Punisher: War Zone

[Eric Henson]

Everyone can empathze (on some level) with wanting to pick up a gun and hunt down the scum that killed their loved ones. But picking up a gun and hunting down any old scum that crosses your path just because they're scum and scum have it coming? That's a tougher sell. The first is a tortured, grief-ridden family man seeking justice for his family; the second is a serial killer bumping off anyone who fits his profile.

Which isn't to say that that couldn't work as a movie. It can (and has). But it can't really work as a movie with Castle as the hero. In order for that to work, there has to be some attempt to get inside his head and heart, at least enough so that the audience has a chance to make sense of what he's doing. Because when the audience sees him methodically hunting down and murdering criminals who have nothing to do with what happened to his family, then his motives lose a lot of cover. Without that, he really is not much different than Jason or Freddy: a guy who's decided that he hates a certain kind of people and is hell bent on killing them all.

(And I'm speaking of general movie audiences here, who don't necessarily look at these things through the same eyes as comic book fans.)


I agree. The only way to really depict Castle as the hero (while going after the general criminal population) is to make the audience care about the impact of that criminal just as much as Frank does. Basically, they'd have to make the villan so terrible that even we would want to get out of our seats and jump through the screen to strangle him/her. Either that or they'd have to introduce a character or a cast of characters that are victimzed in a similar way that Frank was. It would have to be extremely tragic...something Frank would refuse to stand for because it would hit home too much. In essence, the audience would then see Frank as the "avenger"--the one who fights back for those who can't and/or won't (even though Frank would affirm at the end that he didn't do it for the helpless. He did it for his lost family or himself). Maybe that could work on some level.

[Eric Henson]

Oops.

Almost double posted the same text twice....

[Jmacq1]

I'm just saying Castle has at least as much depth as a Rambo. Or a Blade, for that matter. The real difference here is that Punisher movies have been made for years, just without the skull or the name. Vengeance flicks are nothing new. And the Punisher films that have been made don't really push the sub-genre anywhere. Which isn't to say they couldn't, they just haven't.

Actually, I think that might've been what the director was going for here: Something a whole lot more "comic-booky" than your typical "revenge film." Because it really wasn't the latter, and was just ridiculous enough to be attempting to be the former.

In other words, in order to try to differentiate the Punisher, you need to play up the comic-book aspects of it. But I tend to agree with some of the others who've said that the Punisher just doesn't work well as a commercial property on the big screen, and probably never will. Within the Marvel Universe he's somewhat unusual/an anomaly, but when he stands alone, as noted, he's just another crazy vet on a revenge kick that we've seen dozens of times before.

Scrap 'em all, do a Daredevil movie with the Punisher as the villain.

[arp2008]

It seems a good Punisher is not possible. Check out this weekends box office numbers here - http://joblo.com/weekend-box-office. War: Zone opened in 8th place with a $4 million dollar gross with a production cost of $34 million. In comparison, the 2004's Thomas Janded starring version gossed $13 million dollars its opening weekend and finished with a total of $34 million. I don't see War: Zone collecting even that amount with this weekends poor performance. Could War Zones failer be due to its terrible promotion, made-for-tv cinematography (the trailers looked bad), awkward release date (action film of this sordid nature in December? Really? When everything is supposed to be merry and in fine fettle?) one-note hero, bad word of mouth, lack of big Hollywood names, poor story, the less than encouraging reviews? Whatever the case, it gives the impression that Mr. Castle and the big sceen and are like oil and water. As the link above says in light of this flop we may not see another Punisher film for a good long while.

When do you think - if ever - Frank may make a successful return to the bid screen and in what form? Sequel? Requel? Reboot? Or should he not see the silver screen ever again?

[Kaos]

I just had a zoot and watched the trailer, I've found out the formula.

Watch this movie...HIGH!

[Jmacq1]

It seems a good Punisher is not possible. Check out this weekends box office numbers here - http://joblo.com/weekend-box-office. War: Zone opened in 8th place with a $4 million dollar gross with a production cost of $34 million. In comparison, the 2004's Thomas Janded starring version gossed $13 million dollars its opening weekend and finished with a total of $34 million. I don't see War: Zone collecting even that amount with this weekends poor performance. Could War Zones failer be due to its terrible promotion, made-for-tv cinematography (the trailers looked bad), awkward release date (action film of this sordid nature in December? Really? When everything is supposed to be merry and in fine fettle?) one-note hero, bad word of mouth, lack of big Hollywood names, poor story, the less than encouraging reviews? Whatever the case, it gives the impression that Mr. Castle and the big sceen and are like oil and water. As the link above says in light of this flop we may not see another Punisher film for a good long while.

When do you think - if ever - Frank may make a successful return to the bid screen and in what form? Sequel? Requel? Reboot? Or should he not see the silver screen ever again?

Uhm...you -do- know that box office numbers have nothing to do with quality, right? Not that Punisher: War Zone was good, mind you, but it was (at least for me) thoroughly entertaining, just not necessarily in the way it was intended. Personally, I think an utter and complete lack of promotion was what killed the film's box-office plus being dumped in one of the (traditionally) slowest box-office weeks of the year, and yes, being a complete cheese-fest didn't help.

Personally, I think good Punisher stories could be told in the motion picture medium...but he'd likely lend himself better to a weekly TV series than to more full-fledged films.

[Evil_T0NY]

Excuse me if I might or might not be posting in the wrong area...alot of categories to choose from, lol.


I haven't seen the Punisher War Zone movie yet...I'm guessing it's good movie....but When I saw another one, I was thinking nothing compares to the first one.

John Travolta made a good villian in that movie

Another key factor...I can relate to it, emotionally (I'm big on family....I am VERY close to them) So I can relate to Frank Castle that way.


My dad is a retired Law Enforcement, and when I was a kid, he'd kind of tell us how to protect ourselves in case something were to happen or how we would "stick together" if things got bad.

My dad would have quite a few dreams about loosing us to the "bad guys" and he would sometimes "see not so pleasant things" in those dreams, believe it or not (yeah, sounds familiar to the plot of the movie, right?).

Man, I'm getting deep, eh? LOL

I guess that's why I wasn't so anxious about running out to see the Warzone movie. lol

Also, I really loved the song "Harry Heck" was going to sing at his funeral, and the way he said, "...you're that guy in the news...."

That song STILL gets stuck in my head.

And I loved this....in his "twang" "....come back from the deaaaaaaad" LOL I loved that.

and "You must be one dumb sonnofab*tch....bringin' knife to a gun fight!"

"Thanks for dinner"

There were other factors I could relate to as well. Like how TRUE friendship is hard to find and when you DO find it, it's very emotional....the guy with the metal in his mouth suck it up just for Frank C., talk about stickin' together.

I liked the way his friends wanted to "reach" out to him in friendship, they were awesome.

Not quite sure if that's exactly what happened in the comic book though....never really read the first Punisher issues.

Oh well, sorry for being "deep" lol

Anyone here can relate to that movie....it really seems to hit home, I'm just assuming it might hit home with you guys?

[celticguy]

Tavolta was in the 2nd punisher movie. This is the the 3rd.

[Evil_T0NY]

Tavolta was in the 2nd punisher movie. This is the the 3rd.

LOL...the first one counted? ;-)

[Beast]

LOL...the first one counted? ;-)
According to Marvel... thankfully it doesn't.

I liked the previous film. Hadn't gotten a chance to see the new one yet.

Might catch a double feature this friday of Punisher and Day The Earth Stood Still.

[Slappy san]

I saw it and liked it. A bit of the stuff with the little girl was awkward though. The movie also would have been better if they had stuck to the mob minus Jigsaw.

[Pedrocas]

Am I the only one who liked the first movie, the one with Dolph Lundgreen? Dolph was a great Punisher for that time. Also, what's wrong with the Punisher movies, they're always reinventing #1 movies.

[40yearoldnovafan]

Excuse me if I might or might not be posting in the wrong area...alot of categories to choose from, lol.
I haven't seen the Punisher War Zone movie yet...I'm guessing it's good movie....but When I saw another one, I was thinking nothing compares to the first one.

John Travolta made a good villian in that movie



I enjoyed the Punisher movie with Thomas Jane - very good movie. I personally thought the weakest link was John Travolta. When I see Travolta for the most part, he is John Freaking Travolta, not a villain. Plus, he wasn't all that good at being a villain.

This new Punisher - it sucked big time. I am not one of those people who bash comic movies. I enjoyed both Fantastic Four movies, both Hulks, all of the Spider-man movies, Daredevil, etc. I even enjoyed Elektra. But this movie. The villains were too over the top, like the old Joker and Riddler on the Batman tv show. All the New Yorkers had fake accents that grated on me (and moreso on my wife who is from New York). Their mob/Italian accents were phony. Jigsaw was just horribly bad.

If they had just played this movie straight up, and had people talk like they normally do, it would have been much better.

Jimmy

[Shyft]

haven't seen it, but its got pretty bad reviews over on metacritic.

[Iron Maiden]

I honestly don't know why Marvel tried again with this franchise. The character has no crossover appeal whatsoever. Even among the comic book community, Punisher fans are a smaller subset of that audience. I've sampled the book in the past and it just isn't my cup of tea, no matter who writes it.

This movie was panned by both the Chicago critics, Roger Ebert and Michael Phillips. And Ebert put both Iron Man and Dark Knight on his list of top movies for 2008, not just comic book movies. Ultra violent movies are never going to approach the numbers or attract mainstream filmgoers that a lead character with wide appeal will get.

[chrisgiff]

i liked it for what it was.

i think Stevenson is a great Frank Castle. I loved the extreme violence and the "funny" kills. I liked how all the Jigsaw scenes were really comedic and "b-movieish". I felt like i was watching Maniac Cop at times.

i thought it was pretty solid, and a good starting point...

[Evil_T0NY]

I enjoyed the Punisher movie with Thomas Jane - very good movie. I personally thought the weakest link was John Travolta. When I see Travolta for the most part, he is John Freaking Travolta, not a villain. Plus, he wasn't all that good at being a villain.



Jimmy


Hey...Mista Kotta! That is like Soooo wiiaaadd! LOL

[Sabaition]

I enjoyed the Punisher movie with Thomas Jane - very good movie. I personally thought the weakest link was John Travolta. When I see Travolta for the most part, he is John Freaking Travolta, not a villain. Plus, he wasn't all that good at being a villain.

This new Punisher - it sucked big time. I am not one of those people who bash comic movies. I enjoyed both Fantastic Four movies, both Hulks, all of the Spider-man movies, Daredevil, etc. I even enjoyed Elektra. But this movie. The villains were too over the top, like the old Joker and Riddler on the Batman tv show. All the New Yorkers had fake accents that grated on me (and moreso on my wife who is from New York). Their mob/Italian accents were phony. Jigsaw was just horribly bad.

If they had just played this movie straight up, and had people talk like they normally do, it would have been much better.

Jimmy

You actually LIKED Electra and the 2nd not so Fantastic Four movie... Your review just went out my window.

The last Punisher movie was all EMOTIONAL which I didnt care for. Not to mention how the ending SUCKED BIG TIME. That was a lame endind. Then again, Im like that only guy that thought Batman Begins was not a master piece. It was slooooow and the fight (mainly the last one) was sub-par at best. Im def gonna watch War Zone it tonight, then I'll tell you what I think.

So far everyone I know says if you like seeing things blown up and head blown off, it's worth watching. If you want a emotionally strong movie... Go see Once Were Warrior.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

what I found odd was that most of the trailers that played when I saw it were for bad teen horror movies. So I got to thinking if they made Punisher like a Slasher flick it would be somewhat interesting. Punisher being the slasher.
It kind of played out that way in the beginning, but then they gave him feelings.
If they pushed it like a grindhouse B movie, I think it would have won audiences over more. Hell, if they pushed it at all. I only saw the one trailer when Hulk came out. Other than that it was just posters.(that I saw by way of promotion for War Zone)

[Iron Maiden]

I think you can pretty much hold the wake for the Punisher movie franchise. Box office totals show that it has the worst opening ever for a Marvel movie at 4 million dollars, ranking 8th for the weekend. You have to question the sense of such a bleak movie opening around Christmas time.

Box office update can be viewed here.
War Zone (http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/12/08/four-christmases-celebrates-at-box-office-as-war-zone-gets-punished/)

I still say the other big mistake is overestimating the popularity of this character outside of comic book message boards.

[JdRavnos]

I think you can pretty much hold the wake for the Punisher movie franchise. Box office totals show that it has the worst opening ever for a Marvel movie at 4 million dollars, ranking 8th for the weekend. You have to question the sense of such a bleak movie opening around Christmas time.

Box office update can be viewed here.
War Zone (http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2008/12/08/four-christmases-celebrates-at-box-office-as-war-zone-gets-punished/)

I still say the other big mistake is overestimating the popularity of this character outside of comic book message boards.

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. While the Thomas Jane Punisher film wasn't a huge success, it still did fairly well, it made $13 million it's first weekend and made about $54 million world wide. Not going to set the world on fire, but still fairly respectable.

I suspect the problem was lack of advertising (I saw almost no TV ads), the R rating (I know a lot of fans want the Punisher to be a hard R film, but it does keep a large chunk of potential audience away), and no recognizable cast. I agree that Travolta was largely wasted in the last film, but he probably got people's attention. Sure Stevenson and West have a following, but no real pull. It probably didn't help that none of the ads I saw gave a hint as to what the storyline was about, just Frank killing badguys.

I do confess that a Punisher film probably has a bit more of an uphill climb then many of Marvel's properties. He's essentially a guy with guns shooting mostly ordinary criminals. It's something that was done to death (no pun intended) back when Charles Bronson was king. Except for the skull motif there's very little to distingish Frank, other then coming from a comic book universe. But unfortunetly you really can't touch on that since it's not one of the films Marvel Studios is producing on their own. But I still think there is a potential audience for it, but this film just failed to find it.

[kalorama]

Personally, I think an utter and complete lack of promotion was what killed the film's box-office plus being dumped in one of the (traditionally) slowest box-office weeks of the year, and yes, being a complete cheese-fest didn't help.

The fact that most of the pre-release pub it did get came in the form of negative buzz about the feud between the director and the studio and her supposed firing, probably didn't do much to gin up interest either.

[kalorama]

My memory of it is vague because I haven't seen it in forever, but I actually think the first (Dolph Lundgren) one was pretty entertaining (as distinct from "good"). It wholly embraced its cheesy B-movie foundation (as any Dolph Lundgren film should).

[StoneGold]

First, as I've already said, my issue isn't one of "depth." Except then you talk about dimension, which is the same thing. Unless you're talking about height or width.
Second, I don't think either of those comparisons are parallel. In First Blood, Rambo is basically acting in self-defense; he's fighting people who are coming after him. In the second, he's actually sent on a mission by the military (or at least a military representative) into a hot zone and takes it upon himself to act to save lives. (I didn't see the other two, but what I know of the stories in those, he also ends up in action because someone comes to him for help in some kind of "unofficial official" capacity.) He's not running around on his own looking for people to kill just because he thinks they need killing.

Blade is killing vampires who feed on human flesh. Unlike mobsters, they're literal (not metaphorical) monsters, an entire species hardwired to kill humans.

Neither is quite the same as Castle hunting down criminals and executing them without benefit of trial.


Except then you're deliberately ignoring the whole family executed by mobsters deal.

And then also ignoring the hunting down and executing criminals tactics of guys like Harry Callahan. Or Paul Kersey. Martin Riggs. John Matrix. There's a tradition of this stuff.



Which is the real issue. It's also why I asked whether the criminals in this one were connected to the murder of Castle's family. Because, as long as they are, it's a revenge killing, which gives him a motive that the audience at least has a chance to empathize with. All that changes once he moves on to the general criminal population. Everyone can empathze (on some level) with wanting to pick up a gun and hunt down the scum that killed their loved ones. But picking up a gun and hunting down any old scum that crosses your path just because they're scum and scum have it coming? That's a tougher sell. The first is a tortured, grief-ridden family man seeking justice for his family; the second is a serial killer bumping off anyone who fits his profile.

Which isn't to say that that couldn't work as a movie. It can (and has). But it can't really work as a movie with Castle as the hero. In order for that to work, there has to be some attempt to get inside his head and heart, at least enough so that the audience has a chance to make sense of what he's doing. Because when the audience sees him methodically hunting down and murdering criminals who have nothing to do with what happened to his family, then his motives lose a lot of cover. Without that, he really is not much different than Jason or Freddy: a guy who's decided that he hates a certain kind of people and is hell bent on killing them all.

(And I'm speaking of general movie audiences here, who don't necessarily look at these things through the same eyes as comic book fans.)

Part of the problem I think I'm having is you keep flipping your argument. Earlier you were saying it wasn't possible to get a good Punisher movie. In any event, the movie tries to get into something deeper, where Frank offs a fed by accident, causing him to question his mission, so it's not just a straight-up death spree. That said, this is also in theory the sequel to the movie where they established all the "they killed my family" stuff.

[StoneGold]

The Jane version wasn't put together by incompetent filmmakers.

I'm just talking about on a purely technical level here. Even if you didn't like the first film, it was assembled by professionals. It was well lit, the camera was operated by someone who knew what they were doing, fight choreography didn't suddenly devolve into B-roll from a Power Rangers episode, the music actually fit the scene... the same can't be said for the new movie.


And that's without even getting into the script or the actors or anything.

[kalorama]

Except then you talk about dimension, which is the same thing. Unless you're talking about height or width.

Yeah, okay. Whatever.


Except then you're deliberately ignoring the whole family executed by mobsters deal.

Not only am I not ignoring it, I explicitly addressed it, at some length.


And then also ignoring the hunting down and executing criminals tactics of guys like Harry Callahan. Or Paul Kersey. Martin Riggs. John Matrix. There's a tradition of this stuff.

Callahan and Riggs are cops who go after bad guys in pursuit of actual cases. There's a rationale to their engagement of criminals beyond "I hate all criminals and want them all to die." In each of the first two Death Wish films (I didn't see the others) Kersey's actions are directly precipitated by attacks on his family/loved ones. He's not randomly prowling the street looking for bad guys to kill; he's looking for payback from the ones who hurt him. Same with Arnold in Commando. That's a pretty significant difference between them and the Punisher.

After Castle finishes off the hoods who killed his family, then there is no more "revenge", because he's already got his revenge for that act. You can't get revenge from someone who's never actually done anything to you. In order to keep using the revenge card in subsequent movies, they need to actually set up a circumstance where someone else he cares about gets killed and he goes after them. And, again, there's the problem. As defined by the comic book version (which is the one the fans keep clamoring for onscreen) after his family is killed, there is no one else left he cares about. So the only way to make it work is to break from that template and have him form bonds and connections (post-family massacre) with other people, only to lose them to criminals and have him go after them.


Part of the problem I think I'm having is you keep flipping your argument. Earlier you were saying it wasn't possible to get a good Punisher movie.

I never said that in such blanket terms. What I did say is that it wasn't possible to get a good one using an exact translation of the character as he appears in the comics, which is where the whole idea of him being a more emotionally relatable character came in, because he's not that in the comics. That's been the crux of my whole point, pretty clearly laid out in my previous posts.


Frank offs a fed by accident, causing him to question his mission, so it's not just a straight-up death spree.

Well, not having seen it, I don't really see how that inexorably leads to him offing hordes of mobsters.


That said, this is also in theory the sequel to the movie where they established all the "they killed my family" stuff.

Except the "they" in this film aren't the ones who killed his family. Which goes right back to my initial point.

[howyadoin]

What I did say is that it wasn't possible to get a good one using an exact translation of the character as he appears in the comics (that's the crux of my whole point, pretty clearly laid out), which is where the whole idea of him being a more emotionally relatable character came in, because he's definitely not that in the comics.That argument would hold more water, of course, if you'd actually read the definitive Punisher comics.

[kalorama]

That argument would hold more water, of course, if you'd actually read the definitive Punisher comics.

And, as I said, I have read them. I haven't read every single issue of Ennis' run, but I'm assuming he wrote the character in a consistent fashion and with a consistent personality over the course of the book. So unless the 20 or issues I did read were somehow wildly anomalous from the other 40 or so, I think I have enough background to work from.

[StoneGold]

Callahan and Riggs are cops who go after bad guys in pursuit of actual cases. There's a rationale to their engagement of criminals beyond "I hate all criminals and want them all to die." Except that both go completely beyond their mandate in what they do. But it's OK that they just shoot criminals without any kind of trial or anything, because they're the good guys.
In each of the first two Death Wish films (I didn't see the others) Kersey's actions are directly precipitated by attacks on his family/loved ones. He's not randomly prowling the street looking for bad guys to kill; he's looking for payback from the ones who hurt him. Same with Arnold in Commando. That's a pretty significant difference between them and the Punisher.
After Castle finishes off the hoods who killed his family, then there is no more "revenge", because he's already got his revenge for that act. You can't get revenge from someone who's never actually done anything to you. In order to keep using the revenge card in subsequent movies, they need to actually set up a circumstance where someone else he cares about gets killed and he goes after them. And, again, there's the problem. As defined by the comic book version (which is the one the fans keep clamoring for onscreen) after his family is killed, there is no one else left he cares about. So the only way to make it work is to break from that template and have him form bonds and connections (post-family massacre) with other people, only to lose them to criminals and have him go after them.

Except it's a continuing mission from the first one where they killed his family. He killed the guys who got his family. Now he goes after their bosses, and the guys who try to fill in the hole.



I never said that in such blanket terms. What I did say is that it wasn't possible to get a good one using an exact translation of the character as he appears in the comics (that's the crux of my whole point, pretty clearly laid out), which is where the whole idea of him being a more emotionally relatable character came in, because he's definitely not that in the comics.



Well, not having seen it, I don't really see how that inexorably leads to him offing hordes of mobsters.



Except the "they" in this film aren't the ones who killed his family. Which goes right back to my initial point.
So, no Batman movies then? Or does the killing people thing divide the line for you?

[Lester C.]

I saw it again today. Now that I was expecting a direct interpretation from Punisher Max I enjoyed the movie much much more. Before I walked in without having seen a trailer so I had no idea what to expect which I think threw me off.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

War Zone didn't find it's voice. I don't know why it bothered me, but Castle reloading was infuriating to me. It was like, all rules are nil when you blow up acrobats and punch holes in people's faces... why keep it realistic in any way after that. if you're doing a balls out B movie, stay balls out. don't flip flop. But you know...it was still a hoot.

[StoneGold]

War Zone didn't find it's voice. I don't know why it bothered me, but Castle reloading was infuriating to me. It was like, all rules are nil when you blow up acrobats and punch holes in people's faces... why keep it realistic in any way after that. if you're doing a balls out B movie, stay balls out. don't flip flop. But you know...it was still a hoot.

Not exactly the same, but for some reason, the assembly of the Swiss Army Gun ticked me off.

[kalorama]

Except that both go completely beyond their mandate in what they do. But it's OK that they just shoot criminals without any kind of trial or anything, because they're the good guys.

Which is, of course, outsized hyperbole and not the least bit accurate. (A) They actually HAVE a mandate. Punisher has none other than the one he provides himself. (B) Cops are empowered to kill by law, when circumstances warrant. Punisher is not. (C) Unless you've been watching some extended version of the Lethal Weapon and DIrty Harry movies that I haven't seen, Riggs and Callahan don't go out hunting for people to kill for the sole purpose of hunting for people to kill.

The other characters are at least given some thread (however thin) of reasonable motive for what they do in the moment. Doesn't have to be airtight or even legal, but it should be reasonable enough that the audience can get behind it. Killing someone who murdered a love one, killing in self defense, or killing to protect an innocent, killing to save a friend, all apply. That's a sharp contrast to Castle who's trying to "avenge" his family's murder years after the fact by proactively hunting down and killing people that had nothing to do with it.


Except it's a continuing mission from the first one where they killed his family. He killed the guys who got his family. Now he goes after their bosses, and the guys who try to fill in the hole.

Except that's not what he does. Punisher doesn't just kill criminals associated with his family's murder. He kills criminals, period. Any and every one he can find. They're all the same to him. If his "mission" is vengeance, then killing people who played no part in his family's murder is not a continuation of that mission.


So, no Batman movies then? Or does the killing people thing divide the line for you?

Not for me (I went to see the last Punisher movie and the Punisher was the only part of it that worked, IMO). But for most movie goers who (A) don't read comics, (B) want to be able to identify on some level with the "hero" and (C) don't judge the quality of an action movie by the body count ... I think so.

[G. Wayne]

I'm not the biggest Punisher fan, but put me in the "I enjoyed it for what it was" boat. Stevenson was good for the most part, and I liked how even though he was on screen from almost the beginning, he didn't even say anything for the first, what 30 minutes? Then again, the handful of scenes where Castle was trotting through the streets in full Punisher gear were jarring. Jigsaw wasn't as annoying as I anticipated, but dear sweet jeebus did I hate Loony Bin Jim.


War Zone didn't find it's voice. I don't know why it bothered me, but Castle reloading was infuriating to me....

I think it was -how- he reloaded, as that bugged me too a little bit. The constant looking to all his pouches and holsters and keeping his eyes locked on the clips and guns while he was doing it, especially in the middle of a hotzone? Castle was supposed to have been doing the vigilante thing for 5 years by the time of the movie. Maybe it's just me, but some of those reloading motions would have been a little more automatic or, I don't know, faster, especially if he had an idea that someone who wanted to kill him was right around the corner.

[Ilash]

Head over to iFanboy.com for a really hillarious podcast where they review/ rip to shreads the film. I haven't seen it yet but I doubt it will be as entertaining as Ron, Josh and Conor's take on it.

[Monty_Cristo]

i saw the movie last night. i was one of 3 people. it was a lot of fun; not nearly as bad as i expected. the actor really does look like the Punisher; appropriately intimidating. and i loved the fight scenes. they were quite realistic and brutal. and the guns...ohhhh the guns! and the violence!! and the gun violence!! btw, that chandelier scene wasn't nearly as corny as the trailer made it look. it was only the beginning of the slaughter. this movie was ripped right out of the books; probably one of the most accurate on-screen comic portrayals to-date. and i don't even like the comic book character. i wish they'd do this for Daredevil.

P.S. i didn't really like Jigsaw. but i wouldn't have liked him no matter who played him. for those who plan on seeing P:War Zone, try not to think of Paulie Walnuts when Jigsaw talks.

[Damiean Dark]

It seems from most people to be a film that should have made a bit more money then it did i hope it makes up the budget in World wide and DVD sales.

[marty is ruling]

If you look at the resume of everyone it should have been a very good movie.

The director hasn't done anything great. In fact she started as a stunt-woman. And after this film...she should have stayed there. Dominic West is a good actor, obviously she had a MAJOR hand in his terrible over-acting.

And couldn't they convince the supporting cast to act?
The cops and mob guys were the worst offenders. The acting made me cringe. I'm not lookin' for Oscar worthy performances, but the community theater has better actors by far.


I think the problem is that with such a one dimensional character like Frank what works in the comics just doesn't work on the big screen.

Getting only one dimension out of a character like Frank shows a lazy writer and lazy director. There's a lot of material there to work with.

Also....The 89 ' Batman movie kept the comic book flavor intact and the movie was good.

Besides movies can adapt a character to fit the big screen. Look at the Batman franchise....the new one makes Batman and his villians a completely believable concept.
The Punisher would have benefited from this approach. In fact it would have taken less work to do so.

Fact is...many of the people who make movies are complete douches.

[Code Ten]

***SPOILERS***
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I saw this flick the other night and must say I was entertained. I didn't go in expecting to see The Bridge on the River Kwai, but rather see criminals violently killed which Warzone delivered. Seriously, this movie was entering John Matrix territory here. I really only had a few complaints:
1. That chandelier scene looked even more idiotic in the movie than it did in the trailer. Especially giving Frank the latent mutant power of moving at superspeed when in physical contact with a chandelier.
2. The villians were cartoonishly evil, I'm talking R rated verisons of Walker, Texas Ranger badguys. I was lmao whenever Jigsaw and Loony Bin Jim where on screen. It didn't help that the guy playing LBJ looked like the guy married to my cousin.
3. Everyone was sure awful forgiving about Frank killing a cop. "So you killed an FBI agent, eh, s*** happens."

Other than that I actually felt like I was watching a punisher flick. Sure, Tom Jane is cool to watch on screen, in that certain Bruce Campbellesque sort of way. But honestly I didn't see Tom Jane as the comic punisher anymore than Bruce Campbell. Ray Stevenson I did. Ray Stevenson wouldn't have bothered with any sort of half-a**ed Othello type of punishment for Travolta's Howard Saint. He would've gone in, destroyed his whole world, and killed him slowly with his weapons or bare hands.

[zebop]

With a piss-poor $4 million dollar opening week, I think we've seen the last of The Punisher in a feature film.

Let's face it, when you can't pull down bigger bucks than Elektra, Daredevilor Howard the Freakin' Duck, you are DEAD to Hollywood.

Next stop: DVD hell. Damn shame. I didn't think it was great, but it wasn't horrible either.

:frown:

[midnightman2001]

What credentials does this Lexi Alexander have? Maybe she should have NOT directed this movie! :eek:

[midnightman2001]

Can anyone explain to me the character of the Punisher? IS he just a guy with a gun?

[suttercain]

IS he just a guy with a gun?

As opposed to super-powers? Yes, he is just a guy with a gun. A bad ass guy with a gun, but a guy with a gun nonetheless.

If you're interested, check out Punisher MAX by Ennis. My favorite version of Frank Castle.

[kalorama]

What credentials does this Lexi Alexander have? Maybe she should have NOT directed this movie! :eek:

I really don't think this is the kind of movie that requires a director with "credentials." (For the record though, she won an Oscar a few years ago for Best Short Film.)

[midnightman2001]

I saw the Punisher tonight. I thought they nailed the character. This IS Garth Ennis Punisher! I liked the movie. I thought it was very good & had a good story. What are some of the issues people have with this movie?

I think what killed it was the lack of marketing & the time it was released. It is NOT a X-mas movie & it had stiff competition.

If it had been released in Sept like it the original plan, I think it would have done well.

[FistofIron]

I saw the Punisher tonight. I thought they nailed the character. This IS Garth Ennis Punisher! I liked the movie. I thought it was very good & had a good story. What are some of the issues people have with this movie?

I think what killed it was the lack of marketing & the time it was released. It is NOT a X-mas movie & it had stiff competition.

If it had been released in Sept like it the original plan, I think it would have done well.

The only thing I didn't like about the movie was that Pitsy, Ink, Nicky, and Maginty were rather weak in this film. They were so cool in the comics and I'm sad they weren't done right in the film. Other than that I thought Warzone was awesome. Eventhough its doing horrible in the theatre I hope for another Punisher flick.

[Nate Grey]

Damn...from #8 to #14! I better see this quick. :frown:

[Avenging Eagle]

I saw the Punisher tonight. I thought they nailed the character. This IS Garth Ennis Punisher! I liked the movie. I thought it was very good & had a good story. What are some of the issues people have with this movie?

For me personally, one of the biggest problems I had was with the little girl storyline. It's some of the most schmaltzy and artificial cute kid to grownup interaction I've ever seen in a movie. It's like, hey I just saw a man kill a room full of people... but I'm sure he's still a gentle and good hearted person. I don't think they should have did that, because he's supposed to be a nihilistic psychotic killer, with no emotions. I thought it was pointless to try and humanize The Punisher because no matter what, he's still a mass murder that no one relates to anyway. Not that Punisher doesn't do nice things sometimes, but I don't think it really fits anything I've seen in Ennis' Punisher, and I've read everything. The other thing was with Jigsaw. I don't have a problem with the actor, but the way the character was written in the movie. It was just too lightweight.

[christoph68]

just saw this punisher version last night 12/13/08 and it ROCKED!!!

this was the movie that they should have made with thomas jane as the punisher.

i did like the tom jane punisher but this one kicked ass all over that movie!

no punisher talking all the time like the last one, hell in this movie i don't think he said anything the first half hour of the movie and when he did it was usually straight to the point. like it should be.

lots of guns i love punisher with lots of guns!

blood and guts you gotta have that in a true punisher movie!

and the showed the back story on frank castle, his family killed by the mob in
the park just like the comic.

this movie was more in line with the comic version of the punisher than the last one.

all in all i thought it was a great movie and can't wait for it to come out on dvd so i can snap it up!

[Skribblez]

I don't think this is gonna get made..

[suttercain]

I saw the Punisher tonight. I thought they nailed the character. This IS Garth Ennis Punisher! I liked the movie. I thought it was very good & had a good story. What are some of the issues people have with this movie?


I have not seen it yet, but had I heard this before I may have seen it already.

If they ever make another Ennis based Punisher film they need to include Barracuda. One of the best fucking villains ever.

[siren3-4]

Just saw it over the weekend . . . I effing loved it . . .

This was a Garth Ennis Punisher comic come to life . . . a bunch of graphic mindless violence and some LOL moments with some of the death scenes . .

I will buy this movie and end up watching it a bunch of times . . . Fun fun fun . . .

Ray Stevenson is perfect as the Punisher . . . hell yes !!!!

[FistofIron]

For me personally, one of the biggest problems I had was with the little girl storyline. It's some of the most schmaltzy and artificial cute kid to grownup interaction I've ever seen in a movie. It's like, hey I just saw a man kill a room full of people... but I'm sure he's still a gentle and good hearted person. I don't think they should have did that, because he's supposed to be a nihilistic psychotic killer, with no emotions. I thought it was pointless to try and humanize The Punisher because no matter what, he's still a mass murder that no one relates to anyway. Not that Punisher doesn't do nice things sometimes, but I don't think it really fits anything I've seen in Ennis' Punisher, and I've read everything. The other thing was with Jigsaw. I don't have a problem with the actor, but the way the character was written in the movie. It was just too lightweight.

I agree with the little girl wasn't needed. It seems like they were doing giving a nod to the Mother Russia storyline only they didn't do it so well.

[Damiean Dark]

The general concensus seems its an enjoyable movie and for purist fans its great, its such a shame it didnt make more money to warrat a sequel maybe its worldwide gross and DVD sales can lift it up a little more?.

[Jmacq1]

The general concensus seems its an enjoyable movie and for purist fans its great, its such a shame it didnt make more money to warrat a sequel maybe its worldwide gross and DVD sales can lift it up a little more?.

I dunno that the Punisher is a big international draw. But DVD sales might be enough to push it to "breaking even" since my understanding is that this was a relatively cheap film. That won't bring about a sequel anytime soon, though.

[howyadoin]

Can anyone explain to me the character of the Punisher? IS he just a guy with a gun?

I saw the Punisher tonight. I thought they nailed the character.In the space of 12 hours you learned enough about the character to decide they nailed it? Colour me impressed.

[Damiean Dark]

I dunno that the Punisher is a big international draw. But DVD sales might be enough to push it to "breaking even" since my understanding is that this was a relatively cheap film. That won't bring about a sequel anytime soon, though.

Big guns and killing of criminal scum should be a draw:biggrin: anywhere where PWZ failed imo was in its marketing it debuted at #8 then (after a bit of word of mouh) rose to #6 before it fell out of the charts with better marketing i think it could have debuted at #2 and fell at a much slower rate.

[StoneGold]

In the space of 12 hours you learned enough about the character to decide they nailed it? Colour me impressed.

If they nailed him, Punisher is one of the worst characters ever.


Shut up, that's not what I meant!

[howyadoin]

If they nailed him, Punisher is one of the worst characters ever.


Shut up, that's not what I meant!Jesus, you and your hardcore DP action...

[kalorama]

Generally speaking, U.S. action movies do tend to sell better overseas than dramas , precisely because the language of carnage is universal. But I would think that even the French and the Germans have their standards.

[Jigsaw]

I thought they nailed the character...I saw it opening night and was impressed, they did it so well. Thomas Jane is a fantastic actor, but in the end he just isn't the Punisher. It's such a shame that the movie isn't doing so well, maybe it'll pick up speed after the holidays are over? As it stands, it's doing horrible:

Worldwide Gross: $8,410,766

[Kid Kamikaze10]

The only thing worse than an extremely bad movie is a decent yet uninteresting one.

This movie fits the latter far too well.


I will say this though. Ray was a great Punisher, and I liked Jigsaw (but maybe it's because he was somewhat similar to another Dominic West character: McNulty).


Loony Bin Jim, however, I have no good things to say about.

[Jigsaw]

I thought everything pretty much fit together perfectly, and the action was superb. Some people are saying there was too much gore, but I thought it was all great.

[Damiean Dark]

I thought everything pretty much fit together perfectly, and the action was superb. Some people are saying there was too much gore, but I thought it was all great.

Those people are idiots whats a Punisher movie without some gore?

its like adult movies without the sex:biggrin: .

[Libaax]

Its worriying that its not listed for cinema viewing here in sweden.

Thats boring i wanted to Punisher and see for myself. I dont wanna rent it damn.

Its funny how action movie dont sell these days if it isnt a superhero,sci-fi.

When was the last movie like Dirty Harry or Arnold like action ?

[The Joker]

When was the last movie like Dirty Harry or Arnold like action ?

Rambo is what comes to mind first.

Not First Blood, or RAMBO: First Blood Part 2, but Rambo. :biggrin:

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

It really wasn't that bad!

Didn't care for the end of Micro, but everything else was... not awful.

Treat this like Jason X or something: come in with low expectations while highly intoxicated, and you might have fun with this!

[Jigsaw]

The difference between Jason X & War Zone is that War Zone doesn't suck, and has much better acting.

[Jigsaw]

The difference between Jason X & War Zone is that War Zone doesn't suck, and has much better acting.

[Tadhg]

I thought they nailed the character...I saw it opening night and was impressed, they did it so well. Thomas Jane is a fantastic actor, but in the end he just isn't the Punisher. It's such a shame that the movie isn't doing so well, maybe it'll pick up speed after the holidays are over? As it stands, it's doing horrible:

Worldwide Gross: $8,410,766

It'll be out of theaters before the holidays are over.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

The difference between Jason X & War Zone is that War Zone doesn't suck, and has much better acting.

My point was that they're both the kind of films that are trashy for the sake of being trashy.

[Jigsaw]

Nah, War Zone isn't.

[Bruce Wayne Jr.]

Nah, War Zone isn't.

Gosh, I hadn't seen it that way.

Can't fault that reasoning... You're absolutely correct.

[arp2008]

War Zone is as one note as the Punisher himself. Not much variety in the couple action set peices shown and after a while I almost failed to finish the movie for it got to point where I new the film would diliver nothing anything more than point, shoot, kill, and repeat. The plot was fairly thin and I wasn't sold that the relationship between Frank and the widow and her duaghter was as establish as the film would like us to accept. Lest I forget, Jigsaw was LAME! Sure, his visage became unsightly and twisted, but that didn't really do much to his personality. Other than his request to be called jigsaw, its as if the whole incident in the glass machine had no affect on him. I'd think having your face irreperablyscared would cause some psychological damage. Oh well. Guess not. The film was a big, loud, bombastic headache, with nothing to offer than showcasing how many different ways the human head can be maimed. Ehhh....I'll stop here. I can't bother continuing. My head his still buzzing from all the machine gun fire I just endured from this flick.

[HulkSmash666]

It was obvious to me that Lexi Alexander was going for a blend of the MAX and Karvel Knights style of Punisher tales. It's obvious she read the MAX titles and took some character names, and even some direct dialogue, from the comics, but I still think she failed to translate it to screen.

Garth Ennis should have been the writer on this film. Only Ennis has captured the "true" Punisher in his stories. Noone else has come close. And it shows.

Lexi should have stuck strictly to the MAX universe, as IMO, the MK series was a little bit on the silly side with it's over the top themes and characters, whereas the MAX universe is a little more grounded in reality, with a much more serious tone to it.

I couldn't stand the look of the movie, with all the neon colors lighting up the screen. It reminded me of the Batman movies of the 90's, and looked tacky as.

Why is it that directors can't seem to get Punisher right? He'd have to be the easiest character to translate from page to screen, yet directors want to fuck with it and put their own spin on it.

'04s Punisher was set in Tampa, and had a completely different origin tale. Since when does a dark, gritty character like Punisher who belongs in the dark, gritty streets of New York, end up in sunny, tropical Tampa, Florida?

And who the friggin hell is Howard Saint? I've read just about every Punisher comic there is and he's never had a Howard Saint as a bad guy.


And I'm not even gonna go into Dolph Lundrens movie. That guy didn;t even have a skull emblem on his shirt. It was just a dude by the name of Frank Castle who lived in the sewers. Retarded!!

This latest effort is by far the closest to the true Punisher seen on screen, and was a very enjoyable movie (if your into the non-stop carnage and bloodshed, which I am), but it still fell short of being the ultimate Punisher movie.

Ray Stevenson was fine as Frank, and Jigsaw was cool too, but both suffered from poor dialogue. Something Garth Ennis could have helped with had he been given the writing task.

If they make another one after this, there is really only a couple of things that need fixing to make it the ULTIMATE Punisher movie.....

- Garth Ennis writing it.

- Different director

- No fucking neon lights, and make it darker, grainier and more realistic in the look of it.

- Strictly go by the MAX books in terms of story, characters, the look, and uber-violence.

- Barracuda!! Nuff' Said!!


I really hope someone at Marvel Studios reads this. Punisher has all the right ingredients to be an absolute classic character on screen, with a lot of sequel potential, if only they could get it right.

I just fear that the three previous efforts have seriously hurt the chances of Punisher being all it could be.

[Jmacq1]

Big guns and killing of criminal scum should be a draw:biggrin: anywhere where PWZ failed imo was in its marketing it debuted at #8 then (after a bit of word of mouh) rose to #6 before it fell out of the charts with better marketing i think it could have debuted at #2 and fell at a much slower rate.

The marketing was rather understandable though: If you cut out the gore (which you'd have to do to get previews played on network TV), there's barely any portions of the film left that won't look/sound just plain ridiculous.

[Toku King]

I saw it up until Megavideo's fucking "You only watch 74 minutes" rule(even though it was actually longer, go figure), and I'm very surprised.

"Punisher: War Zone", to me, is currently the best Punisher media so far. I have a very hard time understanding the hate towards this film, because everything everyone aid they wanted after Thomas Jane's "Punisher" is there. The action was good, Ray Stevenson was incredible, there was some very strong acting, and all of the elements of the Punisher are here. Anyone who hates this film didn't want a Punisher movie at all, because this is essentially what the mythos is. It's big, loud, fun, and full of heart. And I don't understand everyone's complaining about the little girl story. It felt genuine and strong to me. Is it groundbreaking? No. Was it a good action movie? Definitely.

Overall, "Punisher: War Zone" is only there who love ol' Frank and action buffs. It's not a masterpiece of filmmaking, but it's a large step above most superhero movies, let alone action flicks. Since this is partially by Marvel Studios, I'll say that Marvel is still on a roll. I'm ready to see it again. 4.5/5

[kalorama]

I just fear that the three previous efforts have seriously hurt the chances of Punisher being all it could be.

I would think that the three previous efforts have pretty much obliterated any chances of Punisher being anything on film again. They're done with him.

[arp2008]

I saw it up until Megavideo's fucking "You only watch 74 minutes" rule(even though it was actually longer, go figure), HAHAHAHAH That damn time restriction is so vexing, especially when your actually enjoying the movie.

[Arachnid]

I would think that the three previous efforts have pretty much obliterated any chances of Punisher being anything on film again. They're done with him.Obliterated? I don't think so.

People liked the Thomas Jane Punisher movie for sure at least. Sure, it didn't have the actual dark and gritty punisher feel, but it was still fun.

This movie might be good. I'm going to watch it now, so I'll decide on this one. Toku gave it a good review though, and I usually agree with him in terms of movies, so I have high hopes for this movie now. Though I originally thought it would bomb.

Either way, I think we'll get another Punisher movie eventually.


HAHAHAHAH That damn time restriction is so vexing, especially when your actually enjoying the movie.That time restriction screwed me over yesterday when I was catching up on Smallville too. I hate that thing. -_-

[Jigsaw]

We'll see the Punisher again one day, but it'll be years from now. I do agree to enjoying Tom Jane's Punisher, but Stevenson was much better, and the box office is still suffering. People never really made an effort to see this one, and Marvel didn't make an effort to market & promote the film correctly.

[kalorama]

Obliterated? I don't think so.

People liked the Thomas Jane Punisher movie for sure at least. Sure, it didn't have the actual dark and gritty punisher feel, but it was still fun.

People didn't like it enough for it to turn a real profit. And they liked the new direction even less. And ultimately that's the basis on which the decisions are made: money. The Punisher films failed to make enough, so they're most likely done.

[StoneGold]

People didn't like it enough for it to turn a real profit. And they liked the new direction even less. And ultimately that's the basis on which the decisions are made: money. The Punisher films failed to make enough, so they're most likely done.

I don't think it was the new direction that was really an issue, unless what you're talking about is the incompetent director.

[kalorama]

I don't think it was the new direction that was really an issue, unless what you're talking about is the incompetent director.

Didn't really say it was "an issue." Just pointing out that despite the new direction, the film still failed to attract an audience. And that failure is what will likely put the stake to the franchise, at least for the foreseeable future. They may try again in another decade and a half (the time between the first failed attempt and the second failed attempt) after the corpse of this one has had time to cool (and likely after a couple of regime changes at Marvel), but not any time soon.

[Jmacq1]

Didn't really say it was "an issue." Just pointing out that despite the new direction, the film still failed to attract an audience. And that failure is what will likely put the stake to the franchise, at least for the foreseeable future. They may try again in another decade and a half (the time between the first failed attempt and the second failed attempt) after the corpse of this one has had time to cool (and likely after a couple of regime changes at Marvel), but not any time soon.

You're rather ignoring the fact that virtually NO marketing was done for this film. I find that tends to play into whether a film "finds an audience" FAR more than any other considerations. The American people will flood the theaters for almost anything that gets advertised heavily enough. This movie, however, had almost no advertising at all, and got dumped into one of the (traditionally) slowest movie weekends of the year. That's two very big strikes against any real box-office success right there.

This whole thing had a very "half-hearted" air about it from the beginning. It seems like the studio just tossed it out there, and had already adamantly decided that they weren't spending any more money on it beyond its' initial production costs (IE no marketing money). I don't think the studio cared one way or another if it made money by that point. Trying to throw a movie into a vacuum and then saying it "didn't find its' audience" is more than a little bit of exaggeration as to the reasons a movie fails. Word-of-mouth (for good or for ill) isn't a successful way to market anything that isn't an art-house flick that's designed to be Oscar bait more so than a financial success.

All that having been said, Marvel very well may take the Punisher back into their stable and do a movie themselves before too long, since it's unlikely that Lionsgate or whoever had the license for this one will be holding onto it for sequel purposes.

[arp2008]

You're still rather ignoring the fact that virtually NO marketing was done for this film. Was promotion beyond their budget or something? For I've people say were in not for the internet they would have never known about this.

[StoneGold]

Thing to remember, it's Lionsgate, not Marvel Films. Hell, there wasn't even a MF logo on the movie, just a Marvel Knights one. I think they just didn't want the main brand tainted by it. So far, Marvel Films is 2-0 when it comes to hit movies.

[Jigsaw]

Either way it goes, the marketing was piss poor, and the movie shouldn't have been released in December.

[kalorama]

People make it sound like this movies treatment was somehow the result of oversight on the part of the studio. It wasn't. It got the treatment it got because of the type and quality of movie the studio realized they had. By today's standards, this is a mid-budget movie and was treated as such by the studio. How much pre-release marketing push did the first Saw movie get? Yet it managed to find enough of an audience to make nearly 50 times its budget and spawn multiple sequels.

Small movies that don't get a lot of promotional push often benefit from solid buzz from reviews and/or word of mouth. This movie got low marks in both categories.

I find the claims of "no marketing" a rather convenient excuse. I saw TV ads for the movie airing fairly regularly for a couple of weeks prior to its release. It had clips and trailers released on the internet to try and build interest, just like every other movie. It had web Sites and internet forums. In this day and age, TV and magazine ads are not the only or even the primary way to advertise films. The idea that Punisher was somehow shorted on this end in comparison to similarly scaled movies is pretty overblown.

Did it get the same level of marketing push that Dark Knight or Iron Man got? No. But this movie didn't have the the buzz, nor the big name attraction, or the marketable cast or crew that movies like Dark Knight or Iron Man had. It got the same marketing treatment that other movies in a similar budget bracket get. Not every movie can, will, or should get the media saturation bomb ad treatment. But a lot of the movies that don't manage not to die horrible deaths at the box office (and lots of movies that do sink like a stone after the opening weekend, when people realize that all the marketing was doing was trying to sell them crap wrapped in a shiny wrapper). It had the same chance to sink or swim as every other movie that's put in front of the public.

[StoneGold]

Either way it goes, the marketing was piss poor, and the movie shouldn't have been released in December.

So it gets released in July, and gets buried by actual competition.

[Jigsaw]

It would get buried, but a September release like they planned or...better yet, October would've been perfect. They may not have smashed the box office like other superhero movies, but it would've done a lot better.

[kalorama]

It would get buried, but a September release like they planned or...better yet, October would've been perfect. They may not have smashed the box office like other superhero movies, but it would've done a lot better.

Putting aside the fact that there's nothing close to a guarantee that it would have done any better . . "a lot better" is a pretty broad continuum. Considering how poorly it did, it could have done a lot better and still been a flop.

[Jared]

There were so many WTF moments, and not in good ways.
-Frank crawling around a table stabbing and slashing people for an inexplicably long time before anybody pulls a gun.
-The chandelier spin. Okay, so it didn't last very long, but what was the point? Frank is a bad ass because of his ability to spin upside down? It doesn't make him look like a brutally efficient killing machine, it makes him look like a tool who's watched to many John Woo flicks and thinks that stuff should work.
-Frank killing an undercover fed. Okay, that's a intriguing idea...if the movie is planning to go somewhere with it. An exploration of vigilantism, heroism, and villainy that challenges the viewer's assumptions. If you have no higher ambition than to be Saw-with-action, it doesn't fit. Dark Knight dealt with unintended consequences in a far more interesting way.
-Using a rocket launcher to kill one thug? Seems like a waste, doesn't it? It's not those things grow on trees.
-A little girl who shows no reaction to somebody getting his head blown off just a few feet from her. If nothing else, you'd think she's at least jump at the noise.
-Jigsaw and Loony Bin Jim were so over-the-top that the other actors should be commended just for keeping straight faces during their scenes with them. Jigsaw was not a credible villain at all. He didn't impress with his brilliance, or wily cunning, or his own formidability. He wasn't so evil that you can see why it takes a Punisher to finally stop him. Hell, if the police (and asylum security guards) in this movie weren't totally incompetent, he and his merry band of goombahs wouldn't have made it past the half-hour mark.


The shame of it is, I think Ray Stevenson makes for a really good Punisher. Frank storming through the building at the end was pretty good, better than the climax to the Tom Jane version, I thought. And at least they didn't mangle Frank's origin story unnecessarily.

The Jason X comparison was apt. It's not watchable. It can even be enjoyable, but you have have the right kind of mindset about what you're getting.

[Damiean Dark]

There were so many WTF moments, and not in good ways.
-Frank crawling around a table stabbing and slashing people for an inexplicably long time before anybody pulls a gun.
-The chandelier spin. Okay, so it didn't last very long, but what was the point? Frank is a bad ass because of his ability to spin upside down? It doesn't make him look like a brutally efficient killing machine, it makes him look like a tool who's watched to many John Woo flicks and thinks that stuff should work.
-Frank killing an undercover fed. Okay, that's a intriguing idea...if the movie is planning to go somewhere with it. An exploration of vigilantism, heroism, and villainy that challenges the viewer's assumptions. If you have no higher ambition than to be Saw-with-action, it doesn't fit. Dark Knight dealt with unintended consequences in a far more interesting way.
-Using a rocket launcher to kill one thug? Seems like a waste, doesn't it? It's not those things grow on trees.
-A little girl who shows no reaction to somebody getting his head blown off just a few feet from her. If nothing else, you'd think she's at least jump at the noise.
-Jigsaw and Loony Bin Jim were so over-the-top that the other actors should be commended just for keeping straight faces during their scenes with them. Jigsaw was not a credible villain at all. He didn't impress with his brilliance, or wily cunning, or his own formidability. He wasn't so evil that you can see why it takes a Punisher to finally stop him. Hell, if the police (and asylum security guards) in this movie weren't totally incompetent, he and his merry band of goombahs wouldn't have made it past the half-hour mark.


The shame of it is, I think Ray Stevenson makes for a really good Punisher. Frank storming through the building at the end was pretty good, better than the climax to the Tom Jane version, I thought. And at least they didn't mangle Frank's origin story unnecessarily.

The Jason X comparison was apt. It's not watchable. It can even be enjoyable, but you have have the right kind of mindset about what you're getting.

I think you are thinking to much of TDK when you watch PWZ.

Its supposed to be over the top the chandiler and table stuff is fine Jigsaw and LBJ are also supposed to be over the top you cant expect every villain from now on in all comic book movies to be as good as Joker in TDK they are simple evil men ironically more "real" then Joker will ever be.

And why bother with nitpicks like the girl not jumping when Frank kills the guy? its a movie for crisakes dont get me wrong TDK is a great movie but fans of who really think that film is in any way "real" get my goat i bet Batman catching a falling Rachel in TDK was a real life simulation of what would happen in such an insidence? how about catching a falling joker (a guy of around 12 stones and falling at speed) with one hand? oh and dont forget surviving the velocity tug of an aeroplane to escape chinese police and escaping from chinese airspace (one of the worlds superpowers) without a scratch.

killing thugs with a rocket launcher? its THE PUNISHER his MO is killing scum in violent inventive ways the Watchmen movie will have costumed heroes and a guy who can alter matter, Wolverine will have a canadian super soldier gone rogue, Iron man 2 will have a billionaire weapons maker in a flying robot suit they are comic book movies.

[Jmacq1]

Dude, you really need to get off this notion that everyone is comparing every aspect of this movie to TDK.

This was not a good movie. It was hella entertaining (for me), but for all the wrong reasons. Like I said, my assessment was that it was "So bad it's totally awesome."

[Damiean Dark]

Dude, you really need to get off this notion that everyone is comparing every aspect of this movie to TDK.

This was not a good movie. It was hella entertaining (for me), but for all the wrong reasons. Like I said, my assessment was that it was "So bad it's totally awesome."

In this instance with Jareds post he clearly is if you bothered to read a few posts up.

And its true its not an amazing movie but imo its good and entertaining for what it is my problem is everyone starting to quote "realism" for every bloody COMIC BOOK movie thats released.

[Jigsaw]

Agreed. When was realism meant to be a part of comic books? Comic books are a way of escaping reality.

[StoneGold]

Agreed. When was realism meant to be a part of comic books? Comic books are a way of escaping reality.

Will Eisner would disagree with you.

[Jmacq1]

Agreed. When was realism meant to be a part of comic books? Comic books are a way of escaping reality.

Realism has always been a part of comic books, to varying degrees. There's a reason the vast majority of comics are set on Earth in settings that fairly well resemble real-world settings, for example. DC stretches it a bit more, but it's still not all -that- different. There's also a reason that some of the more popular and critically acclaimed comics of the last few years have been "more realistic" takes on old superhero classics. The more narrow you make that suspension of disbelief gap, the more many people tend to enjoy the story.


In this instance with Jareds post he clearly is if you bothered to read a few posts up.

And its true its not an amazing movie but imo its good and entertaining for what it is my problem is everyone starting to quote "realism" for every bloody COMIC BOOK movie thats released.

Jared compared TDK to War Zone in ONE aspect. If you had bothered to read my own post, I said every aspect. You're the one that turned it into a blanket comparison, not him. It's also not the first time you've complained about TDK in this thread.

I would also note, "It's a comic book movie, it's not supposed to be realistic" is not an automatic defense of a poor movie. Realism helps ground the film in the audience's mind. Supposedly "normal" people acting like normal people would actually act isn't some horrid deconstruction of the comic book genre. It's adding a sense of consistency to the film.

[Damiean Dark]

Realism has always been a part of comic books, to varying degrees. There's a reason the vast majority of comics are set on Earth in settings that fairly well resemble real-world settings, for example. DC stretches it a bit more, but it's still not all -that- different. There's also a reason that some of the more popular and critically acclaimed comics of the last few years have been "more realistic" takes on old superhero classics. The more narrow you make that suspension of disbelief gap, the more many people tend to enjoy the story.



Jared compared TDK to War Zone in ONE aspect. If you had bothered to read my own post, I said every aspect. You're the one that turned it into a blanket comparison, not him. It's also not the first time you've complained about TDK in this thread.

I would also note, "It's a comic book movie, it's not supposed to be realistic" is not an automatic defense of a poor movie. Realism helps ground the film in the audience's mind. Supposedly "normal" people acting like normal people would actually act isn't some horrid deconstruction of the comic book genre. It's adding a sense of consistency to the film.

actually.

Frank killing an undercover fed. Okay, that's a intriguing idea...if the movie is planning to go somewhere with it. An exploration of vigilantism, heroism, and villainy that challenges the viewer's assumptions. If you have no higher ambition than to be Saw-with-action, it doesn't fit. Dark Knight dealt with unintended consequences in a far more interesting way.

-Jigsaw and Loony Bin Jim were so over-the-top that the other actors should be commended just for keeping straight faces during their scenes with them. Jigsaw was not a credible villain at all. He didn't impress with his brilliance, or wily cunning, or his own formidability. He wasn't so evil that you can see why it takes a Punisher to finally stop him. Hell, if the police (and asylum security guards) in this movie weren't totally incompetent, he and his merry band of goombahs wouldn't have made it past the half-hour mark.

Thats two instances the villain quotes are clearly paralells with Joker he is clearly TDK influenced in all his thinking if you cant see that then more fool you.

No one says "realism" is bad its when its taken to extremes, that the film is the height of realism in a comic book movie making all others inferior because of it is when i get angry.


Realism helps ground the film in the audience's mind. Supposedly "normal" people acting like normal people would actually act isn't some horrid deconstruction of the comic book genre. It's adding a sense of consistency to the film

So lets just throw out jumping from buildings, burns that could kill a real man and scarred face painted clowns altogether! lets make it so real the audiance thinks its like there watching a real life event! no perfectly flipping trucks no dumb police no effects from natural gravitational forces whatsover! the crowds will love it!.

[Jared]

Ledgers Joker was not the first colorful villain to grace an action movie. Jigsaw didn't suck suck because he wasn't Joker. He sucked because he was poorly written and performed. He never appeared credible as true threat for Frank, the police, and the Feds. Hell, those two patrol cops he and the goombah gang murdered at the house were dumber than most teens in a slasher movie.

[Jigsaw]

Honestly, I loved West's performance as Jigsaw, but he definitely wasn't anything like Ledger's Joker.