I miss the yellow oval!

[The Batman]

They don´t look right or you just grew too attached to the underwear in the outside to be able to see them without them?

I can't be the only person who thinks that the costumes look off when you start changing them. You might want to ask guys like Frank Miller, Jim Aparo, Neal Adams, Scott McDaniel, Bruce Time, Jim Lee, David Mazzuccelli, Darwyn Cooke, Jim Lee, Bob Kane, Dick Sprang, Norm Breyfogle, and so on why the underwear on the outside is still around even though it's unrealistic.



Oh, don´t get me wrong, I´m sure people will still talk about them.
There´s bucketloads of are countless "underwear on the outside" jokes they haven´t used yet.

Yeah, people kid because they love all the time. It's entirely possible to make fun of something that you love you know. I make jokes about superheroes all the time but I'll be damned if I don't think they're great. As much as you'd like to, you can't deny that for all the silliness you're complaining about guys like Batman and Superman have been successful.


It didn´t?
So when people patronise comics and make fun of all the sillyness and the underwear in the outside... that´s not hurting them?
Wow.

Well, if people are still reading the stories then no the silliness isn't hurting them is it? Batman had the underwear on the outside in Year One, did they ruin that story for you? For anyone?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I can't be the only person who thinks that the costumes look off when you start changing them.

They look off?
Or you are just too set in your ways to open your mind to the mere possibility of new ideas? I bet you HATED the uniform in Batman Begins, didn´t you?
No underwear on the outrside to make it "cool".



You might want to ask guys like Frank Miller, Jim Aparo, Neal Adams, Scott McDaniel, Bruce Time, Jim Lee, David Mazzuccelli, Darwyn Cooke, Jim Lee, Bob Kane, Dick Sprang, Norm Breyfogle, and so on why the underwear on the outside is still around even though it's unrealistic.


You may want to ask everyday Jane and Joe on the street why s/he thinks comics are kiddie stuff and underwear on the outside looks silly.



Yeah, people kid because they love all the time. It's entirely possible to make fun of something that you love you know. I make jokes about superheroes all the time but I'll be damned if I don't think they're great. As much as you'd like to, you can't deny that for all the silliness you're complaining about guys like Batman and Superman have been successful.

Really? And when did you developtelepathic powers that enable yo uto see into the hearts and minds of people?
Let me get this straight..
So, when the general public makes fun of comics and doesn´t buy them because they are silly and kiddie stuff, that means that they love comics deep down inside?
Interesting use of logic there.



Well, if people are still reading the stories then no the silliness isn't hurting them is it?

And how many people are we talking about exactly?
Please, give me your insight into comics sales figures.



Batman had the underwear on the outside in Year One, did they ruin that story for you? For anyone?


Now that you mention it, yes, it looked silly in Batman Year One as well.

[Jon-El]

I don't really think of whether people laugh at comic books and think they're silly. I just never took this stuff that seriously. No knock on anyone who does but.... I stopped reading comics when everything got so serious.

[The Batman]

They look off?
Or you are just too set in your ways to open your mind to the mere possibility of new ideas? I bet you HATED the uniform in Batman Begins, didn´t you?
No underwear on the outrside to make it "cool".

Nope, the costume in Batman Begins was alright except for the cape clasps. I preferred the one from Batman Returns though. Live action is playing by a whole different set of rules however. Back during the 'Troika' storyline when they tried to bring in a more movie styled costume it just looked like a huge black blob so they lightened things up and went with something inbetween the movie suit and the traditional Batman look.

I'm very open to the possibility of new ideas. That being said, ditching the underwear isn't a new idea and it doesn't really do much but make you less enbarrassed about reading comic books.

If you're going to assume I'm close minded I think it's fair for me to assume you're really just embarrassed about reading about superheroes and you want them to be serious and realistic so you won't have to feel that way anymore.


You may want to ask everyday Jane and Joe on the street why s/he thinks comics are kiddie stuff and underwear on the outside looks silly.

So the only reason people think comics are for kids is because of the silly underwear on the outside?


Really? And when did you developtelepathic powers that enable yo uto see into the hearts and minds of people?
Let me get this straight..
So, when the general public makes fun of comics and doesn´t buy them because they are silly and kiddie stuff, that means that they love comics deep down inside?
Interesting use of logic there.


And how many people are we talking about exactly?
Please, give me your insight into comics sales figures.

Well you can't stand the underwear on the outside and you like superheroes enough to be posting here on a superhero messageboard so I figure that people can make fun of thisngs and still like them. Also, you're the one that said people would buy comics, patronizing them, and still make fun of them, not me.

Also, I've got enough insight to not make patently absurd statements that link comics sales to things like underwear on the outside, that's for sure. Batman wears his underwear on the outside and he's probably DC's most popular, most consistently profitable hero right now. I imagine that lowering the price of comics or changing the direct market distribution would have more of an effect on sales than getting rid of something like underwear on the outside. And by more of an effect, I mean having an effect at all. If people can't get past underwear on the outside they're probably also going to have a problem with secret identities, fantastic powers, or Last Sons of Krypton that look like earthmen.

Btw, to use your line of reasoning, when underwear on the outside were even more prevelant for superhero attire, comics were selling ALOT more than they were now. Maybe current sales figures are a result of people being turned away because there's alot less silly things like underwear on the outside?



Now that you mention it, yes, it looked silly in Batman Year One as well.

So now Batman in Year One is not only not even a little realistic but now he also looked silly in the story too.

Why'd you enjoy Year One again?

[jackups]

Eliseu Gouveia Im laughing now becasue as much as you want to moan and argue with everything we are saying, the costumes are not going to change for at least a few decades so I would sit back and get used to it.

[Jon-El]

I agree that higher prices have more to do with sales than underwear. Can't believe I just wrote that!

[The Batman]

It's okay, I can't believe that I had to say it either.

[Mon-el]

It's okay, I can't believe that I had to say it either.

I can't believe this "debate" is still going on after a week of rebuttle's and back and forth "debate tactics" discussing everything from realism to comic sales due to the yellow oval. :eek:

[The Batman]

It's been fun and it's always nice to see what different things people will be willing to explain away or mistakenly call realistic and what things they think are super silly.

[Mon-el]

It's been fun and it's always nice to see what different things people will be willing to explain away or mistakenly call realistic and what things they think are super silly.

Well if your having fun, then I can't say a thing.:)

Though after awhile of reading this. I think this turned into a rumble's match more than anything (IMO).

[The Batman]

Yup. Like I said, fun. :D

I really do think that it's a mistake in the long run to scrape away all the silliness and fantasy from superheroes and to make them too serious and too realistic just to chase after some imaginary audience that won't read the books just because of underwear on the outside.

I honestly believe that if people aren't able to get past underwear on the outside, some other bit of superhero convention is going to lose them be it the secret identity, the fanatastic powers or whatever.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Nope, the costume in Batman Begins was alright except for the cape clasps. I preferred the one from Batman Returns though. Live action is playing by a whole different set of rules however. Back during the 'Troika' storyline when they tried to bring in a more movie styled costume it just looked like a huge black blob so they lightened things up and went with something inbetween the movie suit and the traditional Batman look.

So Batman Begins WAS okay without the underwear on the outside?
What happened to all the "the costume looks off without the uinderwear"?




I'm very open to the possibility of new ideas. That being said, ditching the underwear isn't a new idea and it doesn't really do much but make you less enbarrassed about reading comic books.

Hell just froze over.




If you're going to assume I'm close minded I think it's fair for me to assume you're really just embarrassed about reading about superheroes and you want them to be serious and realistic so you won't have to feel that way anymore.

Where did you get that from?
No, I´m not embarrassed about reading about superheroes.
I want them to be coherent. If this is cartoon comics, then by all means let´s have Batman running around in pink diapers.
But if we are trying to emulate reality by claiming that Batman is human like us, then could creators please at least do some effort in that direction?
Like maybe not putting a yellow target on the chest of a man who relies on hiding in the shadows.



So the only reason people think comics are for kids is because of the silly underwear on the outside?


One of the, yes.



Well you can't stand the underwear on the outside and you like superheroes enough to be posting here on a superhero messageboard so I figure that people can make fun of thisngs and still like them.

You are being dishonest, that is not the same thing and you know it very well.
Joe and Jane Average make fun of comicbooks but do not like comicbooks and sure as hell do not BUY comicbooks.



Also, you're the one that said people would buy comics, patronizing them, and still make fun of them, not me.

I have never said such a thing, you are making that up.
I said the general public didn´t buy them, PERIOD.
They make fun of them, they patronise comics.
Buying them? You wish.




Also, I've got enough insight to not make patently absurd statements that link comics sales to things like underwear on the outside, that's for sure. Batman wears his underwear on the outside and he's probably DC's most popular, most consistently profitable hero right now. I imagine that lowering the price of comics or changing the direct market distribution would have more of an effect on sales than getting rid of something like underwear on the outside. And by more of an effect, I mean having an effect at all. If people can't get past underwear on the outside they're probably also going to have a problem with secret identities, fantastic powers, or Last Sons of Krypton that look like earthmen.

Please.
Videogames are pricey as hell. Does that stop people from buying them by the millions? How many copies did Half Life 2 sold?
People don´t like comics because they´re seen as silly kiddie stuff, period.




Btw, to use your line of reasoning, when underwear on the outside were even more prevelant for superhero attire, comics were selling ALOT more than they were now.

Different times.
Notice how you didn´t mention the fact that comics were marketed toward kids who don´t care for underwear in the outside, the fact that they were practilcally the only thing kids had besides radio, the fact that comics cost less than rain water or the Whertam backlash that practically neutured comics?
You conveniently forgot to weight in those factors.



Maybe current sales figures are a result of people being turned away because there's alot less silly things like underwear on the outside?


Now you´re speculating.



So now Batman in Year One is not only not even a little realistic but now he also looked silly in the story too.

Please.
Give me the level of realism in Batman:Year one over the all-out cartoon Batgod who´s the best at everything any day of the week.
A guy who rides in a flashy car that can be seen from city blocks away in a crime-ridden hell like Gotham without being hit by RPGs on a daily basis.
Yeah, that makes sense.




Why'd you enjoy Year One again?


Its realistic, down-to-earth tone.
Why did you?

[The Batman]

So Batman Begins WAS okay without the underwear on the outside?
What happened to all the "the costume looks off without the uinderwear"?

Entirely different costumes working in entirely different mediums. What works on the comic page doesn't always work in live action and vice versa. It's not that hard of a concept to figure out.





Hell just froze over.

What? You just realized that you're arguing for superheroes to be turned into something they've never been and probably never were supposed to be?


Where did you get that from?
No, I´m not embarrassed about reading about superheroes.
I want them to be coherent. If this is cartoon comics, then by all means let´s have Batman running around in pink diapers.
But if we are trying to emulate reality by claiming that Batman is human like us, then could creators please at least do some effort in that direction?
Like maybe not putting a yellow target on the chest of a man who relies on hiding in the shadows.

There is a world of difference between Batman having the yellow oval bat symbol and Batman wearing a pink diaper; even if he's a cartoon character. One makes sense considering that he's already got a bright yellow belt strapped around his waist, the other is a pink diaper. That you want to equate the two makes me think that you're more interested in being right than in making sense.



One of the, yes.

Great. So what are the other ones? Maybe we should change all those things too. Then people will rush out to read comic books.



You are being dishonest, that is not the same thing and you know it very well.
Joe and Jane Average make fun of comicbooks but do not like comicbooks and sure as hell do not BUY comicbooks.

So these people will suddenly start buying comics when we get rid of the underwear on the outside then?


Btw, underwear on the outside and silliness didn't stop people from liking Adam West, Chris Reeve, or from buying comics in the millions for a very long time. Fancy underwear on the outsideless costumes hasn't made The Ultimates a comic that's being read much outside of the direct market either has it? if I thought that ditching the undies would really turn the industry around I'd be all for it. THe medium and the characters are bigger than underwear on the outside. As it stands, all it'd be is change for change sake and pointless and pathetic really. You seem to want superheroes to change and change and change so that finally, maybe the mainstream will accept them like they're the loser kid at school or something.



I have never said such a thing, you are making that up.
I said the general public didn´t buy them, PERIOD.
They make fun of them, they patronise comics.
Buying them? You wish.

I do wish. For their sake. They're missing out on some really great entertainment. You might also want to be more precise in your language. Your original sentence is reduntant and nonsensical.


Please.
Videogames are pricey as hell. Does that stop people from buying them by the millions? How many copies did Half Life 2 sold?
People don´t like comics because they´re seen as silly kiddie stuff, period.

How many hours of enjoyment do you get from the average video game compared to the average comic? How many places sell video games compared to places that sell comics? Which of the two is advertised better?



Different times.
Notice how you didn´t mention the fact that comics were marketed toward kids who don´t care for underwear in the outside, the fact that they were practilcally the only thing kids had besides radio, the fact that comics cost less than rain water or the Whertam backlash that practically neutured comics?
You conveniently forgot to weight in those factors.


So following your line of reasoning underwear on the outside is only one of many economic and social factors that explains how well comics sell. Do you think that maybe the cost of comics now and all the other entertainment avenues available now explains the drop in comic sales more than underwear on the outside does? For that matter, how many superheroes sitll wear thier underwear on the outside? Why are comics as a whole going down hill when it's at best the minority of superheroes that wear their underwear on the outside?

Btw, when you get rid of all the underwear on the outside do you plan to launch a advertising campaign that says 'Hey Joe and Jane Q. Public! Superheroes don't wear their underwear on the outside anymore! It's safe to read comic books again!"

Assuming that they can find someplace that sells them and they're willing to pay 3 bucks for 24 pages of story I'm sure they'll totally be glad to hear that when Superman is flying with a car in either hand or fighting a guy named Brainiac that it's serious and realistic now.


Now you´re speculating.

Obviously. Hence starting the sentence with the word 'maybe'.



Please.
Give me the level of realism in Batman:Year one over the all-out cartoon Batgod who´s the best at everything any day of the week.
A guy who rides in a flashy car that can be seen from city blocks away in a crime-ridden hell like Gotham without being hit by RPGs on a daily basis.
Yeah, that makes sense.

... and we're back to you talking about the realism of a guy surviving in an exploding building, getting shot twice, losing a bunch of blood, dodging bullets, and punching a dude through a brick wall all in row.

Cartoon characters survive explosions all the time. Batman in Year One is a cartoon character just like Batman in JLA.


Its realistic, down-to-earth tone.
Why did you?

Because it was a good story told well.

[TheWraith]

I enjoy Batman. Period. Different takes on the same character. But it is still the same character.

[Captain Jim]

Okay, everyone's had a chance to express their opinions and nobody is going to convince anybody else they're wrong. We keep hearing the same thing over and over again and have drifted way off topic. I've been gone for a week and can't believe I came back to several new pages of this. Enough! We're done.