Stan Lee's unrealized project?

[benday-dot]

I just finished reading a nice Chic Stone interview from the Jack Kirby Collector (I know-- it seems this is all I read) and he mentions an old "failed" idea of Stan Lee's "to print from very tight pencilling." The idea was apparently to eliminate the role of the inker! If gone ahead with this would have been a pretty radical notion, and also, I suspect, to get the pencil work finished enough on its own merits, have delayed comic book production considerable, perhaps rendering the monthly serial unrealistic. This is the first I have heard of this project of Stan's. Does anyone know any further information on an idea that not only would have put out of work a lot of inkers, as Chic Stone said, but have drastically changed the look of comics?

[Kirk G]

When would this have happened? What is the time period? And, in which issue of the JKC did this interview appear??? - A fellow TJKC fiend!

[MDG]

Bill Gaines also toyed with the idea of printing from pencils to save money--Feldstein did a "Going Steady with Peggy" story in pencil ready to go when the bottom fell out of the teen humor market. The story was printed in an issue of Squa Tront.

I know some "deluxe" books like Nathaniel Dusk were printed from pencils, but the only traditional newsprint book I can think of that was printed from pencils is a Byrne Cap America story.

MDG

[Cei-U!]

If memory serves, part of a Conan the Barbarian issue was printed directly from Barry Smith's pencils because of his chronic lateness. Can't remember which, though.

Cei-U!
I summon the memory lapse!

[InfoBroker]

I read that interview a couple months back. I'll do some digging and see if I can find it.

There were several pencillers whose finish detail and sharp line could almost pull this off. But no matter how much you tweaked the photostat machine, my final feeling is that it was a very mushy line.

One published example (from much later that Chic's timeframe), is the final few pages of Conan #19.

The idea isn't much different that what Ub Iwerks developed at Disney to create the cells for animation. It all pivots from the electrostatic patents of the Xerox company.

As for other comical book examples, Tom Luth pioneered the use of Adobe software products for comical book color separation processing, which eliminated the expense for printers to have engravers do the work from the color guides, and of course the industry eventual moved to the broader scope and palettes that Photoshop provides.

-jb the ( then there's Fontographer from Macromedia and its impact on lettering) ib -

[InfoBroker]

In addition, I believe the print-from-Barry's pencil was also meant to provide him with a process to maintain some of the original artwork.

-jb the pencil smudged ib -

[Scott Shaw!]

When I was working at Hanna-Barbera in the late 1970s (on THE NEW FRED AND BARNEY SHOW, aka FRED AND BARNEY MEET THE THING, aka FRED AND BARNEY MEET THE SHMOO), there was an editor (NOT my pal Mark Evanier) who was in charge of licensed print product, such as activity books and coloring books. He had me draw an entire book for him, quoting one rate for pencil art and a second one for inks. When he saw how tight I penciled, he told me that he'd just print from my pencils, cheating me out of the inking fee I was counting on. I never trusted that guy again.

I think that a lot of comic book artists nowdays draw so tight because many of them learned how to draw by looking at the inked artwork in printed comics. Being essentially self-taught, I know that's why MY stuff is drawn so tight.

Aloha,

Scott!

[berk]

Bill Gaines also toyed with the idea of printing from pencils to save money--Feldstein did a "Going Steady with Peggy" story in pencil ready to go when the bottom fell out of the teen humor market. The story was printed in an issue of Squa Tront.

I know some "deluxe" books like Nathaniel Dusk were printed from pencils, but the only traditional newsprint book I can think of that was printed from pencils is a Byrne Cap America story.

MDGThat Nathaniel Dusk miniseries is still one of the best things ever done in comicbook art, IMO. But not everyone's a Gene Colan.

And if the Kirby Collector has done nothing else, it's shown how amazing Kirby's pencil's sans inks were - and how very different in emotional tone they could often be from the inked and coloured pages.

[Red Oak Kid]

Neal Adams had a number of stories reproed from pencils in the late 60s, early 70s.

The cover of House of Mystery 177 is just pencils.

House of Mystery 178 contains an Adams drawn story that is just pencils.

In Astonishing Tales 12, the origin of Man Thing in the story within a story was reproduced from Adams' pencils.

In all three examples the penciled art was shot as a line shot just like inked pages. Any light gray tones will drop out. In order for this method to work, the pencils have to be very dark, almost as dark as india ink in order to reproduce.

Another way to reproduce from pencils is to shoot the art as a half-tone like a photograph in a newspaper. This uses tiny dots to hold the light gray of the pencils. This is how Nathaniel Dusk and Detectives Inc. were reproduced. Shooting a half-tone is more expensive than a line shot, so whatever money you save by not having an inker may be eaten up by the higher costs of the film negatives.

I don't know if any of these techniques are still relevant in today's comics since computers have taken over.

[MDG]

I don't know if any of these techniques are still relevant in today's comics since computers have taken over.
Today, Brian Bolland scans pencil drawings and "inks" them on the computer.

On some internet group I'm on, Bill DuBay wrote about how some of Richard Corben's stories for Warren were colored back before computers. They'd hand-draw toned color guides--in black pencil--for each of the three ink colors.

MDG

[scratchie]

That Nathaniel Dusk miniseries is still one of the best things ever done in comicbook art, IMO.The second volume, anyway. I had a hard time enjoying the first miniseries because of the bizarre coloring. It would have been much better in black & white (or, strictly speaking, grey & white).

FYI, this recent book was also printed from Colan's pencils:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511XW4YE65L._SS500_.jpg

(Curse of Dracula by Colan and Wolfman, on Dark Horse).

[berk]

The second volume, anyway. I had a hard time enjoying the first miniseries because of the bizarre coloring. It would have been much better in black & white (or, strictly speaking, grey & white).

FYI, this recent book was also printed from Colan's pencils:

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/511XW4YE65L._SS500_.jpg

(Curse of Dracula by Colan and Wolfman, on Dark Horse).thanks - hadn't heard about that one!

[spoon_jenkins]

I think the "Monitor Tapes" (the black and white panels at the bottom of each page of Crisis on Infinite Earth #10) may have been penciled by George Perez without inks. But I guess there's also something else to get the pixelated effect (like screentone or something).

[Bill Angus]

I think you're right - I remember reading that the Monitor Tapes were shot from Perez's pencils. Originally, they had been planning on having Ordway pencil those & Perez ink them, IIRC, but they ran into time problems. Instead, there's 1 page where they did the switch (sorry - I don't remember which issue, but I know it's on Apokolypse {sp?}).

[benday-dot]

Thanks guys for all the wonderful replies. For the record the Chic Stone interview comes from TJKC 13, spotlighting Thor (possibly, the title featuring my favourite Kirby work, or would that be New Gods or Kamandi or Silver Star... I really can't pick) It turns out the only one of these shoot-from-pencils examples of which I was aware is the Conan #19 example mentioned by Cei-U and IB.

All my comics are very close at hand and I thought I'd scan in a little compare and contrast of the Conan issue at issue.

The uninked version is no disaster, but it is evident that if Stan had gone ahead with his lets get rid of the inkers to save some $$ scheme some work would have had to be undertaken. Part of the problem is Smith had by now developed quite a fine touch (though interestingly enough he began, as many new Marvel artists had at the time, as a Kirby imitator), and really needed some sold ink work to be shot correctly. Stone of course, this being the Kirby Collector, knew Lee had Jack in mind when he was thinking about his project. Kirby of course not only delivers tight pencilling, but very solid discrete linework.

BTW I just love the Adkins inked page. Utterly cinematic, purely descriptive and composed without a single concession to any form of haste-- and a strict fidelity to a sort of sequential ideal. All those panels of the mastwork... pretty remarkable stuff for an action comic.

[Red Oak Kid]

BTW I just love the Adkins inked page. Utterly cinematic, purely descriptive and composed without a single concession to any form of haste-- and a strict fidelity to a sort of sequential ideal. All those panels of the mastwork... pretty remarkable stuff for an action comic.

I had forgotten about that page. That scan brings back great memories of when I was first discovering Conan and Barry Smith.

I just stumbled on this cover of Tales of Suspense 6 where the Kirby monster is not inked. Looks like a wash, but there could be some original pencils involved. A cover like this which has both wash and inked elements would involve a little extra effort from the production dept and printer.Tales of Suspense 6 (http://www.comics.org/coverview.lasso?id=15367&zoom=4)