Why do textbooks cost so much?

[Alex]

Yeah, the thread title is pretty much it.
I put down 425 bucks on 3 bucks for summer courses, which only run 2 months, and i can't figure out why i'm paying that much.
Another thing, is the different editions they do. I took enivormental science a while ago, lauren is taking the same course now, theres a new edition of the book required for the class, so she went to buy it.
I compared it with my old book, and it's almost identical, they just switched the chapters around.

[Adam West]

Because it contains invaluable knowledge?

[Alex]

Because it contains invaluable knowledge?

So does Rocky Horror Picture show, but it didn't cost me 150 bones to learn not to trust transexual alien vampies.

[Adam West]

knowledge from books can made you lots of money.

I doubt the knowledge to not trust transexual alien vampires will do that.

[Pól Rua]

Yeah, the thread title is pretty much it.
I put down 425 bucks on 3 bucks for summer courses, which only run 2 months, and i can't figure out why i'm paying that much.
Another thing, is the different editions they do. I took enivormental science a while ago, lauren is taking the same course now, theres a new edition of the book required for the class, so she went to buy it.
I compared it with my old book, and it's almost identical, they just switched the chapters around.

The short answer:
It's a fuckin' scam.

[Drew Van T.]

All my textbooks are published and/or sold by a student co-op licensed by the university: you pay 50 bucks once, thereby making you a co-owner of the co-op, and for the rest of your life you get a substantial discount of 30%.

[Gladiaria_Alata]

All my textbooks are published and/or sold by a student co-op licensed by the university: you pay 50 bucks once, thereby making you a co-owner of the co-op, and for the rest of your life you get a substantial discount of 30%.

Lucky! :p ;)

[Drew Van T.]

I don't mean to brag, so much as defend the concept of a student co-op.

Alex, as a point of interest, how much are you paying for the tuition itself?

[Winslow]

The short answer:
It's a fuckin' scam.

Yup.

Alex, you missed the discussion in RITAs where I asked the same question.

Basically by making multiple editions, students are forced to buy new rather than used, and they jack up the price to get more profits.

The textbook for the first course I took was a 13th edition. It was first published ten years ago. heh.

[Alan Lynch]

The worst of it is when the tutors make you go out and buy their (expensive) books. I don't know quite how academic publishing works, but it's a fair bet those bastards made some money out of that.

[Gingold]

It's not that simple. Textbooks have limited runs, are printed as fancy hardcovers with bright colorfull illustrations, and need to be constantly updated. They go overboard on the printing of new editions, but there is a legitimate interest in keeping the information up to date. In addition, the used textbook market ends up undercutting the sales of new textbooks, so the publishers put out new editions in order to compete. There's certainly some artificial price inflation, but nobody's getting rich off of this.

[Shellhead]

[cranky old man voice]When I was in college, you could usually get used text books for at least two out three classes. I was able to buy all of my text books for a full semester of classes for maybe $150 on average. Although it was standard to sell those used text books back to the student bookstore at the end of the semester, they paid a lot less and sometimes wouldn't buy a book at all because the new edition was already out. I kept several of my business school textbooks, especially the accounting books. Twenty years into my career, and I still look obscure things up once in a while, including just two days ago.[/cranky old man voice]

[Matthew E]

It's not that simple. Textbooks have limited runs, are printed as fancy hardcovers with bright colorfull illustrations, and need to be constantly updated. They go overboard on the printing of new editions, but there is a legitimate interest in keeping the information up to date. In addition, the used textbook market ends up undercutting the sales of new textbooks, so the publishers put out new editions in order to compete. There's certainly some artificial price inflation, but nobody's getting rich off of this.

Oh, sometimes it is that simple. I remember one class I had where the textbook was:

- softbound
- no illustrations
- written by the professor of the course
- $75

Rip. Off.

[JeffreyWKramer]

It's not that simple. Textbooks have limited runs, are printed as fancy hardcovers with bright colorfull illustrations, and need to be constantly updated. They go overboard on the printing of new editions, but there is a legitimate interest in keeping the information up to date. In addition, the used textbook market ends up undercutting the sales of new textbooks, so the publishers put out new editions in order to compete. There's certainly some artificial price inflation, but nobody's getting rich off of this.

I used to work in the field. Companies are very much getting rich off textbooks, which is why there's such a lucrative business going with many active publishers.

As to all the need for update, like I've mentioned before when this discussion has come up, that's true in some fields - genetics, for example - but it doesn't explain why they keep recycling social psychology, trigonometry and western civilization textbooks that essentially contain the same information from edition to edition. Most of the time, the only changes are in insignificant things like covers, illustations and trivia sidebars.

Textbooks = Huge. Fucking. Scam.

[Spackling Compound]

I haven't needed to buy a textbook in close to 20 years but I'm curious...

Does the internet offer better deals on textbooks? I'd imagine with the online sellers there would be more competition and better pricing (outside of the tried-n-true book written by the perfesser hisself).

[Winslow]

I haven't needed to buy a textbook in close to 20 years but I'm curious...

Does the internet offer better deals on textbooks? I'd imagine with the online sellers there would be more competition and better pricing (outside of the tried-n-true book written by the perfesser hisself).

Yes, it helps.

But it doesn't help if the teacher requires you to purchase the most recent (i.e. new) edition.

Amazon has a used textbook site that I've used with pretty satisfying results.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Yes, it helps.

But it doesn't help if the teacher requires you to purchase the most recent (i.e. new) edition.

Amazon has a used textbook site that I've used with pretty satisfying results.

Yeah, if you need the edition-of-the-week, you can't save much by going online. If you just want a reference book, though, you can get great deals on the edition-of-last-week.

[BlairH]

I have the same problem Alex. Scotland is a very small legal jurisdiction, so the demand for textbooks on Scottish law is quite small. Obviously this means that the textbooks tend to have a very high price point.

[Gingold]

I used to work in the field. Companies are very much getting rich off textbooks, which is why there's such a lucrative business going with many active publishers.

As to all the need for update, like I've mentioned before when this discussion has come up, that's true in some fields - genetics, for example - but it doesn't explain why they keep recycling social psychology, trigonometry and western civilization textbooks that essentially contain the same information from edition to edition. Most of the time, the only changes are in insignificant things like covers, illustations and trivia sidebars.

Textbooks = Huge. Fucking. Scam.

I'll certainly bow to your inside knowledge, Jeffery. Maybe I've just been listening to apologists for the publishing companies.

I have read that another factor that drives up the costs of textbooks are the thousands of demonstration copies the publishers send off to professors to entice them to use the book, though I don't know how great an effect that would really have on the price point.

[Puma]

and then you try to sell back the $75 soft cover that you bought new in September and was very careful not to mark up in December and are quoted $5.00 because the university isn't going to be offering that course for another two years.

[Winslow]

I'll certainly bow to your inside knowledge, Jeffery. Maybe I've just been listening to apologists for the publishing companies.

I have read that another factor that drives up the costs of textbooks are the thousands of demonstration copies the publishers send off to professors to entice them to use the book, though I don't know how great an effect that would really have on the price point.

I've noticed teachers (my course supervisors) tend to be concerned if a classroom textbook is over 5 years old.

I honestly don't get that. When did Algebra suddenly get updated? Or Bohr's model of the atom?

[Puma]

I've noticed teachers (my course supervisors) tend to be concerned if a classroom textbook is over 5 years old.

I honestly don't get that. When did Algebra suddenly get updated? Or Bohr's model of the atom?

and how often is Plato's Republic going to change?

[Gingold]

I've noticed teachers (my course supervisors) tend to be concerned if a classroom textbook is over 5 years old.

I honestly don't get that. When did Algebra suddenly get updated? Or Bohr's model of the atom?

Primary and secondary school kids seem to respond better to newer books. My students hate feeling like they've got some other kids' hand-me-downs (which most of my books are- thank you Philadelphia Book Bank).

[founder81]

What one of my teachers explained to me (thank god he didn't require the text book), is that publishing company's make most of their money off of text books not the books in a regular book store. Text books people are required to buy, the latest hardcover/softcover are not.

and then you try to sell back the $75 soft cover that you bought new in September and was very careful not to mark up in December and are quoted $5.00 because the university isn't going to be offering that course for another two years.

Oh, I can go one better, a $85 hardcover for a class the school was offering the next semester. $4 buy back.

[JeffreyWKramer]

I'll certainly bow to your inside knowledge, Jeffery. Maybe I've just been listening to apologists for the publishing companies.
Probably. They are good at that.

Really, it's a big scam perpetrated by the publishing companies and the college bookstores. Essentially, by changing editions all the time, they attempt to keep the used-book market from cutting too far into the profits.

Really, that's what it comes down to. I mean, let's face facts. How much has trig or western civ changed in the last 30 years? Now compare to how many editions have been published of how many different trig and western civ texts in that timespan.

I have read that another factor that drives up the costs of textbooks are the thousands of demonstration copies the publishers send off to professors to entice them to use the book, though I don't know how great an effect that would really have on the price point.

I'm sure that costs them a bit, but so does any sort of advertising/marketing. It's really not a very good strategy, though. Most of those piles of free books get used as doorstops and such.

[Spackling Compound]

Probably. They are good at that.

Really, it's a big scam perpetrated by the publishing companies and the college bookstores.


But where would the "Buy Your Books" porn sites be without these exhorbitant charges?

One ponders.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Primary and secondary school kids seem to respond better to newer books. My students hate feeling like they've got some other kids' hand-me-downs (which most of my books are- thank you Philadelphia Book Bank).

I think it would be good for schools to not reinforce that sort of spoiled mindset. Truly outdated texts - such as, say, a geography text referring to entities such as the USSR as if current = bad thing. 10 year old basic algebra text = what's the problem?

[Antrustion]

We had text rental in college, and it was a great system. You paid a fee ($50-100 per semester), included in the tuition and fees bill, for and then just checked out your books for the semester. If you didn't return them at the end of the semester, then you had to pay for them. The professors were only allowed to replace books for a course once every three years, were forced to stay within a price range, and could only require a small amount of additional books to be bought (usually just to update the materials, and I think the most I ever had to pay was $140 between 5 classes). Pretty much everybody was happy with the system except for a few professors who were mad that they couldn't get some easy money by forcing students to buy their book. The great thing was that when they'd replace books, they'd dump the old ones on a table, and let you buy whatever you could carry for $10. So, I have a reference library filled with thousands of dollars of textbooks that cost me about $50 total.

Now I go to law school, when one book can be $120, which is sort of ridiculous. I had a professor who cut down cases himself to make his own text, but rather than trying to have it published, he sent it to the university print shop. It cost us $20. You can't tell me that there's a decent justification for that $100 difference.

[SOGG]

<snipped for space>10 year old basic algebra text = what's the problem?

I could sort of see this if the textbook was revolutionising the way something is taught. For example: Leithold's the calculus with analytic geometry vs.... well almost anything that came after that. But this may be an apples to oranges scenario since they're different books. Just saying that the way material is presented is just as important as the concept itself.

Learn differential equations starting with applications and THEN learning limit theory? Man, I wish I'd learned it that way.

Further, I propose that this is one of those scams that people gladly ignore. Like when you set a bird free at a Buddhist stupa and it flies back into the cage in the afternoon.
Maybe we agree that teachers are underpaid and as such, allow them these little scams.

[dockwats]

Despite the great information the books contain, somewhere someone is happily rolling to the bank of the sale of textbooks. I had a nice average of $6-800 going per semester, and that's with being able to get some used.

[rick]

I run a college bookstore and I can tell you right now, that textbooks are both expensive and fairly priced at the same time.

Considering that the average textbook is large, made from heavy paper, is extensively illustrated and often deals with highly specialized technical information that takes research and experimentation to develop, the average cost of $150.00 is pretty fair.

Do the publishers and the schools make good money off of textbooks?

Well of course they do, but keep in mind that the publishers sell the books for about 40% above the cost of production, and the bookstores throw about 30% on top of that, so nobody is reaping huge profits off of these books.

[rick]

As for the whole changing editions annually thing, it is not the business of either the publishers or the bookstores to support the used book market, it is the job of the publishers and the bookstores to sell books.

[Shades0077]

After my first year of being gouged at the campus bookstore, I bought all my textbooks online. Half.com is good, as well as Amazon. I usually saved between 30 and 50% on what I would have paid at the bookstore. The only problem is waiting on shipping. To fix that, email your professors before the term starts to find out what text you will be using.

Regarding different editions, most professors are ok with you using the older editions if you ask them. Oftentimes the only significant change is homework assignments out of the book, which hopefully you can copy from a classmate.

[Pól Rua]

As for the whole changing editions annually thing, it is not the business of either the publishers or the bookstores to support the used book market, it is the job of the publishers and the bookstores to sell books.

The problem with the changing editions annually thing isn't so much with the publishers or bookstores as much as with the educational faculties who insist that you have to have the 24th edition ($150) for your course and that the 23rd edition ($50) is worthless, despite having almost exactly the same content.
That's where the 'scam' part comes in.

[Donald M.]

What about history textbooks that put out new editions every year.

Last time I checked, history was, you know, fuckin' history.

I swear . . .

[rick]

But The problem with the changing editions annually thing isn't so much with the publishers or bookstores as much as with the educational faculties who insist that you have to have the 24th edition ($150) for your course and that the 23rd edition ($50) is worthless, despite having almost exactly the same content.
That's where the 'scam' part comes in.


What universities are mostly concerned about is making sure that the students taking a course are all consistently getting the same information and the same materials.

On top of that most textbooks are picked out by course directors whose job it is to make sure that the different professors teaching a course are teaching the same material.

And if you are trying to be consistent, then you are going to need to have the students using the same materials, including the same textbook.

It really is as simple as that.

[rick]

What about history textbooks that put out new editions every year.

Last time I checked, history was, you know, fuckin' history.

I swear . . .


Actually the university I work for has used the same history text for the last three years.

We are going to a new one next fall though since we figure at this point we really need a book that has both 911 and the war in it.

[Donald M.]

Actually the university I work for has used the same history text for the last three years.

We are going to a new one next fall though since we figure at this point we really need a book that has both 911 and the war in it.

I'm not talking about recent history . . .

[rick]

I'm not talking about recent history . . .


Yeah so?

Like I said we haven't changed history texts in three years.

[howyadoin]

And if you are trying to be consistent, then you are going to need to have the students using the same materials, including the same textbook.

It really is as simple as that.Wouldn't the easiest way to keep it consistent be to not change the book every year?

[gary bolt]

Yeah, the thread title is pretty much it.


Captive audience and limited market maybe?

[rick]

Wouldn't the easiest way to keep it consistent be to not change the book every year?


Sure, but like I said, we are there to make a buck.

It's not a scam, it's a living.

[Sanagi]

I've seen new editions that added errors that weren't in the previous version. So yeah, I think it's a scam.

[founder81]

I've seen new editions that added errors that weren't in the previous version. So yeah, I think it's a scam.

I gotta hear more about this. More please.

[rick]

I've seen new editions that added errors that weren't in the previous version. So yeah, I think it's a scam.


Yes of course.

All of the textbook publishers get together and make sure that their books are inaccurate and filled with mistakes so that students will be forced to replace them with new editions. :rolleyes:

Look gang, education is expensive.

Educational material is expensive.

Textbooks are expensive.

It isn't a scam or a conspiracy, it's just the reality of the cost of the situation.

[Typo Lad]

What about history textbooks that put out new editions every year.

Last time I checked, history was, you know, fuckin' history.

I swear . . .
To be fair, I had a later edition of the same text as my dad for Greco-Roman history.

In his version, Troy was still undiscovered.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Look gang, education is expensive.

Educational material is expensive.

Textbooks are expensive.

It isn't a scam or a conspiracy, it's just the reality of the cost of the situation.

Materials cost is a big factor in why education is so expensive. Textbook costs are inflated compared to many other areas of publishing. New editions are put out not because they're really needed, but because the companies want to keep making money. Since college bookstores also want to make money, they work with the text manufacturers to promote the new texts. Everyone wins out - except the students, that don't get any real choice in the manner.

Sure, it's a business. It's all legal. But it's also predatory. Them's facts.

[K'Nort]

The cost to produce a textbook the first time is very very high. The revisions, however, are gravy. Especially when, like Alex said, all they do is rearrange the chapters. No new content at all. In part, it's to make up the original loss on the first edition. Like with prescription drugs. But they also charge significantly less overseas for the exact same book. That prompted congressional hearings a couple years ago but I don't know how that turned out.

Anyway, students can usually buy a cheaper, older edition and get away with it. The amount that has changed won't be enough to impact what they actually learn. Especially when you think about how many courses only use one or two chapters out of each book. Get it from the library. Photocopy it from a friend's. No one is actually forcing you to buy the thing. Even the professor. I don't care if it's on the syllabus. It's so rare you truly have to bring the book to class and follow along. They'll never know what you actually bought.

[Dreadstar]

I have two different edition textbooks from the 70's for Chemistry 121 - 123.

There is *zero* difference in the body of text. The only changes were cosmetic exterior and a portion of the exercises at the end of each chapter. Maybe 20 - 33%.

The rationale I heard was that they have to change the homework problems so that the students actually do the work rather than get the answers legacied by the previous class.


...

Yep.

[K'Nort]

Here we go. Congress is still working on it.

http://www.ed.gov/about/bdscomm/list/acsfa/edlite-txtbkstudy.html

Prices have increased 186% since 1986.

For example, in mid-July 2006, Barnes and Noble’s (U.S.) website
offered to sell a new copy of Krugman and Wells’ Economics textbook for
$126.75, whereas Blackwell’s in Great Britain advertised the same book
on its web site at $76.31. Needless to say, it does not cost $50.44 to send
the book from Oxford to the United States.

[rick]

Sure, it's a business. It's all legal. But it's also predatory. Them's facts.


So basically what you are saying is that, because it’s hard to find an inexpensive used copy of a current textbook, then textbook publishers and school bookstores are working in collusion to rip off students?

First off, there isn’t a textbook carried by a college in the country that isn’t available on both Amazon and Half.com, so nobody is keeping the student from purchasing textbooks elsewhere at a possibly lower rate.

Secondly, even if editions were kept identical the emphasis of the bookstores and publishers would still be on selling new editions.

And third, the vast majority of bookstores sell used copies of textbooks as well as allow students to sell books to each other.

And finally, most textbooks are used for about 24 months before they are updated, so it’s not like books change on a massive level every few months.

Look I can sympathize about the expense of textbooks.

I’m not saying they’re cheap.

What I object too is this automatic assumption that because something is expensive or irritating that it is some kind of rip off or scam.

Most people I deal with in the educational world, really are mostly focused on the students getting the best education they can get. I know it sounds hokey, but so far, it honestly has been my experience in the field.

Sure, we would like students to buy their textbooks from us instead of Amazon or whatever, however I have a big sign in my store and so do quite a few others, listing alternative sources for textbooks, because the goal is to get the student in class, not to push product.


When you consider that most texts are available from multiple sources, both new and used and that the average text is in use for at least two years, it just isn’t really fair to call us predatory.

[founder81]

Materials cost is a big factor in why education is so expensive. Textbook costs are inflated compared to many other areas of publishing. New editions are put out not because they're really needed, but because the companies want to keep making money. Since college bookstores also want to make money, they work with the text manufacturers to promote the new texts. Everyone wins out - except the students, that don't get any real choice in the manner.

Sure, it's a business. It's all legal. But it's also predatory. Them's facts.

This can be re-worded to fit Marvel and DC

re-worded:

Comic costs are inflated compared to many other areas of publishing. New comics are put out not because they're really needed, but because the companies want to keep making money. Since comic stores also want to make money, they work with the comic manufacturers to promote the new comic. Everyone wins out - except the fans, that don't get any real choice in the manner.

Sure, it's a business. It's all legal. But it's also predatory. Them's facts.

[K'Nort]

This can be re-worded to fit Marvel and DC.

Marvel and DC are really bad about recycling plots, yes, but they don't literally put a new cover on last year's issues and expect you to still buy it.

[SOGG]

<snipped for space, emphasis mine>
Well of course they do, but keep in mind that the publishers sell the books for about 40% above the cost of production, and the bookstores throw about 30% on top of that, so nobody is reaping huge profits off of these books.

I dunno rick, 40 and 30% seem like pretty good profit margins.

[SOGG]

Marvel and DC are really bad about recycling plots, yes, but they don't literally put a new cover on last year's issues and expect you to still buy it.

And nothing really happens to you if you don't buy the stuff they put out. Except maybe you keep a little more money.

[rick]

I dunno rick, 40 and 30% seem like pretty good profit margins.

Not when you throw in payroll, shipping, storage and space it isn't.

For example, the average comic store gets their books at around a 50% discount and the mark-up on back issues can easily go into hundreds of times what was paid for product originally. At the same time a college bookstore will mark new books up 40% and used up 25%.

Granted the textbooks are more expensive, but the markup is hardly outrageous.

[SOGG]

Not when you throw in payroll, shipping, storage and space it isn't.<snipped for space>

But you mentioned that publishing companies sell for 40% above production cost... Or are you just counting materials as the production cost?

[mattx110]

Marvel and DC are really bad about recycling plots, yes, but they don't literally put a new cover on last year's issues and expect you to still buy it.

i was looking for other areas of life where i could practice "trade-waiting" to save up money.
i think i'll start doing it with textbooks! when are they gonna put together all 3 intro to european history periods in a paperback?

[Chris Nowlin]

Sorry rick and Gingold- but from my experience, Jeffrey's 100% right.

The most notable example for me is Calculus books by Stewart. New editions come out constantly, every couple years. They change little to nothing. They literally just rearrange sections sometimes.

My department at my old college just gave graders the solution manuals for the old edition because the differences were negligible. You just had to note the section numbers were different.

It's clear why they do this. If they were still using the 2001 edition, most people would be buying used books rather than buying from them.

That's where what they're doing is simple business sense. They put out a new edition, moved around enough that it's very inconvenient to use an older one for an already confused student, then no longer sell the last edition. So the school has to use the new one, because they'll need some new copies, and all the used ones floating around are now made worthless.

It's business, but it's unethical business. Artificially creating a demand. that shouldn't exist. My current school has looked into different books, but all that are worth getting do the same.

So we're looking into using the internet to end dependence on textbooks. Which is the point we'll hopefully be at in a couple years.

EDIT: To be clear, I'll avoid speaking in generalities. This is what Stewart does with Calculus textbooks and most other prominent textbook companies do.

[Chris Nowlin]

Stupid Monica

[JeffreyWKramer]

This can be re-worded to fit Marvel and DC

re-worded:

Comic costs are inflated compared to many other areas of publishing. New comics are put out not because they're really needed, but because the companies want to keep making money. Since comic stores also want to make money, they work with the comic manufacturers to promote the new comic. Everyone wins out - except the fans, that don't get any real choice in the manner.

Sure, it's a business. It's all legal. But it's also predatory. Them's facts.

The big difference is that comics are completely a discretionary spending matter, whereas education is not.

So, the comparison is pretty damn stupid.

[Serik]

I always ended up paying more for textbooks than enrollment/tuition fees back in community college. That irked me to no end.

I have no problem paying $150 for a good physics, calculus, or in-depth biology manual. The information will likely last for years and carry you through several courses.

But I do have a problem with $80-150 lower-division course books, like the ones for Sociology 101. Every single one I've read is complete and total shit: pages and pages of useless fluff, uninteresting anecdotes the hack author struggles to make relevant to the chapter, and lists of buzzwords disguised as vocabulary. Excuse me, I paid $150 for this?

I've had professors who circumvented the entire system by asking students to buy $30 course packets instead of textbooks. Not only did I save a shit load of cash, but the packet material was generally more interesting and relevant to lecture topics.

Oh, and to answer your question: textbooks cost the way they do because the market tolerates it. I just refuse to ever buy from the student bookstore because you overpay even more.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Also, keep in mind where my critiques are coming from. I used to work in a college bookstore, and went from stocking shelves and working at the register to ordering, inventory, etc. I've also done editing of textbooks and writing and editing on supplementary materials for textbook companies. I know a bit about the business. I've seen some of the publisher information on costs and profits. I've seen what counts for quality research and fact-checking by many textbook authors. I've been chided by editors for actually writing new test bank items for instuctor supplemental materials, rather than simply pulling a different assortment of questions out of the test item bank they've been using for the past few decades.

[Hausdorff]

I once had to use a statistics book that was in 6th edition, yet it still had misspellings in the titles of chapters!!

[rick]

But you mentioned that publishing companies sell for 40% above production cost... Or are you just counting materials as the production cost?

No, I didn't write that very well.

Publishers sell the books to the bookstores at 60% to 70% of the suggested retail price, which is a 30% to 40% markdown.

The stores then turn around and sell those books for the retail price.

When you take into account the cost of running a store, this does not make for a very high profit percentage.

[rick]

Sorry rick and Gingold- but from my experience, Jeffrey's 100% right.

The most notable example for me is Calculus books by Stewart. New editions come out constantly, every couple years. They change little to nothing. They literally just rearrange sections sometimes.

My department at my old college just gave graders the solution manuals for the old edition because the differences were negligible. You just had to note the section numbers were different.

It's clear why they do this. If they were still using the 2001 edition, most people would be buying used books rather than buying from them.

That's where what they're doing is simple business sense. They put out a new edition, moved around enough that it's very inconvenient to use an older one for an already confused student, then no longer sell the last edition. So the school has to use the new one, because they'll need some new copies, and all the used ones floating around are now made worthless.

It's business, but it's unethical business. Artificially creating a demand. that shouldn't exist. My current school has looked into different books, but all that are worth getting do the same.

So we're looking into using the internet to end dependence on textbooks. Which is the point we'll hopefully be at in a couple years.


Here’s where you lose me.

How is it unethical?

As I said before, most editions last for about 24 months and all textbooks are available from multiple sources, normally in both new and used formats.

And also, believe it or not, there are a large number of students that actually demand that their textbooks are completely up to date and current and who get very upset if the book is even a couple of years old.

Finally we have also been experimenting with e-texts, but again we have had a very mixed reaction to it and have found that the majority of students still perfer actual "books".

[Chris Nowlin]

No, I didn't write that very well.

Publishers sell the books to the bookstores at 60% to 70% of the suggested retail price, which is a 30% to 40% markdown.

The stores then turn around and sell those books for the retail price.

When you take into account the cost of running a store, this does not make for a very high profit percentage.

I'll also clarify that, while I have hated my bookstores before, my actual problem that I'm able to clearly speak against is the publishers. Not the bookstore. But the publisher.

[JeffreyWKramer]

So basically what you are saying is that, because it’s hard to find an inexpensive used copy of a current textbook, then textbook publishers and school bookstores are working in collusion to rip off students?
Actually, what I'm saying is that the text publishers and bookstores are in collusion to make sure there is so frequently a new "current textbook" that it's pretty hard for there to be inexpensive ones.

First off, there isn’t a textbook carried by a college in the country that isn’t available on both Amazon and Half.com, so nobody is keeping the student from purchasing textbooks elsewhere at a possibly lower rate. Which is great if the student in question has time to wait for the book to be shipped. In my experience, a lot of the time, the students don't have access to much - if any- early information about what texts will be used. One of the local-area college bookstores doesn't release that information before a few days prior to the start of classes, and makes it a practice to not put the next-semester books up on the shelves until the last moment to help prevent students from going the used-book/online route, and I'm guessing that's not a rare practice.

Secondly, even if editions were kept identical the emphasis of the bookstores and publishers would still be on selling new editions.
Sure, but the instructors and students would have more options.

And third, the vast majority of bookstores sell used copies of textbooks as well as allow students to sell books to each other.
Yeah, it's always neat how they pay $7 for a book the student bought new the semester before for $125, and then put it on the shelf for $75. How absolutely humanitarian of them. As to allowing the students to sell to each other, well, given that it would be hard to disallow this, I don't think they have much choice.

And finally, most textbooks are used for about 24 months before they are updated, so it’s not like books change on a massive level every few months.
Again... how much does the content covered in French, Western Civilization, Fundamentals of Nursing, Social Psychology or Trigonometry textbooks change over the course of 24 months? Why on earth does there need to be a new edition of these sorts of things every two years - especially given that most of the time, all the changes are a matter of editorial juggling and cosmetics?

What I object too is this automatic assumption that because something is expensive or irritating that it is some kind of rip off or scam.
My assumption isn't automatic. It's based on experience and knowledge of the field.

When you consider that most texts are available from multiple sources, both new and used and that the average text is in use for at least two years, it just isn’t really fair to call us predatory.

If the average car was designed to be obselete and unserviceable in two years, would you consider that okay?

[JeffreyWKramer]

No, I didn't write that very well.

Publishers sell the books to the bookstores at 60% to 70% of the suggested retail price, which is a 30% to 40% markdown.

The stores then turn around and sell those books for the retail price.

When you take into account the cost of running a store, this does not make for a very high profit percentage.

This I agree with. The people making the huge killing are not the bookstore people. The publishers, on the other hand... that end is entirely more lucrative.

There is a good reason there are tons of publishers competing for the same market, but you rarely see multiple competing college bookstores in the same market - and even then, only a very limited number. The big money is on the publishing end.

[Chris Nowlin]

Here’s where you lose me.

How is it unethical?

As I said before, most editions last for about 24 months and all textbooks are available from multiple sources, normally in both new and used formats.

And also, believe it or not, there are a large number of students that actually demand that their textbooks are completely up to date and current and who get very upset if the book is even a couple of years old.

Finally we have also been experimenting with e-texts, but again we have had a very mixed reaction to it and have found that the majority of students still perfer actual "books".

Yeah, I heard 24 months. Which is 2 years. And that's the problem. There's no reason for that except profit by the company to the detriment of the students.

I'll clarify that all I know well is calculus textbooks. I've seen several editions of these books. The differences are barely noticeable.

And that introductory calculus has been pretty stable since about 1850.

Unethical business practices. They have a captive audience in students, and they do everything in their power to prevent the buying of used textbooks by students. Nothing about making the new editions is to the students' benefit.

[rick]

The big difference is that comics are completely a discretionary spending matter, whereas education is not.

So, the comparison is pretty damn stupid.

So in your opinion how often should a school update its textbooks?

In that same line, which standards should they use to decide to update?

What sort of fixed price structure would you suggest for textbooks and can you make certain that it will cover all ancillary costs.

Finally, how would you insure that the cost of secondary features found in most current textbooks such as websites and software are shared equally by the students, especially when a large percentage of them will be using a second hand text?

[Chris Nowlin]

The last note is of course that bookstores won't buy back out-of-print books from students. So once the publisher issues a new edition, no bookstore wants to buy the last edition and students seeking to sell it back are out-of-luck and are stuck with a $150 book they have absolutely no use for.

[Dreadstar]

No, I didn't write that very well.

Publishers sell the books to the bookstores at 60% to 70% of the suggested retail price, which is a 30% to 40% markdown.

The stores then turn around and sell those books for the retail price.

When you take into account the cost of running a store, this does not make for a very high profit percentage.

Excuse me, honest question here:

If a textbook has a MSR of $100 and the 30-40% markdown is correct, then you're telling me that the publisher is selling this book for $60-70. Right?

Even with a 100% mark-up from production costs, that tells me that the production costs are over $30 a book?

I don't buy it.

[Chris Nowlin]

So in your opinion how often should a school update its textbooks?

In that same line, which standards should they use to decide to update?

What sort of fixed price structure would you suggest for textbooks and can you make certain that it will cover all ancillary costs.

Finally, how would you insure that the cost of secondary features found in most current textbooks such as websites and software are shared equally by the students, especially when a large percentage of them will be using a second hand text?

Can we at least agree that all decisions made by the publisher are to increase profit, rather than to actually improve the quality of the product.

The publisher could pretend to care about the students and still make plenty of money.

[Shellhead]

Why the obsession with textbooks? Why are we not talking about the outrageous cost of college tuition these days? The inflation rate is similar, but the dollar amounts are much bigger. We are approaching a turning point where higher education will become available only to the upper class and the upper middle class, or else universities will need to find a way to cut costs massively. Given the dubious quality of our education system before college, we are handicapping ourselves in a global labor market.

[Chris Nowlin]

Excuse me, honest question here:

If a textbook has a MSR of $100 and the 30-40% markdown is correct, then you're telling me that the publisher is selling this book for $60-70. Right?

Even with a 100% mark-up from production costs, that tells me that the production costs are over $30 a book?

I don't buy it.

Given that it was written years ago and the only costs are in printing...

[JeffreyWKramer]

So in your opinion how often should a school update its textbooks?
Ideally? When necessary to reflect significant change in content/information or course focus, or when a tangibly better text becomes available.

In that same line, which standards should they use to decide to update?
See above.

What sort of fixed price structure would you suggest for textbooks and can you make certain that it will cover all ancillary costs.
I dunno. That doesn't mean the current systems isn't rigged against the interest of students, though.

Finally, how would you insure that the cost of secondary features found in most current textbooks such as websites and software are shared equally by the students, especially when a large percentage of them will be using a second hand text?
Personally, I consider most of that stuff to be worthless, and just an attempt to wheedle more money out of students. In all but rare exceptions, I have contempt for instructors that require students to purchase that stuff. I've also seen trend toward that stuff being accessible only by time-limited codes and such, so as to discourage used texts.

[Chris Nowlin]

Personally, I consider most of that stuff to be worthless, and just an attempt to wheedle more money out of students. In all but rare exceptions, I have contempt for instructors that require students to purchase that stuff. I've also seen trend toward that stuff being accessible only by time-limited codes and such, so as to discourage used texts.

Neither college I've been at has ever used the supplementary CD. My current college is making their own stuff online because the professor's are fed up with the publishers' practices.

[Loren]

So in your opinion how often should a school update its textbooks?

Depends on the subject, and the level of education involved.

There are constantly new discoveries in the fields of biology, medicine, and the like. I'd say those textbooks could be updated every second or third year, with supplements inbetween. (When I was an undergrad, I hated that they seemed to update the bio book every year, seemingly changing only some captions and the picture of the monkey on the cover. Surely not *that* much had changed in Biology 101 between 1997 and 1998.)

When it comes to subjects like math and physics (and I'm speaking primarily of undergraduate level classes here), I think new textbooks should be issued far more infrequently. I don't think anyone's making new advances in algebra or mechanics that merit a new book every few years. Lower-level foreign language shouldn't change much, nor should English grammar.

With some of the liberal arts, it's a tougher call. People regularly write new books with new insights on old subjects (eg, history), but books for other classes can be pretty static (eg, philosophy). I took a class on the Old Testament where the professor had stuck with the same textbook for 20 years or so, because he hadn't found a newer book he liked better.

[K'Nort]

Why the obsession with textbooks? Why are we not talking about the outrageous cost of college tuition these days? The inflation rate is similar, but the dollar amounts are much bigger.

The studies indicate that the cost of books is rising much faster than the cost of tuition. Plus financing books is frequently more challenging than financing tuition (fewer sources of aid, no payment plans, etc). And, as you well know, discussing one specific topic does not mean that no one cares about any other.

We are approaching a turning point where higher education will become available only to the upper class and the upper middle class, or else universities will need to find a way to cut costs massively. Given the dubious quality of our education system before college, we are handicapping ourselves in a global labor market.

The solution there is not and never will be cheaper higher education. Higher education was never supposed to be for the majority. The colleges are shouldering the burden of the K-12 system's failure and that's not an answer. It's the K-12 that needs to be fixed. And probably no one will sit down and make that happen until the alternative is eliminated.

[Sanagi]

I gotta hear more about this. More please.
A couple years ago, in one of my classes, the teacher took a minute to point out some mistakes in the book. One student's book didn't have the mistakes, because it was an older version.

[Serik]

My geology professor wrote a textbook and had the whole class buy it. It was the first edition so he offered extra credit to any student who found a mistake.

One guy spent an entire weekend finding every mistake in the book. He counted the valance electrons in one picture and discovered they added too many.

In addition to an absurd amount of extra credit, the publisher gave him several thousand dollars for copy editing the damn book. Win win for both of them.

[Sabrina_Fried]

I recently tracked down the current edition of an entry level environmental textbook I had used when I was in my undergraduate courses almost ten years ago. The content of the textbook was fundamentally unchanged, except for some reorganization of the sections, and they had updated some of the statistics to include things that had been measured in the 10 years since the edition I had used in class.

All the statistics were sourced from government reserach or other such publically available studies which can be easily found either online or in any good, or even mediocre university library.

The price of the textbook was also about double of what my edition had cost me back in the day, and there were no frills (ie websites, CDs, etc). The new edition (ironically for an environmental textbooks), was also printed on a poorer quality paper, and was printed in China, where the cost of paper and printing is a fraction of what it is in North America.

In my last year of university, I got sick of paying scads of money for books my professor would barely refer to, especially when they wrote those books and then forced their students to buy them just so they could collect the royalties, or at least ensure that they score another textbook gig with the same publisher by making sure the publisher at least breaks even on their book (and yes, I HAVE worked in textbook publishing, believe me, this is EXACTLY what is happening). Fortunetly, the university where I did my undergrad had a policy that for every course there must be at least two copies of the current edition of every textbook used in the classes on reserve in the library. I spent many a hour in that library reading my textbooks for free.

I'm currently taking a distance education Environmental Course to sharpen some of my skills. The professor for this course has not only decided to use trade books, which contain ALL the same information as any textbook he could have chosen, but one of the books is available to read or download online, for FREE, under a Creative Commons license.

Sabrina

[Chris Nowlin]

My geology professor wrote a textbook and had the whole class buy it. It was the first edition so he offered extra credit to any student who found a mistake.

One guy spent an entire weekend finding every mistake in the book. He counted the valance electrons in one picture and discovered they added too many.

In addition to an absurd amount of extra credit, the publisher gave him several thousand dollars for copy editing the damn book. Win win for both of them.

First editions always have mistakes. So I support the creation of a second edition with mistakes edited out, always.

A 9th edition that is in no way superior to the 8th...

[Paul McEnery]

When I got my undergraduate math degree in England, I bought two, count them, two textbooks. At about ten bucks apiece. Because they were real books. Everything else I got from the lecturer. Which is as it should be.

I still remember being stunned when I saw American textbooks. The cost is bad enough, but the juvenile level of the texts is staggering. I'm soooooo sure we need all those full-colour illustrations to pump the cost up.

And I'm double staggered by how moronic almost all teaching in American undergrad classes is. Put on a video. Repeat the material someone who can actually read will, shockingly, be able to find in the textbook.

It's not just the textbooks that are a ripoff. It's the whole system.

[darkhanamaru]

i don't know what your teachers were like here but for the most part, my undergrad classes were not like that

[Paul McEnery]

i don't know what your teachers were like here but for the most part, my undergrad classes were not like that

I know. I know.

Because you went to Staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanford.

(A school so bleeding smart it gave money to Condoleeza Rice. That's zero, count them, zero snob points. Hah!)

But most kids have to rely on State colleges and Community colleges. And that's how it is. Lousy.

[Chris Nowlin]

The other thing is it's not currently a problem for me, like it is for my students.

Because advanced books don't feel terrible overpriced and used versions tend to be available.

Even though these are books that: relatively few people use, and actually can go out-of-date because they're in fields that are relatively new and expanding at a fast rate.

And there are relatively few texts on a single topic and relatively few people in the world qualified to write them.

It's all backwards. The books on introductory material which every big school sells to hundreds of students each quarter on material that's been stable for centuries are: more expensive, more difficult to acquire used, more constantly updated...

Big business making education more difficult to afford than it needs to be in a country already far stupider than it by rights should be.

[darkhanamaru]

I know. I know.

Because you went to Staaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanford.

(A school so bleeding smart it gave money to Condoleeza Rice. That's zero, count them, zero snob points. Hah!)

But most kids have to rely on State colleges and Community colleges. And that's how it is. Lousy.

you know., i was there when she was provost and a professor and this is my take:

1. she was a competent provost until she started cutting programs for ideological and not fiscal reasons -- then we screamed bloody murder

2. as a professor, while we all disagreed with her, she was actually interesting, had a point of view and gave a shit about her students. one of my friends completely got through grad school because of her even though they were on opposite ends of the ideological spectrum. BTW my friend's Phd was on race and the military

But unfortunately the politics have kicked in, she has left stanford and she has mutated into something else. washington does that unfortunately.

and i haven't always taken classes at stanford dear. there are other data points. But maybe if you didn't talk so much you might have known that ;)

[Sanagi]

Incidentally, the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a textbook: In the history of popular music class I took last year there was a visual aid in the book. It showed one measure of a music staff, in treble clef, with one note: B-flat. The caption read: "A blue note in the key of C." This is like a math book showing a big picture of the number 2, with a caption reading "X, if X=1+1." It's completely abstract and context-free information.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Neither college I've been at has ever used the supplementary CD. My current college is making their own stuff online because the professor's are fed up with the publishers' practices.

Good for them!

[founder81]

Which is great if the student in question has time to wait for the book to be shipped. In my experience, a lot of the time, the students don't have access to much - if any- early information about what texts will be used. One of the local-area college bookstores doesn't release that information before a few days prior to the start of classes, and makes it a practice to not put the next-semester books up on the shelves until the last moment to help prevent students from going the used-book/online route, and I'm guessing that's not a rare practice.


I'll back this up. I've seen it too.

Finally, how would you insure that the cost of secondary features found in most current textbooks such as websites and software are shared equally by the students, especially when a large percentage of them will be using a second hand text?


Simple. The whole text could be online and just provide links. The instructor could hand out a piece of paper with "www.youtextbook.com"

That would be good for the students, but bad for the publishers.


One thing that publishers may take advantage of, is the mind set of old = bad. So that could contribute to tolance of new editions.

[Serik]

Incidentally, the dumbest thing I've ever seen in a textbook: In the history of popular music class I took last year there was a visual aid in the book. It showed one measure of a music staff, in treble clef, with one note: B-flat. The caption read: "A blue note in the key of C." This is like a math book showing a big picture of the number 2, with a caption reading "X, if X=1+1." It's completely abstract and context-free information.

Yeah, you pay $150 for a new textbook and then find pages and pages of useless stuff like this.

Of course it also reflects poorly on professors who select such bullshit-laden textbooks for their courses.

[rick]

I'll back this up. I've seen it too.




Simple. The whole text could be online and just provide links. The instructor could hand out a piece of paper with "www.youtextbook.com"

That would be good for the students, but bad for the publishers.


One thing that publishers may take advantage of, is the mind set of old = bad. So that could contribute to tolance of new editions.



I’ve got to tell you that oddly enough, you have it backwards, you really do.

The publishers would love to move everything over to e-books. They would still make loads of money, but without all those nasty printing costs. For publishers it is a complete win/win situation to go to e-books.

The people who are putting up the big fight against electronic textbooks are the students.

I know it sounds like it is going against their best interests, but as it stands now, most students still want books.

[Alex]

I have one more thing to add, that has nothing to do with the textbook makers or sellers.
Professors, stop making me buy your book if i'm only going to use it twice, thank you.
This is my new beef with them, once i switched my degree to business realted, the whole liberal bias thing went away(apprently, all business professors are scary conservative, and shocker, bias i agree with is as annoying as bias i don't). So my new thing is, bitching about how much money i wasted on books i'm not using.
Thanks to rick and kramer and coke for dueling opinions, sorry i didn't get to check in on this sooner.

[K'Nort]

I know it sounds like it is going against their best interests, but as it stands now, most students still want books.

It's true. The whole doing everything online is only half accurate. Similarly, for articles, undergraduate students will only look at things that are available full-text online. Usually won't even consider getting a photocopy of an article that the library actually owns in print form. But when they do find the .pdf, they print it.

[founder81]

I’ve got to tell you that oddly enough, you have it backwards, you really do.

The publishers would love to move everything over to e-books. They would still make loads of money, but without all those nasty printing costs. For publishers it is a complete win/win situation to go to e-books.

The people who are putting up the big fight against electronic textbooks are the students.

I know it sounds like it is going against their best interests, but as it stands now, most students still want books.


When I said move thing online, I meant students could access the text for free. I can't see how publishers would want that.

Everything else you said, I agree with.

[rick]

When I said move thing online, I meant students could access the text for free. I can't see how publishers would want that.

Everything else you said, I agree with.


And if they give this material to students for free, how are they going to pay the people who put the material together, maintain the websites and handle all of the technical ends of things?

Are they going to be volunter their time, effort and knowlodge or what?

[founder81]

And if they give this material to students for free, how are they going to pay the people who put the material together, maintain the websites and handle all of the technical ends of things?

Are they going to be volunter their time, effort and knowlodge or what?

Free is never going to happen. But like you said before, its more people want books then the costs of running the technology.

The cost of running a website and editing information has to be less then printing thousands of pyhsical books. Maybe a small subscription fee? This would eliminate the used book market. Everyone who wants the text would have to sign up.

I know 2 local schools have bought laptops in gross*, worked the cost into tuition and give every student one. A system like that could eliminate textbooks. If every student has a laptop and the campus has functioning wireless connections, online texts would still be in the hands of students.

Taking this another step, these sites could be operated by the schools themselves. With no paper being printed, inhouse website upkeep is feasible. Every school has a website as is, it would just be larger.

(My knowledge of website hardware is sketchy at best. I may just be talking out of my ass)

*the amount I heard tossed around is that if bought in bulk, a $2000 retail laptop would only cost $500.

[Sean Walsh]

Because it contains invaluable knowledge?

Wikipedia gives me more bountiful knowledge for zero money.

However, textbooks can also be used as doorstops, weights, sandbags, barriers, bookshelf decorations and a device to beat another human to death with. Do those things total up and justify the retail cost?

[Subotai]

My geology professor wrote a textbook and had the whole class buy it. It was the first edition so he offered extra credit to any student who found a mistake.

One guy spent an entire weekend finding every mistake in the book. He counted the valance electrons in one picture and discovered they added too many.

In addition to an absurd amount of extra credit, the publisher gave him several thousand dollars for copy editing the damn book. Win win for both of them.

Pretty cool prof.

[Bradley]

And I'm double staggered by how moronic almost all teaching in American undergrad classes is. Put on a video. Repeat the material someone who can actually read will, shockingly, be able to find in the textbook.


I just noticed this post. Is this supposed to be a joke? If not, how, exactly, are you qualified to evaluate "almost all teaching in American undergrad classes"? Because you happen to be completely wrong in this assessment-- while there are certainly some bad instructors throughout the academy, to suggest that they are the majority-- or even a significant minority-- is a pretty bold claim that flies in the face of logic and many people's experiences. There are far more people who have PhDs in North America than there are tenure-track positions for them; at most state schools, teaching counts for about 50% of the professor's job responsibilities, which means that the professor's student evaluations as well as peer evaluations (from other professors who observes his or her class) matter a great deal. The idea that, in this market, a professor can just "phone it in" by putting on a video or reading from the textbook strikes me as absurd. I'm sure some people do it, but these aren't the people who hold onto their jobs for very long.

(Or, they're the people who have had their jobs for too long, who have risen to the rank of full professor, and are now just killing time until retirement. These people are a problem, but, again, they don't make up a majority, let alone "almost all")

As far as the initital point of this thread... Yes, textbooks cost too much, and reasonable professors try to keep that in mind, I think. I know that my wife and I are careful to select the most reasonably-priced books we can find with the most information relevant to our classes, and I've taken to supplementing my reading list with information found online. Sometimes, this means compromising on what I'd like to do with a class-- I would prefer to teach E.B. White's "The Ring of Time," but "Once More to the Lake" (which is just as good and deals with similar themes) is available online, so I tend to use "Once More to the Lake" rather than have my students buy an additional book (which I would then feel obligated to incorporate more of into my class)-- it's more convenient for the students, but in the long run it's also more convenient for me.

[K'Nort]

Most professors aren't reasonable then. Surveys keep showing that over half of them have no idea what the textbooks they assign actually cost. Doesn't occur to them to take price into account.

[Bradley]

Most professors aren't reasonable then. Surveys keep showing that over half of them have no idea what the textbooks they assign actually cost. Doesn't occur to them to take price into account.

A professor not knowing how much a textbook costs doesn't necessarily mean that he or she isn't thinking about how much a student is paying, though. For example, I'm not sure exactly how much a new or used copy of the anthology I'm using in one of my classes next semester costs, but I do know that there are cheaper (and, for my purposes, inferior) anthologies out there. If I were to use one of those cheaper anthologies, I would have to ask my students to purchase additional texts to compensate for the anthology's shortcomings. I might put materials on reserve at the library, which they would have to photocopy. I might give them links to longer essays located online, which they would have to print out. In the end, I'm quite certain that asking them to buy the better book is saving them money (even if I don't know how much).

I know that there are some people who will have students purchase a collection of short stories, only to assign one or two of the stories from the collection. Or they'll have the students buy a $100 anthology, only to skip over most of the material in the anthology. That's irresponsible and unreasonable, but most schools (or, at least, the four I've worked for) ask students about how the books were used in the class at evaluation time. Doesn't do those students much good, but the professor does (or, at least, should) get told that such wastefulness is inappropriate, and (hopefully) learns to be more reasonable for next time.