Top 25 Graphic Novels - CBR Edition

[Sambo253]

Watchmen - Alan Moore & Dave Gibbbons
Blankets - Craig Thompson
Bone - Jeff Smith
David Boring - Dan Clowes
V For Vendetta - Alan Moore & David Lloyd
From Hell - Alan Moore & Eddie Campbell
Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid on Earth - Chris Ware
Domu - Kastuhiro Otomo
Maus - Art Spiegelman
Torso - Brian Michael Bendis
The Tale of One Bad Rat - Bryan Talbot
Preacher - Garth Ennis and Steve Dillon
Skreemer - Peter Milligan & Brett Ewins
Adolf - Osamu Tezuka
Sandman - Neil Gaiman & various artists

Sandman got its three votes, there are now 10 spots left. As of post # 69 the scoreboard is:

Votes against:
Blankets
Torso

Two Votes:
Fun House - Allison Bechdel
Buddha - Osamu Tezuka
Promethea - Alan Moore & J.H. Williams III
Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck - Don Rosa
Pride of Baghdad - Brian K. Vaughan & Niko Henrichon
Stuck Rubber Baby - Howard Cruse
Marvels - Kurt Busiek & Alex Ross
DC: The New Frontier - Darwyn Cooke

One Vote:
Cerebus - David Sim
The Invisibles - Grant Morrison & various artists
Soulwind - Scott Morse
White Lama and The Incal - Jodorowsky
Tristram Shandy - Martin Rowson
Heavy Liquid - Paul Pope
Nikopol Trilogy - Enki Bilal
Gemma Bovary -Posy Simmonds
Fungus the Bogeyman and When the Wind Blows - Raymond Briggs
Alice in Sunderland - Bryan Talbot
Heart of Empire - Bryan Talbot
Dr. Strange - Steve Ditko
Understanding Comics - Scott McCloud
Daredevil - Born Again by Frank Miller
Akira - Katsuhiro Otomo
League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - Alan Moore and Kevin O'Neill
Fires - Lorenzo Mattotti
Hicksville - Dylan Horrocks
Human Diastrophism (a.k.a. Blood of Palomar) - Gilbert Hernandez
The Death of Speedy - Jaime Hernandez
Love Hina - Ken Akamatsu
Trigun - Yasuhiro Nightow
The Dark Knight Returns - Frank Miller
Empire - Mark Waid & Barry Kitson
Superman: Secret Identity - Kurt Busiek & Stuart Immonen
Transmetropolitan - Warren Ellis & Darick Robertson
One! Hundred! Demons! - Lynda Barry
Ice Haven - Dan Clowes
The Filth - Grant Morrison
The Airtight Garage - Moebius

[Sambo253]

First I must say, I absolutely love the "25 Greatest Comics - CBR Edition" thread, and I mean no disrepsect to that thread by making this one.

I just recently read "The Tale of One Bad Rat" and I've been thinking about graphic novels that actually work as graphic novels and not just one part of an extending series.

No, this isn't just to exclude super-hero comics, this restriction will also probably exclude comic strips and maybe even Love and Rockets (though you can certainly argue against that). With that said, I think this list will look MUCH different than the top 25 comics one and I hope everyone has fun with the discussion.

My half-arsed definition of a graphic novel is thus: a complete story told in over 100 pages, with the caveat that someone should be able to come in without any foreknowledge of the characters, setting, or writer and be able to enjoy it. If anyone has a better definition please put it forth. (With the exclusion of the 'one volume' rule, we might have to expand this to 50 comics.)

The rules will be exactly the same as the original thread. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=3986056&postcount=3) (I hope Kid Omega doesn't mind my stealing from him.)

[Chris Nowlin]

Cool. I'll think about suggestions, but let me put forth a query of a technical nature. Is one volume necessary to the spirit of what you're suggesting.

Sandman is at present in 10 volumes, but together they constitute something complete and accessible, and in terms of time it takes one to read and amount of material, it's just like a long novel.

Graphic novels fit less on a page than graphicless novels and so may take a but longer page-wise to convey just as much.

I have Maus in 2 volumes, for example, though I know it exists in one. Bone making a one-volume edition for that much material is rather unusual and many people have in in 10 volumes, etc.

Would you consider Sandman, Preacher, etc. eligible, given that they are complete finite stories collected into easily accessible volumes?

[Ed Cunard]

My half-arsed definition of a graphic novel is thus: a complete story told in one volume, over 100 pages, with the caveat that someone should be able to come in without any foreknowledge of the characters, setting, or writer and be able to enjoy it. If anyone has a better definition please put it forth.


I'm going to spend some time thinking about this.

[Paul McEnery]

Proust's A la Recherche... is a single novel told in several volumes. Ditto Lord of the Rings, or Anthony Powell's A Dance to the Music of Time, Durrell's Alexandria Quartet, Robinson's Mars Trilogy, Sartre's Roads to Freedom, and countless others.

So I'd see no reason to exclude The Invisibles, Sandman, Cerebus (especially Cerebus) or, for that matter, Lost Girls.

[Sambo253]

Cool. I'll think about suggestions, but let me put forth a query of a technical nature. Is one volume necessary to the spirit of what you're suggesting.

Sandman is at present in 10 volumes, but together they constitute something complete and accessible, and in terms of time it takes one to read and amount of material, it's just like a long novel.

Graphic novels fit less on a page than graphicless novels and so may take a but longer page-wise to convey just as much.

I have Maus in 2 volumes, for example, though I know it exists in one. Bone making a one-volume edition for that much material is rather unusual and many people have in in 10 volumes, etc.

Would you consider Sandman, Preacher, etc. eligible, given that they are complete finite stories collected into easily accessible volumes?

Yes the common definition will be the biggest challenge. You bring up a very good point about being able to fit less on a graphic page than a non-graphic novel page. And it alludes to all kinds of questions about how much we can compare graphic novels to text novels.

I'm not sure about Sandman as a whole since it's made up of parts that could almost constitute a novel themselves, and the short stories. Though I could easily see the argument that the short stories could be akin to the short chapters in Grapes of Wrath. It's a very good question and I'm open to discuss it.

However, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, and probably Y The Last Man, and 100 Bullets seriously compromise my definition. Perhaps we need an upper page limit too? I just don't think if someone asked you the greatest movie of all time that you would suggest Shogun or Roots. Sure they are both finite stories and the use a lot of the same visual language, but they are certainly different animals.

[Chris Nowlin]

Yes the common definition will be the biggest challenge.

I'm not sure about Sandman as a whole since it's made up of parts that could almost constitute a novel themselves, and the short stories. Though I could easily see the argument that the short stories could be akin to the short chapters in Grapes of Wrath.

However, Preacher, Transmetropolitan, Y The Last Man, and 100 Bullets seriously compromise my definition. Perhaps we need an upper page limit too? I just don't think if someone asked you the greatest movie of all time that you would suggest Shogun or Roots. Sure they are both finite stories and the use a lot of the same visual language, but they are certainly different.

I hope you don't mind getting this out of the way before beginning. I don't know if it seems a trivial detail or not.

I will point out that Roots is far shorter than the Lord of the Rings movies put together, which are usually thought of as one movie.

Y the Last Man and 100 Bullets are not yet finished, so I think that would knock them out. But Preacher reads well as a single story.

To me, the strength of this thread, as opposed to the other, could be the "25 greatest comics" that people could actually sit down and read without missing anything or having their reading experience affected by not reading in the original format.

Which does kill things like Spider-Man and Peanuts.

As a final note, Bone was published in 55 issues, then collected. Preacher was published in 66 issues, then collected. Both are accessible works in their collected forms.

Your call.

[Sambo253]

Hahaha, you've got me. Color me convinced. If Journey To The West in it's four volumes and 2,000+ pages is one novel, I don't see why the 1,400 pages of comics that make up Preacher shouldn't be.

[Chris Nowlin]

BTW, go you for including Skreemer! I like seeing Milligan love.

[Paul McEnery]

Further books I'd nominate, in no particular order:

Cerebus
Sandman
The Invisibles
Promethea
Soulwind (Scott Morse)
White Lama and The Incal (Jodorowsky)
Tristram Shandy (Martin Rowson)
Heavy Liquid (Paul Pope)
Nikopol Trilogy (Enki Bilal)
Gemma Bovary (Posy Simmonds)
Fungus the Bogeyman and When the Wind Blows (Raymond Briggs)
Alice in Sunderland and Heart of Empire (Bryan Talbot)

[Chris Nowlin]

I'll second Sandman without bothering to explain (because it's well known and others can do it better)

I'll also second Promethea, for the reasons that got it into the other thread.

--

I've been meaning to read Luther Arkwright and will get to it soon.

Cerebus has the disadvantage of being really boring.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, and you know what, I'd put Ditko's Dr. Strange up there, too. Even though it's never been properly collected as a single volume, and the only way you can get it is as half of the first Essentials volume, it's still clearly a novel in installments just as much as, say, a Dickens or Hardy novel.

[Chris Nowlin]

Oh, duh. Understanding Comics

[jessecuster3]

Daredevil - Born Again by Frank Miller
Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck by Don Rosa


Both of these deserve to be on the list.


I have yet to read Adolf, but I know Buddha is very excellent.

[Reptisaurus!]

Cerebus has the disadvantage of being really boring.

...

You were reading single issues from later in the run.

Am I right?

Or possibly the ending of Church and State, which lost me a little.

Pick up High Society of Jaka's Story. I personally guarantee enjoyment.

Reading Cerebus is like reading current Marvel comics. It's decompressed all to hell and only reads decently in trade.

Can I vote against Torso (which wasn't as good as Jinx, and Jinx had some major storytelling kerfulffles) and Doctor Strange? (Which was beautiful to look at, but Stan's dialog drags it down by the short-hairs.)

[Sean Whitmore]

Since we're including manga, I'd nominate Akira for the list. I'd vote to kick Torso off to make room, as it's the only one of the 5 books on the list I've read that I could stand to see go.

I think League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and Pride of Baghdad deserve consideration too, but I can't think of anything else to take off.

Superman: Red Son and Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? probably wouldn't belong, as the experiences of those books are infinitely increased with prior knowledge of previous stories.


SEAN

[Sir Tim Drake]

I don't think 100 pages is a reasonable lower bound. 60 or 70 pages would be more appropriate. I've given up on trying to define "graphic novel" -- I think it's more of a publishing format than anything else -- but there are lots of things that are traditionally considered graphic novels and that have less than 100 pages.

That having been said, I nominate:

Lorenzo Mattotti. Fires
Dylan Horrocks. Hicksville
Jaime Hernandez. The Death of Speedy
Gilbert Hernandez. Human Diastrophism (a.k.a. Blood of Palomar)
Moore & Campbell. From Hell
Chris Ware. Jimmy Corrigan
Katsuhiro Otomo. Domu: A Child's Dream
David B. Epileptic
Dan Clowes. David Boring
Jason Lutes. Berlin: City of Stones

[Chris Nowlin]

...

You were reading single issues from later in the run.

Am I right?

Or possibly the ending of Church and State, which lost me a little.

Pick up High Society of Jaka's Story. I personally guarantee enjoyment.

Reading Cerebus is like reading current Marvel comics. It's decompressed all to hell and only reads decently in trade.

Can I vote against Torso (which wasn't as good as Jinx, and Jinx had some major storytelling kerfulffles) and Doctor Strange? (Which was beautiful to look at, but Stan's dialog drags it down by the short-hairs.)

I would also prefer Jinx to Torso for what it's worth, though I like both.

I have the first 14 trades of Cerebus. I'm willing to accept that it's a great work, but I do not think guarantees of enjoyment are... appropriate.

[Chris Nowlin]

Daredevil - Born Again by Frank Miller
Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck by Don Rosa


Both of these deserve to be on the list.


I have yet to read Adolf, but I know Buddha is very excellent.

I love Born Again, but think it fails to meet the criterion of being self-contained pretty badly. Definitely not a graphic novel by the working definition.

Life and Times of Scrooge McDuck is a great suggestion, though.

I would second a vote for Buddha. Beautifully told story of his birth and youth and... I'm only on vol. 4 at the moment

EDIT: Though what made the last thread great was people being forced to explain why something was great, rather than just stating things. So let me come back in a bit with an actual explanation for something.

[Jeff Brady]

I would kick off Blankets & replace it with Fun Home.

[Chris Nowlin]

I would kick off Blankets & replace it with Fun Home.

Let's discuss Blankets before dismissal, but I'd second Fun Home. It is far superior. It knows how to hit you and make poignant moments out of shocking reveals and is a beautiful examination of her relationship with her father.

Blankets, I understand many don't love, but it is beautifull illustrated, and also forms an emotional tale about a boy trying to reconcile a conservative religious background with sexual desires. And it made Scott McCloud's "10 American Comics to Read" list. And if we don't trust him as the authority, who do we?

[Jeff Brady]

I like Blankets very much, but it felt like it could have been a bit tighter. I'm just saying, if I had to choose one over the other, I'd take FH.

[Chris Nowlin]

I like Blankets very much, but it felt like it could have been a bit tighter. I'm just saying, if I had to choose one over the other, I'd take FH.

Oh, there I agree completely.

And you're completely right about where its flaws lie. And Fun Home's strengths.

And if we have to choose, there's a clear answer.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

Love Hina and Trigun Have to be up there!

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, there I agree completely.

And you're completely right about where its flaws lie. And Fun Home's strengths.

And if we have to choose, there's a clear answer.

I have no tolerance for Emo.

But if we want to talk great graphic novels of a gay autobiographical nature, Stuck Rubber Baby is great.

[Reptisaurus!]

I have no tolerance for Emo.

But if we want to talk great graphic novels of a gay autobiographical nature, Stuck Rubber Baby is great.

Stuck Rubber Baby is more emo than Fun Home. Heck, I can't think of an autobiographical comic, book, movie or dance routine that's *less* emo than Fun Home.

But I totally second SRB, anyway.

AND I think we should keep blankets. 'Cause I'm a big milk-sop.

[General Grievous]

Pride of Bagdhad.
The Dark knight Returns.
Daredevil: Born Again.
Catwoman: The Dark end of the street.
Justice society of America:The Next age.
Empire: By mark waid.
Maus by Art spielgleman.
Identity Crisis.
Infinite Crisis.

[Agent Helix]

Identity Crisis.
Infinite Crisis.
http://msunderestimated.com/Ermey.jpg
"Who said that? Who the fuck said that? Who's the slimy little communist shit, twinkle-toed cocksucker down here who just signed his own death warrant?"

[Kid Omega]

Can we make a rule a rule to stop bandying gthe word 'emo" about?

Know one seems to know what it actually means, where it came from, or what it describes, and it just gets dropped on things as a dismissive label.

[Agent Helix]

Okay, my morning stupidity aside, I think honestly, for this list to be notably different than the original 25 Greatest list, we really do have to come to a delineation as to what is and isn't a graphic novel. Preacher, Sandman, Bone, those were monthly ongoing comics. Now a miniseries like Watchmen, which is twelve specific chapters, that's a different story, even though it came out on a month-to-month basis. It's a tough delineation to make, but I think it has to be made, otherwise we're just doing the same thing we already did, but with some weird arbitrary "this can/this can't" rules thrown in.

[Ilash]

Superman: Secret Identity, Transmetropolitan, Fables and Sandman are my nominations.

[Agent Helix]

Superman: Secret Identity, Transmetropolitan, Fables and Sandman are my nominations.

CURRENTLY ongoing series should definitely be out of the running.

[Chris Nowlin]

CURRENTLY ongoing series should definitely be out of the running.

Agreed. I assume you read my arguments for planned finite series like Sandman.

To me the substantial difference is in accessibility. "Graphic novels" are accessible comics that people can pick up and read in a format suited to their intent, and then finished, and the reader will have a complete picture.

So, sorry to Peanuts, Krazy Kat, Duck Stories, Fantastic Four and Spider-Man.

But Sandman seems fine to me.

Whereas Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, while being contained in 6 volumes, draws heavily on the DC universe, and I could see that disqualifying it. Sandman draws on the DC universe, but not in a way that makes any reader feel like they're missing something. Subtle distinctions

[Reptisaurus!]

Looking back, the thread starter said "Not just one part of an extended series."

So. I'm gonna assume this means: No Cerebus, no Sandman, no Love and Rockets, no Transmet, no Born Again.

I honestly think they're all excellent comics, but I seem 'em as being out-of-bounds here.

Probably no Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge, either. Which sucks.

[Agent Helix]

I think a solid delineation that can be made is that no long-format work than can be separated into distinct story arcs with beginnings, middles and ends (i.e. Preacher or Sandman) are really eligible.

[jessecuster3]

Probably no Life and Times of Uncle Scrooge, either. Which sucks.

Wait, how do you figure it doesn't count? It should count as much as Watchmen counts...I mean at its heart they are characters that have been used before.

Daredevil: Born Again was the first time I had ever read DD and I was able to follow the storyline through with no problems. It is very easy to get a hold of.

[jessecuster3]

I think a solid delineation that can be made is that no long-format work than can be separated into distinct story arcs with beginnings, middles and ends (i.e. Preacher or Sandman) are really eligible.

Ok so no Bone, Watchmen, Buddha/Adolf, Invisibles or Sandman?

[Agent Helix]

How does Watchmen fit in there? It's a single-arc, twelve issue story.

But yes, Bone, Invisibles and Sandman, out. I haven't read Buddha or Adolf, so I'm not going to make any claims there.

[jessecuster3]

How does Watchmen fit in there? It's a single-arc, twelve issue story.

But yes, Bone, Invisibles and Sandman, out. I haven't read Buddha or Adolf, so I'm not going to make any claims there.

The whole pirate story, most of the origin stories, characters that have been used before, everything you have damned...

[Agent Helix]

The whole pirate story, most of the origin stories, characters that have been used before, everything you have damned...

You haven't been paying attention. The Pirate story isn't a separate story arc in its own right. It feeds into the main story as a metaphoric counterpoint. The origin stories as well ALL are in service to the MAIN story of the book. You can't separate them out. And I never said anything about characters that have been used before.

Preacher and Sandman, however, you can easily separate entire chunks of those books that ARE their own, separate stories. Same with Bone, but to a lesser degree, I'd say. (It becomes really difficult with that book to compartmentalize it past the Dragonslayer arc, when the main story really kicks into gear.)

[jessecuster3]

You haven't been paying attention. The Pirate story isn't a separate story arc in its own right. It feeds into the main story as a metaphoric counterpoint. The origin stories as well ALL are in service to the MAIN story of the book. You can't separate them out. And I never said anything about characters that have been used before.

Preacher and Sandman, however, you can easily separate entire chunks of those books that ARE their own, separate stories. Same with Bone, but to a lesser degree, I'd say. (It becomes really difficult with that book to compartmentalize it past the Dragonslayer arc, when the main story really kicks into gear.)


But the Dragonslayer Arc is 4 books in, I know what you are saying about Watchmen, but it is still a whole different arc in the story, whether it ties in or it doesn't. Compare it to say Fun Home or Maus.

[Agent Helix]

No, it really isn't a different arc at all. It's a "story within a story", a classic metatextual device to enhance the original story. Yes, technically, you could take the pirate story and present it on its own, but you would be completely missing the point and reason that it's there.

[jessecuster3]

No, it really isn't a different arc at all. It's a "story within a story", a classic metatextual device to enhance the original story. Yes, technically, you could take the pirate story and present it on its own, but you would be completely missing the point and reason that it's there.

I could say the same thing about Preacher, Sandman, Transmet and Buddha as well.

[Agent Helix]

Sigh, no you couldn't, but never mind.

The point of this whole excursion is that all we're doing at this point is naming more comics that we like, without trying to think any harder about what constitutes a "graphic novel". We're just doing the 25 Best Comics again, and there's no point to that. The term "graphic novel" either has a specific meaning, or we should just resume attempting to revise the original list.

[Ed Cunard]

I could say the same thing about Preacher, Sandman, Transmet and Buddha as well.

No, you really can't. That's not saying they shouldn't be on the list, but it's a completely different thing.

Look at it this way--the James Bond or Sherlock Holmes novels. They're not one continuous story--they are different stories featuring the same characters. Now, I'd argue that, as an example, Preacher fits the criteria for inclusion--while there are different arcs, they're all related to a core journey that ties all 66 issues together. But Preacher and Watchmen are two entirely different things--Preacher is a bunch of short stories tied together to become a novel--and there are antecedents for that--whereas Watchmen offers the narrative-within-a-narrative thing that finds antecedents in works like Heart of Darkness.

[jessecuster3]

Sigh, no you couldn't, but never mind.

The point of this whole excursion is that all we're doing at this point is naming more comics that we like, without trying to think any harder about what constitutes a "graphic novel". We're just doing the 25 Best Comics again, and there's no point to that. The term "graphic novel" either has a specific meaning, or we should just resume attempting to revise the original list.

No seriously, if you want to take graphic novel seriously than Watchmen and Bone won't fit anyways, they were released in issue form.

I know how much I irritate you, but I really have no problem discussing this stuff.

I do not know how to define it but I do not think the one story arc argument fits.

[Chris Nowlin]

while there are different arcs, they're all related to a core journey that ties all 66 issues together.

I think that should be the criterion for inclusion Can it be viewed as one overarcing story?

Preacher, Sandman, Bone all can be.

[Agent Helix]

I give up, jesse. You win.

[jessecuster3]

I give up, jesse. You win.

Did you not read what I wrote, I am not trying to win anything, I think the hardest part of this is the definition and I am willing to help come up with one.

[Ed Cunard]

I give up, jesse. You win.

I don't!

No seriously, if you want to take graphic novel seriously than Watchmen and Bone won't fit anyways, they were released in issue form.

I know how much I irritate you, but I really have no problem discussing this stuff.

I do not know how to define it but I do not think the one story arc argument fits.

By that criterion, most of Dickens's ouevre isn't novels, either, as they were released serially. It doesn't make A Tale of Two Cities any less a novel.

[Kid Omega]

Over 100 pages.

An overarching structure that has a beginning and an end.

It seems pretty straightforward, kinda.

[jessecuster3]

By that criterion, most of Dickens's ouevre isn't novels, either, as they were released serially. It doesn't make A Tale of Two Cities any less a novel.


Valid, see, I don't know what the definition should be.

[jessecuster3]

Over 100 pages.

An overarching structure that has a beginning and an end.

It seems pretty straightforward, kinda.

So then would you include Sandman, Preacher, or Transmet? Strictly on criteria and not quality?

[Kid Omega]

Valid, see, I don't know what the definition should be.

A TALE OF TWO CITIES has a clear structure. So does SANDMAN. You need to read from page alpha to omega to complete the story.

Some others are arguable.

[Ed Cunard]

I never read TRANSMET all the way through, so I can't answer. I'd say PREACHER qualifies. I mean, it has a structure--a shaky one, but it has it.

[Kid Omega]

So then would you include Sandman, Preacher, or Transmet? Strictly on criteria and not quality?

No.

Transmet is not a novel. It's a series of novellas. Like FLETCH.

SANDMAN I would include.

Preacher is dicey, but I'm leaning towards.... yes. It is padded all too hell, but it still has a pretty clear structure as a novel.

[Kid Omega]

So then would you include Sandman, Preacher, or Transmet? Strictly on criteria and not quality?

What does "quality" have to dow ith it?

We're defining terms at this point... quality doesn't enter into it.

[Ed Cunard]

What does "quality" have to dow ith it?

We're defining terms at this point... quality doesn't enter into it.

I think it's a preemptive attack on "I like it it good/I don't like it it bad!".

[jessecuster3]

No.

Transmet is not a novel. It's a series of novellas. Like FLETCH.

SANDMAN I would include.

Preacher is dicey, but I'm leaning towards.... yes. It is padded all too hell, but it still has a pretty clear structure as a novel.

Interesting, I am not sure Transmet can be discarded so easily, sure in the beginning it is a bit meandering, but once his conflict with the Smiler shows up, that lasts throughout the end of the series. The beginning of the story is him returning to the city to begin writing again, the meat of the story is his succcesses, failures and becoming popular again, the end of the story is his conflict with Smiler and discovering that something from the beginning is causing him to die, what will he do with time he has left.

[Kid Omega]

Some suggestions, without time to write a proper defense....

THE FILTH
ICE HAVEN
100 DEMONS
FROM HELL
EPILEPTIC
DC: THE NEW FRONTIER
THE AIRTIGHT GARAGE

[Paul McEnery]

No seriously, if you want to take graphic novel seriously than Watchmen and Bone won't fit anyways, they were released in issue form.

I know how much I irritate you, but I really have no problem discussing this stuff.

I do not know how to define it but I do not think the one story arc argument fits.

You are quite simply wrong on this.

As I said before, Dickens and Hardy both wrote all their novels for serial publication in magazines. Every chapter was a self-contained episode. Then they were collected, as it were, for the trade. The point being that there was always a trade in mind, there was always the discreet entity of the novel in mind, there was always a thematic unity that would become clear when the story finished.

I could also mention Faulkner's The Unvanquished, which is six separate short stories featuring the same characters, again published separately in magazines. When you put them all together and read them in one go, you've got thematic unity that adds up to a novel.

I mean, I assume you'd call Asimov's Foundation a novel, but it's a fixer-up of short stories he wrote over a long period of time, with some interpolated material to link the whole thing together. All of this is standard practice.

Books like Camelot 3000, Cerebus, Sandman, Watchmen, The Invisibles, and Preacher, they were all written with a definite ending in mind so that the entire work would stand as a single entity.

Saying that the book ought to stand as a single volume is silly. By those standards, Morrison's X-Men is in, but The Invisibles is out. Bone is in, but Cerebus is out.

Oh, and for that matter, I believe Maus is out.

[Paul McEnery]

No.

Transmet is not a novel. It's a series of novellas. Like FLETCH.

SANDMAN I would include.

Preacher is dicey, but I'm leaning towards.... yes. It is padded all too hell, but it still has a pretty clear structure as a novel.

Actually, I sat down and read Preacher cover to cover about a year ago. It does stand as a single work much better than I thought, and even the padding (and the spinoff stories) hold together really well.

[Slam_Bradley]

I mean, I assume you'd call Asimov's Foundation a novel, but it's a fixer-up of short stories he wrote over a long period of time, with some interpolated material to link the whole thing together. All of this is standard practice.



I'd argue that Asimov's Foundation is not a novel. (The Mule may be just long enough to be classified as a novel and not a novella). The stories were written over a period of years, in random order, without any real over-arching design, other than a very general outline that Asimov and Campbell worked out. There was no clear end to the tale at the time the stories were written. Some structure was later superimposed on them, but as novels, they just don't work.

[Kid Omega]

Actually, I sat down and read Preacher cover to cover about a year ago. It does stand as a single work much better than I thought, and even the padding (and the spinoff stories) hold together really well.

I did the same a few months ago... which is why I'm leaning towards "novel" to desribe it.

TRANSMET is still too disjointed for me. I think you could chop it up into three or four novellas and not be confused at all.

[Paul McEnery]

I'd argue that Asimov's Foundation is not a novel. (The Mule may be just long enough to be classified as a novel and not a novella). The stories were written over a period of years, in random order, without any real over-arching design, other than a very general outline that Asimov and Campbell worked out. There was no clear end to the tale at the time the stories were written. Some structure was later superimposed on them, but as novels, they just don't work.

You can argue that, sure. If memory serves, there was always some vague scheme in mind, and as a juvenile novel, the trilogy works all right. I loved it when I was ten or so. Now, I doubt I'd make it past page 3. But it was certainly made into a novel, and that's an idea that grew over time. Perhaps "story cycle" would make more sense, but it is now packaged as a novel.

A better example though is Charlie Stross's Accellerando. Again, nine separate stories, but always intended to be published as a single novel.

Incidentally, I'd argue against Transmet on this, because Warren is clearly vamping his way through most of it, and is in fact writing to the single issue or small arc form. There's an element of closure at the end, but that's just Warren's skill at pulling a rabbit out of his hat.

Planetary, however, I think was largely planned from the git go. Too bad 27 isn't coming out until hell freezes over. There's no good reason it couldn't be packaged as one big book.

[Reptisaurus!]

Planetary, however, I think was largely planned from the git go. Too bad 27 isn't coming out until hell freezes over.

That was the planned release date, but I heard it got pushed back.

[jessecuster3]

I am going to have to think it through some more but I think Marvels deserves a place on the list. Do we even have a 25 starting list to begin discussions?

[Chris Nowlin]

I am going to have to think it through some more but I think Marvels deserves a place on the list. Do we even have a 25 starting list to begin discussions?

We have half of it. Original post said 3 votes for something could get it added. But we need explanations more than nominations.

Go!

Yay Marvels!

[Ilash]

CURRENTLY ongoing series should definitely be out of the running.

Fair enough.

[Sambo253]

Hey all, I've updated the first post with the scoreboard so far. As always, if I made a mistake please tell me.

I'm more sure about Preacher's place as a novel than Sandman's. I think Doll's House and a Game of You are almost perfectly enjoyable with no context, and I'm not sure how much they add to the overarching plot of Sandman. It has been awhile since I've read the whole thing I will admit.

On the other hand, from volume one of Preacher you know Jesse's mission is to find God. Yes it does get padded and a bit sidetracked, but I think you wouldn't be satisfied reading the story without him finding God.

I'm almost 100% sure I wouldn't count Born Again. It has Captain America and the Avengers. But why hasn't anyone mentioned Man Without Fear? (I'm not nominating it though.)

[Paul McEnery]

Hey all, I've updated the first post with the scoreboard so far. As always, if I made a mistake please tell me.

I'm more sure about Preacher's place as a novel than Sandman's. I think Doll's House and a Game of You are almost perfectly enjoyable with no context, and I'm not sure how much they add to the overarching plot of Sandman. It has been awhile since I've read the whole thing I will admit.

I refer you to the Saragossa Manuscript, The Dictionary of the Khazars, and many other post-modern novels that digress into self-contained episodes.

In any case, the Doll's House clearly has important themes and plot points that reoccur later.

On the other hand, from volume one of Preacher you know Jesse's mission is to find God. Yes it does get padded and a bit sidetracked, but I think you wouldn't be satisfied reading the story without him finding God.


Yes and no. The important thing at the end is that he finds the search for God is less important than friendship, love, and his own integrity. With the key plot point that everyone involved in the search for God winds up with their integrity literally whittled away as the plot goes on. Body parts fall off, spiritual rot sets in, and most everyone gets deaded. Best to just leave God alone and get on with your life.

[Chris Nowlin]

Hey all, I've updated the first post with the scoreboard so far. As always, if I made a mistake please tell me.

I'm more sure about Preacher's place as a novel than Sandman's. I think Doll's House and a Game of You are almost perfectly enjoyable with no context, and I'm not sure how much they add to the overarching plot of Sandman. It has been awhile since I've read the whole thing I will admit.


Doll's House adds plenty to the overall. We see Desire's plan to get Dream to kill a relative and thereby bring the Kindly ones down on him, which is essential for us to learn.

We meet Hob Gadling in the interlude.

We me Nala (do I have her name right) in the prelude, which takes us to book 4, plus one of the overarcing ideas of the series that Dream had done bad things in his past and now was looking to atone for them, except that change was then one thing he did not know how to do.

Further, it ties up loose ends of Book 1 as he tracks down others who had abandoned the Dreamins like Fiddler's Green, Corinthian, Brute and Glob (do I have that right).

And it introduces Rose who is essential to the story and we see Lyta Hall and her baby, who play a key role in the finale.

Etc.

A Game of You I'm not so sure about. And it does stand well on it's own.

But Book 7 picks up from it as it's where the romance between Dream and the witch girl begins.

[Paul McEnery]

Sadly, Berlin is still ongoing.

Unless Jason screws up, once it's done, I reckon it ought to be in the 25. (Equally sadly, while I love Jar of Fools, it's still an apprentice work.)

[Chris Nowlin]

Yes and no. The important thing at the end is that he finds the search for God is less important than friendship, love, and his own integrity. With the key plot point that everyone involved in the search for God winds up with their integrity literally whittled away as the plot goes on. Body parts fall off, spiritual rot sets in, and most everyone gets deaded. Best to just leave God alone and get on with your life.

And is it right?

[Paul McEnery]

And is it right?

Nothing is true and everything is permitted.

But I like the way Garth pulls the switcheroo to present his own point of view at the end. It's the Candide trick, but used to describe the psychology of someone with an abused childhood who fixates on religion and wars against God as a way of working through his issues before coming back down to earth and having to deal with reality (which is why the seeming padding of the sherriff & mom volume are actually really important).

[Sean Whitmore]

I am going to have to think it through some more but I think Marvels deserves a place on the list.

I don't know that I can agree. Without foreknowledge of the characters and setting, Marvels loses a lot of the emotional kick that would earn it a place on such a list.

Believe me, if that wasn't the case, I'd be nominating Kingdom Come, myself.


SEAN

[Paul McEnery]

Of course, now I'm going to flip the bitch on myself and come out like jesse c.

I love Love and Rockets, but I can't see anything within either storyline that's a true standalone novel. The resonance is entirely down to the build up of the soap opera. The Death of Speedy is the closest thing Jaime's got to something self-contained and accessible, but it's still very much part of the whole. And Beto is more intense about building constantly on what's come before, but any cutoff point of the whole is pretty arbitrary (as much as I think Palomar is possibly the best example of a girt big comic book, I can't quite think of it as a novel as much as a collection of the first three seasons, so to speak).

Or am I being too fussy?

[Ed Cunard]

Of course, now I'm going to flip the bitch on myself and come out like jesse c.

I love Love and Rockets, but I can't see anything within either storyline that's a true standalone novel. The resonance is entirely down to the build up of the soap opera. The Death of Speedy is the closest thing Jaime's got to something self-contained and accessible, but it's still very much part of the whole. And Beto is more intense about building constantly on what's come before, but any cutoff point of the whole is pretty arbitrary (as much as I think Palomar is possibly the best example of a girt big comic book, I can't quite think of it as a novel as much as a collection of the first three seasons, so to speak).

Or am I being too fussy?

No, I could buy that. I am inclined to see Palomar as a novel, but all of Love and Rockets, I don't think so. But, then again, Love and Rockets is already excluded as they still publish it serially, meaning it isn't "over," exactly.

[Sambo253]

Of course, now I'm going to flip the bitch on myself and come out like jesse c.

I love Love and Rockets, but I can't see anything within either storyline that's a true standalone novel. The resonance is entirely down to the build up of the soap opera. The Death of Speedy is the closest thing Jaime's got to something self-contained and accessible, but it's still very much part of the whole. And Beto is more intense about building constantly on what's come before, but any cutoff point of the whole is pretty arbitrary (as much as I think Palomar is possibly the best example of a girt big comic book, I can't quite think of it as a novel as much as a collection of the first three seasons, so to speak).

Or am I being too fussy?

I've always wondered about "The Death of Speedy." I am at the moment a caveman and have never read any of Los Hermanos Hernandez, but I always wanted to know how well some of those stories worked on their own.

[Paul McEnery]

I've always wondered about "The Death of Speedy." I am at the moment a caveman and have never read any of Los Hermanos Hernandez, but I always wanted to know how well some of those stories worked on their own.

Oh shoot.

Spend no more money on comics until you've saved up enough to buy Palomar and Locas (Palomar first, if it comes down to that). Mostly Beto has the better grasp of structure; at the same time, the whole work is more unified (though I'm unfamiliar with the new Heartbreak Soup stuff, and if it's still any good).

[jessecuster3]

I will definitely add my vote in for DC:New Frontier.

Of the three, Kingdom Come, Marvels and New Frontier, NF is the most accessible to a non-comics reader, as an homage to the Golden Age it is perfect, and as just a great story it is flawless.

[Subotai]

My vote goes for Hip Flask: Concrete Jungle.

[Paul McEnery]

My vote goes for Hip Flask: Concrete Jungle.

I love me some Ladron too, but it's still a continuing series!

Well hell, Concrete Jungle's still just part 1, and there's no part 2 even started yet. Isn't that right?

[Sambo253]

Oh shoot.

Spend no more money on comics until you've saved up enough to buy Palomar and Locas (Palomar first, if it comes down to that). Mostly Beto has the better grasp of structure; at the same time, the whole work is more unified (though I'm unfamiliar with the new Heartbreak Soup stuff, and if it's still any good).

Hahaha, I've recently seen more and more scans from Gilbert and Jaime and I've been amazed, this is what I've been missing out on? Sadly I'm not allowing myself to spend anymore money on comics until I've read all the backlog I have.

I updated the list to move New Frontier to the two votes category. Is it really that good? Better than The Golden Age?

[Gingold]

Sadly, Berlin is still ongoing.

Unless Jason screws up, once it's done, I reckon it ought to be in the 25. (Equally sadly, while I love Jar of Fools, it's still an apprentice work.)

The first collection reads pretty well as a complete part of a whole -if that makes sense. In the same way that each part of Dos Passos' USA is a novel in and of iitself. I'd be inclined to count it.


Howabout Kirby's New Gods, Mr. Miracle, and Forever People taken all together?

[Paul McEnery]

The first collection reads pretty well as a complete part of a whole -if that makes sense. In the same way that each part of Dos Passos' USA is a novel in and of iitself. I'd be inclined to count it.


Howabout Kirby's New Gods, Mr. Miracle, and Forever People taken all together?

Hmm. It's got some pretty things in it, but I'm not at all sure the ideas aren't half-baked.

And the dialog's pretty naff, as I recall.

Once the BFFs are all on my shelf, I'll be ready to do the rethink.

[jessecuster3]

Oh shoot.

Spend no more money on comics until you've saved up enough to buy Palomar and Locas (Palomar first, if it comes down to that). Mostly Beto has the better grasp of structure; at the same time, the whole work is more unified (though I'm unfamiliar with the new Heartbreak Soup stuff, and if it's still any good).

I only have bought and am halfway through Heartbreak Soup. from the description on the jacket this is the very first stories of Palomar. I am about 2/3rd of the way through and its great but really dense reading.

Is there a better collection to read than this one and then Maggie the Mechanic?

[Paul McEnery]

I only have bought and am halfway through Heartbreak Soup. from the description on the jacket this is the very first stories of Palomar. I am about 2/3rd of the way through and its great but really dense reading.

Is there a better collection to read than this one and then Maggie the Mechanic?

Which collection are you reading? That's always the prob with L&R, so many different collections of the same stuff, in different orders.

The simple way to go is the girt big hardcovers. But I'm not quite sure what they're doing with the new packaging.

Oh, and heartbreak soup was the title for the whole Beto series, I seem to remember.

[jessecuster3]

Which collection are you reading? That's always the prob with L&R, so many different collections of the same stuff, in different orders.

The simple way to go is the girt big hardcovers. But I'm not quite sure what they're doing with the new packaging.

Oh, and heartbreak soup was the title for the whole Beto series, I seem to remember.

I am reading the Heartbreak Soup book, this big one:
http://www.midtowncomics.com/images/PRODUCT/FUL/672292_ful.jpg


The next one is: Maggie the Mechanic:

http://www.midtowncomics.com/images/PRODUCT/FUL/672317_ful.jpg

[Sambo253]

JesseCuster3,

I think the deal with those is that they reprint every story in publication order, but they split them up between Gilbert and Jamie's stories.

[jessecuster3]

JesseCuster3,

I think the deal with those is that they reprint every story in publication order, but they split them up between Gilbert and Jamie's stories.

gotcha, thats why I asked, where to go next after Heartbreak Soup.

[Sambo253]

gotcha, thats why I asked, where to go next after Heartbreak Soup.

I guess if you like the Palomar/Heartbreak Soup stories you'll probably have to wait until Fantagraphics puts out the next volume of that. From what I know Jamie's Locas/Maggie the Mechanic stories are unconected.

[Reptisaurus!]

Of course, now I'm going to flip the bitch on myself and come out like jesse c.

I love Love and Rockets, but I can't see anything within either storyline that's a true standalone novel. The resonance is entirely down to the build up of the soap opera. The Death of Speedy is the closest thing Jaime's got to something self-contained and accessible, but it's still very much part of the whole. And Beto is more intense about building constantly on what's come before, but any cutoff point of the whole is pretty arbitrary (as much as I think Palomar is possibly the best example of a girt big comic book, I can't quite think of it as a novel as much as a collection of the first three seasons, so to speak).

Or am I being too fussy?

... Actually....

With the start of Volume 2, Gilbert put most of his "in continuity" stuff in either Luba or Luba's Comics and Stories. Love and Rockets contained Julio's Day, Me for the Unknown, (Written by Mario) and the Roy series.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, I forgot one!

Badlands by Steven Grant. This should totally replace Torso. Steven's understanding of history and human nature make this noir political thriller much more grounded in reality (and Vince Giarrano's art aren't too shabby either).

[Paul McEnery]

... Actually....

With the start of Volume 2, Gilbert put most of his "in continuity" stuff in either Luba or Luba's Comics and Stories. Love and Rockets contained Julio's Day, Me for the Unknown, (Written by Mario) and the Roy series.

Volume 2 is the stuff that comes after, what was it, issue 50, the last of the oversized L&R?

And did any of that stuff wind up in Palomar? It's been so long I could tell (or with Locas) whether it had all of the stuff from the oversized that fitted with the storylines.

[Reptisaurus!]

Volume 2 is the stuff that comes after, what was it, issue 50, the last of the oversized L&R?


Yep. Runs like this:

50 issues of Love and Rockets Volume One

Jaime and Gilbert go off and do their own comics for a bit, most notably Jaime does Penny Century and Gilbert produces New Love.

Then, couple years later, the brothers reunite Love and Rockets Volume 2, which is currently up to issue 19.

Simultaneously, while contributing work on L & R volume 2, Gilbert produces two other comic series, Luba and Luba Comics and Stories.

I think both of those are defunct, but Gilbert is now solo-ing on the three issue mini New Tales of Old Palomar. (Only issue one has been released.)

And did any of that stuff wind up in Palomar?


Palomar and Locas collect most of the material from issues 1 through 50 of the first series, but nothing past issue 50 of volume one.

These were earlier collected in trades, volumes 1 through 15.

My Complete Love and Rockets Catalog says that, from the trades [/I]Volume 12: Poison River[/i] and Volume 15: Hernandez Satiricon were not reprinted in either of the big hardcovers.

Strangely, Poison River, which I haven't read, sounds like a pure Luba story. I dunno why it didn't get reprinted in Palomar.

[Subotai]

I love me some Ladron too, but it's still a continuing series!

Well hell, Concrete Jungle's still just part 1, and there's no part 2 even started yet. Isn't that right?

I, umm, ya know, I don't know. I even heard this on the Around Comics podcast and they couldn't figure it out. Great fucking book though, great package, great story, great art. I had no idea Casey was involved until I opened it.

Wait, Unnatural Selection came out a few years ago, but Concrete Jungle fleshes things out a bit.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Strangely, Poison River, which I haven't read, sounds like a pure Luba story. I dunno why it didn't get reprinted in Palomar.

Poison River deals with Luba's life before she came to Palomar. The Palomar hardcover begins with the story where Luba comes to Palomar, and ends with the story where she leaves Palomar, so Poison River falls outside the chronological limits.

Also, Poison River is a mostly independent story that has little to do with the Palomar saga.

[Chris Nowlin]

Hahaha, I've recently seen more and more scans from Gilbert and Jaime and I've been amazed, this is what I've been missing out on? Sadly I'm not allowing myself to spend anymore money on comics until I've read all the backlog I have.

I updated the list to move New Frontier to the two votes category. Is it really that good? Better than The Golden Age?

I rather liked Golden Age, but New Frontier is superior in every way. And I suspect that's the unanimous opinion here.

Partially because Cooke attempted to capture the feel of the era in a way Robinson didn't.

Partially because New Frontier is just really amazing.

Though I'm not convinced a large part of its strength doesn't come from an inherent love for the characters, but I won't argue against it, because I'd really like Marvels to be eligible.

[stealthwise]

I'll toss Black Hole by Charlie Burns in there, because it's damned good.

And a vote against Blankets would be nice. It's not bad, but nowhere near as good as many of the others listed.

[stealthwise]

I rather liked Golden Age, but New Frontier is superior in every way. And I suspect that's the unanimous opinion here.

Partially because Cooke attempted to capture the feel of the era in a way Robinson didn't.

Partially because New Frontier is just really amazing.

Though I'm not convinced a large part of its strength doesn't come from an inherent love for the characters, but I won't argue against it, because I'd really like Marvels to be eligible.

To be fair, Cooke had much more page space to tell his story in, and I thought that Robinson tried to address almost as many characters, while still trying to capture the zeitgeist of post-WW2 at the same time. His dialogue and characterization are rather sharp. New Frontier is better, but only because it's fanfreakingtastic, because the Golden Age is quite excellent in its own regard.

[Sir Tim Drake]

I'll toss Black Hole by Charlie Burns in there, because it's damned good.

I don't like Black Hole. I recognize the incredible brilliance of Burns's draftsmanship, and I can see that he's addressing some important themes... but the book just leaves me cold. The artwork is so perfect and flawless that it becomes mechanical; it looks like it could have been drawn by a computer, rather than a person who is capable of making mistakes. And all the characters were flat, boring and impossible to relate to; I even had trouble telling some of them apart.

[Paul McEnery]

Poison River deals with Luba's life before she came to Palomar. The Palomar hardcover begins with the story where Luba comes to Palomar, and ends with the story where she leaves Palomar, so Poison River falls outside the chronological limits.

Also, Poison River is a mostly independent story that has little to do with the Palomar saga.

Okay, well that makes me feel more like there's sufficient organization in Palomar to think of it as a single novel.

Perversely, for me, the fact that I don't want to read any more about those characters does the same thing. I feel like he said what he needed to there.

[stealthwise]

I don't like Black Hole. I recognize the incredible brilliance of Burns's draftsmanship, and I can see that he's addressing some important themes... but the book just leaves me cold. The artwork is so perfect and flawless that it becomes mechanical; it looks like it could have been drawn by a computer, rather than a person who is capable of making mistakes. And all the characters were flat, boring and impossible to relate to; I even had trouble telling some of them apart.

I don't really agree about the artwork, there's a melancholy in certain scenes that looks like it'd be appropriate for adapting Kafka.

The characters is, again, subjective, but I thought that the main ones were quite easy to tell apart based on their individual drives and desires.

And the book definitely left me cold as well, but not in the "I don't care about this at all" kind of way (which is what Blankets did for me, coincidentally), but rather in the "good god is life ever empty sometimes" kind of way.

[thehod]

I'd like to chuck a couple into the ring which others may not have thought of (although my choices won't really come as a surprise)

Judge Dredd: America
Chopper: Song of the Surfer

Both a quite excellent stories, with no requirement to have any form of background knowledge of the characters or the world they inhabit (although having this knowledge doesn't hurt any either) and the art in both is gorgeous.

Although they were printed in ongoing titles, they are certainly stand alone stories in their own right.

[stealthwise]

TRANSMET is still too disjointed for me. I think you could chop it up into three or four novellas and not be confused at all.

Possibly, but those last, what, three or four trades, all run together and close out the entire arc.

The first trade works on its own, the second trade continues in that vein, but consists of a number of short stories exploring sci-fi concepts that Ellis wanted to get out before the series was cancelled, then he decided to slow things down once he knew they weren't getting the axe. After trade four, I can't honestly remember what happens in what, as it all seems to run together in a long, ongoing arc until the finale.

[jessecuster3]

Wow this died an early death, huh?

[Ray R.]

Wow this died an early death, huh?

Thanks for bringing this back, I missed this.

My top 25 GNs, in order of preference:

1.) The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin
2.) A Contract with God, Eisner
3.) Complete Bone Adventures, Smith
4.) Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck, Rosa
5.) The Dragonbellow Conspiracy (Usagi Yojimbo), Sakai
6.) Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Boy in the World, Ware
7.) Maus, Spiegelman
8.) Golem's Mighty Swing, Sturm
9.) Last Day in Vietnam, Eisner
10.) Lone Wolf & Cub, Koike/Kojima
11.) Why I Hate Saturn, Baker
12.) Understanding Comics, McCloud
13.) Boulevard of Broken Dreams, K. Deitch
14.) From Hell, Moore/Campbell
15.) Destination Moon/Explorers on the Moon (TinTin), Herge
16.) Watchmen, Moore/Gibbons
17.) Safe Area Gorazde, Sacco
18.) The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, Talbot
19.) Silver Surfer, Lee/Kirby
20.) Signal to Noise, Gaiman/McKean
21.) Adolph, Tezuka
22.) Sally Forth, Wood
23.) Fairy Tales of Oscar Wilde, P. Craig Russell
24.) The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, Ploog
25.) Persepolis, Satrapi

[Paul McEnery]

Thanks for bringing this back, I missed this.

My top 25 GNs, in order of preference:

1.) The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin
2.) A Contract with God, Eisner
3.) Complete Bone Adventures, Smith
4.) Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck, Rosa
5.) The Dragonbellow Conspiracy (Usagi Yojimbo), Sakai
6.) Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Boy in the World, Ware
7.) Maus, Spiegelman
8.) Golem's Mighty Swing, Sturm
9.) Last Day in Vietnam, Eisner
10.) Lone Wolf & Cub, Koike/Kojima
11.) Why I Hate Saturn, Baker
12.) Understanding Comics, McCloud
13.) Boulevard of Broken Dreams, K. Deitch
14.) From Hell, Moore/Campbell
15.) Destination Moon/Explorers on the Moon (TinTin), Herge
16.) Watchmen, Moore/Gibbons
17.) Safe Area Gorazde, Sacco
18.) The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, Talbot
19.) Silver Surfer, Lee/Kirby
20.) Signal to Noise, Gaiman/McKean
21.) Adolph, Tezuka
22.) Sally Forth, Wood
23.) Fairy Tales of Oscar Wilde, P. Craig Russell
24.) The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, Ploog
25.) Persepolis, Satrapi

Techincal nitpickiness:

Novellas:

The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin
Signal to Noise, Gaiman/McKean
(and I hover around the Tintin books; much as I love them, these two are more lumped together for size, I feel; I'm not sure they're even the best Tintin, and that each of them is more like an individual issue of a comic book)

Otherwise, Why I Hate Saturn is the obvious D'oh! for me.

[Chris Nowlin]

Techincal nitpickiness:

Novellas:

The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin
Signal to Noise, Gaiman/McKean
(and I hover around the Tintin books; much as I love them, these two are more lumped together for size, I feel; I'm not sure they're even the best Tintin, and that each of them is more like an individual issue of a comic book)

Otherwise, Why I Hate Saturn is the obvious D'oh! for me.


Now you're gonna tell me that Marvel Graphic Novel #1 is not a graphic novel?

I guess it's only 62 pages and we agreed upon 100.

Also, it somewhat fails the "standalone" test. Read in a vaccuum, there's a hell of a lot of odd looking people standing around. The reason why he should have a final confrontation with Thanos would be unclear. And it references heavily events such as the battle with Nitro which occurred elsewhere.

Fine.

How about the Metamorphosis Odyssey? Certainly makes a complete story by itself. Starlin draws. A... unique plan of questionable morality for defeating evil. Unexpected event or two like the destruction or earth and then the galaxy Overall a compelling, well-told read.

[jessecuster3]

Is there a place for Mouse Guard or is it too new?

[Paul McEnery]

Now you're gonna tell me that Marvel Graphic Novel #1 is not a graphic novel?

I guess it's only 62 pages and we agreed upon 100.

Hey, I'm being kind. You should have seen what Dave Sim had to say about it at the time.

Oh, and I think it's a great piece of work. But I think that the marketing is a piece of work, too.l


How about the Metamorphosis Odyssey? Certainly makes a complete story by itself. Starlin draws. A... unique plan of questionable morality for defeating evil. Unexpected event or two like the destruction or earth and then the galaxy Overall a compelling, well-told read.

Except, you know, it doesn't. He's scattershotting ideas all over the place. A companion "novel". The Dreadstar series. Basically, we've got a pretentious and wobbly short story that gains resonance because it's the prelude to something else.

[Nate C.]

I don't like Black Hole. I recognize the incredible brilliance of Burns's draftsmanship, and I can see that he's addressing some important themes... but the book just leaves me cold. The artwork is so perfect and flawless that it becomes mechanical; it looks like it could have been drawn by a computer, rather than a person who is capable of making mistakes. And all the characters were flat, boring and impossible to relate to; I even had trouble telling some of them apart.

thank you. I'm tired of feeling like I'm supposed to love this book, because, well, I'm a philistine if I don't.

It's like I told Ed (who did not make me feel that way. He makes me feel fine. And bubbly. like champagne.) one time. It's teenage angsty nihlism. I get it. But can't you do that in about a page of bad poetry?

[Chris Nowlin]

Except, you know, it doesn't. He's scattershotting ideas all over the place. A companion "novel". The Dreadstar series. Basically, we've got a pretentious and wobbly short story that gains resonance because it's the prelude to something else.

Really? I preferred it to everything that followed. It seemed quite complete when I read it and able to stand on its won.

Is it really pretentious? I have a distaste for prentention normally. I let Gaiman get away with it because I otherwise rather enjoy Sandman, but it normally irks me a bit.

[Sean Whitmore]

The thing about Death of Captain Marvel is that I don't know how complete it can be considered. Cap is dying of something that happened to him months earlier in his own series. His super hero friends are mostly brought in with little explanation of who they are and how they know him. I don't even think Rick Jones is explained well enough for a brand-new reader.


SEAN

[Kid Omega]

Really? I preferred it to everything that followed. It seemed quite complete when I read it and able to stand on its won.

Is it really pretentious? I have a distaste for prentention normally. I let Gaiman get away with it because I otherwise rather enjoy Sandman, but it normally irks me a bit.

What's pretentious about SANDMAN?

"pretentious" is a sticky and amorphous label that gets pitched around a lot. An accusation of pretension usually needs defending.

[Reptisaurus!]

What's pretentious about SANDMAN?

"pretentious" is a sticky and amorphous label that gets pitched around a lot. An accusation of pretension usually needs defending.

A-fucking-men!

(HUGE pet peeve of mine.)

[Sean Whitmore]

So does "pretentious" get added to the Big Book of Misused Terms like "hack", "mary sue", and "emo"?


SEAN

[Reptisaurus!]

Also fan-fiction. If you compare anything to Fanfiction you're performing the critical equivalent of strapping on big, red, floppy clown shoes and stuffing weasels down your pants.

[Ray R.]

Now you're gonna tell me that Marvel Graphic Novel #1 is not a graphic novel?

I guess it's only 62 pages and we agreed upon 100.

Also, it somewhat fails the "standalone" test. Read in a vaccuum, there's a hell of a lot of odd looking people standing around. The reason why he should have a final confrontation with Thanos would be unclear. And it references heavily events such as the battle with Nitro which occurred elsewhere.

Fine.


Those are rather arbitrary distinctions, no?

And I think The Death of Captain Marvel works as a stand-alone story. I had exposure to Warlock and Thanos through Starlin by the time I read this, but had little or no background on Captain Marvel. Almost none. I've never even read the Nitro comic in Cap Marvel's regular series and knew nothing about Rick Jones.

If we apply this test to Death of Captain Marvel, then The Dark Knight Returns suffers as well. To turn something on its head, you need to have an understanding of the canon that's being flipped in the first place. Without knowing Batman's canon, it doesn't work as dark satire or tragicomedy.

As for TinTin, as adventure epics, the trip to the moon was amazingly accurate considering that it predated the Apollo program by sometime. And it was two separate volumes of one story line. The Curse of the Blue Lotus, TinTin in Tibet, and quite a few other stories could be substituted.

This is MY list that I felt met the requirements of graphic novels, and that have been described at one time or another, in one form or another, AS "graphic novels." Call them novellas, collected compilations, etc., whatever. Safe Area Gorazde, by Joe Sacco, isn't even fiction. And you could argue that Maus isn't either, by extension. It's "fictionalized".

Otherwise, I stand by my selections. Tell me why my selections don't belong on merit, not why they technically don't belong on a list of "graphic novels".

[Chris Nowlin]

What's pretentious about SANDMAN?

"pretentious" is a sticky and amorphous label that gets pitched around a lot. An accusation of pretension usually needs defending.

Really, the point of my post was the opposite. I didn't see what was pretentious about Dreadstar. I used Sandman as comparison but don't feel too strongly about it.

So I'll withdraw the phrasing of my post and simply ask what is pretentious about Dreadstar?

Perhaps at a later time, I'll flip through Sandman again and we can discuss whether the term applies there.

[Kid Omega]

Really, the point of my post was the opposite. I didn't see what was pretentious about Dreadstar. I used Sandman as comparison but don't feel too strongly about it.

So I'll withdraw the phrasing of my post and simply ask what is pretentious about Dreadstar?


I agree that anyone describing DREADSTAR as "pretentious" has a lot of explaining to do.

Of course, this is the same Comm Board that accused me of being elitist when I said PEANUTS was better American fiction than Faulkner.

C'est la vie!

[Chris Nowlin]

Those are rather arbitrary distinctions, no?

And I think The Death of Captain Marvel works as a stand-alone story. I had exposure to Warlock and Thanos through Starlin by the time I read this, but had little or no background on Captain Marvel. Almost none. I've never even read the Nitro comic in Cap Marvel's regular series and knew nothing about Rick Jones.

If we apply this test to Death of Captain Marvel, then The Dark Knight Returns suffers as well. To turn something on its head, you need to have an understanding of the canon that's being flipped in the first place. Without knowing Batman's canon, it doesn't work as dark satire or tragicomedy.

As for TinTin, as adventure epics, the trip to the moon was amazingly accurate considering that it predated the Apollo program by sometime. And it was two separate volumes of one story line. The Curse of the Blue Lotus, TinTin in Tibet, and quite a few other stories could be substituted.

This is MY list that I felt met the requirements of graphic novels, and that have been described at one time or another, in one form or another, AS "graphic novels." Call them novellas, collected compilations, etc., whatever. Safe Area Gorazde, by Joe Sacco, isn't even fiction. And you could argue that Maus isn't either, by extension. It's "fictionalized".

Otherwise, I stand by my selections. Tell me why my selections don't belong on merit, not why they technically don't belong on a list of "graphic novels".

Well, blast Ray, if we're talking merit I think Death of Captain Marvel is as good as good gets.

Compares interestingly to Signal to Noise. Men preparing for death, seeking to die as they lived, if only in their mind. Whether it's one last battle with Thanos that doesn't "actually" happen, or finishing a film in his head that nobody will see.

Question about Signal to Noise then, putting length issues aside for the moment. Did you feel the "extra" stuff, random words filling the page about noise etc. added to the experience of the book for you?

[Kid Omega]

Those are rather arbitrary distinctions, no?

And I think The Death of Captain Marvel works as a stand-alone story. I had exposure to Warlock and Thanos through Starlin by the time I read this, but had little or no background on Captain Marvel. Almost none. I've never even read the Nitro comic in Cap Marvel's regular series and knew nothing about Rick Jones.

If we apply this test to Death of Captain Marvel, then The Dark Knight Returns suffers as well. To turn something on its head, you need to have an understanding of the canon that's being flipped in the first place. Without knowing Batman's canon, it doesn't work as dark satire or tragicomedy.

As for TinTin, as adventure epics, the trip to the moon was amazingly accurate considering that it predated the Apollo program by sometime. And it was two separate volumes of one story line. The Curse of the Blue Lotus, TinTin in Tibet, and quite a few other stories could be substituted.

This is MY list that I felt met the requirements of graphic novels, and that have been described at one time or another, in one form or another, AS "graphic novels." Call them novellas, collected compilations, etc., whatever. Safe Area Gorazde, by Joe Sacco, isn't even fiction. And you could argue that Maus isn't either, by extension. It's "fictionalized".

Otherwise, I stand by my selections. Tell me why my selections don't belong on merit, not why they technically don't belong on a list of "graphic novels".

This is why my list was "Greatest Comics" as opposed to "Graphic Novels" or "strips" or "comic series" or whatever.

You lose sight of the message when you're constantly defining the medium.

I still stand by me defense of the one panel gags of Charles Addams, and the other suggestion for Willy and Joe.

[i_mmmchocolate]

A quickie post, I'm late to chime in:

I agree with those who included Persepolis, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and The Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck.

I'd also throw in Deogratias Tale Of Rwanda by Stassen and Box Office Poison by Robinson.

[Chris Nowlin]

A quickie post, I'm late to chime in:

I agree with those who included Persepolis, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and The Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck.

I'd also throw in Deogratias Tale Of Rwanda by Stassen and Box Office Poison by Robinson.

Care to explain Deogratias? I rather liked it, and I learned more details about what happened in Rwanda than I was previously aware. The whole situation is mind-blowing. Both that those responsible could do such a thing and that the rest of the world could fail so miserably at stopping it.

[i_mmmchocolate]

I chose it because it's a thought-provoking, powerful, tragic story about a part of the world that is rarely written about-- at least I haven't read too many graphic novels based in Africa (Aya by Abouet comes to mind, but the storyline is significantly different from Deogratias). Correct me if I'm wrong. I consider it in the same league as Maus and Persepolis.

[Paul McEnery]

I agree that anyone describing DREADSTAR as "pretentious" has a lot of explaining to do.

Of course, this is the same Comm Board that accused me of being elitist when I said PEANUTS was better American fiction than Faulkner.

C'est la vie!

Message slip.

Metamorphosis Odyssey is the title in debate for pretension.

Now why we even have to go further than the title is a stumper for me.

[stealthwise]

I would have to include Transmetropolitan, although ironically, its the more picaresque volumes that seem to be represent the best of that series, which sort of defeats the purpose of the "graphic novel" label.

I'd like to see another thread started that focuses perhaps on "best by" year or genre, to further narrow things down, because the best comics of all time thread is pretty stagnant, mostly because the list seems so static.

[Kid Omega]

I would have to include Transmetropolitan, although ironically, its the more picaresque volumes that seem to be represent the best of that series, which sort of defeats the purpose of the "graphic novel" label.

I'd like to see another thread started that focuses perhaps on "best by" year or genre, to further narrow things down, because the best comics of all time thread is pretty stagnant, mostly because the list seems so static.

People are free to suggest comics to add or remove at any time. The last burst of conversation was so stupid it was deleted.

I think the rule that you can't argue against something you haven't read stymied folks, but I stand by it....

[stealthwise]

People are free to suggest comics to add or remove at any time. The last burst of conversation was so stupid it was deleted.

I think the rule that you can't argue against something you haven't read stymied folks, but I stand by it....

That rule definitely makes sense, but... it's really hard to read EVERYTHING, or even a solid portion, of a lot of those works that span 30-50 years worth of comics, like Peanuts or Thimble Theater or Krazy Kat.

I mean, I've read some Krazy Kat, but nowhere near enough to be comfortable suggesting it get replaced by something like Transmet.

[Chris Nowlin]

Thanks for bringing this back, I missed this.

My top 25 GNs, in order of preference:

1.) The Death of Captain Marvel, Starlin
2.) A Contract with God, Eisner
3.) Complete Bone Adventures, Smith
4.) Life & Times of Scrooge McDuck, Rosa
5.) The Dragonbellow Conspiracy (Usagi Yojimbo), Sakai
6.) Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Boy in the World, Ware
7.) Maus, Spiegelman
8.) Golem's Mighty Swing, Sturm
9.) Last Day in Vietnam, Eisner
10.) Lone Wolf & Cub, Koike/Kojima
11.) Why I Hate Saturn, Baker
12.) Understanding Comics, McCloud
13.) Boulevard of Broken Dreams, K. Deitch
14.) From Hell, Moore/Campbell
15.) Destination Moon/Explorers on the Moon (TinTin), Herge
16.) Watchmen, Moore/Gibbons
17.) Safe Area Gorazde, Sacco
18.) The Adventures of Luther Arkwright, Talbot
19.) Silver Surfer, Lee/Kirby
20.) Signal to Noise, Gaiman/McKean
21.) Adolph, Tezuka
22.) Sally Forth, Wood
23.) Fairy Tales of Oscar Wilde, P. Craig Russell
24.) The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, Ploog
25.) Persepolis, Satrapi

BTW, Ray, based on faith in you and my love of most of the books on your list (well, with one exception that the entire world but me loves) I have read, the rest are added to my list of trades-to-get-soon.

[Paul McEnery]

People are free to suggest comics to add or remove at any time. The last burst of conversation was so stupid it was deleted.

I think the rule that you can't argue against something you haven't read stymied folks, but I stand by it....

Fair point in general. Except for books you can't stand so much that you throw them across the room in disgust every time you try.

I mean, I don't need to read Danielle Steele or Jeffrey Archer to know how bad they are, and most books you can be done with by the first paragraph.

With comics, bad art just leaps out at you. And so does bad dialogue. The book still might have redeeming qualities, but you know at that point that it's not a Top 25 book.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, and here's a vote against David Boring as Top 25 even though it's good, because in retrospect I find it too provincial (in the sense of playing to a very specific audience).

And here's the review I wrote about it when it first came out, which surprised me by being so positive. I must have been wearing my objective spectacles that day (I gave it 8/10 -- again, I reckon a Top 25 book ought to be 10/10, because there's plenty of 10/10s out there):

There are three faces of Dan. Face One: Weird experimentalist and master of the avant-garde one-liner. Face Two: Moany Gen-X coffee shop geek. Face Three: Intelligible and rather good storyteller. Open the box of David Boring and which Dan do you get? A little bit of all three.

For one thing, the title character really is Boring by nature. He’s one of those comic book dweebs who just can’t get it together – and yes, he’s a cartoonist, obsessed by his absent father who was a comic book professional; yes, his (few) friends are all losers who spend their time in coffee shops talking about the great art they’re going to get around to making one of these days; yes, his sex life is a string of disappointments, all too quickly over, and somehow he can’t find true love in this bleak and bitter world.

But the nice thing about David Boring (the book) is that this character, all too typical of Fantagraphics shoe-gazing product, is trapped in a hell of his own making. All around him, interesting things are happening. His best friend gets murdered. His girl friend joins a sex cult. There are biological terrorists holding Canada to ransom and maybe bringing an end to the world. Somehow, in the middle of the book, he even gets shot in the head and winds up recuperating on an island while all about him people go mad and die, in a plot that reads like Agatha Christie’s Ten Little Indians as directed by Bergman.

Of course, good little David stays true to his essence and never really participates in all the action. He’s just too… well, boring. As T.S. Eliot warned us long ago, the end of the world comes not with a bang but a whimper. It’s a wake-up call to a doom-brained generation, a stealth bomber against slackdom, and inoculation against navel-gazing. And it’s all done in a way that’s so completely off that you never ever want to be inside Boring’s head ever again. Well, until you read it over to find out how Clowes tricked you so thoroughly in the first place.

What’s really worth noticing here is Clowes’s innovative use of technique. The panels on the page march on like a linear narrative, but they’re not, not at all. Just like Boring’s dissipated life, all the action happens in the margins between the pictures. It’s grim, sad, flat, and one-dimensional until you catch on to what’s going on – then it’s as funny as all get out.

As always, Clowes is drawing in a black and white ultra-realism that looks like it was carved in blocks of linoleum and printed, a style that perfectly evokes the claustrophobia of the 50s teen movie just imperceptibly maturing into full-blown noir. Boring’s only moments of imagination pop up in the shape of panel’s from his father’s flash-and-trash superhero comics, and the burst of pixellated color remind you of the way comic books can make your life worth living. As long as you don’t get trapped by them in a perpetual adolescence. Fan-boys take heed!