Non-American characters

[lalo]

Speaking of GREAT TEN, why does almost every superhero from a country other than the USA have to have some motif identifying them as representative of that country? Is the perception out there that American readers can't keep straight that a hero's home nation is, say, England if he doesn't wear a British flag or have a name like Captain Britain or Union Jack? Does every hero from Japan have to wear samurai armor or a rising sun emblem? Would South Americans even dress up as conquistadors? Does everyone really think Americans are that stupid, or are we trying to draw the attention of readers of those nationalities portrayed (usually with only the most fleeting knowledge of the mores, behavior and culture of those nationalities), or is it just a running exercise in benign bigotry?

FWIW, as someone who has lived in two places, none of which are America (and, for that matter, both of which have long had fictional heroes/villains in Marvel and DC), I actually do think that's reasonable.

See, the thing here is that each of these fictional countries has a very small number of "meta-humans". It's not that the readers won't remember his country if he doesn't wear a flag; it's that he (the character) might be afraid the international "meta-human" community might. If I got superpowers, say, 10 years ago, when I had never set my feet outside Brazil, and I was the only Brazilian with powers, as opposed to hundreds of Americans... would I wear a flag? Probably not, because I'd look stupid, but I would certainly choose some distinctively Brazilian theme, just because that would be the easiest kind of identity for me to pick.

And then there are other cases; you cite Union Jack, for example. Well, he started in a time of patriotism; in fact he was Britain's answer to Captain America. And the Great Ten, and Rocket Red, and those awful Marvel Russian heroes? It stands to reason that, in a "communist" state, heroes would be considered a state resource, and then "branded" in some nationalistic way for psychological reasons.

Now you could ask; if that's true, then why didn't the Fantastic Four, Peter Parker, and Tony Stark wear some kind of flag? After all, they were the "first" to get powers.

Well, because they weren't :-) the memory of Captain America was still fresh. And even if they were, they would be the first in the world, not in a country when other countries already have a lot. (And even then, I'm not convinced Stark doesn't wear his own idea of a flag. America was, by that time, seen by the world as the primary source of all innovation and technology; so I do think his choice of theme still fits my theory.)

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I always find it amusing when superheroes go to this place called 'Australia'.

It may work for American audiences, but it never feels quite right.

Also, recent reference photos always help, and a quick look at a map wouldn't be too bad either.
You can't cross Sydney running, and it takes hours and hours to get to the desert.

The worst ever, for Australia, goes to Mission Impossible 2. I don't think there was a single part that felt true.
Top Secret bases on Fort Denisson, streets/parks with way too many people on/in them etc.
Totally ruined my suspension of disbelief (well, that and the plot itself).

Anyway, that's just when characters visit a place - setting a whole book in another country is asking a lot...
But then again, hasn't DC got a Vietnamese writer on the book?
I'm sure he knows how to authentically write Chinese characters.

[cfutino]

See, the thing here is that each of these fictional countries has a very small number of "meta-humans". It's not that the readers won't remember his country if he doesn't wear a flag; it's that he (the character) might be afraid the international "meta-human" community might. If I got superpowers, say, 10 years ago, when I had never set my feet outside Brazil, and I was the only Brazilian with powers, as opposed to hundreds of Americans... would I wear a flag? Probably not, because I'd look stupid, but I would certainly choose some distinctively Brazilian theme, just because that would be the easiest kind of identity for me to pick.
[/SIZE]

First of all, it stretches suspension of disbelief to think every super-hero on the world lives in the US (unless it's part of the plot, like in Rising Stars). It's more belivable to say we're reading their stories because that's what the writers want to tell, but the Brazilian, Dutch and Japanese exist, and are having adventures as we read others.

Second, even if I was the only brazilian super-hero around, I don't tink I'd call myself Captain Tupiniquim or something like that. I'd probably want to make a name for myself, not because of where I was born.

[Brenz]

Maybe superheroes are the popstars of the Marvel or DCUs, everybody ends up in New York or LA, and they're selling themselves on their point of origin like a lot of celebrities do?

Didn't Contest of Champions kind of start this?

[lalo]

I always find it amusing when superheroes go to this place called 'Australia'.

It may work for American audiences, but it never feels quite right.

Heh yeah. That's another point entirely, and there I have to agree with you. When someone in comics or movies goes to Brazil, it's all forests and Spanish architecture, and I think, "where the hell is this place?". Hats off to the recent Checkmate issue; the place actually looked like Alto da Boa Vista, where a mansion like that would probably be (that's on top of the hills running trough the middle of Rio). Although, to be fair, they did pick a forest-ish place :evilsmile

Still, that's not what the article was talking about.

[lalo]

First of all, it stretches suspension of disbelief to think every super-hero on the world lives in the US (unless it's part of the plot, like in Rising Stars). It's more belivable to say we're reading their stories because that's what the writers want to tell, but the Brazilian, Dutch and Japanese exist, and are having adventures as we read others.

I don't know. With the way the Marvel/DC universes work, I think we'd hear about them. Rather, my interpretation is that it does somehow run into the story.

For Marvel, I think the explanation is actually quite simple. Super-beings aren't an American phenomenon, but costumed ones are (mostly). I'd expect most of the world to have more or less the same concentration of, for example, mutants, than anyone else; but most of them don't go to Xavier's or decide to join Magneto's crusade or whatever.

Also, a large portion of "super-powered" people have something to do with technology -- either Iron-Man style (they just use it), or like Captain America, Hulk, Wolverine, Spidey, and so on -- they get changed because of it. And in the 616 universe, technology is concentrated in North America and Japan (previously North America and USSR), even more than on the real world.

The DCU follows a similar logic. Many of them are aliens, or have alien-related origins. And it's reasonable that aliens would go to either the politically dominant nation, or the one with most tech. And then there's Fire; before her government stuck her on the Global Guardians, she was a secret agent. How many meta-humans do you think are in secret services around the world?

Second, even if I was the only brazilian super-hero around, I don't tink I'd call myself Captain Tupiniquim or something like that. I'd probably want to make a name for myself, not because of where I was born.

You still have to pick some kind of name, theme, identity. And I think, for a large number of reasons -- patriotism, tongue firmly planted in cheek, cultural background, or just a desire to set yourself apart from the Americans -- there would be a large chance you'd pick something that would "feel" Brazilian. For example: American chick gets light-based powers. What will she call herself? Well, why not "Captain Marvel". Brazilian guy gets the same power? Probably Boitatá, because it's such a cool legend. Canadian guy gets all big and hairy? Sasquatch is a much cooler name than, say, Furball. Why not?

The thing many Americans don't seem to have a dimension of is, most places of the world are, and have been for decades, deeply drowned in American culture. Most of my favourite bands are British, my favourite writers American or British. It's all one big village, mass media has seen to that. And this action does cause a reaction; proud people of places with their own, rich culture, will start valuing this culture much more. Yes, of course not all guys will pick some sort of national theme, but my point is, I think it's perfectly reasonable that a large number of them will. Because, if you weren't proud and at least a bit idealistic, you wouldn't be running (or flying) around in costume.

Well, unless you're an attention seeker, like Booster Gold or Capitão Forsa (misspelled, by the way). In which case, well you have all kinds of marketing issues to worry about, and it would still be wise to use something that makes people think of where you're from :D

[plainbrownwraper]

Simply, comics are not real places or people, they are symbols that may or may not resemble anything real, or at least real in the physical sense. Captain America represents a cultural ideal, the supersoldier/jock, whatever - it's an idealization, a symbol, and symbols are often best kept fairly simple.

As you rise up the abstraction ladder, then the simple does often become the simplistic, it really depends on your audience: as comics readers have become older and more sophisticated, and the world smaller and more complicated, some of these traditional symbolic conventions appear to have become dated in certian circumstances.

Writers - or artists - depicting places they've never been typically fall back on stereotypes, and most audiences tend to respond to these sterotypes: i.e., the broadest appeal.

Personally, I would prefer to avoid attempting to depict recognizable scenes that are outside my direct experience, but then if I made it an issue, Spiderman would seldom swing from anything manmade much higher than a strip mall - he'd have to take up canyoneering.

Ideally, and it's a practice I've tried to promote, writers, who often write about the cites they live in, and working with an artist from elsewhere, should buy a digital camera and take shot of the things they'd like to see, so as not to be embarassed when their fellow citizens see the book.

i.e., depending on just how plausible one feels the contextual milieu should be, part of the writers obligation is to furnish the artist with enough reference to achieve a reasonable level of plausability.

I could spend months researching a particular city, wheras I could probobly construct plausible set shots from a half a dozen well chosen photos that I might not otherwise find anywhwere else, no matter how long I searched.

Being symbolic, it can take a suprisingly small amount of detail to establish a plausible setting - a sillhouette shot of the Sydney opera house, and anybody not from Australia is going to accept the location, however ridiculous the remainder may be - if you want to go further than that and think it neccessary, then you'll have to take steps.

If the writer has never been there, well then, you'll just have to take your chances, although I did have an idea once where creators could network, and compile reference, photographic and cultural, from their various locales, to ease the process a bit.

Otherwise, the bulk of what I know about Austrailian landscape and culture I have comes from various Paul Hogan movies and bits, and the odd movie - most of which of course, are set in the outbackm I don't believe Austrailian urban life has ever actually been depicted in a movie, not any I've seen anyway - MI2 I must have seen but strangely, my memory of it is even less than fragmentary, Tom Cruise was in it I hear.

Hell, most of this country doesn't know that New Mexico is even part of the United States, much less what it looks like or what the people are like.

Tobbacco chewing hillbillies charging you for uneccessary repairs apparently - that's actually Texas, not NM.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

The real irony is that American writers keep giving foreign super heroes motifs based on their country that they don't give to American superheroes, when it would most likely be American superheroes who would be the one's to dress in flag colours and call themselves Patriot Man or Free Speech Man etc.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Otherwise, the bulk of what I know about Austrailian landscape and culture I have comes from various Paul Hogan movies and bits, and the odd movie - most of which of course, are set in the outbackm I don't believe Austrailian urban life has ever actually been depicted in a movie, not any I've seen anyway - MI2 I must have seen but strangely, my memory of it is even less than fragmentary, Tom Cruise was in it I hear.


There's plenty of films depicitng Australian urban life, one's that did repectable business overseas, although it's been awhile since there was a good one (I think Lantana was the last one I saw, although if I remember correctly, it didn't fair to well in Mr.Grant's review).

The best shots of seen of Sydney looking normal are often in big American blockbusters set in America, but filmed in Sydney.
Some of the street scenes in The Matrix capture quite well what a Sydney street looks like (although it may be vague to people not from here - my eyes immedialty latched onto all the little details), it did a much better job than MI:2.

The depiction in comics that bothered me was in X-treme X-men, when they came to Sydney.
The artist drew Circular Quay (the stretch of harbour between the bridge and the Opera House) quite well, and hyad obviously used reference.
My probelm was that the reference was dated and it doesn't look like that now - certainly it looked better in the time where he got that reference from, but it hasn't looked that way in about 10-15 years.

[mattx110]

well, a few of these superheroes are kinda, commissioned by their gov'ts because the US had so many superheroes. captain britian was a gov't thing i think. and the great ten is a gov't taskforce.

the us has nothing to prove when it comes to having superheroes. other countries don't have a million superpeople, so theirs have more pride in their country.

[Steven Grant]

There's plenty of films depicitng Australian urban life, one's that did repectable business overseas, although it's been awhile since there was a good one (I think Lantana was the last one I saw, although if I remember correctly, it didn't fair to well in Mr.Grant's review).

I ****ing hated it...

- Grant

[plainbrownwraper]

Again, you've gotta draw a page, and you have a deadline - if you could just jet off to Austrailia to take a pic, you probobly wouldn't be drawing comix, so you work with what you've got.

Most movies, you never know where they were shot till the credits roll: nine times out of ten it's probobly Toronto.

Like I said, it would be cool if if there were some sort of reference exchange site where you could ask for reference from a certain city, and somebody who lives there could give you what you needed.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I ****ing hated it...

- Grant

I do wonder if I would like it as much as I do if it didn't feel so real/familiar to me - it really got the tone of the locations and characters right (must be how you feel about Ocean's 11/Vegas).
I've seen films from other countries where I'm left wondering 'What's all that about', but were huge in their own countries.

Again, you've gotta draw a page, and you have a deadline - if you could just jet off to Austrailia to take a pic, you probobly wouldn't be drawing comix, so you work with what you've got.

I remember reading an interview in the 90's where Brian Pulido and Jim Balent said they went to Egypt to research their opus 'Purgatory' (which was about a red skinned lesbian vampire) and wondering if the Chaos! audience would actually care.

Most movies, you never know where they were shot till the credits roll: nine times out of ten it's probobly Toronto.

Or Prauge.
It's all down to which country charges the least for shooting and crew rates.

[Steven Grant]

I do wonder if I would like it as much as I do if it didn't feel so real/familiar to me - it really got the tone of the locations and characters right (must be how you feel about Ocean's 11/Vegas).
I've seen films from other countries where I'm left wondering 'What's all that about', but were huge in their own countries.

You do realize that, exteriors aside, the Las Vegas of either OCEAN'S 11 bears virtually no similarity to the real one, and those hotels aren't even owned by the same person/company. Not that I didn't like the movie, but the verisimilitude was, well, shaky...

I hated LANTANA because the story was blazingly pointless, and I just wanted to kick the idiot characters repeatedly in the head...

- Grant

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

You do realize that, exteriors aside, the Las Vegas of either OCEAN'S 11 bears virtually no similarity to the real one, and those hotels aren't even owned by the same person/company. Not that I didn't like the movie, but the verisimilitude was, well, shaky...

Yeah, I was taking the piss there.

Out of curiosity though, have any movies captured the tone of the place right?
It's hard to tell as so many films set in Vegas seem obsessed with the myth of vegas.
I'm hoping Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas is pretty accurate.


I hated LANTANA because the story was blazingly pointless, and I just wanted to kick the idiot characters repeatedly in the head...

- Grant

That's Australia for you.

[Steven Grant]

Out of curiosity though, have any movies captured the tone of the place right?

Not really. ONE TO THE HEART, maybe, not that it's a good movie. Everyone focuses on a basically mythic version of Glitter Gulch and/or The Strip that's already 40 years out of date and wasn't terribly accurate when it was contemporary. But the fact is that Las Vegas is pretty much like any other city in America, once you get off the Strip. Except with sand and casinos.

I'm hoping Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas is pretty accurate.

Umm... not really...

That's Australia for you.

Believe me, Australia doesn't exactly corner the market on blazingly pointless stories with idiot characters...

- Grant

[Zeb Oswalt]

I see your point. Comics do it to those in the US as well See so called Louisiana. I still try not to retch every time I see Gambit. Is this how the world thinks we talk? Persian french Oy. Not even Real Persian french, but TV Persian French. Photon is the only one I know of with out the over done Ascent. And I'm not sure if they've screwed that up with the former Captain Marvel yet either. And we have roads here. Only time I saw a bayou was at USL and it's put their to look festive. Or at lest some thing to look at before class and it's gated off. Small Gator's are brought in to add to it. Since again you Rarely see Gator's here unless you in the Country. And mostly their in Gator farms. If your in a small enough Parish you might see one or two, but I haven't. And defiantly aren't going to see them here near New Orleans in Covington or way over in Lafayette. Oh and the Vudoo stuff that's for Tourists. What little is there is to entertain people visiting. Listen to Brittany Spears. Though a bit odd she does not sound like a cast off from some French character in an American movie in the 50s.

The French people I've met don't talk like that. Well, those I knew back in collage. It's sad they have no idea what Cajun French is. Some comic joke of Persian French is what they have Gambit speak. I'm so glad he wasn't in the Movie. That would have been hirable.

[Gnarl]

The real irony is that American writers keep giving foreign super heroes motifs based on their country that they don't give to American superheroes, when it would most likely be American superheroes who would be the one's to dress in flag colours and call themselves Patriot Man or Free Speech Man etc.

Pretty much. And I think that is actually part of the reason, in a way. The rest of the world is probably less inclined to put on costumes and settle things with violence.

I think most superhumans in other parts of the world grow quietly rich off their powers without putting their life on the line.

Any Swiss equivalent of Polaris probably makes millions working as a cyclotron.

[Brenz]

Claremont doesn't count. That's an entirely different world in his crazy soap opera brain.

I see your point. Comics do it to those in the US as well See so called Louisiana. I still try not to retch every time I see Gambit. Is this how the world thinks we talk? Persian french Oy. Not even Real Persian french, but TV Persian French. Photon is the only one I know of with out the over done Ascent. And I'm not sure if they've screwed that up with the former Captain Marvel yet either. And we have roads here. Only time I saw a bayou was at USL and it's put their to look festive. Or at lest some thing to look at before class and it's gated off. Small Gator's are brought in to add to it. Since again you Rarely see Gator's here unless you in the Country. And mostly their in Gator farms. If your in a small enough Parish you might see one or two, but I haven't. And defiantly aren't going to see them here near New Orleans in Covington or way over in Lafayette. Oh and the Vudoo stuff that's for Tourists. What little is there is to entertain people visiting. Listen to Brittany Spears. Though a bit odd she does not sound like a cast off from some French character in an American movie in the 50s.

The French people I've met don't talk like that. Well, those I knew back in collage. It's sad they have no idea what Cajun French is. Some comic joke of Persian French is what they have Gambit speak. I'm so glad he wasn't in the Movie. That would have been hirable.

[Zeb Oswalt]

Claremont doesn't count. That's an entirely different world in his crazy soap opera brain.

Yeah his is the worst, but no one in the major comics writes people from Louisiana correctly. Photon is about it. I speak maybe 10 words of Cajun French and most of them are not printable. Mostly old people here speak it. Heck in New Orleans even fewer. A few in Lafayette, more in Alexandra. not many in Shreveport, Wasn't in Baton Rouge long enough to know. But, no one I've meet from there speaks it. I knew one lady whom spoke high brow English. One of the Reasons I based the regulators in New Orleans since I know how to write Cajun Characters. And hey I think the world knows by now not every one here is of french descent. We have German towns etc. Granted towns are called Parishes here.German towns are still called German towns every thing else is a parish. But, other than Dejavu has Hollywood even bothered to realize the ascent is not shown much here. This movie was done right. The Big Easy was the worst. Cher was said threw the whole movie and she wasn't in it. The word is May Sha or Cha. In a girl Friend case as the character used it the word would be Mon Pue Pet. (Baby Doll.) But, I only use em if I'm dating a woman not from here and want to impress her. In comics M.M. even got it wrong. In Ultament X-Men.

It's just across the board in the big I'll say 5. It's never been handled right. Basically they should do it as done in Phantom when she was Captain Marvel...I.E. no ascent. Granted she wouldn't have one since she's from New Orleans. Thanx for your time.

[Strannik]

I could go on and on about how Russians and Russia/Soviet Union in general have been wrongfully portrayed in comics for about as long as comics existed. It's incredibly rare to find a credible Russian character, let alone a credible Russian superhero/super-villain. And don't even get me started on all the spelling, grammar and word construction issues, not to mention the geographical mistakes, the painful misunderstanding of the way Russian language works... Like I said, I could go on and on.