the recent red hood storyarc [Archive] - Comic Book Resources Forums

shaxper

04-10-2007, 10:40 PM

I don't like the way he's been floating around lately... He needs to start having effect on Batman's life some more.

I thought the initial story-lines were pretty good; some of the best Winnick material I've read. There was a lot of promise here. However, ultimately, I don't think it delivered. The premise just sort of fizzled out and went nowhere. And when that happened, I regretted the fact that he was ever brought back in the first place.

I think these comments bring us to the real problem with the whole idea of bringing back Jason. DC Editorial didn't follow through. They pushed this return and pushed it hard, but then threw it on back-burner limbo when the new Crisis started. The only reason Jason hasn't disappeared into oblivion is because Winnick is desperately working to keep the character around in the only titles he's currently writing, even when Jason's appearance in these titles feels very forced.

I think the problem here was fan reactions. Many MANY fans vocalized their disappointment with Jason's return, and I think DC heard them. Especially after the Crisis, when DC was trying to make Batman less of a Batdick (again, I suspect, in response to fan pressure), the ultimate source of Batman's anger and guilt needed to be swept under the rug. Jason is Bruce's massive soar spot. More sensitive, I suspect, than even the murder of his parents. Sure, Batman did asshole things before Jason died, but that death was truly the beginning of Bruce's downward spiral into Batdick Land.

Anyone who enjoyed Winnick's work on the Red Hood is still desperately waiting for Bruce to come to terms with the worst skeleton in his closet; not only because it's a necessary (and fascinating) confrontation, but also because it's the only way to give Jason's return a purpose.

Everyone else would be much happier just pretending it never happened.

Incidentally, my theory on why Jason's return in Batman Annual #25 sucked so badly was because Winnick was working on short notice to somehow tie Jason's return into the events of Infinite Crisis. If Winnick had given a better explanation that didn't tie into the Crisis, DC could have easily erased Jason's return during the "soft reboot" and left it out of the post-Infinite Crisis continuity. While Batman Annual #25 sucked bad and really ruined Winnick's reputation for many readers, it was a crucial move to keep Jason alive post-Infinite Crisis.

TheWraith

04-11-2007, 12:40 AM

DC should ignore it just as the fans are doing. Bringing Jason back was a MONUMENTAL blunder!

Young Avenger

04-11-2007, 01:54 AM

They should have gotten Brubaker to write it.

Buried Alien

04-11-2007, 02:26 AM

DC should ignore it just as the fans are doing. Bringing Jason back was a MONUMENTAL blunder!

Unless somebody shows me some hard statistics proving that comic books featuring Jason Todd are selling worse than ones without him, I don't subscribe to this idea that EVERYBODY hates this character and doesn't want to see him in DC's comics. I only know for sure that Jason's detractors tend to be more vocal than his supporters.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

elias_A

04-11-2007, 03:53 AM

Could we maybe merge this thread with the ones we had before about this topic?
I posted my opinion on Winick's Red Hood story there and am too lazy now to search a link.

Basically I think that Jason could have worked, but he is just defined in relation to Batman, as the ultimate angry young man which you just can't talk to since he doesn't even listen to any attempt his "father" makes too fix their relationship.

So we never see things from Jason's point of view, which makes him just an effect, not a character.

Still, the story might have been interesting. But I think Black Mask was a very bad choice for villain here. He is entertaining, sure. But the way Jason acts just doesn't make sense. It seems like he could destroy Black Mask right away, so why doesn't he? Instead he's just annoying him.

If Jason had a carefully prepared, slowly developing plan to infiltrate Black mask's organisation, maybe undercover, in constant danger of being discovered, with Batman worried and offering advice, it would have worked much better.
As it is, there is no sense of danger or progress. What Jason and Black Mask do to each other is totally random.

*edit: A more generic reason why I don't like Winick's Batman work is that there are no normal people with normal problems in Gotham, not even small criminals. Only the superheroes, the supercool villains and the super-tough vigilantes exist in this world and constantly plot payback on each other.
That's not the world of the Batman I'm interested in.

Karl O'Neill

04-11-2007, 04:25 AM

Unless somebody shows me some hard statistics proving that comic books featuring Jason Todd are selling worse than ones without him, I don't subscribe to this idea that EVERYBODY hates this character and doesn't want to see him in DC's comics. I only know for sure that Jason's detractors tend to be more vocal than his supporters.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Agreed, I for one really loved judd winicks Arc's on batman and i love jason todd, because im only new to the character i judge him from what i see, and what i have seen is all good, so roll on countdown and lets see more jason todd.

Captain Jim

04-11-2007, 07:05 AM

Could we maybe merge this thread with the ones we had before about this topic?

I went back looking as far as the end of last year, and I'm not seeing a thread that addresses this specific topic. I don't subscribe to the notion that all Jason Todd threads should be merged, no matter the subject matter. But perhaps some posters need to re-read the initial post and make sure they're answering the question that he's asking. This is not another "Should they have brought Jason back?" thread. He's asking specifically about the quality of the stories.

Karl O'Neill

04-11-2007, 07:17 AM

and so far the two volumes of batman: under the hood 1 and 2 are both great reads,
so to the intial poster, these books rock, i couldnt care less about a ripple that brought someone back from the dead.

heck this is comics.

over and out,
Grievous

shaxper

04-11-2007, 08:08 AM

Basically I think that Jason could have worked, but he is just defined in relation to Batman, as the ultimate angry young man which you just can't talk to since he doesn't even listen to any attempt his "father" makes too fix their relationship.

So we never see things from Jason's point of view, which makes him just an effect, not a character.

Actually, I think the fact that Winnick distances us from Jason's perspective is both purposeful and a strength of the arc. Jason's potency post-crisis was always in his ability to unravel Batman. It was never about who Jason was as a person. It was about what he was doing to Batman as the young ward that was headed down a dark road that would eventually collide with Batman's, no matter what Batman did. He was the ultimate Batman foil. Someone dear to him that butted heads with him and caused Bruce to constantly evaluate where the line was in being a vigilante. He was the one element Bruce could never control, when he had everything else figured out so well.

If you go back and read Death in the Family, the whole thing is written from Bruce's perspective, even though it's supposed to be Jason's story. The drama comes from Bruce's sense of powerlessness as he desperately follows and then aids Jason in an attempt to keep him from destroying himself. Even the story before that, where Jason supposedly killed that diplomat's son, we never see him do it. We never hear his thoughts or watch the decision being made. We re-enter the scene of the crime along with Batman, knowing what happened without knowing what happened.

I think Winnick really did his homework on this arc. I could be wrong, but I don't think the post-crisis Jason ever had thought boxes in the pages of Batman. We never saw what was going on beneath. Instead, we watched from Batman's perspective and simply worried.

elias_A

04-11-2007, 08:10 AM

I went back looking as far as the end of last year, and I'm not seeing a thread that addresses this specific topic. I don't subscribe to the notion that all Jason Todd threads should be merged, no matter the subject matter. But perhaps some posters need to re-read the initial post and make sure they're answering the question that he's asking. This is not another "Should they have brought Jason back?" thread. He's asking specifically about the quality of the stories.

All right, that's a good point.

I found the thread I meant:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=154795

elias_A

04-11-2007, 08:17 AM

Actually, I think the fact that Winnick distances us from Jason's perspective is both purposeful and a strength of the arc. Jason's potency post-crisis was always in his ability to unravel Batman. It was never about who Jason was as a person. It was about what he was doing to Batman as the young ward that was headed down a dark road that would eventually collide with Batman's, no matter what Batman did. He was the ultimate Batman foil. Someone dear to him that butted heads with him and caused Bruce to constantly evaluate where the line was in being a vigilante. He was the one element Bruce could never control, when he had everything else figured out so well.

If you go back and read Death in the Family, the whole thing is written from Bruce's perspective, even though it's supposed to be Jason's story. The drama comes from Bruce's sense of powerlessness as he desperately follows and then aids Jason in an attempt to keep him from destroying himself. Even the story before that, where Jason supposedly killed that diplomat's son, we never see him do it. We never hear his thoughts or watch the decision being made. We re-enter the scene of the crime along with Batman, knowing what happened without knowing what happened.

I think Winnick really did his homework on this arc. I could be wrong, but I don't think the post-crisis Jason ever had thought boxes in the pages of Batman. We never saw what was going on beneath. Instead, we watched from Batman's perspective and simply worried.

I see what you mean.
But that effect is just not enough to keep the character interesting for two story arcs, I think. Especially since Winick's version of the character is very one-dimensional.
I would prefer thought boxes with his point of view to change that.

Karl O'Neill

04-11-2007, 09:32 AM

I see what you mean.
But that effect is just not enough to keep the character interesting for two story arcs, I think. Especially since Winick's version of the character is very one-dimensional.
I would prefer thought boxes with his point of view to change that.

Dc have great(big i mean) for Jason Todd.

Buried Alien

04-11-2007, 12:40 PM

I went back looking as far as the end of last year, and I'm not seeing a thread that addresses this specific topic. I don't subscribe to the notion that all Jason Todd threads should be merged, no matter the subject matter. But perhaps some posters need to re-read the initial post and make sure they're answering the question that he's asking. This is not another "Should they have brought Jason back?" thread. He's asking specifically about the quality of the stories.

The problem, Jim, is that a great number of anti-Jason posters see "Jason Todd" in the thread title as an invitation to repeat how much they wish Jason were still dead.

Perhaps we should do something about that. It's not exactly trolling, but it's closely related enough.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Captain Jim

04-11-2007, 01:53 PM

All right, that's a good point.

I found the thread I meant:
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=154795

And, having identified it, I read your post therein. And it does indeed address this topic and make good points. So it's fine to point people to it (or even to quote yourself). But I still think that thread's too old to combine with. Other moderators may do differently on their forums, but that's my call here.

sgt.candy

04-11-2007, 06:59 PM

no need to merge, i only wanted to know if anyone else enjoyed the arc

The Xenos

04-11-2007, 10:51 PM

As far as I care, Jason Todd is still dead. That's all I'll add.

Buried Alien

04-12-2007, 02:12 AM

As far as I care, Jason Todd is still dead. That's all I'll add.

This is precisely what I'm talking about. Just what does a comment like this add to the *particular topic under discussion*?

It's gotten to the point that anybody here who wants to talk about any aspect of Jason Todd OTHER than the fact that some people don't like seeing him alive again basically can't without getting his or her thread hijacked by those who want to mention for the hundredth time how much they hate Jason and wish he were still dead.

It's practically trolling.

Those who hate the Jason Todd character are free to do so, and they're also free to discuss that in a thread of its own if they wish. Just out of courtesy, if nothing else, I wish they would stop hijacking OTHER Jason Todd-related topics just to register a point that many are all too aware of and could care less about.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

elias_A

04-12-2007, 05:17 AM

And, having identified it, I read your post therein. And it does indeed address this topic and make good points. So it's fine to point people to it (or even to quote yourself). But I still think that thread's too old to combine with. Other moderators may do differently on their forums, but that's my call here.

No problem at all. In fact I thought that thread was much more recent.

Sorry if I forced you to search for the thread, I hope you didn't waste a lot of time with that.

Captain Jim

04-12-2007, 06:05 AM

Not a problem, elias. :)

Captain Jim

04-12-2007, 06:06 AM

This is precisely what I'm talkingabout. Just what does a comment like this add to the *particular topic under discussion*?

It's gotten to the point that anybody here who wants to talk about any aspect of Jason Todd OTHER than the fact that somebody don't like seeing him alive again basically can't without getting his or her thread hijacked by someone who wants to mention for the hundredth time how much they hate Jason and wish he were still dead.

It's practically trolling.

Those who hate the Jason Todd character are free to do so, and they're also free to discuss that in a thread of its own if they wish. Just out of courtesy, if nothing else, I wish they would stop hijacking OTHER Jason Todd-related topics just to register a point that many are all too aware of and could care less about.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Buried makes a good point. Let's try to stay on topic, people.

The Xenos

04-12-2007, 11:58 AM

Sorry. I was just trying to show that some people didn't care for any of the Red Hood arc at all. I was even annoyed at the appeance in Hush. Plus the whole thing between Hush and Red Hood just seems so tacked on and poorly done.

Some people say Devin K Grayson's Nightwing was bad fanfiction and 'Mary Sue'ism. I don't think that has anything on how bad Winick's whole Red Hood thing ended up. The story is terrible. Just because DC killed off a characer years ago and Winick hasn't moved on, he suddenly bring back Jason as this crazy badass.

Add to that they (DiDio and Winick?) were going to kill Nightwing and have Jason replace him. Seriously? Winick and DiDio just expected fans to swallow that tripe? They kill off Dick Grayson and replace him with the recently ressurected Jason Todd? How are these people still working at DC? What kind of idiots are running this ship?

Also, people have mentioned that Brubaker did something similar in Captain America, yet his story seems to be.. you know.. actually written well.

And that's ignoring the worst ressurection story I've ever heard in comics. Somone punched a wall of reality. ... BRILLIANT!

Buried Alien

04-12-2007, 12:58 PM

Sorry. I was just trying to show that some people didn't care for any of the Red Hood arc at all. I was even annoyed at the appeance in Hush. Plus the whole thing between Hush and Red Hood just seems so tacked on and poorly done.

Fair enough. I'm sorry I got snappish about it, but it's been very irritating trying to discuss the subject of Jason Todd and having to, without exception, read yet *another* "I hate Jason Todd and wish the whiny brat stayed dead" remark that is neither original nor has anything to do with the specific Todd-topic at hand. Not every reference to Jason Todd in this forum needs a preamble about how unpopular the character is.

Just because DC killed off a characer years ago and Winick hasn't moved on, he suddenly bring back Jason as this crazy badass.

You don't *know* that's his reason, but whatever reason the writer wants to use this character is immaterial to me as long as he makes it interesting. Obviously, it is not interesting to you and many others, but it is interesting to some. I can accept the argument that some people who have been reading the Red Hood storyline just don't find the character or the story interesting, but I do not accept that it's wrong on principle to write this character back into the active BATMAN mythos.

Add to that they (DiDio and Winick?) were going to kill Nightwing and have Jason replace him. Seriously? Winick and DiDio just expected fans to swallow that tripe? They kill off Dick Grayson and replace him with the recently ressurected Jason Todd? How are these people still working at DC? What kind of idiots are running this ship?

Apparently, ones who are not quite so "idiotic" because in the end, they decided to NOT go through with it (I fail to see the point of criticizing either Didio or Winnick for an idea they TOYED with, but ultimately did not follow through on, especially considering how unpopular the idea would likely have been). I agree it would have been a mistake: Dick Grayson is and has always been an extremely popular character and one of the DC's pillar characters along with Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, while Jason Todd has been controversial at best. Fortunately, Didio and Winnick realized that this would not be a well-received idea and aborted it.

And that's ignoring the worst ressurection story I've ever heard in comics. Somone punched a wall of reality. ... BRILLIANT!

Considering some of the character resurrection stories I've read in Marvel's comics during the 1980s and 1990s, it's a bit of a stretch to call this one "worst" (although perhaps you didn't read some of the comics I've read). I didn't think it was so bad: it was the kind of DC sci-fi idea that hearkened back to Silver and Bronze Age pseudoscience. Not the most brilliant idea ever, I agree, but it got the job done.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

shaxper

04-12-2007, 01:50 PM

Bringing back Jason was a bad idea and a betrayal to the fans, but, again, we're straying off topic. He's back from the dead. It's done. For the sake of this thread, let's move on from there and discuss what happened after.

I think this adamant opposition to his return, which deems irrelevant everything that's been done with the character since then, is what's preventing Jason's return from finding some ultimate purpose in the DCU. Having him just wander the back corridors of Winnick stories with no real direction is making Jason's resurrection even more of a futile waste and embarrassment. If he's back, at least do something with him.

Hopefully, the adverts for Countdown haven't been misleading, and Jason will be playing a significant role again soon.

kello

04-12-2007, 06:02 PM

and i mean the return of jason todd. how do you rate this arc if you completely ignore the issue explaining how he came back?

I hadn't read comics for about 7 or 8 years, and when I came back, I heard about this idea and groaned. But about a month or so ago I read the trades and I really, really liked the character. He's the anti-hero I love to hate, and I didn't think the "origin" story was that bad (because it worked with larger DC continuity) until other posters on these boards made me realize DC could made the story so much deeper. But I love the Hood and think if DC doesn't overuse him, he will be special.

Captain Jim

04-12-2007, 07:09 PM

Having him just wander the back corridors of Winnick stories with no real direction is making Jason's resurrection even more of a futile waste and embarrassment. If he's back, at least do something with him.

Now, this I wholeheartedly agree with.

Captain Jim

04-12-2007, 07:18 PM

Just because DC killed off a characer years ago and Winick hasn't moved on, he suddenly bring back Jason as this crazy badass.

I'm with Buried on this one; that isn't a fair critique. In actuality, as I read in an interview with Winnick before the story arc began, his thoughts were: if Jason turned up alive, but on the other side of the law, a killer no less, this would be Batman's greatest nightmare; much worse, in fact, than Jason simply being dead. That was the premise that Didio gave the "thumbs up" to.

Now, in spite of my own initial reservations, I had to admit that this was a very intriguing premise and had the potential to be very good. Nor do I argue with the "Batman's greatest nightmare" description.

My problem is with the fact that (evidently in their hurry to move on to first IC and then Grant Morrison), they left the whole thing dangling and ultimately went nowhere with it. And that being the case, it would have been better (IMO) if they had never brought him back.

But the stories themselves, while this was all unfolding, I still think they were pretty darn good--some of the best stuff I've seen Winnick write.

shaxper

04-12-2007, 09:22 PM

I'm with Buried on this one; that isn't a fair critique. In actuality, as I read in an interview with Winnick before the story arc began, his thoughts were: if Jason turned up alive, but on the other side of the law, a killer no less, this would be Batman's greatest nightmare; much worse, in fact, than Jason simply being dead. That was the premise that Didio gave the "thumbs up" to.

Now, in spite of my own initial reservations, I had to admit that this was a very intriguing premise and had the potential to be very good. Nor do I argue with the "Batman's greatest nightmare" description.

My problem is with the fact that (evidently in their hurry to move on to first IC and then Grant Morrison), they left the whole thing dangling and ultimately went nowhere with it. And that being the case, it would have been better (IMO) if they had never brought him back.

But the stories themselves, while this was all unfolding, I still think they were pretty darn good--some of the best stuff I've seen Winnick write.

Amen to all of this.

SongwindGlobal

04-13-2007, 10:55 AM

I don't like it when they bring characters back to life. I find that it cheapens the whole event of their death, and also removes a lot of tension/drama from comics in general. Just look at the responses to Captain America's death. How many of them have you seen without a "for now" or "allegedly" hedge in them?

That said, I love the idea of a former hero who has lost his way and gone over to the other side. The fact that it's someone with such close Batman ties makes it even better from my POV. It's just too bad they had to do it by bringing someone back from the dead.

Rupertmetal

04-18-2007, 11:44 AM

I hate Jason Todd. He is the biggest booger face ever to be created by a comic book company.

Haha just kidding. I love Jason Todd. I thought Winnick's story leading up to the end of IC was great. And I thought the Batman annual was great too.

And I like Jason Todd showing up all over the place. He wanted to prove to Batman that he should have killed Joker after Joker killed him, but he also wants to prove to all super heroes that killing is sometimes necessary.

If Winnick were writing Wonder Woman I would be fine with Red Hood tracking her down and telling her, "You know you liked killing Max Lord." It's his job to question super heroes belief in not killing, no matter what.

And about Red Hood being brought back and then not used, that is just how DC does it. Bring somebody back, take a break, then put them in a big story. They don't do the two back to back.

For example, the first OYL story in Batman and Detective Comics was Two-Face coming back. They brought him back and dragged it out and it wasn't nearly as good as the Red Hood story, but they set things up. The next Two-Face story will probably be big, just like the next Jason Todd story.

They did it with Joker too. Morrisons Joker story sucked and nothing happened in it, but that was just the setup for a big story later.

I admit, that it's annoying sometimes, but Jason Todd's return story was very good when compared to Two-Face's or Joker's.

Choppa

04-18-2007, 12:22 PM

I would have liked it if we had gotten an ending to it. The last thing we see is Jason trying to get revenge on Bruce for not killing the Joker and then we jump ahead one year and Jason doesn't seem to care about the Joker or Batman.

TheWraith

04-18-2007, 05:32 PM

I think DC realised what a mistake it was to bring Jason back, hence they're trying to push him into the background and hope we all forget about him. If it were me, I'd come up with a story to show that it isn't really Jason at all and then get rid of him forever. Wise up, DC!

Violently Apathetic

04-18-2007, 05:37 PM

I think DC realised what a mistake it was to bring Jason back, hence they're trying to push him into the background and hope we all forget about him.

Yeah, trying to push him into the background...that's why he's one of the major players in this summer's Countdown *thumbs nose*

Christopher Cross Is God

05-12-2007, 10:41 AM

I've only read one issue of this storyline, and wasn't impressed. It had some good elements, but overall the writing was flawed.

That's how I've felt about the select few Judd Winick-written comics I've read. The other Winick comics I've read were the Superman issues with Captain Marvel & Eclipso.

That said, I don't care for the resurrection (Resurrections are totally overdone in comics. Let the majority of them stay dead, you can always create new characters & storylines without them)......But, I'm able to accept it as long as the issue(s) with Jason Todd are written well. I just don't see that with Winick......But, I did enjoy the Geoff Johns-written Teen Titans issue where Jason Todd attacks Tim Drake.

bw38

05-12-2007, 11:35 AM

When I first started getting into Batman comics I read: The Dark Knight Returns, Year One, and picked up the Under The Hood Vol. 1 TPB at my local library. I loved DKR. Year One was pretty good. But when I read Under The Hood I was absolutely excited to know end at every flip of the page. I mean I had no idea who Jason Todd was. My basic knowledge of Batman came from the animated series and the movies. So I read the comic and I absolutely loved Vol. 1 It was like holy crap there's someone out there who's just as good as Batman and who's willing to take it a step further by killing villains. Then I read Vol. 2 and I was just as impressed. I mean the Superboy Prime punch explanation didn't make much sense to me, but whatever the fact is that Red Hood was kicking ass and pushing Batman to his limits. Do I kill a former Robin? Do I kill Joker? How can I save them both? Red Hood was always one step ahead of Batman it seemed. What I didn't like is that after that basically a bomb goes off and nothing happens to anyone. It appears like Batman killed Jason with a batarang to the neck but he didn't. And after that there was no more mention of Red Hood in Gotham City. That part I didn't like. I read another Jason Todd story when he appeared in Nightwing: Brothers in Blood. That was a terrible story. Looked like it had potential but once it became a battle with meta-humans I was disappointed. However if I take that out of the equation and focus on the Red Hood/Jason Todd that appeared in the Under The Hood story I think it was absolutely kick ass. Even till this day I haven't really read a story that kept me on my toes waiting to see what happened next. Then again I'm still finding my way through most Batman stories.

David Walton

05-12-2007, 03:32 PM

I just finished reading the Under the Hood TPBs today and I've got to say that while Vol. 1 is a little slow, Vol. 2 really picks up. One of the best Batman reads I've had since I can't remember when.

The ending was anticlimatic, but I suppose (not having read the IC titles) it was exactly the kind of cliffhanger DC was looking for along the lines of Supes without power and Lex fallen from grace and all that. But the problem is also fairly typical of comic books in general. Some closure would be nice, but no one in comics is really willing to put down their toys and finish a story apart from "Elseworlds". And even if they do, someone else will pick it up and ret-con the entire thing.

I tend to prefer stories now that are either of the old mold, one issue funfests with no baggage, or GN stories that have a clearly executed beginning, middle and end. I think that's one reason why titles like "Dark Knight Returns" resonate so well with fans.

There are more "Elseworlds" stories devoted to Batman than every other DC character combined. I think the reason is clear. Batman is perhaps the most aesthetic of all comic book heroes. I think most Batman writers don't just want to keep rolling out subplots and typical comic book scenarios. They want to deal with Batman as "the great American novel" so to speak. That's why you get so many good, self-contained (although not isolated) stories related to Batman. These are stories that draw on Batman's history (like "A Lonely Place of Dying") but also can be read without feeling as though one needs to read Bats every month to get the effect.

Characters like Superman, Flash, and the like tend to need subplots to keep readers interested. You can use subplots with Bats (and it's been done well from time to time), but they aren't necessary.

Perhaps ideally, the Jason Todd story could have been an Elseworlds with a fitting conclusion--either Jason killing Joker, vice versa, or even Batman killing one or the other.

But I think that overall the Red Hood story arc is one of Batman's finest, and considering that there are more really excellent Batman stories than perhaps any other hero (and Batman isn't actually my favorite), that's saying a lot.

The Batman

05-12-2007, 03:46 PM

Yeah, as much as I think that it was a mistake to bring Jason Todd back (and to bring him back the way they did) I've got admit that I really enjoyed those issues and I'm liking, with the exception of Bruce Jones' craptastic Nightwing stuff, what's been done with the Red Hood so far.

I'm still really just mixed on the whole thing.

Captain Jim

05-13-2007, 04:31 PM

when I read Under The Hood I was absolutely excited to no end at every flip of the page. I mean I had no idea who Jason Todd was.

Then you need to read the "Death in the Family" trade. :)

Captain Jim

05-13-2007, 04:32 PM

Has anybody here read Winnick's recent Green Arrow stories that featured the Red Hood? Did they add anything significant to his storyline?

jv2k

05-13-2007, 04:40 PM

Then you need to read the "Death in the Family" trade. :)

Death in the family was a terrible story that made Jason a brat out of nowhere.
I suggest he try finding a trade that has the story where that guy falls out of a balcony.

sgt.candy

05-13-2007, 06:15 PM

yea this reminds me, i gotta pick up more issues of this

what is jason doing now?

Captain Jim

05-13-2007, 07:03 PM

Death in the family was a terrible story

You're entitled to your opinion. I disagree.

... that made Jason a brat out of nowhere.

Not really. It was pretty much the logical progression from his revamping post-crisis.

I suggest he try finding a trade that has the story where that guy falls out of a balcony.

Not sure what you're referring to. My point was, you can't really understand the current Red Hood stuff without an exposure to Death in the Family.

jv2k

05-13-2007, 07:20 PM

jv2k

05-13-2007, 07:30 PM

Has anybody here read Winnick's recent Green Arrow stories that featured the Red Hood? Did they add anything significant to his storyline?
They didn't really add much.
He wasn't written bad like he was in Nightwing but all he did was talk about how he and Mia were similar(both grew up in the streets) and told her that sometimes bad things have to be done to do good things. I suppose this may be covered later on since they stopped fighting after that(red hood gets a sidekick?) and it looked like she considered what he said but it doesn't seem like much will come of it.

Captain Jim

05-13-2007, 07:53 PM

It really wasn't natural progression. One issue he's fine, albeit a bit more angry than usual the next he is crying over his dead dad and acting more bratty than usual. If you read his entire post crisis run in Batman you see that he isn't nearly as anoying as he was that arc. Unless of course something happened in detective that I missed, then I suppose it would have made sense.

Let me begin by saying I'm not really a big fan of the post-Crisis Jason Todd. Never was. I did like the pre-Crisis Jason, however. Also, I haven't read these stories in years and years, so I'm not real clear on all the details. But I guess, in a way, I considered this a natural progression from the kid who, when we first saw him, was stealing the hubcaps off the batmobile. On the other hand, if you're referring to his lamentations about his parents, I do seem to recall that this was introduced kind of late.

As for oppinions I suppose your right but come on! They made the Joker an Iranian diplomat!

Well, not Iranian, but that fictionalized mid-Eastern country they often referred to. And, in context, I guess it worked for me. This is comic books, after all.

Personally I think death in the family and Jason's intro are the reasons why so many people hate him. They don't know about and check out his intro and death and then make a judgement based off of it that he was a terrible character.

Again, I disagree. What everybody forgets is, people didn't vote to kill Jason Todd; they voted to kill Robin. Maybe we were all naive at the time, but I don't think it really occurred to people that DC would just turn around and introduce a new Robin.

Now, granted, the post-Crisis Jason wasn't all that warm of a character. But many of the people who voted to kill him off weren't even regular Batman readers. I think what people were voting against was a young kid in short-shorts and pixie boots who followed Batman around. Batman was being presented as more of a dark character than previously and the two just didn't seem to mesh. I don't think it's any accident that, when Tim Drake was introduced as a new Robin, he had an updated costume that wasn't so silly-looking by contemporary standards.

Again, I don't think that people necessarily hate Jason as a character today. What they hate is that one of the few "permanent" deaths in comics has now been reversed.

Buried Alien

05-13-2007, 08:14 PM

On the other hand, if you're referring to his lamentations about his parents, I do seem to recall that this was introduced kind of late.

Not as late as you might think: the revelation that Jason's father had been a thug in the employ of Two-Face was received by both Jason and readers in the penultimate part of the story that introduced the Post-COIE Jason Todd. The seed was already planted, even though it didn't fully germinate until a year and a half later.

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jv2k

05-13-2007, 09:17 PM

Let me begin by saying I'm not really a big fan of the post-Crisis Jason Todd. Never was. I did like the pre-Crisis Jason, however. Also, I haven't read these stories in years and years, so I'm not real clear on all the details. But I guess, in a way, I considered this a natural progression from the kid who, when we first saw him, was stealing the hubcaps off the batmobile. On the other hand, if you're referring to his lamentations about his parents, I do seem to recall that this was introduced kind of late.

It wasn't just the fact that he mourned. Besides some generic robin stuff and the interesting twist where he killed that guy Jason wasn't as unlikeable as he was in Death in the Family. I've read through his run twice and both times he seemed likable enough until that story.

Well, not Iranian, but that fictionalized mid-Eastern country they often referred to. And, in context, I guess it worked for me. This is comic books, after all.

Was it? Hmmm guess its been a while since I last read it. I dunno I suppose I wouldn't have minded if it were Lex Luthor or something, but Joker? Thats a bit of a stretch, even for a book where a guy puts on tights and underwear in an attempt to look like a bat so he can fight crime.

Again, I disagree. What everybody forgets is, people didn't vote to kill Jason Todd; they voted to kill Robin. Maybe we were all naive at the time, but I don't think it really occurred to people that DC would just turn around and introduce a new Robin.

Now, granted, the post-Crisis Jason wasn't all that warm of a character. But many of the people who voted to kill him off weren't even regular Batman readers. I think what people were voting against was a young kid in short-shorts and pixie boots who followed Batman around. Batman was being presented as more of a dark character than previously and the two just didn't seem to mesh. I don't think it's any accident that, when Tim Drake was introduced as a new Robin, he had an updated costume that wasn't so silly-looking by contemporary standards.

Oh I know I read the back of the comics and there were a lot of comments like "I don't have anything against Jason but Batman does his best work alone".

Again, I don't think that people necessarily hate Jason as a character today. What they hate is that one of the few "permanent" deaths in comics has now been reversed.
I've heard a lot of Jason hate even before he got brought back to life.

bw38

05-13-2007, 10:19 PM

Then you need to read the "Death in the Family" trade. :)
I did read A Death In The Family later on but found it to be so nonsensical. Out of all the Batman stories I've been reading so far it's ranked the lowest on my list I'd say. Batman in the middle east? wtf? Joker in the UN? c'mon now. It would have been a great story had they done it in Gotham City with an evil plot or something. There was no need to go overseas. It was just ridiculous if you ask me. Even the emotions that Bruce was going through didn't seem all that intact with what I was expecting. Needless to say I didn't like A Death In The Family.

Buried Alien

05-13-2007, 10:24 PM

I did read A Death In The Family later on but found it to be so nonsensical. Out of all the Batman stories I've been reading so far it's ranked the lowest on my list I'd say. Batman in the middle east? wtf? Joker in the UN? c'mon now. It would have been a great story had they done it in Gotham City with an evil plot or something.

While I agree with and always preferred the idea of Jason Todd's death taking place in the environment of Gotham City (the idea's just natural, somehow), it really wasn't so ridiculous for Batman to be globetrotting. This was the 1980s. It wasn't unusual at all to see Batman do things like that back then (or appear in broad daylight either). It wasn't until the 1990s that he really seemed stuck to Gotham.

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bw38

05-13-2007, 10:44 PM

While I agree with and always preferred the idea of Jason Todd's death taking place in the environment of Gotham City (the idea's just natural, somehow), it really wasn't so ridiculous for Batman to be globetrotting. This was the 1980s. It wasn't unusual at all to see Batman do things like that back then (or appear in broad daylight either). It wasn't until the 1990s that he really seemed stuck to Gotham.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
That's why I think I also don't like the story overall. I can't even think of the word to describe the story. It just doesn't seem natural to me and I think that's because of my age.

Choppa

05-14-2007, 11:19 AM

So tehre hasn't been a resolution to Jason wanting to kill Bruce for not killing Joker?

Buried Alien

05-14-2007, 11:26 AM

So tehre hasn't been a resolution to Jason wanting to kill Bruce for not killing Joker?

No, but I think the moment has passed. Both Bruce and Jason have gone through some changes since then.

Jason never wanted to kill Bruce, though. Deep down, Jason still looks up to Bruce and loves him as a father. Jason, however, wants to torment Bruce for his failure to kill the Joker. Tormenting Bruce, not killing him, is Jason's goal.

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Choppa

05-14-2007, 12:11 PM

No, but I think the moment has passed. Both Bruce and Jason have gone through some changes since then.

Jason never wanted to kill Bruce, though. Deep down, Jason still looks up to Bruce and loves him as a father. Jason, however, wants to torment Bruce for his failure to kill the Joker. Tormenting Bruce, not killing him, is Jason's goal.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Then why'd he try to blow him up??

Captain Jim

05-14-2007, 08:38 PM

Not as late as you might think: the revelation that Jason's father had been a thug in the employ of Two-Face was received by both Jason and readers in the penultimate part of the story that introduced the Post-COIE Jason Todd. The seed was already planted, even though it didn't fully germinate until a year and a half later.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Guess I wasn't so far off after all. ;)

Captain Jim

05-14-2007, 08:39 PM

it really wasn't so ridiculous for Batman to be globetrotting. This was the 1980s. It wasn't unusual at all to see Batman do things like that back then (or appear in broad daylight either). It wasn't until the 1990s that he really seemed stuck to Gotham.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I guess that's why I don't remember it as being such a bad story. It wasn't that unusual for the time it was written.

Buried Alien

05-14-2007, 08:49 PM

Then why'd he try to blow him up??

Desperation play, when all else had failed. Jason thought that the explosion would kill the Joker, Bruce, and himself. I don't think Jason could live with himself if he knowingly killed Bruce, but since he didn't seem bent on returning to the grave himself, Jason probably didn't consider killing Bruce "Plan A."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Christopher Cross Is God

05-14-2007, 11:05 PM

Well, not Iranian, but that fictionalized mid-Eastern country they often referred to. And, in context, I guess it worked for me. This is comic books, after all.

It was Iran, they showed Khomeini in the storyline.

I assume the fictionalized country you referred to is Qurac.

Looking back at it now, the storyline was a bit ridiculous, but for its time it was a great read. I can still read the tpb today and enjoy it, just doesn't hold as much weight as it used to.

Nefarius

05-15-2007, 03:56 AM

I did read A Death In The Family later on but found it to be so nonsensical. Out of all the Batman stories I've been reading so far it's ranked the lowest on my list I'd say. Batman in the middle east? wtf? Joker in the UN? c'mon now. It would have been a great story had they done it in Gotham City with an evil plot or something. There was no need to go overseas. It was just ridiculous if you ask me. Even the emotions that Bruce was going through didn't seem all that intact with what I was expecting. Needless to say I didn't like A Death In The Family.

It sucks as a story.I would prefer Jason to die in Gotham City and not by the Joker.Imagine normal crooks killing Robin.It would have made his death more tragic.But that's my opinion.

Captain Jim

05-15-2007, 06:37 AM

It was Iran, they showed Khomeini in the storyline.

I assume the fictionalized country you referred to is Qurac.

Your assumption is correct. So much for my memory that time. :o

Looking back at it now, the storyline was a bit ridiculous, but for its time it was a great read. I can still read the tpb today and enjoy it, just doesn't hold as much weight as it used to.

Y'know, I don't ever recall anyone saying the story was such a fantastic read. It was in great demand and collected in a trade simply because Jason died therein.

Similarly, when I suggested it to people who didn't know the Red Hood's background, it wasn't because it's such a fantastic story, but because it gives the background that enables you to understand Jason Todd and what motivates him.