If you could banish one thin from the Marvel U what would it be?

[Bradpinder]

You know just one thing, something that bugs you, like time travel, or telaportation machiens, or diffrent dimensions... like that. Me and I know this wont make me toopopular but hell I dont care, Id like to banish magic, Im bored of it, i think its an easy fix to too many things. I have never been a fan of it.

[StoneGold]

One thin? You mean like Flatman?

[Weapon Ick]

Sentry.
I didn't even have to think about it.

[GozertheGozarian]

Resurrection. You die, you stay there. Forever.

[Bradpinder]

Sentry.
I didn't even have to think about it.

No no, not people, anything but people.

[Den]

The SHRA law

[P33KAJ3W]

Resurrection. You die, you stay there. Forever.

Quoted for Truth

[Strannik]

Marvel Time. Because having continuity without proper long-term developments sucks.

[Weapon Ick]

No no, not people, anything but people.

Good point. So let me change my answer a little. I don't mind Sentry as a character but I do not like the idea that he has been in the MU forever. The fact that his past is one giant ret con makes me uncomfortable.

So I change my answer to: Sentry's origin.

[TotalWorldDomination]

Marvel's method of solving time travel paradoxes. Idiotic. Its the one marvel concept that I hate with a fevered passion. it makes any "restoration of the timeline" story totaly pointless. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it.

[MythicBrawn]

I would eliminate the fear and prejudice against mutants. The MU plays this up too much and it doesn't make sense. Mutants and other super-humans should be lumped into a single group. How does the public tell the difference between the two that it can focus its hatred for one and not the other? Certain super-humans, like Capt. America and FF, can get a pass because of their celebrity status but most, if not all, of the others should be treated with fear and prejudice. In this regard, other universes like DCU and Astro City got it right in that they don't distinguish between mutants and other super-humans. When there is a public outcry against super-humans, it's against all of them, not just mutants.

[StoneGold]

When there is a public outcry against super-humans, it's against all of them, not just mutants.

Did you miss Civil War?

[colossus20]

Eliminate the Ultimate universe. I hate it with a passion. I hate what they've done to the characters, the stories, the whole marvel world. I HATE it! It's one huge, superpowered soap opera that reads like a cheesy dime novel. Get rid of it, for good.

[Monty_Cristo]

Luke Cage's marriage

[desanth]

Time Travel

[Omega Alpha]

Eliminate the Ultimate universe. I hate it with a passion. I hate what they've done to the characters, the stories, the whole marvel world. I HATE it! It's one huge, superpowered soap opera that reads like a cheesy dime novel. Get rid of it, for good.

Why you just don't read it instead?

I would eliminate the fear and prejudice against mutants. The MU plays this up too much and it doesn't make sense. Mutants and other super-humans should be lumped into a single group. How does the public tell the difference between the two that it can focus its hatred for one and not the other? Certain super-humans, like Capt. America and FF, can get a pass because of their celebrity status but most, if not all, of the others should be treated with fear and prejudice. In this regard, other universes like DCU and Astro City got it right in that they don't distinguish between mutants and other super-humans. When there is a public outcry against super-humans, it's against all of them, not just mutants.

Unlike superhumans, which in most cases are normal people which were bitten by radioactive spiders or something, mutants are the next step in evolution and mutantkind will replace humankind someday (that's why, among other reasons, why the mutant population boom should have been followed after Morrison), and many, many of them love to point that out, like Magneto, who is perhaps the main responsible for the bad image mutants have, by his crazy attacks in the 60's and 70's and later doing things like he did in Fatal Attractions while proclaming himself king of all mutants.

Plus, have you been reading anything at the MU lately? The public fears all metahumans, but among those, mutants are the most hated.

[ultramandingo]

...the cancelation of " next wave "

[rZi]

Eliminate the Ultimate universe. I hate it with a passion. I hate what they've done to the characters, the stories, the whole marvel world. I HATE it! It's one huge, superpowered soap opera that reads like a cheesy dime novel. Get rid of it, for good.

This and the other, the whole totem stuff from spiderman making his origin 100% worthless, it's like spitting in stan lee's face.

[MythicBrawn]

Did you miss Civil War?

The Civil War thing is a recent development. Will this remain the status quo? Will mutants be considered a part of the superhuman community and treated as such? Or, will Civil War and Initiative fade away and Marvel return to the status quo and have the public fearing and hating only mutants again? Marvel has to play up the mutant angle considering it's a money maker for the company.

My argument is that who cares how a person receives their powers, the person is super-human. Peter Parker received his powers when he was a teenager. No one knew how he got his powers and I don't remember him broadcasting it to the public. Arguably, people should have been hating him for being a mutant as much as being a menace. Speedball was called a mutant on a number of occasions and WE know he wasn't but the public didn't. And this is well before he became hated for his part in Stamford. Your average everday citizen doesn't know the difference so all should be treated the same. Civil War has finally put super-humans and mutants at the same level but I'm pretty sure it won't last. The public in the MU will remember that, "Wait we love Captain America and the FF but we hate mutants. Let's get back to that."

[colossus20]

Why you just don't read it instead?

I have. THAT is WHY I hate it. Duh.

[Nightstar1441]

Joe Quesada

[Badfish40oz]

The public in the MU will remember that, "Wait we love Captain America and the FF but we hate mutants. Let's get back to that."

Cap and the FF are individuals with powers . . mutants are like a new species almost, threatening to take over humankind. (at least in the publics view)

[Omega Alpha]

I have. THAT is WHY I hate it. Duh.

But the UU doesn't affect your reading of the 616 titles at all, unlike, let's say, meaningless deaths and cheap ressurections or time-travel making things convoluted. If you don't want to be affected by it, you have to stop reading even the titles you like. If you don't like the UU, you can just read the titles you like and it won't affect them.


Arguably, people should have been hating him for being a mutant as much as being a menace.

But that's because the main Spider-Man opponent in the media didn't tried to make him a mutant menace, he was just sold as the wallcrawling menace and that's all. Namor is a mutant, but the MU public doesn't fear him because of that, but because he invades the surface almost every day.

Cap and the FF are individuals with powers . . mutants are like a new species almost, threatening to take over humankind. (at least in the publics view)

And you don't people which got their powers by being bitter by radioactive spiders proclaming their species is completely different and superior to homo sapiens, therefore they should rule everything, like Silver Age Magneto or Apocalypse.

But now with the X-men public, the good guys on mutantkind finally have a face, unlike before when they were hidden, so anti-mutant fear shouldn't be as bad as it was.

[a-spidey]

i would erase "sins past" :D

[myslead]

Time Travel or Clones.

[Harley]

The Civil War thing is a recent development. Will this remain the status quo? Will mutants be considered a part of the superhuman community and treated as such? Or, will Civil War and Initiative fade away and Marvel return to the status quo and have the public fearing and hating only mutants again? Marvel has to play up the mutant angle considering it's a money maker for the company.

My argument is that who cares how a person receives their powers, the person is super-human. Peter Parker received his powers when he was a teenager. No one knew how he got his powers and I don't remember him broadcasting it to the public. Arguably, people should have been hating him for being a mutant as much as being a menace. Speedball was called a mutant on a number of occasions and WE know he wasn't but the public didn't. And this is well before he became hated for his part in Stamford. Your average everday citizen doesn't know the difference so all should be treated the same. Civil War has finally put super-humans and mutants at the same level but I'm pretty sure it won't last. The public in the MU will remember that, "Wait we love Captain America and the FF but we hate mutants. Let's get back to that."

Here's my take on it, and you can do with it as you will. For the most part, the group of super-humans that you're talking about, those fortunate few who didn't neccessarily receive their powers because of genetic mutation and who the public has neglected to hate until faily recently, that bunch is comprised primarily of what appear to be genuinely good people who burst into the public arena from out of nowhere! Brave, capable heroes that choose to fight crime and injustice and corruption and giant evil robots ...and they are largely lauded because of it, no matter how many Daily papers may try to smudge them and no matter how many SHRA-type laws may be passed.

Mutants, on the other hand, are extremely scary in the public's eye because they tend to appear seemingly randomly and from within the public itself! Now, suddenly, no one can be trusted if there are freaks being born among us who are only a step or two away from "evolving" powers of their own and becoming the next mutie terrorist! Police must develop some way to protect the populace from a hidden menace that has already infiltrated our community, concealing itself among the good people in our shops and neighborhoods. School teachers who are already stretched to the limit must find some way to cope with the horror of children secretly bringing weapons far more deadly than guns to school. Parents no longer even know their own children, for God's sake. That's why the public hates mutants.

And that's why most super-heroes aren't hated nearly as much as the mutants. These guys aren't banding together, proclaiming themselves as the next step of human evolution which, by the way, is just itchin' to replace us normals as the dominant species on the planet. No, they're just a couple of regular joes up in New York who stumbled onto a big ol' bunch of powers one way or another and are just trying to make a difference. Sure, some "regular" super-folk get lumped in with the big bad mutants every once in a while in the public's hyperactive sense of paranoia, but they don't represent any real drastic shift in the general public's way of life the way mutants do. That's why they get off the hook while those unlucky enough to be outed as mutants probably never will.

[MythicBrawn]

I understand the way Marvel has portrayed mutants and super-humans in its universe. I get that. The post asked what would I banish from the MU? And, IMO, I would banish the separation between mutant and non-mutant super-humans. I guess Civil War has started to level the playing field, though. At one time I used to collect everything mutant. That was back when the X-Universe only consisted of 3/4 titles and was good. To me, the whole mutant hysteria thing is just tired. But, I can't really blame Marvel. They discovered a money maker and any corporation is going to do everything in its power to milk it for all its worth.

I thought about some other things that I would banish and the constant angsting in the X-Universe needs to be gone. I guess it's not so much an issue anymore since there's only 198 mutants. Rogue is a primary candidate. How about developing her character to the point where she isn't whining about how she can't touch anybody. She started to move in that direction but then she regressed back to square one. Also, why does Wolverine need two titles? And, I would get rid of Cable. I never liked him.

[scottv]

House of M

[chrismileslord]

This is a lot harder than I thought it would be.

While, like most, I hate deaths and quick ressurections. If they die, they should stay dead for a time, but sometimes, it's okay to come back (i.e. Bucky) so that isn't mine.

I can't stand the Ultimate Universe, but I will be okay just not reading it, as long as they don't merge it, I can just act like it's not really there, and when someone talks about it, I'll just act like I have no idea what they are talking about.

Clones are pretty bad, but I can see the Thor clone going somewhere, and setting up an awesome fight between Thor, Mr. Fantastic, Hank Pym, and Iron Man, so I really can't hate that, because that could be awesome.

So, my choice, the one thing I would erase......

Shield.

As it stands currently, there hasn't been a good Shield story in God knows how long. It is a giant machine that keeps changing. Is it US based (if not, how did they President give the position to Tony Stark?) or is it U.N based? (If so, why are they supporting the SHRA?)

I guess I don't hate Shield, I hate what it is right now. It could be an awesome story machine, as it used to be (Oh, Nick Fury, how I miss you) but they need to erase it and restart it, with a hard origin and a true government setup and let it be organized.

[psm]

To me, the whole mutant hysteria thing is just tired. But, I can't really blame Marvel. They discovered a money maker and any corporation is going to do everything in its power to milk it for all its worth.

First off, beautiful post. Secondly, I agree with you on the whole mutant hysteria being somewhat tired. It was one of the reasons I stopped collecting X-men. Well, that and the stories seemed stuck in the 80's. Where we don't see eye to eye is on the reason that Marvel is keeping that theme. I think it has less to do with being a money maker and more to do with uniqueness. If you take away the idea of mutants being hated by people, the X-Men become just like every other superteam.

[Gnarl]

Pictures.

Serously.

Back to the pulps. Cheap paper, and a group of short stories at low nprices, distributed by someone else.

[Diablito]

I would banish retcons.

[Omega Alpha]

Also, why does Wolverine need two titles?

Why does Spider-Man needs ASM, FNSM, SSM, USM, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, and several minis?

[Guybrush]

Why does Spider-Man needs ASM, FNSM, SSM, USM, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, and several minis?

Mostly because you can write more then 2 type of stories about him. Oh and he actually have a supporting cast, and villains.

[Captain Mobra]

Why does Spider-Man needs ASM, FNSM, SSM, USM, Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane, and several minis?
Two are non-616, cutting "several minis" since that could mean alot of things, that narrows down to three. Spiderman is the most popular Marvel hero right now, so I'm okay with three.

[Namora]

You know just one thing, something that bugs you, like time travel, or telaportation machiens, or diffrent dimensions... like that. Me and I know this wont make me toopopular but hell I dont care, Id like to banish magic, Im bored of it, i think its an easy fix to too many things. I have never been a fan of it.

Clones. :evilangry

[Jonathan]

If you could banish one thin from the Marvel U what would it be?

1995 through 2007 (except for The Ultimates and The Ultimates 2).

'Nuff said.

[Captain Mobra]

For me? Sins Past. I know everyone knows already. . .but c'mon!

[Trey]

Clones and Time Travel are staples of fantastic fiction, esp.Time travel. Thats like saying, get rid of bases and bats for baseball.

My choice: Bendis and his smug, quipping, senseless dialog. Every character has the same voice: Either Deena Pilgram or her cop partner, what's his name.

Another choice: Decompression (because most writer's aren't good enough to use it properly)

[Retrodork]

Tony Stark being sober. I hate that guy. I would love to see him crash and burn by losing his sobriety, falling completely off the wagon and seeing him exposed for the complete war profiteering jerk that he is. That's what I'd like to see gone.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

The humiliation and death of Captain America. I don't think I've ever felt so sad and angry about things as trivial as three comics in my life (CW 7, CW:FL #12, CA #25).

I know other people have other interpretations about it, but that was a terrible moment for me.

[Brian M.]

Emma Grace Frost.

[BeastieRunner]

Joe Quesada

Amen, brother!

[kidpernicious]

I entirely agree with Mythic and it's also something I'd like to see changed. You can make all the arguments you want about why it makes sense for people to fear mutants, but the same arguments people give for why other super-humans aren't as feared and hated points to a severe lack of logic. Harley for instance brings up that a lot of superheroes appear in the public arena out of nowhere and make it apparent they're good decent people doing heroic things.

Well, yeah, and the X-Men aren't?

Every X-Team spends most of their adventuring engaging in ridiculously dangerous, extremely heroic, and often very visible acts that SAVE HUMAN LIVES. But, according to everything we've read in the history of the X-books, they're still feared and hated for being mutants (in fact it's their MO: to protect a world that fears and hates them). AND IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. We see the occasional human ally, yes, but never a significant portion of the public that visibly defends the idea of peaceful coexistence, despite ENDLESS examples of mutants being genuinely great people who are willing to lay down their lives for the sake of complete (and bigoted) strangers. And that doesn't make sense. In the modern era, where we all know logically (barring a few bass-ackwards morons) that racism, slavery, etc. are outdated retarded ideas, we're still being told that in the Marvel U, it makes sense that people gifted with powers they tirelessly employ in the service of the greater good would be so regularly victimized by a double standard that is superficially no different from hating sheriffs and loving policemen in the real world. Or fearing and hating nurses and loving and appreciating doctors for all the help they give us.

The evolution fear honestly doesn't come close to legitimizing it. Considering apparently that Americans that believe in evolution are the minority compared to Creationists, and that having that belief often coincides in a stronger tendency against things like racism, well... sorry, there's just no logic to a Marvel majority being so xenophobic to specifically mutants, based on a very unscientific notion of evolution. It's played-out, it's time for the mutants' place in the Marvel U to develop into something a little more sensible. At the very least give us a more visible voice for coexistence amongst the human population. Just like there were abolitionists, just like there were civil rights activists. Keeping the Marvel U majority so bigoted is just ridiculous.

[kidpernicious]

Apologies for the lengthy post above, and for the small bit of added whining and kvetching that follows:

I'd also get rid of writers and editors that either don't care or don't pay enough attention to what's going on in other titles.

[Melbourne Mew Mew]

The evolution fear honestly doesn't come close to legitimizing it. Considering apparently that Americans that believe in evolution are the minority compared to Creationists, and that having that belief often coincides in a stronger tendency against things like racism, well... sorry, there's just no logic to a Marvel majority being so xenophobic to specifically mutants, based on a very unscientific notion of evolution. It's played-out, it's time for the mutants' place in the Marvel U to develop into something a little more sensible. At the very least give us a more visible voice for coexistence amongst the human population. Just like there were abolitionists, just like there were civil rights activists. Keeping the Marvel U majority so bigoted is just ridiculous.

Yeah... I was talking to a friend a couple of days ago who doesn't really read many American comics at all, but he commented that, the way the general public was presented in the X-Men comics, he didn't see the point of saving them.

[Kirk G]

Zombies.... got to be Zombies. I hate the concept, ignored the mini-series, and detest that they showed up in the Ultimate Universe....
And now, surprise, Marvel's injecting them into the Black Panther....

[gravling]

Zombies.... got to be Zombies. I hate the concept, ignored the mini-series, and detest that they showed up in the Ultimate Universe....
And now, surprise, Marvel's injecting them into the Black Panther....

i agree. zombies in a limited series is one thing, but they're just milking the idea now.

[Omega Alpha]

Every X-Team spends most of their adventuring engaging in ridiculously dangerous, extremely heroic, and often very visible acts that SAVE HUMAN LIVES.

No, they are rarely visible, since for 40 years the X-men did nothing but hide, don't offer their view to the public and let people like Magneto be the face of mutantkind. The mutant heroes that went public normally were well accepted.


But, according to everything we've read in the history of the X-books, they're still feared and hated for being mutants (in fact it's their MO: to protect a world that fears and hates them). AND IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. We see the occasional human ally, yes, but never a significant portion of the public that visibly defends the idea of peaceful coexistence, despite ENDLESS examples of mutants being genuinely great people who are willing to lay down their lives for the sake of complete (and bigoted) strangers. And that doesn't make sense. In the modern era, where we all know logically (barring a few bass-ackwards morons) that racism, slavery, etc. are outdated retarded ideas, we're still being told that in the Marvel U, it makes sense that people gifted with powers they tirelessly employ in the service of the greater good would be so regularly victimized by a double standard that is superficially no different from hating sheriffs and loving policemen in the real world. Or fearing and hating nurses and loving and appreciating doctors for all the help they give us

Yes, it doesn't make sense. But racism doesn't make any sense, homophobia doesn't make any sense, anti-semitism doesn't make any sense, and so on. Yes, it would make more sense for them to accept mutants, but most people are dumb and have prejudice against an entire group (for example: islamics) because of the actions of a few. You're telling me you don't know or never heard of people who run or get scared just by seeing a muslim and someone that looks like one?


The evolution fear honestly doesn't come close to legitimizing it. Considering apparently that Americans that believe in evolution are the minority compared to Creationists, and that having that belief often coincides in a stronger tendency against things like racism, well... sorry, there's just no logic to a Marvel majority being so xenophobic to specifically mutants, based on a very unscientific notion of evolution. It's played-out, it's time for the mutants' place in the Marvel U to develop into something a little more sensible. At the very least give us a more visible voice for coexistence amongst the human population. Just like there were abolitionists, just like there were civil rights activists. Keeping the Marvel U majority so bigoted is just ridiculous.

If most Americans don't believe in evolution, that just gives them more reason to fear mutants. If they know mutants didn't gain their powers by some accident, but were born with them, and it has nothing to do with evolution, then they are just the children of Satan or something, like Stryker and company believe. I mean, you just said yourself above that most people are retarded, so they would buy this idea. That, or the just have no idea why those people got their powers, so that makes them even more scared.


Two are non-616, cutting "several minis" since that could mean alot of things, that narrows down to three. Spiderman is the most popular Marvel hero right now, so I'm okay with three.

And Wolverine is the second most popular hero at Marvel right now, so two is an absurd because...


Mostly because you can write more then 2 type of stories about him. Oh and he actually have a supporting cast, and villains.

In other words, because you like Spider-Man and doesn't like Wolverine.

[Morw]

Resurrection. You die, you stay there. Forever.

Same here. the second I would removed is the almost total lack of time in the sense of aging.

[kidpernicious]

No, they are rarely visible, since for 40 years the X-men did nothing but hide, don't offer their view to the public and let people like Magneto be the face of mutantkind. The mutant heroes that went public normally were well accepted.
Entirely not paying attention, are you? Seriously, go back and check how many public battles the collective X-Teams have fought. It's an immense number. And both public and private battles have been fairly comparable with every other major comics team. The Avengers often battle outside the public view. There's not nearly enough distinction between their visibility and the X-Men's. Let alone a team like X-Factor, who in various forms have been government sponsored (and known to the public as such). Angel was a public hero before joining the X-Men and never terribly benefited from it in regards to the bigotry he's faced as an X-Man.
Yes, it doesn't make sense. But racism doesn't make any sense, homophobia doesn't make any sense, anti-semitism doesn't make any sense, and so on. Yes, it would make more sense for them to accept mutants, but most people are dumb and have prejudice against an entire group (for example: islamics) because of the actions of a few. You're telling me you don't know or never heard of people who run or get scared just by seeing a muslim and someone that looks like one?
Utterly useless rhetoric there. Of course there are dumb, racist, prejudiced people in the real world. Of course I'm aware of it. But how long has it been since the vast MAJORITY of America was united in STRONGLY being against living peacefully side by side with one specific group? It hasn't happened in decades. Yes, there's a majority against gay marriage, but are you going to find a vast majority in support of entirely shipping gays out of the country? Separating each and every single case of homosexuality from the "normal" population? No, it's not gonna happen. Yes there are people who want that, but they're the fringe, they're the radical minority. And that's a radical MAJORITY in the Marvel U, because it's evidently what the majority want for mutants. We're to believe there are almost no sane voices in the multitude of the Marvel version of America that speak out for acceptance of mutants, but that's just not sensible. So quit trying to defend it, it doesn't make sense as it's not representative of how people REALLY ARE. Yes, racism happens, that's not an argument for why it should be realistic that racism against one particular group would be so largely popular in the Marvel U.
If most Americans don't believe in evolution, that just gives them more reason to fear mutants. If they know mutants didn't gain their powers by some accident, but were born with them, and it has nothing to do with evolution, then they are just the children of Satan or something, like Stryker and company believe. I mean, you just said yourself above that most people are retarded, so they would buy this idea. That, or the just have no idea why those people got their powers, so that makes them even more scared.
Again I don't know if you're following the comics. That's decidedly NOT the stated motivation for people to hate mutants. The stated motivation (in fact the very motivation you've stated) is more often than not that they fear for their "race" because they see mutant terrorists claiming genetic superiority, evolutionary superiority, etc. So don't try to play up both motivations, yes there is the demonic thing amongst some anti-mutant groups. But you've said it yourself, and Marvel's reinforced it: the general thrust of why the masses fear mutants is because they think mutants represent some looming genetic war. Fear of extinction. And that's dumb. And if your logic is that people may just "have no idea why those people got their powers" and that's naturally fearsome, then that should ALSO apply to any member of the Avengers whose origin isn't widely known to the public. But Spider-Man's beloved, even with Jonah's smear campaign, and previous to unmasking et al, NOBODY knew who this guy was and why he had those amazing powers, so why doesn't he constantly get harassed for being a mutant? Wouldn't some bigoted douchebag naturally assume as much?

And if you want to continue the argument that it's because he used those powers as a hero in public, just don't waste your time. Every single member of every X-affiliated team has done exactly the same, publicly engaged in heroic acts using their powers. The double standard just does not hold up to logic. If you want to continue the argument that racism and bigotry aren't logical, again just don't waste your time. Every single group in America that's victimized by racism and bigotry IS NOT VICTIMIZED BY A UNIFIED AMERICAN MAJORITY. Yes, absolutely, racism's everywhere. And maybe at the end of the day, the majority of people are racist against SOMEBODY, but I defy you to suggest that the clear majority of America has been united in the modern era in hating one specific group so vociferously as Marvel America hates mutants. Honestly I can't even think of a group that fits that bill since the Nazis. And it just plain makes sense to everyone to hate Nazis. Hating mutants? Not so much. Not without the rest of the general super-powered populace catching way more crap because of that oh-so-pervasive bigotry spilling over, and not without more vocal human voices to counterbalance it. Quit defending nonsense.

[tkitna]

Hudlin

He has proceeded to portray a favorite character of mine (Black Panther) as pompous instead of proud.

(And can we ever forget the armbar the Panther applied to the Surfer? That was great writing there.)

[MythicBrawn]

Kid P, you have totally made my points. I'm glad someone else understands what I was talking about. Additionally, the X-Men are absolutely public. When the X-Men went up against the Adversary in Dallas, Wolverine's speech went out over the airwaves for all to see. This was just before they died, were resurrected and moved to Australia. They've worked with many other teams in a public venue on numerous occasions. Ridding the world of Onslaught didn't help them publicly, but the world does know about the X-Men. I imagine there would be plenty of websites, good and bad, about them. They may have pulled back from the public eye but Cyclops wanted to increase their notoriety when the Atonishing X-Men was established.

Marvel has elevated the amount of bigotry to the point that the MU should be in the Days of Future Past. Everyone that encounters a mutant fears and hates them. Very rarely does the MU show people that even tolerate them. Anyone that does is affiliated with the X-Men is some way.

[psm]

Racism/bigotry has always been part of the shtick for the X-men. If it's removed then you make them like every other team. It would be like clearing the A-Team of the crimes they did not commit (By the way, if someone else could come up with a better example I would really appreciate it).

Now, could racism be shown a bit more logically or treated in a more adult manner? Hell yeah. Should it? That one I don't know. Admittedly, the X-men have become pretty cliche and I personally wouldn't mind it. Honestly I would love it. I can only assume that since the majority of their audience are adults that the subject matter could be handled in a complex manner without losing it's edge.

However, the racism that exists in the comic will always be greater than what exists in society because it needs to be enough to add heightened drama and provide story motivation for the opponents they fight. It's necessary for the genre. If you remove the bitter hatred of mutants, then you lose the motivations for the government, the sentinels (and sentinels are cool), the brotherhood of evil mutants, registrations acts and so on. You lose too much story logic for the big fights.

Although, I can see why some fans (myself included) would like to see a shakeup of the status quo. Unfortunately, I dont' think most long time fans like change. Plus, you would be short changing new fans who never got to experience the x-men has a hated minority.

[Lord S]

I'd get rid of the concept of the Phoenix Force being this all-powerful MU-wide entity...when it only really affects the X-verse.

[kidpernicious]

Totally with you on everything in your last post Mythic.
Racism/bigotry has always been part of the shtick for the X-men. If it's removed then you make them like every other team. It would be like clearing the A-Team of the crimes they did not commit (By the way, if someone else could come up with a better example I would really appreciate it).

Now, could racism be shown a bit more logically or treated in a more adult manner? Hell yeah. Should it? That one I don't know. Admittedly, the X-men have become pretty cliche and I personally wouldn't mind it. Honestly I would love it. I can only assume that since the majority of their audience are adults that the subject matter could be handled in a complex manner without losing it's edge.

However, the racism that exists in the comic will always be greater than what exists in society because it needs to be enough to add heightened drama and provide story motivation for the opponents they fight. It's necessary for the genre. If you remove the bitter hatred of mutants, then you lose the motivations for the government, the sentinels (and sentinels are cool), the brotherhood of evil mutants, registrations acts and so on. You lose too much story logic for the big fights.

Although, I can see why some fans (myself included) would like to see a shakeup of the status quo. Unfortunately, I dont' think most long time fans like change. Plus, you would be short changing new fans who never got to experience the x-men has a hated minority.

I see your point with all that, honestly. Again, agreeing with Mythic, I think we all understand why it's still portrayed the way it is. I just don't quite get it when so many people swallow it up as perfectly logical. I do disagree with you about all the story elements that'd disappear: I think removing the severe level of bigotry among the general populace doesn't automatically mean you have to take away the fringe. There can still totally be crazy neo-con nutjobs in the government that want to hunt down mutants and mass-produce Sentinels, and there can still be crazy genetic supremacists on the other side wanting to wipe out flatscans. For the X-Men it'd be more analogous to fighting the Klan in the modern day than in the past, when those views were far more mainstream, or fighting radical terrorists that AREN'T representative of mainstream Islam. There's plenty of crazy to go around without making everyone crazy, basically. It'd certainly change the stories you could tell, but there'd still be decent stories to tell. And yes it totally is just me getting tired with the not-so-logical cliches in the X-books. Ah well.

[JesseJay]

I'd change marvel time, not remove it, but change it. make it so that for every year real time, six monthes pass marvel time, or something. And also give a company wide continuity, help the books interlace better. let everyone know that sensational spider-man# 35 takes place before amazing spider-man #540. would that be so hard?

[DDM]

Angel was a public hero before joining the X-Men and never terribly benefited from it in regards to the bigotry he's faced as an X-Man.

Although Warren Worthington III is publicly well known due to his immense family fortune & name, his identity was secret when he was with the Original X-Men. However, in an attempt to gain favor with the public, Warren Worthington III publicly came out as a mutant during The Champions to help his team gain favor. Warren held a press conference in his red Angel costume in Los Angeles, California. From this point on, Angel is publicly known as Warren Worthington III. Warren had to hide his identity & his finances when he founded X-Factor to keep the concept successful, but this was short-lived when Mystique realized that the X-Terminators & X-Factor are the original X-Men. She revealed his identity to Trish Tilby which set things in motion for X-Factor to reveal themselves as mutants....

[Omega Alpha]

Entirely not paying attention, are you? Seriously, go back and check how many public battles the collective X-Teams have fought. It's an immense number. And both public and private battles have been fairly comparable with every other major comics team. The Avengers often battle outside the public view. There's not nearly enough distinction between their visibility and the X-Men's. Let alone a team like X-Factor, who in various forms have been government sponsored (and known to the public as such). Angel was a public hero before joining the X-Men and never terribly benefited from it in regards to the bigotry he's faced as an X-Man.

Yes, there are plenty of distinction between the X-men and other teams. The FF and the Avengers were public, had a known location, often had their real names known to the public, were always ready to do interviews, and they didn't have enemies preaching metahuman supremacy. The X-men did not but hide, not expose themselves to the public and they allowed the face of mutantkind be Magneto, which didn't do any good.

And Angel only became a public hero in Champions.


Utterly useless rhetoric there. Of course there are dumb, racist, prejudiced people in the real world. Of course I'm aware of it. But how long has it been since the vast MAJORITY of America was united in STRONGLY being against living peacefully side by side with one specific group? It hasn't happened in decades. Yes, there's a majority against gay marriage, but are you going to find a vast majority in support of entirely shipping gays out of the country? Separating each and every single case of homosexuality from the "normal" population? No, it's not gonna happen.

Are gays able to shoot beans through their eyes, control minds, manipulate the entire reality, really affect the lives of those people who at them? Are gays declaring war against straight people and actually have the power to kill all of them? And let terrorists throw other planes in buildings and certainly the anti-islamic histeria will increase a LOT.


Yes there are people who want that, but they're the fringe, they're the radical minority. And that's a radical MAJORITY in the Marvel U, because it's evidently what the majority want for mutants. We're to believe there are almost no sane voices in the multitude of the Marvel version of America that speak out for acceptance of mutants, but that's just not sensible. So quit trying to defend it, it doesn't make sense as it's not representative of how people REALLY ARE. Yes, racism happens, that's not an argument for why it should be realistic that racism against one particular group would be so largely popular in the Marvel U.

Yes, it is. First of all, because until not that long ago they were doing the exactly same things against other groups, and it isn't unlikely at all they would do the same thing again. Mankind as a whole haven't really evoluted that much. Second, you don't have blacks, gays, etc, declaring war against WASPs or straight people and proclaiming all of them should be dead. Third, you don't have anyone on Earth with the power of single-handly take over the world and begin their extermination plans. In the MU, you have Magneto, Apocalypse, Exodus, etc.




Again I don't know if you're following the comics. That's decidedly NOT the stated motivation for people to hate mutants. The stated motivation (in fact the very motivation you've stated) is more often than not that they fear for their "race" because they see mutant terrorists claiming genetic superiority, evolutionary superiority, etc. So don't try to play up both motivations, yes there is the demonic thing amongst some anti-mutant groups. But you've said it yourself, and Marvel's reinforced it: the general thrust of why the masses fear mutants is because they think mutants represent some looming genetic war. Fear of extinction. And that's dumb. And if your logic is that people may just "have no idea why those people got their powers" and that's naturally fearsome, then that should ALSO apply to any member of the Avengers whose origin isn't widely known to the public. But Spider-Man's beloved, even with Jonah's smear campaign, and previous to unmasking et al, NOBODY knew who this guy was and why he had those amazing powers, so why doesn't he constantly get harassed for being a mutant? Wouldn't some bigoted douchebag naturally assume as much?

Again, you don't have metahumans proclaming war on the rest of manking because they are superior. Regardless of they believe or not in evolution (which is more likely to be believe in the MU, i suppose), you have Magneto or Apocalypse proclaiming war on them and threatening to kill them all, and they not only do that often, but unlike Bin Laden or Saddam, they have the power to achieve their goals, and took over the world on their own.

Also, if you are on the Avengers, like you said, you probably gets a pass because you are an Avenger, quite simple. People just assume you're not one of those evil mutants, or that you are on the good guys side.



And if you want to continue the argument that it's because he used those powers as a hero in public, just don't waste your time. Every single member of every X-affiliated team has done exactly the same, publicly engaged in heroic acts using their powers. The double standard just does not hold up to logic. If you want to continue the argument that racism and bigotry aren't logical, again just don't waste your time. Every single group in America that's victimized by racism and bigotry IS NOT VICTIMIZED BY A UNIFIED AMERICAN MAJORITY. Yes, absolutely, racism's everywhere. And maybe at the end of the day, the majority of people are racist against SOMEBODY, but I defy you to suggest that the clear majority of America has been united in the modern era in hating one specific group so vociferously as Marvel America hates mutants. Honestly I can't even think of a group that fits that bill since the Nazis. And it just plain makes sense to everyone to hate Nazis. Hating mutants? Not so much. Not without the rest of the general super-powered populace catching way more crap because of that oh-so-pervasive bigotry spilling over, and not without more vocal human voices to counterbalance it. Quit defending nonsense.

I have explained everything above, and all i have to add is:

Stop acting like a jerk. I defend whatever i want, and i don't think i have to say what you can do with your opinion if you disagree with my right to do so, do i? Although, if you want, i can PM you or something, just to make sure.

[sgt pepper]

Hudlin

(And can we ever forget the armbar the Panther applied to the Surfer? That was great writing there.)

That wasn't Hudlin, was it?

[Syzygy]

Ultimate Reed Richards needing glasses: all he has to do is stretch his eyes into a new shape, and he'll have perfect vision.

Yeah, we get the idea that he's a nerd and a geek without the glasses.

[Tambourineblues]

When tons of intense, life changing stuff happens to a character over the course of years, and then in one issue everything goes completely back to normal and the next issue is a Melvin Potter story like nothing ever happened. So, yeah, I'm talking about Daredevil. It's just frustrating is all.

[Retrodork]

Well, remember those times when mutants have had popular support and positive press? How about when X-Factor fought Apocalypse in Manhattan? I believe at that point, everybody had pretty much figured out that this group was the original X-Men and they got a parade out of their victory. I don't remember the issue numbers off the top of my head without retreating to the filing cabinet, but I can clearly remember seeing Cyclops, Jean, Beast and Iceman receiving a ticker tape parade and waving to the crowds from an open convertible. Then there were those interviews with the press Strong Guy gave during the second X-Factor run. There have been some deviations out there that belie the ol' 'feared and hated' cliche every now and then. I think its more than about time Marvel expounded upon that a little more. Of course, after House of M and Civil War, who knows if that's even possible?

[Crawford]

Hmmm all good suggestions however I would banish those lil clouds that seem to cover up the nipples and hairy growlers of the nude female, I mean where do those lil clouds come from?!

EDIT: I best say the same for the male form don't want to be sexist and all that.

[StormSpider85]

M-Day

but ill be fine with it as soon as the mutants get there powers back. (which you know will happen soon, just like the whole Civil War thing will blow over with time)

[captain_unimpressive]

Joe Quesada.

[Monty_Cristo]

Hmmm all good suggestions however I would banish those lil clouds that seem to cover up the nipples and hairy growlers of the nude female, I mean where do those lil clouds come from?!

EDIT: I best say the same for the male form don't want to be sexist and all that.

my next user name shall be Harry Growler.

[kidpernicious]

Aside from the still-useless arguments in favor of that whole widespread-moronic-bigotry-plus-nearly-zero-humans-for-coexistence-plus-ludicrous-double-standard thing that I'll no longer bother responding to, I did want to point everybody who DOESN'T know Angel's history to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Worthington_III#Angel

He was a hero before he was an X-Man. And that's not just Wikipedia misinformation. Promise. http://marvel.com/universe/Archangel

(Okay, actually one more tidbit...)
Again, you don't have metahumans proclaming war on the rest of manking because they are superior.

You are quite clearly either insane, or not reading nearly enough Marvel comics.

I'm done talking about this.

[Pheonix-NoRelation]

Sins Past/Remembered.