I hope Tony Stark punches the Hulk out

[Charles RB]

I think I'm in the minority here, but - "I hope the Hulk beats up Iron Man for being a dick!"? I'm the other way round. I hope Iron Man beats up Hulk for being a dick.

He routinely trashes cities, i.e. people's homes because he's in a bad mood. He routinely fights the other Marvel heroes, for much crappier reasons than Tony did; I have a PAD issue where the Hulk deliberately fights the X-Men when he doesn't have to just to fight them. He's been recently established as having killed people in his rampages (which is a no-brainer really, that's what big green city-smashing monsters do). He is currently invading Earth with an alien army that include the goddamn Brood, and will be forcing the evacuation of New York City.

The Hulk's a dick. I hope Tony kicks his teeth in while yelling "YES we shot into space - and based on what you're doing now, WE WERE RIGHT TO!". Coz he was.

Go Tony!

[Nick Soapdish]

Can we hope that they both knock each other's lights out - preferably in the most embarrassing fashion possible?

[Charles RB]

Can we hope that they both knock each other's lights out - preferably in the most embarrassing fashion possible?

Molly Hayes can slip them up with banana peels and then run off giggling.

[Kevinroc]

I think I'm in the minority here, but - "I hope the Hulk beats up Iron Man for being a dick!"? I'm the other way round. I hope Iron Man beats up Hulk for being a dick.

He routinely trashes cities, i.e. people's homes because he's in a bad mood. He routinely fights the other Marvel heroes, for much crappier reasons than Tony did; I have a PAD issue where the Hulk deliberately fights the X-Men when he doesn't have to just to fight them. He's been recently established as having killed people in his rampages (which is a no-brainer really, that's what big green city-smashing monsters do). He is currently invading Earth with an alien army that include the goddamn Brood, and will be forcing the evacuation of New York City.

The Hulk's a dick. I hope Tony kicks his teeth in while yelling "YES we shot into space - and based on what you're doing now, WE WERE RIGHT TO!". Coz he was.

Go Tony!

First up Hulk does not routinely trash cities, at least not any worse than any other super powered being does.

Second, which Hulk vs. X-Men story is that? Is this towards the end of PAD's run where Hulk was separated from Bruce Banner and was dying? (During the Heroes Reborn era.) Hulk's reasons for fighting the other super heroes basically boil down to his belief that they all are trying to kill him, which he certainly has a right to assume given his history.

Thirdly, Hulk does not kill tons of people in his rampages. They hint at it but don't outright state it, leaving a lot of ambiguity. And then in She-Hulk, Dan Slott cleared it up by having a SHIELD agent state that there are no fatalities. Of course, that still means Hulk does actually really hurt people in his rampages. They just ain't dead. PAD even retconned Hulk killing people during his mindless era.

Fourthly, Hulk is not a dick. He saves the planet every now and then but the other people still hound him and try to destroy him.

These pictures should explain it.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/imagebot%20uploads/IncredibleHulk406p19.jpg

(For the record, Hulk ended up being right in that story.)

And this one is so ironic it's not even funny.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g248/dabig2/imagebot%20uploads/IncredibleHulk434-18.jpg

[Night Swordsman]

Without getting into a back history of both groups,how about we stick to the recent facts:

After agreeing to help,Reed,Tony,Stephen,and Blackagon(got to love that one) arange a fake scenerio and launch the Hulk out into space.

They also mess that up,and a cosmic anomoly send Hulk to his new planet.

After a bit of adjustment,Hulk finds his role on the planet,and eventually becomes King.

And gets married.

And is about to become a father.

AND then,a doomsday bomb on the ship that brought the Hulk here takes all that away from the Hulk.

A bomb put there to KILL the Hulk. And done so by some people he considered friends(Reed and Stephen). This was obscene.

Remember,the Hulk/Bruce was just attempting to HELP Nick Fury and Shield,because they ASKED him to. Just like they asked him to in his previous appearance in Fanstastic Four(in which his last rampage was caused,leading to this situation).

So...Hulk helps people who claim they are his friends,they betray him,launch him into space. Ok then. Screw them and hope they leave him alone. But they couldn't leave it alone. They had to have a weapon aboard to destroy him,"just in case". And murder millions of 'innocent' alien life forms.

WHO the HELL gives THESE four the right to have access to,and impliment WMD's and send them out into space,where they can,and DID,cause such catasrophe's? Did anyone on Sakar DESERVE to die from these four?

Hope Hulk wins. You can argue this all you want,but these four have commited wholesale mass murder,and as the rightful monarch of soverign state,he has the right to retaliate with war. You may not like it,i may not like it,but if someone just blew up half of the USA,do you think that Maybe,JUST maybe,the remaining states might just be a little pissed off and go to war for that?

[Jack Zodiac]

AND then,a doomsday bomb on the ship that brought the Hulk here takes all that away from the Hulk.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. The warp drive on the ship was damaged when it crashed and after a while it exploded. They didn't put a bomb on his ship with the intent to kill him. They wanted to send him to a completely barren planet where he'd be able to live alone without hurting anyone and without anyone bothering him. They fucked up.

I'm seeing it more and more, everyone (even the nicest guys) in the Marvel Universe is being a fucking dick these days.

[Kevinroc]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No. The warp drive on the ship was damaged when it crashed and after a while it exploded. They didn't put a bomb on his ship with the intent to kill him. They wanted to send him to a completely barren planet where he'd be able to live alone without hurting anyone and without anyone bothering him. They fucked up.

I'm seeing it more and more, everyone (even the nicest guys) in the Marvel Universe is being a fucking dick these days.

Which damages Tony more than it does Hulk.

[Ian Boothby]

I'm with Dan Slott. The Hulk hasn't killed anyone.
If he has then every superhero has and if that's the case the whole house of cards falls down.
You have to suspend disbelief for the world of superheroes to work. If Hulk is a killer then it doesn't work.

[Night Swordsman]

Facts still remain simple. Tony(along with Reed and the others) did not want the Hulk around to interfere with them. They then concocted this entire scheme to send him into exile from Earth,hopefully forever. I still do not believe that the "warp drive" malfunctioned,but lets say it did. Millions of people still died from it. Accidental or on Purpose,they launced a WMD that caused a entire planets population to almost become extinct. And i am sure that Tony will just say "Whoops. My fault. We won't do that again!". :rolleyes:

Dosn't change a DAMN thing. These four are now MASS murders on a global scale. They have done what the Red Skull would LOVE to boast about.

[Kevinroc]

I'm with Dan Slott. The Hulk hasn't killed anyone.
If he has then every superhero has and if that's the case the whole house of cards falls down.
You have to suspend disbelief for the world of superheroes to work. If Hulk is a killer then it doesn't work.

It isn't just Dan Slott who said it. Greg Pak and Peter David also subscribe to the line of thinking that Hulk's rampages don't kill people.

Why anyone wants to argue with the actual writers of Hulk's comics, I don't know.

[PatrickG]

Facts still remain simple. Tony(along with Reed and the others) did not want the Hulk around to interfere with them. They then concocted this entire scheme to send him into exile from Earth,hopefully forever. I still do not believe that the "warp drive" malfunctioned,but lets say it did. Millions of people still died from it. Accidental or on Purpose,they launced a WMD that caused a entire planets population to almost become extinct. And i am sure that Tony will just say "Whoops. My fault. We won't do that again!". :rolleyes:

Dosn't change a DAMN thing. These four are now MASS murders on a global scale. They have done what the Red Skull would LOVE to boast about.

So the Hulk committed genocide in World War Hulk?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

If I punch a friend and he flips out and kills ten people because of it, I'm supposed to be responsible for his actions because I set him off? I don't think so.

Batman isn't responsible for the crimes of criminals who killed to get his attention or who killed because he put them away either.

ZERO RESPONSIBILITY.

If the Hulk has killed, even for the grossest of betrayals, he deserves the full weight of that responsibility. If the Hulk can't control himself (which admitedly does seem intrinsic to the concept) then people on Marvel Earth should:

A) Be thankful he didn't let loose his rage here.

B) Put him down like a sick dog.

This is where the insanity defense is all wrong. Anyone who can't help their actions when human lives are on the line needs responsibility thrust upon them. An insane killer (ie. someone who cannot control their actions or who failed to distinguish between right and wrong, even momentarily) needs the death penalty. They are a liability to human society. You can't risk the same thing happening again because they get put on the wrong medication or forget their pills. A sane killer (someone who consciously did something wrong and recognizes it as such) can be rehabilitated.

Euthanize the sick. Correct the wrong.

Either way, if Hulk killed people -- even if only very recently for the first time -- NO ONE is responsible for his actions NO MATTER what they did to him. Not the friends who betrayed him. Not the father who abused him. He deserves a clean, efficient death.

[yo go re]

It isn't just Dan Slott who said it. Greg Pak and Peter David also subscribe to the line of thinking that Hulk's rampages don't kill people.

Why anyone wants to argue with the actual writers of Hulk's comics, I don't know.
Because it's borderline-idiotic wish fulfillment that doesn't stand up to a second's scrutiny? Because other Hulk writers have said he HAS killed people? Because there's this silly back-and-forth retcon war going on in the pages of Marvel Comics where people are trying to say that somehow a rampaging green engine of destruction can level buildings, but still has the presence of mind to make sure it only destroys the ones that have been "evacuated," wink-wink nudge-nudge?

So Dan Slott comes down on the side of the side of the non-killing Hulk. And? He's just one staffer among many, and not the final word on all things Hulk. Love the guy's writing, but that just seems silly to me. Like, "stick your fingers in your ears and hum while someone says something you don't like" silly. Going "la la la la, I can't hear you la la la la" doesn't change anything, even if it's a SHIELD agent who says it. Because next week another SHIELD agent in another book can say "oh, don't pay attention to Special Agent D. Lusional over there - Hulk's killed people here, here and here" and it's just as valid.

In Slott's defense, She-Hulk is a humor book - and the idea that the Hulk has never killed anyone is a pretty big joke. Or at least entirely laughable.

The Hulk isn't a hero. The Hulk is a monster. He's the villain in his own book - why else would Banner NOT want to transform into him? Hulk is a killer in the same way that a train crash is a killer - not maliciously, but as a side effect...

[Kevinroc]

Because it's borderline-idiotic wish fulfillment that doesn't stand up to a second's scrutiny? Because other Hulk writers have said he HAS killed people? Because there's this silly back-and-forth retcon war going on in the pages of Marvel Comics where people are trying to say that somehow a rampaging green engine of destruction can level buildings, but still has the presence of mind to make sure it only destroys the ones that have been "evacuated," wink-wink nudge-nudge?

So Dan Slott comes down on the side of the side of the non-killing Hulk. And? He's just one staffer among many, and not the final word on all things Hulk. Love the guy's writing, but that just seems silly to me. Like, "stick your fingers in your ears and hum while someone says something you don't like" silly. Going "la la la la, I can't hear you la la la la" doesn't change anything, even if it's a SHIELD agent who says it. Because next week another SHIELD agent in another book can say "oh, don't pay attention to Special Agent D. Lusional over there - Hulk's killed people here, here and here" and it's just as valid.

In Slott's defense, She-Hulk is a humor book - and the idea that the Hulk has never killed anyone is a pretty big joke. Or at least entirely laughable.

The Hulk isn't a hero. The Hulk is a monster. He's the villain in his own book - why else would Banner NOT want to transform into him? Hulk is a killer in the same way that a train crash is a killer - not maliciously, but as a side effect...

If your criteria is that people die because of the wholesale destructive nature of super hero comics, then every single super hero is responsible for innocent people getting killed.

Here's what Slott had to say.

http://www.aintitcool.com/?q=node/24120


Okay, here's the BIG thing. Comics aren't realistic. Sorry to break it to you. They're stories about CHARACTERS. And maintaining the INTEGRITY of those characters is, at times, more important than maintaining the reality of that world. If the Hulk takes an innocent life, you forever ruin the character of Bruce Banner- who he is and what he's about. If one innocent life is lost DUE to the Hulk�it IS his fault�and he needs to redeem himself. If two or three innocent people die and Banner does not take himself out�he is now a reckless killer, a person who knowingly is responsible for multiple counts of manslaughter�and he becomes TOTALLY irredeemable .

If you try to hold ALL comics up to reality they will ALL fall apart at some point.

Take Daredevil for instance. This is a man with NO superhuman strength. And yet we see him swing and bound from rooftop to rooftop. Well... Have you BEEN to New York? When you get to the end of a block, in order to cross an avenue you have to clear the lengths of two sidewalks and four lanes of traffic (sometimes six if there are bus lanes). That's impossible. There's no way around it. It can't be done. Seriously. Get your best Olympic athlete. Even with a running start, they're not going to clear the length of ONE sidewalk and one parked car, let alone two, three, or four. The idea that Daredevil can do that, or even swing across it, is ludicrous. What's he doing? Reaching the end of the block, climbing down the building, crossing the street, climbing up the next building, and resuming his bounding? No.

You know how he does it? He's a comic book character. And he's not in the real world. And, btw, the Hulk has never been responsible for the loss of innocent life. Suck it up.

[PatrickG]

So... To derail things a bit...

Isn't Ultimate Hulk a cannibal?

[Ian Boothby]

Because it's borderline-idiotic wish fulfillment that doesn't stand up to a second's scrutiny? Because other Hulk writers have said he HAS killed people? Because there's this silly back-and-forth retcon war going on in the pages of Marvel Comics where people are trying to say that somehow a rampaging green engine of destruction can level buildings, but still has the presence of mind to make sure it only destroys the ones that have been "evacuated," wink-wink nudge-nudge?


Yes, that's it exactly. In the same way that bad guys can come back from what are obviously their deaths over and over, in comics if you don't see someone killed then they weren't killed. No one was in the building.

If they were in the buildings when the Hulk brought them down then they were in them when the Thing did it. And Thor. And the Avengers. And when Namor invaded all those times he killed hundreds of thousands. Any superhero fight must leave dozens dead.

You cherry pick your realism as a writer in a fantasy genre. You suspend disbelief as a reader. It's what you need to do for any superhero story to work.

[PatrickG]

The problem with that, Ian, is that guys like Alan Moore decided to include a bit more realism, cherry pick a little less FOR EFFECT...

And guys like Warren Ellis and Mark Millar decided to work in a bit MORE.

And realism is like crack for people today.

Why else is non-fiction outselling fiction suddenly?

We have come to realize that the information we have of the real world is cherry-picked. And imagination is having trouble keeping pace with life in the ficto-real race.

I'm not so sure where the boundary between reality and fiction is, if there is one. And more people are in this boat every day.

So whereas I agree with your argument for why things would be a certain way, there are increasingly people who want a hit of reality in their comics.

So don't be too shocked when you see a super-hero's wife turn up dead on the honeymoon after a consummation gone wrong in a mainstream book or a super-hero dealing crystal meth in order to avoid having a day job so he can afford to devote more of his energies to crimefighting and buying the latest forensics equipment.

[Kevinroc]

Yes, that's it exactly. In the same way that bad guys can come back from what are obviously their deaths over and over, in comics if you don't see someone killed then they weren't killed. No one was in the building.

If they were in the buildings when the Hulk brought them down then they were in them when the Thing did it. And Thor. And the Avengers. And when Namor invaded all those times he killed hundreds of thousands. Any superhero fight must leave dozens dead.

You cherry pick your realism as a writer in a fantasy genre. You suspend disbelief as a reader. It's what you need to do for any superhero story to work.

And even if you had the double-standard to just limit this to the Hulk, any super hero that EVER helped Hulk escape from the authorities would be an accessory to Hulk's murderous rampages.

[Charles RB]

Right now, I see solicitations saying that several superheroes will be joining the Hulk. Joining the guy who's turning New York City into a battleground deliberately and attacking Earth with an alien army? Wow, you guys are dicks. I hope Iron Man punches you lot out too.


Second, which Hulk vs. X-Men story is that? Is this towards the end of PAD's run where Hulk was separated from Bruce Banner and was dying?

That's the one. Where they stated "we're not trying to kill you! We don't need to fight!" several times.

Thirdly, Hulk does not kill tons of people in his rampages. They hint at it but don't outright state it

They stated it in New Avengers: Illuminati, as I recall.

And I've personally got no problem with the Hulk killing accidentally because, well, big rampaging monster.

Fourthly, Hulk is not a dick. He saves the planet every now and then but the other people still hound him and try to destroy him.

I wonder if that's because he keeps rampaging and smashing things?

Isn't Ultimate Hulk a cannibal?

Yep.

[NickThompson]

Facts still remain simple. Tony(along with Reed and the others) did not want the Hulk around to interfere with them. They then concocted this entire scheme to send him into exile from Earth,hopefully forever. I still do not believe that the "warp drive" malfunctioned,but lets say it did. Millions of people still died from it. Accidental or on Purpose,they launced a WMD that caused a entire planets population to almost become extinct. And i am sure that Tony will just say "Whoops. My fault. We won't do that again!". :rolleyes:

Dosn't change a DAMN thing. These four are now MASS murders on a global scale. They have done what the Red Skull would LOVE to boast about.
Are the people who built space shuttles that blew up mass murderers?

[PatrickG]

I'm curious, Night Swordsman:

What makes you think Reed or Tony would engineer a warp drive to malfunction and kill millions?

[Ian Boothby]

The Illuminati murdered a whole mess of aliens which doesn't work for their characters either. At least their characters up until this point.

If the Hulk kills then the Marvel structure falls down.

It makes for a good shock value comic but in the long term it doesn't work. Because at some point the Hulk will be a good guy again and if he's a mass murderer then he can't be. And if he can't be then you're losing a big part of what makes the character work.

[jadrax]

I'm curious, Night Swordsman:

What makes you think Reed or Tony would engineer a warp drive to malfunction and kill millions?

They thought it would be an empty planet, the ship went of course.

[MartinRedmond]

I'd rather Marvel get a new Editor in Chief and they reboot every single book.

[MartinRedmond]

The problem with that, Ian, is that guys like Alan Moore decided to include a bit more realism, cherry pick a little less FOR EFFECT...

And guys like Warren Ellis and Mark Millar decided to work in a bit MORE.


They don't add realism. They add little "shocks" to get your attention because their books are boring, just like Paris Hilton or Courtney Love.

[Kevinroc]

Right now, I see solicitations saying that several superheroes will be joining the Hulk. Joining the guy who's turning New York City into a battleground deliberately and attacking Earth with an alien army? Wow, you guys are dicks. I hope Iron Man punches you lot out too.

Characters like Hercules, Angel and Namora?

That's the one. Where they stated "we're not trying to kill you! We don't need to fight!" several times.

At a time when he was separated from Banner and dying. Him being in a foul-mood was perfectly understandable.

They stated it in New Avengers: Illuminati, as I recall.

And I've personally got no problem with the Hulk killing accidentally because, well, big rampaging monster.

No, they didn't say it in the Illuminati one-shot. They sort of imply it but they never outright state "Hulk kills people." The entire conversation between the Illuminati was also full of exaggerations. Unless Dr. Strange (who is an older gentleman) magically knew the Hulk for his whole life.

I wonder if that's because he keeps rampaging and smashing things?

He was sure smashing a lot of things in the Alaskan wilderness.

[Night Swordsman]

I'm curious, Night Swordsman:

What makes you think Reed or Tony would engineer a warp drive to malfunction and kill millions?

I'm Curious PatrickG: What makes you think anything OTHER than a warp drive created by either or both of these people,and then USED by them,killed off most of the inhabintants of Skalar?

:rolleyes:

[Night Swordsman]

So the Hulk committed genocide in World War Hulk?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

If I punch a friend and he flips out and kills ten people because of it, I'm supposed to be responsible for his actions because I set him off? I don't think so.

Batman isn't responsible for the crimes of criminals who killed to get his attention or who killed because he put them away either.

ZERO RESPONSIBILITY.

If the Hulk has killed, even for the grossest of betrayals, he deserves the full weight of that responsibility. If the Hulk can't control himself (which admitedly does seem intrinsic to the concept) then people on Marvel Earth should:

A) Be thankful he didn't let loose his rage here.

B) Put him down like a sick dog.

This is where the insanity defense is all wrong. Anyone who can't help their actions when human lives are on the line needs responsibility thrust upon them. An insane killer (ie. someone who cannot control their actions or who failed to distinguish between right and wrong, even momentarily) needs the death penalty. They are a liability to human society. You can't risk the same thing happening again because they get put on the wrong medication or forget their pills. A sane killer (someone who consciously did something wrong and recognizes it as such) can be rehabilitated.

Euthanize the sick. Correct the wrong.

Either way, if Hulk killed people -- even if only very recently for the first time -- NO ONE is responsible for his actions NO MATTER what they did to him. Not the friends who betrayed him. Not the father who abused him. He deserves a clean, efficient death.

Your entire arguements are made based on simplifying the situation. We are not talking about punching someone and going ballistic. We are not talking about another superhero in another publishing line(and one i personally dislike as well). We are talking about four people by whose actions used a device to remove someone from their planet,and said deviced DESTROYED another planet,and millions of lives. It does NOT matter if it was on purpose or accidental,MILLIONS OF LIVES WERE DESTROYED. Do not use comparisons Use the facts on hand.
Your arguements do not hold weight in light of that.

[PatrickG]

I'm Curious PatrickG: What makes you think anything OTHER than a warp drive created by either or both of these people,and then USED by them,killed off most of the inhabintants of Skalar?

:rolleyes:

I'm just asking why you'd think it was intentional because you implied it?

[Night Swordsman]

I'm just asking why you'd think it was intentional because you implied it?

I also stated that from what i saw,a countdown,such as usually done on bombs,was counting down. I am also allowing the POSSIBILITY that it could of also been a countdown to a LAUNCH,and had not considered it. It can go either way.

[Larime]

I wasn't aware Hulk could have such eloquent conversations. I thought when Banner 'Hulked out' he turned into an instinctual, beastial monster.

News to me.

[Night Swordsman]

I wasn't aware Hulk could have such eloquent conversations. I thought when Banner 'Hulked out' he turned into an instinctual, beastial monster.

News to me.

The Hulk is a very strange case of MPD,with several versions inside Bruce's head. From the immoral Grey(Joe Fixit) Hulk to the Hulk Smash version to the near mindless Savage Hulk to the version created by Doc Samson as a amalgram of all the versions(and the one shown in the previous shown pages and seems to be the one being used in Planet Hulk,or a close facimile of it).

[Jack Zodiac]

I'd rather Marvel get a new Editor in Chief and they reboot every single book.

Fuck. Yeah.

[Kevinroc]

Gail weighed in.

http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/004724807.cfm


GAIL SIMONE (Birds of Prey writer): “Hulk would hit Iron Man in the head while Tony was selling crack to kids overseas and weeping over Cap’s boot. Then, Hulk would fold Iron Man up and place him neatly in a glove box.”
WINNER: HULK

[yo go re]

I've personally got no problem with the Hulk killing accidentally because, well, big rampaging monster.
Precisely. It doesn't bring in too much reality to say that massive property damage includes massive personal damage, no matter what Dan Slott (or you or me or anyone else) thinks. Yes, I'm sure Namor's army killed hundreds of people. I'm sure innocent bystanders have been hurt in superhero fights - hell, that was the whole point of Civil War, wasn't it? I'm sure that at least once, when Galactus came to Earth and set up his huge machines, someone was crushed beneath them.

If the Hulk kills then the Marvel structure falls down.
How do you figure? Hulk's different from Thing, from Thor, from all the other heroes mentioned in that they're, you know, heroes. They have higher cognitive function, and can recognize "civilians." Hulk doesn't. He's just anger, looking to lash out regardless of consequences. Hulk causing deaths* doesn't make the structure fall down - doesn't even put it in danger of falling down. Hell, it doesn't even give the structure a slight shimmy.

Do not use comparisons Use the facts on hand.
Your arguements do not hold weight in light of that.

Comparisons are how arguments are made - using them doesn't negate his point.

----------

*notice, that's "causing death," not "murder." An earthquake never murdered anyone, a bear never murdered anyone and I wouldn't say the Hulk has, either...

[Kevinroc]

How do you figure? Hulk's different from Thing, from Thor, from all the other heroes mentioned in that they're, you know, heroes. They have higher cognitive function, and can recognize "civilians." Hulk doesn't. He's just anger, looking to lash out regardless of consequences. Hulk causing deaths* doesn't make the structure fall down - doesn't even put it in danger of falling down. Hell, it doesn't even give the structure a slight shimmy.


Because it would make any hero that ever helped the Hulk escape from the authorities an accessory to his murderous rampages.

[Night Swordsman]

Comparisons are how arguments are made - using them doesn't negate his point.

----------

*notice, that's "causing death," not "murder." An earthquake never murdered anyone, a bear never murdered anyone and I wouldn't say the Hulk has, either...

His point and example had little to do with what had happened.

Pat hits someone,this someome kills 10 people because of this. It is not Pats fault.

Reed,Tony build a rocket,trick the Hulk into helping them with a 'problem',then pronounce sentence and exile him from earth with a dangerous technology. Then that technology malfunctions(and that is if we are going with the best possible reason,and NOT as a bomb),and causes the deaths of untold innocent beings. And It is not Reed and Tony's fault.

Bullshit.

[Jack Zodiac]

Once again, Marvel gives us a war where everyone's an asshole. The Hulk's a menace who may have killed lots of innocent people in his rampages and he's coming for Tony, Reed, and the rest of the horribly-dubbed "Illuminati." Flipside, Reed and Tony built an incredibly dangerous machine to hurl Hulk to a barren planet that has resulted in millions of deaths. It'd be unfair for anyone to say that Tony and Reed weren't looking after Earth's best interests by getting rid of Hulk, but it'd be equally unfair to say Hulk isn't justified in his attack against his former friends.

So... once again, we have to pick a side in an unfair situation. Which reckless assholes do we side with this time?

[yo go re]

Wow, just like real war.

His point and example had little to do with what had happened. ... [blah blah blah]
I don't disagree with you - the warp drive caused the problem, it's the fault of whoever built the warp drive. Hulk isn't the one who blew up his planet. I'm just saying that you can't ignore his arguments JUST because he made a comparison, because that's how arguments work.

Because it would make any hero that ever helped the Hulk escape from the authorities an accessory to his murderous rampages.
Yes, you said that before, but Hulk doesn't get a lot of help from heroes - usually he just smashes a tank or whatever and leaps away to Canada...

[Night Swordsman]

Once again, Marvel gives us a war where everyone's an asshole. The Hulk's a menace who may have killed lots of innocent people in his rampages and he's coming for Tony, Reed, and the rest of the horribly-dubbed "Illuminati." Flipside, Reed and Tony built an incredibly dangerous machine to hurl Hulk to a barren planet that has resulted in millions of deaths. It'd be unfair for anyone to say that Tony and Reed weren't looking after Earth's best interests by getting rid of Hulk, but it'd be equally unfair to say Hulk isn't justified in his attack against his former friends.

So... once again, we have to pick a side in an unfair situation. Which reckless assholes do we side with this time?

Oh thank god. SOMEONE got it.
Thank you Jack. Well Said. (And to be honest,i NEVER thought i would say that to you.:p ).

[Jack Zodiac]

Fuck you in the neck, pal.

Wow, just like real war.

Yeah, no, not really. Not every war is fought between two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other. And in almost all wars, it isn't just human beings against human beings, it's ideals against ideals. This war (moreso than Civil War) is just about two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other.

[Kevinroc]

Yes, you said that before, but Hulk doesn't get a lot of help from heroes - usually he just smashes a tank or whatever and leaps away to Canada...

Except for the time Thor transported Hulk to another world and then felt too guilty about leaving him there.

Or Spider-Man had him on the ropes and let him go.

Or Mr. Fantastic freed him during his trial.

Or Hawkeye stopped a man from killing Bruce Banner.

Or...

You see where I'm going with this?

[Night Swordsman]

Wow, just like real war.


I don't disagree with you - the warp drive caused the problem, it's the fault of whoever built the warp drive. Hulk isn't the one who blew up his planet. I'm just saying that you can't ignore his arguments JUST because he made a comparison, because that's how arguments work.


Yes, you said that before, but Hulk doesn't get a lot of help from heroes - usually he just smashes a tank or whatever and leaps away to Canada...

Jack pretty much stated what i wished to say about the real war comment.

I Disagree with your second comment. I stated his arguement and the situation with the Hulk side by side,no added commentary. Pat's "comparison" is NOT even in the same league with the "facts(this IS fiction,after all)" in this situation. Thus i can ignore it,for not having ANY bearing upon this case except to cause rationalization for the Pro-Tony side of this fight.

And as a life long Hulk reader and having purchased his comic(s) on a monthly basis and read each individual issue since 1974,i can say FOR a fact,that a LARGE array of super-heroes have helped the hulk out,including avoiding capture,many,MANY times in the past. Including Reed,Stephen,and Tony. To say he dosn't get alot of help dosn't mean he DOSN'T get help. Many comics will show otherwise.

[Ian Boothby]

Wow, just like real war.


I don't disagree with you - the warp drive caused the problem, it's the fault of whoever built the warp drive. Hulk isn't the one who blew up his planet. I'm just saying that you can't ignore his arguments JUST because he made a comparison, because that's how arguments work.


It's really a bad idea to let Reed Richards build your spaceship. Something always goes wrong.

[Night Swordsman]

Fuck you in the neck, pal.



Yeah, no, not really. Not every war is fought between two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other. And in almost all wars, it isn't just human beings against human beings, it's ideals against ideals. This war (moreso than Civil War) is just about two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other.


Aww Jack! Here,have a Choclately Chip Cookie!

And Once again,i agree with what you say! This is starting to scare me! :D

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, no, not really. Not every war is fought between two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other. And in almost all wars, it isn't just human beings against human beings, it's ideals against ideals. This war (moreso than Civil War) is just about two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other.

I saw a review which basically described WWH as a "villain vs. villain" story. But this story (more so than Civil War) has two different sides with completely understandable motivations. The Hulk wants to live. They don't want the Hulk to live because he's dangerous.

[Night Swordsman]

It's really a bad idea to let Reed Richards build your spaceship. Something always goes wrong.

<MEGA HUGE APPLAUSE>

OMG. I wished I said this! :rolleyes: :D

WTG.

[Night Swordsman]

I saw a review which basically described WWH as a "villain vs. villain" story. But this story (more so than Civil War) has two different sides with completely understandable motivations. The Hulk wants to live. They don't want the Hulk to live because he's dangerous.

Hmm. I disagree with this assessment.

The Hulk does not want to live. He IS Alive,and is angry and wants revenge on people who take away EVERY DAMN TIME his happiness. The Humans. From Jarella to Planet Hulk. Every time.

The other sides motivations lack something: They don't want the Hulk to live because he's dangerous and NOT UNDER THEIR CONTROL. :)

[Kevinroc]

Hmm. I disagree with this assessment.

The Hulk does not want to live. He IS Alive,and is angry and wants revenge on people who take away EVERY DAMN TIME his happiness. The Humans. From Jarella to Planet Hulk. Every time.

The other sides motivations lack something: They don't want the Hulk to live because he's dangerous and NOT UNDER THEIR CONTROL. :)

That was basically the message of the WWH prologue. Hulk hates them because he thinks they don't want him to live. They keep trying to kill him (as curing Banner would kill Hulk). They always lie to him, they always betray him and they always send him away. But he keeps coming back.

[yo go re]

yeah, if Hulk "just wanted to live," he'd be on the defense, not on the offensive.

Yeah, no, not really.
Well, yeah, really. The archduke of Austria getting assassinated isn't a good enough reason for the entire world to go to war unless a lot of people on both sides are joining just for fun. Even when war is being fought between ideals, it's very rarely between a good ideal and a bad ideal, but mostly just between two that are different.

This war (moreso than Civil War) is just about two bunches of assholes trying to out-asshole the other.
Point.

I stated his arguement and the situation with the Hulk side by side,no added commentary. Pat's "comparison" is NOT even in the same league with the "facts" in this situation.
It is possible to compare things that are on different scales.

Thus i can ignore it,for not having ANY bearing upon this case except to cause rationalization for the Pro-Tony side of this fight.
Okay, so he made a bad comparison and drew the wrong conclusions from it - you refute it, not ignore it. Saying "Do not use comparisons Use the facts on hand. Your arguements do not hold weight in light of that" doesn't point out why he's wrong, it just says "you can't use comparisons in an argument." Which is silly...

[Kevinroc]

yeah, if Hulk "just wanted to live," he'd be on the defense, not on the offensive.


I seem to recall a group of people exiling Hulk to deep space...

[PatrickG]

Casualties or not, the Hulk belongs in deep space.

Anger needs to be controlled or supressed. Big green monsters need to be kept in check.

I feel bad for Banner being attached to that big green monster but he's just not up to the task on controlling his rage.

My problem with the Hulk is my problem with a lot of misunderstood monsters, ranging from vampires to the orcs in the Warcraft games.

Being screwed does not entitle you to revenge or boundless pits of rage or sympathy. Sometimes you should learn to take the senseless abuse the world doles out on you and just friggin' get over it.

[Ian Boothby]

Casualties or not, the Hulk belongs in deep space.

Anger needs to be controlled or supressed. Big green monsters need to be kept in check.

I feel bad for Banner being attached to that big green monster but he's just not up to the task on controlling his rage.

My problem with the Hulk is my problem with a lot of misunderstood monsters, ranging from vampires to the orcs in the Warcraft games.

Being screwed does not entitle you to revenge or boundless pits of rage or sympathy. Sometimes you should learn to take the senseless abuse the world doles out on you and just friggin' get over it.


Then you've gotta send the Thing up to space. Hercules. Thor. Ghost Rider. Giant Man. Wolverine. Oh hell, pretty much every superhero. Fuel up the rocket.

[LordKaos]

Didn't Banner agree with them about the exile? If he did then what the Hulk wants doesn't matter. He's not the main personality.

[AllisterH]

1. Clay Quartermain said that "HE and his Shield team" have never lost a life when dealing with the Hulk. It is never stated about what happens when SHIELD doesn't appear and do clean up duty.

2. There was nothing wrong with the engines on the spaceship. I mean, it isn't like the HULK WAS POUNDING THE CRAP OUT OF THE SPACESHIP which caused it to crashland where it wasn't supposed to.

3. Hey, I mean, the Hulk could have gotten someone to check the engines afterward...oh, like say, the FREAKING 3RD SMARTEST MAN on the planet of Earth.

4. PAD is also the one who had the Hulk kill an innocent man.

[Ultraboytx]

also.. i seem to remember in Planet Hulk that while the ship was damaged, it was fine, until the giant bug guy (on hulk's team who happened to be extremely bitter at the hulk at the moment) and one other (don't remember which one) started fucking with it and it activated the message and sent the warp core into a downward spiral.

[Kevinroc]

1. Clay Quartermain said that "HE and his Shield team" have never lost a life when dealing with the Hulk. It is never stated about what happens when SHIELD doesn't appear and do clean up duty.

And Maria Hill, Tony Stark and the Illuminati don't say "The Hulk kills innocent people."

They hint at such but never actually say it.

2. There was nothing wrong with the engines on the spaceship. I mean, it isn't like the HULK WAS POUNDING THE CRAP OUT OF THE SPACESHIP which caused it to crashland where it wasn't supposed to.

"Dear Bruce, thank you for saving the world. We hate your anger management issues so we're sending you away."

3. Hey, I mean, the Hulk could have gotten someone to check the engines afterward...oh, like say, the FREAKING 3RD SMARTEST MAN on the planet of Earth.

Are you rating Bruce Banner as the 3rd smartest man? Because Banner had once threatened to repair the ship and take them to an uninhabited planet as The Illuminati intended.

4. PAD is also the one who had the Hulk kill an innocent man.

Who? I hope you don't mean one of the Leader's henchmen, because "innocent man" and "Leader's henchman" is a bit of a stretch.

While I'm on that subject, don't even think about Daniel Way's arc where, IIRC, Hulk kills an attempted rapist. That is definitely not an "innocent man"

[Jack Zodiac]

Casualties or not, the Hulk belongs in deep space.

And here's when I indirectly agree with Pat on the situation.

Wanna' know the honest truth? The Incredible Hulk has been a horrible, shitty title for years. It was nigh-unreadable for most of this decade. You'd figure, "Man, Bruce Jones, horror writer... he might make this book something special again!" I don't know if "total shit" is special. Even Peter David's triumphant return wasn't all that great, honestly, and I think it's because The Hulk, as a character, has no place in the Marvel Universe. Everything's been done with the character: everything from Frankenstein-like misunderstood monster to a Jekyll/Hyde allusion to an interesting study on multiple personality disorder, and of course, traditional superhero (hell, even traditional supervillain).

In a comic book world that's been growing increasingly realistic, The Hulk can't continue going on angry, mindless rampages without being held legally responsible for his crimes and punished by his peers. In a world with a Super Human Registration Act, The Hulk cannot exist, and that's the Marvel Universe today. If The Hulk returned to Earth and stayed there, his book would go back to just being a "misunderstood monster" title mixed with some "man on the run" themes for Bruce.

When Greg Pak sent him to space, to a world where The Hulk could tell Bruce Banner to shove it and he could cut loose and let his mindless anger take over for him, he did the greatest thing any writer's done for the character this millenium. New setting, new direction, and supporting cast. It was interesting and it was fun. I only wish that it had been longer, that we'd seen The Hulk as King of Sakaar, where he was accepted for what he was and even praised for it, and where he'd found the most control over his own anger. At least then, if they'd decided to go through with this ridiculous "war," the build-up and payoff would've been greater.

The way Marvel is now, The Hulk can only exist off-world, away from the rest of superhumanity. It's either that, or they put him down, which is what I think we'll eventually see.

[Night Swordsman]

And here's when I indirectly agree with Pat on the situation.

Wanna' know the honest truth? The Incredible Hulk has been a horrible, shitty title for years. It was nigh-unreadable for most of this decade. You'd figure, "Man, Bruce Jones, horror writer... he might make this book something special again!" I don't know if "total shit" is special. Even Peter David's triumphant return wasn't all that great, honestly, and I think it's because The Hulk, as a character, has no place in the Marvel Universe. Everything's been done with the character: everything from Frankenstein-like misunderstood monster to a Jekyll/Hyde allusion to an interesting study on multiple personality disorder, and of course, traditional superhero (hell, even traditional supervillain).

In a comic book world that's been growing increasingly realistic, The Hulk can't continue going on angry, mindless rampages without being held legally responsible for his crimes and punished by his peers. In a world with a Super Human Registration Act, The Hulk cannot exist, and that's the Marvel Universe today. If The Hulk returned to Earth and stayed there, his book would go back to just being a "misunderstood monster" title mixed with some "man on the run" themes for Bruce.

When Greg Pak sent him to space, to a world where The Hulk could tell Bruce Banner to shove it and he could cut loose and let his mindless anger take over for him, he did the greatest thing any writer's done for the character this millenium. New setting, new direction, and supporting cast. It was interesting and it was fun. I only wish that it had been longer, that we'd seen The Hulk as King of Sakaar, where he was accepted for what he was and even praised for it, and where he'd found the most control over his own anger. At least then, if they'd decided to go through with this ridiculous "war," the build-up and payoff would've been greater.

The way Marvel is now, The Hulk can only exist off-world, away from the rest of superhumanity. It's either that, or they put him down, which is what I think we'll eventually see.

The Hulk will outlive us all. Literally. :)

[mike627]

I hope Hulk not only beats Tony half to death but WWH leads to the fall of SHIELD and the INT.

[Night Swordsman]

I hope Hulk not only beats Tony half to death but WWH leads to the fall of SHIELD and the INT.

Considering that SHIELD is corrupt from the inside out,HYDRA and AIM are completely messed up,the Red Skull is having meetings with the Secretary of Defense with Dr. Faustus in tow,Arnim Zolo is reverse engineering Victor Von Doom's Technology,and there are NO CATS in the MARVEL universe(do NOT even bring up Tigra or Zabu),i am pretty cheesed off. :) On the bright side,i am going out for a cheeseburger,so it can not all be bad. :D