Is Captain America still relevant?

[blackdragon6]

after reading the Are there any likable heroes in the MU? thread.i was wondering Is captain America REALLY out of touch with the current America? is he really that out of touch with todays society.or is it the other way around and America is out of touch?

[Crimson]

I think Steve Rogers is out of touch, I mean how often do we see Steve doing stuff outside of being a superhero? It's pretty rare.

Captain America isn't, that's an ideal that will stand forever.

Don't get me wrong, Steve Rogers being out of touch and no relevant with the society has been part of the character since his return. It's not a bad thing.

[Canemacar]

http://mightygodking.livejournal.com/300945.html

[Dusty.]

When I think of people who are clueless and out of touch, I think of the Mark Millars of the world, not somebody like Captain America.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

although i sided with cap, i still never really liked the character.i just thought the ideas surrounding the character don't fit a post 60's america (especially a post 9/11 america which is what i *think* civil war was trying to prove).his ideas are kinda too whitebred for liberals and too liberal for neocons.

[Christopher O]

When I think of people who are clueless and out of touch, I think of the Mark Millars of the world, not somebody like Captain America.

I find humor in this.

[jadrax]

after reading the Are there any likable heroes in the MU? thread.i was wondering Is captain America REALLY out of touch with the current America? is he really that out of touch with todays society.or is it the other way around and America is out of touch?

I think he was in touch with people like me, who are out of touch with the horror known as modern life.

[cernunnos]

I think America is out of touch with Captain America and what he stood for and has been that way well before Simon and Kirby created him.:( :(

[Black Atom]

As others have said, it's America that has strayed from it's core ideals, such as liberty and justice, not Captain America (how closely a country built on slave labor held those ideals to heart to begin with is probably a conversation for another thread). What he represents is still totally relevant, I'd like to think.

[Young Avenger]

When I think of people who are clueless and out of touch, I think of the Mark Millars of the world, not somebody like Captain America.

That made me laugh.

[MichaelMogg]

This was talked about when the first images were released of the Punisher as Captain America. Lots of people believe the post 9/11 war is one of vengeance (Punisher) as opposed to WWII, which was about freedom (Steve Rogers aka Capt. A.). There can never be a definitive answer, since America is more divided today than ever before, but certainly it puts question marks all over his [Roger's incarnation of CA] applicability.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Personally, I'm a DC reader at heart (though I read comics from both companies), so I'm on the side that although he was out of touch (and has been since he escaped from his ice prison), the values that he preached are very relevant and shouldn't be disregarded.

After the end of CW and the death of Cap, I've felt (and still feeling) like that last piece of true, iconic heroism has been destroyed. That last sense of warm hearted escapism and that one hero that I could truly look up to and try to follow the ideals of has been snatched from Marvel 616 continuity, and it sucks.

I don't care if he's relevant or not cause he's was and always will be to me. It's terrible that Marvel no longer feels this way.

[Kirk G]

I think a character is only as good as it's creators and publisher treat them.
That is, when the publisher allows or hires creators who misunderstand or disrespect the character, they become trivialized.... and then it becomes a self-fullfilling prophesy.
If you hold the character in high regard, treat them and write them with respect, the readers have no choice but to follow suit...cause that's what they've seen of the character...

[Economist]

This was talked about when the first images were released of the Punisher as Captain America. Lots of people believe the post 9/11 war is one of vengeance (Punisher) as opposed to WWII, which was about freedom

Yeah, because Afganistan really wasn't one of the most oppressive places in the world, that was all just Bush propaganda. And the US entered WW2 after a thing called Peral Harbor.

[MichaelMogg]

Yeah, because Afganistan really wasn't one of the most oppressive places in the world, that was all just Bush propaganda. And the US entered WW2 after a thing called Peral Harbor.

WWII was against the nations of Japan and Germany: the aggressors. Once the war was won, the threat ceased. The "war on terror" hasn't a nation, hence terrorists. It hasn't been won, and cannot be won. America won in Afghanistan, and arguably in Iraq, but terrorism is still thriving.

Also, you have crap like Abu Ghraib tainting our perception/support for the forces fighting the war. It doesn't matter what happened in Abu Ghraib before the coalition forces took it over. You cannot justify dirty deeds by dirtier deeds. Indeed, Frank Castle was in that prison, not Steve Rogers.

[Powerboy]

after reading the Are there any likable heroes in the MU? thread.i was wondering Is captain America REALLY out of touch with the current America? is he really that out of touch with todays society.or is it the other way around and America is out of touch?

I brought up a very similar thread in a Superman forum. I think some people see Captain America as representing an outdated America that doesn't exist anymore and, in their minds, maybe never did.

We can throw around words like Truth and Justice and Freedom and even terms like The American Way. But those are like saying "Progress". But as Doctor Who once said, "Progress? Well, the problem is "Progress" is one of those words that can mean whatever you want it to mean. For instance, right now, it means its okay to steal people's land and anyone against that is against progress."

Truth- We are in a war for oil.

Justice- How can you be against gay rights and be for Justice? Its a contradiction in terms.

Truth- We are in a war against terrorism.

Justice- We should live and let live but we should not specifically legalize immoral behavior.

Disclaimer: I think it is completey a war for oil and political advantage and I am for gay rights. But the point is that we live in an America where social issues of this magnitude are discussed.

When Captain America started, he could represent the American Ideal without ever discussing what those ideals were or mentioning that there might be any disagreement about what was right or wrong in any given situation.

That just doesn't cut it now. But you can't have him take a stand on anything specific because as soon as he does, no matter what his view is, half the readers will say, "That's not the American Ideal and Cap would never have that point of view."

I don't think he is irrelevant. I think he is an inspiration. Now that can backfire. People can be bigoted or self-serving and hide behind patriotism. But he can be a metaphor that inspires people to do what they really believe is right.

[shaunyc56]

I think Cap is relevant, and will always be. You need someone who is not afraid to be idealistic, someone you can hold up and strive to be like. For the MU heroes Cap isn't just relevant, in the Post registration world his shining example is needed.

[Calybos]

Idealism is never irrelevant--but it's often ignored.

[Prosthetic Head]

Captain America is the most relevant character in the history of American comics.

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

I brought up a very similar thread in a Superman forum. I think some people see Captain America as representing an outdated America that doesn't exist anymore and, in their minds, maybe never did.

We can throw around words like Truth and Justice and Freedom and even terms like The American Way. But those are like saying "Progress". But as Doctor Who once said, "Progress? Well, the problem is "Progress" is one of those words that can mean whatever you want it to mean. For instance, right now, it means its okay to steal people's land and anyone against that is against progress."

Truth- We are in a war for oil.

Justice- How can you be against gay rights and be for Justice? Its a contradiction in terms.

Truth- We are in a war against terrorism.

Justice- We should live and let live but we should not specifically legalize immoral behavior.

Disclaimer: I think it is completey a war for oil and political advantage and I am for gay rights. But the point is that we live in an America where social issues of this magnitude are discussed.

When Captain America started, he could represent the American Ideal without ever discussing what those ideals were or mentioning that there might be any disagreement about what was right or wrong in any given situation.

That just doesn't cut it now. But you can't have him take a stand on anything specific because as soon as he does, no matter what his view is, half the readers will say, "That's not the American Ideal and Cap would never have that point of view."

I don't think he is irrelevant. I think he is an inspiration. Now that can backfire. People can be bigoted or self-serving and hide behind patriotism. But he can be a metaphor that inspires people to do what they really believe is right.america has gotten more complicated over the past decades.so to SOME the old american ideals don't always apply in a post 9/11 world.well at least thats what neocons,and scared americans think now.

[Black Atom]

Um. It was never Cap's job to take a stand on things like gay rights. That's still up to the people to decide. His job is to protect the people from those who'd take away their freedom to make that choice.

[Alan2099]

Hero is never irrelevant. You can claim that they're out of date, behind the times, or whatever, but a guy that stands up and fights so that other people can be free to do what they want and proves a shinning role model in the process is always needed.

[Powerboy]

america has gotten more complicated over the past decades.so to SOME the old american ideals don't always apply in a post 9/11 world.well at least thats what neocons,and scared americans think now.

Yes, that's exactly the thing Cap would never agree with. Black Atom may be right that Cap wouldn't take a public stand on gay rights, rather defending the freedom of the people to choose. BUT what Cap would never agree with is scared Americans saying, "Hey let's just ignore the Constitution and our ideals because we're scared. After all, we're in a scary time and we have to set aside our Constitutional ideals in a situation like this."

What an absolute load of horsecrap. What good are 'ideals' if you ignore them the moment they matter? Then they're not ideals at all. A person who does that never really held those ideals to begin with.

[Morw]

Not going to adress captain america since Im not from USA, but I want to point out that the american ideals that he speaks so fondly over was "created" by a white upper class. USA is so much more then that one upper class.

During WW2 there was no such things as internett and communcation and press was easily controlled by the goverment. It was their veiws that was spoken. You have to remeber that propaganda was used by all sides during WW2. Captain america was used as well in the same manner. So this modern and more open sosiaty where almost everybody have acess to MYSPACE and the net. The common people of USA has a bigger uppertunity to speak thier mind. So ironcilly Myspace is probebly helping the "freedom of speech" that is one of the core belifes ( as I understand it) of USA.

Or as Evelyn Beatrice Hall said " "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." wich is the core belife of "freedom of speech"

[jaxcs]

Not going to adress captain america since Im not from USA, but I want to point out that the american ideals that he speaks so fondly over was "created" by a white upper class. USA is so much more then that one upper class.

During WW2 there was no such things as internett and communcation and press was easily controlled by the goverment. It was their veiws that was spoken. You have to remeber that propaganda was used by all sides during WW2. Captain america was used as well in the same manner. So this modern and more open sosiaty where almost everybody have acess to MYSPACE and the net. The common people of USA has a bigger uppertunity to speak thier mind. So ironcilly Myspace is probebly helping the "freedom of speech" that is one of the core belifes ( as I understand it) of USA.

Or as Evelyn Beatrice Hall said " "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." wich is the core belife of "freedom of speech"

You are going to have to explain what American ideals you think are white upper class. I don't get that comment at all.

I know that Sally in Front Line used MySpace in her soliloquy, but MySpace is not synonymous with the internet. MySpace isn't even a blog; a good number of the MySpace pages are just people giving shout outs to each other. There is no actual exchange of ideas.

[Black Atom]

Yes, that's exactly the thing Cap would never agree with. Black Atom may be right that Cap wouldn't take a public stand on gay rights, rather defending the freedom of the people to choose. BUT what Cap would never agree with is scared Americans saying, "Hey let's just ignore the Constitution and our ideals because we're scared. After all, we're in a scary time and we have to set aside our Constitutional ideals in a situation like this."

What an absolute load of horsecrap. What good are 'ideals' if you ignore them the moment they matter? Then they're not ideals at all. A person who does that never really held those ideals to begin with.

But doesn't the very fact that Captain America fights AGAINST those who use terror to try and undermine our ideals make him relevant? Sure, there's no real-life Steve Rogers to punch out the Osamas of the world, but the character is a reminder that we should fight for our beliefs. I'd say that makes him pretty relevant.

[CyberCoyote]

Captain America is the most relevant character in the history of American comics.

Signed with a twenty dollar tip

[Silliw 2]

Not going to adress captain america since Im not from USA, but I want to point out that the american ideals that he speaks so fondly over was "created" by a white upper class.

You mean ideals like FREEDOM, JUSTICE and RIGHTS?

Those wacky whities...what were they thinking :rolleyes:







Come on people, we all know that the U.S. is currently divided, corrupt, and generally ****ed up.

But to confuse our Ideals with our Government is both ignorant and wrong.

Captain America is our Ideals personified. Not a politician.

[Morw]

See People are to busy to make Cap a saint to see what im actully write.

Im attacking the idea that the american ideal are what he say they are.

American freedome? The red fear, Japanese consentration camps during WW2, treathment of native americans, south's slave plantages, Gutanamo bay, etc. That's the american history, the freedom they speak of is fine words on paper writter by white men from the upper class.

American justice? More justice of the dollar. I might not be american but I know to many americans to know that justice in america is to often a result of whos got the most money.

American Rights? Look at AMerican freedom.

Sorry but the rights you claim as idols of your contry is that of the rich white upper class, those with money egnough to be protected to have freedome,justice and rights.

Its not just the current goverment that has tossed those belifes out the window when it didnt souit them its been done threw history.

As for Myspace, yes its people shouting at each other, its the common vulgar form of debate. but Myspace is also one forum, but if you have seen myspace or know what Myspace is then you know of the forum(s) on the net. She just mention one of the most populare one, wich cap didnt know about. How can he then know of more serius forum(s)? If he had responde with no i use <Insert name> then her argument would fall to the ground. Its kinda like asking somebody if they have ever heard of Elvis to find out if they have ever heard of old school Rock. Same with Nascar, if he said No im more of a baseball fan myself then he would have given an indicator that he knows about common american peoples interrest. Cap dont. Its part of his charter. He is lost in the propaganda he was part of from WW2 and the world is past that eara now.

Important note: This is NOT an attack on america or trying to make another contry look better. this is an attack on veiws held by the upper class. Its the same all over the world. No contries escapes it. The elite of a contry make up some ideals that they say is what the contry is about, The common folk is feed that line untill they themself belive it. But the dream of most people and the ideals that build contries are often very diffrent. USA is one of those contries. It was not build on freedom, justice and Rights, USA was build on a dream of a better life, where if you worked hard you could make it big. ( become part of the elite so to say) USA was and still is the contry of uppertunites. Wich is a much more just and honest dream to have. And one of the reason I do hold USA in high estem. You have much more uppertunites then I ever will have, and that I envy you.

[jaxcs]

See People are to busy to make Cap a saint to see what im actully write.

Im attacking the idea that the american ideal are what he say they are.

American freedome? The red fear, Japanese consentration camps during WW2, treathment of native americans, south's slave plantages, Gutanamo bay, etc. That's the american history, the freedom they speak of is fine words on paper writter by white men from the upper class.

American justice? More justice of the dollar. I might not be american but I know to many americans to know that justice in america is to often a result of whos got the most money.

American Rights? Look at AMerican freedom.

Sorry but the rights you claim as idols of your contry is that of the rich white upper class, those with money egnough to be protected to have freedome,justice and rights.

Its not just the current goverment that has tossed those belifes out the window when it didnt souit them its been done threw history.

As for Myspace, yes its people shouting at each other, its the common vulgar form of debate. but Myspace is also one forum, but if you have seen myspace or know what Myspace is then you know of the forum(s) on the net. She just mention one of the most populare one, wich cap didnt know about. How can he then know of more serius forum(s)? If he had responde with no i use <Insert name> then her argument would fall to the ground. Its kinda like asking somebody if they have ever heard of Elvis to find out if they have ever heard of old school Rock. Same with Nascar, if he said No im more of a baseball fan myself then he would have given an indicator that he knows about common american peoples interrest. Cap dont. Its part of his charter. He is lost in the propaganda he was part of from WW2 and the world is past that eara now.

Important note: This is NOT an attack on america or trying to make another contry look better. this is an attack on veiws held by the upper class. Its the same all over the world. No contries escapes it. The elite of a contry make up some ideals that they say is what the contry is about, The common folk is feed that line untill they themself belive it. But the dream of most people and the ideals that build contries are often very diffrent. USA is one of those contries. It was not build on freedom, justice and Rights, USA was build on a dream of a better life, where if you worked hard you could make it big. ( become part of the elite so to say) USA was and still is the contry of uppertunites. Wich is a much more just and honest dream to have. And one of the reason I do hold USA in high estem. You have much more uppertunites then I ever will have, and that I envy you.

I wasn't trying to make cap look like a saint, I was trying to understand your post. It sounds very weird to hear ideals described as white and upper class. No one will deny that inequality exists in America, the debate rages on what is to be done to eliminate it. Also, I think you are confusing the implantation with the ideal. There are plenty of Christians who do not act very Christian, parents who are not parental, etc but falling short of goals do not mean the ideals are elitist.

This is only my reading but I think you put way too much store by the MySpace and Nascar comment in Frontline. I am not sure whether cap choose not to respond or that he could not respond. Maybe you don't know but this isn't the first time he has wondered about his relavence in the modern world. This, however, is the first time that I can recall that he has been called on it. Think about the situation, you've just surrendered, fought against some of your best friends, and called to the floor on insecurities you've had for some time. I think it would be hard to respond angrily or forcefully.

The idea that cap is elitist or not grounded in the current world is very easy to make because we know he was frozen for a couple of decades, but he's tried very hard to live a normal existence. If cap was a elitist snob I imagine he could have lived in wealthy areas of the city or just stayed at the Avengers mansion. Instead, he's had apartments in working class neighborhoods in Brooklyn and he's held a blue collar job as a draftsman. I'm sure he must have heard some water cooler talk while employed. If myspace or Nascar were discussed by his co-workers, he would have heard about it.

You will have to do a lot more to convince me that shout outs in MySpace constitute even a vulgar form of debate. The typical myspace page consists of posts like, "I love you kimeeee!" How is this debate? What is being debated?

[Tish-the-Scorpion]

He is lost in the propaganda he was part of from WW2 and the world is past that eara now. Basically.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Personally, I'm a DC reader at heart (though I read comics from both companies), so I'm on the side that although he was out of touch (and has been since he escaped from his ice prison), the values that he preached are very relevant and shouldn't be disregarded.

After the end of CW and the death of Cap, I've felt (and still feeling) like that last piece of true, iconic heroism has been destroyed. That last sense of warm hearted escapism and that one hero that I could truly look up to and try to follow the ideals of has been snatched from Marvel 616 continuity, and it sucks.

I don't care if he's relevant or not cause he's was and always will be to me. It's terrible that Marvel no longer feels this way.

[Oke-Doke]

Captain America fights to protect the ideals and people of America. In fact you can find Cap like people of all ages through out the country participating as civil servants. As long as America is a republic Captain America will be relevant.

[Morw]

first of thank you all for not see my responde as an attack on USA or to make it into a political debate. Thank good for that.

So to the matter we are discussing:

I have said earlier that I see the whole captain America not knowing Myspace and nascare as something that probably very out of charter. I can actually see cap going to a nascar event just to experiences it, and we have seen him working with computers in the stippes so him knowing about Myspace is also a strech. But the writters dont think so so thats what we have to work with.
Therefore:
Myspace do have alot "I love Kimmii" and other silly stuff, but there are also bloges that discuss more serius matters. And face it, give people free access to the media and you will get a lot of " I loove Kimmmii" but also people who will try to say something important. So knowing about Myspace is basically a question if he knows about blogs. I personally would have had her say blogs instead of myspace but it’s basically the same. The question she asks him, In a pretty bad wording is " do you at all know about the current America?" and he doesn’t that is the point and what she calls him on.
As for being an elitist, you don’t have to be rich to belong to that group. You have to belong to the group of people that are among the privileged. And Steve Rogers are among the privileges. He is Captain America after all and looked at as a living legend. If he wants a loan then no bank would refuse him, if he has a problem with some public service he will get it past all the bureaucracy by giving an autograph. He think of himself as morally above the common Americans , in the way that he knows best. That my friend is an elitist way of thinking. He doesn’t only think himself above the common crowed but also the government and basically everybody in USA that doesn’t agree with him. Had he been more adapt in the modern society then he would realise that the people wanted and needed this change, and to be honest this change is fare less then changes the government he believed in did. ( during wartime fare words orders where given)

[Jmacq1]

You must've missed that little speech he gave Spider-Man. It pointed out exactly why he was doing what he was doing despite the fact that public opinion leaned in the other direction.

Cap -knew- the American People were in favor of Registration. But the vast majority of American people aren't Superheroes and don't understand the kind of lives they lead, or the kinds of villains they fight (The fact that they'll wholeheartedly accept people like Green Goblin and Venom as "heroes" illustrates this perfectly). It's still quite possible to believe something is fundamentally wrong even when a lot of people are in favor of it. Cap foresaw that this was ultimately going to be bad for the heroes, and that it was going to penalize dozens (if not hundreds) of people who were only trying to do good.

Even after he surrendered, he made it clear that he still didn't believe in Registration as the "right" thing...only that he had been fighting the war the wrong way. (See "The Confession").

And now, as we see young heroes getting killed and depowered because of the negligence and ignorance of those that were supposed to be training and looking out for them (See Avengers: The Initiative #1), not to mention that the "Draft" has well and truly become a reality, we're already starting to see that Captain America's fears were well-founded.