Reverend Jerry Falwell is dead

[Sean Walsh]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18679412/?GT1=9155

Moral Majority leader Falwell dies
Evangelical leader was found in his university office
BREAKING NEWS
MSNBC staff and news service reports

LYNCHBURG, Va. - The Rev. Jerry Falwell — founder of the Moral Majority and the face of the religious right in the 1980s — died Tuesday after being found unconscious in his office, a Liberty University executive said.

Ron Godwin, Liberty's executive vice president, said Falwell, 73, had been found unresponsive around 10:45 a.m. and was taken to Lynchburg General Hospital.

Godwin said he was not sure what caused the collapse, but noted that Falwell had “a history of heart challenges.”

“I had breakfast with him, and he was fine at breakfast,” Godwin said. “He went to his office, I went to mine and they found him unresponsive.”

Falwell, a television evangelist who founded the Moral Majority in 1979, became the face of the religious right in the 1980s. He later founded the conservative Liberty University and served as its chancellor.

In the 1980s, Falwell saw his political lobbying organization grow to 6.5 million members, raising millions of dollars for conservative politicians and helping to elect Ronald Reagan president.

A biography of Falwell on Liberty University's Web site states that "with the impetus of the newly organized Moral Majority, millions of people of faith voted for the first time in 1980 and helped elect Ronald Reagan and many conservative congressmen and senators."

Falwell survived two serious health scares in early 2005. He was hospitalized in February for two weeks with what was described as a viral infection, then hospitalized again in March with congestive heart failure after being found unconscious. At that time he had to be resuscitated by EMTs at the hospital emergency room.

A native of Lynchburg, Falwell and his wife, Macel, have three children and eight grandchildren.

His Jerry Falwell ministries take in about $200 million a year in revenues, according to Liberty University's Web site.

Liberty University's commencement is scheduled for Saturday, with former U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich as the featured speaker.

[Jack Zodiac]

Not that I'm particularly saddened by his passing (not a bit, actually), but that's still a shame.

[Michael P]

Okay, I'll say just one thing:

Can we at all get the word "Reverend" taken out of the thread title? 'Cause if there was any man on Earth who didn't deserve that title, it's Jerry.

[Matt Algren]

Can we, you know, not celebrate someone's death? Pretty please?

(Crossposted from Rita's.)

[parrish]

I grew up here in Lynchburg (even went to his school), so I imagine there will be a lot of celebrating and mourning.

[Mike Smash!]

I really can't think of anything nice to say about the man, so I'll remain silent.

[hoffmandu]

In the immortal words of The Joker- "You were a ruthless bastard, Falwell, and I'm glad yer dead"

[Drew Van T.]

As the saying goes, if you have nothing nice to say, then...


....

I got nothing.

[Typo Lad]

Okay, totally off topic but... there's a town called Lynchburg? Damn.

[BlairH]

Rest in peace Reverend.

[parrish]

Okay, totally off topic but... there's a town called Lynchburg? Damn.

I didn't get it either, turns out the founder was a guy named John Lynch.

[Xero Kaiser]

I have absolutely no idea who this guy is

[Kevinroc]

I wasn't a fan by any means but I'm never happy to hear when someone dies.

[Spike-X]

Okay, totally off topic but... there's a town called Lynchburg? Damn.
It's where Jadie lives!

[Tom]

I'm never happy to hear when someone dies either.

Except this time.

[Mike Smash!]

I'm never happy to hear when someone dies either.

Except this time.You know, many times I'd find this post disrespectful and harsh, but fuck it. It's Jerry Falwell.

[Typo Lad]

I didn't get it either, turns out the founder was a guy named John Lynch.

Whew. For a while there, I thought they were maybe bragging.

[Paul McEnery]

Okay, totally off topic but... there's a town called Lynchburg? Damn.

Rudy Rucker used to live there, and he's set some of his novels there, under the name Killville.

[Agent Helix]

Fuck decorum.

Good fucking riddance.

[Tom]

You know, many times I'd find this post disrespectful and harsh, but fuck it. It's Jerry Falwell.

That's exactly how I feel. I literally shouted out "Oh, thank GOD*" when I read the news. Then I debated whether I should post what I did and figured, fuck it. This is my honest reaction. It's not like I was wishing for his death, but yes, I really am happy to hear he's dead.

*Yes, I'm aware of the irony.

[Royal]

.......

Who?

[Gordon Smith]

I strive mightily to find reasons not to speak ill of the recently-departed, but the best I can come up with is this: I won't celebrate his passing, but I'm sure as hell not gonna mourn the dude either.

[Jack Zodiac]

That's exactly how I feel. I literally shouted out "Oh, thank GOD*" when I read the news. Then I debated whether I should post what I did and figured, fuck it. This is my honest reaction. It's not like I was wishing for his death, but yes, I really am happy to hear he's dead.

*Yes, I'm aware of the irony.

With a little more class, I'd say: "The world's no better with or without him."

With a little more crass, I'd say: "Maybe we'll get lucky Pat Robertson'll follow his lead."

[Merey]

"Ding, dong, the witch is dead..."

[Shellhead]

I'm an atheist. But if there is a Hell, hopefully I will see Falwell there.

For laughs, I "joined" the Moral Majority when I was in high school, just so I could get their newsletter and mock it with my atheist friends. To us, it was almost as funny as The Onion. But they kept hitting me up with requests for donations.

Finally, their desperate plea for help in stopping the evil Equal Rights Amendment got my attention. I sent the Moral Majority a $100 donation in Monopoly money. Fortunately, they didn't take legal action, they simply dropped me from their mailing list. As a minor, I could have probably gotten away with that anyway.

[Daniel Lewis]

*breathes deeply*

Mmm. I love the smell of "tolerance" in the morning.

[Cosmic Average]

Good riddance to human trash.

[Tom]

Mmmm. I love it when people have no clue what "tolerance" means.

[Wesley Dodds]

Oh, come on. It's not like Pat Robertson died.

...

[Cosmic Average]

Mmmm. I love it when people have no clue what "tolerance" means.

Apparently it means that you can't say anything bad about people's efforts to restrict the rights of others or say anything about their intolerance and bigotry.

[Quarterwolf]

Okay, I'll say just one thing:

Can we at all get the word "Reverend" taken out of the thread title? 'Cause if there was any man on Earth who didn't deserve that title, it's Jerry.
I give you Al Sharpton and Fred Phelps to add to that list.

But yeah I cannot say I am sad in the lest to see him gone. He calls himself a moral person but I find him to be little more then a liar and a pig in sheeps clothing.

I will not mourn yet another person who claims to be following the bible yet lives his life in the EXACT opposite way then what it teaches.

Good riddance to bad rubbish.

[Naldo]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

[Justin Davis]

I'm never happy to hear when someone dies either.

Except this time.

Same here. Ok, I'm sure he has family members and friends who love him and will miss him. I am not one of those.

With a little more class, I'd say: "The world's no better with or without him."

With a little more crass, I'd say: "Maybe we'll get lucky Pat Robertson'll follow his lead."

Funny thing is, I had those exact two reactions. Actually, I felt a little ashamed when I saw the headline on CNN.com because my immediate, instinctive response was to smile and excitedly say, "Really?" with glee in my voice. My next thought was, "Oh, wow, I was way too glad to read that."

I have a similar reaction to this that I did to Saddam Hussein's death. The world is better off without him.

[Tom]

I have a similar reaction to this that I did to Saddam Hussein's death. The world is better off without him.

Thank you for making that comparison. Oddly, no one was wagging any fingers around here when there was a 200-post thread celebrating Saddam's death.

[Naldo]

Thank you for making that comparison. Oddly, no one was wagging any fingers around here when there was a 200-post thread celebrating Saddam's death.
Yeah because Saddam Hussein & Jerry Falwell are nearly indistinguishable in their deeds!

[Chris Nowlin]

Thank you for making that comparison. Oddly, no one was wagging any fingers around here when there was a 200-post thread celebrating Saddam's death.

I'm not sure there's enough finger-wagging here to call it odd, statistically. Perhaps the one person here who's commented didn't notice the Hussein thread.

[Tom]

Yeah because Saddam Hussein & Jerry Falwell are nearly indistinguishable in their deeds!

Why, it's like clockwork. I could practically write out the entire rest of this thread. Everyone? Take five.

Naldo? Try harder. I made no such comparison.

[Boldido]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.
He is a man who hurt people...again and again.

I see nothing wrong with people being satisfied to see that person stop...whether by enlightenment or death.

[Justin Davis]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

Are you sure you're thinking of Reverend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falwell#Controversial_remarks) Jerry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falwell#Falwell_and_apartheid) Falwell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falwell#Legal_issues)?

[Chris Nowlin]

Yeah because Saddam Hussein & Jerry Falwell are nearly indistinguishable in their deeds!

There are levels, of course. But at some point, evil is evil.

Hussein did worse things, but Falwell did evil in the guise of being religious, and thus I find him personally upsetting.

The comparison is: they're both men the world is better off without.

[Quarterwolf]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

Nope. Speaks of my ability to look at someone and see his faults that he was so happy to point out in everyone else.

I think you forgot when he got busted for Drugs. So Scandal.

[Justin Davis]

Thank you for making that comparison. Oddly, no one was wagging any fingers around here when there was a 200-post thread celebrating Saddam's death.

It was the first thing that came to mind when trying to think of a comparable feeling. Seems like an obvious, natural one too.

[Naldo]

Why, it's like clockwork. I could practically write out the entire rest of this thread. Everyone? Take five.

Naldo? Try harder. I made no such comparison.

Sure Tom, then why bring it up? Exactly why I mean?

[Naldo]

Nope. Speaks of my ability to look at someone and see his faults that he was so happy to point out in everyone else.

I think you forgot when he got busted for Drugs. So Scandal.

Detail please?

[Chris Nowlin]

Sure Tom, then why bring it up? Exactly why I mean?

Well, Justin brought it up.

The point was, there was another recent thread about an evil man's death, so there's precedent for people not being respectful toward the dead

[Naldo]

The really fucked up thing about this thread is it looks like i'm defending the guy, what a weird day.

[Cosmic Average]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

From the Monday, Sep. 02, 1985 issue of Time:

His mission: to offer optimistic words of moral assurance about South Africa's embattled white regime, whose leaders he had just met during a whirlwind five-day visit. He urged the good Christian folk of America to buy up gold Krugerrands and push U.S. "reinvestment" in South Africa.

Time (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959697,00.html)

He supported apartheid.

Just because he wasn't caught nailing his secretary doesn't mean that he wasn't a horrible person.

[Tom]

Sure Tom, then why bring it up? Exactly why I mean?

Because no one claimed that we shouldn't speak ill of the dead when there were 200 posts celebrating his death and DEFINITELY no one made a statement that "The nasty comments speak more about those making them than Hussein."

Because when evil men die, people naturally are happy to hear it.

Also, you might want to ask Justin that question. He brought it up.

That you apparently don't think he was evil does not mean that those of us who DO think he was evil should temper our comments.

[Paul McEnery]

Sure Tom, then why bring it up? Exactly why I mean?

Because Falwell was a vicious bigoted evil bastard, and the only reason to regret his death is that it didn't come 40 years sooner.

They should build a special cemetary for people like Falwell, Hussein, Pinochet, etc.

In a public toilet.

[Naldo]

From the Monday, Sep. 02, 1985 issue of Time:



Time (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,959697,00.html)

He supported apartheid.

Just because he wasn't caught nailing his secretary doesn't mean that he wasn't a horrible person.

I had totally forgotten the krugerand thing, so thanks for reminding me about that. Good point and you're absolutely right. Awful, but still not a scandal.

And I suppose I'm thinking about the evangelist scandals that seem to be so prevalent. Hence my initial line "in his business". Haggard and Crouch and all the rest etc...

I still think bringing up the non-finger waving in the Saddam death thread in here is ludicrous.

[Matt Algren]

Thank you for making that comparison. Oddly, no one was wagging any fingers around here when there was a 200-post thread celebrating Saddam's death.Here I go with a not-fer-nothing post, but I just perused the thread you're talking about and it very quickly moved from a couple 'good riddance' posts to a bit of a back-and-forth about the death penalty, then 'I hate Bush', then pictures of boobies from 10-Eyed-Man, then a couple 'good riddance' posts, and finally ended with posts about how many people are killed in Iraq every day, and isn't war terrible*. There wasn't a whole lot finger-waggable about it. Not that that's what I'm doing, of course, but still.

Oh, and it all happened over New Year's holidays, so my guess is that a lot of people weren't paying attention, what with being hung over and all.





*The answer is yes.

[Naldo]

Because no one claimed that we shouldn't speak ill of the dead when there were 200 posts celebrating his death and DEFINITELY no one made a statement that "The nasty comments speak more about those making them than Hussein."

Because when evil men die, people naturally are happy to hear it.

Also, you might want to ask Justin that question. He brought it up.

That you apparently don't think he was evil does not mean that those of us who DO think he was evil should temper our comments.

True, but it does mean that you may want to recheck your dictionary for the definition of evil.

[Paul McEnery]

The really fucked up thing about this thread is it looks like i'm defending the guy, what a weird day.

It looks to me more like you can't resist taking the opportunity to stick it to liberals.

[Tom]

True, but it does mean that you may want to recheck your dictionary for the definition of evil.

And you might want to do a little research (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10806.html) before you defend the man:

March 1980: Falwell tells an Anchorage rally about a conversation with President Carter at the White House. Commenting on a January breakfast meeting, Falwell claimed to have asked Carter why he had “practicing homosexuals” on the senior staff at the White House. According to Falwell, Carter replied, “Well, I am president of all the American people, and I believe I should represent everyone.” When others who attended the White House event insisted that the exchange never happened, Falwell responded that his account “was not intended to be a verbatim report,” but rather an “honest portrayal” of Carter’s position.

August 1980: After Southern Baptist Convention President Bailey Smith tells a Dallas Religious Right gathering that “God Almighty does not hear the prayer of a Jew,” Falwell gives a similar view. “I do not believe,” he told reporters, “that God answers the prayer of any unredeemed Gentile or Jew.” After a meeting with an American Jewish Committee rabbi, he changed course, telling an interviewer on NBC’s “Meet the Press” that “God hears the prayers of all persons…. God hears everything.”

July 1984: Falwell is forced to pay gay activist Jerry Sloan $5,000 after losing a court battle. During a TV debate in Sacramento, Falwell denied calling the gay-oriented Metropolitan Community Churches “brute beasts” and “a vile and Satanic system” that will “one day be utterly annihilated and there will be a celebration in heaven.” When Sloan insisted he had a tape, Falwell promised $5,000 if he could produce it. Sloan did so, Falwell refused to pay and Sloan successfully sued. Falwell appealed, with his attorney charging that the Jewish judge in the case was prejudiced. He lost again and was forced to pay an additional $2,875 in sanctions and court fees.

October 1987: The Federal Election Commission fines Falwell for transferring $6.7 million in funds intended for his ministry to political committees.

February 1988: The U.S. Supreme Court strikes down a $200,000 jury award to Falwell for “emotional distress” he suffered because of a Hustler magazine parody. Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, usually a Falwell favorite, wrote the unanimous opinion in Hustler v. Falwell, ruling that the First Amendment protects free speech.

February 1993: The Internal Revenue Service determines that funds from Falwell’s Old Time Gospel Hour program were illegally funneled to a political action committee. The IRS forced Falwell to pay $50,000 and retroactively revoked the Old Time Gospel Hour’s tax-exempt status for 1986-87.

March 1993: Despite his promise to Jewish groups to stop referring to America as a “Christian nation,” Falwell gives a sermon saying, “We must never allow our children to forget that this is a Christian nation. We must take back what is rightfully ours.”

1994-1995: Falwell is criticized for using his “Old Time Gospel Hour” to hawk a scurrilous video called “The Clinton Chronicles” that makes a number of unsubstantiated charges against President Bill Clinton — among them that he is a drug addict and that he arranged the murders of political enemies in Arkansas. Despite claims he had no ties to the project, evidence surfaced that Falwell helped bankroll the venture with $200,000 paid to a group called Citizens for Honest Government (CHG). CHG’s Pat Matrisciana later admitted that Falwell and he staged an infomercial interview promoting the video in which a silhouetted reporter said his life was in danger for investigating Clinton. (Matrisciana himself posed as the reporter.) “That was Jerry’s idea to do that,” Matrisciana recalled. “He thought that would be dramatic.”

November 1997: Falwell accepts $3.5 million from a front group representing controversial Korean evangelist Sun Myung Moon to ease Liberty University’s financial woes.

April 1998: Confronted on national television with a controversial quote from America Can Be Saved!, a published collection of his sermons, Falwell denies having written the book or had anything to do with it. In the 1979 work, Falwell wrote, “I hope to live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!” Despite Falwell’s denial, Sword of the Lord Publishing, which produced the book, confirms that Falwell wrote it.

January 1999: Falwell tells a pastors’ conference in Kingsport, Tenn., that the Antichrist prophesied in the Bible is alive today and “of course he’ll be Jewish.”

February 1999: Falwell becomes the object of nationwide ridicule after his National Liberty Journal newspaper issues a “parents alert” warning that Tinky Winky, a character on the popular PBS children’s show “Teletubbies,” might be gay.

September 2001: Falwell blames Americans for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. “The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the Pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say, ‘You helped this happen.’”

November 2005: Falwell spearheads campaign to resist “war on Christmas.”

February 2007: Falwell describes global warming as a conspiracy orchestrated by Satan, liberals, and The Weather Channel.

[Naldo]

It looks to me more like you can't resist taking the opportunity to stick it to liberals.

Hey Paul, you may want to see someone about that rather serious case of paranoia you carry around.

Just a friendly suggestion. :)

[Naldo]

And you might want to do a little research (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10806.html) before you defend the man:


Uh Tom, I wasn't defending him. Saying a persons deeds are not as egregious as Saddam Husseins, isn't defending him. Sorry you wasted a cut & paste.

[parrish]

I think you forgot when he got busted for Drugs. So Scandal.

When was this?

[Chris Nowlin]

True, but it does mean that you may want to recheck your dictionary for the definition of evil.

Dictionary.com:
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked

Yup

2. harmful; injurious

Yup

3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous

That one's not really about people, but it's close enough

4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character

Yup

5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.

Not sure. Maybe not.


6. that which is evil; evil quality, intention, or conduct

That's a bloody useful definition

7. the force in nature that governs and gives rise to wickedness and sin.

Now we're getting to nouns I guess. I'll stop
It looks to me more like you can't resist taking the opportunity to stick it to liberals.

Hey, happy moderate here.

[Agent Helix]

Just because yes, Saddam was a worse person than Falwell, it doesn't make Falwell ANY LESS A TERRIBLE PERSON.

[Sir Tim Drake]

Fuck decorum.

Good fucking riddance.

You know what, I agree. Falwell was a horrible man and I'm thrilled to hear that the world is no longer troubled by his presence. I hope he gets exactly the afterlife reward he deserves.

[Spackling Compound]

Uh Tom, I wasn't defending him. Saying a persons deeds are not as egregious as Saddam Husseins, isn't defending him. Sorry you wasted a cut & paste.

Sadam actually ordered and participated in the genoicide of thousands of people.
Falwell didn't kill anyone.

That's a major difference in the evil these men did.

If his bigotry is paramount to murder then I suppose we all kill every once in a while.

[Rob on the Job]

The NY Times did a helluva obit on Falwell.

Amazingly unbiased ... for a change.

link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/obituaries/15cnd-falwell.html?ex=1336881600&en=475295bc07f015f1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

[Tom]

Uh Tom, I wasn't defending him. Saying a persons deeds are not as egregious as Saddam Husseins, isn't defending him. Sorry you wasted a cut & paste.

Oh please. You were the one who said it looked like you were defending him and you were the one who told me I needed to look up the definition of the word "evil." All the snarky comebacks in the world aren't going to change that.

And let me remind you once again that NO ONE in this thread made the claim that his deeds were as bad as Hussein's.

[Naldo]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.

Being a bigger person, the ability to rise above a situation seems to be beyond the capabilities of some of you.

[Rob on the Job]

Because Falwell was a vicious bigoted evil bastard, and the only reason to regret his death is that it didn't come 40 years sooner.

They should build a special cemetary for people like Falwell, Hussein, Pinochet, etc.

In a public toilet.

I think this post says more about you, Paul, than it does about Falwell.

[Copper]

Well this got a "holy shit" moment from me. I will admit I never liked his smug sanctimonious attitude, or the mind numbingly stupid things that came out of his mouth. Like it or not, lots of people will mourn his passing. The sad thing is, his Moral Majority movement seems so deeply entrenched in some religious folk that I don't think it'll be long before some other charlatan takes his place.

[Chris Nowlin]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.

Being a bigger person, the ability to rise above a situation seems to be beyond the capabilities of some of you.

I'm not sure we're just as small-minded.

Small-minded to me refers to things like judging an entire group of people by the actions of a few, or insisting everybody else view the world through your philosophy.

To look at one man's words and deeds and objectively determine that those are the words and deeds of an evil man... I don't see the small-mindedness.

But maybe I don't see it because I'm too small-minded. Enlighten me.

[Naldo]

And let me remind you once again that NO ONE in this thread made the claim that his deeds were as bad as Hussein's.

If this is indeed the case then you have my apology and consider yourself unsnarked.

[Boldido]

Uh Tom, I wasn't defending him. Saying a persons deeds are not as egregious as Saddam Husseins, isn't defending him. Sorry you wasted a cut & paste.Nobody said he was as bad as Hussein. What Justin said, if you go back and read his post, is that he had the same feeling upon hearing of Falwell's death that he did upon hearing of Hussein's death. That is nowhere near the same as saying they did equally bad things, it just described the very subjective feelings of Jusitn.

Those are his feelings, just as your feelings are that people who are revelling in his death are being crass and how I am feeling that your posts are self-important and condescending.

[Tom]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.

Being a bigger person, the ability to rise above a situation seems to be beyond the capabilities of some of you.

If calling a man evil for supporting and defending apartheid, for claiming that AIDS was God's punishment against gays, for claiming that God doesn't listen to Jews and that the anti-Christ is a Jew, for blaming the 3000 deaths on 9/11 to pagans, feminists and gays makes me small-minded in your eyes, well, that just says more about you than me, doesn't it?

[Steven Faulkner]

Can't say I am sorry to see the bigot go.

To be honest, I think I need to throw a party cause this is good news.

[Naldo]

Nobody said he was as bad as Hussein. What Justin said, if you go back and read his post, is that he had the same feeling upon hearing of Falwell's death that he did upon hearing of Hussein's death. That is nowhere near the same as saying they did equally bad things, it just described the very subjective feelings of Jusitn.

Those are his feelings, just as your feelings are that people who are revelling in his death are being crass and how I am feeling that your posts are self-important and condescending.

I wasn't referring to Justin's post with my comment, I was referring to Tom's post regarding the 200 pg Saddam post.

[Chris Nowlin]

I think this post says more about you, Paul, than it does about Falwell.

Given that it says little about Falwell and is all about Paul revealing his attitude towards the man, I think your statement is factually correct as stated.

However, I'm detecting and undercurrent that is negative toward Paul...

[Darth Joker]

His politics were far too authoritarian, and busy-body, but there was at least one unique aspect to Falwell that was genuinely commendable... he seemed genuine to me. It is true that he was not touched with any obvious hypocritical scandal (going by his understanding of his faith, it's important to state), unlike the vast majority of his peers in the Christian televangelist community.

A lot of televangelists strike me as frauds... I wonder if they're even Christians, and if perhaps they're in it strictly for the money, and fame. That didn't seem to be the case with Falwell based on a documentary of him that I once watched (as well as a documentary on Larry Flynt that I watched) - he was often a dangerous, and implusive, extremist, but I don't doubt for a second that he genuinely believed everything that he said, and that his faith - unbeliveably authoritarian though it may be - was genuine.

Also, Falwell didn't exist with out extremist opposition... if he did, he'd be an utter menace. In some ways, I sometimes think that he cancelled out with the more extremist elements on the left - that each prevented the other from getting too powerful.

It would be interesting to see if there's been any response to this from Ann Coulter, or Bill Maher yet. Bill hated Falwell's politics, but he had him on his Politically Incorrect show at least once, and he seemed to think that "Jerry" (Bill noticably called him by his first name) was a "nice guy"... aside from his politics, of course. ;)

[Naldo]

If calling a man evil for supporting and defending apartheid, for claiming that AIDS was God's punishment against gays, for claiming that God doesn't listen to Jews and that the anti-Christ is a Jew, for blaming the 3000 deaths on 9/11 to pagans, feminists and gays makes me small-minded in your eyes, well, that just says more about you than me, doesn't it?

I had forgotten about the Krugerand issue, which I admitted now a page or two back. I said in my very FIRST post that he lived with his foot in his mouth. As far as the anti-christ being a jew, well it would follow that since the christ was a jew, the anti-christ would be a jew so this point is just inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory. Again, I said he lived with his foot in his mouth, I'm not saying he was a kind, gentle or even a good guy.

However I STILL say:

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.

[Chris Nowlin]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.


And I asked you to explain what was meant by that, as nobody here appears small-minded

[Tom]

I will happily live with your version of "small-mindedness," Naldo.

[BlairH]

Yeah because Saddam Hussein & Jerry Falwell are nearly indistinguishable in their deeds!

But didn't Falwell gas his entire family and workmates a few years back?

Oh wait, that was Ben Linus...

[Slam_Bradley]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.



You keep saying that word. But I don't think you know what that word means.

[Cosmic Average]

...I don't doubt for a second that he genuinely believed everything that he said, and that his faith - unbelievably authoritarian though it may be - was genuine.

Do you consider that to be a good thing? Personally, I feel that it's another point against the man.

[Chris Nowlin]

You keep saying that word. But I don't think you know what that word means.

Close, Slam. You meant:

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Boldido]

You keep saying that word. But I don't think you know what that word means.

Inconceivable!!!!

[Paul McEnery]

I had forgotten about the Krugerand issue, which I admitted now a page or two back. I said in my very FIRST post that he lived with his foot in his mouth. As far as the anti-christ being a jew, well it would follow that since the christ was a jew, the anti-christ would be a jew so this point is just inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory. Again, I said he lived with his foot in his mouth, I'm not saying he was a kind, gentle or even a good guy.

However I STILL say:

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.


Falwell hated women, blacks, Jews, and even Christians who disagreed with him. He spent millions and millions of dollars doing them actual harm.

But of course, hating that behaviour is being small-minded. Of course it is! How could I have missed that?

You've said nothing here about your own attitudes, or about Falwell himself. All you've done is stick it to people for hating bigotry.

And that's just being a troll.

[Loren]

I'm looking for something positive to say about Falwell, and the best thing I've gotten so far is this:

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5333/jfalwellcn8.jpg

This 1987 photo of Falwell in a waterslide was selected by the National Press Photographers Association as one of that year's "Best in Photojournalism," and the AP named it among the top 100 national photos of the 20th century.

[Naldo]

I will happily live with your version of "small-mindedness," Naldo.

I think its because I am reminded of that thread a while back where someone asked what they would do if they had 1 day either to live or before the earth blows up, or perhaps it was 1 week or something like that. An astonishing amount of people replied that they would rob banks and fuck whoever they could and all sorts of really bad shit. I naively replied that I would spend my time fishing the eastern Sierras.

[Naldo]

Falwell hated women, blacks, Jews, and even Christians who disagreed with him. He spent millions and millions of dollars doing them actual harm.

But of course, hating that behaviour is being small-minded. Of course it is! How could I have missed that?

You've said nothing here about your own attitudes, or about Falwell himself. All you've done is stick it to people for hating bigotry.

And that's just being a troll.

You forgot how I pointed out your paranoia.

[Chris Nowlin]

Falwell hated women, blacks, Jews, and even Christians who disagreed with him. He spent millions and millions of dollars doing them actual harm.

But of course, hating that behaviour is being small-minded. Of course it is! How could I have missed that?

You've said nothing here about your own attitudes, or about Falwell himself. All you've done is stick it to people for hating bigotry.

And that's just being a troll.

Isn't it a bit hyprocritical to attack people who hate an entire group of people when you clearly hate all racists?

[Paul McEnery]

The NY Times did a helluva obit on Falwell.

Amazingly unbiased ... for a change.

link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/obituaries/15cnd-falwell.html?ex=1336881600&en=475295bc07f015f1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

If by unbiased you mean a gutless piece of whitewashing, yes.

[Paul McEnery]

Isn't it a bit hyprocritical to attack people who hate an entire group of people when you clearly hate all racists?

Oh get back to catching up on Spiderman, you. :D

[Darth Joker]

Do you consider that to be a good thing? Personally, I feel that it's another point against the man.

I perfer a political opponent who is honest and up-front about what s/he stands for over someone who is shady, and euphemistic.

Also, as a character trait in general, I like it when people are genuine.

Now, aside from this *one* good point... Falwell's ideal America would have made Orwell's 1984 seem like a free-thinking paradise in comparison. There's no question that the man had *dangerous* political ideas.

I just like to say something positive about a person who passes on, if I can find something positive to say. ;)

[atoningunifex]

I just like to say something positive about a person who passes on, if I can find something positive to say. ;)

I suppose "Yay, he's dead!" doesn't count, huh?

[Chris Nowlin]

I perfer a political opponent who is honest and up-front about what s/he stands for over someone who is shady, and euphemistic.

Also, as a character trait in general, I like it when people are genuine.

Now, aside from this *one* good point... Falwell's ideal America would have made Orwell's 1984 seem like a free-thinking paradise in comparison. There's no question that the man had *dangerous* political ideas.

I just like to say something positive about a person who passes on, if I can find something positive to say. ;)

Trusting that you're correct about the man, I'd say you've done a good job. Motive does matter. Genuine is better than not.

[Tim OSullivan]

In terms of "scandal" no drugs or women,BUT-

Falwell issued $6 million is uninsured bonds to prop up Liberty University. He was cleared of criminal wrongdoing, but the school went bankrupt, and investors lost millions

Falwell took over PTL after Jim Bakker resigned in disgrace- he presided over the company's bankruptcy.

Wonder who took it in the shorts there?

Not celebrating death, but one less dangerous zealot to worry about.

[Perry Holley]

I just wish I could find a scan of when Falwell showed up in the Elementals comic book as a villain.

[Cosmic Average]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:

WBC will Preach at Jerry Falwell's Funeral!!

WBC will preach at the memorial service of the corpulent false prophet Jerry Falwell, who spent his entire life prophesying lies and false doctrines like "God loves everyone".

There is little doubt that Falwell split Hell wide open the instant he died. The evidence is compelling, overwhelming, and irrefragable. To wit:

1. Falwell was a true Calvinistic Baptist when he was a young preacher in Springfield, Missouri, and sold his soul to Free-Willism (Arminianism) for lucre.

2. Falwell bitterly and viciously attacked WBC because of WBC's faithful Bible preaching -- thereby committing the unpardonable sin -- otherwise known as the sin against the Holy Ghost.

3. Falwell warmly praised Christ-rejecting Jews, pedophile-condoning Catholics, money-grubbing compromisers, practicing **** like Mel White, and backsliders like Billy Graham and Robert Schuler, etc. All for lucre -- making him guilty of their sins.

Falwell is in Hell, Praise God!!

Link (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

[Magneto_X]

Karma's been on a roll the last two weeks. First Olney, then Paris Hilton, then Jenna Elfman (she got attacked by a crazy woman---oh, the irony!) and now Falwell!

[Paul McEnery]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:



Link (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

Ah, that's beautiful.

[Darth Joker]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:



Link (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

My word... just how far right do you have to be in order to attack Jerry Falwell from a far right position! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[parrish]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:

dammit...I drive by the church on my way home from work.

[Magneto_X]

*breathes deeply*

Mmm. I love the smell of "tolerance" in the morning.

Tolerance only works with people who will compromise and generrally work *with* you on equal terms.

Intolerant people don't get a free pass. I won't be a doormat to people who won't respect myself or others.

[Chris Nowlin]

Ah, that's beautiful.

So, according to Phelps, Falwell is far too tolerant and not enough of a crazy Christian.

Speaking of people whose death I'll happily mock...

[josh straightedge]

Hopefully, he didn't end up where he wanted.

[Darth Joker]

Trusting that you're correct about the man, I'd say you've done a good job. Motive does matter. Genuine is better than not.

Thanks. :)

[Mike Smash!]

Here's the press release that Americans United for Separation of Church and State put out on the death of Falwell. They've always had a bit of a Reed Richards/Dr. Doom relationship, especially during duel appearances on talk shows.

Americans United Issues Statement On The Death Of Jerry Falwell

Moral Majority Founder Was ‘Face And Voice Of The Religious Right,’ Says AU’s Lynn

Dr. Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority and one of the key architects of the rise of the Religious Right, died today at age 73.

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United, released the following statement:

“Jerry Falwell politicized religion and failed to understand the genius of our Constitution, but there is no denying his impact on American political life. He will long be remembered as the face and voice of the Religious Right.

“Falwell manipulated a powerful pulpit in exchange for access to political power and promotion of a narrow range of moral concerns. I appeared with him on news programs dozens of times over the years and, while I disagreed with just about everything Falwell stood for, he was a determined advocate for what he believed.

“Falwell reached his apex of power in the 1980s. Since then, leadership of the Religious Right has passed to James Dobson, Pat Robertson, Tony Perkins, Donald Wildmon and others. However, Falwell remained influential in politics, with Republican presidential candidates seeking his support this year.

“Americans United extends its condolences to members of Dr. Falwell’s family, the congregants of Thomas Road Baptist Church and the students and staff of Liberty University.”

Americans United is a religious liberty watchdog group based in Washington, D.C. Founded in 1947, the organization educates Americans about the importance of church-state separation in safeguarding religious freedom.

[Magneto_X]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

Normally you'd be right. But everyone has limits. Falwell is simply one of those people who many people are glad died. His own actions are the fault of it.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

I'm an athiest, as well. You are wrong by him being "untouched" by scandal. This is the guy who infamously said America deserved 9/11 because the nation tolerated homosexuals and accused the pink Teletubby of being gay! :eek:

[Dreadstar]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:
Link (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)

I'm lurking, trying to get some entertainment, as is my wont, but I got to ask: What the fuck is that? A site parodying Phelps and the Godhatesfags crew?

EDIT, and after a bit of delving, it says copyright of the Westboro Baptist folk, so it's real?

The more I read about Phelps, the more I believe he's just doing the over-the-top bit for attention. Sort of a "christian Anton Levay."

[Chris Nowlin]

I'm an athiest, as well. You are wrong by him being "untouched" by scandal. This is the guy who infamously said America deserved 9/11 because the nation tolerated homosexuals and accused the pink Teletubby of being gay! :eek:

Geez. That is completely, completely untrue.

It was the purple teletubby.

And the purple teletubby probably is gay.

[Mike Smash!]

February 2007: Falwell describes global warming as a conspiracy orchestrated by Satan, liberals, and The Weather Channel.This is my favorite part. I love when a conspiracy involves the Weather Channel. That's Lyndon LaRouche territory there.

Tom's right, though. We shouldn't pretend that Jerry Falwell was anything other than an opportunistic hate-monger who wielded (at one time at least) considerable power in the U.S.' political arena and regularly did so based on bigotry, hate and zealotry. His career was one intolerant and cartoonish statement after another as he marched gradually into cultural irrelevance.

While I sympathize with his family's loss, I can't say that his death was the world's loss.

[hugh45]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naldo View Post

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.



And I asked you to explain what was meant by that, as nobody here appears small-minded

*drinking a coke while reading your statement* "..................as nobody here appears small-minded" :eek: *spiting coke out of mouth*

Thank GOD!! JESUS loves the just/unjust.

[Mike Smash!]

Looks like Phelps is going to picket his funeral:
Link (http://www.godhatesamerica.com/)This says far more about Fred Phelps than it does about Falwell.

When Jerry frikkin' Falwell isn't enough of a theocratic bully for you, what the hell does that make you?

[Fenris]

Well, Justin brought it up.

The point was, there was another recent thread about an evil man's death, so there's precedent for people not being respectful toward the dead

This really reminds me of a thread we had several months ago about a guy who danced on Ronald Reagan's grave. Most people thought it was funny, some thought it was appalling, and the same kinds of argument and snark went back and forth.


õ
I was one of the "appalled" camp, if it matters.

[Mike Smash!]

Inconceivable!!!!Boldido wins the internet for the funniest post today.

[BlairH]

My word... just how far right do you have to be in order to attack Jerry Falwell from a far right position! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Can Phelps and his band of lunatics even be placed on a left/right spectrum?

[Chris Nowlin]

*drinking a coke while reading your statement* "..................as nobody here appears small-minded" :eek: *spiting coke out of mouth*

Thank GOD!! JESUS loves the just/unjust.

At least you were drinking Coke.

I can support that.

[Deathstroke]

I assume the Teletubbies won't be on the funeral guest list?

[Black Atom]

Geez. That is completely, completely untrue.

It was the purple teletubby.

And the purple teletubby probably is gay.

He's not gay. Just extremely British.

I'm with the camp that doesn't believe in giving folks a free pass when they die. Spending your time Wishing ill of the dead probably isn't a healthy and productive way to live, yet I see no reason to pretend someone wasn't a douchebag just because they kicked the bucket.

[Chris Nowlin]

I assume the Teletubbies won't be on the funeral guest list?

They'll be protesting with Fred Phelps

[Chris Nowlin]

He's not gay. Just extremely British.


Whatever. Same thing.

[Magneto_X]

Geez. That is completely, completely untrue.

It was the purple teletubby.

And the purple teletubby probably is gay.

You're right. Thought I typed purple! lol

Btw, we heard this news years back when I was in Australia. Everyone thought this guy was a lunatic there (that I knew), too.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

I grew up here in Lynchburg (even went to his school), so I imagine there will be a lot of celebrating and mourning.

did you?1
as someone from Lynchburg born and raised, I can appreciate the fact that he's done many things for our town, both good and bad.
But as a friend said to me, there's plenty of people still around who will do things probably in his name and for his honor.

[Ed Cunard]

Boldido wins the internet for the funniest post today.

Mike,

Who died and made you judge of wh--

Oh.

[Mike Smash!]

Can Phelps and his band of lunatics even be placed on a left/right spectrum?Yes, they're socially very far to the Right. They take reactionary stances on social issues.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

"Ding, dong, the witch is dead..."

hehehe I've had this stuck in my head since lunch ;)

[Magneto_X]

Can Phelps and his band of lunatics even be placed on a left/right spectrum?

Isn't Phelps a Democrat*?


* I didn't believe it at first, either

[Chris Nowlin]

Yes, they're socially very far to the Right. They take reactionary stances on social issues.

I think they're far enough to the right that they meet the far left and we just call them all crazy.

Kind of like how the number line can be seen as a circle, which the far negative and far postive joined at the point at infinity.

[Mike Smash!]

Isn't Phelps a Democrat*?


* I didn't believe it at first, eitherSo was George Wallace and Strom Thurmond or Zell Miller for that matter....etc.

Party affilliation can have very little to do with ideology. The two certainly aren't synonymous.

[Dreadstar]

Phelps is, as Blair observed, a lunatic. Therefore he belongs on the other guy's side of the line. Whomever the "other guys" are. I think Blair is more correct. If you can plot people's politics on a (x,y) graph, Phelps represents someone on the z-axis.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

And you might want to do a little research (http://www.thecarpetbaggerreport.com/archives/10806.html) before you defend the man:

You left out when he came to the sidewalk in front of my high school with enlarged pictures of dead fetuses to protest abortion. Great way for a 14 year old to start the day.

He's also ruined families with his feelings about pre-maritial sex and his feelings towards homosexuality.

[Quarterwolf]

I could swear Falwell was busted for abusing Perscription drugs or something at some point. I remember it made Jade laugh.

Maybe I am thinking of someone else?

[Justin Davis]

It's interesting that so many of you are willing to show that you are just as small minded as Jerry Falwell was.

Being a bigger person, the ability to rise above a situation seems to be beyond the capabilities of some of you.

I'm going to quote a few people here because they all seem to say what I was thinking when I read your post and a couple other people's.

I'm not sure we're just as small-minded.

Small-minded to me refers to things like judging an entire group of people by the actions of a few, or insisting everybody else view the world through your philosophy.

To look at one man's words and deeds and objectively determine that those are the words and deeds of an evil man... I don't see the small-mindedness.

But maybe I don't see it because I'm too small-minded. Enlighten me.

Nobody said he was as bad as Hussein. What Justin said, if you go back and read his post, is that he had the same feeling upon hearing of Falwell's death that he did upon hearing of Hussein's death. That is nowhere near the same as saying they did equally bad things, it just described the very subjective feelings of Jusitn.

Those are his feelings, just as your feelings are that people who are revelling in his death are being crass and how I am feeling that your posts are self-important and condescending.

Thanks, Boldido. It seems my subjective feelings are also felt by many other people.

If calling a man evil for supporting and defending apartheid, for claiming that AIDS was God's punishment against gays, for claiming that God doesn't listen to Jews and that the anti-Christ is a Jew, for blaming the 3000 deaths on 9/11 to pagans, feminists and gays makes me small-minded in your eyes, well, that just says more about you than me, doesn't it?

Yep. Also, all these points people are bringing up are in the Wikipedia links I provided here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=4823275&postcount=39). I linked to a post full of links. That has to tamper with the space time continuum somehow.

[Mike Smash!]

I think they're far enough to the right that they meet the far left and we just call them all crazy.I'm sorry. That's just a cop-out.

The Left has its share of assholes, but I don't know any of them that call for the literalist interpretation of the Bible, Young Earth creationism, the belief that AIDS is God's punishment for gays, or that God actively hates and wants to kill gays, atheists, secularists and other assorted people.

There are anarchist groups that bleed the line between Right and Left at times, but it's not a vague thing where on the spectrum Phelps stands on social issues. He's a social reactionary and the only people that seem to deny this are on the Right themselves and want to disown him (understandably).

[parrish]

did you?1
as someone from Lynchburg born and raised, I can appreciate the fact that he's done many things for our town, both good and bad.
But as a friend said to me, there's plenty of people still around who will do things probably in his name and for his honor.

Yeah. I can see the good and bad on the Lynchburg level. It seemed to me like if Lynchburg didn't have something (night club, whatever) that he was instantly the scapegoat, whether he had anything to do with it or not.

[Matthew K.]

he sounds like a giant ass-head.

his followers are likely equally ass-headed.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

I could swear Falwell was busted for abusing Perscription drugs or something at some point. I remember it made Jade laugh.

Maybe I am thinking of someone else?

I may be confusing him with someone else.... in fact I think it was Rush Limbaugh, who had prescriptions in the name of several other people on his person during an airport search.

Falwell was more recently involved in a scandal with our at-the-time Mayor (who since I beleive stepped down, I know he quit being a minister at his church but I can't remember about the mayor bit) after some real estate stuff came out.

[Justin Davis]

Tom's right, though. We shouldn't pretend that Jerry Falwell was anything other than an opportunistic hate-monger who wielded (at one time at least) considerable power in the U.S.' political arena and regularly did so based on bigotry, hate and zealotry. His career was one intolerant and cartoonish statement after another as he marched gradually into cultural irrelevance.

Exactly. I don't think we have to worry much about his slot being filled by someone else because it was filled by numerous others before now. That probably doesn't make many feel much better.

I'm sorry. That's just a cop-out.

The Left has its share of assholes, but I don't know any of them that call for the literalist interpretation of the Bible, Young Earth creationism, the belief that AIDS is God's punishment for gays, or that God actively hates and wants to kill gays, atheists, secularists and other assorted people.

There are anarchist groups that bleed the line between Right and Left at times, but it's not a vague thing where on the spectrum Phelps stands on social issues. He's a social reactionary and the only people that seem to deny this are on the Right themselves and want to disown him (understandably).

You know I'm on the left, and I'll deny it. Phelps may agree with some usually right-wing ideas (most likely only on a purely concept-level), but I wouldn't say he's on the Right. Whatever that means. The guy's just fucking nuts.

[parrish]

You left out when he came to the sidewalk in front of my high school with enlarged pictures of dead fetuses to protest abortion. Great way for a 14 year old to start the day.

He's also ruined families with his feelings about pre-maritial sex and his feelings towards homosexuality.

Was that at glass? I didn't go to glass, but a friend of mine said that happened there.

[Justin Davis]

I may be confusing him with someone else.... in fact I think it was Rush Limbaugh, who had prescriptions in the name of several other people on his person during an airport search.

Falwell was more recently involved in a scandal with our at-the-time Mayor (who since I beleive stepped down, I know he quit being a minister at his church but I can't remember about the mayor bit) after some real estate stuff came out.

Yep, that was definitely Limbaugh who's a fan of oxycotin.

[Magneto_X]

I could swear Falwell was busted for abusing Perscription drugs or something at some point. I remember it made Jade laugh.

Maybe I am thinking of someone else?

Could be Rush Limbaugh.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

Yeah. I can see the good and bad on the Lynchburg level. It seemed to me like if Lynchburg didn't have something (night club, whatever) that he was instantly the scapegoat, whether he had anything to do with it or not.

Exactly - like someone today said "Well, now we'll finally get a Hooters."
No we won't, all his church goers are still around, and their threats of boycotts are the reason some changes are made, or some restaurants don't come etc.

His son was really running most things anyways.

[Jade69/Legolaslady]

Was that at glass? I didn't go to glass, but a friend of mine said that happened there.

Yup. Our principal called the cops on them :D

[Fenris]

I'm sorry. That's just a cop-out.

The Left has its share of assholes, but I don't know any of them that call for the literalist interpretation of the Bible, Young Earth creationism, the belief that AIDS is God's punishment for gays, or that God actively hates and wants to kill gays, atheists, secularists and other assorted people.

There are anarchist groups that bleed the line between Right and Left at times, but it's not a vague thing where on the spectrum Phelps stands on social issues. He's a social reactionary and the only people that seem to deny this are on the Right themselves and want to disown him (understandably).


Wasn't Phelps an Al Gore supporter earlier in his career?

Not that this is conclusive, of course; you in particular aren't going to think that Democrat = Left. But it illustrates the difficulties of applying the left-right spectrum to someone like him.

The Left/Right spectrum is useful for mainstream American politics, since it mirrors the two-party system and generally conveys some kind of practical information about people. When I tell someone that you're left-wing, they can make fairly accurate guesses about your views on taxes, environmentalism, the death penalty, etc.

But the whole point of a radical like Phelps is that he's not working on that spectrum: he's not more-or-less in favor of taxes, more-or-less in favor of capital punishment, more-or-less in favor of gay rights. His positions are determined by an agenda that's completely outside the mainstream, and any resemblance to the mainstream left or right is little more than a coincidence.

You might as well ask whether King Tut was left or right. His basic political principles weren't the same as ours, so the question makes no sense.

õ
Though I suspect Phelps' "agenda" is mainly self-publicity!

[Magneto_X]

You know I'm on the left, and I'll deny it. Phelps may agree with some usually right-wing ideas (most likely only on a purely concept-level), but I wouldn't say he's on the Right. Whatever that means. The guy's just fucking nuts.

What positions does Phelps have for the "left"?

The extreme "Right" includes neocons, the Minutemen and the religious (usually protastant [sp]) fanatics*.

Fenris:

IIRC Phelps absolutely hates gay. I think he's the genius who organises protests at soldiers/gay people's funerals because they support homosexuals.

* this group calls themselves the Religious Right (?) and contains Focus on the Family and the so-called Moral majority (this Falwell created), among other rightwing nutjob groups

[parrish]

Exactly - like someone today said "Well, now we'll finally get a Hooters."
No we won't, all his church goers are still around, and their threats of boycotts are the reason some changes are made, or some restaurants don't come etc.

His son was really running most things anyways.

And if you really had to have a Hooters visit, Roanoke was 45 minutes away...A girl my wife graduated with was working there and was murdered by a patron, so I am kind of glad to see it not here in town.

[Tom]

Phelps is a radical contrarian. While some of his opinions intersect with those of the far right, he really can't be classified.

[Slam_Bradley]

And if you really had to have a Hooters visit, Roanoke was 45 minutes away...A girl my wife graduated with was working there and was murdered by a patron, so I am kind of glad to see it not here in town.


Because as we know, most murders happen at Hooters'.

[Sean Whitmore]

Wow, this week keeps getting better and better.

And of a bad heart, too. It's just too good, I know I'm gonna put on weight.


SEAN

[Gingold]

I feel bad that I'm happy that he's dead.

[Sean Whitmore]

I hope more than ever that Buddhism is the true religion. So that when Jerry sees Buddha we can hear his screams from the afterlife.


SEAN

[Mike Smash!]

Wasn't Phelps an Al Gore supporter earlier in his career?Al Gore was a pretty conservative Democrat, a founder of the Democratic Leadership Council, and even then it was the softening on gay rights issues over time that caused the split between the two. It wasn't because Al Gore got too conservative that Phelps split. It was that he thought Gore was too liberal.

Not that this is conclusive, of course; you in particular aren't going to think that Democrat = Left. But it illustrates the difficulties of applying the left-right spectrum to someone like him. Phelps doesn't talk about economic issues, but he's made it clear where his priorities are: social issues.

And on social issues, he's reactionary to a medieval extreme. He's socially on the extreme far Right. Crazy, yes. But crazy doesn't toss someone off the political spectrum.

The Left/Right spectrum is useful for mainstream American politics, since it mirrors the two-party system and generally conveys some kind of practical information about people. When I tell someone that you're left-wing, they can make fairly accurate guesses about your views on taxes, environmentalism, the death penalty, etc.Actually, it's a very poor way of gauging the American political spectrum, especially since there are a number of ideologies that are impossible to place on it -- libertarianism for instance.

And ideology isn't gauged just on a stance on an issue (Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan have similar stances on trade, for instance, but are nowhere nearly each other politically), but the reasoning behind the stance. And his stances and stated motivations for them match those of the Religious Right -- on crack.

Fred Phelps is on the Right... He's the fringe that even the fringe disavows. Much the same way that the idiots like Bob Avakian and the Revolutionary Communist Party (they're Stalinists) are on the Left that even radicals like me don't like to associate with.

But the whole point of a radical like Phelps is that he's not working on that spectrum: he's not more-or-less in favor of taxes, more-or-less in favor of capital punishment, more-or-less in favor of gay rights. His positions are determined by an agenda that's completely outside the mainstream, and any resemblance to the mainstream left or right is little more than a coincidence. I'm sorry, Fenris, but this is a cop-out. Falwell and Robertson and the Religious Right also never talk about economic issues, but they are quite easy to place on the far Right -- and not because they associate with Republicans. But because of the reactionary stances they take on social issues.

Ask yourself this... looking at Phelps rhetoric, you don't see how its just a cartoonish extreme of the social religious Right? Who on the Left comes into the same hemisphere on social issues.

Falwell is Coke. Phelps is Jolt.

Again, I want to clarify that I'm not saying that you're anything like him, but I find it pretty shocking that people can act in any way confused about the political leanings of his stances on political social issues.

[Fenris]

What positions does Phelps have for the "left"?

Well, looking at Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps), it seems safe to say that he's in favor of legalized flag-burning.

More seriously- he's obsessively anti-gay. That seems to be the sum total of his political interests. But the left-right spectrum doesn't do well with single-issue people, either, since the whole point of the two categories is that they group lots of separate issues into two opposing camps.

It's like saying... um, let's see... that pacifists often don't like the military; the right tends to be more pro-military; therefore all pacifists are leftists. It seems superficially plausible, but it's not true: there are right-wing pacifists. It just shows that single-issue people don't place well on the spectrum.


The extreme "Right" includes neocons

Yay!

, the Minutemen

Boo!

and the religious (usually protastant [sp]) fanatics*.

We may have to disagree about the scope of the word "fanatic" here.


Fenris:

Hello!

IIRC Phelps absolutely hates gay. I think he's the genius who organises protests at soldiers/gay people's funerals because they support homosexuals.

Quite right. He pickets AIDS victims' funerals because... well, because he's evil. But he says it's because AIDS is their punishment from God. He pickets the funerals of American veterans because he says that war deaths are a punishment from God.


õ
He's all about the message discipline!

[Mike Smash!]

Well, looking at Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps), it seems safe to say that he's in favor of legalized flag-burning.

That's not a Left position. Many Libertarians take that stance as well. And given that he hates the U.S. government -- again not exclusively a Left idea -- it's consistent with his POV.

More seriously- he's obsessively anti-gay. That seems to be the sum total of his political interests. But the left-right spectrum doesn't do well with single-issue people, either, since the whole point of the two categories is that they group lots of separate issues into two opposing camps. If I was a single issue person and my only issue was universal healthcare, there's really only one ideology that takes that stance. Leftism.

The virulent anti-gay stuff and the stance that only people who follow his interpretation of the Bible will be saved is almost exclusively a Far Right position. Specifically a Religious Right position, taken to an extreme.

It's like saying... um, let's see... that pacifists often don't like the military; the right tends to be more pro-military; therefore all pacifists are leftists. It seems superficially plausible, but it's not true: there are right-wing pacifists. It just shows that single-issue people don't place well on the spectrum. He's not a pacifist. Pacifism itself is independent of political position anyways. He regularly tries to rile people into violence openly.

And being anti-military is just an extension of him being anti-government (a position that right wing anarchist Timothy McVeigh took as well) and look at WHY he wants soldiers to die -- Because this country tolerates the existance of gays!

Even being anti-war is not a Left position, unless you think the Libertarian and Constitution Parties are on the Left. Or Pat Buchanan for that matter.


Quite right. He pickets AIDS victims' funerals because... well, because he's evil. But he says it's because AIDS is their punishment from God. He pickets the funerals of American veterans because he says that war deaths are a punishment from God. A punishment from God for this country tolerating gays...

Find a single prominent Leftist or Libertarian that takes that position, because it seems to be exclusive to the Far Right.

Again, Fenris. I'm not trying to say that he's anything like you. He's not. No more than I'm anything like Bob Avakian of the RCP. But I won't deny that they're on the Left either. A Left that even radicals like me doesn't want to be seen with. A Left that attacks radicals like me as being too conservative.

[Lex]

I'll keep Falwell's family in my prayers.

Having said that, I'm having a lot of trouble dredging up any remorse for his passing. He caused a lot of damage to this country and Christianity as a whole. It's hard not to think that we're better off without him.

[Ed Cunard]

That's not a Left position. Many Libertarians take that stance as well. And given that he hates the U.S. government -- again not exclusively a Left idea -- it's consistent with his POV.

That's the thing, too--forgetting the idea of political party ideology, or whatever, the U.S. is too binary in regards to how it treats politics. Right and Left are such bullshit distinctions here. It's absolutely possible for someone on the "Right" and someone on the "Left" to have the exact same idea, but an idea they've come to from completely different perspectives and positions.

It's why I hesitate to associate with any labels--depending on the issue, I could be a conservative, a liberal, a radical, a Marxist, a socialist, a libertarian, etc. Just boiling it down to "Right" and "Left" is too... simplistic.

[Fenris]

Al Gore was a pretty conservative Democrat, a founder of the Democratic Leadership Council, and even then it was the softening on gay rights issues over time that caused the split between the two. It wasn't because Al Gore got too conservative that Phelps split. It was that he thought Gore was too liberal.

Yes, I know. It's just an example of how imprecise and ill-serving these labels are: why did he support Gore? Because Gore at his right-wingest still isn't anywhere near Phelps' neighborhood.


Phelps doesn't talk about economic issues, but he's made it clear where his priorities are: social issues.

Well, one social issue. He doesn't picket the funerals of feminists or black people, as far as I know.


And on social issues, he's reactionary to a medieval extreme. He's socially on the extreme far Right. Crazy, yes. But crazy doesn't toss someone off the political spectrum.

That depends on what kind of crazy he is.


Actually, it's a very poor way of gauging the American political spectrum, especially since there are a number of ideologies that are impossible to place on it -- libertarianism for instance.

Eh, I don't know. Like I said, I judge its effectiveness by how much information it can reliably communicate. To revert to my previous example: suppose I tell someone that you're a leftist, and ask them to guess your political views. Is there any political issue they'll guess wrong- aside from your commitment to the Green Party?


And ideology isn't gauged just on a stance on an issue (Ralph Nader and Pat Buchanan have similar stances on trade, for instance, but are nowhere nearly each other politically), but the reasoning behind the stance. And his stances and stated motivations for them match those of the Religious Right -- on crack.

That's dramatic, but I'm not sure that it means anything. After all, the whole point of something being on crack is that it's a bizarre, distorted parody of its natural self.


Fred Phelps is on the Right... He's the fringe that even the fringe disavows. Much the same way that the idiots like Bob Avakian and the Revolutionary Communist Party (they're Stalinists) are on the Left that even radicals like me don't like to associate with.

I'm sorry, Fenris, but this is a cop-out.

Oh, yeah?!

Falwell and Robertson and the Religious Right also never talk about economic issues, but they are quite easy to place on the far Right -- and not because they associate with Republicans. But because of the reactionary stances they take on social issues.

Falwell and Robertson are (were) explicitly political over a period of decades. They worked for the passage or prevention of innumerable laws and candidates. We can place them on a political spectrum because they're obvious political agents.

Phelps protests funerals. That's not a political activity except in the same bizarro-crack sense that he can be considered political at all.



Ask yourself this... looking at Phelps rhetoric, you don't see how its just a cartoonish extreme of the social religious Right? Who on the Left comes into the same hemisphere on social issues.

Sure, I can see a resemblance. I just don't think the resemblance tells us anything useful. It is, in other words, a functional coincidence.

Falwell is Coke. Phelps is Jolt.

And I'm Diet Coke!
(Or maybe a chocolate milkshake. Mmmm, I'm hungry.)

If the right is caffeinated and super-caffeinated, does that mean you're warm milk?


Again, I want to clarify that I'm not saying that you're anything like him, but I find it pretty shocking that people can act in any way confused about the political leanings of his stances on political social issues.

It's an issue of labels. I don't like using them unless they tell us things. And I don't think the right-wing label tells us anything new or useful here.


õ
Which makes it a semantic issue!

[Mike Smash!]

That's the thing, too--forgetting the idea of political party ideology, or whatever, the U.S. is too binary in regards to how it treats politics. Right and Left are such bullshit distinctions here. It's absolutely possible for someone on the "Right" and someone on the "Left" to have the exact same idea, but an idea they've come to from completely different perspectives and positions. Oh, I agree. Which is why I mentioned the Nader/Buchanan agreement on trade issues.

But when you ask Nader why he opposes NAFTA/GATT/WTO, you'll get a different answer than you will from Buchanan. And it's in the "why" that you get ideology.

Politics are certainly a lot more complex than the binary Democrat/Republican stuff, but in Phelps' statements and his explanations of his stances, we get a picture of an ideology that is anti-government, but incredibly authoritarian and theocratic. His social issue stance that he takes are very much based on "My Bible says this and if you disagree, I'm going to dance on your grave while you burn in hell. But even before you die, I'm going to harrass you." His stances are incredible reactionary -- in the sense that you could call Torquemada on the Right religiously. The only thing that Phelps lacked was an army to back him up.

It's why I hesitate to associate with any labels--depending on the issue, I could be a conservative, a liberal, a radical, a Marxist, a socialist, a libertarian, etc. Just boiling it down to "Right" and "Left" is too... simplistic.Oh, I agree, but I was speaking in general terms. But on social issues, Phelps is to what we call the political Religious Right, albeit a dark corner of it that you usually only see in Chick Tracts.

[Ed Cunard]

Oh, I agree, but I was speaking in general terms. But on social issues, Phelps is to what we call the political Religious Right, albeit a dark corner of it that you usually only see in Chick Tracts.

I *wish* I only saw it in Chick Tracts.

[Adam C]

Phelps protests funerals. That's not a political activity except in the same bizarro-crack sense that he can be considered political at all.

It's a political activity because it is an expression of Phelps' anti-gay agenda.

And Phelps is political, even if his politics are obsessively and narrowly focused on a single issue.

And I agree with Mike that Phelps can be defined far right in so far as the single issue he focuses on comes from somewhere held among the political right in politics. Though Tom's probably more on the money defining him as a radical contrarian, since he's only ever defined by what he opposes. (And that in itself is a very narrow thing.)

[Fenris]

He's not a pacifist. Pacifism itself is independent of political position anyways. He regularly tries to rile people into violence openly.

Nonono! I'm not saying that Phelps is a pacifist. I'm using pacifists in general as an example of my point. They often dislike the military, the right generally likes the military, but that doesn't mean we can automatically put all pacifists on the left.

As you said, pacifism is independent of political positions. It's too big to be locked down into this particular labelling system.


Again, Fenris. I'm not trying to say that he's anything like you. He's not. No more than I'm anything like Bob Avakian of the RCP. But I won't deny that they're on the Left either. A Left that even radicals like me doesn't want to be seen with. A Left that attacks radicals like me as being too conservative.

Well, of course I understand that it's not personal, Mike. I wouldn't think that in the first place.

But: when you say that they're leftists, what exactly do you share with them? If someone in a political debate mentioned them as examples of leftists, would this clarify or confuse the discussion?


õ
You can tell which way I'd bet!

[Mike Smash!]

Yes, I know. It's just an example of how imprecise and ill-serving these labels are: why did he support Gore? Because Gore at his right-wingest still isn't anywhere near Phelps' neighborhood.He supported Gore because Phelps was a Dixiecrat and had probably been brought up from birth to hate the party of Lincoln. Most Dixiecrats eventually became Republicans. Some stuck around like Wallace and Miller, though still very conservative.

I'm not a fan of Al Gore, but I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know the sort of person that Phelps was on a lot of issues early in his career or what he'd evolve into.

Remember, that when Gore had Phelps in his fan club, he was vigorously anti-abortion and was very socially conservative.

Well, one social issue. He doesn't picket the funerals of feminists or black people, as far as I know. But that doesn't attract the press, nor have I ever said that Phelps was racist. According to his history, he's not a racist.

Also, its clear that his hatred of gays trumps all. Even his anti-military stuff is all about homophobia.


Eh, I don't know. Like I said, I judge its effectiveness by how much information it can reliably communicate. To revert to my previous example: suppose I tell someone that you're a leftist, and ask them to guess your political views. Is there any political issue they'll guess wrong- aside from your commitment to the Green Party?Depends entirely. I'm quite a bit more libertarian on gun issues than most Greens and I'm actually very dismissive of "hippie"/New Age stuff.

But that's a bad example. I'm not judging Phelps by what someone has said about him, but by what I've seen this guy saying and doing himself. If your friend had as much exposure to my politics as I have to Phelps', he could probably figure out where I stood politically, even without a mention of my partisan affiliations.

That's dramatic, but I'm not sure that it means anything. After all, the whole point of something being on crack is that it's a bizarre, distorted parody of its natural self. Which is how I perceive some fringe Leftists and as much as I would like to disown them, they're still Leftists, albeit embarrassing ones.

Oh, yeah?!

Yes, I do. I think you might be getting too defensive about this, but again, I'm not comparing you to these people. But it feels like you're ignoring their obvious right-leaning rhetoric and stances because you find them embarrassing.


Falwell and Robertson are (were) explicitly political over a period of decades. They worked for the passage or prevention of innumerable laws and candidates. We can place them on a political spectrum because they're obvious political agents.

Phelps protests funerals. That's not a political activity except in the same bizarro-crack sense that he can be considered political at all.

Protests are political by their very nature. I have friends that protest the Iraq War constantly and even take part into some non violence civil disobedience, but don't schmooze elected officials or form PACs. They're quite political. Taking a loud and vocal stand on an issue is political.

Sure, I can see a resemblance. I just don't think the resemblance tells us anything useful. It is, in other words, a functional coincidence. Stating similarity isn't the same thing as stating that two things are synonymous.

If the right is caffeinated and super-caffeinated, does that mean you're warm milk?

That's not what I'm saying, Fenris. I was making an analogy of two things. Very similar products -- one much more charged than the other. For an opposite example, moderate liberals are Coke and I'm Jolt.

It's an issue of labels. I don't like using them unless they tell us things. And I don't think the right-wing label tells us anything new or useful here. An over-reliance on labels is a bad thing, but in general his views of social issues are right-wing -- a branch of the Right that not even the mainstream fringe (I want to copyright that phrase) wants to touch with a ten foot pole.

[Fenris]

It's a political activity because it is an expression of Phelps' anti-gay agenda.

Hmm. As far as I can tell, it is the agenda. It's not like funeral protests are a stepping-stone to the Presidency, after all. Or to changing people's minds. Or to much of anything.

That's why I have trouble classing him as a political figure. Most political activity at least makes some kind of sense, on some level- even if it turns out to be stupid, you can see how they intended it to work.

But Phelps stages antagonistic protests in order to antagonize people. That's not a rational political goal by any standard I can wrap my head around. He's a real-life troll.


õ
As life comes to resemble the internet!

[Magneto_X]

Yes, I know. It's just an example of how imprecise and ill-serving these labels are: why did he support Gore? Because Gore at his right-wingest still isn't anywhere near Phelps' neighborhood.


You'd have to ask Phelps on that.

Gore did seem more conservative in those days. It wasn't until recently that he became a protector of the environment. Publically, anyway.

Gore is also in the DLC, which is in the Dem party is as close to being a Republican as you can get without leaving it.

Well, one social issue. He doesn't picket the funerals of feminists or black people, as far as I know.

That isn't enough? IIRC it doesn't matter what race or gender the soldier he's protesting is. I'm sure he's protested at at least one black soldier's funeral.


That depends on what kind of crazy he is.

What does Phelps or Falwell have to do to convince you they're crazy?

Eh, I don't know. Like I said, I judge its effectiveness by how much information it can reliably communicate. To revert to my previous example: suppose I tell someone that you're a leftist, and ask them to guess your political views. Is there any political issue they'll guess wrong- aside from your commitment to the Green Party?

You can say you're a member of the Green party but if you don't follow most of the ideals of said party people will think you're a poser. For some reason Phelps thinks he is or wants to come across as a Democrat. Who knows why. But that doesn't mean he truly is one.

That's dramatic, but I'm not sure that it means anything. After all, the whole point of something being on crack is that it's a bizarre, distorted parody of its natural self.

That's his entire point.

Falwell and Robertson are (were) explicitly political over a period of decades. They worked for the passage or prevention of innumerable laws and candidates. We can place them on a political spectrum because they're obvious political agents.

You say this like it isn't a bad thing. Politics and religion should never mix. Their actions alone are proof that it shouldn't.

Phelps protests funerals. That's not a political activity except in the same bizarro-crack sense that he can be considered political at all.

Isn't the reason he's doing it political?

He doesn't like how the American government allows gays to have equal rights
so he does this to "punish" those who work for it.


It's an issue of labels. I don't like using them unless they tell us things. And I don't think the right-wing label tells us anything new or useful here.


The right wing uses labels like "liberal" in a such a fashion to make it an insult. They've been doing this for years. They do it so much that they consider Hilary Clinton a liberal. She isn't.

[Mike Smash!]

But: when you say that they're leftists, what exactly do you share with them? If someone in a political debate mentioned them as examples of leftists, would this clarify or confuse the discussion?We share the same position of universal healthcare, universal public education through college and women's rights and gay rights. We also have the same stances on trade and on the Iraq War. They're socialists/communists ideologically, and I have a number of respected friends who are socialists however....

The RCP are also extremists in their top-down "vanguard" view of politics and that they're openly and proudly pro-Stalin and have the biggest blinders I've ever seen about his totalitarian regime. They're blatantly anti-democratic, hate the idea of and tell people not to vote and instead just want to recruit people into their party until they just magically have enough people to take power by force.

They're also a cult of personality built around a man named Bob Avakian, who likes to pretend that he's much more relevant than he actually is -- much in the same way that Lyndon LaRouche does.

I tend to put socialists I know into one of two camps... those willing to work with non-socialist leftists on issues and in elections and the sectarians who are far more interested in being an exclusive club and in worshipping their "great leader" than in reality.

The socialists I respect are generally Debsian socialists who are much more "bottom-up", despise Stalin, and care more for talking to people about issues than one using the precise party approved doctrinare language or herding in behind a figurehead.

[Spike-X]

http://www.correctopinions.com/tinky.jpg

[JeffreyWKramer]

Falwell was an evil fuck. Anyone that doesn't see this seriously needs to reexamine their concept of evil. By what fucked-up definition does bigotry, misogyny and support of apartheid not qualify as evil? Or does the word "evil" only apply to serial murderers and genocidal tyrants now?

I'm glad Falwell dead. The world's a better place with him dead, and would be better yet had he died 40 years ago. There's a part of me that wishes his death had been extremely prolonged and painful, and involved a lot of elements such as big, pustulent boils and chronic and painful projectile diarrhea. I'm not particularly proud of that part, but it is what it is. Still, dead is dead, and Falwell being dead is a good thing.

Phelps is so out-there that left/right doesn't make a lot of sense in describing his POV. Sure, he's extremely social-conservative, but not in the "respect all authority" sense of most social conservatives. One might as well classify Osama Bin Laden a right-winger due to his brand of radical fundy Islam, which is about as social-conservative as you can get, at least in middle-eastern flavors. Such classifications, while true enough as far as they go, pretty much completely miss the point.

[Mike Smash!]

Either way, let's get back to Falwell, we've derailed this thread enough...

[BlairH]

Either way, let's get back to Falwell, we've derailed this thread enough...

Wasn't he that dude who died recently or something?

meh whatever lol!

ETA: Yes I'm kidding.

[Calybos]

Now, wait a minute. Are they absolutely sure he's dead? For real?

Because until I hear Bill "Doctor Video" Frist do a remote diagnosis, I just can't be sure we're not rushing into an unwarranted conclusion here.

[Paul McEnery]

Now, wait a minute. Are they absolutely sure he's dead? For real?

Because until I hear Bill "Doctor Video" Frist do a remote diagnosis, I just can't be sure we're not rushing into an unwarranted conclusion here.

You mean he might be undead?

I say we put a stake through his heart, and cut his head off and stuff it with garlic, just to be on the safe side.

[spoon_jenkins]

In the CNN.com article on Falwell's death, there's a link for a video clip of an interview from a week ago. In the interview, Falwell says that he has 20 years of work left to do at Liberty University, so he's praying to god that he lives 20 more years.

Oh, the irony!

[Perry Holley]

Now, wait a minute. Are they absolutely sure he's dead? For real?If he comes back in three days' time, we may well be screwed.

[Paul McEnery]

In the CNN.com article on Falwell's death, there's a link for a video clip of an interview from a week ago. In the interview, Falwell says that he has 20 years of work left to do at Liberty University, so he's praying to god that he lives 20 more years.

Oh, the irony!

Hey, God does listen to prayer after all!

[Iangould]

The nasty comments speak more about those making them than they do Falwell.

I'm an atheist and certainly no fan of the man, but for a someone who lived with his foot in his mouth he was untouched by scandal. And in his business that's something of a minor miracle.

Yeah so what if he opposed sanctions on South Africa; and claimed that majority rule there would lead to a Marxist dictatorship and that Desmond Tutu didn't represent the wishes of the majority of black South Africans.

Next people will be criticising him for funding and promoting a video "documentary" linking Bill Clinton to cocaine dealing and the alleged murder of Vincent Foster.

Sure he started out as a strong supporter of segregation and well into the 60's was still supporting Lester Maddox and George Wallace.

How can you not admire the man who said:

"I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this [9-11] happen.'"

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals."

"I hope to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we don't have public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them."

Personally I don't wish anyone dead and I'm not going to celebrate Falwell's death. But I do understand the feelings of the people who have taken this opportunity to express their disdain for Falwell.

[Iangould]

Sadam actually ordered and participated in the genoicide of thousands of people.
Falwell didn't kill anyone.

That's a major difference in the evil these men did.

If his bigotry is paramount to murder then I suppose we all kill every once in a while.

No, he just helped fund the Apartheid era South African government which was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people in Mozambique and Angola.

[Iangould]

Trusting that you're correct about the man, I'd say you've done a good job. Motive does matter. Genuine is better than not.

Adolf Hitler genuinely believed in the Aryan master-race and the Jewish plot for world domination.

Hermann Goering used to laugh his arse off about these theories in private while repeating them in public.

Sometimes sincerity doesn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

[Lex]

“I join the students, faculty and staff of Liberty University and Americans of all faiths in mourning the loss of Reverend Jerry Falwell,” [John] McCain said in a statement. “Dr. Falwell was a man of distinguished accomplishment who devoted his life to serving his faith and country."
That's a very interesting statement coming from a guy who once called Falwell an "agent of intollerance."

[Mike Smash!]

Jerry Falwell, Agent of I.N.T.O.L.E.R.A.N.C.E.!

[Iangould]

My word... just how far right do you have to be in order to attack Jerry Falwell from a far right position! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Phelps transcends the political spectrum.

Hell, he used to be a Democrat.

[Iangould]

The more I read about Phelps, the more I believe he's just doing the over-the-top bit for attention. Sort of a "christian Anton Levay."

Well there is also the healthy living he and his family/alcolytes/accomplices make from suing people they manage to provoke into assaulting them and cities that try to ban their rallies.

[Nikita]

I'm never happy to hear when someone dies either.

Except this time.


Heh. I felt the same way when I heard about his passing today.

[Sabrinaset]

Well, this thread got Mr. McEnery to publicly admit in the existence of God, so there's hope yet!

I don't really know much about Falwell, I mean ... I've personally learned more about him in the last five minutes than I have in the last twenty years or so, but some of what you guys are writing ...

Here's (http://www.access