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View Full Version : Thunderbolts Presents: Zemo - Born Better #3 *Spoilers*



mattbib
04-04-2007, 06:33 PM
This title has become a surprise joy of mine. In large part this is due to Grummet's art. I loved it in his issues of TBolts and it's just as good here.

But Fabian's story, which is so mired in history and time-travel, is quite comprehinsible and downright interesting, where it could have been a mess.

In this issue we move closer to Helmut's present, as he stands side-by-side with his great-grandfather in 1879 and then his Grandfather during WWII. The latter is especially exciting as Helmut comes face to face with James Montgomery Falsworth, the original Union Jack. The two battle, but Union Jack escapes before Grandpa Herman Zemo lets loose the mustard gas. Helmut comes to realize the futility of war, the worthlesness of it all, and seemingly detests the glorification of his family history that his own father had presented to him.

Meanwhile, in the present, Castle Zemo reappeared, fully restored, on its original land in Germany. Voker has received permission to tour the quarantined facility, unter the supervision of a local policment and an Interpol agent (one he specifically requested). While conversing with the agent, Voker shoots the policeman. He explains to the agent that he plans on being there waiting for him when Zemo finally comes back. And then he shoots the agent. And places his body in a circular formation along with a dozen or so other dead bodies...presumably all blood-relatives of Zemo.

In the past, Zemo grows tired of his grandfather and the two break into an agrument. And Zemo moves forward again. Arriving in Germany during WWII, just in time to see Hitler congratulating his own father, Heinrich.

Next issue should be a good wrap up. I can't wait to see Helmut confront Heinrich, and ultimately to return to the present and confront Voker. But will they meet as enemies? And will this series provide a clue as to Zemo's future in the current MU?

Zel
04-06-2007, 05:22 PM
I've been enjoying the series, but not much happened this issue. Unlike previous issues where he seemed to learn things about being a ruler, there wasn't much in the way of things learned here. Just a few fight scenes in different eras. I am curious as to exactly what the historian guy is up to and why he had to kill alll those people.

Trey
04-07-2007, 04:17 PM
Love Grummetts art, his layouts are awesome esp.

Its both realistic and comicky at the same time. Like Romita jr and Kolins. I love that.

SPOILER for the LAST PAge







The Nazi's salute with thier Left arms, I thought they always used the right. ANyone know for sure? According to wiki it was the right arm. I thought for sure an artist would check it out when drawing nazis.

Billy
04-07-2007, 08:56 PM
I read the first issue, I still haven't read the next two issues. I'm looking forward to it.

Whats gonna happen to Tom Grummet, I love his work, where is he going next!

Cam Man
04-08-2007, 12:18 PM
With Zemo hurtling through time to effectively take notes on good leadership, I'm wondering what is in store for him when he comes back to the present. I'm not sure if he'll form another team of T-bolts because that arc in his life seems over and I don't think Ellis has any plans for Zemo in the awsome work he's doing with T-bolts now. No, me thinks Zemo will come back and start nothing less than a new nation of his own! Maybe a "folding" country to replace his old "folding" castle! He seems headed towards Doom status to me here regardless as the series is pointing towards that. Yes? No?

The Pizza Man
04-08-2007, 08:15 PM
When exactly does this mini fit into continuity?

It would be cool if Zemo was Ronin. It could explain why he has to wear a mask. Zemo does know how to use a sword.

Though this is highly unlikely, Ronin hasn't seemed serious enough to be Zemo, unless it's all misdirection.

To bad they took Fabian off Thunderbolts, but at least he's got 2 books still.

Hope they have something else ready for him after this mini is done, Cable & Deadpool just isn't enough Nicieza a month.

mattbib
04-08-2007, 08:21 PM
When exactly does this mini fit into continuity?
After the events of Thunderbolts #108. The Voker part of the story takes place now; in the present day MU.

The Pizza Man
04-08-2007, 08:28 PM
The when was more in relation to is the present day part of the story before or after New Avengers 27 where the new Ronin first shows up.

mattbib
04-08-2007, 08:31 PM
The when was more in relation to is the present day part of the story before or after New Avengers 27 where the new Ronin first shows up.
I don't think that's been revealed yet. But GREAT question...I get what you're saying.

drwho
04-08-2007, 08:34 PM
Maybe Zemo will return to the present and discover cap is dead and take up his mantle. That would be some weird stuff right there.

Babylon23
04-08-2007, 08:52 PM
I'm thorougly enjoying this series. Given how much I dislike the current T-Bolts series, it's great to see Nicieza/Grummett get a chance to continue their work with Zemo. I hope they can do more with him once this mini finishes. I'd hate to see Zemo end up in Ellis' hands.

DoctorDoom
04-08-2007, 10:04 PM
This is actually pretty good. I'm surprised. Can't wait for number 4.

Cthulhudrew
04-09-2007, 08:44 AM
Maybe Zemo will return to the present and discover cap is dead and take up his mantle. That would be some weird stuff right there.

Especially since Zemo's not American. :p

(It would be a kind of cool story, though, especially given his and Cap's history, and his penchant for adopting the identities of national heroes.)

XPac
04-09-2007, 08:56 AM
I'll bet Zemo ends up in the Cable/Deadpool book, since Fabian is still writing that.

In some ways, Zemo and Cable are alike. They would be interesting adversaries.

Trey
04-09-2007, 03:38 PM
No thoughts on the Nazi salute on the last page? left arm instead of the historically correct right arm.

FabianNicieza
04-09-2007, 04:02 PM
XPac - by that logic, since I also wrote a few issues of NFL Superpro and Nomad, they'll be showing up in CDP as well?
No plans for either of those... or Zemo.

Trey - you were looking in a mirror while reading it, that's why the art was flopped. That's our story and we're sticking to it.

-- fabian

drwho
04-09-2007, 04:11 PM
Fabian since you brought it up. What were your thoughts when they wanted you to do NFL Superpro? Were you like wtf, or is nfl superpro something you enjoyed writing? Why do you think NFL Super pro failed as a comic?

XPac
04-09-2007, 04:25 PM
XPac - by that logic, since I also wrote a few issues of NFL Superpro and Nomad, they'll be showing up in CDP as well?
No plans for either of those... or Zemo.

-- fabian

That's kind of disappointing.

I already got my Nomad fix when you put him in TBolts (plus he's kinda dead), so his ommision is no big. But NFL Pro is kind of a bummer.

Schutzy86
04-10-2007, 12:16 AM
Well to answer your question it could be a multitude of things, perhaps he felt it would be offensive to draw the real salute in the comics, or perhaps since it's earth 616 maybe that's the salute there? More than likely though he just overlooked a small detail and has them saluting that way.

As for the comic, this has really started to make me a Zemo fan, i'm liking it.

Mississippienne
04-10-2007, 06:50 AM
No thoughts on the Nazi salute on the last page? left arm instead of the historically correct right arm.

LOL. This isn't the first time comics have gotten the Nazi salute wrong. When Captain Nazi appears in the Villains United mini he's just standing there seig-heiling away with the wrong arm. And you'd think a guy called Captain Nazi would know which arm to use!

Cthulhudrew
04-10-2007, 08:38 AM
No thoughts on the Nazi salute on the last page? left arm instead of the historically correct right arm.

Historical here in the RW. Not necessarily so in the 616 verse. :)

Nevets F
04-10-2007, 01:25 PM
I have to say, I had not planned to get this book. Luckily, my comic shop pulled it for me since I have "Thunderbolts" listed on my pull list. I decided to pick it up, and have been more and more intrigued by each issue. I have to admit, I actually love this book.

FrogMan
04-10-2007, 05:54 PM
XPac - by that logic, since I also wrote a few issues of NFL Superpro and Nomad, they'll be showing up in CDP as well?
No plans for either of those... or Zemo.

Trey - you were looking in a mirror while reading it, that's why the art was flopped. That's our story and we're sticking to it.

-- fabian

I WISH NFL SuperPro would show up in Cable/Deadpool.

Seriously.

Loving the Zemo miniseries, by the way.

XPac
04-10-2007, 09:33 PM
I WISH NFL SuperPro would show up in Cable/Deadpool.

Seriously.

Loving the Zemo miniseries, by the way.

I'd like to see Superpro too. He had a sort of Ed Wood appeal to me... it was so bad, it was actually kinda good. Ah well... maybe he'll show up in the initiative or something.

thorionthei
04-11-2007, 02:06 PM
I love this title. Fabian rocks!

FabianNicieza
04-12-2007, 12:24 PM
Fabian since you brought it up. What were your thoughts when they wanted you to do NFL Superpro? Were you like wtf, or is nfl superpro something you enjoyed writing? Why do you think NFL Super pro failed as a comic?


The great bane of my creative history... okay, the #1 bane of many banes of my creative history... was done simply and solely as a favor. Period.

We'd signed a licensing deal with the NFL to develop a property. The writers the editor had used were having trouble finalizing a plot to the satisfaction of the NFL, so editor Bob Budiansky asked me if I could help out.

No problem. A co-worker asks for your help, you help them. Simple as that. I offered to write the Special Edition to get the ball rolling. NFL was happy with what I did, so I was asked to write the first few issues of the monthly series. Which I agreed to do if I could get tickets to a Jets game.

So... little do most people know (or want to accept), but:

1) doing a licensed project with an entity as large and powerful as the NFL is a GOOD thing for a company like Marvel to do. It COULD have opened lots of doors to lots of possibilities (it didn't, but that's Monday morning quarterbacking).

2) it was specifically intended to appeal to a YOUNG AUDIENCE, something most readers then (and certainly now) don't quite seem to understand. 45 year old cynical whiners was never the intended audience for that project. 8 year old cynical whiners was.

3) I was handed the concept and character, including his basic origin. I don't know if that was all the NFL's creative work or a combination of Marvel editorial and the NFL. I didn't ask. I just wanted Jets tickets.
The fact that those issues actually sold SO well (even by the standards of that time, much less nowadays) was unexpected financial gravy.

4) For all my hard work, Bob Budiansky and a bunch of Marvel personnel got to go to the SuperBowl in Atlanta.
I got midfield tix to a Jets game and they lost by 40 points to the Colts.
I cried in all the beer I was able to buy using the royalty money from the books' sales. ;-)

Let that CLOSE THE BOOK on NFL Superpro!! ;-0

-- fabian

crimsondiablo
04-13-2007, 04:56 AM
i gotta be honest, it seems to me these days unless a book says Nicieza on it, im not very interested. i'm a huge fan of how well you still write the marvel universe the way it should be. with the outcome of civil war, and the following death of captain america, i gave up on all titles. except zemo. i started reading t-bolts with their last crossover with the avengers and have been hooked since. you've made me root for the villians, you made me a fan. it helps you that you write deadpool too, but i gotta say, keep up the great work man, your the only person writing at marvel who even gives a damn about the history and what came before.

oh and i'd buy a superpro issue just the show my support to you anyday.

FabianNicieza
04-13-2007, 06:47 AM
i gotta be honest, it seems to me these days unless a book says Nicieza on it, im not very interested. i'm a huge fan of how well you still write the marvel universe the way it should be.

oh and i'd buy a superpro issue just the show my support to you anyday.


Thanks fior the kind words, Crim, but there are lots of writers at Marvel doing excellent work and taking their characters down new, interesting and unexpected paths. Nothing wrong with shaking things up once in a while.

And if you want to support me, forget about back issue bins of Superpro, try buying Cable & Deadpool and my upcoming Action Comics issues, #848-850.

-- fabian

Lanowar
04-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Yea Zemo Born better is a big suprise to me I think IGN summed it up best it seems (to me and well them) Zemo is being taken from the Red Skull type of evil to the more Magneto school of thought. At the same time a good journey with good pacing all the while make it a good read for myself.

crimsondiablo
04-16-2007, 05:12 AM
Fabian, i sent you a PM here, i was wondering if you could take the time to read it and respond. thanks.

zhivago
04-17-2007, 06:26 AM
This series was a big surprise to me, in a positive way. This series fully develoed Zemo's character and placed him as far as possible away from the Nazi comics villain stereotype.

thorionthei
04-17-2007, 02:10 PM
I like Fabian cause he is able to toe the line between the new/hip stuff and the traditonal stuff. With most writers it's one or the other?! Fabian and Geoff are the guys who can do both IMO.

Speaking of Geoff I've been complaining how stereotypical the nazis over in JSA are. Ofcourse, I'd think that after fabian's Zemo. Maybe with Fabian doing a JSA Classified he can induce some less generic nazi villains. Though being known as a guy who creates cool nazis may not be a good thing?

FrogMan
04-30-2007, 03:50 AM
The book will never be closed on NFL SuperPro, Fabian. He's too much of a cult favorite. He's the character people can't help loving, or love to hate.

You shouldn't be ashamed of that book. The only reason it was even readable was because of you. You made the character likeable, in a Captain America, boy-scout kind of way. I wish Marvel and the NFL could work out some kind of deal where Marvel could still use him. He has a lot of potential as a character, if he could be included in non sport themed storylines.

And he'd be great in Cable/Deadpool. Just think of how you could vent your hatred of the character in all of Deadpool's insults directed at SuperPro. :)