Bucky Barnes as the new Captain America

[Brad Barton]

I think we can all now see this as a REALLY strong possibility, if not a certainty. So, looking forward, can you realistically see Bucky carrying the mantle of Cap? Can you see him taking that leadership role in crisis situations, being a role-model for all Americans, and the moral beacon for all that is good in Marvel?
I don't think anyone any doubts that he has the training to pull it off, or that he could use the shield..but is he worthy?

I'm actually very excited to see if he is, personally. :D

[Captain Mobra]

Lol. "Is he worthy?" Of what? No matter what happens no one will accept him as an actual substitute for Captain America. Especially because anyone who reads Marvel even semi-regularly is certain Steve Rogers will be back in a year or less.

[Tim OSullivan]

Gree that it is a strong possibility, and I'd love to see it play out.

But I don't believe Bucky is up to carrying the mantle of Captain America.

His past as an assassin was by coercion, so that doesn't rule him out. But the end of Cap #26 certainly does.

If we are to have a Captain America that acts as judge, jury, and executioner, he's not really Captain America.

[Brad Barton]

Lol. "Is he worthy?" Of what? No matter what happens no one will accept him as an actual substitute for Captain America. Especially because anyone who reads Marvel even semi-regularly is certain Steve Rogers will be back in a year or less.

I dunno, it actually seems like this would be a really good place to let the Steve Rogers character rest for awhile. He's been active on and off for over 65 years, and frozen in ice or no, it tends to stretch the imagination that an 85-year old man can look, fight and act like a 30 year old forever...

But even more than that, this can give rise to a whole new era of Captain America. You could call it the post Civil-War era ;)

Then 10, 15 years down the road, when maybe the characters popularity or sales are flagging, then you have the mega-event "Captain America: The Return of Steve Rogers"

[Captain Mobra]

I'd love that barring the "Return" schlock. And I would happily eat my words if they didn't bring back Steve for a decade or more.

[Brad Barton]

Gree that it is a strong possibility, and I'd love to see it play out.

But I don't believe Bucky is up to carrying the mantle of Captain America.

His past as an assassin was by coercion, so that doesn't rule him out. But the end of Cap #26 certainly does.

If we are to have a Captain America that acts as judge, jury, and executioner, he's not really Captain America.

I'm not super versed in the Winter Soldier storyline, but I believe he was mind-controlled when he did all those things, so you can't really say it was "Bucky" doing those things.

The Bucky we now have is the same Bucky that was Cap's sidekick during the WWII/Hitler era, and we know that that Bucky was just as all-american and pure of heart as Cap himself.

[Chiasm]

If Steve Rogers was actually dead it would be the logical progression. But since Steve isn't dead it doesn't matter.

[Brad Barton]

If Steve Rogers was actually dead it would be the logical progression. But since Steve isn't dead it doesn't matter.

Hmmm, I thought the "denial" phase was already supposed to have passed? ;)

Some of you aren't realizing that Marvel are, in a way obligated to keep Steve dead for at least awhile, otherwise it completely negates the whole story-line, and I don't think that's their aim.

[jackolover]

I'm thinking Hawkeye would be more logical, though not better than Bucky. Bucky doesn't know any of these new heros, and the heros of today wouldn't trust Bucky. Even Bucky wants to keep the sacred Shield away from any prospective Caps that may come forward; so I'd think Bucky would take out the next guy who puts on Caps suit.

[Captain Mobra]

I'm thinking Hawkeye would be more logical, though not better than Bucky. Bucky doesn't know any of these new heros, and the heros of today wouldn't trust Bucky. Even Bucky wants to keep the sacred Shield away from any prospective Caps that may come forward; so I'd think Bucky would take out the next guy who puts on Caps suit.Lol. He's Bucky, he's a the boy sidekick of the Marvel Universe, everyone loves him. The problem wouldn't be getting respect, it'd be getting respect as the Man, not just Bucky.

[Jmacq1]

I think it's eventually a likely prospect. Brubaker said that Bucky "had a long way to go" before he'd be ready/worthy to be Cap, and I think that's the point of his current story arc.

Yeah, he's still in angry assassin mode at the moment, but if he can eventually overcome those urges and choose to be the kind of hero Steve was, he could very likely step into Captain America's boots and pull it off.

We've already seen glimmers of it, particularly in the "Winter Kills" one-shot. But make no mistake, Bucky wouldn't just be a clone of Steve Rogers in deed or outlook. He's not likely to step in and become the shining beacon of hope for the heroes of the MU that Steve was, even if he could be an effective leader. He'd be a new kind of Captain America, and yes, a darker Captain America. And I think it'd be very interesting to read if done well.

[XPac]

I don't think he could do it. The guys an assasin, and borderline nuts.

We've seen this with US Agent becoming Cap, and Azrael becoming Batman. It's okay in the short term, and perhaps even fun having a more agreesive Cap... but in the long run the very reasons Steve Rogers was Cap are the very reasons Bucky won't be.

He can be something else trying to represent Caps ideals in his own way... but he can't really be Captain America.

[tavella]

We've already seen glimmers of it, particularly in the "Winter Kills" one-shot. But make no mistake, Bucky wouldn't just be a clone of Steve Rogers in deed or outlook. He's not likely to step in and become the shining beacon of hope for the heroes of the MU that Steve was, even if he could be an effective leader. He'd be a new kind of Captain America, and yes, a darker Captain America. And I think it'd be very interesting to read if done well.

But that's exactly why I'd prefer they just not replace Steve Rogers at all. I like Bucky, I've got no problem with him trying to be a hero. I am not at all interested in seeing Cap's legacy smeared. The *point* of 616-Cap was that he wasn't dark or cool or edgy, that he didn't like to kill, that he took moral issues seriously, that he represented eternal values and not the crisis-spawned exigencies of the moment.

Marvel's decided that's not what they want to be, and now we have the shiny new ends-justify-the-means, killing is cool, 24-style universe. Whatever. Their properties, their rules. But at least by killing him off, Brubaker avoided having Cap remade in that image too. And putting Winter Soldier in a Captain America uniform isn't much better than putting Frank Castle in one.

Not that that will stop Marvel -- Civil War in the end was mostly about Ultimatizing 616-Marvel, and I'm sure that editorial licks their chops at dark angsty and a killer over square.

[Morw]

People tend to forgett that cap to killed, atleast in the 2 ww. He was an soldier and soldier do kill in a war. Having Bucky going threw the faces and finlay accept the fate. ( remeber rage is part of the healing process) and you will have a new cap, more suited for this world. And the best candiate for replacing cap. ANd the american comunity would aqccept hm as well.

[tavella]

People tend to forgett that cap to killed, atleast in the 2 ww. He was an soldier and soldier do kill in a war. Having Bucky going threw the faces and finlay accept the fate. ( remeber rage is part of the healing process) and you will have a new cap, more suited for this world. And the best candiate for replacing cap. ANd the american comunity would aqccept hm as well.

He killed, but he didn't enjoy it, and generally tried to avoid it post-war -- not to the irrational extents that DC heroes go to, but if he had another option he took it.

And the belief that he'd be "more suited to this world" is exactly *why* I don't want to see Cap replaced. Because it's an explicit rejection of Steve Rogers' beliefs and principles; it's one thing to kill the body, it's another thing to kill that spirit, and that's exactly what it would be. Taking the image and name and historical weight that was entirely his creation, and using it to obliterate what he was.

No thanks.

[jackolover]

I think it's eventually a likely prospect. Brubaker said that Bucky "had a long way to go" before he'd be ready/worthy to be Cap, and I think that's the point of his current story arc.

Yeah, he's still in angry assassin mode at the moment, but if he can eventually overcome those urges and choose to be the kind of hero Steve was, he could very likely step into Captain America's boots and pull it off.

We've already seen glimmers of it, particularly in the "Winter Kills" one-shot. But make no mistake, Bucky wouldn't just be a clone of Steve Rogers in deed or outlook. He's not likely to step in and become the shining beacon of hope for the heroes of the MU that Steve was, even if he could be an effective leader. He'd be a new kind of Captain America, and yes, a darker Captain America. And I think it'd be very interesting to read if done well.

I agree Jmacq. It does seem to lead from the start of Brubackers run, that he is setting-up Bucky to be the new Cap a long way down the track. A darker Cap as you state, who can exist in this throw-back to grimmer days, but in a world Steve Rogers can't exist right now.

[Brad Barton]

I agree Jmacq. It does seem to lead from the start of Brubackers run, that he is setting-up Bucky to be the new Cap a long way down the track. A darker Cap as you state, who can exist in this throw-back to grimmer days, but in a world Steve Rogers can't exist right now.

We have to remember that Bucky is essentially from the same era as Cap, and held most of Cap's beliefs and principles as his own...

I think if anyone can be Cap, it'll be Bucky. Like Cap, he's one of the old-guard. One of the few heroes that is genuinely from the golden-age, and had the chance to have those values and morals instilled in him.

And looking at the preview for CA #27, it seems like he's going to take that mantle much sooner than we think or Brubaker may have implied. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bucky in Caps uniform by years end...

[XPac]

We have to remember that Bucky is essentially from the same era as Cap, and held most of Cap's beliefs and principles as his own...

I think if anyone can be Cap, it'll be Bucky. Like Cap, he's one of the old-guard. One of the few heroes that is genuinely from the golden-age, and had the chance to have those values and morals instilled in him.

And looking at the preview for CA #27, it seems like he's going to take that mantle much sooner than we think or Brubaker may have implied. I wouldn't be surprised to see Bucky in Caps uniform by years end...

I don't see Bucky and Cap exactly having the same values.

Bucky was retconned to be an assasin afterall, even back then. They may have been around the same time period, but they obviously had different moral codes. I'd almost have an easier time seeing him take up the mantle of Punisher than Cap.

[Brad Barton]

I don't see Bucky and Cap exactly having the same values.

Bucky was retconned to be an assasin afterall, even back then. They may have been around the same time period, but they obviously had different moral codes. I'd almost have an easier time seeing him take up the mantle of Punisher than Cap.

yeah, I think Brubaker is hinting that Bucky wants to be worthy of replacing Cap, but he himself doesn't really believe he is. Of course all it takes for anyone to do anything, including be highly moral and altruistic, is to decide they want to do it, and do it.
And in Bucky's case it's even easier, because he has to do whatever the hell Bru tells him to...;)

And the Punisher analogy is a bit much, Bucky hasn't remotely sunk to that level yet.

[Chiasm]

Hmmm, I thought the "denial" phase was already supposed to have passed? ;)

Some of you aren't realizing that Marvel are, in a way obligated to keep Steve dead for at least awhile, otherwise it completely negates the whole story-line, and I don't think that's their aim.

A While = the current story arc which is supposed to run twelve issues or so.

I don't expect to see him back any time this year and maybe not even in 2008 since they may stretch the Capless arcs a while. But I have no doubt that the next man to be Captain America will be Steve Rogers.

[Brad Barton]

This was posted by Jmacq over on another Cap thread, but I believe bears repeating since it perfectly sums up the whole scenario..


Bucky becoming Captain America is a perfectly "logical progression of the story." That doesn't mean it will happen, but it is perfectly logical.

Let's look at the evidence shall we?

"Winter Soldier's so popular they couldn't change him to Captain America!" Really? How popular is he? Particularly outside of those reading Captain America on a regular basis? In other words, for the many Marvel readers that aren't he's probably not much more than a blip on the radar. At best for those people he's a curiosity, at worst he's a "Oh wow, they brought Bucky back. That's totally lame." Changing Bucky/Winter Soldier into Captain America isn't going to affect sales, because the people that are invested in the character are already reading about him. Bucky doesn't hold his own book, so for all intents and purposes "Captain America" is already his book, for the most part. Hence it would be perfectly logical to take a character that's already popular within the title and make him the new Captain America.

Bucky is Captain America's first partner, that alone makes him a logical successor. But to add to it, we have the aspect that Bucky is in many ways a "man out of time" in the same manner that Steve Rogers was when he first emerged from suspended animation. This provides a thematic continuity with many "classic" Cap stories while still being able to provide new angles (since it's a different character).

And last but not least, of all the characters in Cap's current supporting cast, Bucky has the most obvious "hero's journey" to make. He's still currently operating in the shadows, and very much acting on the "dark side" of things as an assassin and spy. Brubaker himself stated that Bucky "had a long way to go" before he'd be ready to take up the mantle. By eventually choosing to become a hero more like his mentor and brother-in-arms, Bucky can find a measure of redemption that he'd never gain by continuing to be the character that's running off to assassinate Tony Stark.

You know, the kind of character arc that a 9-part story could very well encompass.

So yeah, if you put a little thought into it, Bucky's a perfectly viable, logical candidate for taking up the mantle.

I took out the argumenative parts, but otherwise, very well put Jmacq. Kudos.

[jackolover]

Double post

[jackolover]

Double post

[jackolover]

I don't see Bucky and Cap exactly having the same values.

Bucky was retconned to be an assasin afterall, even back then. They may have been around the same time period, but they obviously had different moral codes. I'd almost have an easier time seeing him take up the mantle of Punisher than Cap.

No, I like that Buckys recent history was as an assassin, and that now he is going to be mixed up with the Red Skull, an old Golden-Age villian he can recognise. I would want to see a kind of soul smashing being done on Bucky. Maybe he is captured, The Skull tries to turn him back into the Winter Soldier and there is a fight. Bucky's heroism has to come to the fore, or he will be lost forever, and BINGO! One new Captain America, coming right up.

Edit: I just read Jmacq's off-thread post and have just one thing to add. For Brubaker to re-create Bucky to be recognised inter-company wide, Bru would have to put Bucky in a cross-over where everyone sees Buckys heroism, and, it's Captain America-like in the way he defeats the crisis. That needs to be done, so that people outside the core Cap book, see what a character Bucky is. And I can see it now, how it happens. (I don't want to say how, at this moment, because I want to see how Bru does it)

[Dusty.]

Ain't happenin'.

[Brad Barton]

Ain't happenin'.Eh, I guess it doesn't matter anymore anyways, Bucky had a very sudden reappearance in the Marvel U, so he's obviously a Skrull...

[cable guy]

Eh, I guess it doesn't matter anymore anyways, Bucky had a very sudden reappearance in the Marvel U, so he's obviously a Skrull...

That would really stink.

[Brandon McKinnis]

What we'll see with bucky I'd imagine is a Captain America that is much more similar to Ultimate Cap. Does he share caps ideals? Yeah they grew up together and were best friends however, Bucky or James, since he's a man now, will get his hands dirty if he needs to. As for he's leadership? I'm fairly certain he will be in league with Nick Fury against the Skrulls... Actually this means that we will probably be getting a more badass under the radar team of NA soon.

[Capt USA]

The Falcon is the best one to take on the mantle of captain america, he more closely shares Steves moral code than either Bucky or Sharon (the only other two likely replacements) Sure the Falcons code is more grounded than Steve, but it's still there.

Eventually Cap will come back(and by cap I mean 616 Steve Rogers not Millars Ultimate facist) but someone will have the uniform before he comes back, I'm sure Brubaker is setting Bucky up to be the guy but Sam is a more logical choice (only drawback is that Sam really doesn't want to be national which is what Cap should be) I'm hoping that Winter Soldier sticks around long enough to have a marvel legends toy made out of him though. (they are making a bucky but unfortunately not an alternate Winter Soldier)

[jackolover]

The Falcon is the best one to take on the mantle of captain america, he more closely shares Steves moral code than either Bucky or Sharon (the only other two likely replacements) Sure the Falcons code is more grounded than Steve, but it's still there.

Eventually Cap will come back(and by cap I mean 616 Steve Rogers not Millars Ultimate facist) but someone will have the uniform before he comes back, I'm sure Brubaker is setting Bucky up to be the guy but Sam is a more logical choice (only drawback is that Sam really doesn't want to be national which is what Cap should be) I'm hoping that Winter Soldier sticks around long enough to have a marvel legends toy made out of him though. (they are making a bucky but unfortunately not an alternate Winter Soldier)

Wouldn't it be sweet to have the 3 of them in the uniform - Sharon, Bucky and the Falcon as the Team America? Bucky with the shield, Sharon as the backup, and Falcon as the heavy hand. I think it would make a pretty solid unit. Sharon has no need of the skin tight outfit anymore, now that she's disenchanted with Shield. Falcon would have trouble going to the red, white, and blue, though. Winter Soldier will be the hardest to get into the suit, and he has no experience with the Shield. Unless they invite Hawkeye in as a fourth member? He can throw it okay. But Bucky would have to recognise a need for a Captain America Squad, for any of this to happen. The Squad could function with Hawleye as leader, I know, but it wouldn't even be considered if it didn't have Buckys approval, and Bucky has this aura and determination that reanimates the Captain America Spirit, so he would have to be the focal point. Just like the Kennedys, when John and Boddy got killed. Eddy was the focus, because he carried the legacy.

[Bryson the Red]

Wouldn't it be sweet to have the 3 of them in the uniform - Sharon, Bucky and the Falcon as the Team America?

$*@& yeah.

Freedom costs a buck'o'five.

[wulfstone]

Bucky as Captain America?
Probably work as well as Azrael as Batman

[hysang]

...if only because I know, for all their denials, no one, and I mean NO ONE stays dead in comics.

Even if it takes 20 years, Steve Rogers will be back.

Bucky would just be keeping his chair warm. :D

[Brad Barton]

Bucky as Captain America?
Probably work as well as Azrael as BatmanNah, I think he'd do a lot better, and here's why:

First of all Bruce Wayne was still alive, Steve Rogers is dead, which makes the likelihood of Steve Rogers doing what Bruce did and taking back the mantle of Cap....well, impossible.

Secondly, Bucky is not a killer. He has killed, yes, and he probably will kill again if he has no other choice, but that doesn't make him a killer. Even Steve Rogers killed when he knew there was no other choice. (Baron Blood, anyone?)

Plus, Bucky loved Steve Rogers like a brother, do you really think if he decided to take over Steve Rogers' legacy as Captain America that he would turn Cap into a Punisher-esque vigilante? I don't.

I think if Bucky decides to step up and take the Shield, he will do it completely sanctioned bu the U.S. Government, as Steve did for so long. Somethings coming that's going to nix all this "SHIELD and Tony Stark rule the world" business, and it would be cool to see Bucky play a part in re-legitemizing Super-heroes in a non-registered world.

I have faith that he could be a great Captain America. One who holds the ideals of the old but incorporates the edginess and relevance of a newer character. I just wonder why almost no one else thinks that...

[wulfstone]

I don't just mean Azrael taking over I mean the whole concept of replacing an old hero with a new hero one that is "edgy and relevant" now but will be dated
in a few years.

[Brad Barton]

I don't just mean Azrael taking over I mean the whole concept of replacing an old hero with a new hero one that is "edgy and relevant" now but will be dated
in a few years.Well, I don't mean to say that only a new character can be "edgy and relevant", because a character like Steve Rogers has a timelessness that makes him relevant no matter what year he's in.

I don't know how to explain my thoughts on this....it's like Nightwing becoming Batman, there are arguments for and against it, but in the end everyone pretty much knows Nightwing could easily pull it off. Everyone pretty much knows Bucky could probably pull off being Cap. It comes down to whether or not he "should", an argument made moot when you consider it doesn't matter whether Bucky should or shouldn't, because if he doesn't, there will be no more Captain America.

Isn't it better to have a new Captain America than no Captain America? Or some Jarhead that Stark chooses to wear the uniform that's a soulless, subservient soldier? (say that 3 times fast)

So I guess the question becomes: Unless they have something up their sleeve to bring back Steve Rogers relatively soon, who besides Bucky could and would become Cap? Are there realistically any better or more logical contenders than Bucky?

[jackolover]

Everyone pretty much knows Bucky could probably pull off being Cap. It comes down to whether or not he "should", an argument made moot when you consider it doesn't matter whether Bucky should or shouldn't, because if he doesn't, there will be no more Captain America.

That assumes, already, that nobody could take over the mantle of Cap






So I guess the question becomes: Unless they have something up their sleeve to bring back Steve Rogers relatively soon, who besides Bucky could and would become Cap? Are there realistically any better or more logical contenders than Bucky?

Not seeing it. You need someone with the confidence and bullheadedness to take on anything, or anybody that invades the earth, and not die, and be a supreme strategist. Cap could survive anything, and he would have the CW too, if they hadn't broken him. Any new guy has to have these qualities, and I don't see this guy on the horizon.

[wulfstone]

No one can replace Steve Rogers sure there maybe people out there with the neccesary physical attributes but that is not what made Captain America
Bucky is probably gonna get the job and he is the best of the candidates i just don't see Cap as some jack bauer-lite

[Brad Barton]

Cap could survive anything, and he would have the CW too, if they hadn't broken him.I was reading in some recent issue, for the life of me I can't remember which one, that Cap had power inhibitors on when he was going up those courthouse steps...and that even with that, he managed the strength to push that guy out of the way...he was a hero to the very end. So i don't think they "broke" him, I think a very well layed plan by the Red Skull came to fruition.

What issue were they saying Cap had power inhibitors on was it? Was it New Avengers #31? It might've been the preview for Cap #27...

[jackolover]

I was reading in some recent issue, for the life of me I can't remember which one, that Cap had power inhibitors on when he was going up those courthouse steps...and that even with that, he managed the strength to push that guy out of the way...he was a hero to the very end. So i don't think they "broke" him, I think a very well layed plan by the Red Skull came to fruition.

What issue were they saying Cap had power inhibitors on was it? Was it New Avengers #31? It might've been the preview for Cap #27...

Yeah, I think you're right about power inhibitors and if it's not in Cap #25, then I don't know where. That's just so lame to power inhibit Cap when he wasn't going to break free and escape, but still put him in a vulnerable position for any assassination attempt. Boy, none of the Renegades are going to trust the Government or shield to arrest them. They'd rather die first, because anybody that has gone to court has died.

[Brandon McKinnis]

I was reading in some recent issue, for the life of me I can't remember which one, that Cap had power inhibitors on when he was going up those courthouse steps...and that even with that, he managed the strength to push that guy out of the way...he was a hero to the very end. So i don't think they "broke" him, I think a very well layed plan by the Red Skull came to fruition.

What issue were they saying Cap had power inhibitors on was it? Was it New Avengers #31? It might've been the preview for Cap #27...


I think it was cap #26.

[Brad Barton]

I think it was cap #26.Are you sure, I could've sworn it was Spidey who was saying it...he wasn't in Cap #26 was he?

[leeisl]

Are you sure, I could've sworn it was Spidey who was saying it...he wasn't in Cap #26 was he?

Yes he was, in "The Secret Wake" section with the NA.

[Brad Barton]

Yes he was, in "The Secret Wake" section with the NA.Oh right, right, right...the one falcon showed up to after Cap's actual wake.

Yeah, there you go, it was in Cap #26, he did have power dampeners on, and Cap doesn't have off-the-charts power to begin with...

[Firemane]

If there HAS to be a replacement for the original then Bucky has to be it. They are both soldiers out of their element and while some may argue that their morals are different they were raised in the same era and would share some of the same ideas.Bucky as the New Captain America isnt the ideal Captian America but I believe he might be the more realistic. I think with Bucky they can address the darker elements of war without having to retcon Steve Rogers into something he was never meant to be.

[static]

Bucky replacing Cap isnt like Azreal replacing batman...its like Dick Grayson (Robin) replacing Batman..which if Batman were really to "die" then i think most people would think was the natural idea.
I hate the fact that Steve Rogers is dead...but if anyone puts the stars and stripes on it MUST be James Buchanan Barnes...and NO he wont work for the Govt...i think bucky is a little too reticent to be a tool of any govt after his exps....now he has the shield...but will he use it in battle? if so then guess what ...your captain america buddy! i dont care if you dont have the "A" on your forehead...the minute he slings that shield at the red skull its on! call yourself whatever you want you picked up the mantle when you picked up the shield....

[Brad Barton]

Bucky replacing Cap isnt like Azreal replacing batman...its like Dick Grayson (Robin) replacing Batman..which if Batman were really to "die" then i think most people would think was the natural idea.
I hate the fact that Steve Rogers is dead...but if anyone puts the stars and stripes on it MUST be James Buchanan Barnes...Exactly my thoughts. People call into question his worthiness, but who in the Marvel Universe is more worthy to wear Steve Rogers uniform than his best friend and partner dating back 65 years?

[EnDwiGast]

Hmmm, I thought the "denial" phase was already supposed to have passed? ;)

Some of you aren't realizing that Marvel are, in a way obligated to keep Steve dead for at least awhile, otherwise it completely negates the whole story-line, and I don't think that's their aim.


I agree. Brubaker has stated he has captain America mapped out until issue #50. Thats when Steve Rogers will be back.

Both sides can make a case for "denial." :)

[EnDwiGast]

The Falcon is the best one to take on the mantle of captain america, he more closely shares Steves moral code than either Bucky or Sharon (the only other two likely replacements) Sure the Falcons code is more grounded than Steve, but it's still there.

Eventually Cap will come back(and by cap I mean 616 Steve Rogers not Millars Ultimate facist) but someone will have the uniform before he comes back, I'm sure Brubaker is setting Bucky up to be the guy but Sam is a more logical choice (only drawback is that Sam really doesn't want to be national which is what Cap should be) I'm hoping that Winter Soldier sticks around long enough to have a marvel legends toy made out of him though. (they are making a bucky but unfortunately not an alternate Winter Soldier)

I disagree strongly.

What I would like to see is the character of Sam Wilson as the Falcon elevated.

For him to become the new captain America would be the failure for him to be able to carve out his own identity.

I agree that Sam doesn't want to be national. That he has a different focus...more along the lines of Daredevil, Spider-man, Luke Cage & Iron Fist.

Thats why it would seem less logical for me to see him temporarily assume the role.

It would make more sense to see someone new fill the role. That way, though there would still technically be a "Captain America" in the book - it could still focus on Falcon, Sharon Carter and Winter soldier until Steve Rogers returns.

[Brad Barton]

It would make more sense to see someone new fill the role. That way, though there would still technically be a "Captain America" in the book - it could still focus on Falcon, Sharon Carter and Winter soldier until Steve Rogers returns.I honestly hope he doesn't return for years to come. It would give his death little to no effect if they revived him in 6 months or a year...

[EnDwiGast]

I honestly hope he doesn't return for years to come. It would give his death little to no effect if they revived him in 6 months or a year...

I respect your opinion/wishes on this.

However to me, Steve Rogers/Captain America has consistently been my favorite character.

It is pointless to me for there to be a Captain America or a Captain America title without him, because he is a unique character in the comics world or even the world of fiction. You can't replace him over any length of time any more than you could Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker.

If the death of Captain America storyline doesn't serve to somehow elevate Steve Rogers/Captain America's current relevance - then it was a pointless event.

I would rather see Captain America's death be cheapened than see Captain America cheapened.

A two year absence (#26 - 49) seems like a good compromise between several years and right away. Long enough for it to be a meaningful absence.

[Brad Barton]

I respect your opinion/wishes on this.

However to me, Steve Rogers/Captain America has consistently been my favorite character.

It is pointless to me for there to be a Captain America or a Captain America title without him, because he is a unique character in the comics world or even the world of fiction. You can't replace him over any length of time any more than you could Clark Kent, Bruce Wayne, or Peter Parker.

If the death of Captain America storyline doesn't serve to somehow elevate Steve Rogers/Captain America's current relevance - then it was a pointless event.

I would rather see Captain America's death be cheapened than see Captain America cheapened.

A two year absence (#26 - 49) seems like a good compromise between several years and right away. Long enough for it to be a meaningful absence.Yeah, I see where you're coming from here, but I've never been a huge Rogers fan, and always found him to be a little generic and bland. He's Marvel's boyscout, just as Supes is DC's boyscout...and say what you will about boyscouts --they're good role-models, trustworthy, inspiring, etc. -- but they're as boring as dry toast.

the fact that Bucky has a bit of gruffness to him is a plus, in my book, and it brings new dimensions to a character that never previously had those dimensions, while hopefully keeping true to the spirit of Cap.

[EnDwiGast]

Yeah, I see where you're coming from here, but I've never been a huge Rogers fan, and always found him to be a little generic and bland. He's Marvel's boyscout, just as Supes is DC's boyscout...and say what you will about boyscouts --they're good role-models, trustworthy, inspiring, etc. -- but they're as boring as dry toast.

the fact that Bucky has a bit of gruffness to him is a plus, in my book, and it brings new dimensions to a character that never previously had those dimensions, while hopefully keeping true to the spirit of Cap.

What I see in Steve Rogers is that he is iconic. A truly impossible standard to reach, but one you nevertheless become a better person trying to emulate. The one person that every other hero measured themselves against. To me that is Captain America.

I have really enjoyed the return of Winter Soldier. I would not rule out his becoming Captain America someday - but at this point, I think you carry the shield and don the uniform once you've proven yourself worthy. Not the other way around. Otherwise, you are just someone wearing a Captain America uniform and using his name - something we've already seen in the USAgent saga. (Another character i really like)

Who doesn't have gruffiness these days? I can pretty much grab any title off the rack and find that. What i can't find is someone like Steve Rogers/Captain America.

Now to some that might be a good thing. Maybe others simply hope that their issue(s) of Captain America #25 will keep increasing in value.

I have faith in Brubaker, but admittedly, Cap is no longer my #1 title and has actually dropped out of the top 10. Maybe my loss is the gain of a large number of readers. But this is just me saying my piece.

[Brad Barton]

I have really enjoyed the return of Winter Soldier. I would not rule out his becoming Captain America someday - but at this point, I think you carry the shield and don the uniform once you've proven yourself worthy. Not the other way around. Otherwise, you are just someone wearing a Captain America uniform and using his name - something we've already seen in the USAgent saga. (Another character i really like) Yeah, I've always maintained that Bucky was going to have to earn it, I didn't want him wearing the costume by Issue #26 or anything, because that would have seemed undeserved and forced.

He still has a "Hero's journey" to embark on, but I'm looking at the excitement and adventure that those stories will generate, whilst most others are just sitting there with their eyes shut tight, arms crossed, stamping their feet going "Bucky can't do it!! Give it up! Steve or no one!! LalalAlALALAlalalLALALALaaa...."


Who doesn't have gruffiness these days? I can pretty much grab any title off the rack and find that. What i can't find is someone like Steve Rogers/Captain America. How about Justice, Reed Richards, Ben Grimm, Colossus, Thor, Tony Stark (he's on a bit of a power trip lately, but he's not really "gruff") and plenty of others? The chivalrous personality isn't dead in the Marvel U yet, and Steve wasn't the only one left who had it...

[EnDwiGast]

Yeah, I've always maintained that Bucky was going to have to earn it, I didn't want him wearing the costume by Issue #26 or anything, because that would have seemed undeserved and forced.

He still has a "Hero's journey" to embark on, but I'm looking at the excitement and adventure that those stories will generate, whilst most others are just sitting there with their eyes shut tight, arms crossed, stamping their feet going "Bucky can't do it!! Give it up! Steve or no one!! LalalAlALALAlalalLALALALaaa...."

How about Justice, Reed Richards, Ben Grimm, Colossus, Thor, Tony Stark (he's on a bit of a power trip lately, but he's not really "gruff") and plenty of others? The chivalrous personality isn't dead in the Marvel U yet, and Steve wasn't the only one left who had it...

I would support a new title (not called Captain America) featuring Bucky and his road to claiming the mantle. After several years of that -- growing as an individual, and increasing his stature within the marvel U, I could appreciate him taking up the role. Unfortunately, writers tend to come up with one heroic moment and try forcefeed a reaction from the audience.

For this to come off naturally, it would take years for someone to naturally grow into the role. Not in WW2, but there was no existing legacy then. And with most Cap fill-ins - the public and fellow heroes were unaware a substitution had taken place.

You gave some excellent examples. Justice doesn't have his own title. Reed and Ben have suffered some questionable characterization. (Though I think gruff would apply to Ben Grimm) Who knows what kind of Thor we will be getting.

I'm a big fan of Tony Stark but his boozing and womanizing (though fun) put him in a different category.

if the Colossus we are seeing got his own title, that would fit the bill.

it just seems that comics-wide the list of classic heroes is shrinking. i think its okay as far as creating variety goes - but if you switch from all of one to all of another, variety isn't being created.

Plus i really was enjoying Bru's take on Steve (as well as a lot of other people)and was really looking forward (and still am) to seeing that continue and evolve.

[jackolover]

What I see in Steve Rogers is that he is iconic. A truly impossible standard to reach, but one you nevertheless become a better person trying to emulate. The one person that every other hero measured themselves against. To me that is Captain America.

Yes, Cap was bland, and we only missed him because he was killed. But he was killed off for a reason. I don't think the old norms regarding Steve Rogers beneficial qualities of being iconic hold up any more. He was regarded as out of time; irrelevant, in the end. I don't think he was that highly regarded as an icon, except by Peter Parker and Humbug. Everybody else just played follow the leader with Steve.

Maybe he is just better off dead. Steve Rogers wouldn't want to be in a world that rejected him, and all he stands for. Obviously, all he stands for is not what the MU public stand for, anymore.

[jackolover]

I would support a new title (not called Captain America) featuring Bucky and his road to claiming the mantle. After several years of that -- growing as an individual, and increasing his stature within the marvel U, I could appreciate him taking up the role. Unfortunately, writers tend to come up with one heroic moment and try forcefeed a reaction from the audience.

My take on Bucky has US not realising what Bucky is capable of; and a story making those qualities expressed. Right now, the Winter Soldier is a mystery. We've seen his clandestine side, but we have also glimpsed the side that is morbid and distrusting. Bucky wants to do things his way, but right now he's linked to Fury by an unbilical cord, and he can't escape it, because he, himself, attached it.

Once we see Bucky come out into the light, and meet the Tony Starks of this world, on even ground, then we may see the expression of Bucky Barnes of the 21st Century.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Yes, Cap was bland, and we only missed him because he was killed. But he was killed off for a reason. I don't think the old norms regarding Steve Rogers beneficial qualities of being iconic hold up any more. He was regarded as out of time; irrelevant, in the end. I don't think he was that highly regarded as an icon, except by Peter Parker and Humbug. Everybody else just played follow the leader with Steve.


Just because YOU felt that way, doesn't mean that's completely true, or that everyone agrees with you.

For I one thought Steve was very three-dimensional, and I cared even when he was alive. The screw-ups and bad state the Marvel Universe is in expressed how much someone like Steve is needed, and the heroes know that, as well as the majority of the citizens.

What they don't understand is that the qualities Steve had really are irreplacable, and as things get worse and worse, they'll understand that.

Yes, Steve is HIGHLY regarded as an icon in the Marvel universe, and the person who admired him the most is somebody you probably aren't expecting: Tony Stark. Another: Hank Pym. And there are more.



Maybe he is just better off dead. Steve Rogers wouldn't want to be in a world that rejected him, and all he stands for. Obviously, all he stands for is not what the MU public stand for, anymore.

Once again, just because you believe so, doesn't mean it's true.

And again, as things get worse and worse, the Marvel Universe will truly understand that the values that Steve Rogers, not Captain America, held are truly important, relevant, and needed.

[EnDwiGast]

Yes, Cap was bland, and we only missed him because he was killed. But he was killed off for a reason. I don't think the old norms regarding Steve Rogers beneficial qualities of being iconic hold up any more. He was regarded as out of time; irrelevant, in the end. I don't think he was that highly regarded as an icon, except by Peter Parker and Humbug. Everybody else just played follow the leader with Steve.

Maybe he is just better off dead. Steve Rogers wouldn't want to be in a world that rejected him, and all he stands for. Obviously, all he stands for is not what the MU public stand for, anymore.


I have to agree with what Kid kamikaze said.

"we" is inaccurate.

Steve was actually the most frequently used marvel character, ahead of Spider-man and Wolverine.

He might be better off dead, but the world isn't.

What I see this as is another piece of evidence in the trend to no longer push yourself to be the best you can be. Maybe his replacement should be someone like a Paris Hilton. Maybe that is a better fit for the times.

If all he stands for is not what the MU stands for - then its the MU public that has dropped its standards to the lowest common denominator and celebrates their mutual failure instead of fighting for a better future.

We need Steve Rogers/Captain America more than ever. Someone who doesn't give up and give in, believes in something, and actually does something about it instead of settling for the "excitement" of mediocrity.

[jackolover]

The screw-ups and bad state the Marvel Universe is in expressed how much someone like Steve is needed, and the heroes know that, as well as the majority of the citizens.

What they don't understand is that the qualities Steve had really are irreplacable, and as things get worse and worse, they'll understand that.

I'm not sure that is the case. Take Fallen Son for instance. It appears to be unaccoun ted by the vast majority, except for the heros involved. (That may be re-addressed in Fallen Son #4, I don't know). But right now, nobody seems all that fussed about Caps moral stances, while Initiative is a dummy for them to suck on, no matter what you think the majority is thinking.







And again, as things get worse and worse, the Marvel Universe will truly understand that the values that Steve Rogers, not Captain America, held are truly important, relevant, and needed.

Heres hoping, Kid Kamikaze. I wonder if it will really matter, though, now that Steve is dead. What does a death do to those that are left behind? Do they lament at the error of their ways? Do they try and resurrect Steve Rogers? Do they try and live the qualities that made Cap the legend? I think they will suffer for the way they treated their icon, and watched as they led him away in power saping restraints. Iron Man Caps greatest admirer? Would Caps friend treat him like an outcast, merely to prove Tony is right and Steve is wrong? There's your answer right there.

[jackolover]

I have to agree with what Kid kamikaze said.

"we" is inaccurate.

Steve was actually the most frequently used marvel character, ahead of Spider-man and Wolverine.

He might be better off dead, but the world isn't.

What I see this as is another piece of evidence in the trend to no longer push yourself to be the best you can be. Maybe his replacement should be someone like a Paris Hilton. Maybe that is a better fit for the times.

If all he stands for is not what the MU stands for - then its the MU public that has dropped its standards to the lowest common denominator and celebrates their mutual failure instead of fighting for a better future.

We need Steve Rogers/Captain America more than ever. Someone who doesn't give up and give in, believes in something, and actually does something about it instead of settling for the "excitement" of mediocrity.

I agree with both you and Kid. Lowest common denominator, and Paris Hilton remind me of the old ancient Roman Empire, where everyone went around in togas and nobody stood up for anyone, anymore. They just closed their doors, and waited for the Pretorian Guard to come and slaughter them, at the behest of one of their jealous neighbours.

What would it take for the MU citizenry to say enoughs enough?

[Brad Barton]

What would it take for the MU citizenry to say enoughs enough?What would it take to get back to a Marvel Universe that was primarily about the Heroes and not the ficticious citizenry?

Seriously, people worry waaaaaay too much about what the ficitonal civilians of Marvel think these days. If it's relevant to the story, that's fine, but don't start editing or altering stories to fit around the civilians...

Which is why the argument "Bucky could never be Cap because Marvels citizens wouldn't see him that way" sort of goes out the window, the citizens see whatever the writers want them to see, end of subject.

[EnDwiGast]

Which is why the argument "Bucky could never be Cap because Marvels citizens wouldn't see him that way" sort of goes out the window, the citizens see whatever the writers want them to see, end of subject.

I don't really buy into the Marvel citizenry argument either.

However, the superhero peer argument is another thing entirely.

Captain America arriving on the scene would suddenly, jarringly become insignificant.

[Brad Barton]

I don't really buy into the Marvel citizenry argument either.

However, the superhero peer argument is another thing entirely.

Captain America arriving on the scene would suddenly, jarringly become insignificant.Actually, if you want to know the truth, I'm not sure there's one hero who knows Bucky Barnes who doesn't like him. We've seen him ally himself with both Falcon and Wolverine, and though he and Falcon got off to a rocky start, they grew to respect one another, just as he and Logan seemed to share a mutual respect.

In every legendary, iconic pic of Cap that every Hero in the Marvel U grew up admiring, Bucky was always right there by his side-- He's a legend in his own right.

Question: How ignorant are the Marvel U heroes to Bucky's "situation" with Winter Soldier? Is his time in stasis and as an assassin common knowledge?

[jackolover]

Seriously, people worry waaaaaay too much about what the ficitonal civilians of Marvel think these days. If it's relevant to the story, that's fine, but don't start editing or altering stories to fit around the civilians...

Which is why the argument "Bucky could never be Cap because Marvels citizens wouldn't see him that way" sort of goes out the window, the citizens see whatever the writers want them to see, end of subject.

I see the the Marvel citizenry as the main player here. If it wasn't for them bellyaching about Stamford, the government wouldn't have run for the senate to pass the SHRA, and no CW would have started, and Cap wouldn't have been arrested, and end up dead. That's how significant I see the MU citizens. They are a bunch of dicks and the sooner their priorities change, the better. If the writers, as you say, make the citizens see whatever the writers want them, then obviously the writers are making the citizens the big driving force of CW, causing a dead Cap.

[jackolover]

Question: How ignorant are the Marvel U heroes to Bucky's "situation" with Winter Soldier? Is his time in stasis and as an assassin common knowledge?

Hell, apart from Fury and Dum Dum, nobody knew Winter Soldier existed, before CW.

However, once the war started, Namor, the Young Avengers and all Caps supporting cast knows who he is. It may slowly filter into the community, that Caps old sidekick is reportedly alive, but wholesale exposure? I think he has not.

[jackolover]

However, the superhero peer argument is another thing entirely.

Captain America arriving on the scene would suddenly, jarringly become insignificant.

There is that fatality about the removal of Cap. Though we all liked him, I think we took him for granted. I can see all these situations where Cap would react a different way to say Ms. Marvel, or Tony, or Luke Cage. But maybe we've been conditioned to how the writers have used him up to now, and we haven't used our imaginations to another use for Cap. Breaking open the package that was the SteveRogers/Captain America, may get us to look outside the box at an alternative Cap.

That's why I can see Bucky as a replacement for Cap. Bucky has been through the ringer; he knows Caps methods, being his sidekick, and coming together, that one more time in London, brought it all back again; then there's the clean-cut boy that Bucky was, before he became a superhero. You put this into a package, and you have a fair semblance of a Cap, but from a different perspective. I wager that Bucky didn't see eye -to-eye with all Caps decisions, so Bucky would bring something else to the table, that we haven't seen before.

[EnDwiGast]

Actually, if you want to know the truth, I'm not sure there's one hero who knows Bucky Barnes who doesn't like him. We've seen him ally himself with both Falcon and Wolverine, and though he and Falcon got off to a rocky start, they grew to respect one another, just as he and Logan seemed to share a mutual respect.

In every legendary, iconic pic of Cap that every Hero in the Marvel U grew up admiring, Bucky was always right there by his side-- He's a legend in his own right.

Question: How ignorant are the Marvel U heroes to Bucky's "situation" with Winter Soldier? Is his time in stasis and as an assassin common knowledge?

I also see them as liking him, but not anywhere near the level of admiration and respect for Steve.

Gather him in a room full of heroes during a conflict and I don't see him even being in consideration as a leader, or even a major player, even with the costume on. Thats what I mean.

[EnDwiGast]

There is that fatality about the removal of Cap. Though we all liked him, I think we took him for granted. I can see all these situations where Cap would react a different way to say Ms. Marvel, or Tony, or Luke Cage. But maybe we've been conditioned to how the writers have used him up to now, and we haven't used our imaginations to another use for Cap. Breaking open the package that was the SteveRogers/Captain America, may get us to look outside the box at an alternative Cap.

That's why I can see Bucky as a replacement for Cap. Bucky has been through the ringer; he knows Caps methods, being his sidekick, and coming together, that one more time in London, brought it all back again; then there's the clean-cut boy that Bucky was, before he became a superhero. You put this into a package, and you have a fair semblance of a Cap, but from a different perspective. I wager that Bucky didn't see eye -to-eye with all Caps decisions, so Bucky would bring something else to the table, that we haven't seen before.


I do see Bucky as being the only candidate i could buy into anytime soon as a next generation cap.

But another thing that would be a shame is how much i have been enjoying Winter soldier...a unique character in his own right.

Instead of someone else trying to be cap, i'd rather have steve being cap and Bucky growing into the winter soldier. two instead of one.

Its still my belief that bru wanted to elevate the character he was given and chose to do so by giving us a glimpse of a world without him, so we could more fully sppreciate him and what he brought into the equation by the time he returns.

[Brad Barton]

I do see Bucky as being the only candidate i could buy into anytime soon as a next generation cap.

But another thing that would be a shame is how much i have been enjoying Winter soldier...a unique character in his own right.

Instead of someone else trying to be cap, i'd rather have steve being cap and Bucky growing into the winter soldier. two instead of one.

Its still my belief that bru wanted to elevate the character he was given and chose to do so by giving us a glimpse of a world without him, so we could more fully sppreciate him and what he brought into the equation by the time he returns.Well, if you like Winter Soldier that much, then seeing him become Cap should'nt be a big deal. :D

Seriously though, you still talk of Cap as if he didn't die.
"i'd rather have steve being cap and Bucky growing into the winter soldier"Now that we know Steve can't be Cap, isn't Bucky his most viable replacement?

[jackolover]

Instead of someone else trying to be cap, i'd rather have steve being cap and Bucky growing into the winter soldier. two instead of one.

Its still my belief that bru wanted to elevate the character he was given and chose to do so by giving us a glimpse of a world without him, so we could more fully sppreciate him and what he brought into the equation by the time he returns.

Yes, it would be ideal to have both Cap and WS around.

But I worry about Brubakers return strategy for Steve. I fear Bru will just make it into a retcon, and it will feel so cheap. If Bru does bring back Cap, it had better be in one spectacular move, or the whole CW and Death of Cap will just be a bump in the road.

[EnDwiGast]

Well, if you like Winter Soldier that much, then seeing him become Cap should'nt be a big deal. :D

Seriously though, you still talk of Cap as if he didn't die. Now that we know Steve can't be Cap, isn't Bucky his most viable replacement?

Well, to be perfectly frank about it, there is only ever going to be one Cap in my view, and its Steve Rogers.

That Steve can't be Cap is as much an assumption -- given the dynamics of the comic book world -- as assuming he can and will.

Since in my view, Steve Rogers and Captain America are one and the same, and that i have faith Bru feels the same way - its just a matter or time until this all ties together neatly into the latest greatest epic in the history of steve rogers, Captain America. If not, I will find other books to read - but Bru hasn't let me down so far.

Bucky as Winter Soldier and Bucky as a new Captain America are two entirely different concepts and directions, and i don't believe you really can't see the difference there. :)

[EnDwiGast]

Yes, it would be ideal to have both Cap and WS around.

But I worry about Brubakers return strategy for Steve. I fear Bru will just make it into a retcon, and it will feel so cheap. If Bru does bring back Cap, it had better be in one spectacular move, or the whole CW and Death of Cap will just be a bump in the road.


i worry about this too.

But apart from Bru being a really great writer - everything seems to indicate to me that he had this all mapped out ahead of time as a very large story AND he is going to stick it out -- instead of getting the ball rolling and then bailing like a lot of other people.

Plus he seems to have a great deal of respect for bringing out the best in what is, instead of artificially changing things into his image just to put things into his image as certain other popular writers do.

[Brad Barton]

Bucky as Winter Soldier and Bucky as a new Captain America are two entirely different concepts and directions, and i don't believe you really can't see the difference there. :)No, but in the absence of Steve Rogers, temporary or not, I can see the dynamic of both Cap and the Winter Soldier smashed into one, and it intrugues me. ;)

EDIT: Do you think Captain America+Winter Soldier is a formula that results in Ultimate Captain America? That thought occured to me as I read over the thread...

[Nomad]

Do you think Captain America+Winter Soldier is a formula that results in Ultimate Captain America? That thought occured to me as I read over the thread...
No.:D

Bucky as cap doesn't appeal to me, but most of the folks that I know seem to think it's inevitable. Then again, those guys don't have Cap posters in their bedrooms like I have for the past 15 years :) I never did get the pajamas.

If Mr. Brubaker does take that path, I'm sure I'll be like "how could it have been any other way?" I remember when I was still rolling my eyes about bucky. Bucky, yay!!

By the way, he's stuck as Buck forever, isn't he? No James?
(Agent 13 turns to Bucky) "He's dead, Jim."

[PatchMadripoor]

Ermmm... Bucky is worthy of taking up the tradition of a partiot hero, but in terms of leadership, the only person whom the host of Marvel Universe heroes would follow into hell and back would be Steve Rogers. I don't see Bucky commanding the same level of respect from the other heroes. Getting some respect? Yes. Having T'Challa, Thor, Hercules, Namor and other proud heroes follow his lead? No.

And the villians? Forget about it.
Most of Marvel's big villians like Magneto and Doom have some well-earned respect for Captain America. I don't see Bucky commanding that level of respect from them. As in they would respect his fighting ability and his skills, but not the moral core and character of the man that Steve embodies as Captain America.

[wingsofdamnation]

i thought punisher was the new captain america?

[Brad Barton]

i thought punisher was the new captain america?No, someone said they made him wear that Cap/Punisher suit...

[StoneGold]

No, someone said they made him wear that Cap/Punisher suit...

If by "they" you mean Frank, yeah. But the costume isn't all that Captain America-y, and Castle is the only person who called himself Cap. And I think that was as much to piss off Hate Monger as anything else. But at best, the only person who considers Castle Cap is Castle.

[Man In Black]

Bucky as Cap?

I can't say yes or no till I see the story....which doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of ppl on this thread.....I see a lot of people judging before they've seen the product, how can you do that?

[jackolover]

Bucky as Cap?

I can't say yes or no till I see the story....which doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of ppl on this thread.....I see a lot of people judging before they've seen the product, how can you do that?

It's called conjecture.

[Brad Barton]

Bucky as Cap?

I can't say yes or no till I see the story....which doesn't seem to be the case with a lot of ppl on this thread.....I see a lot of people judging before they've seen the product, how can you do that?Great point, I've said this a few times, actually...


It's called conjecture.Fine line between "conjecture" and "Judging"....especially considering if the thread topic is true, we haven't seen the stories that will lead to it.

The bad thing about judging something before it's out is you start to sour the pot for other people too. Suddenly "it's gonna be crap" before anyone reads the first page and a truly good story is missed because of ignorant pre-judgement.

I say read the story first, Jacko, then if you don't like it come on here and tell us.

[jackolover]

a truly good story is missed because of ignorant pre-judgement.

I say read the story first, Jacko, then if you don't like it come on here and tell us.

I hope that's not the case, but pre-judgment in this case does seem to run deep. I know I am pretty far down the line that this will happen, but you never know.

[Brad Barton]

I hope that's not the case, but pre-judgment in this case does seem to run deep.As I'm sure Bru and the guys at Marvel knew it would....pre-judgement for Civil War ran pretty deep too, didn't stop it from being the "highest selling comic in over a decade".

All I have to judge the series on thus far is what we've seen since Cap's death, and that is:

-Bucky now has Cap's shield, specifically because he said "No one else is worthy" (hinting that maybe he thinks he's the only one thats worthy) and a personal vendetta against Tony Stark that is a logical grudge, giving the part he played in Cap's life before his death..

-Red Skull obviously has a plan that involves time-travel, and I think the possibility of him traveling back to the Nazi-era (maybe in part to neutralize Bucky in that era) is probably pretty strong...although this plot can go many different ways, I admit.

There seem to be larger events on the horizon than just "Bucky will be Cap", but I would love to see the grand plan Red Skull has in mind come crashing down around his ears as a result of either WInter SOldier, or Bucky as the new Cap.

[jackolover]

but I would love to see the grand plan Red Skull has in mind come crashing down around his ears as a result of either WInter SOldier, or Bucky as the new Cap.

I wouldn't mind seeing Red Skulls plan work, and Bucky or WS get screwed around somewhat. I want to see Bucky squirm for a while. It will be a fitting Origin Story, if Bucky can come back from adversity.

[reddog]

One of the reasons i only read about 5 DC titles is the whole throw another guy in the suit thing they like to do. I feel it dilutes the character and starts that whole who's better kyle or hal junk. I do like the nightwing and batman angle because it leads to there being two solid characters. I know in this case one is dead but i would rather see the winter soldier build his own character without the shadow of the past.

[static]

I would not mind in the least if this comic continued as "The Legend of Captain America" and stared Buck as the Winter Solider carrying Caps Shield...doing missions for a always hidden Spy-master Nick Fury...with Sharon and the Falcon as supporting characters. Even guys like Blackcrow. Zola and Dr Faustuslook kewl in this comic! No one wears an "A" on their forhead but the thread that units the characters is the Legacy of the one and only Star Spangled Avenger, the Sentinel of Liberty Steve Roger Captain America!!! the man himself is dead but the Courage, Patriotism and Nobilty carries on !!! Show how the specter of Cap affects each characters lives and actions, what does the rest of the MU think of bucky alive and carrying Caps famed Shield? Do they believe its really him? what about the MU citizens? or Caps rogues gallery? What about when Buck meets Zemo? or Strucker? or Union Jack? ....this would be kewl.....

[Brad Barton]

***Major Bumpage (5 Months!) ***

Well, I called it almost 6 months ago, and now it seems to be all but a certainty.

You guys ready for Captain America: James Barnes?

[Red Lotus]

***Major Bumpage (5 Months!) ***

Well, I called it almost 6 months ago, and now it seems to be all but a certainty.

You guys ready for Captain America: James Barnes?

Great what next Jason Todd as the new Batman. They should have picked a Cap who heroes would want to rally around not one who heroes would want to sock him in the jaw.

[Jmacq1]

I think the whole point is that he's a different Cap for a different time.

If people go into the story assuming that he's supposed to replace Steve in every possible way, of course they're going to be disappointed. In fact I'd say if Bucky did end up doing everything just as well as Steve did, it'd be a horrible way to portray how tragic the loss of Steve Rogers is.

The whole point is that no one was Steve Rogers. That doesn't mean that there can never be a Captain America again, it's just not going to be the same Captain America.

In other words, Bucky will probably be a more "mission-focused operative" Cap rather than a "inspiring leader to all the heroes" Cap. The "leadership void" is one that should never fully be filled unless/until Steve Rogers comes back. In the meantime, it was Steve's wish that "Captain America" go on even in the event of his death, so putting someone new in the suit doesn't ring false to me, particularly if it's Cap's first partner.

[CaptainCanada]

I think he could do the job until Steve comes back.

Now, Bucky isn't Steve, so Steve's leadership role isn't one of the things that he'd "inherit" (in Bernard Cornwell Arthurian terms, you can inherit the kingship, but not the post of Pendragon); he's more like, say, Wally West as the Flash: he's the new shield-slinger/Fastest Man Alive, who'll deal with his mentor's villains.

He'll necessarily be a darker character, since he's lived a darker life, but he's not the Punisher. I think the last few issues have shown that, while he sank into violent impulses, he also has profound doubts about his own morality (#31, when Faustus calls him "barely human" because of his war service), and can see Steve as an exemplar. He just doesn't think he'll ever live up to it; presumably, becoming Captain America is the endgame of this, where he turns himself around (or is turned around) and decides to start doing so.

[Red Lotus]

In the meantime, it was Steve's wish that "Captain America" go on even in the event of his death, so putting someone new in the suit doesn't ring false to me, particularly if it's Cap's first partner.

I'm for putting some one new in the suit, but Bucky. Why not Sharon Carter, the Falcon, Clint Barton, they could bring back that MVP kid that was killed.

I really don't see any difference between having James Barnes as Cap then having Frank Castle as the new Cap. They are both heroes who other heroes would just as likely beat the crap out of.

[CaptainCanada]

I really don't see any difference between having James Barnes as Cap then having Frank Castle as the new Cap. They are both heroes who other heroes would just as likely beat the crap out of.
Why, exactly? Bucky has never done anything to provoke that kind of dislike.

[EnDwiGast]

I dunno, it actually seems like this would be a really good place to let the Steve Rogers character rest for awhile. He's been active on and off for over 65 years, and frozen in ice or no, it tends to stretch the imagination that an 85-year old man can look, fight and act like a 30 year old forever...

But even more than that, this can give rise to a whole new era of Captain America. You could call it the post Civil-War era ;)

Then 10, 15 years down the road, when maybe the characters popularity or sales are flagging, then you have the mega-event "Captain America: The Return of Steve Rogers"

Nah.

Clearly you are excited about Bucky becoming Cap for a long time.

I feel the opposite and so do many other true Cap fans. At least those who see Cap as something more than a name and costume. We are going to see Steve Rogers returning sooner, rather than later.

[Capt USA]

I'm for putting some one new in the suit, but Bucky. Why not Sharon Carter, the Falcon, Clint Barton, they could bring back that MVP kid that was killed.

I really don't see any difference between having James Barnes as Cap then having Frank Castle as the new Cap. They are both heroes who other heroes would just as likely beat the crap out of.

I was hoping it would be Falcon.


big difference between the two, neither one is a hero, but bucky does understand where a line needs to be drawn, meanwhile castle is just a homicidal maniac who is just basically just a murderer of people nearly as evil as him.

[Capt Hunter]

This is what I think of when thinking of someone else other then Steve Rogers as Captain America

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Hunter010105/No.jpg

[Capt USA]

Nah.

Clearly you are excited about Bucky becoming Cap for a long time.

I feel the opposite and so do many other true Cap fans. At least those who see Cap as something more than a name and costume. We are going to see Steve Rogers returning sooner, rather than later.

I think that is a little over the top, anyone who has been a fan of steve rogers knows that these type of things are temporary and only Steve can truly represent Captain America in marvel 616 universe, but in the meantime Bucky(falcon or whoever) can take over the mantle to learn how tough it is to be Cap or to show why there is only one steve rogers etc. (to be honest Sam wilson is the only other person who could ever wear the costume and be almost as good as Steve)

[Frank]

He killed, but he didn't enjoy it, and generally tried to avoid it post-war -- not to the irrational extents that DC heroes go to, but if he had another option he took it.

And the belief that he'd be "more suited to this world" is exactly *why* I don't want to see Cap replaced. Because it's an explicit rejection of Steve Rogers' beliefs and principles; it's one thing to kill the body, it's another thing to kill that spirit, and that's exactly what it would be. Taking the image and name and historical weight that was entirely his creation, and using it to obliterate what he was.

No thanks.

That would imply that Bucky as Cap won't change his methods. And I think he will. Something tells me he would do everything in his power to keep the honour of what this means. And what Steve Rogers was all about.

[Jmacq1]

Nah.

Clearly you are excited about Bucky becoming Cap for a long time.

I feel the opposite and so do many other true Cap fans. At least those who see Cap as something more than a name and costume. We are going to see Steve Rogers returning sooner, rather than later.

Not unless sales start falling rapidly.

Supremely arrogant of you to claim that "true" Cap fans can't be excited about the idea of Bucky as Captain America though. We all know Steve will likely be back eventually. But some of us "true" Cap fans can see Cap as more than a "name and a costume" and still enjoy the thought of exploring how someone besides Steve Rogers copes with being Captain America for a while.

[Red Lotus]

I was hoping it would be Falcon.


big difference between the two, neither one is a hero, but bucky does understand where a line needs to be drawn, meanwhile castle is just a homicidal maniac who is just basically just a murderer of people nearly as evil as him.

This is my problem. Cap was the hero of heroes. He set the bar, now it feels like that bar is about to be lowered and that this is Marvel way of saying for today’s America we need a Bucky type to be Cap for Cap to have an impact.

[Brad Barton]

Nah.

Clearly you are excited about Bucky becoming Cap for a long time.Nah, "excited" is really too strong a word. I'd say "intrigued".

I appreciate the character of Steve Rogers, but I'm intrigued to see how/if Bucky can fill his shoes. And since we're all pretty certain Steve Rogers will be back eventually anyway, why not give the kid a chance? Why not add another distinct chapter to the ongoing saga of Captain America?

[Sanlear]

Nah, "excited" is really too strong a word. I'd say "intrigued".

I appreciate the character of Steve Rogers, but I'm intrigued to see how/if Bucky can fill his shoes. And since we're all pretty certain Steve Rogers will be back eventually anyway, why not give the kid a chance? Why not add another distinct chapter to the ongoing saga of Captain America? Agreed. I'm curious to see how Winter Bucky will do in Steve Roger's shoes.

[EnDwiGast]

Not unless sales start falling rapidly.

Supremely arrogant of you to claim that "true" Cap fans can't be excited about the idea of Bucky as Captain America though. We all know Steve will likely be back eventually. But some of us "true" Cap fans can see Cap as more than a "name and a costume" and still enjoy the thought of exploring how someone besides Steve Rogers copes with being Captain America for a while.

Not really.

The key thing here is the difference between "for a while" and "10 to 15 years down the road".

I'm actually looking forward to seeing Bucky step in as Captain America -- for a while. I can see a scenario where Steve Rogers doesn't come back until #50.

But no fan of a character wants them to go away for 10 to 15 years. If thats arrogant. Then so be it.


I think that is a little over the top, anyone who has been a fan of steve rogers knows that these type of things are temporary and only Steve can truly represent Captain America in marvel 616 universe, but in the meantime Bucky(falcon or whoever) can take over the mantle to learn how tough it is to be Cap or to show why there is only one steve rogers etc. (to be honest Sam wilson is the only other person who could ever wear the costume and be almost as good as Steve)

I think we're agreeing here. Or would you really be okay with having to wait 10 to 15 years to see Steve rogers come back?

[EnDwiGast]

Nah, "excited" is really too strong a word. I'd say "intrigued".

I appreciate the character of Steve Rogers, but I'm intrigued to see how/if Bucky can fill his shoes. And since we're all pretty certain Steve Rogers will be back eventually anyway, why not give the kid a chance? Why not add another distinct chapter to the ongoing saga of Captain America?

Just to be clearer, it wasn't about getting to see a storyline of Bucky trying to fill Steve's shoes. I'm intrigued by that too.

But it seems people are overlooking this portion:


Then 10, 15 years down the road, when maybe the characters popularity or sales are flagging, then you have the mega-event "Captain America: The Return of Steve Rogers"

I'm intrigued by seeing that over the next year or so. After all, I was intrigued when USAgent tried to do the exact same thing. This is even more intriguing because of the history. As a fan of Winter Soldier though, sooner rather than later I'd like to see the Winter Soldier's own unique story continue AND continue to read the new adventures of Steve Rogers, Captain America.

But again, if I'm a fan of a character then I don't want to see that character have a 10 to 15 year absence. Thats when I see a whole new level of interest beyond simply being intrigued.

[Capt Hunter]

I can see Rogers returning to the role of Nomad for a while, as Bucky tries his hands at Captain America. Since Marvel is all about the 70's revival stuff, I can see it happen. Nomad would certainly seem right until he can "redeem" :rolleyes: himself after the events of Civil War.

[Brad Barton]

But again, if I'm a fan of a character then I don't want to see that character have a 10 to 15 year absence. Thats when I see a whole new level of interest beyond simply being intrigued.I'm pretty sure you realize that I was hypothesizing in the most abstract way with the "10 or 15 years comment".

I was throwing out ideas. Postulating concepts. Pondering possible eventualities -- I wasn't definitively saying I'll have it no other way than Bucky being Cap until 2018. :rolleyes:

[Jmacq1]

For me? If the stories stay at the level of quality they have been, Bucky could be Captain America forever and I wouldn't mind.

Likewise, I wouldn't mind if Steve Rogers came back next issue, so long as the story/stories that result from it were equally good.

In short: It's the quality, not simply who's in the suit that's important to me.

[EnDwiGast]

I'm pretty sure you realize that I was hypothesizing in the most abstract way with the "10 or 15 years comment".

I was throwing out ideas. Postulating concepts. Pondering possible eventualities -- I wasn't definitively saying I'll have it no other way than Bucky being Cap until 2018. :rolleyes:

ok. That could have been made clearer in the initial post. :rolleyes:

But thanks for clearing that up.

[Sandy Hausler]

Hmmm, I thought the "denial" phase was already supposed to have passed? ;)

Some of you aren't realizing that Marvel are, in a way obligated to keep Steve dead for at least awhile, otherwise it completely negates the whole story-line, and I don't think that's their aim.


Why is believing that Cap is still alive denial.

Anyone remember Hawkeye's death. And Cap is ten times more important to Marvel's history than Hawkeye. (And I am a BIG Hawkeye fan.)

Sandy Hausler

[Capt Hunter]

I was at wiki earlier reading about Captain America and it mentioned that Ed Brubaker made a major annoucement on his web blog, yesterday. I googled the hell out of it and couldn't find it. SO I went back to wiki and it was deleted. WTF. any one else see this?

Does Ed Brubaker have a web blog and where is it? Anyone have a link. I think it was a hoax but you never know.

[Brad Barton]

Why is believing that Cap is still alive denial.Because at this point, Marvel has commited to his death very fully and publicly. There was a huge selling mini-series on his death/passing, and his current title is pretty much a roadmap to Bucky becoming Cap.

So yeah, Steve will almost certainly be back one day, but for the current time, he's a stiff.


Anyone remember Hawkeye's death. And Cap is ten times more important to Marvel's history than Hawkeye.Right, but their perceived "importance" to Marvel's history really doesn't have anything to do with how long they might or might not stay dead.

Captain Marvel was probably "more important" to Marvel than Hawkeye was at the time that he died too, and yet he still stayed dead for 20 years.