The ambiguous role of France

[Thorlief]

one thing has always bugged me since the Liberators showed up. Why is France a member of the axis of evil? I mean, they gave the EU Hugo Etherlinck (aka Captain France) and then they gave the Liberators the Multiple man, hosted their convention and basically supported their action..that's confusing. I don't think the French should be depicted as "evil"..well, not in that way heh. Anyone got a opinion/explanation ?

[gorthon616]

I don't think there was any indication that the French government was involved (at least directly) with the Liberators (or at least from my memory, it's been quite awhile) just that the little meeting thing was in France and some French guy was in on it.

[Rob on the Job]

... Why is France a member of the axis of evil? ...

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/J/U/french_knife2.jpg


"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?"
Dennis Miller

[The Mirrorball Man]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/J/U/french_knife2.jpg


"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?"
Dennis Miller

This really has to stop.

[Willowhugger]

Yes, Captain America 616 pointed out that Charles DeGaul and his company were pretty brutal fighters. We can only hope that Americans would give the same sort of resistance. That's not even counting the communist resistance.

On a related note, I think France's membership in the Axis of Evil is they may have wanted to give the United States a bloody nose but not see the entire country CONQUERED.

That's assuming this isn't the work of terrorists under the command of Ultimate Red Skull or Loki THINKING they have the approval of their government. Which would be awesome.

Everyone just finds out they've been played for enormous fools.

[Brian M.]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/J/U/french_knife2.jpg


"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?"
Dennis Miller

I love it. That's awesome.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well, setting aside my hatred of the pathetic Anti-French bias in the United States today, especially considering the tremendous debts owed to that country BY America, it's disparate French elements which is really not all that unlikely, Remmeber, France is among the most vocal worldwide opponents of America's.... well, I guess we can call it "Foreign Policy" in lieu of a more accurate phrase though "Thuggish bullying" would probably suffice. I can easily see that there would be radical French elements who would collaborate in a scheme to bring down America.

[Rob on the Job]

This really has to stop.

Why do you hate free speech so much?

[Rob on the Job]

Yes, Captain America 616 pointed out that Charles DeGaul and his company were pretty brutal fighters. We can only hope that Americans would give the same sort of resistance. That's not even counting the communist resistance. ....

I bet you admire the heck out of what the French did in Algeria.

[Rob on the Job]

I love it. That's awesome.

Merci beaucoup, mon ami.

[Magneto Rocks]

I bet you admire the heck out of what the French did in Algeria.

So just because you can admire how hard and well some of the bravest men of World War II fought, it means you automatically condone everything that country has ever done? Does that mean critics of the war in Iraq automatically support Nazi Germany in World War II?

[myslead]

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/J/U/french_knife2.jpg


"What do you expect from a culture and a nation that exerted more of its national will fighting against DisneyWorld and Big Macs than the Nazis?"
Dennis Miller

dude that's hilarious!

[Rob on the Job]

So just because you can admire how hard and well some of the bravest men of World War II fought, it means you automatically condone everything that country has ever done? Does that mean critics of the war in Iraq automatically support Nazi Germany in World War II?

Many of the same men who fought the Nazis in WWII were instrumental in the Algerian slightly more than a decade later.

[Arilou]

Why do you hate free speech so much?

Saying that something should not have been said is not the smae thing as saying something should be banned.

Strawman 1: Rob: 0


I bet you admire the heck out of what the French did in Algeria.

You do know DeGaulle was the guy who pulled *out* of Algeria, right?

Strawman 2: Rob 0.

Sheesh, these strawmen just keeps racking up the frags....

Remember, France lost more men in World War I alone than the US has lost in every war in it's history. (And that's counting both confederate and union dead in the Civil War)

[Willowhugger]

I bet you admire the heck out of what the French did in Algeria.

You've mastered the non-sequitor and irrelevant aside haven't you?

In any case, I think its unlikely this thread is going to get back on topic. Which is, of course, why the Hell one of the United States allies (France) is attacking along with two countries that have only semi-hostility to it but also great economic need for it to remain stable (Russia, China)

[Brian M.]

Well, setting aside my hatred of the pathetic Anti-French bias in the United States today, especially considering the tremendous debts owed to that country BY America, it's disparate French elements which is really not all that unlikely, Remmeber, France is among the most vocal worldwide opponents of America's.... well, I guess we can call it "Foreign Policy" in lieu of a more accurate phrase though "Thuggish bullying" would probably suffice. I can easily see that there would be radical French elements who would collaborate in a scheme to bring down America.

Funny how all the good we did after World War II to help build back up Europe is just forgotten. The French seem to quite ungrateful.

[Willowhugger]

Funny how all the good we did after World War II to help build back up Europe is just forgotten. The French seem to quite ungrateful.

Well to be fair, the United States hasn't exactly got a great track record for remembering allies in other countries itself. A debt from sixty years ago is a debt.

The irony is, do we now owe all the countries of the Union for their aid from this point on?

[carabas]

Funny how all the good we did after World War II to help build back up Europe is just forgotten. The French seem to quite ungrateful.

Any and all credit gained from that was spent about at least decade ago.
America doesn't get an eternal free pass just because once upon a long ago it did something decent.

[The Mirrorball Man]

Why do you hate free speech so much?

I'm a big ball of hate, I can't help it.

[Joe Acro]

Perhaps France is acting on fear. The U.S. has these superheroes with this wide range of powers. They also have better technology than the rest of the world (or so it seems) and hold a supply of nuclear missiles. These French supported may have felt fearful of that much power and wished to counteract it, if only with subtlety.

[Rob on the Job]

I'm a big ball of hate, I can't help it.

Whew! I was afraid you were dangerous or somethin'!

Glad to know ya, brother!

http://www.thehollywoodgossip.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/rosie-odonnell-hater.jpg

[Thorlief]

Perhaps France is acting on fear. The U.S. has these superheroes with this wide range of powers. They also have better technology than the rest of the world (or so it seems) and hold a supply of nuclear missiles. These French supported may have felt fearful of that much power and wished to counteract it, if only with subtlety.

that could be the reason but then why didnt Italy, Spain, Finland, Greece ( we can easily recognize their flags from their uniforms) act the same way? The cause might be the war in Iraq, but then, Millar has been really ambiguous about it

[Neptunicus]

Weren't there several references to the USA using P(eople of)M(ass)D(estruction) in other countries illegally? My assumption is that this was a lampoon by Millar of the USA military adventures under the same pretext. A coalition of other like minded countries obstesibly worried about American Empirialism and PMD's. Of course they are being manipulated and lied to via Loki the entire time but this kind of fits into the allusion...at any rate when looked at in this light Frances participation makes more sense.

Edit - Plus if you read any of Millars forums you would know that he enjoys making fun of the French and calling them smelly - in my mind that as much as anything played a role in him making them one of the bad guys. And for what it's worth it sounds like he just visited France for the first time recently (not that I'm a fanboy but I check the forum on occassion to see if Ultimates #13 will ever see the light of day. And as an aside his posts -if anything - have made me less of a fan. He can be very smarmy and comes off as pompous....although humorous).

[Joe Acro]

that could be the reason but then why didnt Italy, Spain, Finland, Greece ( we can easily recognize their flags from their uniforms) act the same way? The cause might be the war in Iraq, but then, Millar has been really ambiguous about itAre Finland and Greece world superpowers? Whatever the case, they might still be providing a small amount of funding. As for Italy, it doesn't have the stablest of governments. Even so, it and Spain my both be helping fund it, but don't want to get their hands dirty for their own reasons.

Why France instead of one of those countries? I have no idea.

[gorthon616]

I think you guys are making too much of this:
A) There is a generic sense of animosity between America and France.
B) France at the time was very vocal about it's disapproval of America's actions.
C) French have (at last from a longer historical sense) always been a very strong proponent of freedom over all other values and rebellion which make it the more obvious pick to be the philosophical core of the group.
D) Putting a "good" country like France on the team aids to a sense of legitimacy to the action going to the creation of a morally ambiguous situation.
E) Putting a "bad" country like France on the team would be a good joke to people who dislike France and would go "well, obviously they're EVIL, duh."
F) Putting a mixture of more clearly problematic countries and less clearly problematic countries increases the level of argument since some people would think that it's right and some people would think that that's wrong.

So yeah....

[myslead]

you also have to remember that ultimate 12 came out almost twenty years ago.

[Sparda]

My memory's fuzzy on this but one of the books explained that it's a French "group" that hates and resent's the US, acting on thier own from the government. It's a small radical's of french, as well as the commies from Russia as another group that hates the US for thier country becoming free, and china.....I think the government is in on the cake in this one.

[Thorlief]

My memory's fuzzy on this but one of the books explained that it's a French "group" that hates and resent's the US, acting on thier own from the government. It's a small radical's of french, as well as the commies from Russia as another group that hates the US for thier country becoming free, and china.....I think the government is in on the cake in this one.


Id lov to read that quote man, that would clear things up. If you remember what issue its in..

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Funny how all the good we did after World War II to help build back up Europe is just forgotten. The French seem to quite ungrateful.

Well considering they helped us in our revolution and we sort of screwed them over during theirs its not like this is something specifically limited to france

That being said, I dont see how France could be anti superhuman


I mean, Alizee clearly is superhuman

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/TheHuzzah/alizee-545149.gif

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BHgZRBrWZ8c

[Magneto Rocks]

Well considering they helped us in our revolution and we sort of screwed them over during theirs its not like this is something specifically limited to france



If by "helped you" in your revolution, you mean "Actually had more troops at the decisive battle than there were enemies", then yes ;) Without France it's difficult to say if America could have won in the Revolution at all. As opposed to World War II, where the Allies certainly would have won without America but at a TREMENDOUSly greater cost. And then there was America screwing over France when they made a deal with them in the Napoleonic Wars which they broke immediately when they saw an oppurtunity to do so.

Really, if anything America owe more to France than France do to America yet there is still a disgusting anti-French bias in America today.

[gorthon616]

If by "helped you" in your revolution, you mean "Actually had more troops at the decisive battle than there were enemies", then yes ;) Without France it's difficult to say if America could have won in the Revolution at all. As opposed to World War II, where the Allies certainly would have won without America but at a TREMENDOUSly greater cost. And then there was America screwing over France when they made a deal with them in the Napoleonic Wars which they broke immediately when they saw an oppurtunity to do so.

Really, if anything America owe more to France than France do to America yet there is still a disgusting anti-French bias in America today.

Saying that you have to love France for what they did in the American Revolution is like saying that you have to hate Germany and Japan for what they did in WWII. The fact of the matter is, this isn't about what they DID, it's about what they ARE. France doesn't owe us an opinion one way or the other about what we did in WWII, and we don't owe them an opinion one way or another about what they did in the American Revolution or Napoleonic what-freakin'-ever.

There's no "anti-French bias" in America anymore than there is an "anti-American bias" in France. There's just people making assessments about the actions/cultures of another and voicing those opinions. The fact that it doesn't result in "We are all great! Let's hug!" is simply the result of different people and different points of view arriving (quite naturally) at different conclusions.

[Thorlief]

Alizee clearly is superhuman

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g75/TheHuzzah/alizee-545149.gif

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BHgZRBrWZ8c


holy freaking lord..I don't happen to like her face that much but that gif is going to give me a HUGE boner

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Her face is great. Go google. Watch the video. Etc.

[Sparda]

Id lov to read that quote man, that would clear things up. If you remember what issue its in..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberators_(comics)


The Liberators are a superhuman task force from a coalition of nations opposed to the United States' foreign policy. This coalition is made up of China, Syria, North Korea, Iran, and rogue elements of the French and Russian governments. The Liberators and their overseers are an opposing counterpart to the Ultimates and S.H.I.E.L.D., respectively.

Ok I've re-read the Ultimates and I haven't found at all about talking "rogues" from Russia and France and must have confused it with the wiki profile it had. I can't be 100% sure or accurate if the French side was rogue or not but I'm sure Russia was pretty much rogue (it's an assumption from my part though considering it's communist but thier not in charge of the country and wants to bring back "Mother Russia" back to glory).

I'm sure on the next issue, it will be clarified for sure if it's rogue or not.

Btw, very cute french girl in that animated gif. Would like to go there myself one day. I'll admit, I laugh at the french jokes but don't personally think that there such giver uper's like some would like to make it seem. If they were than I guess the French resistence would'nt have raised hell from the Nazi's. The french just wanted to save thier own civilians when the germans came and really they would have lost even if they resisted. To me that's not cowardice, I see it as a way of protecting your own citizens. But French in general sure went all French Resistence since the citizens hated the idea.

[Thorlief]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberators_(comics)



Ok I've re-read the Ultimates and I haven't found at all about talking "rogues" from Russia and France and must have confused it with the wiki profile it had. I can't be 100% sure or accurate if the French side was rogue or not but I'm sure Russia was pretty much rogue (it's an assumption from my part though considering it's communist but thier not in charge of the country and wants to bring back "Mother Russia" back to glory).

I'm sure on the next issue, it will be clarified for sure if it's rogue or not.


I hope so, Millar has been really ambiguous about it. I mean, I'm starting to think he put France in on purpose, to generate some chaotic talkback...we all can figure why Russia or Corea are in, but France? Because they were against the war in Iraq? It'd be a lil bit of a extreme reaction to decide to invade America just because they don't agree.
To me, the only "justified" Liberator is Colonel Rahman. He watched his country being invaded and occupied, and he saw Captain America leading the invasors-hence his hatred for him- (not that I'm justifying what he's done..the death of innocents is ALWAYS the worst thing, Americans, Iraqi or other) but on the other hand, you really cant blame him if he's a bit full of rage

[desanth]

I see french jokes not something specificly against french people, its more like a joke about cowardice which events in the past lay it best represented by frenchies. Its like polish people and stupid jokes, or mexicans and etc.
That said, those were some funny frenchie jokes. :p

I think Millar is giving France some credit, in Ultimates v1, Cap made the France joke, but it seems France gots a pair since they were in on this little invasion. Like someone said earlier, its kinda challenging your perception of good vs evil, are the Liberators evil, I mean the Ultimates went into other countries for WMD, why can't they go into the US and do the same?
So is France evil? Eh, who knows.

[Sparda]

I hope so, Millar has been really ambiguous about it. I mean, I'm starting to think he put France in on purpose, to generate some chaotic talkback...we all can figure why Russia or Corea are in, but France? Because they were against the war in Iraq? It'd be a lil bit of a extreme reaction to decide to invade America just because they don't agree.
To me, the only "justified" Liberator is Colonel Rahman. He watched his country being invaded and occupied, and he saw Captain America leading the invasors-hence his hatred for him- (not that I'm justifying what he's done..the death of innocents is ALWAYS the worst thing, Americans, Iraqi or other) but on the other hand, you really cant blame him if he's a bit full of rage
I agree, Rahman is the only one I feel symathetic for while at the same time I hate the guy. Miller has left us all in the loop on this and the only way to find out is after the issue ends, we get an epilogue on the matter. I still want to see soviet thor get smacked by someone all American, but I'll settle with Thor doing the job.

I find it a bit stupid to add the french part at all though, may it be rogue group or not. I've never heard of a French group wanting to take down America or anything or resentments up to the level of wanting to de-throw America.