Let's You and Him Fight!

[Cei-U!]

Over on the Comm board, I made the following statement:

DC and Marvel have *maybe* ten characters/concepts each that are strong enough to survive on their own without the crutch of 40+ years of continuity to prop them up.

Do you agree, in whole or in part, with this? If you do, which characters do you think are strong enough conceptually to survive if all their ties to their parent universe were severed?

Cei-U!
Just felt like stirrin' up trouble! :D

[MDG]

Do you mean within comics/comic fans or the public in general? Either way, I think you're right. I don't know that continuity necessarily props them up--I think the earliest characters out of the box--superman, batman, joker, FF, Spiderman, hulk--have enough "primal elements" that they are pretty easily understood, and can be springboards for new stories. As the universes expand, the new characters often aren't distinctive enough.

I think this goes for mega-teams like the Legion or X-Men. "Superpowered teenagers in the future" and "Mutant misfits" are much, much stronger concepts than any individual members.

Once you get out of the comics world, it's even more narrow. The movie-going public seems quite satisfied with two superhero movies a year without clamoring for more. And I bet half the people who saw the x-men movies who didn't know the comics couldn't tell you what many of the characters powers are precisely.

MDG

[gentlesatirist]

...and the # might be less than 10.

Meaning how many characters are well known enough to the general public to continue in some way (i.e. licensing) without any new or monthly comics whatsoever.


DC's got the Big 3, plus maybe Robin, maybe Flash makes the list, maybe Aquaman. The Brabara Gordon Batgirl might make it also. It's unfathomable to me how DC has kept that character in a wheelchair as Oracles for more than 10 years, regardless of how great the character is. They still use the image in various places and have done animated versions of her regardless.


- FE

[shaxper]

Superman
Batman
Robin
Wonder Woman
Spider-Man
Wolverine
X-Men
Incredible Hulk
Captain America

And I'm not even saying there's anything particularly amazing about any of these concepts, but rather that they are household names. If some new company bought them out tomorrow and started from scratch, people would still give them a try.

[prince hal]

Superman, certainly, as he is the comic archetype derived from the superhuman types of mythology, like Hercules, Achilles, Samson.

Batman, the "brains over brawn" hero with a secret identity: David, Odysseus.

Wonder Woman, the female archetype.

I'm tempted to say that all the others in the DC pantheon are derivative of these three: Green Arrow is a Batman knockoff; Aquaman is Superman in the water; Flash has one of Superman's powers, Hawkman another; Martian Manhunter is a green-skinned Superman; the Atom is David, ergo a Batman-type; Green Lantern (the Hal Jordan version, anyway) is essentially Superman, too.

The Spirit (I'll toss him in here b/c DC publishes him now) is Sir Galahad, the funny-book version of Raymond Chandler's knight of the meann streets. I guess you could argue he's Batman, too, but since he lacks a union suit, he seems to be a bit more of an original.

As for Marvel, I'd say the FF correspond to the Knights of the Round Table and the Argonauts, the brotherhood of do-gooders in league against injustice. Given that the JSA preceded them by a good 20 years, I might even give the nod to the latter.

The Hulk: the id monster, Frankenstein's creature...pretty basic; he gets on the archetype bus. DC has no analogous character, though Solomon Grundy is a precursor of the Hulk.

Iron Man, Thor, Spider-Man, Namor, Human Torch: Supermen.

Daredevil: Batman.

Cap: maybe here we have the national or cultural epic hero, the character whoo is the epitome of his homeland: Beowulf, Roland, Aeneas, Odysseus, Siegfried. I think I'd throw him in there, too.

Dr. Strange is in the tradition of the mage, the sorcerer, like Merlin. A type of character familiar to all of us from childhood, like all archetypes. He makes it, too. I'd probably give him pre-eminence over Zatara, who seems more in the tradition of stage magicians like Houdini and Blackstone.

[Chris N]

Clearly Batman and Superman are both iconic characters that work in a wide variety of situations.

But really it's Marvel I know better. So I'll focus there

To me, Spider-Man doesn't work as well as an icon, but he is a strong character with a very good story. However, it's a story that's been told. And is long over even though it never reached an ending. He worked because he was learning and growing. When he stopped growing, he stopped working.

Captain America as a concept probably has enough possibilities, as he's the symbol of America and can be redesigned to fit with changes in America.

Fantastic Four and Dr. Strange seem like endless founts of stories as they're about exploring strange worlds, but it's difficult to utilise without true creativitity at the helm, like with Kirby or Ditko. But I think the characters and concepts are strong.

Daredevil I'm not sure I see, though I think he's been written quite in the past. The blindness seems like a gimmick rather than real concept. But Miller described him well in Man Without Fear, that he should have been a villain, given his past. I'm on the fence.

X-Men is a great concept and there's plenty of potential there. It would even be best if everything were thrown away, even the characters. The idea of a turning point in our evolutionary history, ideas of change fear, outcasts attempting to survive, attempting to be heroes and fight for a dream but not knowing how, I think can stand on its own if stripped of everything.

Hulk, about a man struggling to control the monster within, is a basic enough concept to work. Wolverine is similar but maybe just different enough.

I think Silver Surfer is also a great character, about a wanderer trying to find his place in the universe, exiled from home. Warlock has that vibe too. He's different because he never had a home.

I have a soft spot for questions about magic and science, and where the line is and how they can and should interact, which makes me interested in characters like Black Knight who walk that line.

Iron Man's inherent strength somebody will have to explain to me.

Same for Black Panther.

Inhumans is also a great concept, but I'm partial to science fiction stories about different societies and how the function. Thus I like Nocenti's or Jenkin's treatment of them, and I think they work well as a concept and that there's room for more stories.

Nick Fury's just cool.

The android trying to understand humanity will always appeal to me as well. So there's Vision.

I must have past 10 right? Maybe not. Can't count. '60s Marvel had almost nothing but great ideas (Ant Man, Iron Man, Daredevil are the most questionable to me, but Miller did great things with DD), but there's only about 12 or so comics there right? Any ideas Marvel came up with since 1970 are probably less impressive.

Though Human Fly is possibly the greatest story ever, but it's not really original and they probably don't have the rights anyway...

[scratchie]

To me, Spider-Man doesn't work as well as an icon, but he is a strong character with a very good story. However, it's a story that's been told. And is long over even though it never reached an ending. He worked because he was learning and growing. When he stopped growing, he stopped working.I started -- and abandoned -- a long post last night, the gist of which is that most of Marvel's characters are the opposite of archetypes (whatever that's called). They're defined by their one "schtick" rather than being a "universal warrior" the way someone like Superman, Hawkman or Green Lantern is.

In Spider-Man, I think Stan Lee and Steve Ditko found the perfect blend between "superman" and "just human". Spidey has super-strength, but he's not TOO strong. He has a way of getting around quickly (at least in Manhattan!) but he can't fly. He's powerful enough to fight a fascinating array of super-powered bad guys, but he keeps bumping up against his own limitations anyway.

It's really a great blend, and I realize now that it's pretty rare in comics, which probably helps Spidey maintain his interest through the years.

[DarthAstuart]

I actually think I totally disagree. :D

If you boil any of the superhero concepts at the Big Two down to their essence, a good writer could take that concept and turn it into a great movie, TV show, rock opera, whatever.

A few examples:

Booster Gold=Sellout superhero
Dial H for Hero=Kid finds magic phone that turns him into superheroes

I could go on and on here! But I'm at work and should, y'know, actually WORK.

My point is that from a sheer storytelling standpoint, the DC and Marvel universes are absolutely bottomless gold mines full of concepts to be unearthed and transformed into viable mainstream properties.

Now if you're talking about public recognition of heroes at this stage, then I agree--you don't get much deeper than the top characters at each company.

[Reptisaurus!]

Spider-man
Sugar and Spike

I get two. :)

[MWGallaher]

Over on the Comm board, I made the following statement:

DC and Marvel have *maybe* ten characters/concepts each that are strong enough to survive on their own without the crutch of 40+ years of continuity to prop them up.


Do you agree, in whole or in part, with this? If you do, which characters do you think are strong enough conceptually to survive if all their ties to their parent universe were severed?

Cei-U!
Just felt like stirrin' up trouble! :D

I've been struggling for days to figure out exactly what you meant. I think a lot of characters could survive cutting all ties to their parent universe; that is, never meeting or referring to or fighting or joining a team with any characters from another series. I think few--maybe not even 10 each--could survive scrapping their own 40+ years of continuity. Batman certainly couldn't, for example. If everything that's been added to the original concept--Robin, the Joker, Catwoman, Alfred, the Batcave, the Batmobile, the origin, even!--were no longer available to be mined, you'd be left with a pretty flimsy character. I'm not even sure Superman could survive--even if you allowed him to keep his full, later power set--if he didn't have the Krypton mythology, the established villains, the supporting cast.
But I'll toss out a few characters that I think could work in isolation from both the parent universe and without the later build-up in mythology:
DC:
Deadman
Green Lantern (either of the first two)
The Atom
Kamandi
The Flash (either of the first two)
Manhunter from Mars
Plastic Man
Swamp Thing
Marvel:
Iron Man
Ghost Rider
The Hulk
Gi/ant-Man (may be cheating to include the Gi- version, though)
The Human Torch
Dr. Strange
Captain America

[spoon_jenkins]

I actually think I totally disagree. :D

If you boil any of the superhero concepts at the Big Two down to their essence, a good writer could take that concept and turn it into a great movie, TV show, rock opera, whatever.

A few examples:

Booster Gold=Sellout superhero
Dial H for Hero=Kid finds magic phone that turns him into superheroes

I could go on and on here! But I'm at work and should, y'know, actually WORK.

My point is that from a sheer storytelling standpoint, the DC and Marvel universes are absolutely bottomless gold mines full of concepts to be unearthed and transformed into viable mainstream properties.
Yeah, I'm on board with this.

I think adaptations of characters in other media are proof of their viability. After all, movie and TV adaptations of the Marvel and DC characters often detach characters from their continuity/universe.

[Gingold]

Obviously there are some concepts like Justice League or Avengers that need the "shared universe" model to exist, so they're off the list. The big three heroes- Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man -don't need the continuity- one could probably argue they'd be better off without it. X-men and Legion of Superheroes arguably worked better when it seemed like they were isolated from the parent universes. Captain Marvel and Plastic Man have suffered since being shoehorned into other characters' continuity, and would probably work better on their own. Other than that? While it's a great and strong concept, the Fantastic Four works best as a vehicle to explore the Marvel Universe, so it'd be pretty tought to divorce it from the whole. The B-Lis DC guys like Flash, Green Lantern and Hawkman are more interesting as players in a larger DC Universe than they are on their own. Ditto for Hulk, Iron Man and Captain America.

[fly on the wall]

Haywire from the Squadron Supreme. He was able to stop Whizzer in his tracks. Sounds like a stand-up stand-alone guy to me.