We need better villains

[Robin3]

If you look at what DC is doing, they've been pushing to make their 3rd rate villains (and 2nd rate heroes) worthwhile, and it just isn't working. A loser is a loser is a loser.

So what do I suggest? The villains in comics need to be closer to the real-world villains of today. Just as Captain America was appropriate at the time for fighting Nazi's, we need someone to fight corrupt politicians, greedy corporate executives, and faceless but legal corporations like insurance and utility companies. And the means to fight them need to be intelligent, since the real-world villains are intelligent too. No, I don't want to read a story about superman doing a petition drive for a new stop sign at the corner, but I do want to see a hero outsmarting the villain, even if it takes time and energy.

Those of us who've been with comics realize that we can't go around beating the crap out of people that are problems to us. I'd welcome seeing a hero who fights with his mind, and I'm not talking about telepathy. Powers are okay too, but secondary.

[matt_hatyber]

no offence man, but that a horrible idea.

[Deadpooligan]

If you look at what DC is doing, they've been pushing to make their 3rd rate villains (and 2nd rate heroes) worthwhile, and it just isn't working. A loser is a loser is a loser.

So what do I suggest? The villains in comics need to be closer to the real-world villains of today. Just as Captain America was appropriate at the time for fighting Nazi's, we need someone to fight corrupt politicians, greedy corporate executives, and faceless but legal corporations like insurance and utility companies. And the means to fight them need to be intelligent, since the real-world villains are intelligent too. No, I don't want to read a story about superman doing a petition drive for a new stop sign at the corner, but I do want to see a hero outsmarting the villain, even if it takes time and energy.

Those of us who've been with comics realize that we can't go around beating the crap out of people that are problems to us. I'd welcome seeing a hero who fights with his mind, and I'm not talking about telepathy. Powers are okay too, but secondary.

Haven't they already done that with Lex Luthor to a degree? Businessman and CEO of Lexcorp in the 80's and 90's, corrupt politician and President in the 2000's?

And hell, I'm mostly a Marvelous Competition guy, but Green Lantern is my guilty pleasure. Sinestro's making a bold comeback under the greatest Green Lantern writer ever, Geoff Johns, (and for those naysayers, I'll add an "after O'Neil").

He's all the villain I need. Well, him and his Corps.

[rondre sleazde]

You are right DC's villans mostly suck except for a few like Black Adam and Sinestro.

Marvel has the top crop of villans Doom, Thanos, Magneto, Iron Man, Mr. Sinister and others.

[Winona Ryder 2099]

DC has good villains. The Joker anyone? Lex Luthor? Darkseid?

Some of the best villains in comics.

[Hatut Zeraze]

You are right DC's villans mostly suck except for a few like Black Adam and Sinestro.

Marvel has the top crop of villans Doom, Thanos, Magneto, Iron Man, Mr. Sinister and others.

I'll give you Doom, Thanos, and Magneto.

For me the jury's out on Iron Man.

Mr. Sinister, though? I've read exactly one comic book with this guy in it and he didn't do anything but stand there and order a few guys around.

I have a hard time believing he's half as cool a villain as Darkseid, The Gentleman Ghost, Johnny Sorrow, Solomon Grundy, Lex Luthor, the Joker, Zoom, Hank Henshaw (The Cyborg Superman), The Scarecrow, Deathstroke, Dr. Psycho, Talia al Ghul, Gorilla Grodd, Dr. Destiny, Chang Tzu, Veronica Cale, Prometheus, Brother Blood, Psimon, Dr. Sivana, Per Degaton, Two-Face, Brainiac, Dr. Gotham, The Ultra-Humanite, and Vandal Savage.

and those are just the obvious ones. There are a number of personal favorites I would have thrown in there that may not have had as strong a case.

To be fair, though, I could probably make as big a list of Marvel villains that I also see being more impressive than Mr. Sinister.

[Ender]

Sorry but Darkseid really doesn't have the teeth he should with me. Maybe Countdown will change things but really Darkseid just looks really cool. But he's never been as threatening as he was in the cartoons. Bring DS to that level in the comics and your onto something. It always seems like he's the guy they bring in to pump someone up.

[Winona Ryder 2099]

The great darkness saga alone puts darkseid high up on the list of bad-ass comic book villains.

[Babylon23]

If you look at what DC is doing, they've been pushing to make their 3rd rate villains (and 2nd rate heroes) worthwhile, and it just isn't working. A loser is a loser is a loser.

I'd disagree with that. I think DC has done excellent work with it's villains in recent years. Look at Flash's Rogues as a prime example; once the laughing stock of comic book villains, now an interesting and diverse group, and one of the more interesting rogues galleries in comics.

So what do I suggest? The villains in comics need to be closer to the real-world villains of today. Just as Captain America was appropriate at the time for fighting Nazi's, we need someone to fight corrupt politicians, greedy corporate executives, and faceless but legal corporations like insurance and utility companies.

This was handled to varying degrees of success during the late 80's. When done well, it was excellent. I'd recommend tracking down The Longbow Hunters and Green Arrow by Mike Grell and the Cowan/O'Neill Question.

Unfortunately, there was a lot of poorly roduced "grim 'n gritty" comics at the same time.

In general, I'd say there's room for all types of villains in comics. Much of this is dependent on the character and the book. The Outsiders have dealt with more "real world" issues, but I'd hate to see the JLA doing the same every issue.

[Karl O'Neill]

Dc has the best villains!

Sinestro
Darksied
Deathstroke
Joker
Monitors
Superboy prime

[Infra-Man]

DC has got great villains, thought I don't know that they need "real world" villains. It really depends on the characters involved. And a third-rate villain is only a third-rate villain in a third-rate story.

[Ender]

The great darkness saga alone puts darkseid high up on the list of bad-ass comic book villains.

The Great Darkness Saga never happend. If the first Crisis didn't wipe it out then Zero Hour did.

[Robin3]

It seems like all Darkseid ever does is stand around and act like a badass, then he and hero like Superman or Batman get into an intellectual argument about what they'd do to be a thorn in his side if Darkseid doesn't stop, then Darkseid gives in and goes away or lets them go (if they're on Apokalips).

If you want Darkseid to get to the level he once was at, he has to, at a minimum, do the level of damage that Black Adam did. No more posturing. As it is, he's been coasting on the "Great Darkness Saga", but that was some twenty years ago.

I did like the corporate Luthor, but the current crop of writers prefers the silver age mad scientist luther, which, will unfortunately reduce his significance.

I'd disagree with the comment about Flash's rogues being better-done. maybe I took the wrong inference from last week's Countdown, but they still seemed like losers to me.

More Magnetos and Alexander Luthors. Basically, more mastermind-class villains. Less pipers.

[Lex]

The Great Darkness Saga never happend. If the first Crisis didn't wipe it out then Zero Hour did.
Perhaps, but that doesn't make it any less of a great story and many still believe it to be one of the best Darkseid stories ever written (aside from Kirby himself).

You can alter continuity all you want, but you can't make a story cease to exist from comic history.

[Babylon23]

It seems like all Darkseid ever does is stand around and act like a badass, then he and hero like Superman or Batman get into an intellectual argument about what they'd do to be a thorn in his side if Darkseid doesn't stop, then Darkseid gives in and goes away or lets them go (if they're on Apokalips).

If you want Darkseid to get to the level he once was at, he has to, at a minimum, do the level of damage that Black Adam did. No more posturing. As it is, he's been coasting on the "Great Darkness Saga", but that was some twenty years ago.

The thing is, Darkseid isn't Black Adam. He doesn't react to situations with that level of anger and violence. Darkseid is a master strategist and long-term planner who has an entire planet of slaves to do his dirty work for him. For him to go nuts Black Adam-style would be out of character.

Infact, Darkseid is very much the mastermind-class villain you're looking for. He schemes, he plots, he hatches intricate grand plans. At least, he does in his best appearances. Unfortunately, a lot of writers don't really have a good grasp on the character, hence too many stories along the lines of the one you've listed above.

I'd disagree with the comment about Flash's rogues being better-done. maybe I took the wrong inference from last week's Countdown, but they still seemed like losers to me.

While the Rogues aren't necessarily the mastermind villains you're looking for, they are very well developed and thought out characters, and perfect for battling the Flash. I'd recommend checking out the work that Mark Waid and Geoff Johns did on the last Flash series. They worked hard to transform the Rogues into interesting villains.

I think a lot of this is dependent on the hero in question. Flash's Rogues are more like spider-Man's stable of villains, which suite these characters better than the Doom/Magneto mastermind villains.

[brundlefly]

I did like the corporate Luthor, but the current crop of writers prefers the silver age mad scientist luther, which, will unfortunately reduce his significance.
.

Actually, seems like it's just Johns & Donner in ACTION who are really into that "fugitive scientist" incarnation. Recent cameos by Lex in both NIGHTWING and SUPERMAN/BATMAN just used the corporate version anyway, regardless of his status in ACTION. It's only a matter of time before the corporate version gets officially reinstated, really, as Lex has displayed a knack for clearing his name in the past.;)

[barbarous j]

DC's villains are way better than Marvel's. Just Batman and Flash's Rogues galleries alone top all of Marvel's baddies. Throw in Luthor, Darkseid, Sinestro, Vandal Savage and Black Adam, and you've got the creme de la creme of villainy. The only villains that marvel has that are in that league are Doom, Magneto, Red Skull, Galactus and (for the last year or so anyway) Tony Stark. Seriously, DC wins on villains hands down.

As far as there not being intelligent villains, I would have to greatly disagree. I mean, of course there's Luthor and Darkseid. Sivana has been screwing with the Outsiders for the last few years, Vandal Savage has been screwing with the JSA and Secret Six lately. Hell, Jean Loring sent all the heroes in the DCU on a wild goose chase that practically shattered the hero community irrepairably. Going as far back as Hush, the Riddler orchestrated a huge conspiracy to take down Batman. Are these dumb villains?

If you want to see just how great and deep the villain roster in DC is, Alex Ross' Justice series is the perfect illustration.

[jadehorde]

Dc has the best villains!

Sinestro
Darksied
Deathstroke
Joker
Monitors
Superboy prime

SBP is a powerful villain with an interesting twist, but he doesn't compare in terms of villainy to the ones listed.

[jadehorde]

DC's villains are way better than Marvel's. Just Batman and Flash's Rogues galleries alone top all of Marvel's baddies. Throw in Luthor, Darkseid, Sinestro, Vandal Savage and Black Adam, and you've got the creme de la creme of villainy. The only villains that marvel has that are in that league are Doom, Magneto, Red Skull, Galactus and (for the last year or so anyway) Tony Stark. Seriously, DC wins on villains hands down.

As far as there not being intelligent villains, I would have to greatly disagree. I mean, of course there's Luthor and Darkseid. Sivana has been screwing with the Outsiders for the last few years, Vandal Savage has been screwing with the JSA and Secret Six lately. Hell, Jean Loring sent all the heroes in the DCU on a wild goose chase that practically shattered the hero community irrepairably. Going as far back as Hush, the Riddler orchestrated a huge conspiracy to take down Batman. Are these dumb villains?

If you want to see just how great and deep the villain roster in DC is, Alex Ross' Justice series is the perfect illustration.

You should go to Rumbles...trust me, you'll see some more even handed reviews.

You may prefer DC, I do, but there is no way DC handily wins in the villiany department. It may be richer based on your reading preferences but it in no outstrips Marvel's lineup.

From your list, what of Thanos, Apocalypse, Loki, and Spidey's Rogues?

Doom has actually conquered his world...on multiple occasions I believe.

[Brad Barton]

You should go to Rumbles...trust me, you'll see some more even handed reviews.

You may prefer DC, I do, but there is no way DC handily wins in the villiany department. It may be richer based on your reading preferences but it in no outstrips Marvel's lineup.

From your list, what of Thanos, Apocalypse, Loki, and Spidey's Rogues?

Doom has actually conquered his world...on multiple occasions I believe.

And you didn't even mention Magneto, Dormammu, Hulk's Rogues, Juggernaut, Mephisto or Galactus, just to name a few....

well, DC's got Luthor....;)

[barbarous j]

From your list, what of Thanos, Apocalypse, Loki, and Spidey's Rogues?

Doom has actually conquered his world...on multiple occasions I believe.

Thanos--Darkseid Clone

Apocalypse--Mutant Darkseid Clone

Loki--OK, I'll give you that, but didn't they kill off 616 Loki in the Ragnarok thing?

Spidey's Rogues--Aside from Norman Osborn and Kraven he doesn't really have a lot. Its just a bunch of guys who he beats the crap out of who aren't particualrly interesting in and of themselves. Kingpin is interesting, though I count him for Daredevil.

[Brad Barton]

Thanos--Darkseid Clone

Actually Thanos is a way cooler character than Darkseid ever was, not to mention I'm pretty sure they were both created by Jack Kirby, so if Thanos was a rip-off, he was ripping himself off.

Loki--OK, I'll give you that, but didn't they kill off 616 Loki in the Ragnarok thing?
Yeah, and with the new Thor series about to start, you can bet he'll be back.

Spidey's Rogues--Aside from Norman Osborn and Kraven he doesn't really have a lot.
Are you serious? What about Venom, Carnage, Doc Ock, Sandman, Scorpion, Lizard, Morlun, Hobgoblin and Mysterio? (and those are just off the top of my head.) Hell, I would venture to say that Spideys Rogue's alone are better than all of DC's villains combined. I mean, sure, Batman has a good Rogue's gallery, but after that, it's pretty much lameness all across the board.

[regnak]

Actually Thanos is a way cooler character than Darkseid ever was, not to mention I'm pretty sure they were both created by Jack Kirby, so if Thanos was a rip-off, he was ripping himself off.


Thanos was created by Jim Starlin.

[Brad Barton]

Thanos was created by Jim Starlin.

Yeah, that would've been my second guess...but he's still a cooler character, IMO...

[Love Machine]

Both companies have some excellent villians...but both companies could really do with some new villians to freshen things up, rather than keep doing the hero vs hero angle that in vogue at the mo...

[Hatut Zeraze]

And you didn't even mention Magneto, Dormammu, Hulk's Rogues, Juggernaut, Mephisto or Galactus, just to name a few....

well, DC's got Luthor....;)

I know you were half joking with the DC's only got Luthor comment, but half the strength of your actual point, that Marvel has a clearly better list of villains, is lost when you bring up Hulk's rogues.

Hulk is a great character. There have been many great stories printed with his enemies and I'm sure many more are coming in the future. Having a great rogue's gallery, though, is a tag I would never put on the Hulk. I'd compare Hulk with Aquaman, both popular characters who've been around for decades, both having a pretty weak rogue's gallery. Sure, I like Black Manta and the Leader, but, except for a select few appearances each, they rarely have the same villainous charisma of characters like Sinestro, Thanos, Darkseid, Dr. Doom, Vandal Savage, Magneto, or Lex Luthor. The great appearances by these characters have never been consistently followed by other great appearances, usually quite the opposite. As for the other Hulk rogues, besides the Leader, are there any you would stand up against the best of DCs villains? The Abomination? He's OK, I guess, but even Solomon Grundy is a more compelling villain than the Abomination. Heck, even Killer Croc is more interesting to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no DC fanatic. I just think that your case for the Marvel villains is better made when you leave out Hulk's rogues.