USA- Done For?

[hoffmandu]

http://www.startribune.com/scripts/setpass.php?goto=http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1244702.html

So this is what's happening around the MN area. With food costs rising, gas outta control, mortgage companies as corrupt as they come, huge Corps laying off employees by the boatload, and various other reasons (coupled with a current Gov Admin that doesn't seem to give a flying 'Eff). Does anyone else think we're one step away from severe depression? I mean it is seriously looking like that's going to be the next logical step. Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is going through some shitty times. My stress has just promoted itself from "daily worry" to "Severe Meltdown".

[jessecuster3]

Oh, but remember when you wanted to start a club, that is so much better than joining the army.

[TheLazy]

Can you qoute the article?

:)

[hoffmandu]

Can you qoute the article?

:)


Damn, no not really. It was regarding rising energy costs in Mn and how at least one third of the states biggest Energy Providers' Customers are 2 months behind. An average of $1500 in debt to them. SHut-offs are going wild and Gov assistance my not be able to cover it. And in a nutshell, there's no end in sight, and no real ideas to fix it. i was very scary.

[darkhanamaru]

i was able to get in using bugmenot.com but here is the article. what i think the key point to take away here is how many people are struggling to keep up with their adjustable rate mortages. the bay area is about to go through the same thing as more and more people default on their ARMs. it is the crash of the housing market that is going to throw this economy into correction as that source of credit dissapears with rising interest rates. i need to dig up the most recent figures on foreclosure...

Heating bill delinquencies jump
Utilities, facing record numbers of past-due accounts, have begun disconnecting service for thousands of Minnesota customers.

By Jackie Crosby, Star Tribune

Last update: June 13, 2007 – 9:50 PM

In what may be another troubling sign for the state's economy, record numbers of Minnesotans are delinquent in paying their natural gas bills.
CenterPoint Energy, the state's largest provider of natural gas, reports that about a third of its customers -- about 208,000 businesses and households -- owe money after the heating season.

More than half of the delinquent customers are at least two months behind on their payments, and owe an average of $1,500, according to CenterPoint.

Xcel Energy said Wednesday that it also has noted increased delinquencies, as has Minnesota Energy Resources, which serves 51 counties across the state, including much of southeastern Minnesota.

Thousands have already had their natural gas cut off, which could affect water heaters, stoves and driers, besides, of course, furnaces. More disconnections will follow unless customers find a way to start making payments.

Economists, credit counselors and utility officials can't point to an exact cause, but say that high consumer debt, rising payments on adjustable-rate mortgages, and higher levels of unemployment likely are driving forces.

"I'm not too surprised by this," said Scott Anderson, an analyst with Wells Fargo & Co. "We've seen stark declines in job growth, and income growth has lagged. Combined with higher food and gas prices, something has to give."

CenterPoint has outstanding bills of $100 million, double what the company has seen in recent years. The company has beefed up staff at its phone center to contact customers, and its credit department isn't waiting until fall, as it normally would, to contact past-due customers to talk about payment plans or to refer them to social service agencies.

"We're going to try to negotiate an acceptable payment plan," said Greg Schirmers, manager of credit and collections at CenterPoint. "But we're finding people that have substantial balances, and they aren't able to commit to payments. That feels very different."

The state's energy companies expect a certain level of overdue bills each spring. In the past six or seven years, as natural gas prices have been on the rise, write-offs and past-due payments have increased, but never to this level.

"I spoke with a 20-year veteran of the credit and collections department, and she's never seen anything in her experience that comes close to the delinquency figure we have today," said Rolf Lund, a spokesman with CenterPoint.

The ramifications for utility companies -- and for their paying customers -- if such high levels of delinquencies remain on the books is unclear. CenterPoint customers currently pay an average of $21 a year to cover some $16 million in uncollectible debt, according to the company.

But social service agencies also are concerned that a rash of disconnections -- with fees that range from $22 to $770 to reconnect -- could drain federal grant funds that are intended to help low-income families pay utility bills. But the effect won't be felt until this fall.

Federal money limited

About 10 percent of CenterPoint's past-due customers received federal grants aimed at helping low-income families pay their winter heating bills.

The state received about $77.5 million in federal funds last year for heating aid, and used it to pay a portion of winter heating bills for about 121,000 low-income households. That money has run out, and a second grant that could have brought more relief to cold-weather states such as Minnesota was vetoed recently as part of an Iraq funding bill.

In 2006, the state received an unexpected bump in federal funds, giving low-income customers an extra $75 and staving off disconnections for a month.

This year, customers with overdue bills apparently won't be so lucky.

CenterPoint has disconnected some 9,000 meters at residences and businesses since April 16, when rules that ban cutting off heat during winter were lifted. Xcel said its disconnections have increased by 20 percent since 2006 for its 400,000 natural gas customers in Minnesota, but declined to give specific numbers.

Minnesota Energy Resources has cut off about 2,300 of its 200,000 customers.

CenterPoint, Xcel and consumer credit counselors are urging those who owe money to contact the utilities to avoid costly reconnection fees this fall.

"There are a lot of families who let gas go for the summer and do without cooking gas and hot water," said Fenton Hyacinthe of Community Action Minneapolis, which coordinates the federal grant program. "More than likely, we'll have a lot of people coming in here early September or early October with their utilities still shut off.

"We try to educate people and tell them that if your payment is $200 and all you can pay is $50, CenterPoint and Xcel will take the $50."

[Drew Van T.]

The state received about $77.5 million in federal funds last year for heating aid, and used it to pay a portion of winter heating bills for about 121,000 low-income households. That money has run out, and a second grant that could have brought more relief to cold-weather states such as Minnesota was vetoed recently as part of an Iraq funding bill.

Okay, now that's funny. It's vetoed as part of a public money drain that was created by a misguided attempt to secure energy sources. So it's bizarre AND ironic.

[Shellhead]

One thing that article failed to mention was the change in weather patterns in Minnesota. Our winters have been relatively mild for about a decade now, and the summers have been getting hotter. It isn't even summer yet, and we've already had quite a few days where the high temp was above 90. Not enough rain, either, but that's a different problem.

So on the one hand, these delinquent utility bills from last winter weren't as high as they could have been. On the other hand, the state law that prevents the utilities from cutting power during the winter won't protect these delinquent folks from the summer heat.

Btw, I find it appalling that central air is such a rare luxury in Minnesota. There are $400,000 houses in my area that just use window a/c units, and only the fairly new apartments, condos and houses come equipped with central air. My 850 square foot apartment is nice and warm in cold weather, but is only barely tolerable at this time of year, with just two window a/c units that are each rated for cooling about 150 square feet.

And this doesn't tie into any kind of trend that I'm aware of, but the 4-story office building that I work in currently lacks A/C in over 2/3 of the building right now, due to multiple failures in the rooftop equipment. Our cheapass landlord postponed repairs for three weeks so he could afford to pay for his spoiled daughter's fairytale wedding and reception, and now it will take at least until the end of next week to finish the repairs. High temps have been around 90 degrees, with low nighttime temps around 75. So I have been marinating in sweat for about a month now, except during my twice-daily showers. Summer was once my favorite season, and is now my least favorite.

[Shellhead]

To more directly answer the basic question posed by this thread, America is not “done”, but is definitely headed for some rough times over the coming decades. We still have the advantage of a large mass of land governed by a common set of laws, culture and language, and some decent remaining natural resources.

Working against that, we have a huge number of workers who are vastly overpaid compared to their counterparts in other countries. We waste vast quantities of resources on entertainment and other frivolous activities, while borrowing more and more money and saving roughly nothing. Our education system is unimpressive until the college level, then good but ridiculously expensive at the college level. In time, we will lose our competitive edge as other countries seize opportunities in an increasingly global economy. Our children will see things get worse. Our grandchildren will be arrogant losers, mocked by more successful people around the world. Other countries will still fear our nukes, but the rest of our military will be looked upon with pity and contempt.

[Drew Van T.]

In time, we will lose our competitive edge as other countries seize opportunities in an increasingly global economy. Our children will see things get worse.

But that's assuming globalization itself doesn't veer off course.

As William Pfaff (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/04/opinion/edpfaff.php) notes, last month the Wall Street Journal - tireless cheerleaders for globalization - published a report entitled "Unexpected results: Globalization has widened income disparity."

It is a hint, I believe, that we're nearing a period of serious reining-in of the globalized economic agenda.

In fact it would be easy to reverse many of the negative trends you cite given the right people in charge, targeting the right aspects of globalization (They don't even have to be entirely correct about the causes and the necessary remedies: all that matters is that popular discontentment puts them in charge).

And, provided there is an ideological turn-around, it would be easier to reverse these physical trends in the US than anywhere else, considering how many local strengths still remain.

[moebius]

But that's assuming globalization itself doesn't veer off course.

As William Pfaff (http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/04/opinion/edpfaff.php) notes, last month the Wall Street Journal - tireless cheerleaders for globalization - published a report entitled "Unexpected results: Globalization has widened income disparity."

It is a hint, I believe, that we're nearing a period of serious reining-in of the globalized economic agenda.


Not unexpected if you were intellectually honest with yourself to begin with.

Lenin told us all this 100 years ago.

[cactusmaac]

America will do OK. It has problems, the rest of the world has bigger ones.

[Nate C.]

America will do OK. It has problems, the rest of the world has bigger ones.

ditto. I skimmed the rest, but when I saw that some of the whining was about Adjustable Rate Mortgages I just rolled my eyes and moved on.

There are waaaaaaayyyyyyy too many house poor American's in this Country. And ARM's are stoopid banking for everyone but the bank.

[Drew Van T.]

Lenin told us all this 100 years ago.

Yowzah, it's a bit of a crotch-ripping leap from "reining in globalization" straight to Lenin! :D

The article I cited - and myself - were thinking more along the lines of reinforcing the welfare state, which by itself doesn't actually limit free trade (for one thing) at all.

[Drew Van T.]

America will do OK

Yes, yes, but which ones, and how many?

[moebius]

Yowzah, it's a bit of a crotch-ripping leap from "reining in globalization" straight to Lenin! :D

The article I cited - and myself - were thinking more along the lines of reinforcing the welfare state, which by itself doesn't actually limit free trade at all.

Have you read "Imperialism?" It is quite prescient, and explains why it's in the best interest of wealthy countries to push globalization.

Once you start with all the advantages, it's rather easy to build on those advantages.

[Paul McEnery]

No tax base = no safety net.

Minnesota should remember that the big thing that led to New York going bankrupt was the housing bust leading to owner tax default.

And I bet there's someone in the guvmint there sweating bullets because they do.

[Pól Rua]

http://www.startribune.com/scripts/setpass.php?goto=http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1244702.html

So this is what's happening around the MN area. With food costs rising, gas outta control, mortgage companies as corrupt as they come, huge Corps laying off employees by the boatload, and various other reasons (coupled with a current Gov Admin that doesn't seem to give a flying 'Eff). Does anyone else think we're one step away from severe depression? I mean it is seriously looking like that's going to be the next logical step. Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is going through some shitty times. My stress has just promoted itself from "daily worry" to "Severe Meltdown".

Why do you hate freedom?

[Pól Rua]

Not unexpected if you were intellectually honest with yourself to begin with.

Lenin told us all this 100 years ago.

That sounds like dirty red talk to me!

[TheLazy]

Why do you hate freedom?

That should be Fox News' tagline

:)

[AJTalon]

Ladies and gentlemen, please. The beauty of democracy/republicanism is that it can change to meet the challenges of the times. Any other nation would have destroyed itself completely in a civil war, but ours endured, and more than that became the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world.

We will go through hard times, no doubt about it. We will have incompetent leaders and fools in office from both sides of the aisle, but the Founding Fathers anticipated that. They designed the system to endure.

And take heart in the fact that most politicians are not scum, and most people are good-natured. The nation will persevere. As long as there are humans, there will be the need, the craving for freedom, because it is the natural way of things. Tyranny and oppression are the aberrations, abominations in this world.

IMHO. Don't like, please say so, but politely.

[Ronald Bryan]

Why do you hate freedom?
Because freedom isn't free.

[TheLazy]

Because freedom isn't free.

And Michael Moores response

:)

[Ronald Bryan]

And Michael Moores response

:)
Come on, everyone knows freedom costs $1.05.

[TheLazy]

Come on, everyone knows freedom costs $1.05.

Is that the price of a Big Mac:p

:)

[Adem]

You know you're in trouble when the Canadian dollar is gaining on yours.

[mgs]

I say, don't worry about it. The way the whole world is destroying the Earth, in maybe a couple hundred years or so, all we'll be is some mutant freaks living in some post-apoctolyptic world.

On this note:

One thing that article failed to mention was the change in weather patterns in Minnesota. Our winters have been relatively mild for about a decade now, and the summers have been getting hotter. It isn't even summer yet, and we've already had quite a few days where the high temp was above 90. Not enough rain, either, but that's a different problem.

</p>
Do you still get snow on Christmas? New York hasn't had a snowy holiday for about 10 years now. :( If you want to see how bad things are, check out the weather for a place in Alaska called Arctic Village. The temps there are actually almost normal now. This, when only a couple of years ago, a typical 'summer' there would feel like the range of say, negative 20 to negative 50 degrees. Global warming? You be the judge.

[Paul McEnery]

Not to worry.

The US is just Nick Nolte from a couple of years back. The moment of clarity is on its way. Just as soon as we get pulled over by the po-lice.
















What do you mean, there's no po-lice?

Oh holy crap, we're screwed, aren't we.

[Pól Rua]

Not to worry.

The US is just Nick Nolte from a couple of years back. The moment of clarity is on its way. Just as soon as we get pulled over by the po-lice.

Officer Sugartits, I presume?

[gary bolt]

Btw, I find it appalling that central air is such a rare luxury in Minnesota. There are $400,000 houses in my area that just use window a/c units, and only the fairly new apartments, condos and houses come equipped with central air. My 850 square foot apartment is nice and warm in cold weather, but is only barely tolerable at this time of year, with just two window a/c units that are each rated for cooling about 150 square feet.

Btw, I find it appalling that very few homes or other buildings are built using passive solar heating and cooling principals. North/south orientation, overhangs, window placement, wall construction, vents and other built-in characteristics can make a huge difference in keeping a house comfortable in all seasons and save the owner many dollars in the long run but these principals are seldom worked into new buildings.

[berk]

What do you mean, there's no po-lice?

Oh holy crap, we're screwed, aren't we.It's even worse than that: they think they're the police.

[moebius]

Ladies and gentlemen, please. The beauty of democracy/republicanism is that it can change to meet the challenges of the times. Any other nation would have destroyed itself completely in a civil war, but ours endured, and more than that became the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world.


Yeah...fortunately our Civil War didn't completely destroy us...it only killed half a million people.

Something to remember is that we are the world's longest current continuous republican government, but we're only 231 years old. In comparison, Rome had three separate forms of government. The shortest of which, the Monarchy, lasted 250 years, the Repubic 450 and the Western Empire another 400-450. Byzantium, from the foundation of Constantinople to its fall in the 15th Century, lasted about 1100.

Rome is probably our best comparative for a cross-historical perspective. They are another nation of immigrants who founded an at the time insignificant country, experimented with a monarchy until they found they preferred Republicanism, won a string of more or less continuous (the Goths even sacked Rome in 390 BC...shades of Washington in 1812) military victories for several centuries at a time, and at the height of their power were the most advanced, most powerful economic and military power the Western world at ever seen.

They must have felt pretty invincible, too.

Modernism has leant a certain air of finality to national borders and republicanism has slowly become more popular the last 200 years as a form of government. But continuous republicanism in the United States, or even the United States in its present boundaries, is not a foregone conclusion. In fact, history and probability (crushing natural disasters or resource crises or economic crises, which are much more likely to sink us than military defeat) suggest we will not be here another 231 years.

[Paul McEnery]

It's even worse than that: they think they're the police.

Seen Bad Lieutenant lately?

[Drew Van T.]

Have you read "Imperialism?" It is quite prescient, and explains why it's in the best interest of wealthy countries to push globalization.

Once you start with all the advantages, it's rather easy to build on those advantages.

Haven't read the work itself, but it is extensively referenced in "Empire" by Negri and Hart, and IIRC they use it to support the very same proposition.

[Iangould]

Any other nation would have destroyed itself completely in a civil war, but ours endured, and more than that became the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world.

Except of course for all the other countries that have had civil wars and survived - like England, France and Russia for starts.

[Drew Van T.]

Except of course for all the other countries that have had civil wars and survived - like England, France and Russia for starts.

As well as Spain (in the 30's), Ireland (Michael Collins was killed in it), etc.

The United Netherlands (established in 1815, torn in two by civil war in 1830) did not survive as a whole, but it was a highly artificial construct created by the great powers that could never have lasted.

[cactusmaac]

Except of course for all the other countries that have had civil wars and survived - like England, France and Russia for starts.

The US came out of its' civil war in much better shape than those three.

[moebius]

Haven't read the work itself, but it is extensively referenced in "Empire" by Negri and Hart, and IIRC they use it to support the very same proposition.

Would you consider this points in "Imperialism's" favor as a scholarly work, or points against?

[moebius]

The US came out of its' civil war in much better shape than those three.

I think the main point is that Republicanism is no protection from civil unrest or even civil war.

Historically, the English Civil War hardly came during a Republican period, but I would say the lasting effects were much less severe. Once 1688 rolled around, my sense is all was forgotten. Meanwhile, it's 140 years later and you can still feel the effects of our Civil War on our politics and culture.

[cactusmaac]

There was severe national political turmoil from the English Civil war years till the Glorious Revolution, a period of four decades or so. After the fighting was done in 1865, America pretty much got back to business straight away.

[moebius]

There was severe national political turmoil from the English Civil war years till the Glorious Revolution, a period of four decades or so. After the fighting was done in 1865, America pretty much got back to business straight away.

Except for Reconstruction, Carpetbaggers, Jim Crow, the KKK, the Dixiecrats, the Civil Rights Movement, the Solid South and continued debates over flying the Confederate flag or whether Sherman was a war criminal. We're still living with the fallout of the Civil War, more so than any other war in our history (win or lose).

There was severe political turmoil in England from 1630 to 1688, but do you ever see anyone re-enacting English Civil War battles? Could you predict political, economic and social patterns in England in 1770 based on which side they were on during the Civil War of 1630?

[Iangould]

The US came out of its' civil war in much better shape than those three.

True but according to Talon they simply shouldn't have survived.

[cactusmaac]

I think he meant as a nation. Given a different form of government, it's possible unresolvale political tensions over slavery would have resulted in dissolution of the union.

[moebius]

I think he meant as a nation. Given a different form of government, it's possible unresolvale political tensions over slavery would have resulted in dissolution of the union.

Which of course they did under Republicanism...our Union only survived through the application of overwhelming force.

[Dennis K]

http://www.startribune.com/scripts/setpass.php?goto=http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1244702.html

So this is what's happening around the MN area. With food costs rising, gas outta control, mortgage companies as corrupt as they come, huge Corps laying off employees by the boatload, and various other reasons (coupled with a current Gov Admin that doesn't seem to give a flying 'Eff). Does anyone else think we're one step away from severe depression? I mean it is seriously looking like that's going to be the next logical step. Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is going through some shitty times. My stress has just promoted itself from "daily worry" to "Severe Meltdown".


"Severe depression"? No. It's more accurate to say what we're seeing is the beginning of the decline of an empire.

[cactusmaac]

Apropos of nothing, here's the Gettysburg Address in Powerpoint.

http://norvig.com/Gettysburg/sld001.htm

[hoffmandu]

"Severe depression"? No. It's more accurate to say what we're seeing is the beginning of the decline of an empire.

Decline? yeah your right, but I just hope it's not the final straw(s). We got through it in the 30's. From the history books I've read, it looked pretty damn bad, worse than I've seen in my lifetime at least. Question is whether we can find a leader who can guide us on through. Now that I'm a Father, I can't help but be concerned.

[AJTalon]

"Severe depression"? No. It's more accurate to say what we're seeing is the beginning of the decline of an empire.

You're assuming we're an empire to begin with. Rome's situation and ours are very different despite appearances. Yes, the USA is the superpower, but unlike Rome we have not turned into a dictatorship (no matter what Michael Moore may say... Which is ironic because if President Bush WERE a dictator Moore would have been executed a LONG time ago). We are not seeing widespread rebellion among the states. We are not purposely supplying our enemies with the means to destroy us (in terms of military technology).

We have made bad policies regarding foreign relations, but no worse than others made by us and other nations, and they still continue. Though there is a continuing attempt to subvert the good and decent in our culture, there are people who fight back against it. While the nation is in debt, we are seeing the greatest overall economic growth in US history. While we are involved in a war, it is far less bloody than any we have fought before. In Vietnam we lost over 60,000 troops in a decade. In World War II, we lost the same number of troops we've lost in Iraq over three years on D-Day. Yes, it is sad, and the terrorist attacks continue, and things are rough, but a disaster? Compared to Vietnam? Hardly.

I am a history major, and history enthusiast, and trust me when I say this is not the USA's darkest hour. Not by a long shot. All you modern airheads just lap up the doom sayings and "empire declining" nonsense because it's dramatic and for some reason more acceptable to be cynical about everything. Rather than stepping back, actually LOOKING at the history, the good and the bad, and forming your own opinion. Don't take my word for it, go and read and research from many different sources. I think you'll find things are not as bad as the mainstream media makes them out to be.

On my comments regarding our civil war: England, France, and Russia all changed government styles after their civil wars. Ours has remained a democratic republic ever since the US Constitution was finalized. And we never turned into an oppressive communist regime, or a monarchy, or a dictatorship from our civil war.

[Iangould]

All you modern airheads ....

You know for someone who gets all pissy when other disagree with him, you're awfully past to toss around insults.

[AJTalon]

You know for someone who gets all pissy when other disagree with him, you're awfully past to toss around insults.

Look, I do not get "pissy" when someone disagrees with me. Just because I'm not agreeing with everything the majority says around here doesn't mean I'm being an asshole. I approach all debates like a legal case. One side makes an argument, I present a counter-argument. That's how I operate.

I apologize for the airhead comment. I won't make such a statement again.

[Iangould]

Look, I do not get "pissy" when someone disagrees with me. Just because I'm not agreeing with everything the majority says around here doesn't mean I'm being an asshole. I approach all debates like a legal case. One side makes an argument, I present a counter-argument. That's how I operate.

I apologize for the airhead comment. I won't make such a statement again.

Disagree with people all you like just lay off the "anti American"/"Pro-tyranny" nonsense and all the other insults.

[AJTalon]

Disagree with people all you like just lay off the "anti American"/"Pro-tyranny" nonsense and all the other insults.

I just call it like I see it. I should probably not draw my conclusions so quickly, but it is difficult when my opponents rag on the US constantly and ignore the atrocities committed by our enemies. As though they are excused because they are not American. Once all the facts of any matter are confirmed, for me at least the debate is over.

[hoffmandu]

I am a history major, and history enthusiast, and trust me when I say this is not the USA's darkest hour. Not by a long shot. All you modern airheads just lap up the doom sayings and "empire declining" nonsense because it's dramatic and for some reason more acceptable to be cynical about everything. Rather than stepping back, actually LOOKING at the history, the good and the bad, and forming your own opinion. Don't take my word for it, go and read and research from many different sources. I think you'll find things are not as bad as the mainstream media makes them out to be.

.

What the hell ever, dude. Darkest hour or not, I truely believe what's happening as of late (and what's in store) is garbage and tough to swallow, for me, my family and obviously a large number of other Americans. Coming from a responsible Voter, Home Owner, and Taxpayer I find (almost) the entire situation unacceptable. i don't give a crap on whether or not it's been worse, that does nothing to help, or make my life easier. The fact is, life is getting a lot harder than it has been in awhile. I work 2 gigs and am still having a rough go and there's a shitload of other folk that make a damn sight less wage than me! When I pay dues I expect shit to be smooth and run smooth, and right now, it IS NOT.

[moebius]

On my comments regarding our civil war: England, France, and Russia all changed government styles after their civil wars. Ours has remained a democratic republic ever since the US Constitution was finalized. And we never turned into an oppressive communist regime, or a monarchy, or a dictatorship from our civil war.

Uhhh...well, actually the English went from a Monarchy to a Theocratic Dictatorship, then back to a Monarchy, and Russia went from a Monarchy to a Republic, and then a year later that Republic was destroyed and replaced by a Communist state.

Also, France's Revolution went from a Monarchy, to a Republic, to a Dictatorship.

But who's counting?

[Shellhead]

...I say this is not the USA's darkest hour. Not by a long shot.

I agree that this is definitely not America's darkest hour. That hour was probably during the battle at Antietam, a one-day battle that resulted in 23,000 casualties, all American.

However, I firmly believe that historians will remember the 20th century as the American century, the time when America enjoyed its greatest level of power, prosperity, and influence. The turning point was not the 9/11 attacks, but the idiotic invasion of Iraq. We are now stuck in a quagmire of good intentions and destructive foolishness, and too proud to get out. In the eyes of people all around the world, Americans don't look so tough now, as we struggle ineffectually to control the violence in Iraq and rebuild their devastated infrastructure.

At home, many problems have been neglected. We have the most expensive healthcare in the world, but we also have unusually poor results with it, at least compared to other industrialized nations. Our fat lazy kids aren't getting a good education, so the future doesn't look impressive. We waste vast resources on excessive entertainment, gas-guzzling SUVs, and lots and lots of food. And we "pay" for it all with debt, maxing out charge cards and taking out foolish home equity loans to prop up unsustainable levels of consumption. We now have six-year car loans and 40-year mortgages available, because the 5-year/30-year ones were too limited compared to our appetites. It's sick, stupid, and can only lead to trouble.

As for the economy, the housing market is in the dumps, after several years of irresponsible lending activity. The stock market is wounded. The job market is stagnant. Consumers are still flocking to the malls every weekend, but stores have been running a lot of sales events to keep them coming back. And again, the future doesn't look good, as our increasingly expensive higher education costs leave our fat lazy youngsters at a distinct disadvantage in a labor market that is becoming quite global.

This isn't the end of the road for America. But it is going to take hard work and good planning to get things back on track. And hard work and good planning are hard to find in America today, because most people would rather go see a movie or drink a lot of beer than worry about the future. So I predict a gradual but definite decline in American power in the coming decades.

[Nate C.]

Here's how America solves its oil dependency, the problem of illegal aliens and the Middle East situation.

1. Fact- illegal aliens are the direct cause of gas price spikes in America.
2. Fact- They look just like Middle Easterners.
3. Fact- They can fly.
4. Proposition- Drop them into the Middle East. No more gas spikes, no more illegal aliens. More people in the Middle East to work out the centuries long feud.

[Black Atom]

What the hell ever, dude. Darkest hour or not, I truely believe what's happening as of late (and what's in store) is garbage and tough to swallow, for me, my family and obviously a large number of other Americans. Coming from a responsible Voter, Home Owner, and Taxpayer I find (almost) the entire situation unacceptable. i don't give a crap on whether or not it's been worse, that does nothing to help, or make my life easier. The fact is, life is getting a lot harder than it has been in awhile. I work 2 gigs and am still having a rough go and there's a shitload of other folk that make a damn sight less wage than me! When I pay dues I expect shit to be smooth and run smooth, and right now, it IS NOT.

You have internet service. How bad can things really be?

Seriously, though, I'm not trying to trivialize any of the pain you're feeling. I think we can all feel the rubber band stretching and stretching and are just waiting for it to finally snap. But I don't think this is the end of America--it's just part of the cycle. 10 years of sloth and consumer decadence for every 10 years of progress.

[Drew Van T.]

Would you consider this points in "Imperialism's" favor as a scholarly work, or points against?

A bit of both? :D To be honest, I should really read some more before I am able to contribute to that discussion.

[AJTalon]

You have internet service. How bad can things really be?

Seriously, though, I'm not trying to trivialize any of the pain you're feeling. I think we can all feel the rubber band stretching and stretching and are just waiting for it to finally snap. But I don't think this is the end of America--it's just part of the cycle. 10 years of sloth and consumer decadence for every 10 years of progress.

It is a situation eerily similar to pre-World War II Europe. I just hope the storm that follows the break is not as terrible as that one.

[Tages]

Yeah, the U.S. will no longer be the global hegemon in the decades ahead. This is one of the best things that could possibly happen, for the U.S. and the world in general.

[cactusmaac]

Christ.

Anyone comparing today's situation with 1930s Europe is either woefully ignorant or taking downers with their cereal in the morning.


At home, many problems have been neglected. We have the most expensive healthcare in the world, but we also have unusually poor results with it, at least compared to other industrialized nations.

America's system does OK. Patients typically get access to the latest medical tech, drugs and teatments and face very short waiting lists although the lack of cost discipline results in wasteful treatment.


We waste vast resources on excessive entertainment, gas-guzzling SUVs, and lots and lots of food.

Why is that a waste per se? Surely it's simply a matter of people deciding what to buy with their dollar?


And we "pay" for it all with debt, maxing out charge cards and taking out foolish home equity loans to prop up unsustainable levels of consumption. We now have six-year car loans and 40-year mortgages available, because the 5-year/30-year ones were too limited compared to our appetites. It's sick, stupid, and can only lead to trouble.

A problem, but hardly a grievous one.


As for the economy, the housing market is in the dumps, after several years of irresponsible lending activity. The stock market is wounded. The job market is stagnant. Consumers are still flocking to the malls every weekend, but stores have been running a lot of sales events to keep them coming back. And again, the future doesn't look good, as our increasingly expensive higher education costs leave our fat lazy youngsters at a distinct disadvantage in a labor market that is becoming quite global.

The NYSE Composite's about the highest it's ever been and the unemployment rate's about 4.5% which is about the lowest you can get in a modern industrialised economy.

And America will do what it usually does: import the rest of the world's brainpower to make up for native underachievers.

Keeping China's best and brightest at home (Kent Ewing, 6/15/07, Asia Times)


As Western countries worry over China's rise on the international stage, they hold a key advantage in the competition for power and influence: many of China's best and brightest go abroad for a university education, enjoy their lives in the West, and never return home to share their knowledge and expertise with the motherland.

A recent study by the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences (CASS), the nation's top think-tank, shows that China is losing more first-rate minds to the West than any other country in the world. The phenomenon amounts to a new form of colonialism in which Western countries exploit intellectual talent rather than raw materials.

Plus you are ignoring the US having the world's most dynamic economy, a generally young and highly educated workforce, the world's best universities, the deepest and most efficient capital markets, a non-corrupt political system, decent standards of contract enforcement and an openness and integrative capacity when it comes to skilled immigrants that puts the rest of the world to shame.

[Drew Van T.]

Patients typically get access to the latest medical tech, drugs and teatments and face very short waiting lists although the lack of cost discipline results in wasteful treatment.

If they have insurance, you mean, and if the insurance company doesn't find a way to avoid payment, which they seem to excel at.

As Western countries worry over China's rise on the international stage, they hold a key advantage in the competition for power and influence: many of China's best and brightest go abroad for a university education, enjoy their lives in the West, and never return home to share their knowledge and expertise with the motherland.

I can point you at other articles that claim the bigger trend is that once graduated they do go back home. Not specifically about China, though.

[Drew Van T.]

Still on the subject of American healthcare: I'm simultaneously horrified and amused to no end by some of the "solutions" and "advice" proposed to the uninsured by some. Take this article by something called "Marketwatch" (http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/0615biz-healthcosts15-ON.html):

MarketWatch
NEW YORK - More than 44 million people living in the U.S. are uninsured, according to the Census Bureau's latest estimates.

To avoid snowballing debt, people without health coverage often choose to forgo doctors' visits altogether. But this may end up costing them more down the road, warns health care consultant Michelle Katz, author of the book "Healthcare for Less."

Preventive care is essential to diagnosing and treating illnesses before they require costly medical interventions. Whether you are uninsured or simply trying to economize, Katz suggests these three tips to cut your medical expenses:

Pay cash to reduce costs. People often don't realize that medical costs are negotiable - particularly if you're willing to pay cash. A cash transaction can save you up to 50 percent, says Katz. This is an excellent option for those with no health coverage, but it's also worth paying cash if you do have insurance. Many physicians will cut you a deal anyway because it saves them the headache of wrangling with the insurance company.

Civilized solution #1: haggle with your doctor as if he's a chicken salesman on the corner of a Gaza City street.

Bargain hunt. Not all medical charges are created equal. The cost of procedures can fluctuate wildly from hospital to hospital. "It's like shopping for a car," says Katz. Before you go in for elective surgery, she suggests calling the billing departments of several local hospitals to get price quotes. Find out exactly what services are included in the cost to avoid hidden charges.

Civilized solution #2: when your health is on the line, obviously you want to spend all your time running around like a bargain hunter going from Wal-mart to K-mart to Even-Crappier-For-Even-Less-mart.

Don't pay full price for your Rx. Before your doctor writes you a prescription, inquire if there are samples to be had. If they aren't available, ask your care provider to write a 90-day prescription rather than a 30-day. This will save you from having to schedule another appointment for a refill. Shopping at the pharmacies of wholesalers, such as Costco or Sam's Club, can also deliver significant savings. But regardless of where you fill your Rx, ask for the generic brand.

Civilized solution #3: Beg your doctor for freebies. Why not throw in a blowjob? Maybe even promise your daughter?

[cactusmaac]

Still on the subject of American healthcare: I'm simultaneously horrified and amused to no end by some of the "solutions" and "advice" proposed to the uninsured by some. Take this article by something called "Marketwatch" (http://www.azcentral.com/business/consumer/articles/0615biz-healthcosts15-ON.html):


Civilized solution #1: haggle with your doctor as if he's a chicken salesman on the corner of a Gaza City street.



Civilized solution #2: when your health is on the line, obviously you want to spend all your time running around like a bargain hunter going from Wal-mart to K-mart to Even-Crappier-For-Even-Less-mart.



Civilized solution #3: Beg your doctor for freebies. Why not throw in a blowjob? Maybe even promise your daughter?

Yeah. Like Loren suggested in his thread detailing his kidney stone tests, treat healthcare like any other economic good and it's surprising how much you could save.

[Citizen V]

A depression in America?With Bush in charge,anything can happen.If things do continue to get worse,i can imagine people being forced to work for free to balance out debt.If they refuse,their property can be taken as payment.

[Fenris]

Hello, Drew!

For all your trademark sneering, you (as usual) give me much to think about. So, begging your pardon for some tangents...


Civilized solution #1: haggle with your doctor as if he's a chicken salesman on the corner of a Gaza City street.

When I went to South America last year, haggling took some getting used to. It felt wrong; it felt like I was breaking some kind of social code. Which, in American terms, I was.

After a few days, I came to see it differently. Shopping took more time, but it also made me think more about the purchases I was making. Haggling is different than the developed world's method of selling, but it works.

More: it's better. This is how free, equal people do business with each other.

Why do we refrain from haggling in the developed world? Because we're more civilized? Nonsense: we don't haggle because we cannot. Almost all prices are set at the determination of large corporations' calculations of the market, against which an individual has no bargaining leverage. In the developed world, you take the price they give you, and you learn to like it.


Suppose that I go to a doctor, and he gives me a test, and charges me some outrageous amount. If I think it's too high, why shouldn't I tell him so? Why shouldn't I argue with him about it? He's a businessman, not a priest: I don't need to give him my abject, unquestioning submission.

That Gaza chicken seller could teach us a thing or two.


Civilized solution #2: when your health is on the line, obviously you want to spend all your time running around like a bargain hunter going from Wal-mart to K-mart to Even-Crappier-For-Even-Less-mart.

Well, I don't know about all your time. But if you're sick, you most certainly should invest some time in looking at different doctors, different hospitals, and different treatments.

To put it in your metaphor, life-or-death medicine isn't like a convenience store. The priority shouldn't be on how easy it is to go to one place, get everything you need, and not bother to look any further. If your life is on the line, it's worth taking a little more trouble. (Or a lot more trouble!)


Civilized solution #3: Beg your doctor for freebies. Why not throw in a blowjob? Maybe even promise your daughter?

Oh, whatever.


õ
How much could that save you, I wonder?

[Alex]

The answer is yes, move to China now!

[Slappy san]

Ladies and gentlemen, please. The beauty of democracy/republicanism is that it can change to meet the challenges of the times. Any other nation would have destroyed itself completely in a civil war, but ours endured, and more than that became the richest, most powerful country in the history of the world.

We will go through hard times, no doubt about it. We will have incompetent leaders and fools in office from both sides of the aisle, but the Founding Fathers anticipated that. They designed the system to endure.

And take heart in the fact that most politicians are not scum, and most people are good-natured. The nation will persevere. As long as there are humans, there will be the need, the craving for freedom, because it is the natural way of things. Tyranny and oppression are the aberrations, abominations in this world.

IMHO. Don't like, please say so, but politely.

Say what? You honestly believe that? Wow!

[Drew Van T.]

After a few days, I came to see it differently. Shopping took more time, but it also made me think more about the purchases I was making. Haggling is different than the developed world's method of selling, but it works.

More: it's better. This is how free, equal people do business with each other.

I think it's more that in the developing word, people haggle because
1) that's the oldest method known to man. It's what we did in the Middle Ages, too.
2) there are no safety nets there, it's every man for himself. Both the customer and the seller have to go for that little bit extra with every sale because for each, survival itself may depend on it. Sure, they're both cheerful about the whole thing, but the underlying reality is there.

Almost all prices are set at the determination of large corporations' calculations of the market, against which an individual has no bargaining leverage. In the developed world, you take the price they give you, and you learn to like it.

I disagree: for things like healthcare and medicine, we have numerous organizations - including the government - working to try to get that price down, both in visible and invisible ways. The motivator behind this is a sense of responsibility and respect for human dignity. These same sentiments exist in the developing world, of course: the only difference is that there they have not successfully built the infrastructure yet...actually it's a double lack: they don't have their own pharmaceutical industry, AND they don't have a network of organizations - such as a responsible government - pressuring this industry to act humanely.

Suppose that I go to a doctor, and he gives me a test, and charges me some outrageous amount. If I think it's too high, why shouldn't I tell him so?

If the government were setting pricing standards, how would that even be possible? It would be illegal to charge "outrageous amounts" as defined by the government and if he did, the doctor would be fined (and anyway, if there are no standards being set by a higher authority, how does anyone determine what constitutes "outrageous"? If it's down to mere personal opinion, some people will say that any price is outrageous while others will gladly pay any price. Your scenario has an inherent contradiction.)

Well, I don't know about all your time. But if you're sick, you most certainly should invest some time in looking at different doctors, different hospitals, and different treatments.

To put it in your metaphor, life-or-death medicine isn't like a convenience store. The priority shouldn't be on how easy it is to go to one place, get everything you need, and not bother to look any further. If your life is on the line, it's worth taking a little more trouble. (Or a lot more trouble!)

That's true, obviously. The point is that the money priority still has a way of elbowing every other priority out of the window.

How much could that save you, I wonder?

I wonder more about how many people in the American system have already been killed, or permanently physically impaired, or had their lifespan shortened several years, for no other reason than because
1) they didn't have insurance, or
2) they had insurance but the company found a loop hole
3) they had some financial means but not the time to "shop around" for the best doctor/cure/hospital
4) they weren't intelligent or wily enough to "shop around". It's clearly a maze, not everyone has the ability to get to the other side. Should one be physically or murderously punished, then, for being a "bad shopper" or an untalented capitalist?
5) they were stuck in a thinly populated area where the private options are so limited and uncompetitive that "shopping around" is not even possible.

Like Loren suggested in his thread detailing his kidney stone tests, treat healthcare like any other economic good and it's surprising how much you could save.

And if Loren had been too stupid, too slow, or too jacked up with tranquilizers to find that magic deal in time, who knows what might have happened down the line? Oh yes, hell of a deal.

[ILLUS]

http://www.startribune.com/scripts/setpass.php?goto=http://www.startribune.com/462/story/1244702.html

So this is what's happening around the MN area. With food costs rising, gas outta control, mortgage companies as corrupt as they come, huge Corps laying off employees by the boatload, and various other reasons (coupled with a current Gov Admin that doesn't seem to give a flying 'Eff). Does anyone else think we're one step away from severe depression? I mean it is seriously looking like that's going to be the next logical step. Anyway, just wondering if anyone else is going through some shitty times. My stress has just promoted itself from "daily worry" to "Severe Meltdown".

All great empired collapse eventually...it's just a matter of time. Especially if we just sit around talking about it and don't act.

[Tages]

Except of course for all the other countries that have had civil wars and survived - like England, France and Russia for starts.

Spain's had what, ten?

[moebius]

Spain's had what, ten?

Greece, Ireland...