Difference between Liberators and Ultimates (spoilers)

[seekquaze]

I finally got a chance to read Ultimates 2 #13 today. I has previously read reviews online and heard other peoples’ opinions, but I honestly tried to read it with an open mind. While at first glance it appeared awesome, upon stepping back I was left very disappointed. One review I remember reading stated Thor was really the sole hero and was left asking what is the difference between the Liberators and the Ultimates? At the end of it I was wondering the same thing. While I understand heroes need to have flaws and if taking a realistic approach will not be perfect, but besides Thor who in the Ultimates is there left to admire?

Captain America-The living symbol of America.
In Ultimates 1 he was accused by some as being a jingonestic thug. He beat up Banner after he was no longer the Hulk. He went solo and used military resources to hunt down and beat up Hank Pym on his own before Pym was convicted or anything. These two instances are somewhat understandable given the circumstances, and I am sure many people rooted for Cap upon beating Pym since he is far worse than his mainstream cousin. However, in Ultimates 2 this rogueness and thuggery continued.
In Ultimates 2 upon hearing the possibility Thor is a traitor he goes to beat him up. Think about this for a moment. Thor was a confirmed pacifist who, has Thor himself pointed out, despised the death penalty. Unlike Hank Pym there wasn’t even any evidence at the time that Thor did it only a possibility. Remember, Cap as of yet did not know Thor’s “history.” Yet Cap, being the brilliant tactician he is, decides to go pick a fight with not only one of the most powerful beings on the planet, but in a club full of people who despise Captain America and support Thor. Later, Cap takes part in an invasion of another country to further America’s foreign policy despite assurances the Ultimates would not be used abroad. Finally, in the final battle against the Liberators, despite claiming Americans do not coldly execute people without a trial, that is exactly what he does after the Colonel was already beaten and dishanded. If he was still a threat and the battle was still going on I could understand, but the battle was already over. Throughout this, what were Cap’s actions but a jingonistic thug? I know he wasn’t as bad as a true thug, but truthfully how did he have the moral high ground? It’s been so long since they invaded what ever country it was, but even if you do not factor in that if you look at Ultimate Captain America what is he but a person who without regard for the law beats up people with little to no evidence simply because he thinks they did something wrong or have already been defeated?

Hawkeye-Murdered the Black Widow.
I know most people applauded this action, and all things considered she probable deserved it. But isn’t that was the judicial system is for. She had already been defeated and did not seem to be much of a threat. Yet Hawkeye just coldly executed her.

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch-I admit it has been awhile with them and due to lengthy times between issues I might have forgotten something, but last time I checked weren’t they incestuous twins who believed in mutant superiority and only helped the Ultimates due to fear of their former comrades?

The Hulk- A cannibalistic monster who is not misunderstood. I think anything else about him is fairly obvious.
Iron Man-He goes into an important battle in a suit of massive destructive power completely plastered. Following the death of the Black Widow who he claimed to have truly loved less than a week goes by before he is back to his womanizing ways. Based on what few lines of information he gave of past experiences it sounds like he was a creep to begin with.

The Wasp-This is the only Ultimate besides Thor that I cannot think of something truly despicable about her. At worst one could say she was trying to be with both Captain America and Hank Pym at the same time. Also that she was into the publicity a bit too much, but compared to the psychopathic flaws of some of the other characters she actually comes off as sane.

Thor-Thor is the one character who comes out of the whole thing looking admirable. About the only negative thing he did was way back in Ultimates 1 insisting the president double the foreign aid budget. Other than that you have a being who came to bring peace to the world through understanding and not brute force, a person who uses violence as a last resort, and helps people he doesn’t agree with or even like when lives are in danger. He was also the only one who refused to use the Ultimates to enforce the will of one country on the rest of the world. Even the question of whether or not he killed Loki at the end is debatable given Thor’s conflicting comments. Yet throughout Ultimates 1 and nearly all of Ultimates 2 along with all of the other appearances in the Ultimates line he was portrayed as a loser and a nut. Makes one wonder???

As I have tried to point out, how are the Ultimates really that different from the Liberators?
(I have deliberately left out Hank Pym and Black Widow since them being called Ultimates is dubious at best.)

[Thorlief]

They arent that different. They invaded the USA just like the Ultimates invaded Rahman's country. There's no difference in this.
but there's a small thing I'd like to point out: while Rahman strongly ordered to not kill any civilian, he didnt blink when his troops slaughtered the reserves, while we dont know if the Ultimates killed anyone (they could or they couldnt, we simply don't know it)

besides that, yes, Ultimate Cap is easily the biggest jerk in the group. He's a quasi-fascist nationalist, a tool, a government' puppet. He doesnt even asks Fury some clarification about taking down Thor: he just grabs a flamethrower and goes for it.
He basically executes a doomed Rahman, and a second earlier he affirms it's not what the America uses to do.
I hate Ultimate Cap, he's a POS. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree, but thats how I see him.

I happen to like the other members: Tony is cool and he's got the heart of a true hero. Noone orders him to do what he does, he just takes his armor and risks his life. I dont particularly like or hate the other members.

Thor, on the other hand, is the purest of all. He's powerful and he does REALLY what this world needs: people are starving in Etiopia? Now its raining.
Plus, he owned Cap (read my sign), and Cap ran away because he knew he couldnt have done nothing against him. Plus, he's ALWAYS right.

[cyclops2500]

I finally got a chance to read Ultimates 2 #13 today. I has previously read reviews online and heard other peoples’ opinions, but I honestly tried to read it with an open mind. While at first glance it appeared awesome, upon stepping back I was left very disappointed. One review I remember reading stated Thor was really the sole hero and was left asking what is the difference between the Liberators and the Ultimates? At the end of it I was wondering the same thing. While I understand heroes need to have flaws and if taking a realistic approach will not be perfect, but besides Thor who in the Ultimates is there left to admire?

Captain America-The living symbol of America.
In Ultimates 1 he was accused by some as being a jingonestic thug. He beat up Banner after he was no longer the Hulk. He went solo and used military resources to hunt down and beat up Hank Pym on his own before Pym was convicted or anything. These two instances are somewhat understandable given the circumstances, and I am sure many people rooted for Cap upon beating Pym since he is far worse than his mainstream cousin. However, in Ultimates 2 this rogueness and thuggery continued.
In Ultimates 2 upon hearing the possibility Thor is a traitor he goes to beat him up. Think about this for a moment. Thor was a confirmed pacifist who, has Thor himself pointed out, despised the death penalty. Unlike Hank Pym there wasn’t even any evidence at the time that Thor did it only a possibility. Remember, Cap as of yet did not know Thor’s “history.” Yet Cap, being the brilliant tactician he is, decides to go pick a fight with not only one of the most powerful beings on the planet, but in a club full of people who despise Captain America and support Thor. Later, Cap takes part in an invasion of another country to further America’s foreign policy despite assurances the Ultimates would not be used abroad. Finally, in the final battle against the Liberators, despite claiming Americans do not coldly execute people without a trial, that is exactly what he does after the Colonel was already beaten and dishanded. If he was still a threat and the battle was still going on I could understand, but the battle was already over. Throughout this, what were Cap’s actions but a jingonistic thug? I know he wasn’t as bad as a true thug, but truthfully how did he have the moral high ground? It’s been so long since they invaded what ever country it was, but even if you do not factor in that if you look at Ultimate Captain America what is he but a person who without regard for the law beats up people with little to no evidence simply because he thinks they did something wrong or have already been defeated?

I think part of people's problem with Ult. Cap is a generational gap. Violence was always the first answer for a man's man in those days. People were more straightforward, and there was little if no deconstruction of people/subjects/events. Everything was black and white depending mostly on how you were raised. Like him or hate him, Cap's an example of a typical red-blooded American man circa 1940, with some government sanctioned steroids.

As to whether there is a difference between Cap and the Liberators, I'd say perspective, and that was the intention. If you think the Ultimates were right to invade that country and take their nukes, then you root for them. If you don't maybe the counter-invasion was just deserts.

[Agent Helix]

while Rahman strongly ordered to not kill any civilian, he didnt blink when his troops slaughtered the reserves, while we dont know if the Ultimates killed anyone (they could or they couldnt, we simply don't know it)


What? This makes absolutely no sense. The Ultimates, over the course of the two series, killed a hell of a lot of people. Hell, most of the Liberators are killed definitively on panel in the last two issues.

[Thorlief]

What? This makes absolutely no sense. The Ultimates, over the course of the two series, killed a hell of a lot of people. Hell, most of the Liberators are killed definitively on panel in the last two issues.

you seem to not understand what i write, or maybe I didnt explain myself well. I meant during their invasion of the Middle Eastern country Rahman comes from

[Brian M.]

I don't have that issue where the Ultimates invaded the Middle Eastern country...what was the reason they invaded?

[Agent Helix]

You don't explain yourself very well.

But even so, given how many enemy combatants they'd previously killed throughout the series, isn't it a bit simpleminded to suggest that their invasion of a sovereign country might have been bloodless?

[J. Roberts]

Hawkeye-Murdered the Black Widow.
I know most people applauded this action, and all things considered she probable deserved it. But isn’t that was the judicial system is for. She had already been defeated and did not seem to be much of a threat. Yet Hawkeye just coldly executed her.


She slit her own wrists in order to bleed out Tony's nanites. She has equivalent training to Hawkeye's, and surgical enhancements to augment her capabilities even further. Much like Hawkeye, it would be virtually impossible to find a cell that could contain her. Putting an arrow through her head was really the best choice.

[seekquaze]

She slit her own wrists in order to bleed out Tony's nanites. She has equivalent training to Hawkeye's, and surgical enhancements to augment her capabilities even further. Much like Hawkeye, it would be virtually impossible to find a cell that could contain her. Putting an arrow through her head was really the best choice.

So they can make cells that can hold beings as powerful as the Hulk, Captain America, and Magneto, but that can't hold her for trial and then execution?

[Grunty]

besides that, yes, Ultimate Cap is easily the biggest jerk in the group. He's a quasi-fascist nationalist, a tool, a government' puppet. He doesnt even asks Fury some clarification about taking down Thor: he just grabs a flamethrower and goes for it.
He basically executes a doomed Rahman, and a second earlier he affirms it's not what the America uses to do.
I hate Ultimate Cap, he's a POS. I'm pretty sure a lot of people will disagree, but thats how I see him.

Don't forget that famous quote of him about what the letter on his head means.

He basicly offended those people he fought together with in WWII and who basicly made all his covert ops mission during WWII possible.
Without those france resistance members D-day could have been far more of a hell for the Allies.
And what does this perfect example of a supermensch do? He accuse them for always giving up!
Sure with everything he i still stuck in 1945 except with his clichès about france people.

At least 616 Cap honored those men and woman for having resisted even when theire armed forces where defeated.

By the way does germany still exist in Ultimate? From all the crimes the Nazis did in Ultimate universe past, i wonder if they didn't threw Littleboy on Berlin instead of Hiroshima?

[myslead]

the main difference is that ...

they are dead.

[Siddon]

Black Widow blew his toddler sons brains out infront of him. And you know they didn't clean his sons brains off of him so he had to sit and deal with that for weeks.

If anything Hawkeye was way to nice to him

[cowboyfunk]

Cap is a man learning to live in a different time. Given the series' resolution, I'd say he's figuring things out.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Black Widow blew his toddler sons brains out infront of him. And you know they didn't clean his sons brains off of him so he had to sit and deal with that for weeks.

If anything Hawkeye was way to nice to him

Good

Good


Give in to the hate

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/TheHuzzah/emperor.jpg

[Sparda]

As much as I love cap for his angry funnyness, I agree he is a dick. Rahman is the only liberator that is worth a damn to my eye's while the rest are just people who jumped the bandwagon.

Right now cap is just learning to be more liberal in the modern age and is beginning to question his own government not seeing it as they use to be back in his day.

True true hero's, would have to be without a doubt Thor despite his hippyness (I usually hate hippies but Thor earns my respect.) and of course the crazy good intentioned IM who'd willingly put his life on the line risking getting killed instead of enjoying his remaining days of his tumor in his head. Hawkeye is a good mention of a good person but of course he can be a government lackey at times.

Nick Fury is a bad ass but a dick as well but that comes with the job and I found it odd, that he did'nt even apologize to cap for the misunderstanding on Hawkeye's family murders.

One thing that's interesting to not is that all the liberator's except for Raman begged for thier lives pathetically. Hell even black widow did'nt beg at all.

[Samurai]

Seems to me Cap, the Ultimates, and the Liberators behaved as they did because Millar has a political message he wants to get across, and his favorite medium for conveying that message is comics.

[Omega Alpha]

Seems to me Cap, the Ultimates, and the Liberators behaved as they did because Millar has a political message he wants to get across, and his favorite medium for conveying that message is comics.

In other words, his creations behaved the way he wanted them to behave because he wanted them to behave that way. Which is the same thing Stan Lee did with Spider-Man, X-men, Fantastic Four...

[Kayless]

In Ultimates 1 he was accused by some as being a jingonestic thug. He beat up Banner after he was no longer the Hulk.
Bruce Banner intentionally turned himself into the Hulk and went on a rampage that cost 815 people (including 62 children) their lives. Millar has said that Cap kicked him in the face in order to knock him out, so he wouldn't turn into the Hulk again. I'm not very sympathetic towards Banner about this.

He went solo and used military resources to hunt down and beat up Hank Pym on his own before Pym was convicted or anything.
Do superheroes in comic books usually wait until a guy has been convicted in court before they engage in vigilantism? It's not like Pym denied beating his wife, he just made excuses like he was on antidepressants and that he felt really ashamed. Again, I'm not feeling much sympathy here.

Yes, Cap is guilty of misappropriating government resources.

These two instances are somewhat understandable given the circumstances, and I am sure many people rooted for Cap upon beating Pym since he is far worse than his mainstream cousin. However, in Ultimates 2 this rogueness and thuggery continued.
Somewhat understandable? More like completely understandable and totally justified, if you ask me. More wife beaters and cannibalistic, mass-murdering, child killers should get the crap kicked out of them. :cool:

In Ultimates 2 upon hearing the possibility Thor is a traitor he goes to beat him up. Think about this for a moment. Thor was a confirmed pacifist who, has Thor himself pointed out, despised the death penalty. Unlike Hank Pym there wasn’t even any evidence at the time that Thor did it only a possibility. Remember, Cap as of yet did not know Thor’s “history.” but in a club full of people who despise Captain America and support Thor.
Now this I agree with. Cap jumped the gun, acted out of anger and didn't think things through.

Later, Cap takes part in an invasion of another country to further America’s foreign policy despite assurances the Ultimates would not be used abroad.
He's a soldier. If he didn't follow orders he wouldn't be a very good soldier. Hate the game, not the player. He's left the employ of the government now anyway.

Finally, in the final battle against the Liberators, despite claiming Americans do not coldly execute people without a trial, that is exactly what he does after the Colonel was already beaten and dishanded. If he was still a threat and the battle was still going on I could understand, but the battle was already over.
Actually, that's not what Cap said.

Colonel al-Rahman: "And why should I give up? So you can humiliate and execute me before your fellow officers?"
Cap: "Don't be ridiculous. That's not how we do things in this country."

Cap didn't humiliate al-Rahman or kill him in front of a group of officers. He gave him a chance to surrender after beating him in a one-on-one brawl. In response he was dogpiled by 7 or 8 of al-Rahman's men and almost had his head cut off. I can't really fault Cap for not feeling particularly inclined to show mercy after that.

Throughout this, what were Cap’s actions but a jingonistic thug? I know he wasn’t as bad as a true thug, but truthfully how did he have the moral high ground? It’s been so long since they invaded what ever country it was, but even if you do not factor in that if you look at Ultimate Captain America what is he but a person who without regard for the law beats up people with little to no evidence simply because he thinks they did something wrong or have already been defeated?
The only person he beat up was Pym, and there was tons of evidence pointing to him as the one who put Jan in the hospital (and he didn't even deny it when Cap confronted him). The Thor confrontation never came to blows. Colonel al-Rahman was a soldier in an invading army that had just tried to kill Cap. I don't think his actions are as questionable as you're making them out to be.

Besides, the Ultimates isn't about morally upstanding people who always behave in a compassionate manner. It's about flawed people with amazing powers and the various battles they're involved with (be they political, physical, or internal).

Come to think of it, that's why I like the new Battlestar Galactica too. :D

Hawkeye-Murdered the Black Widow.
I know most people applauded this action, and all things considered she probable deserved it. But isn’t that was the judicial system is for. She had already been defeated and did not seem to be much of a threat. Yet Hawkeye just coldly executed her.
She was his friend. They worked together for years. Then she betrayed him (as well as Tony and the rest of the Ultimates) and was involved with the murder of his family and the attempted overthrow of his country.

If it's strictly a matter of legality, Hawkeye is (or was, at the time) a member of a team run by U.S. government endowed with broad enforcement powers. Natasha was a spy for an invading army. Wouldn't surprise me if he was legally in the clear, given the stuff the Ultimates typically do without legal reprisal even when the country isn't being invaded.

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch-I admit it has been awhile with them and due to lengthy times between issues I might have forgotten something, but last time I checked weren’t they incestuous twins who believed in mutant superiority and only helped the Ultimates due to fear of their former comrades?
They've come a long way and despite being aloof, are truly protective of their teammates.

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/4702/ultimates2127lv4.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ultimates2127lv4.jpg)

http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/7168/ultimates2128nr0.th.jpg (http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ultimates2128nr0.jpg)

Iron Man-He goes into an important battle in a suit of massive destructive power completely plastered. Following the death of the Black Widow who he claimed to have truly loved less than a week goes by before he is back to his womanizing ways. Based on what few lines of information he gave of past experiences it sounds like he was a creep to begin with.
Tony is an alcoholic with an inoperable brain tumor the size of a golf ball in the back of his head and is taking chemotherapy drugs. He gives to charity and joined the Ultimates to make the world a better place.

Tony Stark: "I guess I just hit a point in my life when I wondered what things could be like if all the billionaires and government spooks tried to save the world instead of bleeding it dry."

Let's cut the man some slack.

As I have tried to point out, how are the Ultimates really that different from the Liberators?
(I have deliberately left out Hank Pym and Black Widow since them being called Ultimates is dubious at best.)
In broad strokes, the two teams are very similar. But the Ultimates didn't murder women and children (and old butlers named Jarvis). The Ultimates didn't plan public executions. The Ultimates didn't deliberately aim for civilians casualties once it became apparent things weren't going their way ("Aim for the civilians! As many as you can hit! I want this place looking like a desert! Let's give them death like they've never seen before!").

[desanth]

Yes, Cap is guilty of misappropriating government resources.


Somewhat understandable? More like completely understandable and totally justified, if you ask me. More wife beaters and cannibalistic, mass-murdering, child killers should get the crap kicked out of them. :cool:


Tony is an alcoholic with an inoperable brain tumor the size of a golf ball in the back of his head and is taking chemotherapy drugs. He gives to charity and joined the Ultimates to make the world a better place.

Tony Stark: "I guess I just hit a point in my life when I wondered what things could be like if all the billionaires and government spooks tried to save the world instead of bleeding it dry."

Let's cut the man some slack.


Radar to track down Hank Pym: $10,000,000
Helicopter Transportation: $50,000
Beating the crap out of Hank Pym: Priceless
There's some things money can't buy, for everything else there's mastercard.

About Tony though, think Thor using his teleportation trick on the tumor would work if he could see it, or would that be too technical?
Also, Tony foresaw this all going down, coupled with 616 IM current behavior, makes me think that maybe he knew Thor was innocent when they went to take him down.. Just a thought.

[Pike]

Also, the Ulitmates, for all their failings, were not the tools of unelected dictatorships who persecute their own people. Slight difference.

[dreyga2000]

Well the Ultimates didn't start their invastion by placing ginat robots in the streets of New York randomly firing at defenless and paniced crowds of innocent people ( Before Pietro interwined)...And for some reason continued the practice in Washigton DC (Before Hulk showed up).... I unsderstand why they needed to take out military personal but what with the giant robot randomly firing in the streets.... Just their how know how innocent people they killed for no forseeable reason...

[Thorlief]

Well the Ultimates didn't start their invastion by placing ginat robots in the streets of New York randomly firing at defenless and paniced crowds of innocent people ( Before Pietro interwined)...And for some reason continued the practice in Washigton DC (Before Hulk showed up).... I unsderstand why they needed to take out military personal but what with the giant robot randomly firing in the streets.... Just their how know how innocent people they killed for no forseeable reason...


for what I understood it was Crimson Dynamo's fault. He went crazy and ordered his clones to kill everyone. Rahman would have never allowed that.

[magmer]

for what I understood it was Crimson Dynamo's fault. He went crazy and ordered his clones to kill everyone. Rahman would have never allowed that.

So the Dynamo was the Hulk of the Liberators then?

[Frank]

It's funny that with the same writer both the ending of Ultimates and Civil War if felt like the villains won.

[Thorlief]

It's funny that with the same writer both the ending of Ultimates and Civil War if felt like the villains won.


because I think millar wouldve had em winning, heh

[Strange_Fish]

It's funny that with the same writer both the ending of Ultimates and Civil War if felt like the villains won.

:rolleyes:

Gimme a break.

Also, lol at the guy who said Cap beat up Hank before he was convicted. Are you fricken kiddin' me? Because it's not like good guys in comic books do that all the time. It's also not like there was any ambiguity about him beating up his wife. And, Cap is a stand up guy from another generation ... how retarded are you to expect a soldier who kills people ... who sits around in trenches punching Nazis and getting gassed ... not to make a joke in bad taste?