether the Initiative and Registration improved anything.

For the billions this is likely costing the MU citizens, as well as the huge personal cost the Civil War and registration has caused the hero community, I'm simply not seeing any indication that this was all worth it. I'm suspecting the only ones benefiting from all this in the long run will be the Skrulls.

[XPac]

Given his ruthless nature, would any other responce from Nitro even be on the table? You don't reason with suicide bombers on site, you neutralize them before they get the chance to valuate their options. Nitro did what Nitro does and went boom, when he should never have gotten the choice in the first place.

And the catastrophe that is Stamford could have been avoided with a few rational (and easy) steps. But that's besides the point, these two events are incomparable IMO. Two different settings and two different outcomes.



I don't read She-Hulk (maybe I should), but it doesn't make any sense in sending the Hulk the way they planned it if Tony knew he'd return. The result was a bigger threat than before right? Why would Tony (mr.futurist) Stark want that? Doesn't make sense to me.

You should read She-Hulk. It's a great book.

And I agree... it doesn't make sense. But then again, a lot of things Tony has done haven't made sense to me (Green Goblin and the Thunderbolts come to mind). That's part of the reason a lot of people have been critical of a lot of his actions over the past year and a half.

And I agree... Stamford could have been avoided by a few rational easy steps. But I'd say the same thing for WWH in regards to Starks plan to send Hulk away (something we both agree didn't make sense when you look at the big picture). In both cases, I don't think either party did the best thing, and people are going to pay for that mistake.

[sookibong]

You should read She-Hulk. It's a great book.

And I agree... it doesn't make sense. But then again, a lot of things Tony has done haven't made sense to me (Green Goblin and the Thunderbolts come to mind). That's part of the reason a lot of people have been critical of a lot of his actions over the past year and a half.


Tony has simply become overconfident in his ability to predict the future, such that he doesn't listen to his own doubts. He knew that given Hulk's persistent nature that a return was pretty damn possible and that it would be more devastating than all of his other rampages combined, but he was so excited about the prospect of simply washing Earth's hands of the problem and never having to deal with fighting his friend again that he took a very big risk.

He really needs to just take a step back and go back to doing what heroes are good at; reacting to disasters when they happen and saving as many people as they can. Despite what he has convinced himself, he doesn't have a responsibility to pre-emptively make the world a better place. Seriously the guy is starting to make Peter Parker look laid back. Dude's gonna have a heart attack.

[hyzmarca]

And I agree... Stamford could have been avoided by a few rational easy steps.

Name them, please, because I can't think of any, particularly not any that would have been available to the New Warriors given their financial situation and power sets.

Remember that only two people in the world knew that Nitro was on power-enhancing drugs, Nitro himself and the then CEO of Damage Control, Walter Declun. Nitro's powers were a joke. He couldn't explode with enough force to actually hurt anyone. His one claim to fame is that he exposed Mar-Vell to a gas that may have been carcinogenic and that may have contributed to his later development of cancer. (Given the amount of ionizing radiation that Captain Marvel must have soaked up while flying through space without a suit or a ship, I really wouldn't put much stock in that gas as an actual contributing factor.)

They had no reason to interrogate Declun and without this foreknowledge the extraordinary measures that would have been necessary to contain Nitro's powers can hardly be called reasonable. Anyone would have stumbled into the same trap, whether they be freelance superheroes or police officers. If a government force discovered the villain's safehouse then the result would have been the same though the backlash would have been much different and the MU USA would have probably outlawed all government-controled police forces

[Pendaran]

While I posted at length and bitterly in the early days on Civil War about the crap treatment the New Warriors got, part of why it bugged me was that it involved things like Namorita tackling a fleeing Nitro into a bus and children are basically right there. She might have at least waited until the guy was out of their range. Nitro has in fact had some potent explosions in his history, and the children right at the edge of the schoolyard were well in range of them, regardless of MGH. It was excessively reckless, and I was seriously annoyed by it.

Dwayne founded the team specifically as relating to helping people who suffered in situations like these. After fighting Terrax the second time they...

Blah..

I'm just going to get off onto that again.

I'll say simply, as someone that was an NW fan, part of why the portrayal was so aggravating was that they did indeed make a bunch of completely pointless mistakes that excarbated matters, that they had a guy on hand who could have said "'Nita! Wait till the exploding guy is clear of the children!" and been perfectly in character. Dwayne was the guy who was there to say things like that.

Sigh.

[XPac]

Name them, please, because I can't think of any, particularly not any that would have been available to the New Warriors given their financial situation and power sets.



My biggest fault with the New Warriors was starting a fight across the street from a school yard filled with children.

At that point, the villians weren't doing anything so I don't think it would have hurt waiting until the children were clear of the area. Contact the authorities, have them try and have the children evacuate as quietly as possible, then try to tackle the badguys. Even if they are now aware of Nitros power up, that's just too close in my opinion.

I do think a lot of people were too hard on the Warriors... but that said, there's no reason at all they needed to start a fight with a school yard filled with children across the street. That was a mistake.

[XPac]

While I posted at length and bitterly in the early days on Civil War about the crap treatment the New Warriors got, part of why it bugged me was that it involved things like Namorita tackling a fleeing Nitro into a bus and children are basically right there. She might have at least waited until the guy was out of their range. Nitro has in fact had some potent explosions in his history, and the children right at the edge of the schoolyard were well in range of them, regardless of MGH. It was excessively reckless, and I was seriously annoyed by it.

Dwayne founded the team specifically as relating to helping people who suffered in situations like these. After fighting Terrax the second time they...

Blah..

I'm just going to get off onto that again.

I'll say simply, as someone that was an NW fan, part of why the portrayal was so aggravating was that they did indeed make a bunch of completely pointless mistakes that excarbated matters, that they had a guy on hand who could have said "'Nita! Wait till the exploding guy is clear of the children!" and been perfectly in character. Dwayne was the guy who was there to say things like that.

Sigh.

To a degree, I suppose one can excuse Namoritas mistake because of his power up.

Had she been able to knock him out in that blow, the fight would have been over. And really there's no reason at all he shouldn't have been knocked out. She's strong enough to do it. I guess his power up might have increased his durability to a degree. Her strategey, while reckless arguably SHOULD have worked.

[Pendaran]

Had she been able to knock him out in that blow, the fight would have been over. And really there's no reason at all he shouldn't have been knocked out

Eh, Nitro's managed to stay up in several appearances after taking some particularly hard hits, it was just bad overall, and so easily avoidable, and involving people who specifically know better. It's what takes it from depressing to read as an NW fan, to infuriating.

Man, it still bugs me.

[Stafnbui]

" The one the writer himself says he really meant, the one the iron Man writer (for these tie-ins) says he went and the one consistent with forty years of behaviour? THAT speech?

Okay just checking."

Who cares what he says. It´s the actions of one man that defines him - not what he says and the tin cans actions resently is worthy of a true dictator and war criminal. I´ll give the tin can credit for one thing though atleast he for once is trying to take responsebility for his actions alone. He faces the hulk in the frontline alone - thats one characteristic that all leaders should look up too.

As far as the hulk is concerned - why should he care what people think about him. As he himself ( and the authors that portray him ) states countless of times for all the good he has done the puny humans still call him monster and when the #@$ hits the fan then they come crying for help only to in the end call him monster again. Now he found a place where he actually got some credit for his altruistic behaviour, he tried to explain that he is a monster yet they still belived in him. He then lived up to the expectations and started to succesfully rebuild a society only to have it destroyed by some stupid puny humans. So he brings war to thoes who started it just like in real life. What justification where there to bomb dresden, nagasaki, hiroshima? Retalition/Revenge right? And yeah hulk will be fine as long as he takes 2 eyes and all the tooth for an eye.

[ivesaidway2much]

My biggest fault with the New Warriors was starting a fight across the street from a school yard filled with children.

At that point, the villians weren't doing anything so I don't think it would have hurt waiting until the children were clear of the area. Contact the authorities, have them try and have the children evacuate as quietly as possible, then try to tackle the badguys. Even if they are now aware of Nitros power up, that's just too close in my opinion.

I do think a lot of people were too hard on the Warriors... but that said, there's no reason at all they needed to start a fight with a school yard filled with children across the street. That was a mistake.But did it really matter? There were 60 kids in that school, but Nitro's explosion killed over 600 people. Stamford was leveled. No matter where in that town the fight took place (or even if they were evacuated several blocks away), those kids never had a real chance.

[XPac]

But did it really matter? There were 60 kids in that school, but Nitro's explosion killed over 600 people. Stamford was leveled. No matter where in that town the fight took place (or even if they were evacuated several blocks away), those kids never had a real chance.

Against an upgraded Nitro perhaps it would not have mattered... that still doesn't make it any less stupid or reckless to pick a fight across the street from a schoolyard filled with children.

That's a level of cluelessness deserving of criticism regardless of the outcome of Stamford and the outside forces involved.