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Red Oak Kid
06-15-2007, 04:24 PM
I was just wondering what single artist has drawn the greatest number of pages for DC comics?

And which artist has drawn the greatest number of pages for Marvel?

I speaking strictly of penciled pages. Not inkers. And covers count as one page.

In the case of DC, the time frame would begin back sometime in the 40s whenever they became officially known as DC Comics.

As for Marvel, I'm starting them with the Atlas comics from the 50s. I'm not counting when they were known as Timely. But that is arbitrary and if you want to count Timely that's OK.

My guess for DC would be either Infantino or Kubert. They started about the same time but Kubert lasted longer. So Kubert may be the champ at DC. However I'm probably overlooking some obvious Superman artist. And Bob Kane does not count since he used ghosts.

My guess for Marvel would be between John Buscema and Gene Colan. But maybe I'm overlooking Kirby. Those 100 issues of FF may add up to more than I realise.

And if anyone wants to take a stab at Dell, or Charlton be my guest.

DCIndexer
06-15-2007, 05:20 PM
According to my records Curt Swan is the winner for DC. I don't have numbers on the exact number of pages but he did at least
1351 stories for DC.

Other artists with more than 500 stories:
Infantino: 877 stories
Gil Kane: 731 stories
Sheldon Mayer: 716 stories
Ross Andru: 635 stories
Dick Dillin: 560 stories
Joe Kubert: 525 stories
George Papp: 515 stories

These numbers are all from the 1935-1986 (pre-Crisis) period. Obviously Kane, Swan, and others did more stories afterword but the vast majority of their work falls within this time frame.

Some artists spent time just doing inks but were also pencillers. Sheldon Moldoff did 727 stories and Murphy Anderson 557, but I don't have breakdowns on how many were pencils vs. inks only.

The page counts on stories did vary depending on title/publication era, but since each of these artists worked during the same period the average page count per story is likely pretty close for each of them.

Kubert was DC's leading cover artist with 1144 covers.
Swan is second among pencillers with 953.
Both are far above the next tier of artists.
Kane: 570
Cardy: 568
Anderson: 553
Andru: 458
Neal Adams: 458
Moldoff: 421
Infantino: 384
Honorable mention goes to Dick Giordano who did: 1007 covers though many were as an inker.

DCIndexer
Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics
http://www.dcindexes.com

DDM
06-15-2007, 05:28 PM
John Byrne has a phenominal amount of pages drawn for Marvel & DC Comics. When he was with Marvel, he penciled about two books a month--Uncanny X-Men & Marvel Team-Up, but in between he also penciled The Fantastic Four (before he was the writer on the book), The Avengers (two different stints in 1977 then again in 1979); furthermore, before he got the X-Men, he also penciled Iron Fist & The Champions. These are all comics from his 70's work. Once he left Uncanny X-Men for The Fantastic Four (pencils, inks, story), he only did FF-related stuff such as The Silver Surfer #1 (pencils & story) one shot.

For sheer volume of work, I would next say John Romita Jr who has been penciling for Marvel Comics since the late 70's; he remains with the company this day. He's done everything from Amazing Spider-Man, Uncanny X-Men, Daredevil, etc, etc, etc.

Citizen V
06-15-2007, 06:04 PM
Its ironic,i thought Jack Kirby would be somewhere in such a discussion.

Bill Angus
06-15-2007, 06:40 PM
I would've thought Herb Trimpe would be fairly high on the Marvel list...

Swan & Kubert were my first thoughts for DC.

benday-dot
06-15-2007, 07:03 PM
My guess for Marvel would be between John Buscema and Gene Colan. But maybe I'm overlooking Kirby. Those 100 issues of FF may add up to more than I realise.

Fascinating question ROK. I used to have the semi-recognized, semi-official Kirby page output at hand, but it eludes me as I write. Nevertheless, the rough estimate for Kirby pencilled pages (interiors and covers) from late 1958 to 1970 (when Kirby joined Atlas to his departure to DC) is said to be about 10 000. I have been trying to come up with my own figure for the Kirby second coming at Marvel, based on my own knowledge of his work and using the GCD, and it would seem to be somewhere between 1300 and 1400 additional pages stacked onto the previous count. So maybe 13000 to 14 000?


As for Marvel, I'm starting them with the Atlas comics from the 50s. I'm not counting when they were known as Timely. But that is arbitrary and if you want to count Timely that's OK.

This is tougher. A lot of those Timely's ran to 68 or so pages, with Jack helping out with upwards to perhaps 53-55 of those counting covers in Captain America alone (and he was involved in 10 issues), coming to about 540, then there is less frequent work on All-Winners, Young Allies and USA Comics, coming to about another 75 pages. Finally there is work on Marvel Mystery (primarly the Vision) coming to about 90 pages, and Red Raven with 16 pages. What am I forgetting? Well, lets leave it at that... so about 721 more pages to the grand total.

I don't know, however, if even this prodigous output can put Jack as the King of quantity (to add to his quality crown).

Your guess of Gene Colan may just be spot on. His term at Marvel, and for so long he only seemed to be at Marvel, was vast in years. Romita would be high too, but I can't see him beating Colan. John Buscema? He would be close to the top, but would he eclipse brother Sal, whose page count in the 70's and 80's might have been second to none?

Kirk G
06-15-2007, 07:42 PM
Its ironic,i thought Jack Kirby would be somewhere in such a discussion.

I agree, he should be tops on the list.
In addition to those stories he completely drew, consider the hundreds that he "laid out" for other follow-up artists to finish.
Considering his work back in the 40s, 50s, mainstream 60s where he virtually did all the early major Marvel ("excuse me misters Ditko, Ayers, Heck, Romita, Lieber and others...") I would think the handwriting would have been on the wall...

That Jack was King,
and Byrne comes in a close second with others in major long runs (like Colan or Romitas) also contenders.

[HELLO MARK EVANIER....WHERE ARE YOU WHEN WE NEED YOU???]

benday-dot
06-15-2007, 09:00 PM
I agree, he should be tops on the list.
In addition to those stories he completely drew, consider the hundreds that he "laid out" for other follow-up artists to finish.
Considering his work back in the 40s, 50s, mainstream 60s where he virtually did all the early major Marvel ("excuse me misters Ditko, Ayers, Heck, Romita, Lieber and others...") I would think the handwriting would have been on the wall...

That Jack was King,
and Byrne comes in a close second with others in major long runs (like Colan or Romitas) also contenders.

[HELLO MARK EVANIER....WHERE ARE YOU WHEN WE NEED YOU???]

Besides the very early 40's and very late 50's Kirby spent most of his time at companies other than Marvel during these two decades. I think ROK was talking about the penciller with the most pages/covers drawn at Atlas/Marvel. Although, as you can see from my post above his many thousands of pages still certainly ranks him at or near the top for the period from late 1958 to 1970, and then again from 1976 to 1978, when Kirby returned to Marvel for the last time (besides I think FF #236, in 1981).

benday-dot
06-15-2007, 09:22 PM
For Charlton, one of these three: Steve Ditko, Charles Nicholas, or Bill Molno.

spoon_jenkins
06-15-2007, 10:34 PM
I think Jack Kirby is probably tops at Marvel.

When it comes to Kirby, you can't just compare the length of his stints at Marvel in terms of time to others, because he was more prolific in any given month. Checking the GCD, it seems that many months in the 1960s, Kirby was doing 7 or 8 stories in a month. Many of those would be the half-book-length stories, but still it's more than other folks. Kirby also did a lot of covers on others interior work. In contrast, it seems like in the late 1960s for example, Gene Colan was usually doing 1 and a half to 2 and a half books a month. And did Colan really do much Marvel work after 1980.

I think both the late John and Sal Buscema are pretty high up there because of both career longevity and because their careers were so Marvel heavy. Sal still inks Spider-Girl (although that doesn't count for this).

Even though Byrne has spent a lot of time in the 90s and 00s at other publishers, his case is helped because he has tended to work on multiple books simultaneously.

I don't think John Romita Sr. is a top contender, because a lot of his time probably went into art director duties and the Spidey newspaper strip. I can't think of a really lengthy run he had outside of Amazing Spider-Man, although I'm guessing that his 50s work in other genres (which I'm not really familiar with) was extensive.

John Romita Jr. is probably pretty high up there. Unlike most contemporary pencillers, he has frequently drawn more than one title at the same time.

InfoBroker
06-15-2007, 11:17 PM
I was going to chime in early and state what I thought would be very obvious.

Jack Kirby produced a ton of material for Marvel during his silver-age stay there. In terms of number of pages, the Jack Kirby checklist that I have buried in a box around here somewhere stated that his greatest yearly peak was 1963 or 64 timeframe when he was producing somewhere between 90 to as much as 140 pages per month. At least as it aligned to the stated publishing months on the covers of the comics. That number gets a bit distorted upward, because of the bi-monthly nature of the early X-men and Avengers comics, and the lead dating anomaly of 2 or 3 months depending on the title. But the yearly totals still comes out at astounding numbers, no matter how you slice and dice the months.

Dang I wish I could find that checklist..,

Well it's not gonna happen, but lookie what I found online (http://www.marvelmasterworks.com/resources/kirby_chronology2.html). Save yourself some work there Benday, the Tomorrows people already have the tally complete.

It's interesting to watch the peaks and valleys (and even the valleys exceed many other artists peaks - and significantly). In those numbers you can see the point in 1966 when Jack pulls back doing layout work for other artists (and giving Marvel pretty much free plotting of DD, Hulk and other titles). It was pretty much all focused on FF and Thor going from there.

So anyway, yea I was going to use all of this to state the obvious, that Jack Kirby takes the crown with a commanding lead.

But then I got to thinking about DDM 's comment and all that wonderful material that JR JR has done over the past 27 or so years at Marvel, and like he says, on a nice steady basis. My rough guess is that JR probably averages 30 or so pages a month over that long timeframe.

I haven't found a site that provides nice page count material for JRJR, but here's a place (http://home.wanadoo.nl/pafrankn/jrj_intro.htm) that lists most, if not all of the titles he has worked on, probably derived from the search capabilities at GCD.

I'm thinking that it is very likely that JRJR has indeed surpassed Kirby's astonding numbers at Marvel, or at least he has turned it into a race.

-jb the (if I get the time (and permission from Kimo) I will probably start an underated artist thread for JRJR ) ib -

Reptisaurus!
06-16-2007, 01:13 AM
I dunno... Sal Buscema was at Marvel longer than Kirby. (At least in total number of years.) He was drawing Spider-man until well into the nineties. And his output during the seventies was HUGE. I'd wager he produced more total pages than even Kirby.

(Though I'm sure Kirby did more pages for DC and Marvel combined.)

I woulda guessed Curt Swan and Sheldon Mayer for DC. So I was close. :)

I sincerely doubt that Byrne is in the top twenty for either company. Probably not even combined.

T GUy
06-16-2007, 01:39 AM
DCIndexer:

According to my records Curt Swan is the winner for DC. I don't have numbers on the exact number of pages but he did at least
1351 stories for DC.

Other artists with more than 500 stories:

No mention of my instinctual guess of Mike Sekowsky? At least as a 500+ stories penciller. My guess is that a story in every romance comic for ten years or so would mount up over seven titles, even with not all (any?) of them being monthly. Or does it just seem like he is in every romance comic of that era?

90-odd issues of the JLA is merely the filling in the sandwich, and all those sci-fi shorts for Julius Schwartz are some salad popped in with the ham.

InfoBroker:

Jack Kirby produced a ton of material for Marvel during his silver-age stay there...

It's interesting to watch the peaks and valleys (and even the valleys exceed many other artists peaks - and significantly).

Yeah, you read through that checklist and at some point think 'only 70 pages this month? Were you ill, Jack?' and then realise that that represents two and a half comics...

Kirby's 'problem' in this 'race' is that he had that high-output burst in the first half of the 'sixties, then cut back (for a reason we needn't concern ourselves with here), then left Marvel and came back for three years. In contrast, Sal Buscema was drawing a steady two or three comics each month from about 1968 to, what, 1985? (I see elsewhere in this thread that it's virtually up to today).

scratchie
06-16-2007, 07:31 AM
Sal Buscema was drawing a steady two or three comics each month from about 1968 to, what, 1985? (I see elsewhere in this thread that it's virtually up to today).Our pal Sal was the first name that popped into my head when I saw this thread.

InfoBroker
06-16-2007, 07:53 AM
Just some minor foots to note:

Sal's first work at Marvel was inking his brother's work on Silver Surfer.

His first penciled comic was Avengers #69, that was in 1969, and for the first year or so his pace was about 1 full comic and a couple of covers.

His two comics or so per month pace seems to establish itself in the summer of 1971, and that's the pencilling side. He was also inking on occassion, including some very early Barry Smith Conan material.

I concur he produced a lot of material, especially in the 70s to early 90s.

The GCD (so far) has 1381 entries (cover or a story) for SB as a penciller, 659 for JRJR and 6618(!) for Jack Kirby. Those numbers might provide some context, but not too much I fear for they include reprints(domestic and foreign), and twinkie ads.

-jb (its those twinkie ads that really skew the numbers) ib -

Red Oak Kid
06-16-2007, 08:15 AM
Judging from the responses, everyone is having fun with this thread.

Some points make me nervous tho.

I don't think it is fair to the other artists to include Kirby's credits for page layouts. Including those would give him an unfair advantage IMO.

Trying to estimate an artist's page count based on the number of stories he did is also a slippery slope. A lot of Kirby's early work at Marvel was 5 page stories. And a lot of Curt Swan stories in Superboy were short. Most Superboy comics in the early 60s had 3 stories per issue and Swan did not draw all three stories. Not to mention the Action Comics Weekly where there were only two pages by Swan, but this might be counted as a story on the GCD.

And I hadn't thought of the reprint factor till Infobroker mentioned it. Obviously reprints don't count.

I stand corrected on Kubert. I realize now that many of the DC comics he did covers for did not contain any interior art by him. And a lot of the Golden Age books he worked on were published quarterly or bi monthly.

It's interesting that the older posters here tend to go with Kirby and the younger ones seem to go with Byrne and JR Jr.

InfoBroker
06-16-2007, 08:32 AM
I don't think it is fair to the other artists to include Kirby's credits for page layouts. Including those would give him an unfair advantage IMO.

I was thinking about that last night as well, but the mark of demarking becomes hard to do. Essentially in the late 70s and 80s, much of John Buscema's and Sal Buscema's "pencils" weren't much more than breakdowns for the inkers or other artists to finish. That was as much an editorial request as it might have been personal desire (depending on the book). In many ways, Jack's layouts were more complete than the breakdown formula Marvel was employing in those later years.


Trying to estimate an artist's page count based on the number of stories he did is also a slippery slope...

Yeppers, and don't forget those twinkies.


It's interesting that the older posters here tend to go with Kirby and the younger ones seem to go with Byrne and JR Jr.

Then there's me, who is favoring both Jack and John. Does that make the oldest youngster, or the youngest oldster?

-jb the (maybe I'm just timeless) ib -

spoon_jenkins
06-16-2007, 08:53 AM
It's interesting that the older posters here tend to go with Kirby and the younger ones seem to go with Byrne and JR Jr.
I'm in my 20s and I'm picking Kirby.

On further reflection, Byrne probably hasn't produced as many Marvel pages as I thought. Some factors are deceptive. For instance, he's had runs that were memorable but short. And because he's done a lot of covers without interiors, he seems more ubiquitous than he really is. Contrast that with Sal Buscema, who has pencilled a lot of issues in which someone else did the cover. Also, many of Byrne's more productive years at Marvel was during the 17-page story era.

InfoBroker
06-16-2007, 08:58 AM
I sincerely doubt that Byrne is in the top twenty for either company. Probably not even combined.

My feelings too. While his stint on X-men is certainly classic material, it doesn't take but one Essential or so to cover it. His run starts with 112 or so, and ends with 141. It probably surprises a few fans (myself included) to realize his second run on the FF was longer(232-293) and they also had more pages overall.

And just how are things in the Hawkeye State's first capital city this fine morning?

-jb the (you'd think Clint would show up at the State Fair once in awhile) ib -

InfoBroker
06-16-2007, 09:07 AM
Oops I see Spoons and I are melding our minds on the same topic at the same time this morning (John Byrne's output).

Careful there Spoons, according to the Surgeon General, and a dedicated staff of brain doctors here at Mayo Clinic, thinking like an Infobroker can be dangerous to one's health.

-jb the (its safer to meld cards) ib -

Red Oak Kid
06-16-2007, 09:07 AM
I was thinking about that last night as well, but the mark of demarking becomes hard to do. Essentially in the late 70s and 80s, much of John Buscema's and Sal Buscema's "pencils" weren't much more than breakdowns for the inkers or other artists to finish. That was as much an editorial request as it might have been personal desire (depending on the book). In many ways, Jack's layouts were more complete than the breakdown formula Marvel was employing in those later years.

-

Ya got me on that one. Maybe layouts should count.

And don't forget that the original art pages used to be larger than the current size. I think it changed sometime in the 60s. For example it takes one and a third pieces of new art to equal one page of the old art. Maybe IB could develop a mathematical formula for comparing the two sizes.

Before lunch.

Red Oak Kid
06-16-2007, 09:20 AM
For Charlton, one of these three: Steve Ditko, Charles Nicholas, or Bill Molno.

I'm betting on the guy(s) who drew all those issues of Fightin' Army, Fightin' Marines, Fightin' Air Force etc.

benday-dot
06-16-2007, 09:27 AM
Re: the "do we count layouts/breakdowns in the page count debate." Just a clarification, and then to throw in another point in the debate.

The 10 000 pages of Kirby pencils from late '58 through 1970 (i.e Atlas/Marvel) I included in my above post came from a Glen Gold article on Kirby "stolen/missing art." Gold is a well known comic book art collector/dealer and he provides his figure in the context of the 1974 decision of Marvel's to start returning original art to the penciler/inkers responsible. Maybe it was the approximate agreed to Kirby/Marvel figure of the recoginized Kirby penciled pages. My Timely and 1976-1978 Kirby Marvel page counts were purely my own semi-informed extrapolations.

So... ROK's question of page count is certainly an important one in terms of the context of the once very heated matter of the return of original Kirby artwork.

I forget what the proportion of distribution of pages to penciler and inker is, but would it have less to do with the weight of "perceived contribution" than it would with the weight of officially assigned and credited roles? Traditionally, I believe the question of attribution is weighed more toward the penciler than with the inker, so the penciler received more of the artwork back than did the inker. If the credits merely listed an artist as under "layouts or breakdowns" without a separate penciler credit, but one with a clear designation for inker/embellisher/finisher I am not sure if this is sufficient to detract from the the authorial responsibilty of the penciler, as it would not negate (at least in Marvel) those initial duties of plotter, and so I am equally unsure if this sort of divsion of artistic chores, where an inker's end contribution to the published artwork is significantly more pronounced, also would serve to increase that inker's claim for greater authorship and so ownership of the body of original artwork.

Okay that's confusing, and I hope I made a bit of sense. If I did at all I know one of you crackerjacks will have answers.

And I'm sorry if, with this side issue, I detracted from the original intent of your thread ROK.

InfoBroker
06-16-2007, 09:32 AM
Maybe IB could develop a mathematical formula for comparing the two sizes.

Did 'ja know dept: Circa 1970 or so, fans criticized John Romita's Spider-man because he didn't put as many panels on the page as Steve Ditko. How silly can ya get?

Did 'ja know dept:[part 2] When the new size edict came down(1968), Ditko offered to reimburse Charlton the money they were saving on film if they would let him continue to draw 2X size?

Did 'ja know dept:[part 3] Even before the size edict, Jim Aparo's art was always drawn 1 and 1/2X size. Dick Giordano, editor at Charlton at the time, found it interesting anyway.

Did 'ja know dept:[part 4]It goes without saying that Jack Kirby hated it.

-jb the (so why am I saying it?) ib -

Red Oak Kid
06-16-2007, 09:36 AM
And I'm sorry if, with this side issue, I detracted from the original intent of your thread ROK.

No you didn't.

But you made my brain hurt.

I think I'll just replace this thread with a "Who's stronger, Hulk or Thor?" poll.

:D :D :D

scratchie
06-16-2007, 10:12 AM
Did 'ja know dept:[part 4]It goes without saying that Jack Kirby hated it.I've noticed that a lot of his Fourth World work features only four panels to a page, and I'm guessing that this might be related to the change in paper size.

benday-dot
06-16-2007, 10:20 AM
I've noticed that a lot of his Fourth World work features only four panels to a page, and I'm guessing that this might be related to the change in paper size.

You may be right, but Jack did dig the larger panels as his career progressed. It could even be he'd just love to have done a comic composed entirely of full page panel spreads!

T GUy
06-16-2007, 10:28 AM
Did 'ja know dept:[part 2] When the new size edict came down(1968), Ditko offered to reimburse Charlton the money they were saving on film if they would let him continue to draw 2X size?

Did 'ja know dept:[part 3] Even before the size edict, Jim Aparo's art was always drawn 1 and 1/2X size. Dick Giordano, editor at Charlton at the time, found it interesting anyway.- InfoBroker

I have heard that Charlton did not have any edicts re original page size (Pat Boyette drew printed size, ISTR).


I've noticed that a lot of his Fourth World work features only four panels to a page Ben Day-Dot

Until Captain Victory, the record was The Eternals No. 3, with 52 panels in 17 pages (from memory).

DCIndexer
06-16-2007, 11:58 AM
I worked up some new SQL queries to calculate page counts for each artist at DC.

It didn't change the rankings much from my earlier list, though Sheldon Mayer did far fewer pages than the others since many of his stories were very short by comparison.

Artist Page Counts:
Swan: 17138 + 953 covers
Infantino: 10198 + 384 covers
Andru: 7928 + 458 covers
Gil Kane: 7924 + 570 covers
Dillin: 7515 + 308 covers
Kubert: 6611 + 1144 covers
Novick: 6343 + 201 covers
Kirby: 6144 + 250 covers

Many people have mentioned Byrne who did about 2019 pages at DC before 1990. Obviously he did a ton of work after that, but in order to catch Swan he would have had to do over 650 full 22 page stories from 1990-present. Since his output was split between DC and Marvel, I don't think he did that many DC books. Still he should easily crack the top 10 at DC overall.

Here's a link to the full list. http://www.dcindexes.com/database/storycredits.php. Obviously there are writer, letterers, inkers, and colorists mixed in on this list too. It still amazes me to see Kanigher's output totals.

Unlike GCD reprinted stories/pages are not included, so this should be a more accurate reflection.

DCIndexer
Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics
http://www.dcindexes.com

damienwhiter
06-16-2007, 01:04 PM
I suspect it would turn out to be someone pretty low profile who hung around for a long time at one of the companies. Sal Buscema could be a likely person at Marvel as he did very little work for anyone else, whereas artists like Kirby, Byrne and even Infantino & Sekowsky moved around. For DC, Curt Swan would be a good guess, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that Joe Staton might beat him now he's been averaging 30+ pages a month since the mid 80s and worked for them intermittently before then.

Red Oak Kid
06-16-2007, 01:18 PM
I worked up some new SQL queries to calculate page counts for each artist at DC.

It didn't change the rankings much from my earlier list, though Sheldon Mayer did far fewer pages than the others since many of his stories were very short by comparison.

Artist Page Counts:
Swan: 17138 + 953 covers
Infantino: 10198 + 384 covers
Andru: 7928 + 458 covers
Gil Kane: 7924 + 570 covers
Dillin: 7515 + 308 covers
Kubert: 6611 + 1144 covers
Novick: 6343 + 201 covers
Kirby: 6144 + 250 covers

DCIndexer
Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics
http://www.dcindexes.com

That gap between Swan and Infantino really stuns me.:eek:

I know I excluded anything by Bob Kane because of the ghosts he hired to draw Batman, but now I'm curious how many pages could be attributed to the Bob Kane name.

MWGallaher
06-16-2007, 01:34 PM
That gap between Swan and Infantino really stuns me.:eek:

I know I excluded anything by Bob Kane because of the ghosts he hired to draw Batman, but now I'm curious how many pages could be attributed to the Bob Kane name.

That really ought to be easy to compute. About 160 issues of Batman times whatever the average Batman page count was, plus 300 issues of Detective times average 'Tec page count...Taking a stab:
160*30 + 300*13 = 8700.

Joe S. Walker
06-16-2007, 02:02 PM
Anyone care to estimate how many Bob Kane pages actually included work by Bob Kane?

DCIndexer
06-16-2007, 02:26 PM
Anyone care to estimate how many Bob Kane pages actually included work by Bob Kane?

I show that Bob Kane did about 2222 actual pages.

Looks like the link I posted earlier was incorrect. Here's the right one:
http://www.dcindexes.com/database/showcredits.php

DCIndexer
Mike's Amazing World of DC Comics
http://www.dcindexes.com

Reptisaurus!
06-16-2007, 07:58 PM
My feelings too. While his stint on X-men is certainly classic material, it doesn't take but one Essential or so to cover it. His run starts with 112 or so, and ends with 141. It probably surprises a few fans (myself included) to realize his second run on the FF was longer(232-293) and they also had more pages overall.


I'm tryin' to think of other stuff he did - I might be missing something. There was a dozen or so issues of Marvel Team-Up, a couple of Two-In-Ones, some Thing-s, some Iron Fist, a second run on some X-men book during the nineties (And probably some other stuff.)

Now that I think about it he did more'n I thought. But I betcha that, say, Gene Colan or who had these HUGE runs on multiple titles or Don Heck who did a bunch of material for pre-"Marvel" Marvel did more.


And just how are things in the Hawkeye State's first capital city this fine morning?


Freaking. Hot! :) But sunny and nice.

spoon_jenkins
06-16-2007, 08:14 PM
I'm tryin' to think of other stuff he did - I might be missing something. There was a dozen or so issues of Marvel Team-Up, a couple of Two-In-Ones, some Thing-s, some Iron Fist, a second run on some X-men book during the nineties (And probably some other stuff.)

Now that I think about it he did more'n I thought. But I betcha that, say, Gene Colan or who had these HUGE runs on multiple titles or Don Heck who did a bunch of material for pre-"Marvel" Marvel did more.
Near the beginning of the thread, DDM mentioned that Byrne also did Avengers and Champions.

Byrne also had a stint on Captain America circa 1980. He drew the first 28 issues of Alpha Flight (I'd guess it's his 3rd longest Marvel title run). He had a brief Hulk run before leaving for DC in the mid-80s. When he returned to Marvel in the late 80s, he drew Avengers West Coast, She-Hulk, and Namor.

InfoBroker
06-17-2007, 11:37 AM
Just to be clear about a previous comment of mine:


It's interesting to watch the peaks and valleys (and even the valleys exceed many other artists peaks - and significantly). In those numbers you can see the point in 1966 when Jack pulls back doing layout work for other artists (and giving Marvel pretty much free plotting of DD, Hulk and other titles). It was pretty much all focused on FF and Thor going from there.

The period that Jack was doing layouts was very brief, a handful of months circa late 1965 and early 66. Finish work was done by John Romita, George Tuska, Gil Kane, and Bill Everett (on the Hulk ironically). These were all well established artists. The the purpose of Jack doing the layouts was to aid Marvel in expanding its staff by bringing the "new" artists up to speed on the styles and methods of Marvel(make that Kirby) of the sixties. So besides doing his regular 50-60 pages per month of finsihed pencils, Jack was doing another 30-40 pages of material where he was called upon to flesh out plot, establish page layouts (considered to be two of the toughest parts of the comic cration process), along with training (which is usually high paid consultant work, or managerial in scope), and getting paid less than his freelance finished page rates. This at the same time that Marvel has more than doubled its sales figures in less than three years.


-jb the (clarifying a point, well several points ) ib -

Slam_Bradley
06-17-2007, 11:43 AM
That gap between Swan and Infantino really stuns me.:eek:



Keep in mind that Infantino spent a number of prime years as Publisher of DC Comics, which certainly took a lot of time away from the drawing table. Also during that time he layed out a ton of covers.

spoon_jenkins
06-17-2007, 12:39 PM
It's interesting to watch the peaks and valleys (and even the valleys exceed many other artists peaks - and significantly). In those numbers you can see the point in 1966 when Jack pulls back doing layout work for other artists (and giving Marvel pretty much free plotting of DD, Hulk and other titles).
Clarification: you're not saying that Kirby plotted pre-1966 Daredevil, right? I just figured he only plotted what he drew.


Keep in mind that Infantino spent a number of prime years as Publisher of DC Comics, which certainly took a lot of time away from the drawing table. Also during that time he layed out a ton of covers.
Also, Infantino didn't exclusively work for DC. He drew Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, I think some Avengers.

scratchie
06-17-2007, 12:48 PM
Also, Infantino didn't exclusively work for DC. He drew Ms. Marvel, Spider-Woman, I think some Avengers.That was after he left DC, I'm pretty sure. I don't imagine he was pencilling for Marvel while he was Publisher at DC.

spoon_jenkins
06-17-2007, 02:11 PM
That was after he left DC, I'm pretty sure. I don't imagine he was pencilling for Marvel while he was Publisher at DC.
Yeah, I just meant that during his career he did non-DC work for a significant amount of time, so that would be another factor in the gap between Swan's total and Infantino's total

Red Oak Kid
06-17-2007, 02:33 PM
I understand the Infantino points you make.

I'm probably underestimating the amount of work that Swan did in the 50s.

benday-dot
06-17-2007, 05:16 PM
Just to be clear about a previous comment of mine:



The period that Jack was doing layouts was very brief, a handful of months circa late 1965 and early 66. Finish work was done by John Romita, George Tuska, Gil Kane, and Bill Everett (on the Hulk ironically). These were all well established artists. The the purpose of Jack doing the layouts was to aid Marvel in expanding its staff by bringing the "new" artists up to speed on the styles and methods of Marvel(make that Kirby) of the sixties. So besides doing his regular 50-60 pages per month of finsihed pencils, Jack was doing another 30-40 pages of material where he was called upon to flesh out plot, establish page layouts (considered to be two of the toughest parts of the comic cration process), along with training (which is usually high paid consultant work, or managerial in scope), and getting paid less than his freelance finished page rates. This at the same time that Marvel has more than doubled its sales figures in less than three years.


-jb the (clarifying a point, well several points ) ib -

Nice points JB. Earlier on I asked the confusing question regarding original art return. Your post here allows me to ask in more straight forward fashion if those pages where Kirby only provided breakdowns or layouts would also be counted as holding sufficient Kirby artistic authorship to be included under the page count that would be at least partially owed to Kirby under Marvel's formula of original art return to artist and inker responsible. In other words how much of a claim could the Kirby estate lay upon those additional 30-40 pages per month where he was providing significant artistic assist even if he wasn't given primary penciler credit?

Citizen V
06-17-2007, 06:47 PM
Its a shame we dont have exact numbers,or exeplenations.Since ive read more than once,that records concerning Kirby,Kane,Beck or Buscema does not really exist.They were destroyed,or simply not counted.Since no one really bothered to catelog work at that time.

InfoBroker
06-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Clarification: you're not saying that Kirby plotted pre-1966 Daredevil, right? I just figured he only plotted what he drew.


My comment about essentially free plots to Marvel refers to his doing layout work circa 1965-66. Besides the previously mentioned Captain America and Hulk, it also included the layouts for the first few issues of Daredevil that John Romita worked on. Issues 12-14. Besides the printed work, the second Daredevil Masterworks includes several "discarded" layout pages.

Shield layout work to be finished by John Severin would also be part of Jack's workload in that timeframe.

I don't know if Marvel had a voucher system in place in that time frame. I don't know how they handled payment for unpublished "freelance" material.

Side-note: Kirby also helped patch, repair, the first issue of DD. But that was a different work arrangement.

-jb the ib -

InfoBroker
06-18-2007, 09:17 PM
I've noticed that a lot of his Fourth World work features only four panels to a page, and I'm guessing that this might be related to the change in paper size.

It would have been a contributor, but as BD mentions, the dynamics of the stories he was doing in that time frame probably demanded more room as well. He had already been using a lot of 4 panel pages already, especially for Tales of Asgard. Other factors include the changing tastes of the time, and even the diminishing print/paper quality.

-jb the (catching up on threads) ib - (forum availability has been sparse)

InfoBroker
06-18-2007, 11:14 PM
I have heard that Charlton did not have any edicts re original page size (Pat Boyette drew printed size, ISTR).

It might have been a different editor and different company , but given the time frame I'm pretty sure it was Charlton.

The edict might have been "draw to a size that allows two pages to be mounted on the copy-camera and shot onto one sheet of film", with the largest size allowed being the 1&1/2x dimensions. But I'm only speculating about that one.

One edict I'm pretty sure they had from the get go: The drawn page size can't be bigger than the size of the copy-camera mounting board.


Until Captain Victory, the record was The Eternals No. 3, with 52 panels in 17 pages (from memory).

Interesting. I wonder if any of the Fourth World books have a smaller panel per page ratio. Forever People #4 always struck me as been large panel loaded. Let me go grab that for comparison purposes.

I'll be right back...

Eternals #3(Sep76) 52 panels in 17 pages: 3.058

Forever People #4 (Sep71) 72 panels in 22 pages : 3.272

FF #92(Nov69) 80 panels in 20 pages: 4.00

FF #77(Aug68) 88 panels in 20 pages: 4.40

FF#57(Feb67) 89 panels in 20 pages: 4.45

I remember that 90 panels or so per issue was pretty standard fare for a Marvel Comical book the last few years that the books were being drawn 2X.

FF #92 and #77 are both 1&1/2x books (#67 was the last 2x book). It would have taken time for the creative staff to figure out the best "feel and fit" for working at the smaller size.

Totally trivial amongst the above trivia, Forever People #4 had 55 panels at the end of 17 pages, FF #57 had 72.

- jb the (No, I'm NOT going to count the words) ib -

zilch
06-19-2007, 12:08 AM
Going against my grain, but we have to look at everything here...

Westerns?

At Marvel, Larry Lieber, Al Hartley, and someone else whose name escapes me drew a TON of these over a 20 plus year period...

Romance?

Werner Roth? (both at DC and Marvel) Don Heck?

Dan DeCarlo drew a lot of the Millie/Chili/Hedy books...

broaden our scope here, people!

Lone Ranger
06-19-2007, 06:24 AM
Sal's first work at Marvel was inking his brother's work on Silver Surfer.

His first penciled comic was Avengers #69, that was in 1969, and for the first year or so his pace was about 1 full comic and a couple of covers.


Just because I happen to have spotted this a while back while organizing my RK books (and told the GCD Errors list as they had it wrong).

http://www.comics.org/details.lasso?id=22538

It beats Silver Surfer #4 by a couple of months (although I don't know which was actually drawn first).

Lone Ranger
06-19-2007, 06:30 AM
I am quite surprised that Bob Oksner's name doesn't pop up on the DC most prolific list.

Red Oak Kid
06-20-2007, 08:57 AM
I think the gloves are misleading people to think Colletta inked this. After looking at the enlargements, I don't think these are common Colletta fleck marks. I think they are indicating the gloves are furry. The rest of his costume might have a similar look. Those marks appear to be made with a brush and I think Colletta's flecks are made with a pen.

I also don't see much evidence of Colletta on the RK 66 cover either. It looks like it is mainly smooth brushwork which I don't associate with Colletta.