Supergirl #17

[RabidWolfe]

This is it. I've stuck with the series for 17 issues. I wanted to like it, I really did. But this is the issue I leave. I'm dropping it from my pull list as of today.

The plots make no sense - Kelly seems to be making stuff up as he goes along, and he's dropping plot lines like Howard Mackie on speed.

My wife already hates the comic due to the art, but since the last half dozen issues have featured incomprehensible plots with unexplained jumps in time -

forget it.

Perhaps when a new writer takes the series on. But this travesty deserves no more money from me and my wife.

[Cayman]

I thought this was one of the better issues.

[Young Avenger]

I'm going to continue to stick with it because I like Graza art. I agree with Cayman that this issue is one of the better ones.

[Samuraixsithlord]

i like the whole psychological beat down that Kara got from Cassie and Robin. For some odd reason i've wanted to see Kara get taken down a peg or two for awhile. I really think the "phantoms" are creations of the two shadowed individuals to try to get Kara to kill Clark. That whole dream last issue, nothing but an illusion.

I really hope that in #19 they don't start saying that Kara is more powerful then Clark again.

Hopefully Capt Boomerang Jr and Kara will hook up. Speaking from experience i know what it feels like to be ignored by someone you're crazy about.

[titanfan]

How did a story that started out so promising turn out so bizzarre?

I'm hesitant to use the word "awful" because this issue really wasn't. I did like the Cassie/Tim at their worst and I more or less understood the plot--but after reading it--"this issue was weird" was the only thing that crossed my mind.

[ToxicTeen]

I thought things are getting interesting now. I dunno about you guys but I'm enjoying the recent SuperGirl series.(Though I'm wondering if issues #10-19 will be in one TPB or in two?)

[Xanrn]

This Issue reminds me of the very wierd Fever Dream I once had while sick as a parrot.

[fierceandfunky]

issue was weird. i wanna see how it pans out.

[Jack Zodiac]

Great issue! Even if it's all taking place sideways in time or in some other universe or something, who cares? Finally, after so long, Kelly's forcing Supergirl to confront her problems- with herself, with others- all at once. This'll be the turning point for the character, I think, where her flaws become traits and she can finally become a real superhero who still has real problems without being a broken mess.

The art was... odd. Maybe I have gotten used to Churchill. It wasn't bad, just different, but the knight/fallout survivor look they gave Superman was pretty decent.

Anyway, glad I can finally get back to enjoying this character.

[jgphenom]

This issue was really good. It looks to me like this arc (as bizarre as it may be) is going to tie everything we've been reading about Supergirl lately. The first 2 pages of issue #16 recapped everything she's been going through since OYL, so that leads me to believe there will be lots of explanations and revelations in this arc.

And as for the setting, with the red sun overhead this is either a dream (forced or not) or a different earth in the multiverse, At least I think... :)

[Jack Zodiac]

She's either in another universe or in some kind of dream/illusory thrall that someone (like that shadowy chick we know nothing about) has trapped her in to face her own demons. Considering Powerboy's Fatherbox is what got her where she is, I bet she's in some possible future or something.

[Alex A Sanchez]

Great issue! Even if it's all taking place sideways in time or in some other universe or something, who cares? Finally, after so long, Kelly's forcing Supergirl to confront her problems- with herself, with others- all at once. This'll be the turning point for the character, I think, where her flaws become traits and she can finally become a real superhero who still has real problems without being a broken mess.

The art was... odd. Maybe I have gotten used to Churchill. It wasn't bad, just different, but the knight/fallout survivor look they gave Superman was pretty decent.

Anyway, glad I can finally get back to enjoying this character.

I agree! Another excellent issue. I'm surprised that people could dislike this issue- it was a bit weird, and not everything was explicitly spelled out, but I don't mind having to think to enjoy a book.

I would have thought that all of the people who disliked Kara up to this point would have enjoyed the verbal/emotional ass-kicking that Lil' Wondey delivered! Sure she may have been possessed, but I think everyone agrees that Kara needed to be put in check. And how awesome was the way she tricked her!! Not knowing any history of her lasso, I was fooled as well.

I'm wondering if the two dark shadowed people have something to do with Kara's adventure in Kandor, or if they are part of the group that hired Batgirl? Either way, this series definitely is looking up, and next issue should kick some major ass.

And in case anyone is going to try and complain about yet another SG vs. SG fight- remember that this is a tradition that began with Silver Age SG comics. Accept that it is bound to happen and enjoy it.

[Cayman]

I'm wondering if the two dark shadowed people have something to do with Kara's adventure in Kandor, or if they are part of the group that hired Batgirl? Either way, this series definitely is looking up, and next issue should kick some major ass.


I assumed it was Saturn Queen and whatsisname, the Superman of the Crime Syndicate - Ultraman?

[Alex A Sanchez]

I assumed it was Saturn Queen and whatsisname, the Superman of the Crime Syndicate - Ultraman?

Does anyone know if Ultraman is Ultra Boy from the Legion of Superheroes? If this is true, then it makes sense: In Ultra Boy's original appearance, he replaced Clark Kent while Clark was away on a mission because he coincidentally looked exactly like the Boy of Steel. (or am I confusing his with Mon-El?) If this is Ultra Boy, I'm wondering what made him become evil.

I read the Legion Archive Edition three weeks ago and forgot already.:( :( Can someone help me out?


Edit: I remember a Legion story where Lex travels into the future and is aided by a Legion of Supervillains- one of the members was the Saturn Queen, and she had mental powers as well. Maybe Ultraman is Ultra Boy's evil counterpart from the Legion of Supervillains?

[Jack Zodiac]

Well, we know who one of the two people orchestrating these events is, and it isn't Ultraman (also, no, Ultraman is not Ultra Boy), so I doubt the other is Saturn Queen- she was more visible this issue and she looks like Lady Shiva, but I really doubt it's her. Might be someone new, but also someone connected to Kara in some way- a new, personal villain, to give her an enemy without having to take more from the Superman mythos and add to her own.

I'm just gonna' assume, from now on, that anyone reading through this thread doesn't care about spoilers, so I'll stop tapdancing around stuff.

[Ragnorok64]

I'mma so confused :confused:. This series looked like it was about to start making sense and then took a left into funkyville.

[jgphenom]

Well, we know who one of the two people orchestrating these events is, and it isn't Ultraman (also, no, Ultraman is not Ultra Boy), so I doubt the other is Saturn Queen- she was more visible this issue and she looks like Lady Shiva, but I really doubt it's her. Might be someone new, but also someone connected to Kara in some way- a new, personal villain, to give her an enemy without having to take more from the Superman mythos and add to her own.
Well, the shadowy guy askes the shadowy girl, "Are you finished?"
And the shadowy girl replies, "No 'Zor-El'... I'm not finished at all." with "Zor-El" in quotes. If the guy was really Zor-El, his name wouldn't be in quotes. Which means that he's probably pretending to be Zor-El but the lady knows it's not true. I'm thinking her memories have been manufactured by these two, with the guy playing the starring role of her father.

[Jack Zodiac]

Ah, good point. And Saturn Queen's definitely on the list of people with a beef against Kara who could pull something like that off.

[Mia]

She's either in another universe or in some kind of dream/illusory thrall that someone (like that shadowy chick we know nothing about) has trapped her in to face her own demons. Considering Powerboy's Fatherbox is what got her where she is, I bet she's in some possible future or something.


Is she really? I hope it's a dream. I was really disturbed by Tim's rant, about Batman being his Dad and she can't have him etc. I thought to myself What?:confused:

[Jack Zodiac]

I'm thinking it's all psychological on Kara's part. She's hearing stuff she doesn't wanna' hear about herself from her friends "possessed" by the Phantom Zone phantoms. Even under the influence of a spirit that brings out the icky truth in people, there's no reason Tim would feel theatened by Kara's relationship with Bruce. The whole "daddy rant" seems like something that would come from her fractured mind in whatever situation she's in.

[RabidWolfe]

I admit this issue was actually better than the last few, but basically I've decided I've been burned enough by this series.

However, I do want to like it. If I hear that it is improving, I will add it back to my pull list. Probably once Kelly is off, I'll do the same.

It all does read like a fever dream - perhaps that is what Kelly is aiming for. But as I've said before, it takes real skill to pull something like this off, and Kelly seems sorely lacking in this area. Rather than creative, it just seems sloppy.


(although, I must admit, the last panel has me intrigued. But then, nearly every one of the last half dozen issues has had a cool last page - only to have a bizarre red herring-ish non-resolution the next issue).

[Froggy]

Ah, good point. And Saturn Queen's definitely on the list of people with a beef against Kara who could pull something like that off.

I bet it IS her, cause if it isnt.....this "Other" supergirl has got me going WTF

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

She's either in another universe or in some kind of dream/illusory thrall that someone (like that shadowy chick we know nothing about) has trapped her in to face her own demons. Considering Powerboy's Fatherbox is what got her where she is, I bet she's in some possible future or something.

Remember the shadowy chick summoned someone a few issues ago? wasn't that guy some illusionist?

And they kept saying she's near a red sun.....earth isn't near a red sun

I think this issue and the next issue with "silver age supergirl" are all an illusion

But i agreed with kara like two pages in when she said "i'm tired of this"....it was the same thing over and over again...it did NOTHING to move the plot line ahead

[Cayman]

I'm curious if Tony Bedard is the new writer or is just a placeholder?

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

You know after reading the solic's for August I dont think i'm going to get this series anymore....she's gone from independent super girl to whiney dependent cry baby ever since that father box exploded

[ForEverAncien]

-Voices of the dishearted-

Well, for those who trying to lift the book up...I applaud you, in the effort. But this slide has been ongoing for a while now. Even I, as a staunch collector of this series, cannot muster the means to support it, anymore.

The art has been up and down, with different degrees, on how she looks, and as stated, her forever changing attitude...has not been consistent.

Time to wrap this up...and this is a first, I ever called on a book.

[Jack Zodiac]

Hilarious! Well, I'll be reading this until it starts sucking again.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

maybe they'll cancel this book once she joins Teen Titans

[KET]

I'm curious if Tony Bedard is the new writer or is just a placeholder?

Placeholder through #22.

Not that it really matters anymore, it seems.

[JoeMD]

Ale garaza is on art, so I'm staying with the book, I love his stuff. I admit I felt a bit confused when reading the issue but when I sat down and thought about it it all made sence. Hopefully the script picks up soon, but I'm enjoying it so far.

[Mia]

You know after reading the solic's for August I dont think i'm going to get this series anymore....she's gone from independent super girl to whiney dependent cry baby ever since that father box exploded


I'm not away to abandon the book yet. I suspect that Beddard is a fill in author. I notice he's doing BoP that month as well. Nothing in that solicit was bad enough to compel to think that the characters changed.

But I agree if Kara get's watered down from the independent, cocky fiercely young woman that she was up until issue #15. I am dropping the book. Catwoman and Supergirl were the only superhoroines who are worth reading about at DC.

[Young Avenger]

maybe they'll cancel this book once she joins Teen Titans

The book is still has good sales. It would be stupid for DC to cancel good selling book. If Robin and Blue Beetle can still have their own books while being members of the Titans then Kara should keep hers.

[KET]

Ale garaza is on art, so I'm staying with the book,

He's leaving, too. Ale's last issue is #19; he's moving over to TEEN TITANS when Sean McKeever takes over that title as writer.

[KET]

The book is still has good sales. It would be stupid for DC to cancel a good selling book.

They've done it before, and with far higher profile characters than SG.

Besides, this series is still in free fall, really; SG is joining TEEN TITANS just as her book slides past it down the Diamond charts.

Here's also some historical trivia: the last time Supergirl was named a Titan, that series got unceramoniously cancelled about a year later.

[Francis]

But I agree if Kara get's watered down from the independent, cocky fiercely young woman that she was up until issue #15. I am dropping the book. Catwoman and Supergirl were the only superhoroines who are worth reading about at DC.

Are we talking about the same Supergirl? The one who sold Kandor? The prick-tease of Captain Boomerang? (I don't often use that description, but she was deliberately toying with him). Or do you like her specifically because she's an anti-hero?

(That would fit with your comments on Huntress tbh).

[Jack Zodiac]

She's hardly an anti-hero, she's just not a hero. Or she wasn't for most of Kelly's run. He was focusing on her character as a teenage girl rather than a teenage girl superhero, and that facet of the character (the selfish, confused, outcast teenager) is what attracted some people to her. Myself, I'd rather read about a superhero, so I'm enjoying where the book's going.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

I like to see Kara as a strong confident young woman....I dont want to see story after story of Kara crying (which is why I wasn't impressed with the August Cover)

Kara wasn't teasing PowerBoy...he had boundry issues and she thought he had potential...he thought they were soulmates from the time he saw her on Apocalypse.

For me seeing Kara wallow in self pity or crying over a bad decision is a male writer saying "women are emotional lets exploit that" and that's wrong and completely out of character

Yes she's conflicted but she's been so the entire series and she's taken it on more logically than emotionally

[Jack Zodiac]

Her emotional conflict was just her problem before, though. Now, her friends and the only family she has left is being hurt by those problems, so it's not unreasonable that she'd break down, even if this is all a headgame by whoever's behind it.

[Mia]

Are we talking about the same Supergirl? The one who sold Kandor? The prick-tease of Captain Boomerang? (I don't often use that description, but she was deliberately toying with him). Or do you like her specifically because she's an anti-hero?).

Sorry I don't know what you're talking about in that statement.

But part of Kara's appeal to me is that she's arrogant and at times selfish. And at other times she will step up to the plate and help others. Sometimes she behaves like your typical teenage girl, at other times she behaves like a jaded woman in her 40's. She's flawed and she isn't perfect. But for me that's part of her charm.

I think I've posted over and over again here, I don't like perfect characters. And if they decide to retcon her into some boring highschool girl who only cares about boys, shopping and hanging out at the mall. I'm gone. Kelley/Rucka wrote her like teenage girl who didn't have a childhood.




(That would fit with your comments on Huntress tbh).


My reasons for liking Kara and Huntress (or at least before Judd Winnick and Gail Simone decided to retcon her into a stupid wanton) are absolutely different.

Kara reminds me of a younger version of Emma Frost. At times she's bold, arrogant and refuses to be controlled.

Huntress, on the other hand (again pre Outsiders/BOP) is more moral and cares about others. She just has a strong distaste and intolerance of a/holes and people who prey on others. She longs to be accepted but won't do it at the cost of being dis-respected.

[Alex A Sanchez]

Well, we know who one of the two people orchestrating these events is, and it isn't Ultraman (also, no, Ultraman is not Ultra Boy), so I doubt the other is Saturn Queen- she was more visible this issue and she looks like Lady Shiva, but I really doubt it's her. Might be someone new, but also someone connected to Kara in some way- a new, personal villain, to give her an enemy without having to take more from the Superman mythos and add to her own.

I'm just gonna' assume, from now on, that anyone reading through this thread doesn't care about spoilers, so I'll stop tapdancing around stuff.

Actually, I was talking about the villains in the Kandor issues (the OYL stuff). I'm brand new (as of this year) to the DCU, so I'm trying to learn all of this stuff as rapidly as possible. That was Saturn Queen and Ultraman from the early Legion stories, right?

[Jack Zodiac]

No, well, Saturn Queen was (an evil, adult version of Saturn Girl), but Ultraman is the evil Superman from Earth-3, a member of the Crime Syndicate of America. Somehow, when the universe got all wonky after the Crisis, he was tossed into our universe and Saturn Queen found him.

[Francis]

My problem with Supergirl is that I can in no way see her as a hero or even a good person. I can't off hand think of anything she has done that was not in her own self interest, she was bought off the defence of Kandor, and has generally behaved like a spoilt (or more accurately spoiled by Jor-El) brat.

I don't like perfect characters either. Two of my favourites are Spider Jerusalem and Oracle. Both can be utter bastards. But despite their obvious flaws, I get from them one thing that I don't get from Kara - the sense that they are trying. I'd forgive Kara much (although still think she needs to atone for Kandor) were I simply to read that off her - and if Issue 17 is what I think it is, it's exposing Kara to her own actions and motivations - and with luck this will add the extra layer to her that I want to see, without taking away from her her boldness. I've absolutely no wish to see her only care about boys and hanging at the mall either. (I expect issues 18-20 to be dire and heavy handed, however).

Oh, and I'd say you've seriously misjudged Gail - you are right pre-Outsiders, but the main Huntress story in BoP is starting her at the level outsiders reduced her to, and then bringing her back to and past the point she was before she joined the Outsiders. It's the main story Gail writes - take them down to their lowest point, have them realise it and say "never again" and then rebuild themselves as stronger than ever. IIRC, Huntress has slept with a total of one person a total of once in the entire 51 issues Gail has been writing BoP . That's hardly a "stupid wanton". It's simply that that one person was bad enough to force Huntress to realise that she'd better pull herself together after what Winnick had done to her in Outsiders...

[Mia]

My problem with Supergirl is that I can in no way see her as a hero or even a good person. I can't off hand think of anything she has done that was not in her own self interest, she was bought off the defence of Kandor, and has generally behaved like a spoilt (or more accurately spoiled by Jor-El) brat....

Then I guess that you haven't been following the book. Supergirl #9, Supergirl #9 she stops a man from beating his wife. She runs into traffic to save a girls life. Supergirl #13 she helps save Mexico City.

Infinite Crisis Holiday Special, despite several rebuffs she reuintes an estranged father with his daughter.

That's not heroic to you?



Oh, and I'd say you've seriously misjudged Gail - you are right pre-Outsiders, but the main Huntress story in BoP is starting her at the level outsiders reduced her to, and then bringing her back to and past the point she was before she joined the Outsiders. It's the main story Gail writes - take them down to their lowest point, have them realise it and say "never again" and then rebuild themselves as stronger than ever. IIRC, Huntress has slept with a total of one person a total of once in the entire 51 issues Gail has been writing BoP . That's hardly a "stupid wanton". It's simply that that one person was bad enough to force Huntress to realise that she'd better pull herself together after what Winnick had done to her in Outsiders...


Actually you have it backwards. Pre-Outsiders and Birds of Prey. Huntress was actually uptight and very choosy about men.

Yes Devin Grayson did write a story where she reduced her to being a prostitutue by having her sleep with Nightwing for the sole purpose of getting into the Bat group. Chuck Dixon and Greg Rucka fixed up that story and re-deemed Helena's reputation by making it seem as if she liked Dick all along. Then Winnick came along and used her to make his pet 'Marty Stu' character Arsenal look like a stud, by having him use Huntress sexually so that he can brag to his friends. Then Gail Simone decided to compound the story in BOP by having her sleep with Josh a man who just finished treating her like garbage. It shows that Huntress has no discernment and no self-respect.

Added to that (and this is where the stupid comes in), Huntress in BoP can't seem to a descision on her own without running to Oracle for guidance. Yeah this is the same character in who got herself out of being blackmailed by the mob. Now needs lessons on how to be 'tough and ruthless' from Oracle. When she finds out that Oracle betrayed her trust. Instead of telling Barbara to go to hell (like the old Huntress would have done) she stands there and cries like a baby.

I would rather read about Supergirl over that mess of a character any day. At least Kara knows what to do when a man mistreats her.

[Alerex]

The reason I continue to get Supergirl is that is is just plain weird every issue, things are changing so fast.



Added to that (and this is where the stupid comes in), Huntress in BoP can't seem to a descision on her own without running to Oracle for guidance. Yeah this is the same character in who got herself out of being blackmailed by the mob. Now needs lessons on how to be 'tough and ruthless' from Oracle. When she finds out that Oracle betrayed her trust. Instead of telling Barbara to go to hell (like the old Huntress would have done) she stands there and cries like a baby.

I would rather read about Supergirl over that mess of a character any day. At least Kara knows what to do when a man mistreats her.

BOP Huntress is nothing like No Mans Land Huntress.

[Francis]

Then I guess that you haven't been following the book. Supergirl #9, Supergirl #9 she stops a man from beating his wife. She runs into traffic to save a girls life. Supergirl #13 she helps save Mexico City.

Infinite Crisis Holiday Special, despite several rebuffs she reuintes an estranged father with his daughter.

That's not heroic to you?

I've avoided Infinite Crisis as much as I possibly could. But for Supergirl to prevent a man beating his wife and for her to run into traffic isn't particularly heroic. It would be for e.g. Huntress - but cars just bounce off Supergirl. Heroism requires some measure of personal risk.

Pre-Outsiders, Huntress was very choosy about men, granted. Outsiders ended that until it could be restored. There are two approaches - a lazy author would simply retcon it away, whereas a good one would accept it and have the character deal with the issues. Gail chose the latter approach for both Canary and Huntress and has written "the last Black Canary hostage story" and the last Huntress slut story (she hopes in both cases) - same methodology to both - take them as low as possible on the arc, have them take a look round, be pissed, and prevent it happening again. And in neither case has something remotely comparable happened again. After Josh, I do not know of a single person Huntress has slept with in BoP - and she's had more than 40 issues to do so. This is her old level of choosiness.

When did you stop reading BoP? Helena was pissed when Oracle tried to manipulate her and more or less walked out of the Birds. She then recruited Creote and Savant in a plan to take down the entirity of Gotham's mafia (something she wouldn't have had the skill to attempt at the time of Cry for Blood), but realised she needed more firepower than the three of them had between them - and hence called in a favour and recruited Oracle and the rest of the Birds.

And it isn't lessons on being tough and ruthless she needs from Oracle - it's lessons in being manipulative on a wide scale (and the extra firepower Oracle has access to). Huntress has always been kick-in-the-door tough and ruthless (Batman has nothing on her here) but isn't very good at treating people like pieces on a chessboard. Oracle is the reverse. But to take down the entire mob, Huntress realised that the chessboard would be more effective.

To be honest, we agree entirely on the Winnick, and Grayson takes on Huntress. You would rather they were retconned out to leave Huntress the way she was. I detest retcons (I consider them lazy writing) and would rather the events were left in tact, but they were dealt with and the character got to overcome previous lapses in judgement - which is exactly the route Gail has taken.

[Animation]

I bought the POWER and CANDOR trades and I find the stories to be confusing. Also, they werent that good, so far. The first trade seems to be mostly about dragging Supergirl around the various DCU people and (through "misunderstandings") having her beat them all up to show how uber she is. She basically humiliates them all, and uses their powers as well as they do in some cases (Flash). Then there is all the nonsense with the "Evil" version of her. Frankly I could hardly tell the difference. They both wailed on people, just for vaguely different reasons. Then the CANDOR book was out of left field. I guess I must have missed something but you cant just transition from the POWER trade to the CANDOR trade. Suddenly she is in some other dimension getting tattoos and beating up eviljesus-superman and then selling out and letting him go.

Good grief. I'm tempted to keep getting the trades and the legion trades with her just of how damn weird, stupid, and/or confusing it is. Also, she is pretty much shallow, selfish, and vaguely trashy. She should totally do the Sore Losers thing and use her super strength in her stripper act. :) And yet ... in a way ... I like the fact that she is just a shallow monster (socially). In a way its more "realistic" behavior really. I feel like all her "hero" action has been self-centered, convenient, or simply a side effect of being baited by Luthor; all stuff she just kinda fell into. She seems motivated by a need to show out / prove herself as well as perhaps boredom.

She annoys me, and yet I'm intrigued, perhaps because she is so irritating. I do wish she'd put on 30 pounds and stop with all the midriff action. Sometimes she is drawn to where I almost expect her to be doing lines of coke and shooting pool at the dive on the other side of town or something. Have they done an episode where she gets so high she cant fly and she has to stagger back to her trailer? :)

OK, I'm kinda giving her a hard time but I just dont know. I find her vaguely repellent but almost captivating. Its like watching Springer. I'm staying on board, but its pretty confusing. My knowledge of Supergirl is limited to the later-day Linda Danvers SuperGirl and the Animated DCU SuperGirl, so the contrast is pretty striking. It *IS* entertaining though, if in a weird way.

Lewis

[Mia]

BOP Huntress is nothing like No Mans Land Huntress.


Oh it's like two different characters.

[Alerex]

I think the Candor storyline was cut short so it did not really have an end and then Kelly came on and is using fractured storytelling to get at some point. That now we will not get now that the writer is changing.

Also the change in Huntress is last thing DC had to do to get rid of everything Chuck Dixion did for the Bat Group. And thats a shame.

[Mia]

I've avoided Infinite Crisis as much as I
possibly could. But for Supergirl to prevent a man beating his
wife and for her to run into traffic isn't particularly heroic. It
would be for e.g. Huntress - but cars just bounce off Supergirl.
Heroism requires some measure of personal risk.,..

One can say the same thing about Superman and Wonderwoman as well. Are
their acts less heroic because they are hard to hurt? Being heroic has nothing to do whether or not one gets hurt. It has to do with being brave,
courageous and altruistic. Which is what Supergirl does in those
instances.


Pre-Outsiders, Huntress was very choosy about men, granted. Outsiders
ended that until it could be restored. There are two approaches - a
lazy author would simply retcon it away, whereas a good one would accept
it and have the character deal with the issues. Gail chose the latter
approach for both Canary and Huntress and has written "the last Black
Canary hostage story" and the last Huntress slut story (she hopes in
both cases) - same methodology to both - take them as low as possible on
the arc,..


I've heard this excuse time and time again. And I find it invalid.
Because if there were any validity to that claim. Then Gail Simone
would not have conveniently ignored the fact that prior to her taking
over the book. Oracle and Huntress hated each other. She would not have
ignored the fact that Huntress would be the last person that Oracle
would call considering the roster of superheroes she has acess to. She
would not have ignored the fact that Oracle left Huntress out to dry
during NML, and after a betrayal like this Huntress would never have joined BoP in a million year.


have them take a look round, be pissed, and prevent it happening again.
And in neither case has something remotely comparable happened again.
After Josh, I do not know of a single person Huntress has slept with in
BoP - and she's had more than 40 issues to do so. This is her old
level of choosiness..

The same story could have been told. By having Helena go home with a
'nice guy' and finding out later that he wasn't so nice after all. As
was the case with Braun in 'Manhunt'. It would have been fitting with
the character and would not have taken anything away from her. Instead
she's now been relagated to a woman who will not only allow a man to be disresepct her. She will also disrobe and open her body to him. Pathetic.


The damage has been done. Now when some immature fan boy makes up a list of the 'sluttiest women in the DCU' her name is always there. Her reputation and character have been completely ruined.

The Winnick story not only revolts me as a Huntress fan. But as a woman
as well. It baffles my mind why Gail Simone would want to capitilize on
it, by claiming that she does not want to ignore what happened in past
books. When she conveniently ingnored 95% of everything else that
happened before that. It's as if the only thing Gail Simone was
interested in focusing on or mainting from other books/authors was who
she slept with in the past.



When did you stop reading BoP? Helena was pissed when Oracle tried to
manipulate her and more or less walked out of the Birds. She then
recruited Creote and Savant in a plan to take down the entirity of
Gotham's mafia (something she wouldn't have had the skill to attempt at
the time of Cry for Blood), but realised she needed more firepower than
the three of them had between them - and hence called in a favour and
recruited Oracle and the rest of the Birds.

And it isn't lessons on being tough and ruthless she needs from Oracle -
it's lessons in being manipulative on a wide scale (and the extra
firepower Oracle has access to). Huntress has always been
kick-in-the-door tough and ruthless (Batman has nothing on her here) but
isn't very good at treating people like pieces on a chessboard. Oracle
is the reverse. But to take down the entire mob, Huntress realised that
the chessboard would be more effective..

Again an invalid argument. Huntress has already been known for being
ruthless and manipulative. Go read Huntress: Cry For Blood. And see how
she extracts herself from being blackmailed. She used her brain in that.
Not her fists.


To be honest, we agree entirely on the Winnick, and Grayson takes on
Huntress. You would rather they were retconned out to leave Huntress
the way she was. I detest retcons (I consider them lazy writing) and
would rather the events were left in tact, but they were dealt with and
the character got to overcome previous lapses in judgement - which is
exactly the route Gail has taken.

Well sorry that you hate retcons but there's plenty of it in BoP.

Virtually everything that made Huntress an interesting and unique
character was stripped away from the character.

1. Huntress was fired from the GCPSB for going AWOL, not for showing up
with bruises as was mentioned in BoP.
2. Huntress was a heavy duty devout Catholic. Now in BoP she has a
'problem with Churches'. And can't tell the difference between a
religion and cult.
3. One of the reasons that Huntress could never get into Batgroup. Was
because she could not stomach Batman's arrogance and disrespect. Now in
BoP she stands by and allows others to mistreat her.

And I could go on and on.... but those are all examples of the character being retconned. I don't even recognize the original character whom I admired when I first discovered her. And you're right when I would like to see this whole thing retconned out. And see Huntress restored to the intelligent self-respecting woman she was before Judd Winnick and Gail Simone decided to ruin her.

[Francis]

One can say the same thing about Superman and Wonderwoman as well. Are their acts less heroic because they are hard to hurt? Being heroic has nothing to do whether or not one gets hurt. It has to do with being brave, courageous and altruistic. Which is what Supergirl does in those instances.

And as I have said, it is not braveor courageous to rescue someone from traffic if the car will just bounce off you. Superman and Wonderwoman aren't particularly brave or courageous in those instances - but will keep going (rather than abandon Kandor) when they meet opposition that either matches or excedes their weight class.

I've heard this excuse time and time again. And I find it invalid.
Because if there were any validity to that claim. Then Gail Simone
would not have conveniently ignored the fact that prior to her taking
over the book. Oracle and Huntress hated each other.

She didn't. She underplayed it, granted. But it certainly wasn't ignored.

She would not have ignored the fact that Huntress would be the last person that Oracle would call considering the roster of superheroes she has acess to. She would not have ignored the fact that Oracle left Huntress out to dry during NML, and after a betrayal like this Huntress would never have joined BoP in a million year.

From memory, there were plot reasons for the former (which IIRC included Huntress breaking into the clocktower). I suspect there were actually metaplot reasons, but I digress... And as for the latter, it explicitely was Canary that brought Huntress into the Birds, rather than Oracle.

The same story could have been told. By having Helena go home with a 'nice guy' and finding out later that he wasn't so nice after all. As
was the case with Braun in 'Manhunt'. It would have been fitting with the character and would not have taken anything away from her. Instead she's now been relagated to a woman who will not only allow a man to be disresepct her. She will also disrobe and open her body to him. Pathetic.

Except that manhunt clearly wasn't a big enough wake up call. For one thing, Outsiders happens after Manhunt. For another, with the Manhunt arc, Helena can easily blame the telepath - Josh is a bad enough choice that she can only blame herself. Just being taken in by a nice guy wouldn't be enough for most people to reevaluate themselves - and Huntress has always been headstrong.

The damage has been done. Now when some immature fan boy makes up a list of the 'sluttiest women in the DCU' her name is always there. Her reputation and character have been completely ruined.

That was managed long before Gail came onto the scene.

The Winnick story not only revolts me as a Huntress fan. But as a woman as well.

I don't claim to be a woman - but I tend to agree with you here. But then I've never read anything by Winnick that didn't either exasperate me, leave me cringing, or revolt me.

It baffles my mind why Gail Simone would want to capitilize on
it, by claiming that she does not want to ignore what happened in past
books. When she conveniently ingnored 95% of everything else that
happened before that. It's as if the only thing Gail Simone was
interested in focusing on or mainting from other books/authors was who
she slept with in the past.

Because that is the worst major theme of Huntress. Which is precisely the same reason she focussed on Black Canary being a hostage in her first arc. Gail has explicitely stated on her blog that a good story always revolves round something bad at the centre of it rather than something good. So she focusses on the weaknesses and characters overcoming them.

Again an invalid argument. Huntress has already been known for being
ruthless and manipulative. Go read Huntress: Cry For Blood. And see how
she extracts herself from being blackmailed. She used her brain in that.
Not her fists.

You mean where she asks someone to have someone else murdered in order to protect her secret? Ruthless, yes. Very sloppy and inept by the standards of manipulation by a hero. And enough against Huntress's morals that she ended up throwing away her crucifix.

In short, she used a very crude method that completely shattered her moral belief in herself. And you say that this is evidence that she is a good manipulator? Rather than occasionally cunning when cornered like a rat in a trap?

Well sorry that you hate retcons but there's plenty of it in BoP.

Gail isn't the best with continuity and detail I agree - but I don't agree with your specific points.

Virtually everything that made Huntress an interesting and unique
character was stripped away from the character.

Um... Most of it was shattered long before that. Gail has taken one of only two ways I can see of fixing things. The other one would be to end up with a much harder and more violent Huntress of the sort Warren Ellis would write. (Which is I think more of what you want).

1. Huntress was fired from the GCPSB for going AWOL, not for showing up with bruises as was mentioned in BoP.

IIRC, it was mentioned that principals didn't like it, and that it made it very hard for her to get a job as a teacher. Not that that's why she was fired. (And who says that GCPSB was the last school she was fired from anyway?)

2. Huntress was a heavy duty devout Catholic. Now in BoP she has a
'problem with Churches'. And can't tell the difference between a religion and cult.

Re-read the end of Cry for Blood. She threw away her crucifix, appaled at what she had done. Her being Huntress at that point clashed badly with her faith and she canonically lost the crucifix from her costume. I doubt the Outsiders went into that in detail, but one obvious interpretation here is that throwing away her crucifix was also symbolic of her losing her faith.

If this is the case (and I believe that that's Gail's reading), it explains a lot. Firstly, by the start of BoP, she's not a Catholic she's an ex-Catholic and because she was such a devout Catholic, the wounds are still raw. This explains her promiscuity - she's severed ties with her moral bedrock and doesn't have anything to replace them with. (There are reasons behind the reputation of convent-educated girls). She has (or rather had - she's again going to Mass) a problem with churches precisely because she lost her faith which was an important part of her life - and her not differentiating a religion from a cult is due to the pain of losing her faith (the most anti-religious people I know are ex-Catholics and ex-Evangelicals).

Gail is not writing Huntress as anything other than a Catholic. But she is writing Huntress as a Catholic going through a fairly long spiritual crisis which started with her ditching the crucifix at the end of Cry for Blood (or more probably with her arranging a murder in Cry for Blood), and of which promiscuity was one symptom. Gail is also writing Huntress as recovering from her spiritual crisis - and (as happens in such cases) ending up stronger than ever.

3. One of the reasons that Huntress could never get into Batgroup. Was because she could not stomach Batman's arrogance and disrespect. Now in BoP she stands by and allows others to mistreat her.

When? Oracle practically had to crawl to have a chance of bringing her back. And Huntress only came back under her own terms - the price amounted to the entire Gotham mafia.

And I could go on and on.... but those are all examples of the character being retconned.

The first wasn't valid. The second is only possibly a retcon - and is entirely consistent with your objection to her. The third you'll need to provide examples of.

I don't even recognize the original character whom I admired when I first discovered her. And you're right when I would like to see this whole thing retconned out.

I do recognise her - but she's really been through the wringer since No Man's Land. And has only really emerged from it in the last 20-30 issues of BoP.

And see Huntress restored to the intelligent self-respecting woman she was before Judd Winnick and Gail Simone decided to ruin her.

For the first time, Huntress is intelligent and using her brain rather than simply a little cunning when she's cornered (as in CFB).

[VietN]

I bought the POWER and CANDOR trades and I find the stories to be confusing. Also, they werent that good, so far. The first trade seems to be mostly about dragging Supergirl around the various DCU people and (through "misunderstandings") having her beat them all up to show how uber she is. She basically humiliates them all, and uses their powers as well as they do in some cases (Flash). Then there is all the nonsense with the "Evil" version of her. Frankly I could hardly tell the difference. They both wailed on people, just for vaguely different reasons. Then the CANDOR book was out of left field. I guess I must have missed something but you cant just transition from the POWER trade to the CANDOR trade. Suddenly she is in some other dimension getting tattoos and beating up eviljesus-superman and then selling out and letting him go.

Good grief. I'm tempted to keep getting the trades and the legion trades with her just of how damn weird, stupid, and/or confusing it is. Also, she is pretty much shallow, selfish, and vaguely trashy. She should totally do the Sore Losers thing and use her super strength in her stripper act. :) And yet ... in a way ... I like the fact that she is just a shallow monster (socially). In a way its more "realistic" behavior really. I feel like all her "hero" action has been self-centered, convenient, or simply a side effect of being baited by Luthor; all stuff she just kinda fell into. She seems motivated by a need to show out / prove herself as well as perhaps boredom.

She annoys me, and yet I'm intrigued, perhaps because she is so irritating. I do wish she'd put on 30 pounds and stop with all the midriff action. Sometimes she is drawn to where I almost expect her to be doing lines of coke and shooting pool at the dive on the other side of town or something. Have they done an episode where she gets so high she cant fly and she has to stagger back to her trailer? :)

OK, I'm kinda giving her a hard time but I just dont know. I find her vaguely repellent but almost captivating. Its like watching Springer. I'm staying on board, but its pretty confusing. My knowledge of Supergirl is limited to the later-day Linda Danvers SuperGirl and the Animated DCU SuperGirl, so the contrast is pretty striking. It *IS* entertaining though, if in a weird way.

Lewis

I've had the opportunity to read a bit of this series here and there and while I don't think I have enough info on the matter I'd be willing to bet that you hit the nail on the head. Haha humoursly enough.

[IamtheRock3]

I like to see Kara as a strong confident young woman....I dont want to see story after story of Kara crying (which is why I wasn't impressed with the August Cover)

Kara wasn't teasing PowerBoy...he had boundry issues and she thought he had potential...he thought they were soulmates from the time he saw her on Apocalypse.

For me seeing Kara wallow in self pity or crying over a bad decision is a male writer saying "women are emotional lets exploit that" and that's wrong and completely out of character

Yes she's conflicted but she's been so the entire series and she's taken it on more logically than emotionally


I dont know her big cousin Superman aint ashame to shed some tears

maybe it runs in the family