Does death really mean anything in the Marvel Universe anymore?

[jmc247]

Watching the hoopla over caps death made me laugh a little bit. I was just pointing out the characters morning caps death that had died and come back at least twice. I mean Magneto gets his head chopped off. And, his return doesn't cause the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and the rest to bat an eye. Most likely because he like Thanos, Phoenix, and others never stays dead for any length of time.

There has to be a way to make the death of a character like Cap mean something even though everyone knows he will back.

Maybe, there should be a rule that if Marvel is going to kill off a character they have to stay dead at least five years. So Marvel editors will have to decide to allow someone like say Morrison to kill off Magneto while forcing them to think long and hard about it. How would you fix the problem?

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/familydysfunction.jpg

[StoneGold]

I'm having trouble responding to this thread without any kind of snark. Serious, you couldn't do a search for any of the billion other times this has been discussed? And when I say billions, I mean all the way back to (in the Marvel Universe) Captain America Vol. 1 #2, where the Red Skull came back to life after dying in the second issue. This was a non-issue when your grandfather was reading comics.


But gee, thanks for pointing out that dead supervillains have a tendency for coming back to life. I've never noticed that.

[Siddon]

@#$%$%^^&^&$W##$%(#@!_)* *#$

and your mother

[StoneGold]

I wasn't too blunt, was I?


Makes you wonder if the Internet existed in 1903, if when Arthur Conan Doyle brought Sherlock Holmes back from the dead, people would have been whining about him cheapening death.

[jmc247]

I wasn't too blunt, was I?


You can say whatever you want. But, if you don't want to join the discussion about how to make sure Marvel deaths don't seem worthless go to some other thread.

I am a long time Magneto fan an I must say I didn't feel anything after his 'deaths' in 2001 and 2003, because I knew he would return soon thereafter and I was right.

I mean my favorite character in Marvel died twice in 2 years and I felt nothing. That really really pissed me off.

The best way to counter this I believe is for a Marvel five year policy to be enacted. Where they have to wait at minimum five years before bringing back a character. That would cause them to think much longer and harder before killing off characters, and if I knew my favorite character would be gone a half a decade or more it would effect me much more when that character dies.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

The way I see it, death can still be a very powerful storytelling device, even if it's only temporary. A character's death can still be a catalyst for good storytelling if it's done in a proper dramatic context. For example, Jean Grey dying is probably the best thing that's happened to the X-Men, with some characters(Cyclops) being completely changed for the better. Colossus was a character that I thought was brought back pretty spectacularly, too: not only was his death(by sacrificing himself to curing the Legacy Virus) heroic, his return in Astonishing X-Men was one of the most "HOLY $#!+" moments of the series. Captain Mar-Vell is probably my ultimate example of a hero's death being meaningful. Yeah, they brought him back, but it's already been established that the Captain Mar-Vell going around is still going to die from that cancer. And Thanos's death at the end of Annihilation is just about the best moment the character's ever had.

One has to remember, there are times when some characters are truly, wholly dead. I don't see any of the mutants massacred by the Church Of Humanity coming back anytime soon. Harry Osborn, Uncle Ben, Gwen Stacy and many others are dead and their deaths are so essential to the mythos of their characters that bringing them back would destroy the characters they "belonged" to(yeah, the brought back Norman Osborn... the bastards...).

jmc247: The best way to counter this I believe is for a Marvel five year policy to be enacted. Where they have to wait at minimum five years before bringing back a character. That would cause them to think much longer and harder before killing off characters, and if I knew my favorite character would be gone a half a decade or more it would effect me much more when that character dies.

That is a VERY good idea, and we've seen what a long-term death like that works like. Colossus died for a long time, so his return in Astonishing was an awesome moment.

Oh, and for the record, I wish Jean Grey remained really, truly, completely dead. I like take-no-$#!+-Emma-Frost's-whipping-boy Cyclops more than wishy-washy-Jean-Grey's-whipping-boy Cyclops.

[a-spidey]

it really looks sometimes like a running gag when the kill anyone. It seems like the easiest way for the authors to make their story important. Sadly that they know no other ways to achieve that.

[Expletive Deleted]

All a five year rule would do is give everyone something new to complain about when it inevitably gets violated.

The "meaning" ship has sailed. Just enjoy the ride.

[rZi]

This can irritate me about Marvel too...i mean who has actualy stayed dead in the MU? Gwen stacy? no-one else springs to mind...if they bring cap back it will tarnish his death...but then again i wish they had never killed him, man im gonna miss him alot as will alot of fans...and thus they will complain...and then there will be his ressurection.

[Omega Alpha]

This can irritate me about Marvel too...i mean who has actualy stayed dead in the MU? Gwen stacy? no-one else springs to mind...if they bring cap back it will tarnish his death...but then again i wish they had never killed him, man im gonna miss him alot as will alot of fans...and thus they will complain...and then there will be his ressurection.

Uncle Ben and Kraven stayed dead too.

[Captain Smith]

Uncle Ben and Kraven - will be back. Along with Cap. Hey, Bucky - you still alive?

[Chris Lang]

it really looks sometimes like a running gag when the kill anyone.

I can see it now...

Cyclops: Omigod! You killed Jean!

Wolverine: You bastard!

[PatchMadripoor]

I think we may see a major push by Death and Thanos to reclaim those that were genuinely dead back to her domain. Otherwise what is the point, the flood gates and retcons are wide open, and new original ideas are lost to recycled nonsense.

I guess we are all becoming numb to the lack of permanence with death (villains being the exception) and expect people to come back and forth through the "twilight veil". And we loose the importance of it.

Heck, Aunt May's died 2 times already and I'm numb to her possibly dying this time around. If it happens, make it permanent.

[Den]

IMO, Death is used too causually anyway. Some writers pull such scenes off well, but I think 90% of them is just for near sighted shock value. Perhaps Marvel should have an covert "Nobody dies" rule for a year or two. They don't kill any characters. Folks could be maimed, crippled, beat the snot out of, or launched into space but no character with a name dies. Maybe then, if folks finally die again, we won't be so burnt out on it that we shrug.

[Black Atom]

Uncle Ben and Kraven - will be back. Along with Cap. Hey, Bucky - you still alive?

There's no reason to bring Kraven back,I guess, since they replaced him with his son who looks and does everything exactly like him. That should be cheating, but...eh

[Harold of the Rocks]

I'm with Stone Gold and Expletive Deleted on this one.

Putting an external "rule" like this on fiction is a bad idea. Either someone will have a really good idea for a resurrection that (if published) will violate the rule (causing fanboy 'fervor'), or the story gets axed only because of the "rule". Besides, all that will happen then is fans of a dead character will be counting the days until their character can "come back". "Only 1,048 days until Captain America returns!" -- I don't see the value in your suggestion. And it's not like this treatment of death is unique to any comic book publisher, either. So why single out Marvel?

Quite frankly I was amazed to see this near the top of 'recently posted' threads. I thought "hmmm, someone must have added a comment to a three year old thread".* Only to find it was created yesterday?

* and only three years old because I figured CBR trashes anything much older. I think there's some complaining about comic book deaths on the Rosetta Stone, in fact. ;)

[StoneGold]

You can say whatever you want. But, if you don't want to join the discussion about how to make sure Marvel deaths don't seem worthless go to some other thread.


No, see, I joined the discussion. Just because I'm not agreeing with your idea that it's a huge problem doesn't mean that I'm not in the discussion. I'm just saying it's a moot point, has been since, oh, I dunno, serialized character fiction was invented, and bringing it up now is like complaining about those darn greasers roughing up the teens at the malt shop.

[jmc247]

No, see, I joined the discussion. Just because I'm not agreeing with your idea that it's a huge problem doesn't mean that I'm not in the discussion. I'm just saying it's a moot point, has been since, oh, I dunno, serialized character fiction was invented, and bringing it up now is like complaining about those darn greasers roughing up the teens at the malt shop.


Bad writing has also been a part of storylines since fiction was invented. Since it is simply going to happen are you saying I might as well not complain about it?

Having Magneto 'die' twice in two years pissed me off. If you had something that pissed you off you wouldn't hesitate to bring it up.

I have no problem with characters dying and coming back. I do have a problem with how Marvel has been handling those two things.

[P33KAJ3W]

I have no problem with characters dying and coming back. I do have a problem with how Marvel has been handling those two things.


I agree

For Example: Magik (good) - Spider-Man (good) - Magneto (Bad) - Clint (Ok, because his Death was a throwaway, why not make his return one too)

[Cthulhudrew]

You can say whatever you want. But, if you don't want to join the discussion about how to make sure Marvel deaths don't seem worthless go to some other thread.

No, see, I joined the discussion. Just because I'm not agreeing with your idea that it's a huge problem doesn't mean that I'm not in the discussion.

From the thread Characters Only One Person Has Written Well (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=173870):

This thread isn't about concepts you don't like though. It's about characters who have only been written well under one author.


Absolutely its about concepts one doesnt like. There arent right answers for this, just opinions based on various inputs. I can say in a blanket statement that if a writer writes a smart hulk i dont think that that writer is writing hulk well.

As the guy who created this thread, no, it isn't. It's about who has been written well only by one writer. I mean sure, everyone can have an opinion. But if my opinion was that the sky is chartreuse, my opinion would be wrong.

*Insert Pot-Kettle joke here*

[StoneGold]

From the thread Characters Only One Person Has Written Well (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=173870):







*Insert Pot-Kettle joke here*
Yeah, bit of a difference here. He asked a question, does death really matter. I answer with it never mattered. I'm answering his question. Not answering a different question that was never brought up. See if you can spot the difference.


Does death matter?
No, and it never did.

What characters were only written well by one person?
Hulk, because I don't like smart hulk, and I only like the character when written by a person who only wrote smart Hulk.


I brought up a consistent line of evidence to show I wasn't talking out of my ass. The thread you're talking about me complaining about someone obviously having no idea what the hell they were talking about. I'm glad you keep my old threads on file though.

[Expletive Deleted]

If we could get back on topic . . .

[StoneGold]

Bad writing has also been a part of storylines since fiction was invented. Since it is simply going to happen are you saying I might as well not complain about it?

Having Magneto 'die' twice in two years pissed me off. If you had something that pissed you off you wouldn't hesitate to bring it up.

I have no problem with characters dying and coming back. I do have a problem with how Marvel has been handling those two things.

Yes, but bad writing /= resurrection. Bad writing is bad writing. But let's condemn an entire writing device just because it was used poorly somewhere.

I mean, hell, in the bible, you've got at least three resurrections in one book, and that's just off the top of my head. There might be more, I'm not sure. So obviously, by the time they got around to the Jesus stuff, the writers were just doing hack work and devaluing death.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

Uncle Ben and Kraven stayed dead too.

Kraven's death is, IMHO, THE best Spider-Man story I've ever read. Kraven's Last Hunt was just awesome from start to finish.

[Monty_Cristo]

Watching the hoopla over caps death made me laugh a little bit. I was just pointing out the characters morning caps death that had died and come back at least twice. I mean Magneto gets his head chopped off. And, his return doesn't cause the Avengers, Fantastic Four, and the rest to bat an eye. Most likely because he like Thanos, Phoenix, and others never stays dead for any length of time.

There has to be a way to make the death of a character like Cap mean something even though everyone knows he will back.

Maybe, there should be a rule that if Marvel is going to kill off a character they have to stay dead at least five years. So Marvel editors will have to decide to allow someone like say Morrison to kill off Magneto while forcing them to think long and hard about it. How would you fix the problem?

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f132/jmc247/familydysfunction.jpg


i don't see a problem. and i sure as hell don't want to wait 5 years to see my favorite characters again. why does a character not being dead bother you? you don't get enough death in the real world?

[Omega Alpha]

Kraven's death is, IMHO, THE best Spider-Man story I've ever read. Kraven's Last Hunt was just awesome from start to finish.

I agree. He shouldn't be brought back in anyway.

[Citannah17]

im fairly new but i would like too put my two cents in and say i personally wouldnt want any character to stay dead forever i cant see how any one would its too permanet now im not saying that they should die and be back like every issue i jus think if they do choose to kill some one have a hidden plot device to give them a good valid reason for a ressuretion if you decide in the future to bring them back

[Citizen V]

Not anymore,deaths are done so often..that there is no real meaning behind them..or for them.

[Devil_LeonX]

Does Death have any REAL EFFECT in Marvel or DC?? When Superman , Green Arrow or Hal Jordan died no one REALLY believed they were dead. Marvels sadly no different like for Magneto who was supposed to have dead when he was Xorn it was later reconned so it was anorther person. Im afraid as long as reconning , Trends and popularity are a factor no one is REALLY going to die or stay dead I personally Blame Superman!lol

[dreyson]

Comics are fantasy, not real life. the same rules shouldn't apply. Characters should be able to come back to life. it doesn't take away from their deaths.

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Morrison should of never tried to humilate and kill off Magneto for good in New X-Men #150. Worst book of the millenium. Killing a character that iconic doesn't work. It never does.

[jesse_custer]

Best death in a comic: Krypto in Superman Annual #11. Animal cruelty, brought to you by Alan Moore.

But back to the Marvel Universe. It's pointless to kill people like Magneto because a) as you said, he will definitely be brought back, and b) Magneto is one of the main reasons why X-Men is awesome. It would be better to just take him out of the story for a while (but not in the form of his clone, Joseph, ARGGGHH THAT WAS STUPID).

StoneGold, if death didn't matter at all, then Spiderman wouldn't be Spiderman. Acting like a badass doesn't make your point more valid.

[Frodo-X]

Does death really mean anything in the Marvel Universe anymore?

When done properly; Yes.

[StoneGold]

StoneGold, if death didn't matter at all, then Spiderman wouldn't be Spiderman. Acting like a badass doesn't make your point more valid.

And saying someone is acting like a badass doesn't make your point any more valid, either. Although to be honest, bringing up Spider-Man, who has suffered through a couple of false deaths of both himself and several members of his supporting case, probably isn't the best example. Pete, Aunt Man, MJ, Gwen, Norman, most of his villains, his parents, hell, even Uncle Ben have all been apparently dead and then alive at one point or another.

[Monty_Cristo]

killing a character doesn't take much imagination. in most cases, writers should be talented enough to find alternatives.

[StoneGold]

killing a character doesn't take much imagination. in most cases, writers should be talented enough to find alternatives.

I don't buy that either. Death is a valid fictional device. Been used since Gilgamesh. I don't think we can condemn the ancient Babylonians for being hack writers because they killed off Enkidu.

Death is a valid device, as is resurrection. But complaining about either's use, as if they were just created now, is silly. Because it's about whether or not the death or resurrection was well written or not.

[jesse_custer]

And saying someone is acting like a badass doesn't make your point any more valid, either.

I wasn't validating anything, just making an observation. Because you haven't made a good point.

Implying that death has never meant anything in the Marvel Universe is a statement an extremist would make, not a rational person. As I said--and it doesn't matter if Ben was brought back at any point--Spiderman wouldn't be Spiderman without Peter Parker realizing "With great power comes great responsibility." And why did he think of that? Death.

[StoneGold]

I wasn't validating anything, just making an observation. Because you haven't made a good point.

Implying that death has never meant anything in the Marvel Universe is a statement an extremist would make, not a rational person. As I said--and it doesn't matter if Ben was brought back at any point--Spiderman wouldn't be Spiderman without Peter Parker realizing "With great power comes great responsibility." And why did he think of that? Death.

Then you are completely misunderstanding my argument here. What I am saying is that death was never, ever a permanent thing. That it's merely another writing device, and not the be all and end all of characters. And that this isn't a recent thing, but something that has gone on since the invention of fiction. That it isn't important in the way we recognize death in the real world, because all it takes to resurrect a fictional character is write another story. And this is not something that happened just because Magneto was handled poorly the last couple of years.

[jesse_custer]

Well, in most cases you're right. However, I think your argument, although valid, may not address the issue of impact. That is, even though the actual death in question may not last forever, its impact indeed may have changed things forever.

I don't even know what the hell I'm talking about anymore.

[Monty_Cristo]

I don't buy that either. Death is a valid fictional device. Been used since Gilgamesh. I don't think we can condemn the ancient Babylonians for being hack writers because they killed off Enkidu.

Death is a valid device, as is resurrection. But complaining about either's use, as if they were just created now, is silly. Because it's about whether or not the death or resurrection was well written or not.

i'm still holding a grudge about Enkidu. *$%#@$! Bendis!

[Erik Lehnsherr]

Best death in a comic: Krypto in Superman Annual #11. Animal cruelty, brought to you by Alan Moore.

But back to the Marvel Universe. It's pointless to kill people like Magneto because a) as you said, he will definitely be brought back, and b) Magneto is one of the main reasons why X-Men is awesome. It would be better to just take him out of the story for a while (but not in the form of his clone, Joseph, ARGGGHH THAT WAS STUPID).

StoneGold, if death didn't matter at all, then Spiderman wouldn't be Spiderman. Acting like a badass doesn't make your point more valid.

Oh the big man on campus is about to come face to face with Beast.......

NL: To follow up on Andy's answer, "Uncanny X-Men" is dealing with the reality of the question Beast is trying to answer: What does the inevitable extinction mean to the remaining mutants and the rest of the world? It leads to some scary things and some huge characters (Magneto!) weighing in on the subject. In "X-Men," you deal with the reality of looming extinction, but the focus in this book is on events that lead directly into the big crossover.

[mgs]

one of the only ways to avoid character deaths and ressurections in comics is to generally avoid all SUPERHERO books. ;) there are other genres out there you know. ;)

[Camron Amaya]

one of the only ways to avoid character deaths and ressurections in comics is to generally avoid all SUPERHERO books. ;) there are other genres out there you know. ;)

:rolleyes:

[rerun]

It's tough. It's kind of the same thing as why they don't age- you want everyone to be able to experience the character- if Batman aged, he'd be dead by now (or in a wheelchair at the very least)- but I enjoy reading Batman so I'm glad he hasn't aged.

Same thing with "death"- if Magneto, Jean Gray, Cap, Hal, whoever stayed dead- the next generation would miss out on these great characters. Sure they could go back and read the old stuff, but I just read Secret Wars and Kree-Skrull War, and it's just so dated (you may stone me now).

However, I still think death should be "special" and not over-used. It's like over-using swearing in a movie- it might seem edgy but it gets old after a while (Good Will Hunting suffered from this IMHO). Cap's death stands for something (even though I hated Civil War), and if he's back next year it will diminish the initial death. But for me, Colossus' death was before I started reading so his comback seemed cool at the time.

[Captain Mobra]

The thing people seem to miss everytime is when writers ignore part of a characters history. Any part. I don't mind if a character comes back to life if it's believable, so that resurrection has to become part of that character and part of his history. Usually it just goes something like "Whoops I'm alive again, better ignore the death forever." Allude to the death, allude to the resurrection, learn a lesson, have people say something about how you haven't learned anything from it. SOMETHING.

[mgs]

:rolleyes:

maybe, but it's true. rationalization of how characters disappear and are constantly revived in the superhero world is an unnecessary one because as long as they are aimed at new and young readers who have not experienced characters who make money for companies, those types of comics will never truly deal with death in them.

[erik larsin]

death has no meaning in the marvel universe anymore.too many hack writers who can`t think of any new stories so they kill off the lead character and then bring them back a few months later.boring.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

death has no meaning in the marvel universe anymore.too many hack writers who can`t think of any new stories so they kill off the lead character and then bring them back a few months later.boring.

And your point is? Your subject?

Sorry dude, but right now this just sounds like a personal rant without direction. Your own personal opinion is not enough to warrant a thread.

[Sean Whitmore]

death has no meaning in the marvel universe anymore.too many hack writers who can`t think of any new stories so they kill off the lead character and then bring them back a few months later.boring.

Okay. Thank you.


SEAN

[TeamED209]

what about the killing aspect it seems like there's no longer a limit on killing on the marvel hero's x force, initiative ect not to mention all the skrulls that have been killed....

[Lester C.]

Ignore him. He's been spamming all over CBR and should get banned shortly.

[syzygy89]

death has no meaning in the marvel universe anymore.too many hack writers who can`t think of any new stories so they kill off the lead character and then bring them back a few months later.boring.
What about the death of Captain America. To me Steve Rogers' death seemed like the natural progression of the story and it does not look like he is coming back, at least not any time soon. He was killed as part of a new and interesting story, not because of a lack of stories.

Also, what deaths of characters are you talking about? Your statement was pretty general and I'm just wondering who you are talking about.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

What about the death of Captain America. To me Steve Rogers' death seemed like the natural progression of the story and it does not look like he is coming back, at least not any time soon. He was killed as part of a new and interesting story, not because of a lack of stories.

I'd totally agree with that. The story Ed Brubaker has been crafting is nothing short of brilliant. His death was handled very well in my opinion. And the waves it sent through other titles, as well as setting up some very interesting changes in Captain America, were impressive.

[Imraith Nimphais]

As one who abhors the whole "death and ressurection" (of a character), I would like to add my two pence...I agree with the above posts...CA's death and its aftermath was very well depicted and remains a shining example of how and why and when such a story should be told...however, this particular "plot device" has, within the past few years, gotten way out of hand, I feel, where charcters were killed off, their corpses buried, (ashes scattered for those who were cremated) only to return to the land of the living via some non-sensical means, all for the sake of ratings/sales. Given the import of Steve Roger's death, which said something, meant something, and had an enormous repercussion on the MU at large...how much of that story's emotional impact would still be felt were he to suddenly show up three years hence living on an island somewhere, suffering from memory loss?...think about it...yes they killed off Cap...with much thought going into the where, when, how and why of it all...but they already had someone else in mind to carry the shield (literally anf figuratively)...I always felt that the strength of CA had more to do with the "mantle" and the "ideals" of the uniform and wot it stands for rather than the person in/of themself who wore it, which makes Bucky a fitting torch bearer, imo...this is not always the case with other "deaths" in fact, it very rarely is.
I think a couple of questions (as pertains to "what happens next" specifically, other than the relevance and importance of the character now) should be asked when deciding wether or not to kill off any character 1: How important would he/she have been to future of the franchise, in terms of usage, popularity and creative story-telling. 2: Is there someone who can aptly fill that person's shoes (as desired...if said dead character was an important part of the mythos)...if the answers were "very" and "no" respectively, DO NOT kill off the character with ensuing funeral service, burial, weeping and wailing etc., find some other (sensible) means of removing him/her from the current timeline so that we, the readers, know that they will eventually return in a timely and completely plausible manner, someday (go ahead, make them amnesiac and stick them on a deserted island somewhere, send them off to another country, planet, galaxy, dimesion, wot-ever)...my point is this..."Death of a character" stories should be told because they suit a specific purpose(s), because they drive the story along in a meaningful way and not for "sensationlist" "shock" "monetary" values, as these would only serve to demean the character and trivialise the "event" once the character suddenly returns as if my "magic", from the dead...*I'm looking at you X-people*...there, I've said my piece.

[celticguy]

Death of Captain Marvel

[The Black Guardian]

The real problem is that life has no meaning in comics anymore.

[Nerdpool]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

Captain America DIED?!

[CyberHubbs]

Whoa, whoa, whoa....

Captain America DIED?!

He got into a knife-fight with John McCain. The poor bastard.

[Nerdpool]

He got into a knife-fight with John McCain. The poor bastard.

lol... thanks. That was awesome. :smile:

[Ex_]

To try and add something to this dying thread, I'll admit that I was kinda pissed at the Hawkeye resurrection. I really like Hawkeye/Ronin, but I thought it was weak as hell that he came back.

Thank God Steve "I'm an idiot" Rogers is staying dead, and in hell, where he belongs.