FLASH REBIRTH: The return of Barry Allen *SPOILERS*

[sabongero]

We all know about Barry Allen with his heroic death during the Crisis of Infinte Earths back in the mid-80s. And his death stuck, and it was etched in stone. There was no resurrection.

Now during the Wally West run in the 2nd volume of The Flash, Barry Allen as The Flash has made sporadic appearances.

Now after a little over 20 years, is the time ripe for a Barry Allen comeback and be The Fastest Man Alive again ?

Hal Jordan is back as the Green Lantern. And he and Barry are a good tandem in the DC Universe. It's like Alan Scott and Jay Garrick.

Bart Allen is holding The Flash mantle right now. In the beginning of the new series, The Flash, Bart just doesn't have that pinache of being The Flash. But now under the new scribe, MR. Guggenheim, there seems to be improvement. But will Bart have to die in order to bring Barry back ?

[Captain Jim]

I hope Bart doesn't die, but I wouldn't mind seeing Barry back at this point.

Does anybody else get the impression that there's some hint that this might happen at the end of Countdown? Or is DC indulging in misdirection here?

[4thHorseman]

I hope not. I didn't really read Flash all that much, and Barry was never a character I knew much about. And to change this up and toss Bart out after only so many issues, I think it's complete crap. Bart is a good character, though I think he lost some fun characteristics when he "grew up", and I wouldn't want him to suddenly be gone just to satisfy some old school fanboy who can't get past one character that died 20 years ago

[Kid Kyoto]

I tell ya Barry's coming back! Thomas and Martha Wayne and Jor-El and Lara are next!

Then REHEAT can really turn up the uh... heat for the return of Hal Paralax Jordon!

[Dark Ben]

I think it's the same that the Marvel Captain Marvel, If they killed Barry it was because he didn't sale that much, even before the industries went bad.
I'm a big fan of Barry Allen, I really like him but he's been more popular since his death than even before he died. So no I don't want him back in a permanent way but I still would enjoyed stories about him in the past of the DCU and occasionnal guest appearance as he did and as a mentor for the Flash Legacy.

[marshal99]

*Sigh* Every few months , some dope will inevitably start a thread asking for Barry Allen's return. :(
If you want barry allen stories , please go buy the pre-crisis Flash comics , go read them first. Bet those that are requesting his return probably have never really read much of his old comics at all.

[frankiedetroit]

Bring back Barry? I'm confused. Writers put him in more stories now than ever. He's starring in a bimonthly right now (Justice).

[Rattlehead]

I don't want Barry to come back. His death in COIE was very moving, poignant, and it meant something. It was the perfect way for a hero to go out. I think ditching Wally for Bart was a misguided decision, but that doesn't mean I want Barry's death retconned. Maybe put him on an alternate Earth if people want him back that bad.

[hichaec]

I think Barry will be making a number of appearances in the next year or so, but I don't think he'll come back and be a permanent fixture in the main DCU. Even though there's obviously something going on in Flash right now, I really feel like Bart's going to be sticking around for a while.

But maybe that's just wishful thinking. :D I like Barry in stories like New Frontier and Justice, but I wouldn't be interested in reading about long-term him in the present DCU.

[Jack Zodiac]

If they do, I hope they do it the way the Wolf Man expected somebody to- picking him out of the timestream to continue fighting as a hero on borrowed time, knowing he'd eventually have to return to the point of his death to stall the death of the multiverse. Except Johns already snatched that idea up and used it for Rex Tyler in JSA to keep him going as a character after his death in Zero Hour. Then again, they already sullied that idea by replacing him with Android Hourman.

So if they bring Barry back, permanently, I hope it isn't at the cost of another great scarlet speedster, like Wally or Bart.

[Buried Alien]

I'm ready for Barry's return as the Flash...been ready for over ten years now. Once upon a time, I might have conceded that there was something to the whole "noble sacrifice in CRISIS" argument, but in my opinion, that argument is worn, weary, and totally played out. As I've said numerous times before: Barry Allen's creators didn't create him to be a dead man (that's Boston Brand and formerly Jim Corrigan's turf). Twenty plus years of "dead Barry" is more than enough for me (how many more interesting variations of "Barry died saving everybody in the Crisis, which was depicted in a maxiseries published before much of today's comic-reading public was even born" can one possibly do or want?). Bring on living Barry.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Tried posting this twice before, but the server ate it. :mad:

The argument that the dead should stay dead was more impressive before Jason and Bucky both came back.

I'm not necessarily saying I want Barry back, I'm just saying it looks like DC is hinting in this direction. Or do you think I'm wrong?

Not that many people were calling for Hal Jordan's return either, but since he came back, his book's been selling like crazy--which I'm sure DC has noticed.

[Billage]

Barry is a cool character which I have learned to appreciate considering I was born the year COIE hit.

After reading stories like New Frontier,JLA Year One,Justice and Brave and the Bold,I really don't see anything wrong with the character.A bold and very decent married man who loves his wife,works a boring job and has trouble balancing time between the costume and time with his wife.Geez,characters don't need to be angry or emo in order to be exciting.

[PastePotPete]

My LCS owner says that he heard a rumor that the big reveal in Flash #13 is going to be that...

You ready for this?

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IF THIS IS TRUE BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE SO USE YOUR OWN DESCRETION

Bart is Barry. Now, Bart's history is kind of convoluted and I'm no expert on it, but the idea is that something happened to Barry that catapulted him into the future and de-aged him and then aged him again at a rapid rate. Bart Allen is Barry Allen.


Does that sound like it could work to you guys? Probable? Improbable?

[OzBat!]

That would involve Iris lying to us on virtually every level in her every appearance in the last 10, 15 years.

[Taskmaster]

Not that many people were calling for Hal Jordan's return either, but since he came back, his book's been selling like crazy--which I'm sure DC has noticed.


Not that many people? Ever heard of HEAT? How about Alex Ross? How about the thousands that would boost up GLs sales every time he appeared? It's a diffent situation. That being said, I still wouldn't mind if Barry returned at this point since as of Inifinte Crisis he's already back and just hanging out on the new Earth-2 with Wally and family (as shown in earlier issues of the current Flash series)



That would involve Iris lying to us on virtually every level in her every appearance in the last 10, 15 years.

Not if she didn't know

That idea does sound pretty lame though, especially considering that Bart has met Barry through various time travel and ghost meeting stories

[Raker616]

Bart being Barry would be worse than Barry staying dead.

[SKETCHSANCHEZ]

My LCS owner says that he heard a rumor that the big reveal in Flash #13 is going to be that...

You ready for this?

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IF THIS IS TRUE BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE SO USE YOUR OWN DESCRETION

Bart is Barry. Now, Bart's history is kind of convoluted and I'm no expert on it, but the idea is that something happened to Barry that catapulted him into the future and de-aged him and then aged him again at a rapid rate. Bart Allen is Barry Allen.


Does that sound like it could work to you guys? Probable? Improbable?

Well they do have the same name.

Every listing I've seen for both has their real names as "Bartholomew Allen"

Curiouser and curiouser

[StoneGold]

That would involve Iris lying to us on virtually every level in her every appearance in the last 10, 15 years.

Easy way around that: time is changed. As it turns out, she doesn't know the past any more.

[Gottaluvit]

Well, whatever they are doing, Barry is coming back even if its only for a short stint there's too many hints and didn't L.I.T.G say last week that Barry was definitely comeing back? I beleive it was green lighted as well so thats a pretty positive sign.

[Buried Alien]

The argument that the dead should stay dead was more impressive before Jason and Bucky both came back.

Not that many people were calling for Hal Jordan's return either, but since he came back, his book's been selling like crazy--which I'm sure DC has noticed.

Jason Todd, Hal Jordan, the Guardians of the Universe, Kilowog, the GL Corps, Sinestro, Ollie Queen, a Kara Zor-El Supergirl, the Monitor(s)...the list goes on and on. If all these formerly dead comic book characters are living again, what excuse is there really to keep Barry Allen dead? To have a "token" permanent death? Wouldn't mean much in light of all the other revivals.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[marshal99]

The legacy of the Flash has already been succeeded , first by Wally , now Bart , don't need so many flashes. Barry is dead , let him stay dead.

Hal should never have been dead the first place , he should still have been Parallax. The current Paris hilton supergirl is crap and a insult to the original kara . Green Arrow died in a dumb way. The rest are minor characters.

Barry has been dead for over 20 years , what's the point of bringing him back when there's already Wally & Bart taking up his costume and legacy ?

[Buried Alien]

Barry has been dead for over 20 years , what's the point of bringing him back when there's already Wally & Bart taking up his costume and legacy ?

The point is, there are people who want to read about Barry Allen as a current presence in the DCU, not a dead icon of the Silver Age. Many of these readers know of Barry Allen only as a legendary figure of the past, and are genuinely curious as to what he would be like in the context of today's DCU.

Moreover, and this is completely subjective, but as much as Wally West has established himself as a great Flash during the intervening two decades, there's still a wide perception that Barry Allen is THE Flash. Those who remember the character that way naturally want to see him in action again, and those who only have secondhand knowledge of it are probably curious to see what the big deal is about.

Finally, having Barry back as the Flash again doesn't obliterate Wally's career as the Flash (or Bart's still nascent one). Barring another continuity retcon of massive proportions, those tenures still happened. Even WITH an unlikely massive continuity retcon of that nature, there are still twenty years of Wally West FLASH stories that have been read and enjoyed and won't be "unread" or "unenjoyed" even if Barry Allen were to return as the Flash.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Billage]

The legacy of the Flash has already been succeeded , first by Wally , now Bart , don't need so many flashes. Barry is dead , let him stay dead.

Hal should never have been dead the first place , he should still have been Parallax. The current Paris hilton supergirl is crap and a insult to the original kara . Green Arrow died in a dumb way. The rest are minor characters.

Barry has been dead for over 20 years , what's the point of bringing him back when there's already Wally & Bart taking up his costume and legacy ?

Umm,sure if you like lame ass villains.

[PastePotPete]

Finally, having Barry back as the Flash again doesn't obliterate Wally's career as the Flash (or Bart's still nascent one). Barring another continuity retcon of massive proportions, those tenures still happened. Even WITH an unlikely massive continuity retcon of that nature, there are still twenty years of Wally West FLASH stories that have been read and enjoyed and won't be "unread" or "unenjoyed" even if Barry Allen were to return as the Flash.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Good point, Buried. I'm always confused by people who claim some change or retcon will invalidate all the old stories they enjoyed.
I LOVED Wally as the Flash. His stories were great. If they retconned them all away right now I really wouldn't be that upset. I still have them in my longboxes.

DC is welcome to bring Barry back if they think they can tell better stories with him. Personally, I don't see Barry offering better story options at this point so I hope they keep Bart.

[phantom1592]

I agree that once upon a time, Barry's death was meaningful and relevant. That time is however long past. The moment they had him jump to the future and can "pop" back every few issues as a guest appearance it became pointless.

Added again on the ressurection of EVERYONE else up to and including Jason and Bucky.... THe only reason to leave him dead is like Buried said. A token dead guy. He still shows up too often to be considered the great martyr. Lets get him back.

As for the people who just say to read the old issues.... A LARGE portion of those old comics... really suck. Artists were paid a nickle a page to draw them, and they were written for 5-10 year olds. Hal Jordan is my favorite DC character but Ican't get through that Showcase TPB. What's wrong with people wanting a cool character drawn by good artists with Writers that are relevant? I LOVED JLA: year one, and Brave and the Bold!

[PastePotPete]

I guess my question to DC and to Barry lovers on this board would be:
Why would stories about Barry be better right now than stories about Bart or Wally?

I'm really not against bringing him back, but I want to know why some people think Barry is a more interesting character. For my money, most of those old silver age heroes all had the same personality.

[Ian J.N.]

Back in the good ol' Wally days, I was adamant that Barry Allen stay dead. To bring back Barry would have necessitated an overhaul in the premise of Wally's character and his motivation for wearing the mantle. To really bring back Barry (i.e. no semi-retired Jay Garrick status, or empty lip service like with Hal Jordan as Spectre), Wally's world would have had to be completely redefined. Wally and Barry have the same costume, powers, villains, setting... heck, they're both married to reporters. For Barry to return to his mythos and Wally not be redundant would have meant complete and total reinvention of the status quo. It just so happened that I liked the status quo...

What's funny is that all that stuff I considered bad then is good now. I'd like to see Bart Allen's Flash distinguished from Wally West's and for the title to explore new ground--new locale, new villains, a revamped costume, etc. On the other hand, it'd be a shame to lose the traditional mythos. With a big Rebirth-esque return of Barry Allen, we could have the best of both worlds.

[Buried Alien]

I guess my question to DC and to Barry lovers on this board would be:
Why would stories about Barry be better right now than stories about Bart or Wally?

I'm really not against bringing him back, but I want to know why some people think Barry is a more interesting character. For my money, most of those old silver age heroes all had the same personality.

Back in the Silver Age, perhaps, but in today’s DCU, is there any character who really represents that traditionalist Silver Age perspective? Even the characters who originated with Barry during the Silver Age have been retconned so that they never had those straight-arrow, cookie-cutter personalities that characterized the Silver Age.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that a revived Barry Allen, with his original Silver Age personality and worldview intact, would lend a unique perspective in the Modern Age DCU. What was once common is now nearly unrepresented. Barry could be unique as the lone representative of that traditionalist Silver Age perspective. In an age of angsty, conflicted heroes, the traditionalist Barry would offer a unique and distinct counterpoint.

As for what Barry can offer as the Flash that Wally and Bart can’t, I would say it’s the adult perspective to being the Fastest Man Alive that Barry brings. As much as Wally had come into his own as an adult hero by the time of INFINITE CRISIS, he was to the end, a younger man with a younger man’s anxieties. To the end, Wally was never as sure of himself as Barry had been, and while Wally did finally earn the respect of Clark, Bruce, Diana, etc., he was never truly one of them in the same sense that Barry was. Wally was never a peer to Clark, Bruce, Hal, etc., in the same sense that Barry was. This particular situation is compounded with Bart as the Flash. While there’s nothing particularly wrong with that, I really miss having a Flash that has the gravitas of being a true peer of the heavy hitters such as Superman and Batman, and one of the founders of the Justice League. Barry also lent the perspective of an experienced scientist, which Wally and Bart, although educated in the sciences, couldn’t quite replicate.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[CMBMOOL]

Back in the Silver Age, perhaps, but in today’s DCU, is there any character who really represents that traditionalist Silver Age perspective? Even the characters who originated with Barry during the Silver Age have been retconned so that they never had those straight-arrow, cookie-cutter personalities that characterized the Silver Age.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that a revived Barry Allen, with his original Silver Age personality and worldview intact, would lend a unique perspective in the Modern Age DCU. What was once common is now nearly unrepresented. Barry could be unique as the lone representative of that traditionalist Silver Age perspective. In an age of angsty, conflicted heroes, the traditionalist Barry would offer a unique and distinct counterpoint.

As for what Barry can offer as the Flash that Wally and Bart can’t, I would say it’s the adult perspective to being the Fastest Man Alive that Barry brings. As much as Wally had come into his own as an adult hero by the time of INFINITE CRISIS, he was to the end, a younger man with a younger man’s anxieties. To the end, Wally was never as sure of himself as Barry had been, and while Wally did finally earn the respect of Clark, Bruce, Diana, etc., he was never truly one of them in the same sense that Barry was. Wally was never a peer to Clark, Bruce, Hal, etc., in the same sense that Barry was. This particular situation is compounded with Bart as the Flash. While there’s nothing particularly wrong with that, I really miss having a Flash that has the gravitas of being a true peer of the heavy hitters such as Superman and Batman, and one of the founders of the Justice League. Barry also lent the perspective of an experienced scientist, which Wally and Bart, although educated in the sciences, couldn’t quite replicate.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That was a beatiful statement on how Barry touch us all, in our hearts and can never be replace no matter how much one can try. :(

[jv2k]

I personally don't like seeing dead characters being revived. Its bad they've brought pretty much everyone else back to life but I don't see how that justifies bringing Barry back. He's dead and I like the idea that, despite other characters crapping all over the concept of death, he is still dead. I personally find that the idea of people coming back from the grave all the time really makes the industry seem ridiculous.

I also like Bart and would like to see him come into his own. People dislike his first run but his book was still leaps and bound better than Wally's first run(Kilgore...). I also like the legacy that the flash has. Unlike Batman or superman, the Flashes sidekicks age and take over their mentors mantels. For DC to bring back Barry is a step backwards.

[Ian J.N.]

I'm really not against bringing him back, but I want to know why some people think Barry is a more interesting character. For my money, most of those old silver age heroes all had the same personality.
Reading the new Flash Showcase volume, I can say that, yes, Barry has the flat characterization typical of Silver Age writing. Ironically, that works in his favor.

(Disclaimer: I haven't read nearly as much of the character as Buried has. My perspective is based largely on Mark Waid's post-Crisis interpretation, so take this with a grain a salt.)

Barry is boring. Outwardly, he's slow, plodding, methodical, and detail oriented. Geoff Johns portrayed Wally as an interesting blue-collared man of the people. Not the case with Barry. He's a boring ol' middle class white guy who processes soil samples for the local police department. However. Inwardly, Barry has a rich, childlike imagination, which shines through in his adventures as the bright-colored Flash (syn. amazing, bizarre, "boss", curious, darb, exceptional, "fab", fantastic, "gnarly", "heavy", inconceivable, incredible, marvelous, odd, outstanding, peculiar, phenomenal, primo, rare, remarkable, singular, special, strange, stupendous, surprising, terrific, uncommon, unfamiliar, unheard-of, unimaginable, unique, unprecedented, unthinkable, unusual, unwonted, weird, "wicked", wonderful).

The appeal of superheroes is based on the escapist idea of being able to reveal your special inner self. The carefree playboy is really a dark avenger of the night. The oafish titmouse is really a super-man. With that sharp dynamic between civilian and superhero identities, Barry is up there with the greats. Moreover, when he puts on that costume, he becomes everything that comic books should be.

Am I overselling it? Yes, but I'm not finished.

While Wally is my favorite Flash (he was my first), and Bart is quickly growing on me, Barry is more iconic than either of them. I judge a character's "iconicness" on my ability to explain him/her to the general public. Wally: "You know how superheroes have sidekicks, like Batman and Robin? Well, imagine if Batman died, and the all growed up Robin had to take his place. That's who Wally is." Bart: "Imagine if Superman moved to the future to start a family, and Superboy took his place in the present, but then Superboy went away, and Superman's grandson from the future took over. That's who Bart is." Barry: "Imagine if a guy got hit by lightnin' and chemicals to become the fastest man alive. That's who Barry Allen is."

Wally and Bart are dependent on continuity for their existence, and Barry Allen in particular. If you want to shake things up without confusing readers with continuity, go to Barry Allen. He's a great character.

[Ian J.N.]

I personally don't like seeing dead characters being revived. Its bad they've brought pretty much everyone else back to life but I don't see how that justifies bringing Barry back. He's dead and I like the idea that, despite other characters crapping all over the concept of death, he is still dead. I personally find that the idea of people coming back from the grave all the time really makes the industry seem ridiculous.
Be honest, though: Have you ever had an emotionally-moving death scene ruined because you thought "Pfft. He'll be back in twenty years." Surely, there's a statute of limitations.

[Buried Alien]

Be honest, though: Have you ever had an emotionally-moving death scene ruined because you thought "Pfft. He'll be back in twenty years." Surely, there's a statute of limitations.

Agreed. By now, refusing to accept the possibility of Barry Allen returning as the Flash on the principle of his noble death in COIE twenty-two years ago is just stubbornly sticking with a status quo out of which every last worthwhile drop has already been squeezed.

And Barry Allen does deserve better than just being a background character for Wally West and/or Bart Allen.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Barry Allen in his day-to-day identity was a police scientist. That had SO much potential, but was never ever explored in the comics. In the short-lived TV series (which not everybody liked, but I did), they really made use of that, to very good effect. I'd love to see something similar done in the comics.

[jadehorde]

Agreed. By now, refusing to accept the possibility of Barry Allen returning as the Flash on the principle of his noble death in COIE twenty-two years ago is just stubbornly sticking with a status quo out of which every last worthwhile drop has already been squeezed.

And Barry Allen does deserve better than just being a background character for Wally West and/or Bart Allen.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Then the simple answer is stop trying to appease Silver Age fans and have him finally meet his maker with no time traveling guest appearances or ghosts or whatever.

Viola. He's no longer a background character of WW or Bart. He's just a memory as any dead person should be.

[Buried Alien]

Then the simple answer is stop trying to appease Silver Age fans and have him finally meet his maker with no time traveling guest appearances or ghosts or whatever.

Except that Barry Allen remains a popular character with readers of DC Comics, only part of which are represented by people who have been reading since the Silver Age. Barry Allen has appeared in various books (i.e. THE NEW FRONTIER, JUSTICE, choice issues of the Mark Waid and Geoff Johns runs of THE FLASH, JLA YEAR ONE, etc.). There seems to be a great deal of denial going on that the Barry Allen character still holds a great amount of appeal to a good many people as an active, living character. This audience's wishes have been denied for too long in favor of the "keep Barry dead" audience, which might be more vehement, but is not demonstrably more numerous.

Viola. He's no longer a background character of WW or Bart. He's just a memory as any dead person should be.

Of course, this presumes nobody wants to read about Barry Allen anymore...which is a presumption that isn't well supported.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[sabongero]

If they are going to bring back Barry Allen as the DC mainstream universe FLASH and take over the role from Bart Allen in The Flash, The Fastest Man Alive, then the timing couldn't be any more perfect. Marc Guggenheim is helming the said comic at this time. And he is an accomplished tv and movie scribe with reference to the crime genre. And he would be the best to write about Barry Allen, police scientist.

If this does happen, he can work his magic and actually take the Barry Allen character and make him deeper than the flat Silver Age version. Plus with Barry Allen back as The Flash, you will finally see in The Flash comic books where The Flash is the same physically as his civilian alter ego. Unlike Bart Allen who as The Flash is like several inches taller and oh so many pounds bulkier in muscle when in costume. And so much smaller and younger when not in costume.

[Nintendite]

Hopefully, if he does come back, they use Wolfman's idea of having borrowed time.

[justcrash]

*Sigh* Every few months , some dope will inevitably start a thread asking for Barry Allen's return. :(
If you want barry allen stories , please go buy the pre-crisis Flash comics , go read them first. Bet those that are requesting his return probably have never really read much of his old comics at all.

+1 I HATED Bary's flash title. Boring, boring, boring. Even as a kid I disliked it. At that point my thoughts on Flash were "Wow, he can run fast... :rolleyes: " Wally became my favorite DC hero, maybe my all time favorite hero. Barry is 100 x more interesting dead then he ever was alive.

All of that being said, I really liked Waid's take on him in JLA Year one and The Bave and the Bold. :)

[justcrash]

Wally was never a peer to Clark, Bruce, Hal, etc.,

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I respectfully disagree. Read one of Morrisons early JLA arcs, where Clark is thinking to himself how much he respcts Wally, how he has been a hero longer then almost anyone there. It was either the Asmodel arc or the first white martian arc.

[Buried Alien]

I respectfully disagree. Read one of Morrisons early JLA arcs, where Clark is thinking to himself how much he respcts Wally, how he has been a hero longer then almost anyone there. It was either the Asmodel arc or the first white martian arc.

Clark and the others definitely respect and trust Wally...I don't suggest otherwise. Nevertheless, they can never quite truly relate to Wally as a *peer* (and vice-versa) the same way that they did with Barry because of the age difference and because Wally hadn't been there at the very beginning like Barry had. It has nothing to do with respect, really, because the senior JLA members had plenty of respect for Wally. The fact is, however, all of them knew him as a teenaged sidekick of Barry's for years, and despite the independent greatness that Wally achieved on his own, it's difficult to just forget that. It's simply how they related to him for many years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[phantom1592]

Clark and the others definitely respect and trust Wally...I don't suggest otherwise. Nevertheless, they can never quite truly relate to Wally as a *peer* (and vice-versa) the same way that they did with Barry because of the age difference and because Wally hadn't been there at the very beginning like Barry had. It has nothing to do with respect, really, because the senior JLA members had plenty of respect for Wally. The fact is, however, all of them knew him as a teenaged sidekick of Barry's for years, and despite the independent greatness that Wally achieved on his own, it's difficult to just forget that. It's simply how they related to him for many years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)



I would agree with that. As a hero they all respected Wally just fine. But when it comes down to it, how often do you see clark or Hal and Wally sitting in a diner grabbing a burger and hanging out. Hal and Barry used to do that all the time.

Wally used to hang out and go on vacation and stuff with Kyle and Connor and the titans, but I just don't see him socializing with Clark or Bruce,

[PastePotPete]

Am I overselling it? Yes, but I'm not finished.

While Wally is my favorite Flash (he was my first), and Bart is quickly growing on me, Barry is more iconic than either of them. I judge a character's "iconicness" on my ability to explain him/her to the general public. Wally: "You know how superheroes have sidekicks, like Batman and Robin? Well, imagine if Batman died, and the all growed up Robin had to take his place. That's who Wally is." Bart: "Imagine if Superman moved to the future to start a family, and Superboy took his place in the present, but then Superboy went away, and Superman's grandson from the future took over. That's who Bart is." Barry: "Imagine if a guy got hit by lightnin' and chemicals to become the fastest man alive. That's who Barry Allen is."

Wally and Bart are dependent on continuity for their existence, and Barry Allen in particular. If you want to shake things up without confusing readers with continuity, go to Barry Allen. He's a great character.

You're not overselling it. Cuz I'm not sold yet! Although you make a very good point about the origin. There's way more 'pop' in Barry's origin, than in the continuity-heavy backgrounds of the other two Flashes.

I think I'd be happy with Barry back as The Flash if they gave him the definitive personality he was missing in his old stories. I've been really impressed with how Geoff Johns took Hal Jordan, a character people had similar complaints about -(he has no personality!) and gave him a really well-drawn point-of-view. Johns gave Hal beliefs and behaviors that not only set him apart from the the other big guns of the DCU, but that actually make him a necessary component of that Universe. He's fearless. He's a cowboy. He's a risk-taker. He's a dice-roller. He has contempt for authority. He's the hero that goes with his gut. All of these qualities jive with his history and power set really well thanks to Johns. Also, no other hero in the DCU varsity was really filling this role when Hal was reintroduced.

So my next question would be: what kind of personality could they give Barry to make him unique and necessary? Is there another niche left in the DCU hierarchy? And what writer is going to give him that personality?

[sabongero]

Well there are also 52 other earths right now. Could Barry Allen be coming back from an Earth where he never died from?

At the same time if Marc Guggunheim is helming The Flash title at this time, he can infuse his police procedural and crime writing and add depth to Barry's polcie scientist character.

Or would The Barry Allen-Flash fans want Geoff Johns to write Barry's story since he had a great run and understood The Flash legacy very well. Also, what are the scribes going to do with Iris Allen ? She's like in her 70s right ?

[justcrash]

Well there are also 52 other earths right now. Could Barry Allen be coming back from an Earth where he never died from?

At the same time if Marc Guggunheim is helming The Flash title at this time, he can infuse his police procedural and crime writing and add depth to Barry's polcie scientist character.

Or would The Barry Allen-Flash fans want Geoff Johns to write Barry's story since he had a great run and understood The Flash legacy very well. Also, what are the scribes going to do with Iris Allen ? She's like in her 70s right ?

imho Johns or Waid would almost have to write Barry's retturn if it were to happen.

[Ian J.N.]

So my next question would be: what kind of personality could they give Barry to make him unique and necessary? Is there another niche left in the DCU hierarchy? And what writer is going to give him that personality?
Barry fills the niche of being the big name hero who isn't the two-fisted cowboy, or the social crusader, or the living symbol, or the avenger tormented by his past. Barry gets pegged as boring, because he's an ordered, thoughtful guy who does the right thing without needing to overcome his "issues." Actually, that's what makes him such an appealing character. Often, when the world is crashing down around you, you wish you could just step out of the drama, think it all through, and fix it. That's who Barry Allen is. He's the calm centre of the hurricane.

Incidentally, the calmer the centre, the bigger you can make the hurricane. That's another benefit to the character--big, colorful, imaginative stories.

[Buried Alien]

Barry fills the niche of being the big name hero who isn't the two-fisted cowboy, or the social crusader, or the living symbol, or the avenger tormented by his past. Barry gets pegged as boring, because he's an ordered, thoughtful guy who does the right thing without needing to overcome his "issues." Actually, that's what makes him such an appealing character. Often, when the world is crashing down around you, you wish you could just step out of the drama, think it all through, and fix it. That's who Barry Allen is. He's the calm centre of the hurricane.

Incidentally, the calmer the centre, the bigger you can make the hurricane. That's another benefit to the character--big, colorful, imaginative stories.

Very well taken. The DCU needs just such a character right now. In certain ways, even more than Superman, Barry Allen is the moral center of the DC Universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[mattx110]

Very well taken. The DCU needs just such a character right now. In certain ways, even more than Superman, Barry Allen is the moral center of the DC Universe.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

the moral center that was on trial for a murder he committed.

and if there is any character that should be brought back because of a reality-altering punch of crisis, it's barry. write in a "thank you for giving your life to preserve the universe, with this crisis, your sacrifice will have never happened, and you will have made the ultimate sacrific for the universe, so we can make a small sacrifice for you"
edit: were you always buried alien? i coulda sworn you were "buried allen" like "dead flash..."
oh well, i think i'm going nuts.

[Buried Alien]

the moral center that was on trial for a murder he committed.

But Barry was acquitted of that charge. He had killed Professor Zoom, but it was in the line of duty...while preventing Professor Zoom from killing yet another innocent person. Neither the law nor his peers in the superhero community ultimately held it against him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Blueferret]

But Barry was acquitted of that charge. He had killed Professor Zoom, but it was in the line of duty...while preventing Professor Zoom from killing yet another innocent person. Neither the law nor his peers in the superhero community ultimately held it against him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

He was acquited because Iris came back from the future and possesed the Jury Foreman. IIRC didn't the rest of the jury want to convict him? I've got to disagree that his peers didn't hold it against him.It came down to Superman deciding whether or not to kick him out of the JLA. They were split down the middle. I don't remember what way he voted, I don't think they ever showed it because Barry walked out. Also, Wally took the stand against him showing that there were a number of different ways he could have prevented Zoom from killing Fiona.

[Buried Alien]

He was acquited because Iris came back from the future and possesed the Jury Foreman. IIRC didn't the rest of the jury want to convict him? I've got to disagree that his peers didn't hold it against him.It came down to Superman deciding whether or not to kick him out of the JLA. They were split down the middle. I don't remember what way he voted, I don't think they ever showed it because Barry walked out. Also, Wally took the stand against him showing that there were a number of different ways he could have prevented Zoom from killing Fiona.

Superman voted to keep Barry in the League.

I think the vote went like this:

Green Arrow: In

Firestorm: In

Elongated Man: In

Wonder Woman: Out

Hawkman: Out

Aquaman: Out

Superman: In

But after that day, Barry never worked with the League again, so the point was kind of moot.

It also makes you wonder who was there during the Post-COIE, Pre-INFINITE CRISIS era when Wonder Woman was never a JLA member during the Silver/Bronze Age continuity years.

But in any case, since Barry's death in the Crisis, nobody has ever bothered to bring up the fact that he was nearly convicted of manslaughter once...or held it against him. They remember his career as a hero and his death saving the Multiverse/Universe, not that he accidentally killed while in the line of duty.

Compared to things that Superman, Wonder Woman, and others did later, Barry's killing of Zoom looks mild by comparison.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Blueferret]

Compared to things that Superman, Wonder Woman, and others did later, Barry's killing of Zoom looks mild by comparison.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

True, but there's the funny notion of this person that is supposed to be the paragon of Silver Age idealism actually committing the first act among the hero's(sp?) that would lead to the dark age of the late 80's early 90's.

That being said, I'd love to see Barry back as the Flash. He could assume a role similar to that of Captain America.

[Jack Zodiac]

edit: were you always buried alien? i coulda sworn you were "buried allen" like "dead flash..."
oh well, i think i'm going nuts.

S'long as I've known the guy. So... six years or so. "Buried Alien" is a joke about Barry from an issue of Quasar.

[Buried Alien]

Another thematic point to bring up in considering why now would be a good time for Barry Allen to return to the DCU as the Flash is the return of the Multiverse. Barry Allen's life was tied into the Multiverse more than any other character. He is generally considered the first Silver Age DC hero (some will argue for Superboy, the Martian Manhunter, or even Captain Comet, but the general consensus is that it's Barry-Flash). He discovered the Multiverse and began the tradition of parallel universe crossovers that all but defined the Silver Age. He discovered Earth-Prime. When he died, the Multiverse died with him.

In some ways, it almost seems like Multiverse and Barry Allen are synonymous, or at least symbiotic. It's probably no accident that in the backup story to this week's issue of COUNTDOWN (# 49), the Monitors discussed Barry's role in the discovery of the Multiverse. Back in COIE, the Anti-Monitor singled out Barry as the one being in the Multiverse (and this was a Multiverse with much more powerful beings such as Superman or the Spectre) that he was so afraid of that he had to abduct him and hold him prisoner early in the plan.

So now that the Multiverse is back, it's natural that Barry follows.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[mattx110]

Another thematic point to bring up in considering why now would be a good time for Barry Allen to return to the DCU as the Flash is the return of the Multiverse. Barry Allen's life was tied into the Multiverse more than any other character. He is generally considered the first Silver Age DC hero (some will argue for Superboy, the Martian Manhunter, or even Captain Comet, but the general consensus is that it's Barry-Flash). He discovered the Multiverse and began the tradition of parallel universe crossovers that all but defined the Silver Age. He discovered Earth-Prime. When he died, the Multiverse died with him.

In some ways, it almost seems like Multiverse and Barry Allen are synonymous, or at least symbiotic. It's probably no accident that in the backup story to this week's issue of COUNTDOWN (# 49), the Monitors discussed Barry's role in the discovery of the Multiverse. Back in COIE, the Anti-Monitor singled out Barry as the one being in the Multiverse (and this was a Multiverse with much more powerful beings such as Superman or the Spectre) that he was so afraid of that he had to abduct him and hold him prisoner early in the plan.

So now that the Multiverse is back, it's natural that Barry follows.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

this i definitely agree with. and barry only faltered after crossing the line. he served as an example to wally for years, and saved the universe/all the universes. pretty good for a murderer. him and hal were what it meant to be a hero. barry killed one guy and saved the universe. hal killed lots and nearly remade the universe. i know who i'm voting for.

[CMBMOOL]

Compared to things that Superman, Wonder Woman, and others did later, Barry's killing of Zoom looks mild by comparison.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Amen it was kinda odd knowning that WW wanted Barry out of league, when she wasn't involve with the Mindwipes or was that Superman ? :confused:


Also for her voting Barry out of the league, kinda contrast towards her actions against Max lord. :(


Anyhow I know very little about the Flash, but it seems by the Barry fans that he was a great guy in his time, so if this guy is what the modern times need, then I'm all for it. :D

[Blueferret]

this i definitely agree with. and barry only faltered after crossing the line. he served as an example to wally for years, and saved the universe/all the universes. pretty good for a murderer. him and hal were what it meant to be a hero. barry killed one guy and saved the universe. hal killed lots and nearly remade the universe. i know who i'm voting for.

I don't know if he crossed a line exactly. In black and white terms, yes, he took another life knowingly. The problem was, the situation wasn't black and white. Here's the background for anyone who doesn't know. Iris Allen, Barry's wife, was killed(Yes, she's still alive all these years later:eek: :eek: ) at a Halloween party by Zoom. Barry's a complete wreck. Flash-forward a few years and Barry finds happiness with Fiona Shaw(?) and is getting married. On his wedding day, Zoom shows up and he and Barry fight all over the world. The end result is that Zoom was going straight for Fiona and Barry had to make a decision t stop Zoom from taking another wife from him.

What would you do?

I thought that was the brilliance of the last two years of the Flash v1. There was a trial and people from all walks of life had an opinion on it. Surprisingly, not all chose what you thought they were. I thought Wally came off kind of looking like a weasel in the trial.

Just my opinion.

[Buried Alien]

I don't know if he crossed a line exactly. In black and white terms, yes, he took another life knowingly.

I'm not even sure it was so "knowingly." When the police came to arrest Barry for the killing of Professor Zoom, Barry was as shocked as everybody else that he had actually applied enough force to take Zoom's life (and he actually probably didn't apply that much force; it's just that both he and Zoom were moving at superspeed that made that chokehold fatal).


I thought that was the brilliance of the last two years of the Flash v1. There was a trial and people from all walks of life had an opinion on it. Surprisingly, not all chose what you thought they were.

I think TRIAL OF THE FLASH is an underrated story. It deserves to be collected as a TPB.


I thought Wally came off kind of looking like a weasel in the trial.

He did the best he could under difficult circumstances. Barry expected no less from him.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Blueferret]

I'm not even sure it was so "knowingly." When the police came to arrest Barry for the killing of Professor Zoom, Barry was as shocked as everybody else that he had actually applied enough force to take Zoom's life (and he actually probably didn't apply that much force; it's just that both he and Zoom were moving at superspeed that made that chokehold fatal).



Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

IIRC, didn't Barry say something to the effect of "Not Again! I won't allow this" or something like that?

[Billage]

Barry fills the niche of being the big name hero who isn't the two-fisted cowboy, or the social crusader, or the living symbol, or the avenger tormented by his past. Barry gets pegged as boring, because he's an ordered, thoughtful guy who does the right thing without needing to overcome his "issues." Actually, that's what makes him such an appealing character. Often, when the world is crashing down around you, you wish you could just step out of the drama, think it all through, and fix it. That's who Barry Allen is. He's the calm centre of the hurricane.

Incidentally, the calmer the centre, the bigger you can make the hurricane. That's another benefit to the character--big, colorful, imaginative stories.

Amen to that.The truth.

[mattx110]

IIRC, didn't Barry say something to the effect of "Not Again! I won't allow this" or something like that?

there was an issue where he fought the rainbow raider with green lantern.

he says something like "i don't know if i meant to kill him or not"
and green lantern could have pulled that out of his head with his ring, but he chose not to.

and then barry got a hot new lawyer cause his old one blew up.

[Captain Jim]

I agree with you completely about Barry's title the last few years before Crisis. But was that because the character was inherently boring, or because he was being mishandled by the creators at the time? I think it was the latter.

[Frankie Dennis]

IIRC, didn't Barry say something to the effect of "Not Again! I won't allow this" or something like that?

He screamed "NOT AGAIN! NOT AGAIN! NOT A-" Then he killed him.

[sabongero]

When Barry does come back, and it's on a regular basis not just for 1 calendar year of 12 issues worth of Barry, then I want his tragic flaws to be explored. It should make him more interesting.

The mindwipe fiasco in "Identity Crisis", they should explore why he favored mindwiping the super villains and Batman. Batman should be ticked off initially at Barry being back because of this, then generally warm up to him. Hal would definitely love to have Barry back.

Another is to have Barry reflect on The Flash Legacy. He left The Flash to be run by Wally. He should reflect on Wally's disappearance.

As for Bart, don't kill him off.

[jadehorde]

Except that Barry Allen remains a popular character with readers of DC Comics, only part of which are represented by people who have been reading since the Silver Age. Barry Allen has appeared in various books (i.e. THE NEW FRONTIER, JUSTICE, choice issues of the Mark Waid and Geoff Johns runs of THE FLASH, JLA YEAR ONE, etc.). There seems to be a great deal of denial going on that the Barry Allen character still holds a great amount of appeal to a good many people as an active, living character. This audience's wishes have been denied for too long in favor of the "keep Barry dead" audience, which might be more vehement, but is not demonstrably more numerous.



Of course, this presumes nobody wants to read about Barry Allen anymore...which is a presumption that isn't well supported.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Largely because most people aren't vested either way. I'd wager most people walking into a comic store is not going to be interested either way who the Flash is.

I think the bigger deal is to simply tell a good story. If that involves Barry fine, but I'm just not a fan of bringing people back from the dead. And if most of the audience doesn't care, why bother? You have 2-3 Flashes running around right now anyways, do we really need another?

I say move the legacy along. Tell the story through new eyes. With a new background, character, whatever.

[Nintendite]

I was doing a brain exercise of what the "Final Crisis" might be like (AKA I was doing a Fanfic in my head) and I came up with an interesting idea. Not sure if I even like it, since I like Jay Garrick so much, but it's an interesting idea.


Near the end of my hypothetical scenario, the JLA, JSA, Titans and a few other heroes face off with the resurgent Darkseid, who, although his plans of recreating the universe in his image and finding the anti-life equation have been foiled, is not going to leave planet Earth without dealing some type of retribution for it stopping his plans once again. The fight takes place on the Washington, DC mall, still having parts of it being rebuilt after the events of "Amazons Attack!". During the battle, Darkseid realizes that the JSA is inspiring all the heroes against him, even the JLA and Superman. So he decides to strike at them, especially their youth. He fires the Omega effect at Stargirl, but Jay Garrick runs in front of the effect and takes the shot meant for Stargirl. He is disintegrated, leaving only the iconic helmet behind. Several of the heroes fly into rages against Darkseid, but he only laughs and says: "And that is why I will triumph one day. I have no need for time, no need for rememberance... no need for your mortal sentimentality. I can wait. This is not a defeat... this is a delay. Next time."

The heroes would then mourn the wounded and the dead (Jay and several D-listers). Thne there'd be Jay's big funeral that would be so large and full of heroes it would make the Sue Dibny funeral from ID Crisis look like a minor gathering. But then it would be time for Jay's will to be read. And to Barry Allen, Jay leaves... his helmet. Taking off the hood of his suit, Barry would then put on the Flash Helmet and would from that point on essentially be in a modified Golden Age uniform. It'd serve to both show how Barry is to the silver age what Jay Garrick was to the Golden Age and it'd help differentiate Barry from Bart costume-wise.

Yeah, I'm not sure what I was thinking.


O, BTW, if Barry does come back, when the required "Batman wants blood and tissue samples' scene comes along, It'd be funny as hell if Ollie said something like: "Don't worry, he did this to me too."

[Blueferret]

Largely because most people aren't vested either way. I'd wager most people walking into a comic store is not going to be interested either way who the Flash is.

I think the bigger deal is to simply tell a good story. If that involves Barry fine, but I'm just not a fan of bringing people back from the dead. And if most of the audience doesn't care, why bother? You have 2-3 Flashes running around right now anyways, do we really need another?

I say move the legacy along. Tell the story through new eyes. With a new background, character, whatever.


Tell this to a H.E.A.T. member and see if they don't attack you.:D

[Citizen V]

I hope not.I think one of the most iconic covers of COIE was Barry on the cover."The Final Fate Of The Flash!".That was a huge thing,and i hope that never changes.

[Captain Jim]

I hope not.I think one of the most iconic covers of COIE was Barry on the cover."The Final Fate Of The Flash!".That was a huge thing,and i hope that never changes.

Not as much so as #7's cover with Superman holding the dead Supergirl. And we've had, what? Three Supergirls since then? So much for iconic covers.

[Buried Alien]

Not as much so as #7's cover with Superman holding the dead Supergirl. And we've had, what? Three Supergirls since then? So much for iconic covers.

And so much for the idea of not being able to proceed with new story ideas based on artificial limitations set by a single issue of a comic book published perhaps years before many of today's current readers were even born.

It's been more than twenty years. How much longer must the DCU be beholden to CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Ian J.N.]

I think the bigger deal is to simply tell a good story. If that involves Barry fine, but I'm just not a fan of bringing people back from the dead. And if most of the audience doesn't care, why bother? You have 2-3 Flashes running around right now anyways, do we really need another?
A reason to bother, I guess, is that characters the readers do care about rely on Barry Allen for context. Bart Allen has decided to follow in the legendary footsteps of his grandfather and now, in addition to his own archnemesis, faces the combined strength of his grandfather's villains. In understanding the relationship between Bart Allen and Barry Allen, Barry Allen and the Rogues Gallery, the "Full Throttle" story becomes something more than just Flash versus a formidable group of super-villains.

The reason why so few characters are created wholecloth in a shared universe is that you get stronger stories when you make use of backstories and pre-existing relationships. That's why Barry Allen has been a presence in the Flash title for twenty-plus years, and why that's not likely to change. It begs the question, though: If Barry is such a significant character, why not just bring him back and use him more directly? While Wally West was Flash, you could argue that it was Barry's death that made him so important. That's no longer the case. While Wally was trying to honor the memory of Barry, Bart, I think, is trying to win his approval. If such is the case, which makes for a stronger story, Bart looking off into the clouds thinking "I bet Grandpa Barry would be proud of this" or actual character interaction that illustrates the same thing?

(And of course, for those fans who are clamouring for Barry Allen, his return would allow for new stories to be told.)

[sabongero]

I am not familiar with Bart Allen's parents. Can anyone shed light on his parents. Which of his parents are tied genetically to Barry Allen ?

[Buried Alien]

I am not familiar with Bart Allen's parents. Can anyone shed light on his parents. Which of his parents are tied genetically to Barry Allen ?

Bart's father is one of the Tornado Twins, the chidren of Barry and Iris Allen (born in the 30th Century months after the death of Barry in the Crisis).


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Bored at 3:00AM]

While I would have prefered to see Barry remain the Patron Saint of Silver Age Heroes, but enough time has passed and the revolving door of death and rebirth has been played so many times at this point that it doesn't seem very fair for Barry to be the only hero who actually stayed dead.

You could concievably bring Barry back on a somewhat regular basis and he'd serve an interesting role within the DCU given his police forensics background, which apparently TV audiences can't get enough of. I would keep Barry in semi-retirement along with Wally though. Both of these characters have had decades worth of good stories told about them. It's time to let a new Flash take over. While Bart's tenure may have been a bit bumpy up to this point, Wally and Barry also had their respective dry spells too.

[Ian J.N.]

I would keep Barry in semi-retirement along with Wally though. Both of these characters have had decades worth of good stories told about them. It's time to let a new Flash take over. While Bart's tenure may have been a bit bumpy up to this point, Wally and Barry also had their respective dry spells too.
I tend to agree. However it is we got to this point, Bart is the new Flash, so hey, let's see where it goes. It's a whole new chapter.

Counter-intuitive, but that's the main reason why I'd like to see Barry return. So much of the previous chapter was rooted in Dead Barry Allen (DBA). If the title wants to be new and different and not retread the old ideas... take the dead speedster out of the equation. Don't just "downplay" or "find a new angle." Remove the DBA factor altogether.

[barbarous j]

sentimentally, i'd prefer it if barry stayed dead. his death was perfect. but it all depends on the story. originally, i didn't like that bru brought back bucky, but the story has been awesome, so i accept it. i didn't like that they brought back jason todd, the story's have been eh, so i wish he'd stayed dead.

[Velvis]

I love where DC comics have been going recently. They're now exploring the Silver Age "sense of wonder" using up-to-date storytelling techniques. Bringing back the trappings of sixties and seventies comics and using them in more sophisticated ways.

In this context, it makes sense to bring back the established iconic characters and concepts.

In 1986, the order of the day was "tear it down and start over". In 2006, it's more along the lines of, "Let's do what we were doing before, but do it better".

Unlike many, I was never that impressed by Barry's death in the Crisis. It always seemed to me that his death in that story fell flat emotionally. It seemed like market positioning rather than anything else. "Let's simplify the universe and pull readers over from Marvel".

Sure, bring back Barry. Or don't. I'm along for the ride either way, and I like what I'm reading.

[Kid Kyoto]

No, no, a thousand times, ten thousand times no.

No.

No.

No character is so special it's worth the damage to logic, drama and story telling to ressurect a forgotten character. If someone really needs Barry there's other Earths, time travel, out of continuity stories. We're well past the point where nothing in any comic means anything. Everything can be undone with the stroke of a pen. DC and Marvel should be rekilling their various lasaruses not brining back the few characters who are still dead.

That being said, Barry will be back this year, and the Waynes next year. You heard it here first.

[Buried Alien]

No character is so special it's worth the damage to logic, drama and story telling to ressurect a forgotten character.

Barry Allen? Forgotten? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kid Kyoto]

Barry Allen? Forgotten? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Yeah. Forgotten.

People know who he was and that he's dead but who can name his supporting cast? his greatest stories? 90% of fans can't since he's been dead for 20+ years!

The reasons to bring him back are better answerd by putting him in an All Star or other out of continuity timeless book. Just brining him back won't restore his supporting cast to their silver age positions, it won't put things back they way they were.

It also requires spending issue upon issue upon issue doing the actual ressurection, dealing with the consquences, doing stranger in a strange land stuff... all that stuff we've seen 100 times before. Look at Hal's return, which also required an illogical story that brought back EVERY GREEN LANTERN WHO EVER DIED! (turns out they were just sleeping).

People talk about how he'd be different for the 00s, he'd be CSI with superpowers or whatever, in which case why bother. Make a new character if you want something different.

But an independent story, then you can have him and Iris happily married, or just dating. You can bring in Wally as Barry's established sidekick, or as a supporting character who becomes Kid Flash or as a rebellious teen. You can have Bart as their bratty teen son with Barry's powers or not at all. The storytellers get to choose which aspects interest them.

Bringing Barry back to the mainstream actually restricts what can be done.

[sabongero]

You have a point there Kid Kyoto. I am trying to remember Barry's supporting cast, and all I can recall is Iris West Allen. Okay Wally West was Kid Flash at the time. The only story I seem to kind of recall was the one with Professor Zoom getting killed and Barry had to go through a trial which ended around the time his comic book run got cancelled and onto Crisis on Infinite Earth. That's all I can remember in my early grade school years when Barry was still alive at the mainstream DC Universe.

I mean there is also the Earth 2 discovery but I never really read that comic book as it was before my time. I just read it somewhere in the internet.

[The Shadow]

The argument that the dead should stay dead was more impressive before Jason and Bucky both came back.

Just to play devils advocate here... but Bucky's death was a retcon in Avengers #4 as he did originally survive the war... and even taking that out of consideration, he still "died"... he was just revived by those dastardly Russians.

[PastePotPete]

Barry fills the niche of being the big name hero who isn't the two-fisted cowboy, or the social crusader, or the living symbol, or the avenger tormented by his past. Barry gets pegged as boring, because he's an ordered, thoughtful guy who does the right thing without needing to overcome his "issues." Actually, that's what makes him such an appealing character. Often, when the world is crashing down around you, you wish you could just step out of the drama, think it all through, and fix it. That's who Barry Allen is. He's the calm centre of the hurricane.

Incidentally, the calmer the centre, the bigger you can make the hurricane. That's another benefit to the character--big, colorful, imaginative stories.

Okay. You guys have convinced me. I'd definitely like to read about a character like that.

But is that how they'd portray him today?

[Captain Jim]

Just to play devils advocate here... but Bucky's death was a retcon in Avengers #4 as he did originally survive the war... and even taking that out of consideration, he still "died"... he was just revived by those dastardly Russians.

Well, yes and no. Those early Marvel comics played pretty loose with 1940's continuity and essentially ignored the 1950's stories. They just vaguely acknowledged that Sub-Mariner and Captain America were around during WW2and totally ignored the original Human Torch. So, I suppose you could consider it a retcon, but that certainly wasn't Stan's intention at the time. Continuity between those old Timely stories and early 1960's Marvel was nigh non-existant.

Anyway, my point was that Bucky had long been left dead (for what, something like 45 years?) and that was considered pretty sacred and untouchable. Same with Jason (though for only about 20 years). And I probably could have added the name of Aunt May Parker.

It's like Bored said so well, "the revolving door of death and rebirth has been played so many times at this point that it doesn't seem very fair for Barry to be the only hero who actually stayed dead."

[astronato]

I'll take a Barry Allen Flash comic for sure. He's been gone so long, everything would be like new again. They could flesh out his character with modern day story telling and they could get a lot of mileage out of "hey, what have I missed?". I just doubt that is what is going to happen.

But, if the choice is killing off Bart to make way for Wally's return. I say stay with Bart. Wally had his time in the sun, and his stories were told in the modern fashion. Give Wally his heroic death. I'm sure Wally fans wont mind so much either after telling Barry fans to "get over it" for 20 plus years. ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Barry Allen? Forgotten? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Cleary him being the focus of a 1991 CBS TV Show and the potential to be the character in the Flash movie means he's forgotten now.

Barry's return was always there. It wasn't set in stone at all. Yeah he died but they had ways to fix it in case they wanted to bring him back down the line. They killed Supergirl ...but Barry was a late decision .

He's a CSI and can blend into Wally's old supporting cast of Morello and Thawne. He can return and Iris can be shocked that she has aged while Barry stayed young. Does love conquer this hurdle ? How does Barry feel seeing the woman he loves 20+ years older who has experinced pain and loss ?

Barry could have no clue he died in the 1st Crisis. He could debate his potential death and have to make a life for himself now. This is great story potential with a Barry Allen return. He can even wonder about trying to get Wally and Linda back too.

[sabongero]

No the thing is, if DC does decide to bring back Barry Allen for a regular monthly stay. Will it last for a while ?

But here's the thing, will it be the original Barry Allen or one of the Barry Allen's from the other "52 Earth's" coming back ?

[OzBat!]

But, if the choice is killing off Bart to make way for Wally's return. I say stay with Bart. Wally had his time in the sun, and his stories were told in the modern fashion. Give Wally his heroic death. I'm sure Wally fans wont mind so much either after telling Barry fans to "get over it" for 20 plus years. ;)I don't know too many people doing that. In fact, Barry's presence in the modern comic was an intangible but omnipresent fact for virtually the entire series, beginning with Wally's feelings of total inadequacy, lack of speed, frequent psychiatric visits and all of Barry's old villains constantly referring to him as 'KID' Flash. It wasn't until issue 50 that Wally regained some speed and surety about himself in the role, and it wasn't until the seminal "Return of Barry Allen" story culminating in #69 that he was sure he WAS the Flash and that Barry would approve, and then with Bart's appearance leading into the "Terminal Velocity" storyline Wally had to relive all his old mentor issues all over again.

I repeat, Wally fans have not been telling Barry fans to "get over it"; Barry Allen has never been far away from this book, and the reverence for him has been felt in practically every issue.

[OzBat!]

I also agree with kid Kyoto's assessment: to bring back Barry now would take some major contortions to reassemble his supporting cast, or set him up with an entirely new one. Something we've just done with Bart.

I'd love an All Stars title with Barry. But I think putting him back into the regular DCU wouldn't accomplish much, besides giving his fans a temporary healthy glow that "he's back!!" before the complaints start rolling in that it's not the same as before.

I also don't agree with the idea that, just because Bucky and Jason and a host of others have been resurrected, that Barry should be resurrected. If death has become a revolving door and it's cheapening the characters, you're not just going with the flow bringing Barry back, you're further perpetuating the problem. To my mind, the answer isn't"Barry shouldn't be the only one not brought back", but should instead be "Barry is the gold standard of what the heroic sacrifice really entails." Let it stand, let it actually MEAN something.

[Buried Alien]

I repeat, Wally fans have not been telling Barry fans to "get over it.

Ever been to the official DC Forums, Ozzie? ;)

Granted, some of the more militant Barry boosters over there bring it upon themselves to some extent, but still...

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Jack Zodiac]

Ever been to the official DC Forums, Ozzie? ;)

If he has any sense... nope! Then again, I've never known Oz to be the most sensible person, so... maybe? Either way, I'd never hold the official DC message board up as any kind of example of a fanbase. That place... it makes me want to kill the Internet.

[OzBat!]

If he has any sense... nope! Then again, I've never known Oz to be the most sensible person, so... maybe?Hey! I resemble that remark! Either way, I'd never hold the official DC message board up as any kind of example of a fanbase. That place... it makes me want to kill the Internet.In my mind, I excised the official DC boards from the intarwebz a long time ago.

[Captain Jim]

I'd love an All Stars title with Barry.

Oooo, now there's a GREAT idea!

[UniqueFrequency]

i'm not opposed to the idea, but i'd want Wally and Bart to be back in some capacity. Wally's proved himself and i do miss Bart as Impulse.

maybe i don't feel all the Barry love because when i picked up comics, Wally was already the Flash.

[Ring Slinger]

My LCS owner says that he heard a rumor that the big reveal in Flash #13 is going to be that...

You ready for this?

POSSIBLE SPOILERS IF THIS IS TRUE BUT IT MIGHT NOT BE SO USE YOUR OWN DESCRETION

Bart is Barry. Now, Bart's history is kind of convoluted and I'm no expert on it, but the idea is that something happened to Barry that catapulted him into the future and de-aged him and then aged him again at a rapid rate. Bart Allen is Barry Allen.


Does that sound like it could work to you guys? Probable? Improbable?

I think this would be a great disservice to both characters. Besides, if nothing else, they don't look like each other-- blonde hair, blue eyes vs. brown hair, yellow (?) eyes?

I think Barry's coming back-- with Flash #13 pushed back to coincide with JLA #10 (last issue of the Lightning Saga), it seems too coincidental for the Legion not trying to bring Barry back (but why now is the real question). Furthermore, the current JLA is missing a speedster, and Barry would be a great fit-- in fact, if Barry comes back and joins the JLA, we have 6 of 8 (or 5 of 7 without the retcon and excuse Black Canary) founding members back in the League: Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Dinah, and Barry. Something to think about...

[Jack Zodiac]

It also falls in line with Meltzer's infatuation with the Silver Age Justice League and his statement that, by the end of his run, the team will have an eleventh member- so Geoforce might not be sticking around.

[JamesJesse]

I was once adamantly against Barry's return because Wally was doing such a great job. However, things change and now more than ever, Barry's return might really shake things up for the Flash again.

There's an opporunity to make him more CSI than boring hick. I really like how they wrote him in JLA Year One and in New Frontier.

BUT... I don't want Barry back until they give us closure on Wally.

I am a big Wally West fan and I still find the ending/shelving of the guy unrewarding. At least I had closure when Barry died. (I was a big Barry Allen fan then)

Now, here's the deal. Finish Wally's story properly THEN bring back Barry.
You don't have to kill Wally. Just give him a good swan song. His departure was... well, unsatisfying.

As for Bart? Man, he was the best KID FLASH ever. I dropped Titans after they killed him. Now, I have no idea how we can get him back to that state.

[DC/Marvelfan]

That'll be great to have Barry back, it's just right. Just as Hal should be GL and Clark should be Supes , and Wayne as Batman, it's just as how it should be.

[Captain Jim]

As for Bart? Man, he was the best KID FLASH ever.

I agree. DC messed up big time when they promoted him to being Flash prematurely.

[DonC]

With all this speculation about Barry coming back in some form, I have a question: Can it be done in a way that will live up to all the hype? I've read some of the theories (Barry actually is Bart; Barry from that IC-universe is going to appear) and, to be perfectly honest, they're lame. Can DC Comics bring back Barry Allen in a way that isn't a cop out on par with retcon punches? And what happens if they do bring him back? His identity has been known for years. He can't just show up at work one day and saying, "Hey, guys, I'm back. What'd I miss?"

[phantom1592]

With all this speculation about Barry coming back in some form, I have a question: Can it be done in a way that will live up to all the hype? I've read some of the theories (Barry actually is Bart; Barry from that IC-universe is going to appear) and, to be perfectly honest, they're lame. Can DC Comics bring back Barry Allen in a way that isn't a cop out on par with retcon punches?

No they can't. It doesn't matter how well a resurection is done. People SOMEWHERE will complain about it being lame. Personally I thought GL Rebirth was a masterpiece of a story. It covered Hal's death, it explained all the out of character things that happened, it added new things to the background, but it did so by USING the established Mythology. Honestly I can't think of ANYTHING that they should have done that wasn't. It was damn near perfect.

Still I hear people complaining about the "yellow fear-monster cop out"

SO to answer your question... No, many people will think it is "lame"



And what happens if they do bring him back? His identity has been known for years. He can't just show up at work one day and saying, "Hey, guys, I'm back. What'd I miss?"

That is something I'm curious about too. IS Barry's ID known? I remember reading a few stories where someone made a comment about how they worked to keep Barrys name a secret. Nobody made a big deal about that during the great "return of Barry Allen" story. Has his ID been revealed since then? If I were to take bets, I would say that they will just "gloss" over that like they did with Green Lantern. Everyone refered to him has Hal, or Jordan, while he was dead. Heck Pieface was blabbing in a bar. Next thing he's back and nobody knows nothing ;)

Secondly.... So what if people DO know the name? Names are pretty common. I just had an employee named Don Allen. Trust me... he wasn't a speedster. :) (may have been from the future... never asked him....) So what if a scientist named Barry Allen applies for a job at the police station. HECK now that I think about... Barry was always Central City. Didnt' the flash books move over to Keystone or somewhere else? If they dont' try to cram him directly into his old life and old cast, who would ever know?

[Kelson]

That is something I'm curious about too. IS Barry's ID known? I remember reading a few stories where someone made a comment about how they worked to keep Barrys name a secret. Nobody made a big deal about that during the great "return of Barry Allen" story. Has his ID been revealed since then?

Barry's ID became publicly known after his death, though the circumstances vary from telling to telling. There were memorial statues to "The Flash - Barry Allen," and I think his gravestone (not that there was a body) had the Flash symbol on it. At the end of "Blitz," when Hal/Spectre erased public knowledge of Wally's ID, he erased knowledge of Barry's ID as well, even altering inscriptions on those statues.

So at this point, the public does not know who the second or third Flashes were. It's not clear how many of them know that the current Flash is a new guy, or whether they think he was just missing for a year like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman.

There's a great article, The Flashes' Secret Ids Going Public (http://www.comicbookbin.com/wally01.html), that goes into the whole history. I really ought to re-read it sometime.

[The Shadow]

It doesn't matter how well a resurection is done. People SOMEWHERE will complain about it being lame.
Bucky's return, while met with resistance, wasn't called lame at all.
In fact, from a personal standpoint, it's one of the best resurrection stories I've ever read... and I HATED the idea. With a passion. But goddamn was it a good story.

Personally I thought GL Rebirth was a masterpiece of a story.
You need to read more comics ;)

Still I hear people complaining about the "yellow fear-monster cop out"
... because it was a cop out.

It basically gave him a "Get out of jail FREE card" and absolved him of all his transgressions without any repercussions.

Personally I think Barry should stay dead. his death in Crisis was marvelous and DC gains nothing by bringing him back... except the happy, aging fanboys they are appealing to now.

[Buried Alien]

except the happy, aging fanboys they are appealing to now.

Let's not go there, shall we?

Not only is it demeaning to an entire group of readers who have done nothing to deserve being demeaned, but it's also not even a fair assessment of why these comics should/should not be published.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Besides, you should respect your elders! :p

[The Shadow]

Let's not go there, shall we?

Not only is it demeaning to an entire group of readers who have done nothing to deserve being demeaned, but it's also not even a fair assessment of why these comics should/should not be published.[/COLOR]

... I'M an AGING FANBOY!!!! :D

Most of the comic readers today are aging fanboys.

Would you prefer "Mature readers"? LOL ;) The sentiment still stands.

[DonC]

You guys aren't old. You're Silver Aged. ;)

[sabongero]

Marc Guggenheim adding Bart Allen's job in law enforcement, will this be in some way tied to Bart Allen being Barry Allen when he is brought back as a police scientist. Perhaps Guggenheim is covering all angles to make sure that the transition from Bart to Barry runs smoothly.

[Captain Jim]

You guys aren't old. You're Silver Aged. ;)

Only my hair. ;)

[Kelson]

Marc Guggenheim adding Bart Allen's job in law enforcement, will this be in some way tied to Bart Allen being Barry Allen when he is brought back as a police scientist. Perhaps Guggenheim is covering all angles to make sure that the transition from Bart to Barry runs smoothly.

If they try to explain that Bart is Barry, I will probably drop the book. It really is that insulting an idea.

I guess I'll have to post the lyrics to "I'm My Own Grandpa" on my site and walk away from it.

[sabongero]

I am still going with my original hunch. They will bring back Barry Allen. Then they will somehow make the story gel that Bart is Barry. But then after a run of issues...they will conclude it that the returning Barry Allen is not the original Barry Allen. But he is Barry Allen...from one of the other 52 Earths. And that Bart is indeed Bart Allen, the grandson of Barry and Iris Allen.

[justcrash]

If they try to explain that Bart is Barry, I will probably drop the book. It really is that insulting an idea.

I guess I'll have to post the lyrics to "I'm My Own Grandpa" on my site and walk away from it.

I didn't know that was your site! I LOVE that site! WALLY FOREVER! :p

[Jack Zodiac]

Kelson, you run Hyperborea? If so, much respect for having one of the best, most informative supehero sites out there, man.

[justcrash]

Kelson, you run Hyperborea? If so, much respect for having one of the best, most informative supehero sites out there, man.

+10000000 I love that site!

[CBikle]

I like Barry Allen as a character, but like him more as a dead character, basically a nice guy and tragic figure.

Barry is the most interesting when other characters nostalgically talk about him.

[Violently Apathetic]

I have to fourth the love for Hyperborea. I am a relatively new Flash fan and it (as well as Crimson Lightning) was a great asset when it came to random info and filling in the gaps. Kudos to you, Kelson.

As for 'the return of Barry', well, I'm not as averse to the idea as I was previously, but I still can't shake the feeling it's just pandering to fans and won't really have any long term positive impact on the comics. However I wouldn't mind being proven wrong.

[jadehorde]

Tell this to a H.E.A.T. member and see if they don't attack you.:D

And we got the Yellow Fear monster. So...awesome.

[Buried Alien]

I like Barry Allen as a character, but like him more as a dead character, basically a nice guy and tragic figure.

Barry is the most interesting when other characters nostalgically talk about him.

I see that as the problem.

It shouldn't be that way.

Barry Allen wasn't created to be a dead icon. For thirty years, he wasn't. Some argue quite legitimately that those were the best thirty years of mainstream superhero comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

I I still can't shake the feeling it's just pandering to fans.

"Sigh." For the 1,141st (or so) time, people, it's called "making fans happy," not "pandering to fans."

*Pounds head on wall.*

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kelson]

Thanks, everyone!

Here's hoping that, whatever they turn out to be, the "big changes" in store will at the very least be told well.

[sabongero]

If they try to explain that Bart is Barry, I will probably drop the book. It really is that insulting an idea.

I guess I'll have to post the lyrics to "I'm My Own Grandpa" on my site and walk away from it.

Kelson, you are correct that it is an insulting idea. And Bart better end up Bart and they must have a more feasible idea bringing Barry Allen back.

I am still hanging on my hunch, that the return of Barry Allen this time will only be for several story arcs. And that the truth will come out that he is from one of the 52 multiverse Earths.

Either that, or perhaps Bart Allen breaches the end of the DC Universe and comes into contact with Pietro Maximoff. And he hangs out with Pietro for a year while Barry from Earth 3:16 takes over for him in the DC Universe. And the Final Crisis becomes the next mega event interspersed with Marvel's mega event and we have the Marvel & DC Crossover of the decade.

And all that, just to explain the return of Barry Allen.

Sorry guys I got carried away.

FYI Kelson, great website. Those were nice stories on your fan fiction section. It was a great read man.

[Violently Apathetic]

"Sigh." For the 1,141st (or so) time, people, it's called "making fans happy," not "pandering to fans."

*Pounds head on wall.*

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Ouch, don't hurt yourself.

And I agree, it IS making a select group of fans happy...by pandering to them. There is no real logical reason for bringing Barry back, the most common response to the quesion 'why?' when it comes to his return is simply 'why not?' If he does return it would be to make a certain group of fans happy, which is pandering because it appeals to emotions. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, it's good business and its not like pandering and good stories are mutally exclusive, I simply feel that when it comes to bringing a character back (and likely displacing another) there should be a greater motivation than just 'this will make x number of fans happy,' especially if it will make another group of fans unhappy.

Again, I'm not overly bothered by the idea of bringing Barry back and I'm glad that it will make his fans happy since they've been remarkably patient.

[jam]

Couldn't there be a DC world which is the old Earth-1 but one upon which the Crisis never happened?

Barry would still be alive there ...

[CBikle]

I see that as the problem.

It shouldn't be that way.

Barry Allen wasn't created to be a dead icon. For thirty years, he wasn't. Some argue quite legitimately that those were the best thirty years of mainstream superhero comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I think that had more to with the Flash and the stories, rather than his ID of Barry Allen, who was more a likeable, but unexciting byproduct of the Kennedy-esque silver age that he was a part of.

Barry's death was what kept The Flash from being cancelled.

When writers drastically change an aspect to a character, sometimes they miss the boat (Spider-Clone saga, Parallax, etc), but sometimes they stumble onto the right angle that works(radical Green Arrow, Spider Man & Wolverine joining the Avengers, Barbara Gordon becoming Oracle).

Barry Allen is definitely more popular as the nice guy hero who died tragically and heroically, than he was in the last few years of his wn comic.

[Captain Jim]

The publishers don't make decisions like this just to make fans happy. They do this sort of thing when and if they think it will result in more sales and make them more money. Simple as that.

[pauwoo]

I cant wait for him to come back, if that is going to be the case, I already have my green arrow and green lantern back, with the retun of Hal and Ollie in recent years.

[Buried Alien]

The publishers don't make decisions like this just to make fans happy. They do this sort of thing when and if they think it will result in more sales and make them more money. Simple as that.

Of course, logic dictates that happy fans generally translate into increased comic book sales, which in turn leads to increased revenue. Unhappy fans generally don't shell out for books that don't make them happy.

I mean, how many people go: "I hate this book. It doesn't make me happy. Here's my $3.00 to buy it so it can fail to make me happy."? :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Ian J.N.]

And I agree, it IS making a select group of fans happy...by pandering to them. There is no real logical reason for bringing Barry back, the most common response to the quesion 'why?' when it comes to his return is simply 'why not?' If he does return it would be to make a certain group of fans happy, which is pandering because it appeals to emotions.
It's an assumption to say that Barry's return (read: new Barry Allen stories) would pander only to a select group of fans. That's like saying Justice panders to fans of the Superfriends cartoon, or that New Frontier panders to middle-agers nostalgic for the Silver Age. Both projects were a commercial and critical success. If that's what pandering is, hot damn, serve me up some more!

It's worth noting, too, that both (non-pandering) stories count Barry Allen among the characters. He's especially prominant in the Eisner, Harvey and Shuster Award-winning New Frontier. Really, there is no doubt in my mind that Barry Allen is still a viable character. The question is how is he put to best use? When twenty years have passed, and the heroic Crisis death Flash cries about is Superboy's... maybe it's time to take Barry off the shelf.

[Violently Apathetic]

It's an assumption to say that Barry's return (read: new Barry Allen stories) would pander only to a select group of fans. That's like saying Justice panders to fans of the Superfriends cartoon, or that New Frontier panders to middle-agers nostalgic for the Silver Age. Both projects were a commercial and critical success. If that's what pandering is, hot damn, serve me up some more!


I didn't mean to imply that Barry Allen stories would only APPEAL to a select group of fans, only that the action of bringing him back comes across as pandering to those who specifically want it. As I said, I don't really see the point of having him running around in the main DCU, but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy stories that involve him should he return. Even making the argument that Justice and New Frontier pander to the ‘Silver Age nostalgia’ crowd doesn't affect their appeal to those outside of their target demographic. A good story is a good story.

[Captain Jim]

Of course, logic dictates that happy fans generally translate into increased comic book sales, which in turn leads to increased revenue. Unhappy fans generally don't shell out for books that don't make them happy.

I mean, how many people go: "I hate this book. It doesn't make me happy. Here's my $3.00 to buy it so it can fail to make me happy."? :confused:

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

You're right, of course, but I was responding primarily to the accusation that DC was trying to pander to a small group of fans.

[Kelson]

I mean, how many people go: "I hate this book. It doesn't make me happy. Here's my $3.00 to buy it so it can fail to make me happy."? :confused:

Judging by the internet, quite a few! ;)

[Ian J.N.]

I didn't mean to imply that Barry Allen stories would only APPEAL to a select group of fans, only that the action of bringing him back comes across as pandering to those who specifically want it. As I said, I don't really see the point of having him running around in the main DCU, but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy stories that involve him should he return. Even making the argument that Justice and New Frontier pander to the ‘Silver Age nostalgia’ crowd doesn't affect their appeal to those outside of their target demographic. A good story is a good story.

Here's a summation of why (and not "why not") I think Barry Allen should return:

1. After twenty years, Dead Barry Allen has been milked for all it's worth. Unless DC plans to have the character fade into obscurity, it's time to find a new angle. (Note: Barry is *never* going to fade into obscurity. Everytime Bart ruminates on his heritage, or the Rogues remember the good ol' days, or we get a "classic" JLA story... Barry will be there. Barry Allen died twenty-two years ago and has yet to disappear into limbo. There's a reason for that).

2. Bart and Wally are both motivated by the example set by Barry Allen, but whereas Wally was greatly affected by Barry's death, Bart never really knew him. The surest way to distinguish Bart's Flash from Wally's is to exploit that difference. Remove Dead Barry Allen from the equation and Bart, like magic, becomes a completely different character.

3. Moreover, it makes for a stronger story having Bart interact with his role model directly. Enough with the time travel shenanigans! If it's not vital to Bart's character that Barry be dead, bring him back. Let's see some solid character interaction.

4. In a shared universe, few characters are created wholecloth, and the reason for that is because stories are stronger when you can play off backstory and pre-existing relationships. Consider Barry Allen: The immediate connections are to Flash and Green Lantern--by extension, GLC. As an old-school JLA member (the oldest-schooler), he can be connected to Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Atom, and Black Canary--by extension, Birds of Prey. He's connected to Jay Garrick--by extension, JSA. By way of Wally West, he's connected to Nightwing and Teen Titans. His time-jumping and (future) family history can connect him to Legion. His universe-jumping can connect him to Countdown. As an experienced superhero mentor, he could be played off newbie heroes like Blue Beetle and Supergirl. As the Dudliest of Do-Rights he could be a foil for "extreme" or amoral heroes like Outsiders, Manhunter and Checkmate. As an uber-science nerd he could be a foil for the magic-oriented Shadowpact.

Obviously, some of those connections are stronger than others, but the point is, there's always some angle that can be exploited. The mark of a good character is in how usuable they are. Barry Allen can connect with every DCU title.

5. At his core, though, Barry Allen is just a guy who was struck by lightning 'n chemicals to become the fastest man alive. By day, Barry is a boring scientist of a man, but by, uh, midday, he lives out the four-coloured, larger-than-life adventures of The Flash, with gimmick-laden supervillains, parallel dimensions, talking gorillas and the like. When you look at the concepts of other heroes, you have the dynamic of weak vs. strong (Clark Kent/Superman) and carefree vs. tormented (Bruce Wayne/Batman). The concept underlying Barry Allen, though--boring vs. imaginative and exciting--really captures the essence of what comic books are about. Again, another mark of a good character, and a reason why Barry shouldn't be languishing in the grave.

And... that's all I have to say about the subject. Take it as you will.

[PastePotPete]

Here's a summation of why (and not "why not") I think Barry Allen should return:

1. After twenty years, Dead Barry Allen has been milked for all it's worth. Unless DC plans to have the character fade into obscurity, it's time to find a new angle. (Note: Barry is *never* going to fade into obscurity. Everytime Bart ruminates on his heritage, or the Rogues remember the good ol' days, or we get a "classic" JLA story... Barry will be there. Barry Allen died twenty-two years ago and has yet to disappear into limbo. There's a reason for that).

2. Bart and Wally are both motivated by the example set by Barry Allen, but whereas Wally was greatly affected by Barry's death, Bart never really knew him. The surest way to distinguish Bart's Flash from Wally's is to exploit that difference. Remove Dead Barry Allen from the equation and Bart, like magic, becomes a completely different character.

3. Moreover, it makes for a stronger story having Bart interact with his role model directly. Enough with the time travel shenanigans! If it's not vital to Bart's character that Barry be dead, bring him back. Let's see some solid character interaction.

4. In a shared universe, few characters are created wholecloth, and the reason for that is because stories are stronger when you can play off backstory and pre-existing relationships. Consider Barry Allen: The immediate connections are to Flash and Green Lantern--by extension, GLC. As an old-school JLA member (the oldest-schooler), he can be connected to Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Arrow, Aquaman, Atom, and Black Canary--by extension, Birds of Prey. He's connected to Jay Garrick--by extension, JSA. By way of Wally West, he's connected to Nightwing and Teen Titans. His time-jumping and (future) family history can connect him to Legion. His universe-jumping can connect him to Countdown. As an experienced superhero mentor, he could be played off newbie heroes like Blue Beetle and Supergirl. As the Dudliest of Do-Rights he could be a foil for "extreme" or amoral heroes like Outsiders, Manhunter and Checkmate. As an uber-science nerd he could be a foil for the magic-oriented Shadowpact.

Obviously, some of those connections are stronger than others, but the point is, there's always some angle that can be exploited. The mark of a good character is in how usuable they are. Barry Allen can connect with every DCU title.

5. At his core, though, Barry Allen is just a guy who was struck by lightning 'n chemicals to become the fastest man alive. By day, Barry is a boring scientist of a man, but by, uh, midday, he lives out the four-coloured, larger-than-life adventures of The Flash, with gimmick-laden supervillains, parallel dimensions, talking gorillas and the like. When you look at the concepts of other heroes, you have the dynamic of weak vs. strong (Clark Kent/Superman) and carefree vs. tormented (Bruce Wayne/Batman). The concept underlying Barry Allen, though--boring vs. imaginative and exciting--really captures the essence of what comic books are about. Again, another mark of a good character, and a reason why Barry shouldn't be languishing in the grave.

And... that's all I have to say about the subject. Take it as you will.

Okay, now I'm really sold. Bring Barry back.

Great points, Constant.

[Kid Kyoto]

Still not sold.

Any qualities people ascribe to a reborn Barry can just as easily be done with a new character or by evolving an existing, non-dead one.

Drama requires confilict and consquences, every gratuitous ressurection makes me care less and less about what happens next since it reminds me that it can all be undone.

[DoctorDoom]

The only way the 'Lightning Saga' in Jla/Jsa could end (for me at least) is the return of Barry Allen.

[Violently Apathetic]

All very good points, constant, and that last one especially has me very intrigued. However because I'm bored allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment.

Here's a summation of why (and not "why not") I think Barry Allen should return:

1. After twenty years, Dead Barry Allen has been milked for all it's worth. Unless DC plans to have the character fade into obscurity, it's time to find a new angle. (Note: Barry is *never* going to fade into obscurity. Everytime Bart ruminates on his heritage, or the Rogues remember the good ol' days, or we get a "classic" JLA story... Barry will be there.

Great, so why not keep him there? DC occasionally presents its universe as something that is steadily marching forward through time. It is not a static universe in any sense and the characters react to the changing world around them as the DC universe evolves. As you mentioned, the Rogues constantly complain that the world around them is not the same as it once was, not even the Flash is the same, and this helps to drive home the idea that time has passed. When various characters reflect on where they are now they can always look back at Barry to see where and how they used to be. Now I can understand why some people aren't happy that Barry has become a symbol of a bygone age when they enjoyed him as a character, but I personally don't see the problem. It's not like it prevents him from being used in stories (JLA: Year One, New Frontier, Justice, etc...) and his appearances in those stories help to make the contrast between him and subsequent Flashes that much stronger. Besides, you say yourself in point 5 that Barry is ‘boring,’ so couldn’t it be argued that becoming something greater than just a man is the best thing that could have happened to him.

The Flash is one of the few cases when the mantle was passed successfully from one character to another. It didn't really work with Green Lantern and like Hell it will ever happen with Batman or Superman. Bringing Barry back isn’t exactly setting the reset button, because obviously DC won’t try to pretend that Wally and Bart never existed, but it does seem like a step back to me. Indeed it almost seems like an attempt to say that they’re bringing back ‘the real Flash’ and that Wally and Bart were nothing but place holders. I can’t speak for Bart fans, but as a Wally West fan I’m not thrilled with the implication. Just as, I'm sure, Barry Allen fans aren't thrilled with the idea that the character they like is valuable only as a symbol.

(Barry Allen died twenty-two years ago and has yet to disappear into limbo. There's a reason for that).

I assume its similar to the reason why Thomas and Martha Wayne haven't faded into obscurity and are constantly mentioned, they help to define a surviving character (in this case, Batman). While the comparison isn't completely accurate (the Waynes were catalysts, they likely couldn't hold a book on their own) I do think it is somewhat apt. Barry is something Bart and Wally can aspire to be, a constant reminder of what a true hero is. In a way Barry was Wally's catalyst to becoming the Flash.

(2. Bart and Wally are both motivated by the example set by Barry Allen, but whereas Wally was greatly affected by Barry's death, Bart never really knew him. The surest way to distinguish Bart's Flash from Wally's is to exploit that difference. Remove Dead Barry Allen from the equation and Bart, like magic, becomes a completely different character.

Only if you believe Bart's personality is defined only by his relationship with Barry. Bringing Barry back now wouldn't fundamentally change who Bart is, it would simply give the writer's another angle to work from. No, I think the surest way to distinguish Bart from Wally is to make them distinct personalities and not treat them as if their personalities depend on Barry somehow.

3. Moreover, it makes for a stronger story having Bart interact with his role model directly. Enough with the time travel shenanigans! If it's not vital to Bart's character that Barry be dead, bring him back. Let's see some solid character interaction.

It's not vital to Bart's character that he be able to interact with his role model either. Instead of reinforcing the idea that he's living in Barry's shadow why not try to move him out from under it?

4. In a shared universe, few characters are created wholecloth, and the reason for that is because stories are stronger when you can play off backstory and pre-existing relationships.

Obviously, some of those connections are stronger than others, but the point is, there's always some angle that can be exploited. The mark of a good character is in how usuable they are. Barry Allen can connect with every DCU title.

Well obviously Bart didn't exist in a vacuum, he has ties to other characters as well. Rather than using the excuse that Barry can be tied to more characters I think it would be more interesting to have Bart attempt to forge more relationships. It seems to me that you're almost making the argument that Barry is preferable because he's easier, the writers don't have to do all the hard work of creating relationships, creating a supporting cast and writing a distinct and seperate personality because with Barry they already exist, it comes prepackaged.

5. At his core, though, Barry Allen is just a guy who was struck by lightning 'n chemicals to become the fastest man alive. By day, Barry is a boring scientist of a man, but by, uh, midday, he lives out the four-coloured, larger-than-life adventures of The Flash, with gimmick-laden supervillains, parallel dimensions, talking gorillas and the like. When you look at the concepts of other heroes, you have the dynamic of weak vs. strong (Clark Kent/Superman) and carefree vs. tormented (Bruce Wayne/Batman). The concept underlying Barry Allen, though--boring vs. imaginative and exciting--really captures the essence of what comic books are about. Again, another mark of a good character, and a reason why Barry shouldn't be languishing in the grave.


I admit, this is a VERY good point and something I hadn't really thought of. However there is one thing I disagree with, I'm not sure Barry is any more an 'everyman' character than Wally (Bart is another story). Granted, Wally grew up surrounded by superheroes so his experiences that way separate him from the common man, but Barry has died, traveled through time and witnessed the destruction a multiple Earths. Any character can be the straight man who watches the weirdness unfold around him, I don't think that's distinct to Barry. I hope Barry's major selling point isn't 'the boring guy who reacts to stuff,' because to me it would make more sense to use Wally because then you have the 'mildly interesting but down to Earth guy who reacts to stuff,' someone who is interesting in costume and out.

I've found Barry is a LOT of fun in ensemble books like JLA: Year One where his mild mannered personality is contrasted to more dynamic characters. I'm just not sure how enthusiastic I'd be to read a book in which he's the star. I've found that when he's the main character I tend to look to his supporting cast, specifically the Rogues, to keep me interested.

Yeah, I think I've babbled long enough. I do feel I need to apologize to anyone who has offended by previous generalizing. I didn't mean to sound so dismissive of Barry Allen's fans. I'm pretty emotionally removed from Barry, I was only about a year old when Infinite Crisis started, so all I know about Barry is coloured by hindsight and that may prevent me on occasion from giving a completely fair assessment of the character. In any event, I am sorry if I trivialized people's reasons for wanting him back, that was wrong.

[Paul Dee]

*Pounds head on wall.*


Aha! So that's how you're bringing him back from the dead!

[sabongero]

Guys I just found out that Barry Allen is alive and well on our Earth. He is currently in Sydney, Australia. He is a broker in the logistics industry. I just spoke with him.

However, I am not sure if he still has his speed powers in Earth 1.0 [Real Earth].

Now if I can just somehow get him to DC's primary Earth to touch base with Bart Allen to get him up to speed. No pun intended.

[Kelson]

I'd recommend reading Newsarama's interview with Mark Waid (http://www.newsarama.com/heroes_philly07/DC/flash.html). There's a note about "The Lightning Saga" in there.

[Kid Kyoto]

The only way the 'Lightning Saga' in Jla/Jsa could end (for me at least) is the return of Barry Allen.

OK. But only if Jor-El and Lara come back next year.
Then Thomas and Martha Wayne.

[justcrash]

I'd recommend reading Newsarama's interview with Mark Waid (http://www.newsarama.com/heroes_philly07/DC/flash.html). There's a note about "The Lightning Saga" in there.
So Waids back? I may get on board then.:cool:

[Velvis]

I surmise the reason the new one-shot will be called "All-Flash" is not only a tribute to the Golden Age title, but the fact that ALL the Flashes will be in it. (Jay, Barry, Wally, and Bart).

[Speed Force]

I'm Jay Garrick's dad, and I want to chime in....

Barry Allen is dead, he died saving the world, and that's the story...
Leave him be, and let him rest in peace...

Rich
(Also Father to Carter Hall & Hal Jordon)

[yoda510]

since the Flash is going back to the old numbering I think it may be safe to assume that Wally is coming back.

[justcrash]

since the Flash is going back to the old numbering I think it may be safe to assume that Wally is coming back.

MAN that would make me happy. :)

[Captain Jim]

since the Flash is going back to the old numbering I think it may be safe to assume that Wally is coming back.

Sounds more to me like jumping to conclusions.

[yoda510]

well that is about the only reason I could see to jump back to the old numbering...if it was anyone else why not just restart the series again...my guess is they want Wally for the eventual Flash movie.

[Captain Jim]

Of course, the people who are telling you right now that they'll resume Wally's old numbering are the same people who told you there'd be a Flash #14 & 15.

[yoda510]

Well I am sure if they had any idea that Guggenheim's run would be this well received they probably wouldn't have done anything...it is so hard with comics because it takes so long to create a comic that you already have several issues completed (hopefully) before you really start getting feedback...So I am sure this plan really came about when Bilson's run tanked...but DC will never admit this...of course this was the plan all along, to cancel the old Flash, restart it, then go back only after 13 issues...right

[Buried Alien]

Barry Allen is dead, he died saving the world, and that's the story...
Leave him be, and let him rest in peace...

No, no, no, no, and no.

I'm sick of dead Barry Allen. The "We Like Barry Allen Dead" people have had their way for the past twenty-two years. Enough is enough. It's time for the other side to get to play with the ball.

I've been patient for years, but my patience on this is about played out.

Barry Allen, alive again (as the Flash or not): now.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

MAN that would make me happy. :)

Not me. I didn't come all this way and buy all these comics over the past two years just to end up back where I started two years ago.


Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[david r]

I'm feeling sure Barry Allen is back. I think Mark Waid would only return to the Flash book if it was Barry back in the red costume.

I also believe Mark when he says this has been in the works over a year. The only reason Marc Guggenheim came on the title was due to 52 taking up so much of Mark Waid's time and they had to wait until 52 was finished.

[satchmo the dragon]

Booo. Learn to write new stories. Barry Allen has come back like 10 times now, let him stay dead.

[Buried Alien]

Booo. Learn to write new stories. Barry Allen has come back like 10 times now, let him stay dead.

No. Barry's previous "comebacks" have been gimmicky guest spots. NOT what I and others are looking for.

And new stories can (and in my opinion should) feature Barry Aleln.

And "let him stay dead" is the most tired cliche on this subject now. The reasons that might have supported it before no longer have the persuasive power they once did.

I've had enough: Barry returns, or count me out for future FLASH stories.

Yes, you've all finally forced me to play THAT card...which I personally hate to do.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[DonC]

That's a little extreme, BA. What if they bring in Barry from Earth 34-C for one or two stories, then focus on Wally? Barry would technically be back, he just wouldn't stay.

[Buried Alien]

That's a little extreme, BA.

I can't help it. I'm in "Kobe Bryant - Trade Me!" Mode right now. :D

What if they bring in Barry from Earth 34-C for one or two stories, then focus on Wally? Barry would technically be back, he just wouldn't stay.

Not good enough. We've had short-term Barry visits before. They don't excite me like they used to.

Yes, it's petulant of me, but the patient and reasonable approach wasn't getting me anywhere, so screw it: I DEMAND the permanent return of Barry Allen.

If DC doesn't deliver, I walk away. Simple as that.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[justcrash]

Yes, you've all finally forced me to play THAT card...which I personally hate to do.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Oh no he din't! :cool:

[justcrash]

If DC doesn't deliver, I walk away. Simple as that.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

If DC Doesn't bring Wally back, I walk away. There, I've cancelled your threat out. :D

[Buried Alien]

If DC Doesn't bring Wally back, I walk away. There, I've cancelled your threat out. :D

So if DC doesn't want to be out at least two regular FLASH readers, it had better bring back both Barry and Wally.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[justcrash]

So if DC doesn't want to be out at least two regular FLASH readers, it had better bring back both Barry and Wally.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

AGREED! *spits on hand and offers it up* Shake? :D

For the record, I would LOVE to have Barry back, just not at the expense of Wally. Of course I don't know how that would work, but I like them both. At least the way I have seen Barry written since his death (by Waid, Johns, and Ross). :)

[spidervenom]

The problem with bart is that people liked him better when he was impulse and kid flash and it poeple thought it was better that way so I think they should demote him back to kid flash and as for barry bring him back he has served his time dead more than any and every major dc heroe whos been dead is alive again so why not barry.

[Ms. M]

De-aging Impulse/Kid Flash would help the Teen Titans series, assuming he could join up again. Losing Bart and Superboy while adding a bunch of second-tier characters really hurt that book.

I like the idea of bringing Wally and Barry back. I'd love to see them teaming up frequently. I appreciated how Wally (especially under Waid) seemed to be one of the only former kid heroes who had a positive and fairly angst-free relationship with his mentor.

[david r]

If next month's All-Flash is about the whole Flash family getting together, wouldn't that imply that Barry, Wally, Bart and Jay are all going to be alive and appearing there?

[Kelson]

I like the idea of bringing Wally and Barry back. I'd love to see them teaming up frequently. I appreciated how Wally (especially under Waid) seemed to be one of the only former kid heroes who had a positive and fairly angst-free relationship with his mentor.

I think DC could easily support having both Barry and Wally. Make one the star of The Flash. Make the other the Flash of Justice League of America. It worked with Wally & Jay for several years.

So you have Wally/Barry in The Flash, Barry/Wally in JLA, and Jay in JSA.

[sabongero]

I had a feeling something like this was brewing, but I didn't expect Wally back so soon.

At least we'll get the quality Wally West stories as mark Waid is back to write the stories.

Now with the Flash, the Fastest Man Alive finishing after the 13th issue, it seems it will be the jumping point of Barry's return. As long as it is the original Barry Allen, and not a Barry Allen from one of the other 51 Earths.

[Ian J.N.]

Another suspiciously unverified rumour (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000119698&tstart=0):

Dan Didio was interviewed as part of a feature story in last weekend’s Charlotte Observer about Heroes Con, explaining how the comic book industry has changed over the years, and why some many fan boys (and girls) had descended upon their city.

Aside from discussing some of the more obvious things (at least to us) such as the success of comic book movies and TV shows, and chatting on and on about DC’s weekly books and how well they’ve been received – “52” and “Countdown” – DC’s big cheese also said the following:

“Surprisingly, the mean age of a comic book reader today is 35,” Didio said. “This tells us that all those kids that grew up reading comic books in the mid-to-late ‘80s and in the early ‘90s are quite nostalgic, and spending some of their disposable income on our timeless characters and their stories.”

Didio then went on to say that those readers will get even more nostalgic this fall and winter when “DC brings back” a “wise-cracking team of superhero animals” that will tie into a new animated series on the Kids’WB network, AND revive a Silver Age hero “the company killed off” in the mid-80s who will be “extremely popular” with “fans of CSI”, and who will be given his own comic book series this November that also stars a “couple of ghost detectives”.

Admittedly, it does have a ring of truth to it, and sooo awesome if it's true.

[ShaggyB]

To all those who want barry back.....

i remind you of a few things

#1 flash starts back at issue 231. thats were wallys monthly run stopped
#2 and this is the important one. Wally is suppose to meet barry on his three worst days. Hes met him twice. I doubt barry will be back before day 3

[Jack Zodiac]

Admittedly, it does have a ring of truth to it, and sooo awesome if it's true.

Ghost Elongated Man and Ghost Sue Dibny helping resurrected Barry Allen solve crimes half "CSI" style, half "Ghost Whisperer" style? So they can make room for an idea like that, but an in-between teen sidekick like Bart Allen's just too much hassle.

Crock of !@#$.

[sabongero]

I had an impulse to write this about Bart Allen. Is he going to be given the axe at a future Final Crisis storyline or earlier? I say keep the kid, he and Uncle Barry can work in the police force.

[OzBat!]

You're a bit late; he bought the farm this week in the final issue the current Flash series.

[Harding Prime]

Ok, I don't know why people are still talking about bringing Barry back now that they just brought back Wally 4 days ok. Liver alone (get it, I said liver, ow, what, its a joke.)

[justcrash]

You're a bit late; he bought the farm this week in the final issue the current Flash series.

Is Bart dead?

[Buried Alien]

Is Bart dead?

Apparently, but "dead" and "superhero" become ambiguous when the two terms are used together.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[justcrash]

Apparently, but "dead" and "superhero" become ambiguous when the two terms are used together.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

:D How did it happen? I've not read the issue yet. :(

[Jack Zodiac]

His evil twin brother/clone stole his speed and had a bunch of Rogues freeze him, zap him, and set him on fire, then stomp the living hell out of him.

[STC]

I liked Bart's Flash. Cool to see Wally back w/ him family. Barry....it would be nice to see him back, but I could care less if he does.

[marshal99]

Don't need Barry when we already have Wally.

Guess Wally's kids will replace Bart as the kid flashes now that they seemed to have grown some after entering the speed force.

[Duy]

They're also dressed as the Tornado Twins.

Just saying.

[marshal99]

That would be a retcon , since the tornado twins are the children of Barry , not Wally.

[Buried Alien]

Don't need Barry when we already have Wally.


Of course we do. They aren't the same character.

Or are Barry's fans just supposed to get the shaft again? Is that written somewhere in DC's bylaws now?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevinroc]

Of course we do. They aren't the same character.

Or are Barry's fans just supposed to get the shaft again? Is that written somewhere in DC's bylaws now?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Considering the reaction Marvel seems to have gotten from bringing back Captain Marvel, I don't know if DC would want to deal with the possibility of bringing back Barry.

[Buried Alien]

Considering the reaction Marvel seems to have gotten from bringing back Captain Marvel, I don't know if DC would want to deal with the possibility of bringing back Barry.

If freaking Bucky and Jason Todd can come back, there's no reason Barry Allen should be off-limits.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kevinroc]

If freaking Bucky and Jason Todd can come back, there's no reason Barry Allen should be off-limits.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Jason Todd hasn't exactly been winning people over.

Bucky has and that's more a testament to Brubaker's skills as a writer than anything else.

[Buried Alien]

Jason Todd hasn't exactly been winning people over.

Yeah, but that's an effect of people hating Jason even *before* he returned (i.e. since the 1980s when he was Robin). Barry Allen doesn't have this problem.



Bucky has and that's more a testament to Brubaker's skills as a writer than anything else.

If *Mark Waid* is in charge, I have confidence that he can stage a Barry comeback that would bowl people over.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Harding Prime]

There is no reason to bring back two Flashes in a year...or a decade.

[Buried Alien]

There is no reason to bring back two Flashes in a year...or a decade.

There's also no reason to kill any of them at all.

As they say: "choose life."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Harding Prime]

There's also no reason to kill any of them at all.

As they say: "choose life."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I don't say that. If they can kill Cap, they can kill anyone. Just no need to bring them back.

[Kevinroc]

Yeah, but that's an effect of people hating Jason even *before* he returned (i.e. since the 1980s when he was Robin). Barry Allen doesn't have this problem.

Obviously people didn't like Jason since they voted to kill him.

Barry has the Captain Marvel problem. Nobody really hated Captain Marvel. But his return (even though it was essentially the method Marv Wolfman had suggested for Barry, having the character flung forward in time before he died) has really upset people.

If *Mark Waid* is in charge, I have confidence that he can stage a Barry comeback that would bowl people over.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Mark Waid is an exceptional talent and one of the few that I think might actually be able to pull this off. I just question whether or not he would actually want to. Didn't he say he took the Flash gig because he was afraid DC would kill Linda and the kids?

[justcrash]

His evil twin brother/clone stole his speed and had a bunch of Rogues freeze him, zap him, and set him on fire, then stomp the living hell out of him.

Ouch, that'll leave a mark.

[Harding Prime]

I still don't understand why we just can't be happy with TWO Flashes!?!

[Jack Zodiac]

I still don't understand-

We know. We know.

[The Shadow]

If freaking Bucky and Jason Todd can come back, there's no reason Barry Allen should be off-limits.

Jason Todd sucks. Winick sucks as a writer. The way Todd came back sucks. See the theme? LOL

Bucky on the other hand... well... he didn't die originally. TECHNICALLY he fought into the 1950's with Cap.

His death in Avengers #4 was a retcon as was pretty much everything Roy Thomas did with the character. So Bru just added to an already existing story and also didn't actually change any of it!

Bucky still died as told in Avengers #4 and Cap thought he was dead for all those years. He was just revived after the fact... which just goes to show you how great a writer Brubaker is... he kept the retconned story intact while still bringing Buck back into the mainstream Marvel U... and not undermining any stories that came before him.

[dancj]

Bucky on the other hand... well... he didn't die originally. TECHNICALLY he fought into the 1950's with Cap.

His death in Avengers #4 was a retcon as was pretty much everything Roy Thomas did with the character. So Bru just added to an already existing story and also didn't actually change any of it!

Bucky still died as told in Avengers #4 and Cap thought he was dead for all those years. He was just revived after the fact... which just goes to show you how great a writer Brubaker is... he kept the retconned story intact while still bringing Buck back into the mainstream Marvel U... and not undermining any stories that came before him.
I can't really see the distinction you're making here. Whenever characters are brought back from the dead they're either a case of either:
A - actually rising from the dead (like Superman)
B - you find out that somehow they never died in the first place (like Alfred Pennyworth)
C - continuity has been actively changed so that the whole event that caused them to die never happened in the first place (like Holly in Catwoman)

Jason Todd is a weird amalgamation of A and C where apparently it never happened, but it's still remembered and the grave still exists.

What happened to Bucky is a classic case of B, which could easily be what Barry's case is.

In reality it was wrong to bring back Bucky, but no-one minds because Brubaker is such a good writer. If someone with his talent level had brought back Jason then maybe people wouldn't have minded so much.

[CBikle]

I can't really see the distinction you're making here. Whenever characters are brought back from the dead they're either a case of either:
A - actually rising from the dead (like Superman)
B - you find out that somehow they never died in the first place (like Alfred Pennyworth)
C - continuity has been actively changed so that the whole event that caused them to die never happened in the first place (like Holly in Catwoman)

Jason Todd is a weird amalgamation of A and C where apparently it never happened, but it's still remembered and the grave still exists.

What happened to Bucky is a classic case of B, which could easily be what Barry's case is.

In reality it was wrong to bring back Bucky, but no-one minds because Brubaker is such a good writer. If someone with his talent level had brought back Jason then maybe people wouldn't have minded so much.

I agree with you about Brubaker; he pulled off the impossible.

As far as Jason Todd goes, along with the Zatanna mindwipe deal and the whole OMAC thing, the way his character was brought back, was a very, very ill fit for the Batman genre/ sub-universe. Now you have instances of Magic and technology from the far-future being important parts of Bat-History. Just seems wrong to me.

[Erebus]

Damn, I'm glad Wally's back, but I absolutely hate how they killed off Bart. I'm hoping that Bart actually survived, got sent to his original time, and will show up in the next issue of Legion as their newest member.

[XPac]

I suppose I'd be okay with Barry returning as long as he's not the Flash. I don't see why we need 2 Flashs, let alone 3.

Give Barry a different name and a tweaked set of powers, and the redundency won't be that big an issue.

[jv2k]

I suppose I'd be okay with Barry returning as long as he's not the Flash. I don't see why we need 2 Flashs,

Because Jay Garrick is distinctly different from the other flashes and he is also awesome.

[sabongero]

Are we definitely sure that Barry Allen, The Silver Age Flash is really being brought back to life ?

It's too bad, we can't have a Race of The Flashes, and loser leaves the DC Universe match.

[justcrash]

Are we definitely sure that Barry Allen, The Silver Age Flash is really being brought back to life ?

It's too bad, we can't have a Race of The Flashes, and loser leaves the DC Universe match.

Thats easy, Wally would win. Its established that Wally surpassed Barry on several levels. He never raced Jay in his prime, but it seems if he is faster then Barry he would be faster then Jay. Besides, it would be old Jay racing, not Jay in his prime.

I just don't think it would be fair to all of the Barry and Jay fans. They couldn't have Wally lose and no one wants to see "their" Flash lose a race when it counts for something that huge. Besides, all 3 are great characters, none should have to leave. :)

[marshal99]

Back in pre-crisis days , i always wished they could do a races between all the speedsters - Wally , Barry , Jay , Johnny Quick , Johnny Quick of the CSA , Reverse Flash.

They wasted an opportunity for the Johnny Quick of the CSA to match speed with reverse flash in SSOSV when the secret society went to earth 3 and fought the CSA.

[Buried Alien]

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This page wasn't reloading for some reason.

[Reynard]

I still figure we'll see the true Return of Barry Allen during the Final Crisis. Hopefully, that doesn't mean Wally has to die. it was pretty obvious from the Lightning Saga that Wally was not what the LoSH kids were after, and the clues laid down in that story all point toward Barry. If I had to guess, I would say that Barry returns to fill a pivotal role in next year's event (really, the cap to a three year long event that started with IC and will end with Final Crisis) and then have to "return" to the original Crisis in time to die. We know, after all, that Barry would visit Wally 3 times and he's only done so twice. This ultimately leaves Wally as the Flash, if I am right, but I can live with that.

What would be awesome is All Star Flash starring Barry Allen, written by any of the following (for their knowledge of and love of the Silver Age): Waid, Johns, Busiek.

[sabongero]

Barry Allen is back right ? In Justice League of America #10, the Legionnaires have what resembled like Barry Allen in that lightning rod.

[Buried Alien]

Barry Allen is back right ? In Justice League of America #10, the Legionnaires have what resembled like Barry Allen in that lightning rod.

Nobody knows for sure yet.

Moreover, even if that was indeed Barry, I don't think "disembodied lightning/Speed Force energy" is the comeback that folks are hoping for.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[marshal99]

Since the return of Wally does seemed to concide at the same time as the death of Bart , it would seemed to suggest that whatever the legion took was actually Bart's spirit. It would make sense.

[Duy]

Since the return of Wally does seemed to concide at the same time as the death of Bart , it would seemed to suggest that whatever the legion took was actually Bart's spirit. It would make sense.
Ah, yes, that makes sense, that Bart is the one the Legion brought back.

[Captain Jim]

I really thought Barry was returning a while ago, but I now think that was just a misdirect from DC. Unless, of course, the most recent events are the misdirect. :confused:

[david r]

One statement that has me wondering about Barry Allen was an interviewer asked Mark Waid if he'd be dusting off old plots for his return. And Waid replied no since the characters he'll be writing will all be different.

If it's the return of Wally West and Linda, why would Waid say the characters are different?

[Anodyne]

One statement that has me wondering about Barry Allen was an interviewer asked Mark Waid if he'd be dusting off old plots for his return. And Waid replied no since the characters he'll be writing will all be different.

If it's the return of Wally West and Linda, why would Waid say the characters are different?
Could he mean that Wally and Linda will have undergone some changes?

[OzBat!]

And the kids have undergone some accelerated growth, meaning the writers don't need to deal with all that messy potty-training!

[Denny Colt]

And the kids have undergone some accelerated growth, meaning the writers don't need to deal with all that messy potty-training!

If I had known this was possible I would have sent mine into the speed force years ago!

[david r]

Mark Waid already has a writer helping him out: John Rogers. Is Waid already phasing the Flash off his schedule?

[Captain Jim]

There's a rumor to that effect (4 issues, I think), but I don't know that it's been confirmed.

[Kelson]

Mark Waid already has a writer helping him out: John Rogers. Is Waid already phasing the Flash off his schedule?

I'm hoping Rogers is just helping on the backup story, but it's hard to tell from the solicit.

[sabongero]

It looks like Barry Allen isn't really coming back. It was Wally West all along.

[pendragon]

As much as I love Barry, he really need to stay dead.

[OzBat!]

I'm inclined to think it's a fifty/fifty chance of being either Barry or Bart in the lightning rod with the Legion. I'm personally leaning towards it being Bart, simply from the timing with the Flash title and Bart's demise... the Legion was here to save Bart at the moment of his death, and take him back to the 31st century. That corresponds with Wally being dragged back over, and the speed force feeling different, all at the same time.

If it's Barry, DC is going to have to establish just why the Legion wanted him, because there's no link there. Both of Barry's grandkids had interactions with at least one version of the Legion, and if the "3 Legions" story is actually something in the past but unrevealed, possibly with all three.

Should be interesting, whichever way it all pans out!

[Mon-el]

From Newsarama:

Geoff Johns told a fan dressed up as Booster Gold what he could expect in the upcoming series - appearances from Jonah Hex, Barry Allen and "a very good friend" in issue #6.

Booster and Barry team up doesn't sound too bad.

[HotRod_Tim]

I know DC's been retconning alotta the silver age back into continuity, but Barry Allen is one of the only character's to have a death that actually means something.

[Paul Dee]

I know DC's been retconning alotta the silver age back into continuity, but Barry Allen is one of the only character's to have a death that actually means something.

So what though? Bringing him back doesn't change the sacrifice he made, or detract from how important his death was at all.

[Kid Kyoto]

So what though? Bringing him back doesn't change the sacrifice he made, or detract from how important his death was at all.

Yes. Yes it does. Death is not a nap. It's not your girlfriend spending a semester abroad. The dead do not just go away for a while and them come back in a blaze of glory. They're gone. Forever.

Once writers and fans decide to ignore that fundimental bit of the real world, then there is no drama. Actions have no consquences. The fourth wall is destroyed and we can no longer think of characters as characters, the become nothing more than trademarks that can go and come back on a whim.

[Paul Dee]

Yes. Yes it does. Death is not a nap. It's not your girlfriend spending a semester abroad. The dead do not just go away for a while and them come back in a blaze of glory. They're gone. Forever.

Once writers and fans decide to ignore that fundimental bit of the real world, then there is no drama. Actions have no consquences. The fourth wall is destroyed and we can no longer think of characters as characters, the become nothing more than trademarks that can go and come back on a whim.

I see what you meant to a certain degree about death not being taken as seriously but, as others have said, if everyone else can come back then there's no reason for Barry not to. The only way a resurrection would detract from his sacrifice would be that if Barry knew he'd be able to come back at a certian time when he gave up his life. However, as far as he was concerned he would be giving his life up for good - fairly noble and heroic, no?

[sabongero]

Mark Waid is only going to write a couple of issues of The Flash. So maybe DC is just trying to lull the fans into a false sense of security that Barry Allen is not coming back. Then WHAM !!! They spring the trap and Barry Allen is back for several issues.

[justcrash]

Mark Waid is only going to write a couple of issues of The Flash. So maybe DC is just trying to lull the fans into a false sense of security that Barry Allen is not coming back. Then WHAM !!! They spring the trap and Barry Allen is back for several issues.

Who is following his run?

[Buried Alien]

From Newsarama:



Booster and Barry team up doesn't sound too bad.

It's fresh too. Barry and Booster have never met. Barry died during the First Crisis and Booster didn't debut until after the Crisis was over.

Booster's accustomed to dealing with Wally, so it'll be interesting to see how he reacts to Barry.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Buried Alien]

Who is following his run?

Cary Bates.

Just kidding. I don't think the question was put to anybody at the panels at SDCC, and it wasn't mentioned (or if it was, I wasn't there).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Kage Kisaragi]

I couldn't read through all 15 pages of the thread so can I simple ask, is Barry Allen back? If so in which series? Is he in the present? I thought it was Wally that came back.

[justcrash]

I couldn't read through all 15 pages of the thread so can I simple ask, is Barry Allen back? If so in which series? Is he in the present? I thought it was Wally that came back.

No. None. Not as of now. It was. I hope that helps. :)

[justcrash]

Cary Bates.

Just kidding. I don't think the question was put to anybody at the panels at SDCC, and it wasn't mentioned (or it was, I wasn't there).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

lol ok, cool. :)

[Kelson]

Mark Waid is only going to write a couple of issues of The Flash.

According to the press release from BOOM!, he's still keeping his commitments to DC for Flash and Brave and the Bold. Of course, we don't know how long that commitment was for.

[Kid Kyoto]

I couldn't read through all 15 pages of the thread so can I simple ask, is Barry Allen back? If so in which series? Is he in the present? I thought it was Wally that came back.

Barry is always with us, in our hearts.

His body however is 6' under.

[Duy]

Barry is always with us, in our hearts.

His body however is 6' under.
Actually his body kinda disintegrated.

[sabongero]

Yeah. What's going on so far ?

I stopped when they killed off Bart Allen in FTFMA #13.

[trmnlvlcty]

http://www.newsarama.com/dcnew/Nov07/solicitations.html

[Jack Zodiac]

That's neat.

Anything you'd like to add?

[CMBMOOL]

Looks like Silver Age Flash Fans finally get their wish to see Barry Allen in the Flash role once more. :D

[Buried Alien]

Looks like Silver Age Flash Fans finally get their wish to see Barry Allen in the Flash role once more. :D

It's nice, but I sure hope this isn't the sum total of the latest "return of Barry Allen."

We've been tossed lots of bones over the years; when are we going to finally get an honest to goodness STEAK?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[sabongero]

Looks like Barry's going to be on Booster Gold #4. But that's it right ? Just a time travel story.

[david r]

Dan Didio said point-blank there are no plans for Barry Allen's return. At Baltimore Comic-Con. Didio said he had never answered in such a blunt manner before.

Sorry, Buried Alien.

[Buried Alien]

Dan Didio said point-blank there are no plans for Barry Allen's return. At Baltimore Comic-Con. Didio said he had never answered in such a blunt manner before.

Sorry, Buried Alien.

And yet, DC doesn't mind continually baiting the Barry fans with hints and teases that they just might do it.

Torturing Barry Allen fans must be DC's favorite contact sport.

Sadistic bastards.

If that's the case, let me be equally blunt, DC: FINAL CRISIS, then I'm *out* if Barry remains dead.

The only reasons I've been following your comics like a blind fool this decade was on the off chance that you might actually do it: that you'd actually bring Barry Allen back.

But if you're sure that you're not, well then, OK, I'm equally sure my ride is done.

Thanks for the years. It wasn't a total waste of time, but it's going to have to end if you're not going to deliver.

There you go.

Blunt.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Dee]

Blunt, yes. But not truthful though, surely?

[Buried Alien]

Blunt, yes. But not truthful though, surely?

What I said or what DC said?

I'll gladly be a liar if they're liars first.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Dee]

What you said.

I think they are lying though. I don't think Barry Allen's return is going to be the centrepiece of Final Crisis (if it would even happen then at all) but I think after Didio messed up with his cryptic 'The Multiverse is back' message in a DC Nation column I think he'll do anything to throw people off the scent.

[Buried Alien]

What you said.

I think they are lying though.

I'm blindly following DC's lead, like I always have.

If they're being truthful about not ever bringing Barry back, then I'm truthful about getting out after FINAL CRISIS.

If they're lying about not bring Barry back, then I can be lying about getting out too.

It's not up to me anymore.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[david r]

Buried Alien, we know you are passionate about the Barry Allen Flash. But you've never warmed up to Wally West?

Sadly, Mark Waid also has flatly said he wouldn't be resurrecting Barry either, during his watch. Looks like this is one death that will stay dead.

[Buried Alien]

Buried Alien, we know you are passionate about the Barry Allen Flash. But you've never warmed up to Wally West?


Wally is all right. I have nothing against Wally, but he's not Barry Allen and he never will be.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul Dee]

I forgot about Mark Waid's comment actually.

Buried Alien (or anyone really), what instances have there been where they've teased the readers about Barry's return? I can think of the Lightning Saga , The 'is it Bart? Is it Barry?' theories after the first Countdown teaser and Didio's response of "Two words. Not yet" in a DC Nation column when answering someone's question about Barry Allen. Out of interest, what else has there been?

[Buried Alien]

I forgot about Mark Waid's comment actually.

Buried Alien (or anyone really), what instances have there been where they've teased the readers about Barry's return? I can think of the Lightning Saga , The 'is it Bart? Is it Barry?' theories after the first Countdown teaser and Didio's response of "Two words. Not yet" in a DC Nation column when answering someone's question about Barry Allen. Out of interest, what else has there been?

It's been subtle little things. Bart's first appearance as the Flash in INFINITE CRISIS wearing Barry's old clothes had people speculating about the "new" Flash's identity for months. A few years back, when Wally's twins were killed by Zoom, the cover featured the Spectre (Hal Jordan) seemingly bringing Barry back from beyond the world of the living (Barry did make a guest appearance in that episode, but not via the Spectre and not for long). Even as far back as when Wally was temporarily replaced by Walter West, it was initially hinted that the new "Dark Flash" might be Barry Allen.

Believe me, I've been baited enough times to know. I should have learned my lesson about this a long time ago, but like the idiot DC knows I am, I've let them bait me again and again and again and again.

It's getting old. You know the old adage: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me. I've been fooled maybe a dozen times by Barry Allen red herrings from DC.

But the buck stops here.

If Barry really somehow does come back someday (Hah! There I go again!), I'll have to get it as a back issue because I'm DONE chasing after a story that has, thus far, never emerged despite being teased a dozen times over the past dozen years.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Michael P]

It sounds to me like the fans do just fine baiting themselves without DC's help.

Reminds me of the pre-Rebirth days, when a rumor about Hal and the Corps coming back let me know it was time to get my oil changed.