A Big 3 Question. any help is good.

[Karl O'Neill]

me and my friend were chatting the other day as we walked up to Forbidden Planet to get our weekly comics, and my mate made a point and conviction that wonder-woman does not deserve to put put in the same bracket as superman and batman,

he likes wonder woman as a character and all, but he said that if you ask anyone to name a classic superman or batman story they could do so with much ease. dark knight returns, Long halloween, year 100, year one, batman and son, ect,
same with superman, tons of great stories.

heck even the teen titans(The judas contract) have classic stories.

I could not give him an anwser there and then, because i really didnt know what great wonder woman stories are out there???

So can you guys post some classic(great) wonder woman stories that make you say wow that was good.

Lets not bash. just note the best wonder woman stories.

and does she deserve to be pinned to the BIG 3 status?

Thanks

[dupersuper]

The 1st Perez arc? Amazonia? Kingdom Come and Morrisons' JLA were pretty much Supes stories, but had some great WW moments.

I don't think that's the point, anyway. WW is 1 of the trinity because she's the other dc hero who's been in continuous publication since the golden age. She's 1 of dc's oldest and (thanks to the 70's tv show, superfriends, an apearance in the Ruby Spears Supes cartoon, the JL and JLU cartoons, and general pop culture saturation) 1 of their most recognizable heroes. There are tonnes of people who would just stare at you blankly if asked about any specific Supes or Bats story, no matter how great, that still KNOW who all THREE are. Plus, having a trinity to refer to makes the dcu sound more epic.

[MichaelMogg]

Remember a month or so ago, this forum alight with WW threads? Generally, lots of people say that simply because a writer hasn't found a way to use her to her full potential, doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the status (actually more like "to be killed" is more accurate of that thread).

Ambush Bug has some great stories, but you wouldn't see him (or Cheeks) in the "big three". She's one of the most powerful characters in the DCU; therefore she deserves the status.

[shaxper]

Remember a month or so ago, this forum alight with WW threads? Generally, lots of people say that simply because a writer hasn't found a way to use her to her full potential, doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the status (actually more like "to be killed" is more accurate of that thread).

Ambush Bug has some great stories, but you wouldn't see him (or Cheeks) in the "big three". She's one of the most powerful characters in the DCU; therefore she deserves the status.

I guess this all adds up to what qualifications make a character "one of the big three." For me, all it means is that they're characters that have been going since the Golden Age that are all heavily embedded in our popular culture and which DC will never allow to disappear or fade out of the DCU mainstream.

I don't think for a second that WW has had the same rich comic book history as Batman and Superman. She's had less classic creative teams and far less memorable stories. When asked to describe classic Wonder Woman, most fans will proudly exclaim "George Perez Post-Crisis!" and then have no other storylines or creative teams beyond that. Batman wasn't just Neal Adams. Superman wasn't just Curt Swan. Whether its the premise or the fact that she's a woman, WW has not had as positive an experience in comics over the years. I strongly believe the only reason DC kept trying to make her as big as Batman and Superman was because she was their first solo super-heroine.

[Karl O'Neill]

I just bought paradise Lost, looks a bit odd, the fricking joker is in it!

[PastePotPete]

Many point to Perez's post-crisis run as Wonderwoman's most classic arc, and, visually, I think it's some fantastic comic book art. The detail, the layouts, the visual storytelling are unquestionably awesome.

But I don't think it counts as a classic story because the writing is lacking in many respects. Like Kirby and many other great artists who take a turn in the writing chair, Perez wrote things that he wanted to draw. A lot of the plot and the characterizations in that arc leave me kinda cold.

[Hawkman]

What about Wagner's aptly named Trinity? I know it's... well, about the trinity, but I personally felt Wonder Woman really stole the show. I love that story, personally.

[Mr. Kent]

It's been a while since I read it, but Rucka's The Hiketeia was a pretty good take on the character. I also have Justice League: League of One, which was all about WW. Those two stories seem to me to be really strong takes on the character.

As for stories that are more widely known, or recognized as classics even by non-WW fans? Having a hard time thinking of them. Whereas even non-fans can say "He broke his back and got replaced, didn't he?" or "Hey! Superman died!", there aren't really any of those moments in WW history.

[Powerboy]

The problem is that I know lots of arcs but I don't know one all-encompassing title to call them by.

There was the Ares arc when Ares tried to bering about an all-out war on Earth.

There was the whole arc of Wonder Woman being chosen as Athena's champion against Zeus.

There was the Circe arc (not the current one).

As to whether or not WW deserves to be thought of on the level of Superman and Batman, I think so. Forget the arcs for a minute and think about what characters are extremely well known both to comics readers and to people who don't read comics. Everybody knows who Superman and Batman are and knew before the movies of the last twenty or so years. Wonder Woman is pretty much the same. Who doesn't know who she is?

Now I could walk into work and mention some characters like the Flash or Green Lantern or Hawkman and most people would either say "Who?" or, at best, "Oh yes, from that cartoon." Until the recent movie, few people outside comic readers knew who the Fantastic Four were. But nobody is going to say, "Who is Wonder Woman?" They know who she is as well as Batman or Superman.

I remember an adult swim skit with Harvey Birdman, Attorney-at-law that went something like this:

HB: Think of the super heroes that defined the genre, the ones you think of when you think of the archetypal super heroes. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Bird-Man, The Hulk...

Juror: Excuse me. I agree with all those others but I don't think of Bird-Man when I think of the classic super heroes.

HB: Do you mind? I'm trying to do my opening statement here.

I don't know sales figures. I know WW doesn't sell like Superman or Batman. I am curious as to how her sales are compared to some of the other characters once you get past Supes and Bats.

me and my friend were chatting the other day as we walked up to Forbidden Planet to get our weekly comics, and my mate made a point and conviction that wonder-woman does not deserve to put put in the same bracket as superman and batman,

he likes wonder woman as a character and all, but he said that if you ask anyone to name a classic superman or batman story they could do so with much ease. dark knight returns, Long halloween, year 100, year one, batman and son, ect,
same with superman, tons of great stories.

heck even the teen titans(The judas contract) have classic stories.

I could not give him an anwser there and then, because i really didnt know what great wonder woman stories are out there???

So can you guys post some classic(great) wonder woman stories that make you say wow that was good.

Lets not bash. just note the best wonder woman stories.

and does she deserve to be pinned to the BIG 3 status?

Thanks

[Powerboy]

I think it is a lot of the things you said that makes them define her as part of the big three. Let's face it, three sounds really nice and trinity-like. But why her instead of another character?

As you said, its partly because she is a Golden Age character in continuous publication.

She is their first solo heroine and one of the few that is not derivitive of a male character. In other words, not Supergirl or Batgirl. She is the first female super character or at least the first one to ever attain such status.

I think there were times they would have canceled the comic except for the fact that she is the things I said above.

There is something about the concept that puts her way above the other DC characters except Superman and Batman.

I guess this all adds up to what qualifications make a character "one of the big three." For me, all it means is that they're characters that have been going since the Golden Age that are all heavily embedded in our popular culture and which DC will never allow to disappear or fade out of the DCU mainstream.

I don't think for a second that WW has had the same rich comic book history as Batman and Superman. She's had less classic creative teams and far less memorable stories. When asked to describe classic Wonder Woman, most fans will proudly exclaim "George Perez Post-Crisis!" and then have no other storylines or creative teams beyond that. Batman wasn't just Neal Adams. Superman wasn't just Curt Swan. Whether its the premise or the fact that she's a woman, WW has not had as positive an experience in comics over the years. I strongly believe the only reason DC kept trying to make her as big as Batman and Superman was because she was their first solo super-heroine.

[captain_unimpressive]

Well, without WW there, it would just be two guys who spend a suspicious amount of time together.
And, no matter how much the DCU tends towards diversity in the future, that is a line that, IMO, Siegel, Schuster, Kane, and Miller would not have wanted us to cross.

[Powerboy]

Well, without WW there, it would just be two guys who spend a suspicious amount of time together.
And, no matter how much the DCU tends towards diversity in the future, that is a line that, IMO, Siegel, Schuster, Kane, and Miller would not have wanted us to cross.


I hesitate to say anything because I don't want to divert the thread. I'm not so sure Miller wouldn't think it was okay to do that if someone was able to write it well. He seems to thrive on doing controversial things with characters.

As to Wonder Woman, in some respects, that mentality has held the concept back from being a bit realistic. Even in the early Post-Crisis work it was acknowledged that on an island of women with no men where people lived for centuries, it was silly to think they did not involve themselves with each other. Of course, even then, WW said it as if it was done merely because no men were available which was still really making it sound like a second choice and ignoring reality.

[captain_unimpressive]

I hesitate to say anything because I don't want to divert the thread. I'm not so sure Miller wouldn't think it was okay to do that if someone was able to write it well. He seems to thrive on doing controversial things with characters.

As to Wonder Woman, in some respects, that mentality has held the concept back from being a bit realistic. Even in the early Post-Crisis work it was acknowledged that on an island of women with no men where people lived for centuries, it was silly to think they did not involve themselves with each other. Of course, even then, WW said it as if it was done merely because no men were available which was still really making it sound like a second choice and ignoring reality.

Batman is Miller's personal archetype of masculinity, so he would most likely be against it. He might imply Superman's unrequited. Sort of like what he did with the Joker and Dick Grayson.

There's a lot about Wonder Woman which is unrealistic.
This is on the list, but it doesn't make the top 10.