The Sarah Connor Chronicles

[Gilda Dent]

I'd say Cameron passed the Turing Test in her first appearance.

The counter to that would be that it could be a "Chinese Room" instance. "Chinese room" is one proposed answer to the Turing test. There is a man in a room with a huge book of instructions. From time to time, a question is given to him through a slot in the door. The questions are in Chinese. The man does not speak or read a word of Chinese, but by looking up the characters on the page he's been given in the book, he can compose the correct response, without understanding either the question or the response he's been given. Does the man understand Chinese?

Of course not. The idea is that, no matter how closely a computer can simulate something generally believed to be a facet of human intelligence, even if it does so perfectly, it's still only producing a very sophisticated simulation.

This in opposition to the Turing test, which proposes that there is no qualitative difference between a perfect imitation and the original. If you can't tell them apart, from your perspective, they're the same thing.

It's a matter of POV; do we define true intelligence/sentience externally or internally? Is it a matter of how something behaves or what is actually happening inside us? If it's internal, then how can we know that any other person is truly sentient? I can know that I'm sentient, self-aware, able to be creative and have free will, all those traditional tests of sentience, but I can't know of anyone else.

I'd say that Cameron is sentient in the way a small child is. She has to follow her programming (in children, instinct), but is capable of displaying all the necessary behaviors that in other humans we use to define sentience.

In other words, despite these objections, if I apply the same criteria to Cameron as I do to humans, I have to accept her as sentient. This isn't to say that I'd value her existence to the same degree as I would a human; I think sentience is an artificial and not necessarily a very good way of valuing other beings.


Feetal's Gizz on toast. I can't believe I never made the connection...


FBI agent Ellison? Same last name as the dude who sued for co-credit on writing, Harlan Ellison? I'm a moron.



Cameron I got immediately.

I got those. How about Cromartie? The traffic control computer network Cameron shuts down is ARTIE. Add a shiny metal endoskeleton and you get Chrome Artie.

[Trey]

Feetal's Gizz on toast. I can't believe I never made the connection...


FBI agent Ellison? Same last name as the dude who sued for co-credit on writing, Harlan Ellison? I'm a moron.



Cameron I got immediately.

Quiet you, or Harlan will sue Fox, you, and the Internets.

[Trey]

I really,really,really,really dislike the actress playing Cameron (I know she has a strong fan base, never saw Serenity or Firefly)

Hopefully the producers will use the explosion to let her go and do movies, just so they make me happy.

I really like the show, but its just falling short a bit from reaching my "favorite" category. I think a bigger budget for next year will help. Better stunts and fight scenes, etc.

What is your favorite part of the show? I really like the High School scenes best.

[Jared]

So that makes it acceptable for him to knowingly lead a dozen agents on a surefire suicide mission? I don't think so.

What was he is you think he should have done then? He *can't* call in the Army. This isn't Grand Theft Auto. Could he try covering up everything he had already reported?? Perhaps, but then there's still a killer on the loose with no effort being made to stop him. And, IIRC, his partner had come in and made a connection about Cromartie impersonating an agent. The F.B.I isn't just going to let that slide.

[Dark Galaxy]

I really,really,really,really dislike the actress playing Cameron (I know she has a strong fan base, never saw Serenity or Firefly)

Hopefully the producers will use the explosion to let her go and do movies, just so they make me happy.

I really like the show, but its just falling short a bit from reaching my "favorite" category. I think a bigger budget for next year will help. Better stunts and fight scenes, etc.

What is your favorite part of the show? I really like the High School scenes best.

Interesting.

I actually love Firefly/Serenity but always thought she was the weak spot in the series. (The actress, not the character). But, I like her much more in this role.

The high school scenes are good. I have also really liked the last few episodes with Derek Reece in them. LOVED the future stuff too.

[howyadoin]

How about Cromartie? The traffic control computer network Cameron shuts down is ARTIE. Add a shiny metal endoskeleton and you get Chrome Artie.That's pretty cool.


I really,really,really,really dislike the actress playing Cameron (I know she has a strong fan base, never saw Serenity or Firefly)

Hopefully the producers will use the explosion to let her go and do movies, just so they make me happy.I kinda thought the show was built around her, to be honest.

At least, that's the impression I get from the marketing.

[kalorama]

What was he is you think he should have done then? He *can't* call in the Army. This isn't Grand Theft Auto. Could he try covering up everything he had already reported?? Perhaps, but then there's still a killer on the loose with no effort being made to stop him. And, IIRC, his partner had come in and made a connection about Cromartie impersonating an agent. The F.B.I isn't just going to let that slide.

Only after he showed her the file containing the information he had gathered. Prior to that she had no idea that "Agent Kester" even existed, let alone what he looked like.

And I don't buy the "his only choices were to (A) do nothing or (B) lead a bunch of people to certain death" argument. Pretty much his entire post-time jump investigation into his suspicions concerning Sarah being alive was done outside the lines. He went against orders in pursuing avenues his superiors said were dead ends, he hid evidence, he lied to (what he thought) was an LAPD official about having the evidence. But now, all of a sudden, he had no choice but to do everything by the book?

[kalorama]

I really,really,really,really dislike the actress playing Cameron

I think she's easily the best thing about the show. I think she does an outstanding job of painting an interesting character picture, despite being restricted to a very limited palette of demonstrable emotional responses.

[kalorama]

Except he didn't. You said it yourself, if it were you, you wouldn't have been sure.

I never said that. And it doesn't matter, because we're not talking about me. Ellison did know. He told two different people on two different episodes that he knew, all while having irrefutable evidence iof his knowledge in his possession.


Remember, the character doesn't know he's on TV.

Which remains just as irrelevant a point as the last time you said it.

[Trey]

kalorama, I see your point about the SWAT team. We can look at it this way. Ellison thought he was dealing with something not human, maybe a robot. He never faught one before,tho, right? He did get about 10 agents, which he thought would be enough. Now he knows for sure, that conventional weapons won't work.

[SensorBoy]

So that makes it acceptable for him to knowingly lead a dozen agents on a surefire suicide mission? I don't think so.

Terminators, while not subject to the effects of hydraulic shock or organ/blood loss which kill most gunshot victims, are still not made of superUnobtanium. Sufficient bullets will still drop them (the CPU is housed in a shielded cranium, but a few mm of metal isn't going to shrug off repeated rifle hits).

OTOH, Cromarty was waiting for the entry team, and he's a lot faster. It's unlikely they managed to hit him more than a few times.

Ellison, being in a DELTA GREEN* situation, has a choice. Use the SWAT unit under false pretenses, or leave the Killer Robot alone to continue it's operations.
Due to the crazy nature of the Killer Robot, it's not like he can warn the other agents. "Oh, FYI, he might be a Killer Robot".

Turns out, he brought a knife to a gunfight. However, he did the best he could (the SWAT unit being the biggest gun in his arsenal, and not taking action wasn't a viable option).

*-Cthulhu reference, meaning he has official assets that he can use in furtherance of his goals (which would appear to be crazy goals, to the uninitiated), but is constrained in how he uses them.
Having an FBI Regional SWAT unit storm a "terrorist/criminal" safehouse (that just happens to be occupied by what later turns out to be a Killer Robot from the Future) is one thing. Calling out SWAT expressly to fight Killer Robots is another.

[Jared]

I never said that. And it doesn't matter, because we're not talking about me. Ellison did know. He told two different people on two different episodes that he knew, all while having irrefutable evidence iof his knowledge in his possession.


He never had irrefutable evidence that killer androids from the future were running around. What he had was a prosthetic hand. An analyisis would probably reveal it to be highly advanced, but there's still along way to go from there to the agency believing in time travel. He didn't truly believe until he spoke with the doctor and was rescued by Sarah...and incidentally lost the hand anyway.

There simply no way he could possibly have gotten the feds to proceed as if they knew Cromartie/Kester to be a hyper-alloyed killing machine. As if the feds would even know how to proceed with that.

[kalorama]

He never had irrefutable evidence that killer androids from the future were running around. What he had was a prosthetic hand. An analyisis would probably reveal it to be highly advanced, but there's still along way to go from there to the agency believing in time travel. He didn't truly believe until he spoke with the doctor and was rescued by Sarah...and incidentally lost the hand anyway.

There simply no way he could possibly have gotten the feds to proceed as if they knew Cromartie/Kester to be a hyper-alloyed killing machine. As if the feds would even know how to proceed with that.

Which is not, and never has been my point. I never said he should have convinced the entire FBI to proceed as if Terminators existed. My only issue is with how he proceeded, knowing what he knew. And he did know. He said so. Multiple times. Yet, knowing what he knew, he still pointlessly lead a dozen men and women to their deaths.

[kalorama]

Terminators, while not subject to the effects of hydraulic shock or organ/blood loss which kill most gunshot victims, are still not made of superUnobtanium. Sufficient bullets will still drop them (the CPU is housed in a shielded cranium, but a few mm of metal isn't going to shrug off repeated rifle hits).

And yet, through 3 movies and 8 or 9 episodes of a TV show, we have yet to see even one Terminator being taken down by a hail of gunfire.


Ellison, being in a DELTA GREEN* situation, has a choice. Use the SWAT unit under false pretenses, or leave the Killer Robot alone to continue it's operations.
Due to the crazy nature of the Killer Robot, it's not like he can warn the other agents. "Oh, FYI, he might be a Killer Robot".

Which, again, presumes he had no choice but to do things by the book. Which is nonsense because nothing he'd done up to that point was by the book. He was all the way off the reservation in his obsessive pursuit of Sarah, stealing evidence from a scene, hiding evidence in his house, lying about possessing evidence. But, after all that, when put in a position where he basically had to decide whether people lived or died, he had no choice by the play it by the rules? Don't think so.

[Jared]

Which is not, and never has been my point. I never said he should have convinced the entire FBI to proceed as if Terminators existed. My only issue is with how he proceeded, knowing what he knew. And he did know. He said so. Multiple times. Yet, knowing what he knew, he still pointlessly lead a dozen men and women to their deaths.

When what *should* he have done? What would have been so much better? You agree that he can't convince anybody that they're dealing with a killer robot. That severly limits his options.

[kalorama]

kalorama, I see your point about the SWAT team. We can look at it this way. Ellison thought he was dealing with something not human, maybe a robot. He never faught one before,tho, right? He did get about 10 agents, which he thought would be enough. Now he knows for sure, that conventional weapons won't work.

He never fought one. But he had full access to the records indicating what happened when other people fought them (LAPD Police station, video arcade, Pescadero Mental Hospital, Cyberdyne labs). And in every one of those instances, conventional gunfire was ineffective.

[Jared]

He never fought one. But he had full access to the records indicating what happened when other people fought them (LAPD Police station, video arcade, Pescadero Mental Hospital, Cyberdyne labs). And in every one of those instances, conventional gunfire was ineffective.

You're assuming there's all his video evidence available of the Terminator getting shot, but we've never seen it. All the police showed Sarah was still frames from the station shoot out, and from the mall. If they've got video that shows an seemingly bullet-proof killing machine, it's kept well under wraps, because Ellison and the other Feds seemingly don't know of it.

[DoctorDoom]

He never fought one. But he had full access to the records indicating what happened when other people fought them (LAPD Police station, video arcade, Pescadero Mental Hospital, Cyberdyne labs). And in every one of those instances, conventional gunfire was ineffective.
Ah well...Live and learn.

[StoneGold]

I will say this: if there is a second season, Ellison will feel like he led all those men to their deaths. But feeling the guilt and actually deserving the blame are two different things.

[DoctorDoom]

I will say this: if there is a second season, Ellison will feel like he led all those men to their deaths. But feeling the guilt and actually deserving the blame are two different things.
True. I don't think he deserved the blame. And I'm looking forward to seeing what Cameron looks like without her skin.

[SensorBoy]

And yet, through 3 movies and 8 or 9 episodes of a TV show, we have yet to see even one Terminator being taken down by a hail of gunfire.
.

Because that would have sort of brought the Plot to a screeching halt.

The more "disposable" (Red Shirt) Terminators there are, the greater the likelihood that you will see one go down to small arms fire.


In all 3 movies (and now the Series), the Terminators never really stood up to massed gunfire (even in the Police Station Assault). The most they got was handgun rounds or SMG fire from a distance (mostly to the torso, which is heavily built, and not to the cranium).

[Jared]

Well Arnold did have good chunks of head flesh blown off by the SWAT guys in T2, though it was SMGs as I recall. Still, I'm sure their built with really good shock protection for their CPUs, considering how they slam each other around whenever they fight.

I think it'd be horribly lame to see a Terminator taken down by a some guys shooting it in the head, though I am curious as to whether it's possible to shoot an eye out with say a high powered rifle.

[DC724]

Well I had a theory that if you used an elephant gun loaded with a very large caliber cartridge (Like .557 Tyrannosaurs) it could do it. Coltan may be tough but I don't think a terminators skull is thick enough to withstand something with 13,000 joules of energy behind it.

[Mia]

I never really liked the films. But I really love this show very much. It has a lot of depth and is a bit more profound than simply a bunch of fights and killings. And the stuff about the future is interesting. I get the impression that the Terminators are supposed to be stand in for the Nazi's or the Soviets. Your basic goons for a totalitarian regime-but somehow scarrier. The acting is wondeful, and Summer Glau is a joy to watch. Her combiniation of naivety and ruthless is truly something to behold. As is Lena Headey, she has this quiet authority without turning into the prototypical b@ll buster. And Thomas Dekker as John is far more than your average self-absorbed teenage boy. He's selfish at times, but also compassionate, and very mature and smart. I think they did a good job with this show. Especially with the minimilsm, it's almost like watching a play on stage. I'm going to get the show when it comes out on DVD.

[DoctorDoom]

I second that. I'm getting this on dvd when it comes out.

[Chiasm]

Sounds like there will be a second season. I was worried given the ratings. There has been no official announcement but there is talk of production of the second season starting in June and Thomas Dekker (John) stated that he is sure there will be a second season.

http://www.eonline.com/gossip/kristin/detail/index.jsp?uuid=69f7cad7-f180-4b6d-ba1e-c0999930a41b

[SensorBoy]

FYI Coltan isn't an alloy, it's an ore. Very desirable (causes quite a bit of bloodletting in West Africa).

We process it to extract Niobium and Tantalum. We don't make structural members (i.e. Killer Robot Chassis) out of it.

Tantalum is used in capacitors. Niobium has many uses, but structural applications is not one of them.

They should have used Inconel or Vitreloy as the "superalloy", instead.

[marshal99]

True. I don't think he deserved the blame. And I'm looking forward to seeing what Cameron looks like without her skin.

I would rather see Cameron without her clothes. ;)

[Angelus II]

I will say this: if there is a second season, Ellison will feel like he led all those men to their deaths. But feeling the guilt and actually deserving the blame are two different things.

I'm not sure that Ellison led those FBI guys, wasn't it that girl that led the team. The one that Ellison was holding at the end.

[maczero]

I'm not sure that Ellison led those FBI guys, wasn't it that girl that led the team. The one that Ellison was holding at the end.I was under the impression that they were peers. Was there any mention that she was his superior?

[Neal R]

I was under the impression that they were peers. Was there any mention that she was his superior?

I don't recall that. I'd say they were peers. The impression I got was they knew each other from past cases. I think it's immaterial as to whether or not either of them led the FBI team on the assault. The point was Ellison survived and this will be a great character arc to bounce off of in future episodes (God willing). The fact that they were willing to let one of the agents whom we've come to know a little more than others die worked emotionally and logically from what happened. Very solid writing in 9 episodes.

[Jared]

FYI Coltan isn't an alloy, it's an ore. Very desirable (causes quite a bit of bloodletting in West Africa).

We process it to extract Niobium and Tantalum. We don't make structural members (i.e. Killer Robot Chassis) out of it.

Tantalum is used in capacitors. Niobium has many uses, but structural applications is not one of them.

They should have used Inconel or Vitreloy as the "superalloy", instead.

Did she call it an alloy? I thought Cameron only said that it was a "key ingredient" or something like that. When they talked about how many Terminators could be built with the amount stolen on the truck, I remember thinking that it seemed to be no way the could just be melting and molding that amount of stuff into hundreds of complete skeletons.

[Angelus II]

I was under the impression that they were peers. Was there any mention that she was his superior?

To me, it sounded like she was the giving the orders. But I can't really tell with all the chaos going on.

[StoneGold]

Yay! It's coming back!


http://community.tvguide.com/blog-entry/TVGuide-Editors-Blog/Ausiello-Report/Ausiello-Scoop-Fox/800037914

[Deathstroke]

Can't argue with that. I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

[Nate Grey]

...depending on how deep they go into the Terminator mythos, I think I know why Ellison was spared by Cromartie... (http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/TS-300)

[ponset]

First Season on DVD and Blu-ray is available for pre-order at various sites.

http://www.tvshowsondvd.com/news/Terminator-Sarah-Connor-Chronicles-Season-1-box-art/9625

[Lucky Luciano]

I'm starting to burn all of the episodes on DVD after missing the first season. I will finally get to watch all the episodes this weekend after the celebrations slow down. Is Season 2 a done deal?

Edit: Never mind. A post 4 above mine confirmed it. Time to play catch up.