What, Or Rather WHERE'S The Point? (Exclamation Point, That Is!)

[Scott Shaw!]

I sent this to my pal Mark Evanier, but he's really busy these days (and so am I) so I never heard back from him. However, I think that it's worth posting for discussion/speculation here:
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Mark,

Today, you wrote about Marvel's rather obvious "two-for-the-price-of-one" cost-cutting measure.

Well, I've got another production question about something that happened during roughly the same period. But I doubt if it was for cost-cutting reasons, unless Marvel's letterers charged extra for exclamation points.

I was reminded of it while perusing the latest Marvel Essentials reprints of FANTASTIC FOUR, Vol. 5. For about three issues in 1970 or so, in any statement that would have been punctuated with an exclamation point, the "!" is missing! (This is not the case, however, in which two sentences are in the same word balloon; in this case, only the first sentence is adorned with an exclamation point -- probably to separate the two sentences -- but the second one is missing.

Now, as someone who began using an exclamation point on my last name in emulation of typical funnybook punctuation, I guess I'm particularly sensitive to the absence of exclamation points. But this temporary practice REALLY bothered me back in 1970 and it still bothers me a bit.

I have a hunch that there was some sort of edict to eliminate all "unnecessary" exclamation points to make Marvel's product seem more "adult" or "sophisticated". But why in the name of Artie Simek didn't Marvel merely substitute a period for the offending exclamation points? The lack of punctuation didn't make Marvel's product seem less childish; it only made 'em seem more illiterate...and harder to read, to boot.

"Mark, can you please clear up this three-decades-long mystery for me?" Scott exclaimed!

Aloha,

Scott!

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So, what do YOU guys think?

Aloha,

Scott!

[dan bailey]

I dunno, but I am curious about what

Marvel's rather obvious "two-for-the-price-of-one" cost-cutting measure

is in reference to ...

[Kirk G]

I dunno, but I am curious about what

Marvel's rather obvious "two-for-the-price-of-one" cost-cutting measure

is in reference to ...

I agree. I hadn't heard about this.

I always thought that the practice of spliting one page of artwork into the two top halves of the center spread of the book was VERY weird, and distracting... I was SO glad when it stopped.

Does anyone know the story behind this one?

[MDG]

I dunno, but I am curious about what

Marvel's rather obvious "two-for-the-price-of-one" cost-cutting measure

is in reference to ...

Here...
http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2007_06_03.html#013542

Re: exclamation points--Conan had plenty, but I think there was an editorial decision not to use any POW! ZAP! WHAM! sound effects. Did this carry over to other S&S books?

MDG

[Red Oak Kid]

I just assumed letterers got paid by the page, but I don't know why I thought that.

The link to Mark's article provided by MDG pretty much answers Kirk's question unless he is talking about the late 60s when DC had artists draw a couple of half pages per issue. I assume this was to save money. It probably wasn't as big a hassle as the Marvel idea which I think was mid 70s.

The DC half pages were still drawn at the normal scale and didn't require any special handling by the production dept.

[Rob Allen]

I don't remember the completely punctuationless sentences. I was away from comics in 1970, so I probably missed that phase. But I do remember some controversy when Marvel started ending some sentences with periods instead of exclamations. I think they did it in Conan first.

Conan was groundbreaking in several ways:

- new genre for Marvel
- periods at the end of some sentences
- no sound effects
- nipples on male chests

[T GUy]

The link to Mark's article provided by MDG pretty much answers Kirk's question unless he is talking about the late 60s when DC had artists draw a couple of half pages per issue. I assume this was to save money. It probably wasn't as big a hassle as the Marvel idea which I think was mid 70s. - ROK

The Marvel print-same-size-as-drawn cheapskatery was April to October, 1974 (from memory). They had tried the two half-pages earlier, I think just before the 12c to 15c transition - 1969?

[Scott Shaw!]

Gentleman Jim MacQuarrie makes a very plausible case for his highly-edumacated guess -- right c'here, folks:

http://www.oddballcomics.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=966

And I make a wild stab at whose idea the elimination-of-exclamation points may have been! (Does the time-frame make sense?)

Aloha,

Scott!

[Scott Shaw!]

Well I just spoke with Roy Thomas and according to the Rascally One

A) The no-exclamation-points edit was intended to make Marvel's magazines seem more "mature" and less "juvenile"

B) The edict came from Smilin' Stan Lee himself

C) Roy thinks that the only stories in which that this edict was actually applied were ones that Stan wrote such as those in FANTASTIC FOUR Volume 5 ESSENTIALS

D) When Roy was told to adhere to this directive he openly defied it in stories he wrote for Marvel

E) Roy is unsure why it took three months to stop eliminating exclamation points It could have been that when the books finally hit the newsstand that everyone at Marvel agreed the effort didn't work or that Stan got a few letters of complaint or that Stan (who already had one foot out the door for Hollywood) just got tired of trying to push his theory on the rest of the Marvel staff and gave up

So there you have it True Believers Face Front O' Frantic Ones

Aloha

Scott

[Scott Shaw!]

Oh, and Rascally Roy agreed that -- even though Marvel's no-exclamation-points policy was Smilin' Stan's idea -- it was exactly the sort of randomly-conceived "rule" that publisher Martin Goodman's son "Chip" "Animal-Masks-On-Cowboy-Bank-Robbers" Goodman would concoct and try to enforce!

Aloha,

Scott!

[T GUy]

Obviously runs in the family.

However, I can see Stan's point and probably agree with him on this one.

[scratchie]

What I want to know is... do you call him "Rascally" in person? :D

[Scott Shaw!]

However, I can see Stan's point and probably agree with him on this one.

I'm genuinely curious, T Guy. Try reading those FANTASTIC FOUR stories that Stan wrote without any periods or exclamation points. (I don't have the exact issue numbers here, but they're in the "The Thing turns bad and fights the Hulk" and "The Overmind" story arcs before Archie Goodwin started writing the book.) Then share your reaction with us. (I've got a hunch you're gonna find it to seem illiterate, not sophisticated!)

Aloha,

Scott!

[Sir Tim Drake]

I'm genuinely curious, T Guy. Try reading those FANTASTIC FOUR stories that Stan wrote without any periods or exclamation points. (I don't have the exact issue numbers here, but they're in the "The Thing turns bad and fights the Hulk" and "The Overmind" story arcs before Archie Goodwin started writing the book.) Then share your reaction with us. (I've got a hunch you're gonna find it to seem illiterate, not sophisticated!)

Aloha,

Scott!

I've read some of these stories, and I find the lack of punctuation to be very jarring

It creates the impression that there's something missing. It looks like a printer's error rather than a deliberate choice

When I first encountered this, in a reprint of Amazing Spider-Man #96-98, I thought it was an error

And it negatively impacted my enjoyment of the story

I'm glad Stan gave up on this experiment after a short time

[Ventura]

FF Essentials #6 brought back bad memories for me. I'd read those FF issues (#112-#114) as a child and I remember thinking the dialogue lacked "rhythm." Visually it looked sloppy; and it probably made me feel, on some level, that the writer (Stan) didn't care about the book anymore. This reinforced my feeling that the book's quality was going downhill since Jack's departure (despite the Buscema-Sinnott team's best efforts).

Back then I also regularly read Sub-Mariner and Avengers (which, IIRC, were scripted by Roy at the time) and both books remained well written and appropriate punctuation was used. They were just so much more literate, more enjoyable to read than the FF book was at the time. I recall I stopped reading FF after #114/115 or so, and I'm sure the "dead" dialogue was a big part of it; it just did not flow well.

Luckily, as you have all noted, Stan's experiment was brief!

[T GUy]

I'm genuinely curious, T Guy. Try reading those FANTASTIC FOUR stories that Stan wrote without any periods or exclamation points. (I don't have the exact issue numbers here, but they're in the "The Thing turns bad and fights the Hulk" and "The Overmind" story arcs before Archie Goodwin started writing the book.) Then share your reaction with us. (I've got a hunch you're gonna find it to seem illiterate, not sophisticated!)

Well, I have to confess I haven't read any issues of the FF post Kirby pre-Goodwin, so, yes, I'll have to get back to you on this one if I ever acquire some and get around to reading them.

The complete lack of punctuation would probably put me off - I was thinking that the smilin' one had dropped the exclamation marks in favour of full stops, rather than eliminated punctuation altogether.