I miss the yellow oval!

[BatKnight89]

I don't care what the excuse is if it's for the suit to be darker or what, they need to bring back the yellow logo, it did not make him stand out anymore than with another logo.

It worked all those years, since the 60's. I say bring it back man!

It was so much more Batman's logo than that dull, generic Bat logo he has now, it looks like a halloween decoration.

There's no style to the plain one, nothing to make it his own.

The yellow was such a great poster for the 89 movie too, some couldn't tell what it was at first, it was just unique.

Batman should have that unique logo, like how Superman has his S in the shield, and Lantern with his circle lantern logo.

It was such a great unique style.

[mattx110]

I don't care what the excuse is if it's for the suit to be darker or what, they need to bring back the yellow logo, it did not make him stand out anymore than with another logo.

It worked all those years, since the 60's. I say bring it back man!

It was so much more Batman's logo than that dull, generic Bat logo he has now, it looks like a halloween decoration.

There's no style to the plain one, nothing to make it his own.

The yellow was such a great poster for the 89 movie too, some couldn't tell what it was at first, it was just unique.

Batman should have that unique logo, like how Superman has his S in the shield, and Lantern with his circle lantern logo.

It was such a great unique style.
i prefer the grey outfit with big black bat, but it would be nice if he traded off. used one outfit while alfred is re-stitching the other. it's not like we'd be like "that's not batman, he has a different bat" the ears and cape will still be there.

[DWEarhart]

I understand, but I don't miss it.

I do not doubt the oval's return, and more yays and nays about it, but I'll just ride through that wave too.

[Captain Jim]

I grew up on the original design (which is what he has again now); I didn't like it when he lost it the first time around, and I have no desire to see it go again.

[a-spidey]

i prefer the darker suit too. The yellow oval doesn't make much sense for me anyway. Every time when he's hiding in the dark he has to cover his chest cuz of the yellow. Not really smart.

[Kid Quick Foots]

I don't care what the excuse is if it's for the suit to be darker or what, they need to bring back the yellow logo, it did not make him stand out anymore than with another logo.

It worked all those years, since the 60's. I say bring it back man!

It was so much more Batman's logo than that dull, generic Bat logo he has now, it looks like a halloween decoration.

There's no style to the plain one, nothing to make it his own.

The yellow was such a great poster for the 89 movie too, some couldn't tell what it was at first, it was just unique.

Batman should have that unique logo, like how Superman has his S in the shield, and Lantern with his circle lantern logo.

It was such a great unique style.


im with you 200%, but get ready for all the naysayers to come in and say "it doesnt make since....blah, blah, blah," BAH!!! i say, it looks better imho and it is just cool, i mean realistically, its a guy in a big bat suit people, and a yellow oval is what kills the believability for you? really?:p

[Bats]

I also prefer the yellow oval, but don't have a problem with the black bat. I grew up with the oval, and thats always gonna be my classic look for Batman.
Having said that, I don't like the all black costume he wore, and prefer his current look to that one.

[Starba]

I grew up on the oval, but I prefer the bat. It's the original look, and I think it's important to keep that.

[Buried Alien]

I like the oval. When it was in use, it was great shorthand for determining when a certain story took place in Batman's history. If he were using the oval-less bat, you knew the story took place early in his career...at a time no later than just after he had recruited Dick Grayson as Robin and joined the Justice League. When the original Multiverse was in operation, it was also an easy way to distinguish the Earth-One Batman from the Earth-Two Batman.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Chad]

The "New Look" uniform works perfectly as both a classic superhero outfit and as the costume of a creature of the night. I know a lot of people feel it's too bright for Batman but it's the outfit he wore when drawn by Neal Adams, Marshall Rogers, Norm Breyfogle, Don Newton, and many others. Blue and yellow looks perfect in light, and in the dark it can revert to black and grey with the oval looming out of the shadows.

In the latest issue of Detective, Batman is shown walking towards his costume next to which is a selection of utility belts. One of them is the cylinder belt. I think a letter's page from an issue of Batman even said that there's no reason why Batman wouldn't switch his uniforms up once in awhile and I'd like to see him do this as mattx110 suggested.

[mgs]

as we've had this discussion many times before, I'd like to say that stylistically, I like the yellow oval as well. but for one trying to hide in the shadows, it's not a great idea.

I think someone took me to school on this, but I remember the comic where Batman is actually armored underneath the oval, and it saved him, while, at the same time, drawing fire to the area, since it stands out so much against his dark costume, that it acts like a bullseye, to an area where Bruce knows that he is protected. So maybe it makes sense in that regard as well. But I think it's not typical for Bruce to have the armored oval as much as I thought.

[TheWraith]

I'm happy with it the way it is now, but I don't think it matters too much either way.

[TheBatGotHim]

:( Gotta admit I miss it too. But like others have said, the one he has on his chest now works real well. :)

[Buried Alien]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the original/current oval-less costume, mind you, but in my opinion, the oval-less Batman always looks...less *complete*, somehow. Not worse, just less complete. It always says to me, "early, relatively inexperienced Batman" or "Golden Age Batman" rather than "current Batman."

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[phantom1592]

Bring it BACK!

I'm with you too. I always look at the new/old costume and say "thats not batman" MY batman was the Neal Adams blue and grey.

I don't understand all the people who say its not good for hiding in the shadows? Batman WANTS to be seen. Is why he wears a big scary costume. If he wanted to go all ninja.... he's good enough to drop the punks LONG before they ever saw him. But he wants them to be scared of "the bat"

[Panman]

It may not be part of the Batsuit anymore but it's still part of the Batsignal.

[JoeK32880]

I prefer the big old bat across the chest myself. Not that I have anything against the oval, really. It's certainly the design I grew up on and am most familiar with. But looking back on it, it just doesn't seem right. It's so small, it looks like he just slapped a sticker on his chest.

Now, maybe, if they made it larger (maybe not Superman large), and adjusted the otehr colors of his costume (a more prominent yellow utility belt, brighter blue as opposed to the gray/black he has now) I would be in favor of giving it a tryout.

[Captain Jim]

The size is one of the things I've always disliked about the yellow oval. Before the oval, the bat on his chest was large; when the oval was added, the bat (probably of necessity) became tiny. So much so that, sometimes, you couldn't even tell it was a bat.

[The Xenos]

Bring back the yellow oval? Naw. AOL Time Warner DC comics have found that they can now trademark a plain bat symbol. They don't have any need of the yellow oval anymore.

Really, was there any other reason they changed it in the first place? Why should a corperate logo be the center of Batman's suit? Geez. Can't we just leave that in the 80s?

[Alan2099]

Really, was there any other reason they changed it in the first place? Why should a corperate logo be the center of Batman's suit? Geez. Can't we just leave that in the 80s?
Can't we leave the big bat in the 40?

[David O Burcham]

Can't we leave the big bat in the 40?

No we can't! Frank Miller drew it DKR without the oval and, therefore, every Batman comic MUST be that way.

Seriously, though. I see nothing wrong with Bats returning to the yellow oval and the blue cape, cowl, gloves, and boots (instead of the murky, dark indigo he wears now). It would be perfect with the death of "Batdick" and rebirth of "Batman, the Super-Hero". There's nothing wrong with a character in a super-hero funny book looking like a character in a super-hero funny book.

[The Xenos]

Why doesn't Batman dance anymore? I used to dance a mean Batusi.

[Hellstormer]

I never wanna see that oval again.:mad:

[xnef1025]

No we can't! Frank Miller drew it DKR without the oval and, therefore, every Batman comic MUST be that way.

Seriously, though. I see nothing wrong with Bats returning to the yellow oval and the blue cape, cowl, gloves, and boots (instead of the murky, dark indigo he wears now). It would be perfect with the death of "Batdick" and rebirth of "Batman, the Super-Hero". There's nothing wrong with a character in a super-hero funny book looking like a character in a super-hero funny book.
Don't blame DKR for this one. Frank used the yellow oval early in book and was one writer that gave the "target" reasoning.

DKR page 51 of the Tenth Anniversy Edition: Bats is running along his grapple wire and takes a magnum round to the chest. "--Why do you think I wear a target on my chest--can't armor my head--"

He didn't switch out of the yellow until after he beat the Mutant leader and Carrie was patrolling with him as Robin. Cynics would say it was because he then had a living target to draw the fire away so he could afford to do away with it.

[mattx110]

Don't blame DKR for this one. Frank used the yellow oval early in book and was one writer that gave the "target" reasoning.

DKR page 51 of the Tenth Anniversy Edition: Bats is running along his grapple wire and takes a magnum round to the chest. "--Why do you think I wear a target on my chest--can't armor my head--"

He didn't switch out of the yellow until after he beat the Mutant leader and Carrie was patrolling with him as Robin. Cynics would say it was because he then had a living target to draw the fire away so he could afford to do away with it.

hey, that outfit got messed up. and he told her to get out of sight, even if he didn't fire her after she disobeyed... oh damnit. batman wanted her dead!

[mgs]

Why doesn't Batman dance anymore? I used to dance a mean Batusi.

:D I miss the sideways frames, I always felt like they were going to slip any moment, and they never did. Why don't the comics have more slanted frames?!? ;)

[Starba]

Thank god the multiverse is coming back. If they do it right, maybe we can all get our generation's Batman and read it with a lot less eye-rolly all around.

[the goddamn batman]

Frank drew Bats in the blue and grey with the yellow oval because he had to, not because he wanted to. Editorial made him do it. So he tried to explain the ridiculous yellow oval. Once the book was selling like mad, Frank was able to change the costume to the one he liked, and apparently no one noticed. That's his story anyway.

[mattx110]

Frank drew Bats in the blue and grey with the yellow oval because he had to, not because he wanted to. Editorial made him do it. So he tried to explain the ridiculous yellow oval. Once the book was selling like mad, Frank was able to change the costume to the one he liked, and apparently no one noticed. That's his story anyway.

the old costume got messed up... there's a plausible instory explanation. alfred was tired of sewing.

[David Walton]

My favorite look for Batman is the eighties and early nineties Batman. Another poster already said this, but grey and blue can become darker in shadows. But it really provides a more interesting contrast. And since some of Batman's darkest stories have worked while he had the oval ("Death in the Family", "Batman: Year Three" and "A Lonely Place of Dying") I don't think anyone could argue that the blue and grey makes readers take Batman less seriously. You have to play to the medium, and the blue and grey provides more artistic opportunities.

[the goddamn batman]

And since some of Batman's darkest stories have worked while he had the oval ("Death in the Family", "Batman: Year Three" and "A Lonely Place of Dying") I don't think anyone could argue that the blue and grey makes readers take Batman less seriously.

Actually, I have a rather hard time taking A Death in the Family seriously. Sure, Jason got the shit beaten out of him, but the whole running around in the day, in the desert, and the Joker as an ambassador were all too silly, and ruined what could have been a fantastic story.

You have to play to the medium, and the blue and grey provides more artistic opportunities.

How? As an artist myself, I fail to see how the blue and grey offers any more or less artistic opportunities than the black and grey.

[David Walton]

Because you can make grey and blue darker in the shadows if you choose, and it contributes to the premise that Batman is an idea--he figuratively becomes darker "at will".

[Citizen V]

I sort of miss the oval around the Bat logo,but in a way..Bruce`s costume looks better without it.

[Buried Alien]

I felt that the blue and grey costume and the yellow oval lent itself better to "action-oriented" Batman. Many of my favorite Batman action scenes over the years were illustrated by Jim Aparo and featured Batman wearing the blue and grey costume with the yellow oval. This is comics and not animation, but somehow that color scheme for Batman gave an impression of "fluid motion" despite the fact that it was still pictures. The darker costume without the oval makes Batman seem more static somehow.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Floyd The Barber]

I miss the blue grey, yellow symbol Batman as well. That's just the classic Batman look. At what point did they faze that out of the regular titles anyway? Can anyone nail it down to an exact year/period?

[Buried Alien]

I miss the blue grey, yellow symbol Batman as well. That's just the classic Batman look. At what point did they faze that out of the regular titles anyway? Can anyone nail it down to an exact year/period?

The blue and grey colored uniform disappeared after Dick Grayson wore it during his short stint as Batman in PRODIGAL in late 1994/early 1995. When Bruce returned as Batman after his nearly two-year absence during KNIGHTFALL, the yellow oval stayed, but the costume became ALL black (which I actually kind of liked).

The all-black costume and the yellow oval were both retired after NO MAN'S LAND ended in 2000.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[mattx110]

The blue and grey colored uniform disappeared after Dick Grayson wore it during his short stint as Batman in PRODIGAL in late 1994/early 1995. When Bruce returned as Batman after his nearly two-year absence during KNIGHTFALL, the yellow oval stayed, but the costume became ALL black (which I actually kind of liked).

The all-black costume and the yellow oval were both retired after NO MAN'S LAND ended in 2000.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

i didn't like the all-black much at all. too slimming...

[Floyd The Barber]

The blue and grey colored uniform disappeared after Dick Grayson wore it during his short stint as Batman in PRODIGAL in late 1994/early 1995. When Bruce returned as Batman after his nearly two-year absence during KNIGHTFALL, the yellow oval stayed, but the costume became ALL black (which I actually kind of liked).

The all-black costume and the yellow oval were both retired after NO MAN'S LAND ended in 2000.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Thanks much! I knew it had been a while. They should bring it back.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batsignal.jpg

Good riddance!

[Captain Jim]

Whoever would have thought that such a minor thing (IMO) would evoke such strong emotions? Keep the discussion going, if you wish, but let's watch our tempers.

[Captain Jim]

Bring back the yellow oval? Naw. AOL Time Warner DC comics have found that they can now trademark a plain bat symbol. They don't have any need of the yellow oval anymore.

Really, was there any other reason they changed it in the first place? Why should a corperate logo be the center of Batman's suit? Geez. Can't we just leave that in the 80s?

I was long of the opinion that it was strictly a trademark issue, but I think Julie Schwartz contested that a few years ago. Julie, of course, was Batman editor during the "new look" period that began under his leadership in 1964. I believe Julie claimed that the change was strictly to help visualize the fact that the character had changed.

[mattx110]

I was long of the opinion that it was strictly a trademark issue, but I think Julie Schwartz contested that a few years ago. Julie, of course, was Batman editor during the "new look" period that began under his leadership in 1964. I believe Julie claimed that the change was strictly to help visualize the fact that the character had changed.

either way, it's nice to have variety.
spiderman has had some silly and kickass costumes in his time. but there needs to be that drive to try something new, even if it's only "with oval, or without oval".

i like the ovalized style bat with the rounded wings without the oval too. that looks real cool. i can't remember if robinson and sale's "blades" had that or the oval. and i know jim lee did his bat like that sometimes. it's emblematic like the oval one, but without the yellow.

[Rylon]

Whoever would have thought that such a minor thing (IMO) would evoke such strong emotions?I hate to tell you this Captian Jim, but no matter where you go or who you talk to, it's just a variation on Emacs vs vi.

:D

[Starba]

either way, it's nice to have variety.
spiderman has had some silly and kickass costumes in his time. but there needs to be that drive to try something new, even if it's only "with oval, or without oval".

i like the ovalized style bat with the rounded wings without the oval too. that looks real cool. i can't remember if robinson and sale's "blades" had that or the oval. and i know jim lee did his bat like that sometimes. it's emblematic like the oval one, but without the yellow.

I'm not completely against the idea of Batman changing his costume every once and awhile, but since the costume he wears is so strongly tied to his characterization at the time he wore it, that almost insinuates that changing your personality is as easy as changing your clothes. As if we weren't having a hard enough time making sense of Batverse continuity nowadays...

Maybe it's asking too much, but again I really really hope the Multiverse solves this sort of flux problem. I feel like the DCU never left the reign of Emperor Joker sometimes.

[dupersuper]

Actually, I have a rather hard time taking A Death in the Family seriously.

My favourite part was Batmans' line; "This way; I've a land rover." I dare you to say that line without a british accent...

[Super Buddies Forever]

Hey, I grew up with the yellow oval too, but I'm of the mind that if you really want to go an ultra-realistic route than you need to get rid of any bat symbol whatsoever. Why would a creature of the night have a small insignia of said creature on his chest anyway?

That's why the yellow being ridiculous doesn't bother me. Any superhero branding on Batman is effectively ridiculous when you deconstruct it.

[mattx110]

I'm not completely against the idea of Batman changing his costume every once and awhile, but since the costume he wears is so strongly tied to his characterization at the time he wore it, that almost insinuates that changing your personality is as easy as changing your clothes. As if we weren't having a hard enough time making sense of Batverse continuity nowadays...

Maybe it's asking too much, but again I really really hope the Multiverse solves this sort of flux problem. I feel like the DCU never left the reign of Emperor Joker sometimes.

well, i don't see a big enough fashion statement between a black bat and a black bat with a yellow oval. though if batman turns back to perriwinkle blue and light grey with silly boots i'd be more on your side. right now i'm more against the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach, because we're not reading comics to see everything turn out well every time. ongoing formats lets you play with new approaches and keep the original flavor, while a one-off deal (novel or movie) can't have that constant duality unless it helps the tone of the book.

and yea, it seems like DC is a bit more obvious with creating characters and events with the sole purpose of retcon. after HoM got some heat on it for having it's own reset button, civil war seems to have changed quite a bit without having to say what was and wasn't canon anymore. we got to see things change rather than be told they were different.
the "Flux" should be sorted out soon i guess, but if you ignore the tumult, paul dini is still writing a bat-title pretty well.

[Floyd The Barber]

My favourite part was Batmans' line; "This way; I've a land rover." I dare you to say that line without a british accent...

LMAO!

Wasn't Joker wearing a turban in part of that story? Sometimes you can tell that DC really never thought the story would end with Robin dying. (Well...sorta)

[Choppa]

The yellow oval does make sense. It distracts his enemies since that's what they focus on first, and he can avoid them shooting at his head.

[Alan2099]

Well, it's either that big yellow oval stands out in the dark, or that light fleshy part of his face, and it's a lot easier to armor the oval.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The yellow oval does make sense. It distracts his enemies since that's what they focus on first, and he can avoid them shooting at his head.


I disagree.
Ask anyone who has ever been to a firing range and he´ll tell you: shooting the chest is much easier than hitting the head.
That´s what they teach at the military: "aim for the center of the body mass."
99,999(9)% of close range encounters, armed people shoot for the center of the body mass, the chest- because it´s easier than aiming for a smaller target like the head or an arm-..
If Bats were so worried about taking a bullet to the head, he´d put on a helmet instead of sticking a yellow target right in the middle of his chest.


Well, it's either that big yellow oval stands out in the dark, or that light fleshy part of his face, and it's a lot easier to armor the oval.

That makes absolutely no sense.

If the objective is to divert fire from the exposed mouth area,then he should just cover up the exposed mouth area like Batgirl does instead of creating yet another target right in the middle of his chest.

[BeastieRunner]

I do not miss the giant target on his chest.

[Starba]

...says the man with the shiny green Batman in his avatar. :p

[BeastieRunner]

...says the man with the shiny green Batman in his avatar. :p

Haha! Indeed but in my defense, who cares what you look like when you have a power ring?

[Starba]

Haha! Indeed but in my defense, who cares what you look like when you have a power ring?

Too true. ;)

[Rupertmetal]

I like Batman the most with a gray suit, blue cape and cowl, gauntlets, boots and underwear haha and the big, black bat on his chest.

However, what I think is funny is that people are saying his yellow and black symbol is unrealistic because it is a bright color, yellow, but if you think that then shouldn't his utility belt be changed to black to match his symbol? Or at least grey or blue?

If they were gonna make his utility belt a dark color I'd like it to be black to match his symbol on his chest.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yup, the belt should be darkened as well and the exposed portion of the face should be covered.
Jury´s still out on the glowing eyes.

And while we´re at it, the Bat suit is not scary at all.
Stylish? Sure. Scary? Not so much.

I´d freak out if I saw Man-Bat in a dark alley.
Batman? Not likely. The panties on the outside kinda dwindle the fear factor. :rolleyes:

[Starba]

They could just dull the belt to a yellow-gray like they do in Justice League Unlimited and B:TNAS.

I really like those designs, actually.

[phantom1592]

As much as I always liked his mask, THAT is the most illogical part of the costume. Not the belt and not the oval, the mask. He should have always had a helmet liked the original Az-bats. Remember who he is supposed to be. Millionaire playboy. His face is VERY important. How many excuses can you come up with for black eyes, or split lips, or flash burns on your jaw. That whole head should be protected. Imagine if everytime you saw him Donald trump had a new bruise on his face. It would be pretty similiar.

[EpitomeSexyDude]

Eh. I don't mind the plain bat.

[mgs]

As much as I always liked his mask, THAT is the most illogical part of the costume. Not the belt and not the oval, the mask. He should have always had a helmet liked the original Az-bats. Remember who he is supposed to be. Millionaire playboy. His face is VERY important. How many excuses can you come up with for black eyes, or split lips, or flash burns on your jaw. That whole head should be protected. Imagine if everytime you saw him Donald trump had a new bruise on his face. It would be pretty similiar.

This is a good point. BUT you realize that maybe he doesn't have to be like a Trump. I mean, the guy who 'recently' sold his Virgin empire is apparently an adrenaline junkie, doing all sorts of crazy stunts, so maybe, in a superhero world, Bruce would more fit the mold of someone who is rich and famous, but really, not in the public eye too much. I could not pick the former Virgin owner out of a lineup. And yes, I know, in Gotham he is very famous, but still, just maybe.???....

[TheWraith]

Again, I will say...yellow oval or not...does it really matter either way?

[Choppa]

I disagree.
Ask anyone who has ever been to a firing range and he´ll tell you: shooting the chest is much easier than hitting the head.
That´s what they teach at the military: "aim for the center of the body mass."
99,999(9)% of close range encounters, armed people shoot for the center of the body mass, the chest- because it´s easier than aiming for a smaller target like the head or an arm-..
If Bats were so worried about taking a bullet to the head, he´d put on a helmet instead of sticking a yellow target right in the middle of his chest.



Well if you're saying that it's easier to go for the chest, then why do you disagree?

A person who sees someone like Batman in the dark is instincitvely going to react by aiming for the big yellow spot that they see in the big mass of blackness.

Obviously someone who isn't as easily scared would aim for the head, but the oval is for the average thug who doesn't know anything.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Well if you're saying that it's easier to go for the chest, then why do you disagree?

A person who sees someone like Batman in the dark is instincitvely going to react by aiming for the big yellow spot that they see in the big mass of blackness.

Obviously someone who isn't as easily scared would aim for the head, but the oval is for the average thug who doesn't know anything.

Look at the two images below:

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batsignal2.jpg

WHY are you giving "A person who sees someone like Batman in the dark" a bright yellow targe right in the middle of the chest for him to aim at?

[malephoenix]

I'm glad it's gone.

[trickster]

It didn't make an ounce of sense, if you think about it. "We will teach you to become truly invisible. But first, you must understand that having a glowing yellow oval on your chest will kinda hamper your efforts to do so".

[Slortex]

I like the oval, most likely for nostalgic/sentimental reasons. The argument against the oval for practical reasons doesn't really hold water, given Batman's cloak. He could easily pull it so it covered the symbol. Hell, he could paint a bullseye on his ass and most of Gotham's underworld would have no idea. But I digress. When Bats needs to be stealthy, he can cover up the symbol with the cape. When he's forced to stand and fight, the symbol draws fire to where he's protected.

[Alan2099]

It didn't make an ounce of sense, if you think about it. "We will teach you to become truly invisible. But first, you must understand that having a glowing yellow oval on your chest will kinda hamper your efforts to do so".

Well, if he's trying to remain invisible, what's the point of havign a scary costume to begin with? And even then, why dos he leave his mouth exposed?

Batman has always relied pretty strongly on theatrics, and a symbol on his chest isn't any more likely to get spotted than his bare face. Even less really, since he can cover the symbol pretty easily.

[trickster]

Well, if he's trying to remain invisible, what's the point of havign a scary costume to begin with?

I don't see the connection. Scary does not mean visible. You're comparing apples and stones.

And if Eliseu's post isn't enough to disprove your statement, nothing will. I burst into laughter when I saw it.

[dancj]

That whole idea of the oval drawing fire away from his face just doesn't work. Most people fighting against Batman aren't going to be good enough shots while he's darting around to choose whether they're shooting his chest or his head - they're just going to point in the general direction and hope for the best. In those circumstances he's best off not giving them a general direction to shoot at that's so close to his head.

[Captain Jim]

The thing to keep in mind is, the yellow oval was not created to be a target. It was created for other reasons entirely. However, since Batman creators felt "stuck" with it for many years (unless they were writing a story from early in Bruce's career), Frank Miller ultimately came up with the "target" line as an attempt to make sense of something that was inherently senseless.

[Choppa]

WHY are you giving "A person who sees someone like Batman in the dark" a bright yellow targe right in the middle of the chest for him to aim at?

So that they don't aim at the head, which is what I said in my original post.

I'm not advocating the idea, I'm simply saying that that explanation exists.

[Buried Alien]

One thing about the yellow oval is that while it is indeed yellow, nobody has ever said that it is neon, shiny, glow-in-the-dark yellow (although some artists depict it that way more for *readers'* benefit than to actually reflect what it might look like in the real world). In a really dark room, which is similar to the night shadows where Batman operates, do you really know if a shirt in that room is yellow, red, or blue? Not if it's really dark, you don't.

Moreover, the yellow oval is a legacy of a time when Batman seemed to operate as often during daylight hours as he did during the night, so the point of "cover of darkness" is a bit moot anyway.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Interesting observation, Ken. Indeed, the "New Look" Batman who *first* sported the yellow oval operated primarily in the daytime, not the night. But I fail to see how it follows from that that the current Batman, who *is* primarily a night operative should have the oval.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So that they don't aim at the head, which is what I said in my original post.

I'm not advocating the idea, I'm simply saying that that explanation exists.

I feel like I´m taking crazy pills or something... :cool:


When you are trying to be stealthy, putting a yellow target on your chest so the enemy doesn´t shoot you in the head makes absolutely no sense.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/cammo01.jpg

[Captain Jim]

Y'know, it seems like we keep saying the same things over and over. Does anyone have anything new to add? Because, if not, I'm starting to think about closing the thread.

[mattx110]

Y'know, it seems like we keep saying the same things over and over. Does anyone have anything new to add? Because, if not, I'm starting to think about closing the thread.

how would anyone feel about a new color bat? a blue bat perhaps?
maybe something red?

[The Batman]

Well isn't the yellow oval the same shade of yellow as the yellow utility belt? If the oval makes him such a target then shouldn't th utility belt make him a target too?

[dancj]

Ah so maybe the yellow target is to stop him getting his balls blown off!

[The Batman]

It's not so wrong that he'd rather get shot in the chest where he's got armour than the nuts, no?

[Buried Alien]

I feel like I´m taking crazy pills or something... :cool:


When you are trying to be stealthy, putting a yellow target on your chest so the enemy doesn´t shoot you in the head makes absolutely no sense.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/cammo01.jpg

Would those yellow spots really be so bright and visible if they were actually a part of those soldiers' fatigues rather than added into the image via computer? I doubt it. Similarly, check out the yellow oval on the Michael Keaton Batman costume from the 1989 movie. Did it really stand out that much in the darkness?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[The Batman]

It doesn't really seem to be standing out much more than the utility belt or the exposed parts of his face.


http://www.batmanprologue.com/michael_keaton7.jpg


http://www.starman-imaging.com/aug05/batretn2028a.jpg


http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Ss/0096895/BATMAN6.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/abg1777/batman_returns_pic_018.jpg

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I see you´ve changed the line of defense.

You´re essentially discarding the "bright yellow target" idea in favour a "the yellow is not bright enough to stand out/glow in the dark".

Good.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batsignal03.jpg

[mattx110]

I see you´ve changed the line of defense.

You´re essentially discarding the "bright yellow target" idea in favour a "the yellow is not bright enough to stand out/glow in the dark".

Good.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batsignal03.jpg

HEY! that's one of my favorite comics ever. incredible artist! and robin got to deal with real life.
breyfogle needs a bat-title and fast.
something prestige format.
and in comics, the yellow bat is cool. it might not make sense that it glows, but you damn sure know it's batman and not a shadow when you see that oval with a bat imprint. and that's a cooler visual than a shadow with ears.

[Ricardo]

Batman without the oval is a nice change.

[Choppa]

I feel like I´m taking crazy pills or something... :cool:


When you are trying to be stealthy, putting a yellow target on your chest so the enemy doesn´t shoot you in the head makes absolutely no sense.


Ooookay. Well it's like this. When you shoot at an area on somebody's body that is unprotected, they will die. But if you shoot at an area that is protected by armor, then you have a better chance of not dying.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Ooookay. Well it's like this. When you shoot at an area on somebody's body that is unprotected, they will die. But if you shoot at an area that is protected by armor, then you have a better chance of not dying.

What makes you think every person who Batman faces is a top notch shooter who will hit the yellow target?

Why do you think the military doesn´t equip its personnel with yellow targets in the chest?
Because when you are trying to be stealthy and go unnoticed, the last thing you want is a mark in your chest advertising your postition.

Without the yellow target, 99% chances are they´d just hit his cape- and that is if they´r ereally, I mean REALLY good shots.
http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batcammo1.gif

But with a yellow mark to lock on, even the worst shooter has a slight chance of hitting something, be it a leg, an arm, his abdomien or, if they´re really, I mean REALLY-REALLY good... the yellow mark!

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batcammo2.gif

[Hellstormer]

HEY! that's one of my favorite comics ever. incredible artist! and robin got to deal with real life.
breyfogle needs a bat-title and fast.
something prestige format.
and in comics, the yellow bat is cool. it might not make sense that it glows, but you damn sure know it's batman and not a shadow when you see that oval with a bat imprint. and that's a cooler visual than a shadow with ears.
He doesn't wanna be seen, he's a ninja.:)

[mattx110]

He doesn't wanna be seen, he's a ninja.:)

he's also a superhero.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

he's also a superhero.

What does that has to do with anything?

"- In combat, thanks to my ninja training, I use the shadows of the night to my advantage.
But since I´m a superhero, I must.............................."

What, exactly?

Wear bright yellow tights to denounce his location?
Stamp a yellow target dead in the chest to advertise his position?

[mattx110]

What does that has to do with anything?

"- In combat, thanks to my ninja training, I use the shadows of the night to my advantage.
But since I´m a superhero, I must.............................."

What, exactly?

Wear bright yellow tights to denounce his location?
Stamp a yellow target dead in the chest to advertise his position?

have a symbol so when some innocent fool is running from criminals and he sees this huge black shadowy mass he doesn't have a heartattack because he can see the yellow bat outline.

ninjas are all stealthy, but superheroes have a responsibility to be at least a little flashy so that innocents feel safer. if you can't tell the good guys from the bad, you're screwed. so the good guys need to be identifiable.

he comes from two worlds. one with smoke grenades and black leather, the other with capes and black spandex.

[phantom1592]

Based on this debate, I've determined that Bruce REALLY hated Robin.


REALLY HATED him.





He must cry every night knowing Dick wasn't killed.:)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

have a symbol so when some innocent fool is running from criminals and he sees this huge black shadowy mass he doesn't have a heartattack because he can see the yellow bat outline.

ninjas are all stealthy, but superheroes have a responsibility to be at least a little flashy so that innocents feel safer. if you can't tell the good guys from the bad, you're screwed. so the good guys need to be identifiable.

he comes from two worlds. one with smoke grenades and black leather, the other with capes and black spandex.

That does totally make sense.
"Criminals are a cowardly lot, so I´ll use a scary dark mask to terrorise them. But since inocent people may see me as well, I´ll better use bright cheerful colors not to scare them."

So that´s why Freddy Kruger uses such a cheerful shirt.

http://www.kilu-comicfiguren.de/shop/images/neca11freddybust.jpg


Based on this debate, I've determined that Bruce REALLY hated Robin.


REALLY HATED him.





He must cry every night knowing Dick wasn't killed.:)

He does tend to bring minors into the frontline often.....

[mattx110]

That does totally make sense.
"Criminals are a cowardly lot, so I´ll use a scary dark mask to terrorise them. But since inocent people may see me as well, I´ll better use bright cheerful colors not to scare them."

So that´s why Freddy Kruger uses such a cheerful shirt.

http://www.kilu-comicfiguren.de/shop/images/neca11freddybust.jpg




He does tend to bring minors into the frontline often.....

criminals should know to fear the yellow bat thingy.
good people should know they have nothing to worry about.
if i saw a dark shadowy thing moving about i'd get scared.
if i noticed that he was superman's buddy who fights the joker to protect me and my city...

the freddy kreuger example has no correlation to this. a psycho in a striped sweater is scary. so is a ninja with glowing eyes and a bat emblem. only one is devoted to saving lives and stopping criminals. i'm not saying the bat symbol inherently notifies the public "i'm a good guy" but a decade or two history of helping gotham and being in the JLA is a clue.
the context is important, and to ignore that is to ignore the point of having a symbol at all.


and bruce wanted dick to dress darker.
just not enough to do anything about it. it's not like he was his legal guardian who could withold access from the batcave until dick decided on a better costume, or anything.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

criminals should know to fear the yellow bat thingy.
good people should know they have nothing to worry about.
if i saw a dark shadowy thing moving about i'd get scared.
if i noticed that he was superman's buddy who fights the joker to protect me and my city...

the freddy kreuger example has no correlation to this. a psycho in a striped sweater is scary. so is a ninja with glowing eyes and a bat emblem. only one is devoted to saving lives and stopping criminals. i'm not saying the bat symbol inherently notifies the public "i'm a good guy" but a decade or two history of helping gotham and being in the JLA is a clue.
the context is important, and to ignore that is to ignore the point of having a symbol at all.


and bruce wanted dick to dress darker.
just not enough to do anything about it. it's not like he was his legal guardian who could withold access from the batcave until dick decided on a better costume, or anything.

You can´t have "selective scaryness".
It´s likie having the cake and eating it.
You´re either scary or you´re not.
A guy in a tight spandex suit with a yellow target painted on the chest is not scary.
A dark creature of the night who strikes at you from the darkness if you misbehave is.

[phantom1592]

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batcammo1.gif

But with a yellow mark to lock on, even the worst shooter has a slight chance of hitting something, be it a leg, an arm, his abdomien or, if they´re really, I mean REALLY-REALLY good... the yellow mark!

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/batcammo2.gif



these are cool. Can you do one with Robin added in? THAT would be funny comparison :)

[phantom1592]

You can´t have "selective scaryness".
It´s likie having the cake and eating it.
You´re either scary or you´re not.
A guy in a tight spandex suit with a yellow target painted on the chest is not scary.
A dark creature of the night who strikes at you from the darkness if you misbehave is.

Actually a guy in a pink tutu can be scary if he has Batmans reputation for seriously hurting people ;)

I stand by that Batman WANTS to be seen. What is the point of a scary costume at all if he strikes from the shadows and knocks a guy out before he sees him. He wants them to see that symbol in their nightmares, branded in their memory. The cape and the ears are very cumbersome. If he wanted to strike from the shadows, he would have gone more traditional ninja.

[mattx110]

You can´t have "selective scaryness".
It´s likie having the cake and eating it.
You´re either scary or you´re not.
A guy in a tight spandex suit with a yellow target painted on the chest is not scary.
A dark creature of the night who strikes at you from the darkness if you misbehave is.

umm.. lemme put it this way. a guy who dresses in black and strikes from the shadows, who once you get close enough to you can see a yellow batsymbol on is still scary. the symbol doesn't make him less frightening.
but he's also got the option of having innocent people see his bat so they don't get scared and know to run away because something bad is likely to happen.
the same symbol that scares the crap out of criminals, is reassuring to others.
but he also has the option of using his cape (in a way that can only be done effectively in fiction) to cover the yellow and just be a dark shadowy object in an alley of dark shadowy objects. he did this kinda thing quite often in the allblack suit days. half the time kelley jones drew him as a black mass with big ears and glowing eyes.

a ninja with a batsymbol and darty things and a belt of ways to hurt you is scary unless you know who his target is and you're not it.

plus, he's a brand. when he gets his JLA photo-op he needs defining characteristics other than wearing black. criminals wear black too, but they don't have batsymbols on them (and if they do, batman will take care of them pretty quick).

a nice compromise would be if he has a brighter suit with the yellow for "bank jobs" and superhero issues where he doesn't care about hiding. and a darker suit for espionage detective angled stories.
he used to switch between kevlar and silk depending on how many rooftops he'd have to scale.

[mgs]

I think that the animation that Eliseu did was great but, it also does not address how Batman functions. He's not one to attack from great distances, or like the sniper pic that was posted. He is a very close combatant, much in the way a knife fighter works. He uses his stealth to get in close, then attack. And I think that's where his fear and yellow oval come into play.

If someone comes up close to you very quickly and without warning, and your purpose is to instill fear in them, then you purposfully want to show yourself eventually, and in that respect, having the yellow oval would be key, because it does allow someone to quickly focus in on it, when you are at point blank range to them, while allowing them to remain blinded to how you are trying to take them down.

Sure, it's unrelaistic to say that he could get in real close to everyone in the dark, but it seems to be his prefered method of attack.

[Alan2099]

Actually, visually the symbol in the animation makes the thing work a lot beter, even if it doesn't make complete sense. It adds a touch of color that spices things upm and adds eneergy to them, making them easier to see and more dynamic.

I mean, if you're going to argue what's more realistic, choosign a billionaire that puts on tights and a cape and swings around the city doesn't cut it no matter if he's got a yellow symbol, a black symbol, or a pink and pruple poka dotted one.

Still, I find this very intresting that when Batman Begins came out, there was quite a few complaints about his symbol not being easy enough to see and now we're getting people shouting that you're not suposed to see the symbol anyway.

Which kina defeats he purpose of having one if you ask me.

[mattx110]

Actually, visually the symbol in the animation makes the thing work a lot beter, even if it doesn't make complete sense. It adds a touch of color that spices things upm and adds eneergy to them, making them easier to see and more dynamic.

I mean, if you're going to argue what's more realistic, choosign a billionaire that puts on tights and a cape and swings around the city doesn't cut it no matter if he's got a yellow symbol, a black symbol, or a pink and pruple poka dotted one.

Still, I find this very intresting that when Batman Begins came out, there was quite a few complaints about his symbol not being easy enough to see and now we're getting people shouting that you're not suposed to see the symbol anyway.

Which kina defeats he purpose of having one if you ask me.
hey, if you don't see the symbol, how do you know it's batman?
plenty of guys in the DCU wearing capes who could kick your ass for stealing.

i think if batman were real smart, he'd wear brass knuckles that would imprint batsymbols on the face of the guy he punched out so he'd know for sure who he got punched out by.

[Kristofer]

here's an absurd antidote....
what about Superman ? He dresses all over in bright colours of red, yellow, and blue..and yet criminals are still frightened of him (and Im sure someone out there will say "well Hell, Superman doesnt die from bullets, or whatever) still....it's his mere prescence. Im sure if Clark Kent of The Daily Bugle came jumping off the top of a building no one would give a care, but a guy dressed in flashy tights...
kinda similar, kinda not...but still the flashiness helps out somewhat.

[mattx110]

here's an absurd antidote....
what about Superman ? He dresses all over in bright colours of red, yellow, and blue..and yet criminals are still frightened of him (and Im sure someone out there will say "well Hell, Superman doesnt die from bullets, or whatever) still....it's his mere prescence. Im sure if Clark Kent of The Daily Bugle came jumping off the top of a building no one would give a care, but a guy dressed in flashy tights...
kinda similar, kinda not...but still the flashiness helps out somewhat.

meanwhile, how b@d@$$ would it be for clark to pull a murdock and take on 50 superspeed superpowered guys at the same time on the roof of the Daily ahem Planet, while still in his suit and tie with his glasses on.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Wearing a yellow target so people can recognise him is absurd.

If there is one character who can be insta-recognised just by his sillhouette, it´s him.

What, do you think Gotham citizens say when they see those long ears and the dented cape?

"- It´s the JOKER!!!"

[bw38]

Just wanted to add a couple of things to this thread.
1-Batman is not a superhero. I don't know why he keeps getting called one. What superpowers does he have that would make him a superhero? Superman is a superhero. Green Latern is a superhero. Flash is a superhero. Batman is not.

2-(I know for sure in the animated series, but not too certain in the comics) Batman had a brown like utility belt, not the yellow belt. What's interesting is that he had the brown utility belt with the black and gray costume without yellow oval. I mean personally I feel he should have just gone with a black utility belt if he was going to go with brown rather than yellow. But that's another thing that hasn't really been mentioned here.

3-Can anyone explain why his eyes are white? I've never really understood that. In the movies they're never white, but in the comics they are. And yes I realize the movies are different from the comics and are more realistic than the comics, but it begs the question, how does Batman's eyes suddenly turn white, and if they don't turn white then how in the world can he see through it? Because the white that's used in the comics seems like the kind of white you get from printing paper or something like that (not see-through). Unless it's some special material. I've been curious about this one for a while.

[Alex Dragon]

I liked having the yellow oval. It's a dramatic visual element. I used to like seeing the image of a silhouetted Batman with his bat symbol pierceing through the black. The "target" argument doesn't hold up for me because his utility belt is yellow also. I guess being shot down their is a bit better than being shot in the chest but not by much.

[The Batman]

It is a dramatic visual element, or at least it can be. That's why it was chosen when they needed a trademarkable design element and that's why it's still around.

It seems really silly to argue superhero costume asthetics in terms of realism and stealth purposes. I mean, if that's the road we're going to go down then we should cover Batman's face cause his white skin is gonna give him away in the dark, better lose the Batmobile too and give him a plain unmarked car, and get rid of that long cape because if you think a yellow oval is going to give him away then wait till he trips over that thing.

[phantom1592]

3-Can anyone explain why his eyes are white? I've never really understood that. In the movies they're never white, but in the comics they are. And yes I realize the movies are different from the comics and are more realistic than the comics, but it begs the question, how does Batman's eyes suddenly turn white, and if they don't turn white then how in the world can he see through it? Because the white that's used in the comics seems like the kind of white you get from printing paper or something like that (not see-through). Unless it's some special material. I've been curious about this one for a while.



Well there are two answers.

1) Out of story version: The white eyes make him more "inhuman" and scary looking when he was first being designed.

2) In story version: He has special lenses that pop in place for different functions.

In the movies, all emotion and acting comes from the face and eyes, so they never tried to cover them up. Its the same reason Spiderman can't keep his mask on in important fight scenes. It HAS to be torn up to let the actor show expression.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It seems really silly to argue superhero costume asthetics in terms of realism and stealth purposes. I mean, if that's the road we're going to go down then we should cover Batman's face cause his white skin is gonna give him away in the dark, better lose the Batmobile too and give him a plain unmarked car, and get rid of that long cape because if you think a yellow oval is going to give him away then wait till he trips over that thing.

Now we´re getting somewhere.

[dupersuper]

Just wanted to add a couple of things to this thread.
1-Batman is not a superhero. I don't know why he keeps getting called one. What superpowers does he have that would make him a superhero? Superman is a superhero. Green Latern is a superhero. Flash is a superhero. Batman is not.



Green Lantern has no powers, just a ring...guess he's not a superhero either...

[mattx110]

the bat is only visible when he wants it to be.

it doesn't make him a target unless he's running out in the open in front of flood lights, in which case, it hopefully distracts from his open face.

i never liked the open mouth, but it's been around a while.

and batman works with the jla, fights supervillians with freeze guns and tons of other toys and powers. what makes him a superhero isn't that he has powers, but that he exists in that world.
a cop is a hero.
a vigilante who has a hanglider and a symbol to call him from his supercomputer run batcave is a superhero.

if you want to use your definition and pretend that everything batman does is in the realm of possiblilty for a regular "hero" that's your choice of definition, and you're right using your standards.

this whole argument isn't what is better, but how people prefer to perceive batman.

and saying "The whole argument is meaningless because it's fiction" doesn't really help. you're just encouraging people not to share their opinion, and that's never a good thing. we're attempting to interpret the whole situation within the fictional world, and inerject our preferred degree of reality. there's no right answer as far as i'm concerned, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about the questions and discuss it.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

the bat is only visible when he wants it to be.

it doesn't make him a target unless he's running out in the open in front of flood lights, in which case, it hopefully distracts from his open face.

i never liked the open mouth, but it's been around a while.

and batman works with the jla, fights supervillians with freeze guns and tons of other toys and powers. what makes him a superhero isn't that he has powers, but that he exists in that world.
a cop is a hero.
a vigilante who has a hanglider and a symbol to call him from his supercomputer run batcave is a superhero.

if you want to use your definition and pretend that everything batman does is in the realm of possiblilty for a regular "hero" that's your choice of definition, and you're right using your standards.

this whole argument isn't what is better, but how people prefer to perceive batman.

and saying "The whole argument is meaningless because it's fiction" doesn't really help. you're just encouraging people not to share their opinion, and that's never a good thing. we're attempting to interpret the whole situation within the fictional world, and inerject our preferred degree of reality. there's no right answer as far as i'm concerned, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't think about the questions and discuss it.


The "they only see the yellow target when he wants them to see it" is absurd.

If Batman gets involved in a fight, he´s gonna have to fight with his feet because his hands wikl be too busy covering the yellow target n his chest. :D

[The Batman]

If Batman gets into a fight he doesn't need to worry about being sneaky since they'll know he's there what with all the fists and what not hitting them.

[mattx110]

The "they only see the yellow target when he wants them to see it" is absurd.

If Batman gets involved in a fight, he´s gonna have to fight with his feet because his hands wikl be too busy covering the yellow target n his chest. :D

the batman already said it. but if you're close enough that batman can't hide in the shadows, you're probably unconscious.

[The Batman]

Originally Posted by The Batman
It seems really silly to argue superhero costume asthetics in terms of realism and stealth purposes. I mean, if that's the road we're going to go down then we should cover Batman's face cause his white skin is gonna give him away in the dark, better lose the Batmobile too and give him a plain unmarked car, and get rid of that long cape because if you think a yellow oval is going to give him away then wait till he trips over that thing.


Now we´re getting somewhere.

So the problem for you really isn't Batman having a yellow oval Bat-symbol, it's Batman looking like Batman.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So the problem for you really isn't Batman having a yellow oval Bat-symbol, it's Batman looking like Batman.


What?
Where did that come from?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

If Batman gets into a fight he doesn't need to worry about being sneaky since they'll know he's there what with all the fists and what not hitting them.

the batman already said it. but if you're close enough that batman can't hide in the shadows, you're probably unconscious.


Please don´t nmake me go through ALL the comics where Bayman engages gangsters in close combat under the cover of the dark while people are shooting at him.

[mattx110]

Please don´t nmake me go through ALL the comics where Bayman engages gangsters in close combat under the cover of the dark while people are shooting at him.

and of that, how many times has a gangster shot him because he had a symbol on his chest?

[Choppa]

What makes you think every person who Batman faces is a top notch shooter who will hit the yellow target?

Without the yellow target, 99% chances are they´d just hit his cape- and that is if they´r ereally, I mean REALLY good shots.

But with a yellow mark to lock on, even the worst shooter has a slight chance of hitting something, be it a leg, an arm, his abdomien or, if they´re really, I mean REALLY-REALLY good... the yellow mark!

No one said anything about hitting him. It's there to distract them and draw attention away from his least protected part (head) and towards other areas (leg,stomach), because as you even said yourself, that chances of actually hitting the oval are slim.

[90'sCartoonMan]

how would anyone feel about a new color bat? a blue bat perhaps?
maybe something red?

Nightwing's got the blue down, and both Batwoman and Terry-Bats have the red. Their bats are a big larger and don't need an oval of any kind. I think the red bat on black is actually cooler looking than either black bat or yellow oval. But for Batman, I don't think he should have another color.

Wearing a yellow target so people can recognise him is absurd.

If there is one character who can be insta-recognised just by his sillhouette, it´s him.

Unless it turns out to be Huntress.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

and of that, how many times has a gangster shot him because he had a symbol on his chest?


iAnd how many times has he tripped in his cape?

it´s what we here call PIS.

No one said anything about hitting him. It's there to distract them and draw attention away from his least protected part (head) and towards other areas (leg,stomach), because as you even said yourself, that chances of actually hitting the oval are slim.

Oh, so it´s not MEANT to hit him.´
You should have said so earlier.
I´m sure every gangster in Gotham has received the memo:
"If you see Batman, don´t use the target in his chest to correct your aim".


Unless it turns out to be Huntress.

A large man in a black cape and a curvaceous woman dressed like a stripper.... I can see how Gotham denizens would be confused. :rolleyes:

[Buried Alien]

You know, Eliseu, instead of devising 101 patronizing ways to disparage the opinions of those who prefer that Batman wear the yellow oval and believe that no fatal suspension of disbelief is required to accept it, why not just straight out say you don't like the yellow oval and be done with it?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Rylon]

I like the oval. When it was in use, it was great shorthand for determining when a certain story took place in Batman's history. If he were using the oval-less bat, you knew the story took place early in his career...at a time no later than just after he had recruited Dick Grayson as Robin and joined the Justice League. When the original Multiverse was in operation, it was also an easy way to distinguish the Earth-One Batman from the Earth-Two Batman.I can take or leave the yellow oval. Between the 90s and Elseworlds, I've seen enough Batman costumes that I think it's more the silhouette than the yellow oval that makes Batman's costume.

That said, I you're right about using the costume to delineate specific periods in Batman's career. Just compare the covers of Batman 656 and Batman Confidential #2

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0605/15/batman656.jpg http://dallas.caramelcomics.com/catalog/images/batman-confidential-00211.jpg

The costume designs are identical, but Batman Confidential #2 takes place in, IIRC, Batman's 2nd year; Batman #656 takes place a little over a year after IC. This begs the question: has Batman's history ben retconed so that he has had the same costume his entire career? Or was it different during different periods of his career? It would be interesting if his costume has never changed, but Robin's has.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

You know, Eliseu, instead of devising 101 patronizing ways to disparage the opinions of those who prefer that Batman wear the yellow oval and believe that no fatal suspension of disbelief is required to accept it, why not just straight out say you don't like the yellow oval and be done with it?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)


Honestly?
From a design standpoint, I have no prob with the yellow oval.

But for a terrifying creature of the night who haunts the shadows of Gotham City and preys upon the fears of the cowardly criminals, sorry but it´s just awful.

[Buried Alien]

I
That said, I you're right about using the costume to delineate specific periods in Batman's career. Just compare the covers of Batman 656 and Batman Confidential #2

http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0605/15/batman656.jpg http://dallas.caramelcomics.com/catalog/images/batman-confidential-00211.jpg

The costume designs are identical, but Batman Confidential #2 takes place in, IIRC, Batman's 2nd year; Batman #656 takes place a little over a year after IC. This begs the question: has Batman's history ben retconed so that he has had the same costume his entire career? Or was it different during different periods of his career? It would be interesting if his costume has never changed, but Robin's has.

They've gotten a bit careless with it lately, but here's how I think it goes:

From BATMAN: YEAR ONE until not long after Dick Grayson became the first Robin and Batman joined the original lineup of the Justice League of America: the original, oval-less costume.

The "Silver/Bronze Age" period that covers most of Dick Grayson's Robin career and the Satellite Era of the JLA through the end of the KNIGHTFALL Trilogy (which includes Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing, Jason Todd becoming the second Robin, the dissolution of the Satellite Era JLA, the founding of the Outsiders, the Crisis, the crippling of Barbara Gordon, the death of Jason Todd, the debut of Tim Drake as the third Robin, and the events of KNIGHTFALL up until after ZERO HOUR): the blue and grey costume with the yellow oval.

The Post-KNIGHTFALL era through the end of NO MAN'S LAND (includes the periods of CONTAGION, LEGACY, the FINAL NIGHT, the foundation of the Grant Morrison JLA, the Gotham quake and aftermath): the all-black costume with yellow oval.

Post-NO MAN'S LAND: the current costume, which seems to the a return to the first costume.

If they're going by this continuity scheme, the blue/grey yellow oval costume seems to have been the one that occupied the longest period of Batman's career.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Choppa]

I thought it was cool that he went back to the black bat after NML, but I think it can be a bit confusing.

[90'sCartoonMan]

A large man in a black cape and a curvaceous woman dressed like a stripper.... I can see how Gotham denizens would be confused. :rolleyes:

An issue of Birds of Prey established that Huntress casts a shadow that's similar to Batman's.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

An issue of Birds of Prey established that Huntress casts a shadow that's similar to Batman's.


And that´s the reason why he wears an yellow target?
So people can tell him apart from Huntress?

[mattx110]

And that´s the reason why he wears an yellow target?
So people can tell him apart from Huntress?

we get it, you don't like yellow.
if you think batman doesn't need another defining characteristic, that's ok.
but until the yellow symbol is shown to make it so he can't do his job, it makes sense in the story.

and regarding 90s cartoon man.

i know batwoman and mcginnis have the red, but i really like the red bat.
i've never seen it on a dark grey costume either instead of black. that might look cool.

edit: just want to clear up, you don't have to like it.
batmans gone through plenty of subtly and not so subtly different costumes.
i can't stand the all-black outfit, and thankfully, there are tons of stories with him in grey and black/blue.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

we get it, you don't like yellow.

Actually, yellow IS my favorite color. ;)
But not in Batman.
Same reason why Superman doesn´t work in muted, dark colors. He represents hope, the man of tomorrow.
He needs to wear vibrant, dashing colors, not fly around in a brown cape with a tiny S on his chest.



if you think batman doesn't need another defining characteristic, that's ok.
but until the yellow symbol is shown to make it so he can't do his job, it makes sense in the story.

I think Batman has plenty of defining characteristics.
The cape, the ears, the bat symbol on his chest if anyone gets close enough.
If anything, he needs to embrace his own legend.
He´s like Phantomas! Zorro! Count Dracula!
He´s a scary creature of the night, his whole M.O. relies on baddies fearing him.

He shouldn´t be wearing bright yellow targets in his chest, attending public events or being photographed next to the other silly people in silly costumes.

It ruins the "aura".

[Alan2099]

Zorro might be a bad example for you to use there. He was VERY flashy and took pride in being noticed and standing out. He just happened to wear dark clothes.

As for what you call the "aura", that's really one of the things I've hated about Batman for quite a while. I remember reading an older comic where he was talking about how he designed his costume so it would inspire fear in criminals AND hope in the common people. Writers just seem to have ditched that last part because hope isn't cool enough or something.

[The Batman]

Maybe Bruce Wayne put the yellow in the symbol so that people could see it, know for sure that Batman was coming at them and maybe give up without having to get beat up or so that the regular people in Gotham who weren't commiting crimes (all 5 of them) would know that he was there and they were safe.

That or maybe he figured that it wasn't going to hamper his ability to be stealthy, no more than that bright yellow utility belt would at any rate, and it looked cool. I mean what does having trunks or a bright belt or even a non-oval Bat symbol on his costume have to do with scaring criminals besides absolutely nothing?

That or maybe it's just there because it looks cool and doesn't make Batman less stealthy or scary in his world for the same reason that he doesn't trip over his cape in his world - because his world isn't real and trying to bring too much reality into it is just gonna make it alot less fun.

[mattx110]

Actually, yellow IS my favorite color. ;)
But not in Batman.
Same reason why Superman doesn´t work in muted, dark colors. He represents hope, the man of tomorrow.
He needs to wear vibrant, dashing colors, not fly around in a brown cape with a tiny S on his chest.




I think Batman has plenty of defining characteristics.
The cape, the ears, the bat symbol on his chest if anyone gets close enough.
If anything, he needs to embrace his own legend.
He´s like Phantomas! Zorro! Count Dracula!
He´s a scary creature of the night, his whole M.O. relies on baddies fearing him.

He shouldn´t be wearing bright yellow targets in his chest, attending public events or being photographed next to the other silly people in silly costumes.

It ruins the "aura".

i can live with this.
i like the yellow symbol, you don't think it works.
which is funny, because up intil very recently, i loved the grey and black, but i realized, that's just because it was so badass in DKR, and i associated the oval with the all-black costume, which i hate.
i like the grey with yellow batsymbol.

i think the only answer for the black trunks on the outside would be some kinda half and half grey/black pants. keep the black in there, but have it run along the leg, rather than look like underwear.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Zorro might be a bad example for you to use there. He was VERY flashy and took pride in being noticed and standing out. He just happened to wear dark clothes.

As for what you call the "aura", that's really one of the things I've hated about Batman for quite a while. I remember reading an older comic where he was talking about how he designed his costume so it would inspire fear in criminals AND hope in the common people. Writers just seem to have ditched that last part because hope isn't cool enough or something.


You want to have the cake and eat it.
Sorry, not happening.
Bats´ either scary or he´s not.
Batman´s either dressed like a scary night creature or he´s a grown man dressed in silly tights, there´s no half way.

If you want innocent people to trust in him, well, I´ve got just the thing for you: Swamp Thing.
Now that´s one scary freak. And yet people have come to admire, respect, trust and even love him. Why? Because underneath all that gruesome bark skin is a creature who you know you can count on in a time of need.
That´s how Bats should be: a scary creature who you know is there for you.


Maybe Bruce Wayne put the yellow in the symbol so that people could see it, know for sure that Batman was coming at them and maybe give up without having to get beat up or so that the regular people in Gotham who weren't commiting crimes (all 5 of them) would know that he was there and they were safe.

That makes absolutely no sense at all.
"Let´s dress Bats in a costume that is stealthy for gangsters but a shining beacon of hope for innocent people."
Sorry, that revolutionary fabric is only going to be invented in 2174.



That or maybe he figured that it wasn't going to hamper his ability to be stealthy, no more than that bright yellow utility belt would at any rate, and it looked cool. I mean what does having trunks or a bright belt or even a non-oval Bat symbol on his costume have to do with scaring criminals besides absolutely nothing?

Sorry, I can´t understand this paragraph.

That or maybe it's just there because it looks cool and doesn't make Batman less stealthy or scary in his world for the same reason that he doesn't trip over his cape in his world - because his world isn't real and trying to bring too much reality into it is just gonna make it alot less fun.

You´ve been in these boards long enough to knnow that "Because it´s a comicbook" is not an excuse.

[Floyd The Barber]

I think that the yellow symbol is a big part of what separates the dichotomy of superhero and vigilante within Batman. A TRUE REAL WORLD vigilante would have no use for the symbol. But MY Batman (as I would have him) is a superhero. Very gaudy. Very nothing of this world. Very Different. I think that's a lot of todays comics folly is they've lost site of this. Why do we need such "reality" in a world of Bat and Spider men? It's missing the point entirely.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I think that the yellow symbol is a big part of what separates the dichotomy of superhero and vigilante within Batman. A TRUE REAL WORLD vigilante would have no use for the symbol. But MY Batman (as I would have him) is a superhero. Very gaudy. Very nothing of this world. Very Different. I think that's a lot of todays comics folly is they've lost site of this. Why do we need such "reality" in a world of Bat and Spider men? It's missing the point entirely.

I don´t think it´s missing the point.

Comics is a reflection of our reality, so they should obey some to mof its rules.

There are many things in comics that are just plain silly.
- For one, Batman is not scary at all. Sorry, he isn´t.
That whole "criminals are a cowardly lot"? I doubt there´s one guy in Leavenworth that would lose sleep over the sight of a man in tights.
Then again.......... :rolleyes:

- And the Batmobile? The "pinnacle of stealth".
I´m amazed Jason Todd only stole its tires. If Gotham criminals were any bright, they´d have blown that thing up by now.

Out here, there are neighbourhoods where a police car cannot enter.
Any new car on the block is scrutinised to the milimeter.
A flashy car with "Batman" written all over it would be spotted 12 city blocks away.

[The Batman]

I've been here long enough to know that "because it's a comic book" isn't an excuse; it's a reason.

A reason to accept that sometimes things are the way they are because they look cool and that worrying about realism too much can make things silly.

I mean, what does wearing his underwear on the outside have to do with scaring criminals? Why is that part of Batman's costume?

I'll give you a hint, it's because Batman's a superhero character in a comic book and it makes his costume look cooler.

Just like the yellow oval can.

[Floyd The Barber]

I don´t think it´s missing the point.

Comics is a reflection of our reality

I think when it comes down to it that's the main difference comic fans have. Not everyone wants comics to be "a reflection of our reality". Just the opposite for some. When I first got into comics AND today; I see them as an escape FROM reality. The fantastic. Something to take you away. Not remind you.

[Starba]

I think when it comes down to it that's the main difference comic fans have. Not everyone wants comics to be "a reflection of our reality". Just the opposite for some. When I first got into comics AND today; I see them as an escape FROM reality. The fantastic. Something to take you away. Not remind you.

I doubt it's that cut and dry for most people. I've found that shock-and-awe-based editorial mandates remind me more about what I don't like about the real world far more than any gritty, realistic, or postmodern comic ever has. Give me the original Authority over the latest Teen Titans incarnation any day of the week. At least I know with The Authority that if I see a gruesome death, it was thought up to serve the story or aesthetic of the book rather than to specifically tick someone off in the real world for publicity and $$$.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I've been here long enough to know that "because it's a comic book" isn't an excuse; it's a reason.

A reason to accept that sometimes things are the way they are because they look cool and that worrying about realism too much can make things silly.

I mean, what does wearing his underwear on the outside have to do with scaring criminals? Why is that part of Batman's costume?

I'll give you a hint, it's because Batman's a superhero character in a comic book and it makes his costume look cooler.

Just like the yellow oval can.

Just because it´s "comics" doesn´t mean it has to be "for the kiddies".
"Realism" is THE main selling aspect of Batman.
And yet we keep straying further and further from "realism", making the character more and more ridiculous.
Ask any Batman fan and he´ll tell you why he prefers Batman to, say Superman:
"- Because nobody can fly or lift buildings but anyone can be Batman, with the right mindset and training."

Anyone indeed....
A rich bilionaire who´s scored with every woman oin the DCU except Lois Lane(maybe) and Wonder Woman (yet).
Driving in a flashy Batcar without getting hit by a roadside bomb or a RPG.
Learning 8,954,875 techniques of martial arts.
Mastering! Every! Field! Of! Knowledge! Known! To! Man! In! His! Spare time!
Sleeping 5 minutes a day.
And, oh yeah: scaring criminals by wearing tights, underwear on the outside with a neon target on his chest.

Very reallistic.....

[Alan2099]

You want to have the cake and eat it.
Sorry, not happening.
Bats´ either scary or he´s not.
Batman´s either dressed like a scary night creature or he´s a grown man dressed in silly tights, there´s no half way.
The comics themselves would disagree with you.

If you want innocent people to trust in him, well, I´ve got just the thing for you: Swamp Thing.
Now that´s one scary freak. And yet people have come to admire, respect, trust and even love him. Why? Because underneath all that gruesome bark skin is a creature who you know you can count on in a time of need.
That´s how Bats should be: a scary creature who you know is there for you.
And yet Swampthing spends time with people, sits and talks with them, and goes around in the daylight, things you've already said batman shouldn't do.

"Realism" is THE main selling aspect of Batman.
Prove it.

Ask any Batman fan and he´ll tell you why he prefers Batman to, say Superman:
"- Because nobody can fly or lift buildings but anyone can be Batman, with the right mindset and training."
Actually no. I prefer Batman not because it's more realistic, but because the character is more stylized. It mixes the light with the dark better and typically features more intresting villians.


Anyone indeed....
A rich bilionaire who´s scored with every woman oin the DCU except Lois Lane(maybe) and Wonder Woman (yet).
Driving in a flashy Batcar without getting hit by a roadside bomb or a RPG.
Learning 8,954,875 techniques of martial arts.
Mastering! Every! Field! Of! Knowledge! Known! To! Man! In! His! Spare time!
Sleeping 5 minutes a day.
And, oh yeah: scaring criminals by wearing tights, underwear on the outside with a neon target on his chest.

Very reallistic.....
out of all of these problems, the one you focus on as the height of his unrealistic portrail is a small symbol on his chest?

Just because it´s "comics" doesn´t mean it has to be "for the kiddies".
And just because something is unralisitc or bright doesn't mean it's "just for the kiddies". Ideally, you want something that can apeall to both, and anybody that knows comics even the slightest bit knows they don't always make completle sense, but then again, neither does most action movies, or horror movies, or romance movies, or what have you. Yet people are willing to accept the "problems" in these things with little to no complaining.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The comics themselves would disagree with you.

The comics also feature a human being with no superpowers or enhanced abilities mastering every field of knowledge known to man and 234,345,123 fighting styles.


And yet Swampthing spends time with people, sits and talks with them, and goes around in the daylight, things you've already said batman shouldn't do.



Uh....Hell-o?
Swamp Thing IS a monster.
He doesn´t need theatrics to be scary, he can make most people pee in their pants just by sitting next to them at a MacDonalds in broad daylight.


Prove it.

"Already did.
"- Oh, like I hate Superman, he´s, like, so unreallistic, nobody can, ,like, fly and, like, lift buildings and stuff LOL!!!ONE1"


Actually no. I prefer Batman not because it's more realistic, but because the character is more stylized. It mixes the light with the dark better and typically features more intresting villians.

You don´t speak for the majority of Batfans.


out of all of these problems, the one you focus on as the height of his unrealistic portrail is a small symbol on his chest?

It´s the very title of this thread.
If this was a thread about the Batcar, I´d be hammering on it as well.



And just because something is unralisitc or bright doesn't mean it's "just for the kiddies". Ideally, you want something that can apeall to both, and anybody that knows comics even the slightest bit knows they don't always make completle sense, but then again, neither does most action movies, or horror movies, or romance movies, or what have you. Yet people are willing to accept the "problems" in these things with little to no complaining.


I disagree.
Batman as it is, IS for the kiddies.
A guy has to shut down half his brain every time Bats strolls around unscathed in a crime-ridden city in a car that can be spotted 12 city blocks away

[Alan2099]

The comics also feature a human being with no superpowers or enhanced abilities mastering every field of knowledge known to man and 234,345,123 fighting styles.
Yes. It does. Your point?

"Already did.
"- Oh, like I hate Superman, he´s, like, so unreallistic, nobody can, ,like, fly and, like, lift buildings and stuff LOL!!!ONE1"
No. You proved nothing. You made a complete unsubstancial statement and mockery and expected everyone to accept it as fact.

You don´t speak for the majority of Batfans.
Nor do you, but you where the one who said that "any Batman fan" would agree with your statement. You were wrong and I pointed it out.

I disagree.
Batman as it is, IS for the kiddies.
A guy has to shut down half his brain every time Bats strolls around unscathed in a crime-ridden city in a car that can be spotted 12 city blocks away
So, if it IS for the kiddies, why do you inisit on pointing out that certain ideas are stupid because they are for the kiddies? You might as wel talk about how Bugs Bunny doesn't always obey the laws of physics or why your avrage action hero can mow down hundreds of people with a machine gun and never get hit himself.

If you'e saying Batman is for the kiddies, then it's all for the kiddies. What point would it make to be "all for the kiddies ... except that he has a realy realisitc Bat symbol,"?

If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't waste your time and our pointing out how it doesn make sense when you've openly said that Batman himself doesn't make sense.

[The Batman]

Just because it´s "comics" doesn´t mean it has to be "for the kiddies".
"Realism" is THE main selling aspect of Batman.
And yet we keep straying further and further from "realism", making the character more and more ridiculous.
Ask any Batman fan and he´ll tell you why he prefers Batman to, say Superman:
"- Because nobody can fly or lift buildings but anyone can be Batman, with the right mindset and training."

Anyone indeed....
A rich bilionaire who´s scored with every woman oin the DCU except Lois Lane(maybe) and Wonder Woman (yet).
Driving in a flashy Batcar without getting hit by a roadside bomb or a RPG.
Learning 8,954,875 techniques of martial arts.
Mastering! Every! Field! Of! Knowledge! Known! To! Man! In! His! Spare time!
Sleeping 5 minutes a day.
And, oh yeah: scaring criminals by wearing tights, underwear on the outside with a neon target on his chest.

Very reallistic.....

So you're claiming that the appeal of Batman is realism and then list all the reasons that it's silly to consider Batman realistic. Given everything else you've mentioned it seems really sort of silly to start going off about how unrealistic a yellow bat-symbol is.

I'm really not sure if you're here trolling for an argument because you don't like Batman or if you're just not that bright.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yes. It does. Your point?

Like I said, kiddie stuff.


No. You proved nothing. You made a complete unsubstancial statement and mockery and expected everyone to accept it as fact.

You mean it´s not true?
How long have you been in CBR?
We get posts like that five times a week, can´t throw a rock without landing on someone claiming that they prefer Bats to Supes because "Superman´s too powerful and unreallistic".
Of course a guy becoming the best at everything in all fields of knowledge known to man IS reallistic.
All you M.I.T. kids out there, don´t bother studying 16 hours a day trying to be the top of your class. Bruce will be better than all of you just by glancing through a book for 10 minutes in his trip to Tibet to learn some new katas.



Nor do you, but you where the one who said that "any Batman fan" would agree with your statement. You were wrong and I pointed it out.

Sorry, my mistake. I should have haid: "Any Batman Fan -except Alan-."


So, if it IS for the kiddies, why do you inisit on pointing out that certain ideas are stupid because they are for the kiddies? You might as wel talk about how Bugs Bunny doesn't always obey the laws of physics or why your avrage action hero can mow down hundreds of people with a machine gun and never get hit himself.

That´s why the Gods of Fiction created something called context.
Bugs Bunny is a cartoon character, he can fall from a 23 stories building and walk out whistling.
Batman is an attempt to emulate our reality-with all the laws that it implies-.
If Batman felt from a 23 stories building, he´d be turned into paté.
Or............... maybe not?
After all, Batman himself has become a cartoon character who mastered 679,234,175 fighting styles and is the best at everything.


If you'e saying Batman is for the kiddies, then it's all for the kiddies. What point would it make to be "all for the kiddies ... except that he has a realy realisitc Bat symbol,"?

You´re missing the point entirely, this is a a matter of coherence.
Batman is supposed to emulate our reality.
But if he walks around in silly tights with a neon target on his chest and nobody shoots him or drives in a flashy car in the middle of a crime-ridden city and nobody bombs it, then it becoms utter nonsense. It becomes a cartoon, no much different from Bugs Bunny.


If you don't like it, that's fine, but don't waste your time and our pointing out how it doesn make sense when you've openly said that Batman himself doesn't make sense.


Well, this was an open thread dedicated to expressing people´s opinions. I gave mine (unpopular as it may be).

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So you're claiming that the appeal of Batman is realism and then list all the reasons that it's silly to consider Batman realistic. Given everything else you've mentioned it seems really sort of silly to start going off about how unrealistic a yellow bat-symbol is.

Like i told Alan, the subject of this thread is the yellow oval.
If the subject of this thread was the Batcar or the fact that he´s the (2nd) best at 276,345 martial art styles, I´d be (trying to )l explain why those elements aren´t reallistic either.


I'm really not sure if you're here trolling for an argument because you don't like Batman or if you're just not that bright.


I am here defending my opinion. Yoiu don´t like it, well, you´re entitled to it.
Just don´t dismiss it as trolling just because you don´t like it.

[SMMM]

All I can say is that the yellow oval should've been thrown out with the Batusi.

[Rattlehead]

Discussing realism about a fictional character who somehow managed to return to action after being friggin paralyzed is pretty ridiculous. I like Batman becuase the idea of the character is cool, but I'm well-aware that the logistics of the character or any character for that matter are pretty far-fectched. I also think that's the point. It's not supposed to be realistic, that's why it's a drawing on a piece of paper. It's like arguing how something in Pro Wrestling isn't realistic enough. It's not supposed to be realistic. If I want the real world I'll turn on the news, if I want fictional people doing fantastically impossible things I'll read a comic book.

[Alan2099]

So, Eliseu Gouveia, maybe I'm getting you wrong, but it sounds to me like you're entire arguement boils down to, "Batman is supposed to be realistic, but isn't and never has been. He's a kid freindly character in tights, with gadgets, and I hate that."

So, if you hate the car, the skills, the costume, the gadgets, the fighting ability, the fact that he's never realy gotten hurt bad and stayed that way, and all that stuff, what exactly do you want Batman to be? Because it's pretty obvious to me you haven't liked how they did the character since at least the 50s.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Discussing realism about a fictional character who somehow managed to return to action after being friggin paralyzed is pretty ridiculous. I like Batman becuase the idea of the character is cool, but I'm well-aware that the logistics of the character or any character for that matter are pretty far-fectched. I also think that's the point. It's not supposed to be realistic, that's why it's a drawing on a piece of paper. It's like arguing how something in Pro Wrestling isn't realistic enough. It's not supposed to be realistic. If I want the real world I'll turn on the news, if I want fictional people doing fantastically impossible things I'll read a comic book.

See, I have no prob with Batman recovering from a broken spine.
They live in a world where there are purple rays and teleportation, finding a magic pill that cures broken spines is probably a matter of going to the nearest pharmacy.
But when Batman starts doing half the stuff he does and people still claim that he´s only human, well, THAT is pretty ridiculous.
Humans don´t do half the things Batman does.
Humans don´t even dream of becoming the (2nd) best in the world at 2 fighting styles, let alone 200.
Humans can barely become the (2nd) best at ONE field of knowledge, let alone the (2nd) best at every single one of them.
Say it´s a cartoon character, say it´s for kiddies and you´re required to shut down half your brain while reading it.
Just don´t say he´s human or that "he´s more realistic than superman"..

That is pretty ridiculous.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So, Eliseu Gouveia, maybe I'm getting you wrong, but it sounds to me like you're entire arguement boils down to, "Batman is supposed to be realistic, but isn't and never has been. He's a kid freindly character in tights, with gadgets, and I hate that."

So, if you hate the car, the skills, the costume, the gadgets, the fighting ability, the fact that he's never realy gotten hurt bad and stayed that way, and all that stuff, what exactly do you want Batman to be? Because it's pretty obvious to me you haven't liked how they did the character since at least the 50s.

Thank you, I´m so glad you asked :)
I think above all, I want Batgod gone.
In an attempt to "keep up with" gods like Superman and Wonder Woman, writers have been beefing up and up his abilities to a point no human could ever hope to acchieve.
Batman cannot, should not and doesn´t need to "keep up with" gods, he´s a man. Bound by human limitation but always aspiring to greater heights. .
Mastering 654,697 fighting styles?
Being the world´s (2nd) best at everything?
WTF?

He´s a detective!
He´s the best at detective work, period!
CSI stuff, forensics, some chemistry, maybe some passing knowledge of botanic due to run-ins with Poison Ivy and her compounds, assorted general knowledge about a few other issues ranging from literature to electronics and that´s it!
Fighting styles?
Ninjutsu, some boxing, some kick and that´s it.
Top notch fighter who can take out 3-5 goons in HTH but put him against the likes of Conner Hawke, Lady Shiva or Batgirl and they´ll run rings around him.
Best Batman comic I ever read, he had trouble taking otu Catwoman!!!

Don´t try to turn him into a God.
This BatGod who has contingecy plans to take out anyone in the DCU?
Utter garbage.
If Batman ever even DREAMT of going toe-to-toe with Superman or Wnder Woman, he should wake up and apologise. He should be in mortal fear for his very LIFE, At the very last second he could >maybe< come up with a plan to make it out in one piece but that´s it.

I fondly remember Miller´s Batman: Year One, last time I recall where he was portrayed as someone "anyone could become given the right mindset and training".
Hell, I could be that guy if I had that kind of drive (and a billion dollars).

Get him an (several) unmarked car, a bike, ditch the yellow oval, the yellow belt, cover his face. Stop appearing in public events, stop posing for photos next to the other silly people in tights.
Don´t think like a suyperhero would, superheroes are cartoon characters.
Instead, think how a REAL human would think and plan and act if he wanted to survive even for a week in a ruthless, vicious, crime-infested hell-hole like Gotham.

First order of business? A REAL human would never paint a yellow target in his chest. :D

[Alan2099]

So, you want a Batman that's in no way a superhero.

I think that pretty much explains everything.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So, you want a Batman that's in no way a superhero.

I think that pretty much explains everything.

Heroes, superheroes.... it´s just names!!.

When Joker threatens to unleash Anthrax in the middle of Gotham and Batman has only 20 minutes to figure out an address or Poison Ivy is controlling the mayor and he has no proof, what difference does it make?

Edit: On another thread, someone was asking if Bats was a superhero since he doesn´thave superpowers.
Is he? Isn´t he?
Personally, I think he is.
You see, IMHO a superhero is not defined by the powers you have but by the threats you FACE!

A police officer or a fireman are heroes: they save lives every day.
But it takes a SUPER-hero to stop mass-murdering sociopaths and save entire cities.

[Trusty Mutsi]

I miss the yellow oval a LOT! Since Bats is supposed to be happier and healthier since Infinite Crisis, it'd be a perfect time to bring it back!

[90'sCartoonMan]

And that´s the reason why he wears an yellow target?
So people can tell him apart from Huntress?

I was making a joke. You said if you see the pointy-caped silhouette, you automatically know it's Batman, and I was saying it could be Huntress.

i know batwoman and mcginnis have the red, but i really like the red bat.
i've never seen it on a dark grey costume either instead of black. that might look cool.

It could, I'd like to see that...although maybe for Batwoman. You know what I liked? That gold or yellow bat he had on his costume during Rock of Ages.

[mattx110]

It could, I'd like to see that...although maybe for Batwoman. You know what I liked? That gold or yellow bat he had on his costume during Rock of Ages.

yeeeyyeeeeeeessssss
see, that was insane supergod batman, but within Eliseu's realm of possibilty for batman.
he didn't beat the apokolips gods, as much as have the will to survive extreme torture for decades.
and that big yellow bat looked awesome. i think howard porter has gotten a million times better as an artist since then, and i don't quite understand how he got so huge then, but that looked great. (although the lanky, pointy fingered black lipstick and mascara bruce wayne/batman will never grow on me).
in JLU, batman is the one character who acts insanely confident, but you always have this fear they're going to do a "batman fails" episode without you seeing it coming. they can't do that with superman or the flash.
it's nice to have a superhero that not only because he's human, but because he's got a supporting cast of heroes, that can go through things like "knightfall" on a smaller scale, and still be interesting.

if superman is out of commission, we'll get what, more jimmy olsen and lois? more daily planet?
if batman is out, we still have the crimefighting.

[stelok]

No, I don't miss the yellow oval unless it is on the sleek black suit seen in the Tim Burton's Batman movie.

.

[Rylon]

<tangent>
I think above all, I want Batgod gone.
Yeah, Batgod isn't my favorite either, and for many of the same reasons you give.

Batman's expertise at a multitude of subjects isn't just a result of the Superhero genre, it's common with many popular detectives going back to Sherlock Holmes. Holmes abilities practically made him omnipotent. Hercule Poirot is almost as bad. Batman shares a lot of characteristics with the 'eccentric detective' genre. I mean, you don't get more eccentric than dressing-up like a bat. The main difference is that Batman lives, mostly, in the superhero genre. The two genres combined better in the days when superheroes like Superman spent most of their days fighting gangsters in suits, not supervillians in equally gaudy costumes.

I think Batgod comes from three places:

One: You already mentioned that DC feels the need to put Batman on par with Superman.

Two: Batman's abilities are natural extension of the omnipotent detective from the mystery genre.

Three: A desire for comic writers (and readers) to believe that sufficient intelligence and planing will overcome brute strength. Here Batman is being used for a kind of wish-fulfillment.

For a while, Superman's intelligence was depreciated and I think Batman's onimpotant detective role was enhanced to make him less like Superman. Now that Superman's intelligence is slowly getting stronger, this may cause Batman to back-away from onimpotant dective. It's too soon to tell.
</tangent>

[mattx110]

<tangent>

Yeah, Batgod isn't my favorite either, and for many of the same reasons you give.

Batman's expertise at a multitude of subjects isn't just a result of the Superhero genre, it's common with many popular detectives going back to Sherlock Holmes. Holmes abilities practically made him omnipotent. Hercule Poirot is almost as bad. Batman shares a lot of characteristics with the 'eccentric detective' genre. I mean, you don't get more eccentric than dressing-up like a bat. The main difference is that Batman lives, mostly, in the superhero genre. The two genres combined better in the days when superheroes like Superman spent most of their days fighting gangsters in suits, not supervillians in equally gaudy costumes.

I think Batgod comes from three places:

One: You already mentioned that DC feels the need to put Batman on par with Superman.

Two: Batman's abilities are natural extension of the omnipotent detective from the mystery genre.

Three: A desire for comic writers (and readers) to believe that sufficient intelligence and planing will overcome brute strength. Here Batman is being used for a kind of wish-fulfillment.

For a while, Superman's intelligence was depreciated and I think Batman's onimpotant detective role was enhanced to make him less like Superman. Now that Superman's intelligence is slowly getting stronger, this may cause Batman to back-away from onimpotant dective. It's too soon to tell.
</tangent>

hmmm...
if you want a humaner batman, then maybe he could remain in psychic link with j'onn j'onnz when they need an opinion, or help putting together a plan, but he stays in gotham.
kinda like oracle for them, he'd maintain his watch over the psychos of gotham, and be helpful to the JLA against the planet-eaters without needing to mention how he'd kick everyone in the world's butt in 13.4 seconds.
basically, superman has his niche, he's all symbolic leader/has the endurance to rush headlong into battle in a way that can inspire others. while batman is more of a "send the right guy for the job" thing. if the JLA needs a ninja, call batman, if the JLA needs some tech thing examined, or the joker is involved or even if they just want a second opinion, call batman.

i think that the superficial "yellow oval" argument has reached into the "suspension of disbelief" argument enough for us to talk about this a little.

batgod had the yellow oval for his inception anyway in the 1990/2000s JLA.

[dancj]

1-Batman is not a superhero. I don't know why he keeps getting called one. What superpowers does he have that would make him a superhero? Superman is a superhero. Green Latern is a superhero. Flash is a superhero. Batman is not.
Batman has a secret identity and wears his underpants on the outside. He dresses up in lycra to fight crime and can go toe to toe with super powered beings.

He really IS a superhero. He's just not a metahuman

[The Batman]

Yup. I just reread Year One, probably one of my favourite Batman stories ever btw, and while it may not have Batman hanging around with the JLA he still does some pretty super things. He gets shot in the arms and leg a couple of times and still manages to run around and fight and break handcuffs and survive in an exploding building. I'm not going to mention the part where he punches that SWAT guy through that brick wall because it was after the building had been bombed out (with Batman still in it btw) cause the walls had probably been weakened to the point where most anyone could've punched a guy through them.

Thank goodness though that he's not hanging out with JLA or wearing a costume with a yellow oval though because that'd be totally unrealistic. ;)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

ZOMFG! Batman kicked a guy through a brick wall! That´s IM-POSSIBLE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lijz5RjQkVc)

[Alan2099]

That's neither a brick wall nor is it a guy being kicked though one.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

That's neither a brick wall nor is it a guy being kicked though one.

Alan, we´ve been here before.
Don´t go there.
We both know physics is not your game.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/punchiepunchie.jpg

[The Batman]

Wow. Look how much preperation it took for him to do that.

And concentration.

And not being being shot a couple of times and loosing a whole bunch of blood.

[Alan2099]

We both know physics is not your game.
And apparently accuracy is not yours. You'ev completley ignored the use of spacers obvious in that video, which many professionals consider cheating as the force is simply used to break a single brick and from there the bricks break each other. Unlike most walls which are cosntructed with no gaps in order to be less likely to be broken.

Also for that matter, you seem to ignore the point of impact, which implies more direct force in the brick examples, as a person is directly applying the impact when compared to the idea of knockign a person though a wall, which the force of the impact is spread out due to the body size (although weight would also be an influencing matter here.)

Now, even ignoreing all that, the picture you showed as demonstration neither shows a person breaking bricks as in the video which you posted as proof nor does it show a person being kicked though a wall.

But hey, your the one that wants to go for accuracy in these things. I guess it only needs to be accurate when supporting your own ideas, right?

[The Batman]

^^^

You forgot to mention that that guy hadn't been shot.

Twice.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Let me get this straight, are you actually arguing that it is possible to punch through 6 bricks (what´s the record right now anyway, 10?) layed on top of each other but it is not possible to punch a guy through a brick wall in a building that had already been subjected to bombing?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

^^^

You forgot to mention that that guy hadn't been shot.

Twice.

So?
Maybe he brought some cool magical-mystical-majectic eastern medicines from his trips to the Tibet.

[Alan2099]

Let me get this straight, are you actually arguing that it is possible to punch through 6 bricks (what´s the record right now anyway, 10?) layed on top of each other but it is not possible to punch a guy through a brick wall in a building that had already been subjected to bombing?

What's the record for breaking bricks after rigerous excercise, being shot twice and being in a building while it goes boom? ;)

[The Batman]

So knowing alot of maritial arts or having a yellow bat-symbol is unrealistic but magical mystic healing techniques isn't?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So knowing alot of maritial arts or having a yellow bat-symbol is unrealistic but magical mystic healing techniques isn't?


We are discussing the Bats character himself, not the world where he lives in.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What's the record for breaking bricks after rigerous excercise, being shot twice and being in a building while it goes boom? ;)

All can be explained:

breaking bricks after rigerous excercise-
brick breaking requires focus, not strenght

being shot twice
DCU oriental mumbo-jumbo herbs


being in a building while it goes boom
Bat got prep time to hide from the blast

[The Batman]

So you want a Batman who's bound by human limitations but can still use DCU mumbo-jumbo herbs to heal up real quick after being shot so that he can punch people through walls and break handcuffs when he wants.

How exactly are mumbo-jumbo herbs that heal you up real good after taking a couple of bullets any less out there than anything else Batman's done that you don't care for?

[Rattlehead]

Sorry Elisa, but I suspect it's people like you who are the reason why Marvel destroyed the appeal of their universe with that nauseating Civil War mess.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So you want a Batman who's bound by human limitations but can still use DCU mumbo-jumbo herbs to heal up real quick after being shot so that he can punch people through walls and break handcuffs when he wants.

How exactly are mumbo-jumbo herbs that heal you up real good after taking a couple of bullets any less out there than anything else Batman's done that you don't care for?

Did you even read my previous post?
I know Batman lives in a world inhabited by werewolves, amazon goddesses, kryptonians, plant people, sorcerers.
I know he has to face Floronic Men, Poison Ivys and Clayfaces.

But Batman himself, his defining characteristic is that he himself is human.

So, keep the mumbo-jumbo herbs, keep the kryptonians, the green lanterns and the reality punches.
But if Batman is going to be sold as "the pinnacle of human acchievement", then he has to be human to begin with.

Right now, he is a pure and unadultered META hidden under the guise of humanity.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Sorry Elisa, but I suspect it's people like you who are the reason why Marvel destroyed the appeal of their universe with that nauseating Civil War mess.


It´s "Eliseu", not "Elisa". I´m a guy.

I actually like what Marvel is trying to do but I don´t subscribe to everything Marvel is trying to do. There are many things that get in my hair as well.

I have no prob with DC remaining as is (consistency/coherence was never its forte to begin with), but I do feel the need to bring out the utter nonsense that populate some pockets of its universe once in a while.

Calling Batman "human" is one of them.

[The Batman]

If Batman lives in a more fantastic world it stands to reason that he might be a more fantastic, while still human, character. The same Tibetian monks who whipped up his mumbo-jumbo herbal gunshot cure may have found a mumbo-jumbo way to teach someone alot of martial arts really well really quickly or a mumbo-jumbo potion that lets him not need to sleep as much as everyone else does. If you'll accept mumbo-jumbo explanations for one superhuman feat why won't you accept mumbo-jumbo explanations for another?

Instead of complaining about why Batman isn't more down to Earth you should be wondering why he doesn't take fuller advantage of the wonders that surround him? Why doesn't he use all the super science that exists in the DCU to help in his war on crime? Why doesn't he have a GL ring or Kryptonian technology in the Batcave? Why doesn't he try and get ahold of a Mother Box from the New Gods or maybe one of those Boom Suits from the 853rd century?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

If Batman lives in a more fantastic world it stands to reason that he might be a more fantastic, while still human, character. The same Tibetian monks who whipped up his mumbo-jumbo herbal gunshot cure may have found a mumbo-jumbo way to teach someone alot of martial arts really well really quickly or a mumbo-jumbo potion that lets him not need to sleep as much as everyone else does. If you'll accept mumbo-jumbo explanations for one superhuman feat why won't you accept mumbo-jumbo explanations for another?

I tried to sell myself that line of argumentation, that humans in the DCU are somehow different from humans in our reality.
But the truth is Batman is not marketed as a Human version 1.45 or Human 2.0.
No, he´s marketed as what anyone of US (you and me) could hope to be if we tried really hard.
Heck, fans buy this hook, line and sinker, you stumble in posts here every two days about how people like Bats because they somehow think they too could be the best at everything, master 458,230 fighting styles if they tried really-really-really-really-really-really hard.


Instead of complaining about why Batman isn't more down to Earth you should be wondering why he doesn't take fuller advantage of the wonders that surround him? Why doesn't he use all the super science that exists in the DCU to help in his war on crime? Why doesn't he have a GL ring or Kryptonian technology in the Batcave? Why doesn't he try and get ahold of a Mother Box from the New Gods or maybe one of those Boom Suits from the 853rd century?


I don´t wonder about that.
It´s obviously an editorial decision, if Batman started walking around with a GL ring, all his "human appeal" would be gone.
Can´t have that.

[The Batman]

Is that really how DC markets Batman or is it just how some fans see him? You know, the same kind of fans that think of Spider-Man, the guy with the spider powers and the supermodel/actress wife, as the ultimate everyman hero?

Also, if Batman can use herbal mumbo-jumbo to help with a gunshot wound or two then why can't he use it to not sleep or learn faster? In both cases he's still just a human with an little boost; it just seems that you're just more willing to explain away one and not the other.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Using mumbo-jumbo herbs to boost his inteligence or avoid sleep is wrong from an ethics PoV.
Next thing we know, he´d be using them to boost his strenght, speed, reflexes...

[The Batman]

That doesn't answer the question of why you're willing to accept some kinds of mumbo-jumbo and not others.

[mattx110]

batman can kick down walls after getting shot because he was an extremely well-trained martial artist and gymnast with an adrenalin high who was desperate.


seriously, i do this kinda thing all the time in my line of work.

ok i lied about that. but in fiction, some bullets kill and some just hurt a little. that's the way it has to be for one character to die, and another to be scarred into becoming a villian or something when subjected to the same stimulus.

it's not like we can test shooting martial artists and see how well they can kick after.

[The Batman]

^^^^

Yup, in fiction some bullets kill, others main, and some just produce cool looking wounds that don't actual stop people from running and fighting and knocking people through brick walls willy nilly. That doesn't strike me as being any less silly, any less believable, or any more human than Batman being able to know alot of martial arts.

Also, for all this talk about magic mumbo-jumbo herbs in Year One they weren't actually in the story. Batman got shot twice, lost a bunch of blood, survived in an exploding building, and in the middle of fighting a bunch of SWAT guys punshed someone through a brick wall. Batman accomplished that superhuman feat all on his own.

If you really want Batman to have human appeal, you'd have him do what most people do when they get shot twice and that isn't punch people through brick walls.

[mattx110]

i honestly thought he kicked someone through a brick wall, but they referenced it later as the guy batman punched through a brick wall in one of them jeph loeb books...
i need to recheck the page i guess.

[The Batman]

Either way he'd been shot twice, was bleeding, and was certainly wasn't hopped up on a magic mumbo-jumbo herbal healing potion.

[kmalone]

I hope the yellow oval stays away for as long as possible - yukky poo oval thingy.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

That doesn't answer the question of why you're willing to accept some kinds of mumbo-jumbo and not others.

What do you mean?

I have made painfully clear by now where I stand in all this by now.

Batman is an extraordinary man living in a fantastic universe.
Extraordinary but still a man, someone whose actions anyone should be able to mimic if we had his drive.

Mumbo-jumbo herbs to heal gunshot wounds are not part of his nature as a man, it´s the nature of the universe he inhabits.

When he masters 658,397 fighting styles or becomes the best at everything, he is going far beyond what a man could ever even DREAM of acchieving.

[The Batman]

Perhaps in his fantastic universe mastering all those different fighting styles (where has it been said he knows 658, 397 btw?) isn't as difficult as it would be in our ordinary world? Maybe some fantastic teacher in his fantastic world taught him a fantastic technique to master alot of different fighting styles in a shorter amount of time? If we can have fantastic mumbo jumbo herbs that undo the tissue damage and blood loss of gunshot wounds surely we can have fantastic teachers who have extraordinarily effect teaching techniques can't we?

If you're willing to accept that one aspect of Batman's fantastic world can explain away one superhuman feat why can't you accept it as a way of explaining away another?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Perhaps in his fantastic universe mastering all those different fighting styles (where has it been said he knows 658, 397 btw?) isn't as difficult as it would be in our ordinary world?

The universe may be fantastic but he himself is still a MAN.
Not a meta, but a MAN!
A MAN cannot hope to become the best there is at hundreds of fighting styles, he´ll be extremely lucky if he becomes the best there is at just ONE fighting style!.


Maybe some fantastic teacher in his fantastic world taught him a fantastic technique to master alot of different fighting styles in a shorter amount of time? If we can have fantastic mumbo jumbo herbs that undo the tissue damage and blood loss of gunshot wounds surely we can have fantastic teachers who have extraordinarily effect teaching techniques can't we?


1) He learned from other HUMAN teachers, no META has been mentioned to my knowledge
2) Even if he trained with a Meta teacher, there are limits to what a MAN can aprehend. Without performance-enhancing substances, no way in hell would he be able to master hundreds of martial arts.
It´d be like Superman trying to teach him to fly. No matter how many flight techniques Kal teaches, he still wouldn´t be able to fly because inside, he´s still just a MAN.


If you're willing to accept that one aspect of Batman's fantastic world can explain away one superhuman feat why can't you accept it as a way of explaining away another?


I have already addressed this question how many times in this thread so far?

[The Batman]

A man also can't hope to punch another man through a brick wall after being shot, trapped in an exploding building, shot again, bleeding all over the place, and fighting a bunch of trained SWAT guys either but you don't seem to have a problem with that bit of superhuman unreality. In fact you're willing to go so far as to make up your own explanations involving magic mystic mumbo-jumbo tibetian herbal rememdies to explain it away if need be.

It's seems pretty clear that your problem isn't with Batman doing superhuman things. Just with Batman doing superhuman things that you don't happen to care for.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

A man also can't hope to punch another man through a brick wall after being shot, trapped in an exploding building, shot again, bleeding all over the place, and fighting a bunch of trained SWAT guys either but you don't seem to have a problem with that bit of superhuman unreality. In fact you're willing to go so far as to make up your own explanations involving magic mystic mumbo-jumbo tibetian herbal rememdies to explain it away if need be.

You have no idea of what people are able to do in extraordinary circumstances, frail women have been known to be able to turn cars over to save their trapped loved ones underneath.
Batman: Year One HAS its flaws, I will not deny that, but to this date it´s one of the best efforts at reallism I´ve seem.


It seems that your problem isn't with Batman doing superhuman things. Just with Batman doing superhuman things that you don't think are cool.


You are wrong.

[Alan2099]

Without performance-enhancing substances, no way in hell would he be able to master hundreds of martial arts.
But according to you he DOES use fancy oriental healing whatevers.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

But according to you he DOES use fancy oriental healing whatevers.

We are NOT gonna bog down this debate on the ETHIC difference between the medicine drugs used in gunshot treatments and the use of performance-enhancing steroid-like substances.

I have an unquestionable belief that everyone here is able to discern the difference.

[Alan2099]

Not when it comes to mystical fancy weird ancient remeides we don't know the difference.

And in case you forgot, Batman has used enahancement drugs before. Venom, anyone?

[The Batman]

It's not the ethical question, it's your willingness to explain away one bit of unreality, with either mumbo-jumbo magic herbs or now that it's simply a miracle, but not another. You're willing to explain away superhuman feats of physical activity but not superhuman feats of cognitive activity.

You seem perfectly willing to accept one bit of fantastic unreality but not another. If that wasn't the case you'd be complaining about how unrealistic it is from someone to have been shot like Batman had and to have bled like Batman did to have done what Batman had done in the story along with the unreality of Batman knowing an ungodly number of martial arts.

You're not doing that though. You're just giving Batman a pass on the superhuman stuff you think is cool and complaining about the stuff you think isn't.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Not when it comes to mystical fancy weird ancient remeides we don't know the difference.

And in case you forgot, Batman has used enahancement drugs before. Venom, anyone?



There IS a difference and you know very well.
Performance-enhancement drugs are both illegal, and unethical, just ask any olympic sportsman.

I had no idea Bat used venom before. If he has indeed, then he´s a hypicrit .and my opinion about him has sunk even further.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It's not the ethical question, it's your willingness to explain away one bit of unreality, with either mumbo-jumbo magic herbs or now that it's simply a miracle, but not another. You're willing to explain away superhuman feats of physical activity but not superhuman feats of cognitive activity.

You seem perfectly willing to accept one bit of fantastic unreality but not another. If that wasn't the case you'd be complaining about how unrealistic it is from someone to have been shot like Batman had and to have bled like Batman did to have done what Batman had done in the story along with the unreality of Batman knowing an ungodly number of martial arts.

You're not doing that though. You're just giving Batman a pass on the superhuman stuff you think is cool and complaining about the stuff you think isn't.

Am I typing in japanese or something?
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend this so very BASIC principle?

Batman is a man with a code of HONOR.
Using performance-enhancing drugs would put him on a META level and that is something he won´t do.

Using some kind of fancy mumbo-jumbo drug in the MEDICAL TREATMENT of his wounds (if indeed he has, we´re only especulating here) is not the same thing as injecting venom in his veins every night before going out on patrol.

Wakarimasu?

[mattx110]

There IS a difference and you know very well.
Performance-enhancement drugs are both illegal, and unethical, just ask any olympic sportsman.

I had no idea Bat used venom before. If he has indeed, then he´s a hypicrit .and my opinion about him has sunk even further.

he was a bit mentally unstable.
however, going on venom to try to expand his ability to fight crime beyond human capabilities should further prove your point.
batman struggles with being a human in a world of superpeople.

turning to drugs in an attempt to maintain a life he can't deal with on a physical or emotional level is very human.
plus, he went off venom pretty decidedly. it's not like he keeps a syringe handy to take on grundy or bane.

i'm on the oppisite side from eliseu of the fence on the yellow oval, but batman shouldn't concern himself with superpeople until they come into his turf, when he just knockoutgases them, or calls in the JLA if it's too much.
he's a niche crime character that branched out due to popularity, but he needs to be smart. he shouldn't beat supervillains by growling at them and acting invincible, but by outsmarting them and knowing when to call in backup for cleanup.

[Alan2099]

Performance-enhancement drugs are both illegal, and unethical, just ask any olympic sportsman.
And beating the crap out of thugs in an alley and holding them by their collar while dangling them off the top of a roof is legal and ethical, I take it.

I had no idea Bat used venom before. If he has indeed, then he´s a hypicrit .and my opinion about him has sunk even further.
Actually it started out as a very good storyline (later got not so good) where because Batman was human, he failed and watched a little girl die since he couldn't lift a 600 or so pound weight out of the way to save her, and gradually he became obcesses with it. Eventually he found somebody willing to offer him the solution to his problems, venom, and before he could even relize what was going on, he was hooked and because they was onlyn one soruce for the stuff, he ended up a pawn himself and had to face his own weakness and the pathetic state that he'd sunk to.

Using performance-enhancing drugs would put him on a META level and that is something he won´t do.
Why not? If he's trying to be the very best he can be with a suit and a car that does everything except program his VCR and nuke Gotham from orbit "just to be sure," why wouldn't he go to the point where he's enhancing himself if he had to? I don't recall Batman ever going, "I swear to avange your deaths mother and father ... and not use super powers to do it. Ever." Did I miss something?

[mattx110]

And beating the crap out of thugs in an alley and holding them by their collar while dangling them off the top of a roof is legal and ethical, I take it.


Actually it started out as a very good storyline (later got not so good) where because Batman was human, he failed and watched a little girl die since he couldn't lift a 600 or so pound weight out of the way to save her, and gradually he became obcesses with it. Eventually he found somebody willing to offer him the solution to his problems, venom, and before he could even relize what was going on, he was hooked and because they was onlyn one soruce for the stuff, he ended up a pawn himself and had to face his own weakness and the pathetic state that he'd sunk to.


Why not? If he's trying to be the very best he can be with a suit and a car that does everything except program his VCR and nuke Gotham from orbit "just to be sure," why wouldn't he go to the point where he's enhancing himself if he had to? I don't recall Batman ever going, "I swear to avange your deaths mother and father ... and not use super powers to do it. Ever." Did I miss something?

for your answer, read your post.
batman doesn't turn to anything that would drastically alter his body chemisty, because he understands the risks. he's been through it. he doesn't trust these idiots who would intentionally deform themselves so they could rob banks. he's not gonna do the same thing to catch them.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"Human" is the defining characterist in Batman and the one aspect I like about him the most.

He doesn´t trust metas (if not all-out hates them) and as a puny human, he´s the ultimate underdog in a world of gods. A guy who has to struggle with his limitations but won´t take the easy way out for fear of betraying who he is and losing sight of hismost precious possession- his humanity- .

Using performance-enhancing drugs like venom completely betrays this key aspect of the character.

I LIKE Batman human. I LIKE him as the underdog.
I want the Batman who had trouble taking out Catwoman.
I like him bleeding and sweating, desperately trying to find a way to take down a meta.
Because that´s when the victory is sweeter.

A Batgod who has contingency plans for every meta on the planet is, to put it gently, ludicrous.
I don´t want a Batman who looks at Wonder Woman and thinks "- Bitch, I could take you down with two snaps of my fingers."

I want a Batman who looks at Wonder Woman and thinks:" - I have NO idea of how to take down a goddess but I have to find a way somehow."

[mattx110]

"Human" is the defining characterist in Batman and the one aspect I like about him the most.

He doesn´t trust metas (if not all-out hates them) and as a puny human, he´s the ultimate underdog in a world of gods. A guy who has to struggle with his limitations but won´t take the easy way out for fear of betraying who he is and losing sight of hismost precious possession- his humanity- .

Using performance-enhancing drugs like venom completely betrays this key aspect of the character.

I LIKE Batman human. I LIKE him as the underdog.
I want the Batman who had trouble taking out Catwoman.
I like him bleeding and sweating, desperately trying to find a way to take down a meta.
Because that´s when the victory is sweeter.

A Batgod who has contingency plans for every meta on the planet is, to put it gently, ludicrous.
I don´t want a Batman who looks at Wonder Woman and thinks "- Bitch, I could take you down with two snaps of my fingers."

I want a Batman who looks at Wonder Woman and thinks:" - I have NO idea of how to take down a goddess but I have to find a way somehow."

huh...
i prefer batman's thoughts on wonder woman to be even more human than that ;)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

huh...
i prefer batman's thoughts on wonder woman to be even more human than that ;)


LOL

I just used Wonder Woman as an example of a meta, could have been anyone from Blue Beetle to Sinestro. :p

[Rylon]

Am I typing in japanese or something?
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend this so very BASIC principle?Maybe you should type in BASIC.

You know:

10 PRINT "THE YELLOW OVAL IS UNREALISTIC."
20 GOTO 10

[Rylon]

I'm sorry, I don't know what came over me. :eek:

[The Batman]

Am I typing in japanese or something?
Why is it so hard for you to comprehend this so very BASIC principle?

Batman is a man with a code of HONOR.
Using performance-enhancing drugs would put him on a META level and that is something he won´t do.

Using some kind of fancy mumbo-jumbo drug in the MEDICAL TREATMENT of his wounds (if indeed he has, we´re only especulating here) is not the same thing as injecting venom in his veins every night before going out on patrol.

Wakarimasu?

The only person that's suggesting that Batman use performance enhancing drugs is you. I'm merely suggesting that maybe he could've been taught a mumbo jumbo mystical technique, not a mumbo-jumbo stereoid just a teaching technique, that could've allowed him to learn things more efficiently.

I don't see how a more efficient learning technique would go against Batman's code of ethics or be any less 'realistic' an explanation for Batman doing something extraoridnary than mystical, magical, mumbo-jumbo herbs to undo the damage from a gunshot wound would be.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The only person that's suggesting that Batman use performance enhancing drugs is you. I'm merely suggesting that maybe he could've been taught a mumbo jumbo mystical technique, not a mumbo-jumbo stereoid just a teaching technique, that could've allowed him to learn things more efficiently.

I don't see how a more efficient learning technique would go against Batman's code of ethics or be any less 'realistic' an explanation for Batman doing something extraoridnary than mystical, magical, mumbo-jumbo herbs to undo the damage from a gunshot wound would be.


There is only so much a HUMAN brain can retain.
Do you recall what you were doing exactly 12 years, 3 months, 5 days, 7 hours, 23 minutes and 45 seconds ago?
I didn´t think so.
Because no matter what mumbo-jumbo technique someone uses to cram in him all this knowledge and information, the vessel carrying it is still only HUMAN.

[The Batman]

There's only so much a pain killer can do, mystical or not. A bullet would've torn through muscle and flesh and done all kinds of damage. Blood loss makes people weaker and Batman was bleeding all over the place.

That arm, that leg, that blood still belongs to someone who is only HUMAN, and pain killer or not, they shouldn't be punching or kicking anyone through any walls after getting shot twice.

Why are you willing to explain away one bit of unreality and not another?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There's only so much a pain killer can do, mystical or not. A bullet would've torn through muscle and flesh and done all kinds of damage. Blood loss makes people weaker and Batman was bleeding all over the place.

That arm, that leg, that blood still belongs to someone who is only HUMAN, and pain killer or not, they shouldn't be punching or kicking anyone through any walls after getting shot twice.

Why are you willing to explain away one bit of unreality and not another?


Why you keep raising this completely bogus isse?

A person can still function under chemical influence.
We have extensive reports of soldiers MORTALLY injured in the battlefield who kept fighting under the adrenaline rush before their bodies eventually gave up.
How many times have we heard of men who stayed alive and conscious despite having been sliced in half?
People who lost their arms and legs and didn´t feel the slightest pain?

It´s one thing to have enough chemicals in your system to keep your blood rushing despite injuries.

it´s another thing altogether to have a MAN performing far beyond what his body would biologically allow without any outside agent, chemical or otherwise.

Why are you so unwilling to accept this simple, BASIC principle?

[The Batman]

Did these mortally injured soldiers punch people through brick walls and run around and dodge bullets? These people that were conscious after being cut in half, did they have the physical strength to break a pair of handcuffs?

It's not a bogus issue. You keep saying that Batman doing one extraoridinary thing is silly and unrealistic and character ruining while another is alright. I'm just trying to understand why some kinds of superhuman activity are alright for Batman and others aren't, that's all.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Did these mortally injured soldiers punch people through brick walls and run around and dodge bullets? These people that were conscious after being cut in half, did they have the physical strength to break a pair of handcuffs

It's not a bogus issue. You keep saying that Batman doing one extraoridinary thing is silly and unrealistic and character ruining while another is alright. I'm just trying to understand why some kinds of superhuman activity are alright for Batman and others aren't, that's all.


It IS a bogus issue.
You keep trying to bog this discussion down on an irrelevant tangent.

The examples I´ve given you are all within the realm of human capability under extraordinary circumstances.
Monks punching through several layers of bricks, frail women turning over cars to save their husband/babies underneath, soldiers continuing to fight after losing a limb, etc, etc.

Mastering hundreds of martial arts or becoming the 2nd best at EVERYTHING goes far, far, FAR beyond freak acchievements under extraordinary circumstances like the ones listed.

The fact is this:
Would a wounded man be able to punch another through a brick wall of a decaying building previously hit by an explosion?
Maybe yes, maybe not, it really just depends on the circumstances.

Would a man be able to become the 2nd best at Every! Field! Of! Knowledge! Known! To! Man?
Not now, not tomorrow, not EVER!

So, are you gonna lkeep trying to press on this irrelevant, absolutely BOGUS issue or can we move on?

[Dr. Banner]

Would a man be able to become the 2nd best at Every! Field! Of! Knowledge! Known! To! Man?
Not now, not tomorrow, not EVER!

Prove this.
Name me the best person in every field that Batman is said to be the 2nd best at. And show me the proof that has Batman beating everyone in the world except that individual as proof that he's second best. Until then, if one of the caption boxes says he's the best or second best, it's creative licensing and besides, when you look at the thugs he takes on every night, he could probably be 108th best at every field of martial arts and still not break a sweat. It's all relative.

Besides, if you don't accept that aspect of Batman, you don't accept the character as a whole, you're just picking and choosing what you want to accept. And you, the individual reader, have NO choice in that matter. If it's printed on the page, it's how it is.

[The Batman]

Yeah people can punch through bricks, hang on after being shot and losing a bunch of blood, and maybe even run around inside of an exploding building looking for shelter before they die. To claim that doing all three is realistically possible is completely bogus.

As bogus as saying that Batman can master every field of human knowledge is.

btw Is Batman really the 2nd best at every field of knowledge known to man? Is he also a master chef? An accomplished artist? Can Batman play the piano? The violin? No he can't. Saying he's mastered every field of human knowledge is just exaggeration on your part. He's mastered all the stuff that he needs to know to be an effective superhero crimefighter. It doesn't seem like much of a difference but it is one.

You're claiming that realism is a bogus issue now but you're the one that decided that Batman's yellow oval wouldn't work because it would hamper his ability to realisticall be scary and blend into the night. You're the one who used Year One as an example of a realistic Batman. Why is one bit of unrealism okay and another not?

Yellow oval or not, Batman's not realistic. He's never been all that realitistic. He was never meant to be realistic. Fans just like to think about him that way for some reason.

[Dr. Banner]

Yellow oval or not, Batman's not realistic. He's never been all that realitistic. He was never meant to be realistic. Fans just like to think about him that way for some reason.

Totally agreed! And on another note, even the most accomplished gymnasts would NOT traverse a city along the rooftops. People can't jump that far, using the grappling hooks like that would tear their arms off REAL fast, and one would get VERY tired VERY quickly that when the crime fighting did begin, there'd be no energy left. Think about it. The whole concept, taken to the logical "realistic" extreme, is EVERYTHING the word "flawed" can be defined as. But that's why we read these books. For the fantastical element. The wow factor. The pure fun, enjoyment and entertainment. They're not sold as realistic, and were never even trying to be.

And that's why we love 'em. To think otherwise is delusional and makes one a stupid-head.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yeah people can punch through bricks, hang on after being shot and losing a bunch of blood, and maybe even run around inside of an exploding building looking for shelter before they die. To claim that doing all three is realistically possible is completely bogus.

As bogus as saying that Batman can master every field of human knowledge is.

1) Nor you nor I have ANY idea of where Batman was when the building was bombed.
2) You don´t know what Batman carries in his utility belt.
Maybe he has adrenaline shots to keep him juiced up even when wounded.. Maybe he has a med kit to suture wounds. Maybe he even has boomerangs in the shape of little bats.
There is a huge amount of things he could have reallistically done off-panel to keep ticking.

Becoming the 2nd best in the world at hundreds of martial arts goes FAR beyond what he or anyone can reallistically do.


btw Is Batman the 2nd best at every field of knowledge known to man? Is he also a master chef? An accomplished artist? Can Batman play the piano? The violin? No he can't. Saying he's mastered every field of human knowledge is just exaggeration on your part. He's mastered all the stuff that he needs to know to be an effective superhero crimefighter.

For all we know, Batgod is the world´s 2nd best korean cuisine chef!


You're claiming that realism is a bogus issue now but you're the one that decided that Batman's yellow oval wouldn't work because it would hamper his ability to realisticall be scary and blend into the night. You're the one who used Year One as an example of a realistic Batman.

No, I´m the one who used Batman: Year One as the closest to realism as Batman ever got.
And putting a yellow target on his chest when he´s trying to be stealthy and blen into the night IS a stupid idea.



Yellow oval or not, Batman's not realistic. He's never been all that realitistic. He was never meant to be realistic. Fans just like to think about him that way for some reason.


Finally we´re getting somewhere.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

stupid-head.

You, sir, are a troll I will take great pleasure ignoring.

[Dr. Banner]

You, sir, are a troll I will take great pleasure ignoring.

Who did I specifically attack? Not a single poster.

I attack all DC and Marvel superhero "fans" who think superheroes aren't realistic enough.

And I will say it again. If they think superheroes in tights hanging out with people who shoot lasers out of their eyes aren't realistic enough for them, then those fans, I say proudly, are stupid-heads. :D

[Dr. Banner]

Becoming the 2nd best in the world at hundreds of martial arts goes FAR beyond what he or anyone can reallistically do.

Prove this. Show me the people who realistically trained for years at this, and failed.

I bet Bruce Lee could EASILY have crossed over into other forms of Martial Arts. It's like the musical prodegies, who can play multiple musical instruments. Not far fetched at all that there are Martial Arts prodegies.

[The Batman]

1) Nor you nor I have ANY idea of where Batman was when the building was bombed.
2) You don´t know what Batman carries in his utility belt.
Maybe he has adrenaline shots to keep him juiced up even when wounded.. Maybe he has a med kit to suture wounds. Maybe he even has boomerangs in the shape of little bats.
There is a huge amount of things he could have reallistically done off-panel to keep ticking.


He lost his utility belt when the buidling exploded. It caught fire when he was running though the explosion looking for someplace to hide, yes I said running though the explosion, and he had to throw it away before the grenades in it exploded. He finally lucked out and hid behind a high voltage sign which was luckily not a high voltage sign but a door hiding a hidden apartment.

So we know where Batman was, we were shown. As to what's in his utility belt, that's irrelevant. He lost it pretty early on in the whole scenerio.

Also, when he got shot, passed out from blood loss, broke the handcuffs, crashed the cop car and survived that, he didn't even have a utility belt then.

Becoming the 2nd best in the world at hundreds of martial arts goes FAR beyond what he or anyone can reallistically do.

As I've said before this doesn't matter to me because I don't expect Batman to be realistic and I don't particularly want him to be. I just want him to be exciting and fun and cool and to show up in good stories.

For all we know, Batgod is the world´s 2nd best korean cuisine chef!

LOL. Maybe that's why Wonder Woman fell for him a little in JLA. Women do love a man who can cook. Or so I've been told.

No, I´m the one who used Batman: Year One as the closest to realism as Batman ever got.

Yeah and it's not very close. Not close at all really.


And putting a yellow target on his chest when he´s trying to be stealthy and blen into the night IS a stupid idea.

It's ALOT less stupid than deciding to wear a cape that's only going to trip you up when you're sneaking around rooftops. Batman's costume, including the yellow oval, is just like every other superhero costume - it's supposed to look awesome on the page. Anything other than that is just after the fact rationalizations.


Finally we´re getting somewhere.

So you're finally agreeing that worrying about Batman being realistic is pointless and that saying a yellow oval will realisticall impair his stealth or his scariness is silly?

[mattx110]

i'm not sure being a musical prodigy is a good analogy.

a violin or clarinet virtuoso almost has to study a harmonic instrument (piano or harp, sometimes guitar, but usually piano)
crossover between martial arts is more of a question of new vocabulary (moves). rather than applying a set of knowledge (scales and chord construction) to a new way of using your hands.

learning 50 martial arts seems idk, more like learning 50 different styles of music. bits of regional musics of different countries with their own scales and there is a massive amount of overlap, but to convincingly pull off 50 styles it is not possible.
bach stopped at 2 or 3 style periods. a master of counterpoint was never a great opera composer. it is impossible to do things as well as batman does in as many fields.

i think the main difference here is how you prefer batman.
he's a costumed noir vigilante waging a war on crime and corruption.
or a costumed superhero with a penchant for flashy technological devices with numbers from new genesis on his speed dial.
"i built my own teleporter" batman wouldn't have the time or ability to be a crimefighter of his level for all the time he'd have to study physics and the mechanics of whatever science the DCU uses for teleporters.

i'd like an ongoing more down to earth batman comic in the same niche as "LOTDK" maybe to showcase that.

[The Batman]

I prefer Batman to be in good stories. High tech, low tech, fantastic or gritty noir so long as they're good.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

snip, snip

You know, you are right.
How could I have missed it?
Realism?
Who needs that in comicbooks?

I don´t know why Batman even bothers dodging when people shoot guns at him.
It´s a comicbook!!!ONE1
He´s not gonna die just because someone shoots him in the head.
Realism schmealism!
He should dress himself in shocking pink and lemmon yellow from head to toe whenever he tries to hide in the shadows because, ZOMFG, it´s a COMICBOOK!!!

I am hereby starting a motion for Batman to start wearing a pink diaper on the outside.
Who´s with me?
We all know that rugged criminals are terrified by the sight of pink diapers, so why not?
It´s a comicbook!!!!ONE!

[Alan2099]

Comicbooks don't need realism. At best they need to be "real-ish," sort of kinda real at first glance, but not if you start looking into it.

And sometimes they don't even need that.

Realism?
Who needs that in comicbooks?
I have to admit, that's still better than your previous, "fantasy? Who needs that in a comicbook," garbage you've been spewing out for the past several pages.

[The Batman]

Now you're just being silly Eliseu.

Comic books work by their own sets of rules just like action movies and romantic comedies do. Comic book superheroes, even the ones that are supposed to be only human, do things that no one could ever be able to do in real life. That's what makes the stories so fun. Sometimes this means being able to fight on after getting shot a couple of times, other times it means being able to learn an impossible number of martial arts, and still other times it means just not tripping over an impossibly long cape.

According to these comic book rules Batman would probably want to dodge a bullet aimed at his head, unless of course he's wearing that armoured mask he had in the Hama run, because it might kill him. Ask Ted Kord. Then again, because it's a comic book that death might not be so permanent. Ask Ted Kord in about 10 years. For that matter, that Batman can dodge bullets at all is an example of the unreality of the comic book world.

Batman shouldn't wear a pink diaper because it's not something the character would do and because it'd look kinda dumb actually. Not because it's not gonna realistically scare criminals.

I mean if you want to get technical about it, realistically tights and a cape aren't gonna scare criminals either.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I have to admit, that's still better than your previous, "fantasy? Who needs that in a comicbook," garbage you've been spewing out for the past several pages.


If you think I said that, then clearly you haven´t been reading my posts AT ALL.




Now you're just being silly Eliseu.

I´m not the one advocating that a man should wear a yellow target on his chest so he doesn´t get shot in the head.


Comic books work by their own sets of rules just like action movies and romantic comedies do. Comic book superheroes, even the ones that are supposed to be only human, do things that no one could ever be able to do in real life. That's what makes the stories so fun. Sometimes this means being able to fight on after getting shot a couple of times, other times it means being able to learn an impossible number of martial arts, and still other times it means just not tripping over an impossibly long cape.


So you are okay with him running around in a long cape but cannot accept the pink diaper? I´m sorry, but your sense of "realism" leaves much to be desired.


According to these comic book rules Batman would probably want to dodge a bullet aimed at his head, unless of course he's wearing that armoured mask he had in the Hama run, because it might kill him. Ask Ted Kord. Then again, because it's a comic book that death might not be so permanent. Ask Ted Kord in about 10 years. For that matter, that Batman can dodge bullets at all is an example of the unreality of the comic book world.

Oh, please.
You know as well as I do that Batman will never die from getting shot in the head because this is a comicbook!!!ONE1


Batman shouldn't wear a pink diaper because it's not something the character would do and because it'd look kinda dumb actually. Not because it's not gonna realistically scare criminals.

So wearing the underwear on the outside to scare criminals is okay but a pink diaper is not? How do you know? Have you asked the Joker? Are you on a first-name basis with DCU criminals? Maybe pink diapers to them is as scary as grown man dressed in sexy tights, how do you know? It´s a comicbook!!!ONE1

[Alan2099]

Now you're just trolling. People aren't agreeing with you so you've took your arguement as far in the other direction as possible.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Now you're just trolling. People aren't agreeing with you so you've took your arguement as far in the other direction as possible.

That´s not trolling.

It´s debate tactic, I am using exageration to show you how absurd your position is.

You are defending that a grown man who scares criminals by wearing his underwear in the outside should paint a yellow target in his chest to divert fire from his head (a tactic employed by the military for decades, since the discovery of camouflage).

I am trying to show you how that that is as presposterous as strolling around in a pink diaper.

[Alan2099]

I am trying to show you how that that is as presposterous as strolling around in a pink diaper.
And yet you're also saying that he can be shot a few times na d blown up and be fine, but wearing a yellow symbol is just unrealistic.

[The Batman]

Except it isn't. Not even a little bit.

Because saying that Batman's yellow symbol is a target to draw fire to the part of his suit that's armoured is an after the fact rationalization. Something that someone came up to explain in universe why Batman's costume looks the way it looks.

The real reason for the yellow oval is to make the bat-symbol copyrightable and because it looks cool on Batman's uniform.

Pink diapers don't look cool.

If you want to argue from a point of realism, what purpose does having even an ovalless bat-symbol on his chest serve? I mean if he's all blended into the shadows people aren't going to see him anyway? Might as well save on the black dye.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

And yet you're also saying that he can be shot a few times na d blown up and be fine, but wearing a yellow symbol is just unrealistic.


No, I am defending that it´s not as much in the realm of impossibility as a man being the 2nd best in the world at EVERYTHING.´

But I am wasting my latin, of course, the key issue is not even whether he could or could not do what he did in those pages. Those are forgotten to me, just like the fact that his utility belt caught fire. Gone.
What stuck with me was the portrayal of Batman, the way he faced his obstacles.
That is what I considered reallistic. Alfred asking him if he would be taking the costume and he repplying "never in broad daylight."

This is a Batman who wouldn´t pose for pictures in public events or wear a yellow target on his chest.


Except it isn't. Not even a little bit.

Because saying that Batman's yellow symbol is a target to draw fire to the part of his suit that's armoured is an after the fact rationalization. Something that someone came up to explain in universe why Batman's costume looks the way it looks.

The real reason for the yellow oval is to make the bat-symbol copyrightable and because it looks cool on Batman's uniform.

Pink diapers don't look cool.

If you want to argue from a point of realism, what purpose does having even an ovalless bat-symbol on his chest serve? I mean if he's all blended into the shadows people aren't going to see him anyway. Might as well save on the black dye.

The ovaless symbol has the advantage of not drawing attention.

I meant fire.

[The Batman]

You are defending that a grown man who scares criminals by wearing his underwear in the outside should paint a yellow target in his chest to divert fire from his head.

I love this sentence so much you don't even know. A grown man wearing his underwear on the outside and it's the yellow oval that's got people worried.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I love this sentence so much you don't even know. A grown man wearing his underwear on the outside and it's the yellow oval that's got people worried.


The issue of this thread is the oval symbol.

You want to start a thread about the underwear in the outside, hey, I´m game! :rolleyes:

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Too late. (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=172568) :rolleyes:

[The Batman]

It's all part and parcel. Symbols are a part of a superhero costume just like underwear on the outside can be. They're both there for no other purpose than because they look cool.

oval, no oval, both symbols can be rationalized away if you get off on that sort of stuff. At the end of the day though, the only reason either of them in on his chest is because they look neat.

Unlike say, pink diapers.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It's all part and parcel. Symbols are a part of a superhero costume just like underwear on the outside can be. They're both there for no other purpose than because they look cool.

oval, no oval, both symbols can be rationalized away if you get off on that sort of stuff. At the end of the day though, the only reason either of them in on his chest is because they look neat.

Unlike say, pink diapers.

How do you know?
"Cool" is a matter of subjectivity, for ages, THIS was considered "cool".

http://photos7.flickr.com/8354017_7fb7657c7a.jpg

[The Batman]

.... and one day pink diapers might be cool too. That day isn't today.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Unlike underwear on the outside which was never cool, not even in 1940.

[The Batman]

Maybe not for regular people, but for superheroes it was awesome.

It still works for Superman and Batman. Two great costumes.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Maybe not for regular people, but for superheroes it was awesome.

It still works for Superman and Batman. Two great costumes.

That´s your opinion, of course.

[The Batman]

Yes it is. At the same time, that they've lasted nearly 70 years with only slight variations makes me think that there's SOMETHING good about those costumes.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yes it is. At the same time, that they've lasted nearly 70 years with only slight variations makes me think that there's SOMETHING good about those costumes.

What makes you think that "something good" are the undies on the outside?

[The Batman]

Well they're part of the costume and contribute to the overall appearence of it. If they didn't work they'd probably have been gotten rid of by now. Permanently.

They do offer a nice way of breaking up what would otherwise be a huge area of grey or blue on the page.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Well they're part of the costume. If they didn't work they'd probably have been gotten rid of by now. Permanently.

So, everybody else in the world who makes fun of underwear on the outside in comics is wrong and you are right.
Gotcha.


They do offer a nice way of breaking up what would otherwise be a huge area of grey or blue on the page.


i never figured you for a superhero design expert, how many successful comic creations do you have under your belt?

[The Batman]

So, everybody else in the world who makes fun of underwear on the outside in comics is wrong and you are right.
Gotcha.

Yes because that's exactly what I was saying. I'm hardly the only person that doesn't mind the underwear on the outside. The fact that they're still part of Batman's costume, a part that they tried to take away and they came back, shows that I'm hardly the only person who feels this way.

People can think something is silly and nonsensical and still like it you know? They can even make fun of something and still like it.

All that being said, if the best argument someone can make against underwear on the outside is that it's unrealistic attire for a superhero they're probably wrong on this one. Or at least really worried about the wrong kinds of things.



i never figured you for a superhero design expert, how many successful comic creations do you have under your belt?

It really doesn't take a superhero design expert to know that huge blocks of flat colour are probably going to look kinda, well, flat and boring on the printed page.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yes because that's exactly what I was saying. I'm hardly the only person that doesn't mind the underwear on the outside. The fact that they're still part of Batman's costume, a part that they tried to take away and they came back, shows that I'm hardly the only person who feels this way.

People can think something is silly and nonsensical and still like it you know? They can even make fun of something and still like it.

All that being said, if the best argument someone can make against underwear on the outside is that it's unrealistic attire for a superhero they're probably wrong on this one. Or at least really worried about the wrong kinds of things.

I don´t think "unreallistic" irs the term most people use to refer to underwear on the outside.
I believe the word most used is "silly".
Or "pervie", they tend to use that a lot too.


It really doesn't take a superhero design expert to know that huge blocks of flat colour are probably going to look kinda, well, flat and boring on the printed page.


So underwear on the outside is your answer to getting rid of the huge blocks of colours.
Good to hear.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/12/22/spiderman2_wideweb__430x277,1.jpg

[The Batman]

I don´t think "unreallistic" irs the term most people use to refer to underwear on the outside.
I believe the word most used is "silly".
Or "pervie", they tend to use that a lot too.

Okay. As I've said before, people can think something's silly and still like it. I think underwear on the outside can be silly, I also think that Superman and Batman's costumes don't look right without them.

As for "pervie", that's probably coming from the same place as comments that Batman's a little gay hanging around with Robin or Alfred all the time. Clever, well thought out arguments those . . .



So underwear on the outside is your answer to getting rid of the huge blocks of colours.
Good to hear.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/12/22/spiderman2_wideweb__430x277,1.jpg

It's one possible solution to that problem. You'll notice that Spider-Man's costume hasn't got an huge flat blocks of colour on it either.

You know, it's a good thing you've pointed out this problem with the underwear on the outside of superhero costumes. The folks at DC should get to fixing that right away otherwise Superman and Batman might just be two pervie superheroes no one will be talking about almost 70 years after they first hit the newstands.

Oh wait . . .

[The Batman]

And before you ask - No I'm not saying that the reason that Batman and Superman are still around, still icons nearly 70 years after they were first published is because they wear their underwear on the outside. I'm also not saying that it's in spite of it. All I am saying is that it certainly hasn't seemed to hurt them.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Okay. As I've said before, people can think something's silly and still like it. I think underwear on the outside can be silly, I also think that Superman and Batman's costumes don't look right without them.

They don´t look right or you just grew too attached to the underwear in the outside to be able to see them without them?




It's one possible solution to that problem. You'll notice that Spider-Man's costume hasn't got an huge flat blocks of colour on it either.

You know, it's a good thing you've pointed out this problem with the underwear on the outside of superhero costumes. The folks at DC should get to fixing that right away otherwise Superman and Batman might just be two pervie superheroes no one will be talking about almost 70 years after they first hit the newstands.

Oh wait . . .


Oh, don´t get me wrong, I´m sure people will still talk about them.
There´s bucketloads of are countless "underwear on the outside" jokes they haven´t used yet.

And before you ask - No I'm not saying that the reason that Batman and Superman are still around, still icons nearly 70 years after they were first published is because they wear their underwear on the outside. I'm also not saying that it's in spite of it. All I am saying is that it certainly hasn't seemed to hurt them.

It didn´t?
So when people patronise comics and make fun of all the sillyness and the underwear in the outside... that´s not hurting them?
Wow.

[jackups]

most amrvel costumes look like a pile of rubbish anyway, Batman and superman look fine, if this was such a big deal it would of been changed ages ago, has it? No so people like the designs!
Plus the yellow oval only looks goood with the blue cowl , and should just be used in flashbacks