Late comics make Bryan Hibbs sad

[Charles RB]

Bryan Hibbs, comic retailer, on late ships: (http://www.newsarama.com/Tilting2_0/Tilting40.html)


Here’s the thing: late comics, especially late on the epic scale of these two, really hurt sales. Look at All-Star Batman & Robin – we ordered (and sold) more than 180 copies of the first issue. The number of copies we’re receiving of #5 this week is down to about a third of that – and I’m still concerned I’m way too high!

...

Here’s the thing: while Big Super-Huge Sales on books are always nice, generally speaking consistency is more important for the comic book store. Or, to put it another way: I made more money in 2006 from the sold-very-poorly Firestorm, with 12 issues released, than I did from the It’s-in-the-Top-Twenty All-Star Batman because only one single issue was released in all of 2006.

Read that one more time: I made more money in 2006 from Firestorm than a Batman comic by Jim Lee and Frank Miller.

Ouch. If I was DC management and I heard drokking Firestorm did better for someone than All-Star Batman and sales for the latter dropped by a third from issue #1, both due to late-ships, I'd be looking for someone to fire.

Also, fun fact - Titan Magazines in the UK is doing monthy Batman & Superman comics reprinting several issues at a time, and they've started off with the All-Stars as their lead reprints. There's going to be a wailing and gnashing of teeth when they realise they've got nothing coming in to reprint and yet have to continue on a monthly three-reprints-per-issue schedule (because newsagents won't tolerate late ships)...

[thehod]

Ouch. If I was DC management and I heard drokking Firestorm did better for someone than All-Star Batman and sales for the latter dropped by a third from issue #1, both due to late-ships, I'd be looking for someone to fire.

Also, fun fact - Titan Magazines in the UK is doing monthy Batman & Superman comics reprinting several issues at a time, and they've started off with the All-Stars as their lead reprints. There's going to be a wailing and gnashing of teeth when they realise they've got nothing coming in to reprint and yet have to continue on a monthly three-reprints-per-issue schedule (because newsagents won't tolerate late ships)...

I was quite amazed at Bristol with the DC Panel, where the vice president no less, seemed to be accepting of the fact that a flagship title was going to have <gasp> two or three issues in the next year, if they were lucky.

Whilst I appreciate the concept of art being ready when its ready, lets not kid ourselves here, we're talking superhero comics, not fucking Van Gogh.

Unless there is a valid reason (eg Kurk Busiek's health issues and Astro City) then if you can't meet deadlines, then you've got no business in the business. And any publisher that appeases their creators because the name of the people working on it is more important than the people putting down their cash to read it, doesn't deserve to see that cash in the first place.

Its disrespectful to the retailer, to the customer and to those in the industry who do manage to fulfill their responsibilities.

[dingo]

I am a retailer, and my first reaction to this is: better comics are better for the long term health of the industry, regardless of the examples quality.

Then I thought about it some more.

Is any comic good enough to justify all the frustration that such a lengthy delay has/would cause?

I would say probably not. Comic stores hold on to many new customers by the skin of their teeth. Annoying them is a really bad idea.

[Iangould]

When Lee's Batman run is finished, how many copies do yu think it'll sell in trade?

Now how many copies do people think Firestorm will sell assuming it gets a trade?

How many foreign publishers do people think are lining up to publish Firestorm?

All-star B&R shouldn't have launched with the Jim Lee arc unless it was completed. Hell, after it was clear how late it was going to be DC should have said "We'll publish the rest of this this when its complete" and stuck in the Tim Sale Batman Confidential story or the Dini/Williams story.

Oh and let's not forget that Jim Lee has a full-time salaried position as Editor in Chief (or publisher?) of Wildstorm and has also been assigned various other work by DC.

If they wanted ASBAR on time maybe they shouldn't have had Jim Lee working on character designs for the DCU MORP or the on-line Heroes comic.

[dingo]

When Lee's Batman run is finished, how many copies do yu think it'll sell in trade?


Maybe it is time to just releast TPB sized comics.

[thehod]

If they wanted ASBAR on time maybe they shouldn't have had Jim Lee working on character designs for the DCU MORP or the on-line Heroes comic.

Or maybe go down the route that TV does, and wait until the damn thing is finished before putting the issues out.

[Michael P]

Part of me wonders if the acceptance of delays on the production end isn't a symptom of "fan-as-pro" syndrome. I mean, most of the people working at DC these days are probably people who grew up reading Frank Miller and Jim Lee comics. Does that make them less likely to call up their former (probably current, too) idols and say, "Hey, man, can you maybe get that script to me when you said you would?"

[Ryan Day]

The whole "Good Late Comics vs. On-time Crappy Comics" dichotomy is stupid.

I'll take "Good Comics on a Reasonable Schedule and Realistically Solicited" instead.

Shit happens, sure, but I can't imagine there's any excuse for stuff like Ultimates, All-Star Batman, or Wildcats/Authority beyond editorial apparently having no idea what's going on with their creators. DC didn't envision any problems with Jim Lee working on Batman, Wildcats, and a giant video game? After five years, Marvel still doesn't know how long it takes Bryan Hitch to draw an issue of Ultimates?

[Charles RB]

I was quite amazed at Bristol with the DC Panel, where the vice president no less, seemed to be accepting of the fact that a flagship title was going to have <gasp> two or three issues in the next year, if they were lucky.

And then we get Hypotheticals where David Bishop cheerily says he would bring in a fill-in artist for almost anything because if the comics he edited were late, he'd get fired. Now there's an incentive to keep to deadlines! :evilsmile


When Lee's Batman run is finished, how many copies do yu think it'll sell in trade?

If I'm buying it in serial form, fuck the trade. You offer it in serial form, it better be available and work in serial form - otherwise, what's the point of offering it in that form?

And that's just me talking as a consumer. Depending on the size of the retailer, the sales lost because of a late-ship on the monthly might cause some significant damage if it happens on too many titles; the trade may make him money in the future, but that's no good if he's having cash-flow problems in the present. And Titan Magazines is probably getting homicidally angry with every day the All-Stars aren't available to them because it means they've got to hurriedly find a replacement (admittedly at this point they should've known it would be delayed).

And then there's Civil War, where it may read great in trade form but if you want to read a comic that ties into it, you're screwed because half of all Marvel's comics are being held back because of one comic's delays. Having that delay is a total balls-up.


After five years, Marvel still doesn't know how long it takes Bryan Hitch to draw an issue of Ultimates?

Yeah, you have to wonder what's going on there...

[Iangould]

If I'm buying it in serial form, fuck the trade. You offer it in serial form, it better be available and work in serial form - otherwise, what's the point of offering it in that form?

To make money.

Time Warner exists to make money. When it becomes unprofitable to tolerate super-late titles they'll stop doing so.


And that's just me talking as a consumer. Depending on the size of the retailer, the sales lost because of a late-ship on the monthly might cause some significant damage if it happens on too many titles;

Speaking as a retailer (and as a wholesaler to several other Australian comic shops) there's absolutely no evidence that the hypothetical situation you propose is occurring, has ever occurred (the situation in the 90's with Deathmate and other super-late titles was quite different and the fundamental rules of the business - such as returnability for late-shipping titles have changed in any case).

Late titles suck, they're an annoyance to the customers and I'm heartily sick of explaining to peopel week after week where certain titles are. But, all due respect to Bri, there's little to no evidence that they hurt the industry as a whole.

Who even remembers now that Dark Knight Returns; Watchmen and Camelot 3000 all shipped late?

Anyone think they should have sacked Miller off DKR and replaced him with, say, Mike Flesicher and Alan Kupperburg?

[Iangould]

Shit happens, sure, but I can't imagine there's any excuse for stuff like Ultimates, All-Star Batman, or Wildcats/Authority beyond editorial apparently having no idea what's going on with their creators. DC didn't envision any problems with Jim Lee working on Batman, Wildcats, and a giant video game? After five years, Marvel still doesn't know how long it takes Bryan Hitch to draw an issue of Ultimates?

When I asked a similar question a while back in a different forum it was pointed out to me that Marvel and DC's Previews solicitation material has to be completed something like 3-4 months prior to the Previews publication date - which is about two months prior to the scheduled release date.

There's a hell of a lot that can happen in those six months.

Remember when Mike Turner was one of the principal targets of criticism for late shipping? And it turned out he'd nearly died from bone cancer? Remember when Wetworks was massively late? And it was because Whilce Portacio's sister was terminally ill?:

I don't know why Ultimates II #13 is late. Neither do you.

[dingo]

Late titles suck, they're an annoyance to the customers and I'm heartily sick of explaining to peopel week after week where certain titles are. But, all due respect to Bri, there's little to no evidence that they hurt the industry as a whole.


You honestly can't see how annoyed customers may hurt the industry as a whole?

Hell, forget the industry as a whole, think about yourself. If people are annoyed with the monthly format, they will either not buy comics or swap to trades. I bet you have more competition for trade dollars (with bookstores) than you do on monthlies. Monthlies are good for comic stores.

[Iangould]

You honestly can't see how annoyed customers may hurt the industry as a whole?

Hell, forget the industry as a whole, think about yourself. If people are annoyed with the monthly format, they will either not buy comics or swap to trades. I bet you have more competition for trade dollars (with bookstores) than you do on monthlies. Monthlies are good for comic stores.

Let me put it this way: how many customers have you lost due to late comics over the period you've been open?

[Ryan Day]

There's a hell of a lot that can happen in those six months.

Remember when Mike Turner was one of the principal targets of criticism for late shipping? And it turned out he'd nearly died from bone cancer? Remember when Wetworks was massively late? And it was because Whilce Portacio's sister was terminally ill?:

I don't know why Ultimates II #13 is late. Neither do you.

That's true enough, and as I said, shit happens.

On the other hand, Jim Lee and Grant Morrison have stated in interviews that they just had too much work and got overloaded. As I recall, Marvel's explanations for Civil War delays ran to the effect of "We didn't have a lot of lead time and McNiven had never drawn a book like this before." They rushed the Ellis/Granov Iron Man relaunch out to coincide with Dissassembled, apparently not understanding that there was no way Granov could do a monthly.

The reality in many cases is that most of the top (or, at least, most popular) artists can't do an issue a month, but many books get scheduled that way anyway. And when working with Hollywood writers, comic work will usually come in second when deadlines start crunching.

There's just too much of this sort of thing going on for it all to be illness & family problems. If it were, comic book creators would have to be the sickest and unluckiest people on the planet.

[dingo]

Let me put it this way: how many customers have you lost due to late comics over the period you've been open?

I have been open about 6 months, so not sure I can really give actual examples. In that time, there have been 0 issues of ASB&R.

Nevertheless. Customers who are annoyed is a bad thing.
In this case there is little that you or I can do about it, but just because it isn't our fault doesn't mean that it isn't having an effect in the long term.

For (what I see as) a similar example, look at PC games. They were doing great, the top of their industry. But they could be annoying. Patches meant that release versions were often cruddy, and hardware problems contributed to sales moving over to consoles.

It wasn't an overnight thing.

Monthlies are PC games. Trades are consoles. Competition for trades is higher.

The cost is not in sales on a particular late title, the cost is the good reputation that the industry is losing

[Charles RB]

Who even remembers now that Dark Knight Returns; Watchmen and Camelot 3000 all shipped late?

How late? Are we talking a few weeks or Ultimates-style eight months?

[Loren]

The reality in many cases is that most of the top (or, at least, most popular) artists can't do an issue a month, but many books get scheduled that way anyway. And when working with Hollywood writers, comic work will usually come in second when deadlines start crunching.

Which is fair enough, except many of the notoriously late titles were never monthlies to begin with. All-Star Batman was solicited as a bi-monthly book. The Ultimates 2 was promoted as being bi-monthly too, after volume 1 ran so late. The recent relaunches of WildCATS and The Authority were also plugged as bimonthlies. Bendis' Secret War mini was a quarterly, and it still ran late.

And of course, the excuse of slow output does nothing to excuse the uber-lateness of books like Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine (now a year since its last issue), or Daredevil: The Target (coming up on 5 years since #1).

[Charles RB]

The reality in many cases is that most of the top (or, at least, most popular) artists can't do an issue a month

I wonder why they can't but other artists can?

I also wonder how artist Carlos Ezquerra managed to draw, ink and colour the 26-part Judge Dredd: Necropolis story, where six pages would be needed done every week, without any delays while still having enough spare time to not get divorced. Did he sleep at all?

[Ryan Day]

Which is fair enough, except many of the notoriously late titles were never monthlies to begin with. All-Star Batman was solicited as a bi-monthly book. The Ultimates 2 was promoted as being bi-monthly too, after volume 1 ran so late. The recent relaunches of WildCATS and The Authority were also plugged as bimonthlies. Bendis' Secret War mini was a quarterly, and it still ran late.

True enough, and I was probably being imprecise. Though strictly speaking, Jim Lee had a monthly workload betewen Batman and Wildcats. But it looks like it's about the same problem: Somewhere along the line, someone's not fully considering how long it takes to do the work.

Like Ian said, we don't really know what's going on. But time and time again, we see big products announced and solicited well in advance, and then shipped seemingly whenever they're finished.

[Spackling Compound]

I only do trades now. I actually have started a serial and due to the long lag..forgotten the entire story line. Or lost interest. Trades work for me, for a lot of reasons.

On the artist output issue: Someone a while back talked about how amazing it was that the early comics were put out monthly with only a couple of guys doing all the comics. Do we have TOO many comics and too little talent? How many X-titles are necessary? Do things like Civil War and Infinite52 or whatever just keep up the demand with very little on the production side?

For a product (comics) that has gone mostly to specialty outlets (which are limited...the closest to me is about an hour away), they sure have become more complicated than simplified. When they were on the spinner racks, you could count on a monthly mag being there...there just wasn't so many of them.

[clayholio]

Late comics are bad, but different artists work at different speeds. That's a fundamental truth. Anyone who's ever been around artists in any capacity should understand pretty quickly that there's a vast difference in how much work each individual is capable of producing. An artist shouldn't be looked down upon because they can't draw 10 pages a day, a monthly book just might not be reasonable. And I'd definitely argue that today's comics take a lot more work than some of the older ones did. I'm pretty forgiving of late books because of that.

The other reason is that it matters a whole lot more now who did a comic than it used to. If all you want is a monthly book of your favorite character, that's not hard to do. Fill-in issues and rotating art teams can help make sure that you get your monthly fix. But if what you want is a monthly book of you favorite character by your favorite artist, there's no way to help keep that on schedule when there's a problem.

I'm not in favor of comics being late, but it's the trades that matter, and not the singles. The singles are there just to subsidize the production of the trade. If a reader chooses to follow a story in a serial format, then late books are part of the risk.

[Agent Helix]

Sure, late books are part of the risk, but now they're just fucking with us at this point.

[macul]

I don't mind late books. As ian stated, stuff happens that can affect shipping schedules. With that said a book that is chronically late does cause problems. I've dropped books due to losing interest in the story when I have to wait eight months between issues. If I've dropped it then someone else has also. Maybe it's not enough to hurt the industry, but it still equates to unhappy customers.

[macul]

double post

[Iangould]

How late? Are we talking a few weeks or Ultimates-style eight months?

Ultimates-late in the case of Camelot 3000, several months between issues in the other cases.

[Gingold]

I mean, most of the people working at DC these days are probably people who grew up reading Frank Miller and Jim Lee comics. Does that make them less likely to call up their former (probably current, too) idols and say, "Hey, man, can you maybe get that script to me when you said you would?"

Jim Lee's an Editorial Director too. So he probably outranks most of his editors too, which would make it kind of difficult to get on his case for lateness.

[Charles RB]

Jim Lee's an Editorial Director too. So he probably outranks most of his editors too, which would make it kind of difficult to get on his case for lateness.

One day an editor will try anyway, and his name shall go down in office legend.

[Serik]

Call me old-school, but any monthly publication worth its salt should consistently ship on time. If you can't do that, then GTFO out. A few late issues, fine. But Ultimate-style lateness is a fucking joke that reeks of unprofessionalism.

I only read trades, but I'd cancel subscriptions if I had to wait months between issues.

[Iangould]

I wonder why they can't but other artists can?

I also wonder how artist Carlos Ezquerra managed to draw, ink and colour the 26-part Judge Dredd: Necropolis story, where six pages would be needed done every week, without any delays while still having enough spare time to not get divorced. Did he sleep at all?

How long before Necropolis started was he commissioned and how many pages had he done before the first episode was printed?

[Iangould]

People like to talk about The Good Old Days when thew books came out on time every month.

Well guess what- a major reason for that was because the pay was so lousy for most artists that you did two or three pages a day or you didn't eat.

Anyone want to go back to that?

[Charles RB]

How long before Necropolis started was he commissioned and how many pages had he done before the first episode was printed?

This is a very good question and I'm not entirely sure. I do know Judge Dredd: Origins had a mid-run delay of nine weeks because of problems with Carlos moving house. Another delay happened on another artist's Dredd last year due to bereavement and needed a fill-in artist (Origins didn't get one as Carlos' art is the selling point). In the case of those two artists at least, they appear to have been working quite close to the deadline and I'd presume the same happened with Necropolis; IIRC it varies depending on how quickly the artist can work.



Well guess what- a major reason for that was because the pay was so lousy for most artists that you did two or three pages a day or you didn't eat.

This is true, but I doubt the only way to get on-time books is to starve the artists.

[macul]

People like to talk about The Good Old Days when thew books came out on time every month.

Well guess what- a major reason for that was because the pay was so lousy for most artists that you did two or three pages a day or you didn't eat.

Anyone want to go back to that?

If I'm paid money to deliver a project on time then I'd better be able to do it. To do otherwise, on a very consistent basis, such as the case with Ultimates is ludicrous. Especially in a consumer driven industry. No one is forcing any artist or writer to do what they do for a living. Don't expect me to feel sorry for any of them if they can't sell me what they pitch.

What's the point of a monthly or bi-monthly book if an issue is released every four months? You can't follow a story that way. Might as well just sell it as a trade and be done with it.

[Kid Omega]

People like to talk about The Good Old Days when thew books came out on time every month.

Well guess what- a major reason for that was because the pay was so lousy for most artists that you did two or three pages a day or you didn't eat.

Anyone want to go back to that?

Incrdible.

You've taken this from Hibbs saying that late books make less money, and stretched it out until people who want books to ship on time want artists to starve.

That's the thinnest I've seen an argument get stretched in an effort to be self-righteous.

Congratulations!

[Iangould]

Incrdible.

You've taken this from Hibbs saying that late books make less money, and stretched it out until people who want books to ship on time want artists to starve.

That's the thinnest I've seen an argument get stretched in an effort to be self-righteous.

Congratulations!

Hey, just re-read your own post and look in the mirror and you'll have a new champ.

Then you can go back and read all the posts after Brian's commented were posted where people are suggesting that people who can't keep to a monthly schedule shouldn't be working in the comics industry.

[king mob]

Ultimates-late in the case of Camelot 3000, several months between issues in the other cases.

Add to that the lateness of the last issue of Crisis On Infinite Earths plus Batman Year One in 'Batman; monthly title and the one that really started it all, Frank Miller's Ronin. There must have been a year between Ronin #5 and #6 on top of a 3 or 4 month gap between # 4 & #5.

So as said this has been going on for years, as have people complaining and the major companies will still do this because these type of big projects will sell when they're collected. Of course the problem is that the single issues will drop in sales-Ronin #6 is now scarcer than #1 for example.

The simple solution is to ensure a series is completed before releasing it, the problem is that isn't practical from a financial position as Marvel & DC want our money and we're only to glad to give it to them. So if it pisses you off then stop buying these titles or wait til the obvious trade.

[king mob]

I wonder why they can't but other artists can?

I also wonder how artist Carlos Ezquerra managed to draw, ink and colour the 26-part Judge Dredd: Necropolis story, where six pages would be needed done every week, without any delays while still having enough spare time to not get divorced. Did he sleep at all?


Ezquerra is famously fast at deadlines because he's from the time when if you didn't turn out 4 pages a week, you never got the pitiful amount of money IPC paid in the 70's.

[Charles RB]

people are suggesting that people who can't keep to a monthly schedule shouldn't be working in the comics industry.

Well they certainly shouldn't be working on monthly comics.


Ezquerra is famously fast at deadlines because he's from the time when if you didn't turn out 4 pages a week, you never got the pitiful amount of money IPC paid in the 70's.

Somehow he still seems to be keeping this pace up, despite (I hope) 2000AD having paid more since it was taken from IPC, while also getting older. I don't know how he manages this without burning out, injuring his hand or becoming a complete hermit.

Unless he is a complete hermit, which would explain everything, coz he's doing something odd to continue at this pace.

[king mob]

Somehow he still seems to be keeping this pace up, despite (I hope) 2000AD having paid more since it was taken from IPC, while also getting older. I don't know how he manages this without burning out, injuring his hand or becoming a complete hermit.

Unless he is a complete hermit, which would explain everything, coz he's doing something odd to continue at this pace.

He's just very fast and very good at his job, he's no hermit though, he can drink his own weight in sangria.