Where does Pre-Crisis Batman ends and Post-Crisis Batman begins?

[Jermyn]

Does anyone here know where Pre-Crisis Batman ends and Post-Crisis Batman begins? Because unlike Superman and Wonder Woman, Batman didn't have his titles sent back to issue#1. So what issue of Batman and Detective Comics did the Batman of the Silver and Bronze age end and the Batman of today begin?

[shaxper]

Post-Crisis Batman begins with "Batman Year One" in issue #404. This is the post-crisis origin of Batman, followed by the post-crisis origin of Jason Todd.

[Captain Jim]

Correct, and IIRC, in Detective it was with Batman: Year Two, which followed soon thereafter in Detective #575.

[justcrash]

Correct, and IIRC, in Detective it was with Batman: Year Two, which followed soon thereafter.
Wasn't year 2 retconned out of continuity for some reason? (I liked it!)

[Citizen V]

What`s the Pre-Crisis origin of Jason Todd then?

[Captain Jim]

What`s the Pre-Crisis origin of Jason Todd then?

His parents were circus acrobats who were killed by Killer Croc.

[Captain Jim]

Wasn't year 2 retconned out of continuity for some reason? (I liked it!)

Because of the presence of Joe Chill, who was written out of continuity. But Chill is back in continuity again (see related thread), so presumably this storyline is as well.

[BeastieRunner]

Post-Crisis Batman begins with "Batman Year One" in issue #404. This is the post-crisis origin of Batman, followed by the post-crisis origin of Jason Todd.

Correct, and IIRC, in Detective it was with Batman: Year Two, which followed soon thereafter in Detective #575.

Are these the Miller/Mazzucchelli and Barr/Davis/McFarlane/Neary/Farmer/Alcala stories?

[Captain Jim]

Are these the Miller/Mazzucchelli and Barr/Davis/McFarlane/Neary/Farmer/Alcala stories?

Yes.

......

[Jim Hall]

While Batman: Year One is the generally accepted starting point for Post-Crisis Batman, he did not have a hard reboot like Superman. With Supes, all previous history was wiped out, and Man of Steel was the starting point in real time. With Batman, it was assumed that any story that did not directly contradict Post-Crisis continuity happened (or at least COULD have happened).

[Captain Jim]

While that's true, pretty much all of Jason's pre-crisis history was invalidated by his new post-crisis origin.

[Buried Alien]

While Batman: Year One is the generally accepted starting point for Post-Crisis Batman, he did not have a hard reboot like Superman. With Supes, all previous history was wiped out, and Man of Steel was the starting point in real time. With Batman, it was assumed that any story that did not directly contradict Post-Crisis continuity happened (or at least COULD have happened).

The mood of the BATMAN franchise had changed so much after BATMAN: YEAR ONE, however, that it's difficult to imagine too many Pre-COIE stories still being able to fit into Batman's history unmodified. From the Golden Age through the end of the Pre-COIE era, Batman/Bruce Wayne had a somewhat sociable, even occassionally happy-go-lucky side to him. With the publication of BATMAN: YEAR ONE and subsequent comics, it was apparent that in the new order, Batman was barely socially functional and definitely *never* happy-go-lucky at any point after the death of his parents.

Pre-COIE, Batman would sing Christmas carols with the GCPD during the holidays, share pizza with Commissioner Gordon and Catwoman, and joke around with Dick Grayson. The reformulated Batman that emerged after BATMAN: YEAR ONE could not have done any of those things.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Citizen V]

His parents were circus acrobats who were killed by Killer Croc.

I think that is similar to Robin`s origin.What`s Todd`s Post-Crisis origin?

[Captain Jim]

I did some double-checking, and while Year One and Year Two (which was published immediately after Year One) are the "easy" starting points to remember, in reality I think the technical transition happened a short time earlier, in Batman #401 and Detective #568, both of which were November, 1986 issues and both of which were also "Legends" crossovers. Previous long-standing writer Doug Moench wrapped up his tenure in Batman #400.

[Captain Jim]

I think that is similar to Robin`s origin.What`s Todd`s Post-Crisis origin?

It's similar to Dick Grayson's origin, which is why it was discarded. Post-Crisis, Jason was a (presumed) orphan who lived on the streets and stole the hubcaps off of the batmobile.

[Buried Alien]

I think that is similar to Robin`s origin.What`s Todd`s Post-Crisis origin?

Post-COIE, Jason's father was a member of Two-Face's gang who was murdered by Two-Face. Jason's adopted mother died of illness, I believe. His biological mother died at the same time that Jason did in the same explosion caused by the Joker.

Post-COIE, Batman first met Jason when Jason stole the wheels off the Batmobile. Jason was living on the streets at the time. This occurred not long after Batman had dismissed Dick Grayson as Robin.

Pre-COIE, Jason Todd's origin was indeed nearly identical to Dick Grayson's. Jason's personality Pre-COIE was also more like young Dick's...a laughing daredevil rather than a troubled street kid.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Jason's personality Pre-COIE was also more like young Dick's...a laughing daredevil rather than a troubled street kid.

Indeed. And I always preferred him as the former. (Also note that it was the latter incarnation that fans voted to kill.)

[shaxper]

I did some double-checking, and while Year One and Year Two (which was published immediately after Year One) are the "easy" starting points to remember, in reality I think the technical transition happened a short time earlier, in Batman #401 and Detective #568, both of which were November, 1986 issues and both of which were also "Legends" crossovers. Previous long-standing writer Doug Moench wrapped up his tenure in Batman #400.

I'm relatively sure post-crisis Batman didn't begin with #401. 401 featured a new villain named Magpie while 402 and 403 featured a Batman double. Neither storyline in anyway reset Batman or explored any sort of reintroduction or retelling of an origin. Also, the Robin featured in these stories is pre-crisis.

[Captain Jim]

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/thumb/a/ad/Batman_401.jpg/350px-Batman_401.jpg



http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/thumb/9/90/Detective_Comics_568.jpg/350px-Detective_Comics_568.jpg

[Buried Alien]

I'm relatively sure post-crisis Batman didn't begin with #401. 401 featured a new villain named Magpie while 402 and 403 featured a Batman double. Neither storyline in anyway reset Batman or explored any sort of reintroduction or retelling of an origin. Also, the Robin featured in these stories is pre-crisis.

It was a transitional period, and a somewhat messy one. This "Magpie," although a relatively minor character, is a somewhat important turning point between the Pre-COIE and Post-COIE continuities because she was specifically introduced as the villain of the story (from MAN OF STEEL) in which Superman and Batman first met in Post-COIE continuity.

Moreover, there had been no "Magpie" villain (at least none like the one depicted in BATMAN # 401) in Pre-COIE continuity; she was a Post-COIE creation.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

I'm relatively sure post-crisis Batman didn't begin with #401.

And I respectfully disagree. ;)

401 featured a new villain named Magpie while 402 and 403 featured a Batman double. Neither storyline in anyway reset Batman or explored any sort of reintroduction or retelling of an origin.

Never said it did. But the issues I indicated are both Legends tie-in's. Legends is ipso facto "post-Crisis". Both BM 401 & Tec 568 are done by "fill-in" writers, but the regular post-Crisis teams of Max Collins/ Jim Starlin (Batman) and Mike Barr/ Alan Davis (Detective) started the following month in BM 402 & Tec 569 respectively. And, as I indicated, pre-Crisis writer Doug Moench wrapped up his long tenure in BM 400.

Also, the Robin featured in these stories is pre-crisis.DC was certainly not 100% consistent in these matters. He hardly could have been portrayed as the "street" Jason when that version of the character wasn't introduced for a few more months. But I really don't think this is enough to negate the other factors. As I said, there was not 100% consistency in these matters. For instance, Superman had specific post-Crisis stories running in it before Byrne took over.

[Captain Jim]

It was a transitional period, and a somewhat messy one. This "Magpie," although a relatively minor character, is a somewhat important turning point between the Pre-COIE and Post-COIE continuities because she was specifically introduced as the villain of the story (from MAN OF STEEL) in which Superman and Batman first met in Post-COIE continuity.

Moreover, there had been no "Magpie" villain (at least none like the one depicted in BATMAN # 401) in Pre-COIE continuity; she was a Post-COIE creation.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Great point, Ken. I had forgotten about Magpie in Man of Steel, but that pretty much clenches it. Plus, in checking the matter further, I see that these two Magpie appearences actually both came out in the same month (November, 1986 issues - BM 401 & MOS 3). By the way, it's worth noting in this context that the cover of Batman 401, which features Magpie very prominently, is done by John Byrne.

[Captain Jim]

http://images.wikia.com/marvel_dc/images/7/74/Man_of_Steel_3.jpg

[Chad]

Legends is ipso facto "post-Crisis". Both BM 401 & Tec 568 are done by "fill-in" writers, but the regular post-Crisis teams of Max Collins/ Jim Starlin (Batman) and Mike Barr/ Alan Davis (Detective) started the following month in BM 402 & Tec 569 respectively. And, as I indicated, pre-Crisis writer Doug Moench wrapped up his long tenure in BM 400.

Legends is unusual in that it definately features the post-Crisis Superman. However it references the Joker/Catwoman Detective 569/570 crossover which is definately pre-Crisis. Tec 568 is pre-Crisis but ties in with Legends so it's as if Legends took place on both the pre-Crisis and post-Crisis universe.

The first Detective Comics issue which is without a doubt post-Crisis is Detective 573 which ties in with Year Two. Actually 573 doesn't tie in with anything post-Crisis, but it's a two part story with 574 detailing the New Origin of Batman. It refers to Miller's Year One and adds details such as Bruce Wayne returning to Crime Alley to get the gun that killed his parents (story elements which foreshadowed events in Year Two). Detective 572 is an anniversary story (50 years of Detective Comics) and could go either way. 571 is a Scarecrow story and could go either way as well.

Batman 400 is certainly pre-Crisis but 401 uses Magpie who was introduced post-Crisis in Man of Steel. I guess she could have been part of both universes as well.

Something interesting about Batman 402/403 - Batman admits that early in his career he did kill criminals. This admission doesn't fit in with either the pre-Crisis or post-Crisis Batman.

[Buried Alien]

Something interesting about Batman 402/403 - Batman admits that early in his career he did kill criminals. This admission doesn't fit in with either the pre-Crisis or post-Crisis Batman.

It would fit the Pre-COIE Batman on Earth-Two (the Golden Age Batman), however.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Captain Jim]

Legends is unusual in that it definately features the post-Crisis Superman. However it references the Joker/Catwoman Detective 569/570 crossover which is definately pre-Crisis. Tec 568 is pre-Crisis but ties in with Legends so it's as if Legends took place on both the pre-Crisis and post-Crisis universe.

The first Detective Comics issue which is without a doubt post-Crisis is Detective 573 which ties in with Year Two. Actually 573 doesn't tie in with anything post-Crisis, but it's a two part story with 574 detailing the New Origin of Batman. It refers to Miller's Year One and adds details such as Bruce Wayne returning to Crime Alley to get the gun that killed his parents (story elements which foreshadowed events in Year Two). Detective 572 is an anniversary story (50 years of Detective Comics) and could go either way. 571 is a Scarecrow story and could go either way as well.

Batman 400 is certainly pre-Crisis but 401 uses Magpie who was introduced post-Crisis in Man of Steel. I guess she could have been part of both universes as well.

Something interesting about Batman 402/403 - Batman admits that early in his career he did kill criminals. This admission doesn't fit in with either the pre-Crisis or post-Crisis Batman.


All of which serves to reinforce and demonstrate what Buried said earlier, that "It was a transitional period, and a somewhat messy one." Anyone looking for 100% consistency simply isn't going to find it. Nevertheless, I continue to maintain that what I've mentioned above demonstrates pretty clearly that, as far as DC was concerned at the time, this is where they were beginning something new. It wasn't completely ironed out in their minds yet just what that "new" thing was, so there were multiple inconsistencies, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter.

Still, if that doesn't work for you personally (not just talking to Chad now, but anyone), hey, no one's forcing this on you. Feel free to make your own decision. :)

[Flash's Lightning]

While Batman: Year One is the generally accepted starting point for Post-Crisis Batman, he did not have a hard reboot like Superman. With Supes, all previous history was wiped out, and Man of Steel was the starting point in real time. With Batman, it was assumed that any story that did not directly contradict Post-Crisis continuity happened (or at least COULD have happened).

Okay, now, didn't DC recently say that the majority of Batman comics are in continuity now? I'm still trying to figure this out.

[muerte]

the jason todd in the late 300's was kinda along the same lines as the post crisis attitude wise,from what i've read
i don't know anything about him in earlier stories,he was never really chipper or easy going in any of the stories i read about him,in fact he was kinda disgusted with dick for being so light hearted,or that's the way i interpreted it

[areacode212]

Legends is unusual in that it definately features the post-Crisis Superman. However it references the Joker/Catwoman Detective 569/570 crossover which is definately pre-Crisis. Tec 568 is pre-Crisis but ties in with Legends so it's as if Legends took place on both the pre-Crisis and post-Crisis universe.

The first Detective Comics issue which is without a doubt post-Crisis is Detective 573 which ties in with Year Two. Actually 573 doesn't tie in with anything post-Crisis, but it's a two part story with 574 detailing the New Origin of Batman. It refers to Miller's Year One and adds details such as Bruce Wayne returning to Crime Alley to get the gun that killed his parents (story elements which foreshadowed events in Year Two). Detective 572 is an anniversary story (50 years of Detective Comics) and could go either way. 571 is a Scarecrow story and could go either way as well.

Batman 400 is certainly pre-Crisis but 401 uses Magpie who was introduced post-Crisis in Man of Steel. I guess she could have been part of both universes as well.

Something interesting about Batman 402/403 - Batman admits that early in his career he did kill criminals. This admission doesn't fit in with either the pre-Crisis or post-Crisis Batman.

Stuff like this is why I wish they had stuck with Hypertime as the way of explaining DC's continuity errors. I just imagine that there were some crazy time fluxes causing bleedover between timelines and leave it at that.

[Mat001]

Okay, now, didn't DC recently say that the majority of Batman comics are in continuity now? I'm still trying to figure this out.

Morrison has said that a lot of the stories are in continuity, but that things vary depending on the experiments and what Milo's gas did to him.

There were retcons that said which stories happened where and when, but I think with "Infinite Crisis", some of those retcons have been undone. Thus he knew Kathy Kane as Batwoman, post "Infinite Crisis".

[Captain Jim]

Okay, now, didn't DC recently say that the majority of Batman comics are in continuity now? I'm still trying to figure this out.

Morrison is operating under the philosophy that the majority of the Batman tales from 1939 to present happened in one way or another (sometimes literally, sometimes only in Bruce's mind). But there are certainly exceptions to this, and it would be ludicrous to contend, for instance, that both pre and post-Crisis versions of Jason's origin and early days are still in continuity.