Is Punisher the new Captain America?

[Sebastian Zero]

He can't really take up Cap's mantal can he?

Yes, we've seen from War Journal how much he respects Cap, but this would be too much wouldn't it? It wouldn't happen would it?


Except.........

This is a spoiler zone so I don't mind saying... Frank is holding the mask of his hero at the end, realizing his no-nonsense destiny.

MM

That's from Millar.

And

PUNISHER WAR JOURNAL #7
Written by MATT FRACTION
Pencils and 50/50 Covers by ARIEL OLIVETTI
BLOOD AND SAND, PART 2
“I want Frank Castle -- the scourge of the underworld -- to die in the Sonoma desert playing dress-up.” With that line, the all-new Hate Monger begins the execution ceremony of the Punisher -- and nothing will ever be the same. Massacre after brutal massacre along the border brought Frank to the desert, but what horrible things does he find hiding behind the killings? What atrocities could possibly drive Frank to don a new costume? And how could it all go so terribly wrong? The American dream continues to become an unholy nightmare for Frank and everybody else in his orbit.

Playing dress up? Don a new costume? The American dream?

I've got a baaaaaaaaaaad feeling about this.

[Magneto Rocks]

New Cap? No way.

I take it as a strong indicator that he may become more of a hero, or that he CAN be, rather than an antihero.

But Brubaker flat out said Steve Rogers is still Cap after civil war.

[Jmacq1]

Maybe for all of one issue. ;) *cough*

But no, I don't really believe Captain America #25 is the death of Cap. Probably of Nick Fury, instead.

And Punisher might play at being Cap for a few issues, but I don't think anyone will take him any more seriously than John Walker was in "New Invaders".

[myslead]

"playing dress-up" is a figure of speech. playing dress-up as in humiliate him.

[XPac]

I don't think Punisher could be Captain America.

But the truth of the matter is I don't think Caps ideals are necessarily in sync with the country anymore. Maybe Steve shouldn't be Captain America.

It's just not his america anymore. I wish it was... but the people made it pretty clear that they are willing to fight for Tonys america and not Steves.

Of course, one can also argue that Cap doesn't actually respresent the american people or even the country itself, but rather a set of ideals. But if the country itself doesn't represent those ideals, it almost becomes a flawed symbol.

Of course, I'm just speaking hypothetically... Steve is and always will be Captain America. But if I were him, I'd seriously question wearing that suit again.

[myslead]

he could rename himself to Captain [insert cool name here] ... but then again, the captain in nextwave showed us how hard it was to have a cool superhero name with captain in it :p

[XPac]

he could rename himself to Captain [insert cool name here] ... but then again, the captain in nextwave showed us how hard it was to have a cool superhero name with captain in it :p

Well, Cap for a while did just go by Captain. But that wasn't very cool (though I did actually like the black outfit that US Agent now wears).

If there were a time to be Nomad again, it might be now.

[Jmacq1]

You hit it on the head though, XPac. Cap's about ideals, not necessarily what the American people think at the moment. And the instances where his ideals and those of the American people diverge have given rise to many of the central conflicts within Cap as a character. He's -always- questioned whether or not he's outdated, unneeded, etc... Whether or not his ideals are truly "right" and whether or not he should maybe compromise them for the greater good.

But I would argue that we've -never- seen Steve this "defeated" before. Even with the Nomad incident, he never stopped super-heroing. He may have taken a new identity and costume, but he was still fighting the good fight. When the CSA stripped him of the mantle, he turned around and became "The Captain." When he was accused of treason, he turned his costume and shield in and promptly picked up a new one.

But now? He appears content to rot in prison (or at least that's the impression given by the epilogue). He's not fighting anymore. He's broken. Not just beaten, but potentially permanently damaged.

Maybe that'll change once Cap #25 hits next week, but that remains to be seen.

[lonewolf23k]

Looks like Steve's hit rock bottom... And you know what they say..

"Once you hit the Bottom, there's nowhere to go but Up."

Looks like now's a good time for Steve to take some time off, reflect on his past and make some decisions concerning his future...

[StoneGold]

Steve still being Cap wouldn't necessarily stop Frank from dressing up like him. Anyone read the last issue of Sensational Spider-Man?

[HOLD DAT]

Castle as Captain America would really piss a lot of people off...alot of other heroes especially the now defeated anti-regers would never let him "dishonor" the legacy

I'd give my left arm to see the Punisher as the new Cap...but it wont happen. Nobody would except it. Tony would be so pissed he'd fry a microchip in his brain

[Conn Seanery]

It might be an interesting experiment, something like when the Human Torch tried to watch over Hell's Kitchen for Daredevil and failed miserably. Only with more dead people.

[XPac]

Maybe this is what motivated Steve to get out of jail.

If he finds out Frank is going around gunning people down in his costume, Steve might bust out to take down Frank.

[lonewolf23k]

I doubt Frank would put on Cap's costume...

...But he might make a costume based off of it...

[Thursaiz]

This is really the natural progression for Punisher. It seemed that in Civil War, he has so much respect for what he views as a superior officer. When once officer goes down, the next in line is promoted. He must see his role in things diminishing after all of these super-teams in the U.S.

Someone has to carry on the legacy of Steve Rogers. Who would be better? The only other candidate would be Bucky...but his current stint and storyline is pretty damned cool.

[XPac]

I doubt Frank would put on Cap's costume...

...But he might make a costume based off of it...

I'm suprised Frank wears a costume at all.

[lonewolf23k]

I'm suprised Frank wears a costume at all.

Well, he's always had the Skull trademark. At first, he wore a costume like every other super, then switched to casual clothing with a Skull shirt when he started dealing almost exclusively with ordinary criminals.

His new costume is basically advanced kevlar armor.

[Outlaws eXtreme]

He could always be the new "Ronin". :P I mean, he is a samurai without a master now... (ala no Cap America). He also needs some way to gain support for his "heroism" (joining the Avengers). Lastly, he's not hesitant if need be to use a sword/weapons, etc.

[PunisherFan]

I think that if Castle was going to be Captain America or even wear the suit it would be a major story in Captain America.... not Pt 2 of a story in Punisher War Journal. By the way I think it'd be a bad idea, i like the Punisher like he is...no need to change him. And after Civil War sucked big time I don't think Marvel is looking to piss off more fans... although..

[The Punished]

I think that if Castle was going to be Captain America or even wear the suit it would be a major story in Captain America.... not Pt 2 of a story in Punisher War Journal. By the way I think it'd be a bad idea, i like the Punisher like he is...no need to change him. And after Civil War sucked big time I don't think Marvel is looking to piss off more fans... although..

Agreed. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

[Jmacq1]

He could always be the new "Ronin". :P I mean, he is a samurai without a master now... (ala no Cap America). He also needs some way to gain support for his "heroism" (joining the Avengers). Lastly, he's not hesitant if need be to use a sword/weapons, etc.

Only if Bendis has the worst grasp of Punisher's dialogue -ever-. Have we -ever- heard the Punisher say "Yo?"

Besides, he'd know all about Spider-Man's banter.

Though I have to admit, the supreme irony of the Punisher being Ronin and running to the rescue of one of Daredevil's girlfriends is just...really funny to me. (Especlally when Echo asks if he's Matt...that whole "Not exactly" response suddenly becomes hilarious).

[protege]

He could always be the new "Ronin". :P I mean, he is a samurai without a master now... (ala no Cap America). He also needs some way to gain support for his "heroism" (joining the Avengers). Lastly, he's not hesitant if need be to use a sword/weapons, etc.

I might actually like that idea, except I have no clue if Frank ever trained as a ninja, or Samurai- anything other than a soldier.

[Outlaws eXtreme]

I might actually like that idea, except I have no clue if Frank ever trained as a ninja, or Samurai- anything other than a soldier.

He does have hand to hand training... and can use a sword if need be. He may not be as agile as others, but I'm sure he would be able to still kick someone's butt with his fist.

That's just my take on it...

[Magneto Rocks]

From an interview with Brubaker- do we have an answer?


I know that there?s a sort of twisted bastardized version of the Captain America costume happening in one of my friends? comics.

With that quote plus him being Matt Fraction's friend (they write Iron Fist together) i think we have our answer.

[InsaneGame]

Hello all this is my first post and i've been reading the boards for all of civil war.

This hit me for what Frank might do and well i found it funny.

He is going to become Corporal Punishment:cool:

[StoneGold]

Only if Bendis has the worst grasp of Punisher's dialogue -ever-. Have we -ever- heard the Punisher say "Yo?"


Recently? No. In the 80s/90s I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm not going to go through a gazillion back issues to find an instance. But it ain't Castle. If anything just because Cage was the one most loudly denouncing using Castle in the antis to begin with.

[MAK15]

Recently? No. In the 80s/90s I wouldn't be surprised. But I'm not going to go through a gazillion back issues to find an instance. But it ain't Castle. If anything just because Cage was the one most loudly denouncing using Castle in the antis to begin with.

yeah. Luke did not like frank at all.
didnt even try to hide it.

[SKJAM!]

I can see the Punisher in one of his more manic phases putting on Cap's mask, but not otherwise changing his outfit, then gunning down some crooks for America.

[StoneGold]

Hell, I can even see Castle doing what Walker did in Invaders, just start wearing the uniform and calling himself Cap, even while Cap is standing there right next to him.

[Sebastian Zero]

And what epitomises the spirit of America more than liberal use of firearms and violence?






That's a mean joke, I apologise.

[Bordnlazy]

Dumb as it sounds ,remember that what if issue, What if frank castle became captain america.

I think the punisher will put on the costume for an issue or two for sure. Everything so far implies it.

[DoctorDoom]

It's just like that What if...

[The Punished]

Hello all this is my first post and i've been reading the boards for all of civil war.

This hit me for what Frank might do and well i found it funny.

He is going to become Corporal Punishment:cool:

That is really a great idea! I have snickered about this since I read it.

[Rahul]

Witness the Punisher in his new form!
http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

Wha...I mean, its not like the Punisher would do, even if he was a fan of Cap...but hey, lets wait and see? On teh other hand:

REIGN OF THE CAPTAIN AMERICANS!

Punisher- Eradicator
Patriot- Superboy
Steel-?
US Agent-Cyborg?

[chrismileslord]

Witness the Punisher in his new form!
http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

Wha...I mean, its not like the Punisher would do, even if he was a fan of Cap...but hey, lets wait and see? On teh other hand:

REIGN OF THE CAPTAIN AMERICANS!

Punisher- Eradicator
Patriot- Superboy
Steel-?
US Agent-Cyborg?

What the hell?

[Jmacq1]

Why are these pictures not showing up at all?

[XPac]

REIGN OF THE CAPTAIN AMERICANS!

Punisher- Eradicator
Patriot- Superboy
Steel-?
US Agent-Cyborg?

Winter Soldier has a metal arm... maybe that helps qualify him as a Steel or a Cyborg.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

Witness the Punisher in his new form!
http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

Wha...I mean, its not like the Punisher would do, even if he was a fan of Cap...but hey, lets wait and see? On teh other hand:

REIGN OF THE CAPTAIN AMERICANS!

Punisher- Eradicator
Patriot- Superboy
Steel-?
US Agent-Cyborg?

Excuse me while I get a new pair of pants. This is just too gloriusly awesome. GO FRANK!! :D

[Buster-X]

[QUOTE=Rahul;4522592]Witness the Punisher in his new form!
[spoil]http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

This is BEYOND SWEET. FINALLY A MODERN AGE CAP.

[hitokiri_]

that costume is just plain hideous. two very different ideals incorporated into one costume. ugh.

[andy khouri]

Marvel comics published on their official site today an image of the Punisher in a very Cap-like costume, addressing certain post-"Civil War" suspicions about the mantle of Captain America.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9962

[drwho]

I sure hope not. I cant see Frank being effective lugging that suit around.It looks like it weighs a lot.

[gunz]

The regin of the captain americas has begun.......:cool:



Seriously, I like the costume and I like the fact that it ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE, why frank would take it up. His deep respect for the man makes beleive that frank actually might want to keep the name of captain america going. However, just because it makes sense, dosen't make it right. What I mean by "right" is captain america was the symbol for true heroism, frank obviously not that. So I think there are gonna be a lot of pissed off people at frank for walking around calling himself captain america, so i think it could lead to other story possibilities, as well as frank killing villans (which is sorrta his m.o). So all I can say is good call buy marvel

P.S When the actually bring steve back, i don't think HE'LL take it to kindly that castle was f'n around in his mask

[Post-It]

Please god no. This is a horrible idea. Punisher is a fun character, but there is no way Castle should be the next Cap. Castle is a murderer who gets his killing high from killing bad guys, he is not a hero. What's next Castle on the Avengers?

I hope this is just some marketing ploy to get people to buy War Journal.

[Another Aaron]

I kind of like the idea of Castle trying to change himself, to be better than he actually is.........and failing and pissing a lot of people off. A kind of "path to redemption" story where Castle fails, making things even worse, leaving room for Bucky to take up the mantle next.

[Mysterio]

I think it's a pretty sweet idea, actually. First, you have a guy raised in the 20s and submersed in the "Buy War Bonds" culture. Steve Rogers was the epitome of the flag, mom and apple pie. A simpler time of American history. Times get tougher, darker in history. You have a guy in Castle brought up during Vietnam. More cynical, more violent. The "new" face of American policy, if you will. I think this could play out very interestingly.

The new costume is kinda cool. But what's with the buccaneer boots? Those should be buried with Steve Rogers.

[Hellstormer]

I dig it, Frank IMHO would make a good Cap. someone that has gone so far off the deep end and now he wants to come back. The costume I like however it needs to be slimmed down a little, but I'm glad he doesn't have a shield.

[Tobias March]

I think it's a pretty sweet idea, actually. First, you have a guy raised in the 20s and submersed in the "Buy War Bonds" culture. Steve Rogers was the epitome of the flag, mom and apple pie. A simpler time of American history. Times get tougher, darker in history. You have a guy in Castle brought up during Vietnam. More cynical, more violent. The "new" face of American policy, if you will. I think this could play out very interestingly.

The new costume is kinda cool. But what's with the buccaneer boots? Those should be buried with Steve Rogers.

Crap. It's Watchmen's Comedian.

[Pro]

Looks interesting, I kinda liked the comment made in Civil War comparing Captain America and Punisher:"Same man, different war", to which Steve reacted:"No, Frank Castle is a psycho".

Getting beaten up by someone whose ideals he went to war for and that man subsequently dying on the steps of a courthouse might have given Frank a new perspective on his mission. It would be very interesting reading about Frank's motivations and what he hopes to achieve.

I agree though, the outfit needs to be slimmed down a bit, although the general looks is pretty interesting.

[Gene M.]

That's...uh...um....yeah. That's something else. I think it's safe to say I'll be dropping War Journal sooner rather than later.

[Jack]

Punisher isn't going to be the new Captain America. He's going to dress up as Captain America for a while. He won't be taking over the Captain America title or anything like that.

I think it's certainly an interesting idea.

[Joe Rice]

I expect to see more of these teasers in the coming weeks.

[The M.E.]

i think the punisher cap's an interesting take. id like to see punisher do his thing for awhile, and then winter solider say "god, i really need to be the new cap instead of this guy". the two battle it out and bucky takes on the role. that costume's okay, but i can't accept the punisher with headgear. i get that its cap mask, but it looks a little silly on punisher :(

[Mysterio]

The costume looks very SHIELD-ish with a splash of Bullseye thrown in, what with the headgear. And let's not forget Cable's pouches of the 90s. But I'm really digging it! I'm excited! Now if the story is crap, I'll be disappointed...

[Big Fresh]

Wow. Just uh... wow.

[rZi]

please tell me this is a joke...that can't be serious

[We R. Venom]

I think Marvel should definately tease a few more characters too. I would like to see Luke Cage as Captain Amercia.

[Spectrum]

God, that looks ridiculous. Winter Soldier needs to seriously kick the crap out of Frank.

[Web_Spinner]

Please god no. This is a horrible idea. Punisher is a fun character, but there is no way Castle should be the next Cap. Castle is a murderer who gets his killing high from killing bad guys, he is not a hero. What's next Castle on the Avengers?

I hope this is just some marketing ploy to get people to buy War Journal.

That's the whole point! That's what makes this an interesting story!

Frank would be the last person Cap would pick to succeed him! That's a GREAT idea. When and if Cap comes back, he'll be pissed! Bucky will be pissed! Hell, everyone will be pissed! That makes a great story! I can't wait to see how it all unfolds!

Frank is thinking he's doing the right thing, and everyone else is like..."That guy dressed like Cap A just blew that guys head off!!! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Awesome!

[Knightmare10880]

That's the whole point! That's what makes this an interesting story!

Frank would be the last person Cap would pick to succeed him! That's a GREAT idea. When and if Cap comes back, he'll be pissed! Bucky will be pissed! Hell, everyone will be pissed! That makes a great story! I can't wait to see how it all unfolds!

Frank is thinking he's doing the right thing, and everyone else is like..."That guy dressed like Cap A just blew that guys head off!!! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Awesome!


Man's got a point there. Frank Castle is the last person that anyone in both the Marvel Universe and the real world would ever pick as Stever Roger's successor, I think that if it is done right this could be one of the most impressive and intriging stories in a long time. Only time will tell.

[Sophisticated_Gamer]

This will be awsome, give some good stries back to Punisher...he can then trully kick ass! And won't be a puppet.

I wonder if this will have any effect on Punisher MAX?

[Lanowar]

It's begun soon we'll see the cyborg captain america, the energy captain america and the younger captain america...

[Capt USA]

I could see frank trying to be cap, but even in Sallys messed up america (I really need to make a rant against england for paul jenkins, I mean seriously after that issue I have now talked to thirty different people and have found one person that has a my space account, and yet to talk to one that could name any contestants for the current season of american idol. I guess England is personified by the IRA, Soccer Hooligans and the royal family is about as far as I can get) Frank doesn't represent Americas ideas or values.

[Crimson]

It'll last an issue or two. I'll stick on the Punisher title to see it, hopefully its good.

[drwho]

Future suspects for anymore Cap Clones that may show

1 Patriot
2 Bucky
3 Rick Jones
4 Josiah X
5 Baron Zemo
6 Sharon Carter

Can anyone think of any robot or cyborg character that would dress up like cap?

[genesis]

He looks like a 90s reject. I mean I could go for the punisher being cap but uh no not like this maybe if they got rid of the huge amounts of ammo on his belt.

[Murrocko]

God, that looks ridiculous. Winter Soldier needs to seriously kick the crap out of Frank.

What he said.

[Lurch]

I hope that's a fake because it looks really retarded. It doesn't quite look like a work by Olivetti to me, but who knows?

[The Punished]

I have loved the black on the Punisher and I have loved the black of the old Captain uniform. But I don't know about this. I like the skull in the star behind him but the grey topped pirate boots and the grey at the knees on the uniform leave little to enjoy about this. I may be wrong but then again...

[InsaneGame]

Witness the Punisher in his new form!
http://marvel.com/i/content/st/889new_storyimage3793928_full.jpg

Wha...I mean, its not like the Punisher would do, even if he was a fan of Cap...but hey, lets wait and see? On teh other hand:

REIGN OF THE CAPTAIN AMERICANS!

Punisher- Eradicator
Patriot- Superboy
Steel-?
US Agent-Cyborg?
IT'S CORPRAL PUNISHMENT!

[david r]

Frank Castle is a serial killer. Even if he respects Captain America, I doubt he would ever wear any costume. All Frank cares about is killing criminals and gangstas. Prowling the streets of NY in a Captain America costume would never work out.

[The Punished]

My question is where did Frank get the cowl made and pick up those Pirate boots from. I always thought the minimalism of the Punisher uniform said everything but the red striping.

At least he didn't put the wings over the ears.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=previews/marvelcomics/punisherwarjournal/07/punishercap_full.jpg

[XPac]

He looks like a 90s reject. I mean I could go for the punisher being cap but uh no not like this maybe if they got rid of the huge amounts of ammo on his belt.

Yup, that's one of the first things I noticed. He's got Liefeld guns.

Though I suppose it's a challegne to NOT cross Cap and PUnisher without the end result looking very 90's. It's what you get when you cross big guns and spandex.

[InsaneGame]

My question is where did Frank get the cowl made and pick up those Pirate boots from. I always thought the minimalism of the Punisher uniform said everything but the red striping.

At least he didn't put the wings over the ears.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=previews/marvelcomics/punisherwarjournal/07/punishercap_full.jpg

He probably got it from the same guy who made Speedball his new costume...or wait did he kill him? I got to go read front lines again...

[JoeMD]

That's the whole point! That's what makes this an interesting story!

Frank would be the last person Cap would pick to succeed him! That's a GREAT idea. When and if Cap comes back, he'll be pissed! Bucky will be pissed! Hell, everyone will be pissed! That makes a great story! I can't wait to see how it all unfolds!

Frank is thinking he's doing the right thing, and everyone else is like..."That guy dressed like Cap A just blew that guys head off!!! WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!"

Awesome!

Totaly agree. This is a very cool idea and I can't wait to see how it comes off. I'm reading War Journal and enjoying it. I can't wait for this to start!

[bd2999]

Can we let Stephen Colbert be the new Cap? I think it would work out for the best.

[david r]

The House of Bad Ideas rolls on...

[CaptainAwesome]

I think the costume looks silly. This is exactly the kind of thing that Punisher was trying to escape from when Ennis took over way way back when. He looks silly. I like the idea of Punisher being Cap, but the new look is just dumb. I'm not going to drop the book based on a teaser, because I still trust Fraction as a writer, but I would like to see another costume.

[StoneGold]

My first reaction is he should look a little more like Cap. I'd have to be blind and radar-senseless to confuse that costume for Cap's.

My second thought is, within the PWJ book, this could be fun. Fraction's Castle is a bit more unbalanced than Ennis' portrayal. I like to look at it as how Ennis' Punisher would react if he was constantly surrounded by men in tights. It's going to alter the psychosis somewhat. As long as it doesn't spill into Brubaker's book. Although I could see Brubaker's book spilling into PWJ.

[Thorlief]

I wonder if this will have any effect on Punisher MAX?

god, i so hope not. I-so-hope-not

ridiculous...looks like that Cap ripoff by Awesome Comics written by Loeb

[MichaelMogg]

Can we let Stephen Colbert be the new Cap? I think it would work out for the best.

That was funny funny stuff. (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9964) I'm guessing he wouldn't last too long though. :D Who knows, in our information age, where the word is as powerful as the gun, this just might work! :p

[Titanium]

Here's a thought.

Sure it looks like a combo of The Punisher and Captain America.

But who says it's Frank Castle?

[wingsofdamnation]

as cool as it would be to see one of my fav characters taking law enforcement and the american way to a whole new level i really wouldnt see the sence of portraying the american dream through mass murders

[joe bloke]

Do we REALLY care? So, was this the point of Civil War, then? What started out as an exciting, and, yes, even thought-provoking slap in the face turns out to be nothing more than an excuse to kick off yet another load of lame tie-ins and cash-ins and crossovers, the Who Is Captain America? event. Now, I'm not naive enough to think for one moment that there wouldn't be knock-ons and knock-offs, but this sucks the biggest time. Expect to see in the coming weeks/ months Marvel trotting one tired Captain America stand-in after another Captain America stand-in. Great idea, guys. Turn him into a wuss at the end of Civil War, shoot him, completely destroy absolutely any credibility he had what-so-ever as a character, and bring him back again with much trumpet fare and flag waving in the Return of Captain America event. Crap, crap, and crap. Knightfall, anyone? With the exception of the New Avengers - and I'm only buying that at the moment because I like the art - and, possibly, Moon Knight ( although, if he goes all Cap on me, he can bog off, too ), I am SO done with Marvel. Laters.

[InsaneGame]

Come on Mass murder? Has Frank killed anyone who hasnt desreved it?

[Karl H]

That's...uh...um....yeah. That's something else. I think it's safe to say I'll be dropping War Journal sooner rather than later.

seconded... it's been teetering on the edge of my pull/drop list for a while.

[agirlyman]

Marvel comics published on their official site today an image of the Punisher in a very Cap-like costume, addressing certain post-"Civil War" suspicions about the mantle of Captain America.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9962

Craptain America?

No thanks :evilangry

[Joe-Dono]

Future suspects for anymore Cap Clones that may show

1 Patriot
2 Bucky
3 Rick Jones
4 Josiah X
5 Baron Zemo
6 Sharon Carter

Can anyone think of any robot or cyborg character that would dress up like cap?

Doom-Bot FTW

[SleepWalker]

It looks bad... real bad.

I think the story could be interesting, but the costume? That's gotta go... unless Liefeld's drawin' it, then it's acceptable.

[Hellstormer]

So Frank is the harsh Cap -Eradicator
Patriot is the young cap- Supoerboy
Winter Soldier has that robot arm?- Cybrog/Evil
Someone puts on the old godawful Cap armor- Steel

[Hellstormer]

It looks bad... real bad.

I think the story could be interesting, but the costume? That's gotta go... unless Liefeld's drawin' it, then it's acceptable.
NOTHING by Liefield is acceptable.

I like the outfit but get rid of the goggles and the ammo clips please!!!

And maybe those red seams.

[DDM]

The House of Bad Ideas rolls on...

The cockroaches, termites, & vermin are multiplying in the rotted, neglected House that Jack & Stan built. Is the House of Ideas foundation even stable anymore with all the rotted, eaten termite-infested wood?

[ivesaidway2much]

Future suspects for anymore Cap Clones that may show

1 Patriot
2 Bucky
3 Rick Jones
4 Josiah X
5 Baron Zemo
6 Sharon Carter

Can anyone think of any robot or cyborg character that would dress up like cap?With his robot arm, Bucky already qualifies as a cyborg.

[Zengei]

Only Stephen Colbert has the red, white, and blue balls it takes to carry the mantle.

[isaaklown]

I think that it is really an interesting story idea. The point somebody made earlier about Frank being more of an America today is very valid and I think should be a major part in the story.

The only thing that I'm not sure I could be happy with is the way I feel they will take the story. Remember the Blade CW tie-in? If Blade registers and works for SHIELD they'll let him kill vampires and help him find some too. What if they do basically the same thing with Punisher? "Hey Frank here's the deal, we need a new Captain America and we want you to be him. You have to register and work for SHIELD, but we'll cover up any deaths you cause. We need another poster boy besides Iron Man for the Registration posters."

[Thorlief]

if mr Castiglione gets recluted as Cap then it'll screw up big time what he is in the MAX serie. Frank stated very clearly how much he hates the US government and he will never be the cure for the problems USA caused to themselves (read: Iraq, Al Quaeda, war of terror etc.) telling Micro and everyone to **** off. That'd be kind of weird...and bad if he becomes the new Cap

[drwho]

Punisher War Journal is independent from Max. The Max title isnt in continuity so they can still do whatever they want.

[Arsh]

Over at the Newsarama boards, everyone seems to have had a stroke...

The only titles I read are 'Punisher MAX' and 'Punisher War Journal', so I don't know much of this 'Reign of the Supermen' thing.

But in all likelihood (this may have been said before), this is just a temporary thing, probably restricted to just WJ 6 & 7 (maybe a few more), when Castle takes on Hatemongerer and his Nazis in the desert. Hatemongerer even says that he wants Castle to die in the desert playing dress-up in the solicits.

So anyone panicking, screaming, crying, weeping, etc over this... just stay calm. I trust Fraction not to screw this up, and he'll prolly have a good reason for doing what he's doing.

At least whatever happens in WJ will have no effect on MAX.

[Post-It]

I think that it is really an interesting story idea. The point somebody made earlier about Frank being more of an America today is very valid and I think should be a major part in the story.

The only thing that I'm not sure I could be happy with is the way I feel they will take the story. Remember the Blade CW tie-in? If Blade registers and works for SHIELD they'll let him kill vampires and help him find some too. What if they do basically the same thing with Punisher? "Hey Frank here's the deal, we need a new Captain America and we want you to be him. You have to register and work for SHIELD, but we'll cover up any deaths you cause. We need another poster boy besides Iron Man for the Registration posters."

Your idea makes more sense than Marvel allowing Castle to decide to be Cap on his own.( thats if he does decides, i havent read War Journal).

I just feel Castle as Cap would be predictable. You know he is gonna lose control and kill a bunch of people who are trying to surrender or are unarmed.

[Magneto Rocks]

Mark Millar commented on Millarworld. He says this is among the biggest things he pushed for at the civil war meeting.

[EC1231]

This will be like that JP Valley (right?) that replaced Batman after Bane broke his back. Punisher will try to fill the role, but he'll be too extreme and end up dirtying the identity until someone comes and forcefully removes it from him.

[DDM]

Mark Millar commented on Millarworld. He says this is among the biggest things he pushed for at the civil war meeting.

Mark Miller does not "get" Captain America then. The Punisher as Captain America smells like a rotten shock value trick than anything of substance.

[Post-It]

Mark Miller does not "get" Captain America then. The Punisher as Captain America smells like a rotten shock value trick than anything of substance.


He doesn't. In his head Cap 616 should be like Cap from the Ultimate verse. In both universes, its obvious Millar hates the US government and takes his hatred out by ruining the name and legacy of the avatar of America. ( i stole that from Moon Knight).

[Hellstormer]

This will be like that JP Valley (right?) that replaced Batman after Bane broke his back. Punisher will try to fill the role, but he'll be too extreme and end up dirtying the identity until someone comes and forcefully removes it from him.
That was a great moment and that's what I want to happen again, Cap needs to come back, find Punisher dressing like him and KILLING baddies, and then lay the smackdown on the poser. That moment is all I want.

[Tobias March]

Mark Miller does not "get" Captain America then. The Punisher as Captain America smells like a rotten shock value trick than anything of substance.

I don't think this idea is about 'getting', Cap. More it's a comment on Punisher and his desire to have a reason for what he does - because at the end of the day, everyone thinks he's just a psycho with guns.

[DDM]

That was a great moment and that's what I want to happen again, Cap needs to come back, find Punisher dressing like him and KILLING baddies, and then lay the smackdown on the poser. That moment is all I want.

How can Steve Rogers right the Captain Punisher's wrongs given the real Captain America is dead?

[captain_unimpressive]

How can Steve Rogers right the Captain Punisher's wrongs given the real Captain America is dead?

Well, we've been down this road before, with many different characters. Cap's even died once before. That time, however, he returned in about eleven pages on a rocket-powered motorcycle to rampage through the Hydra-occupied cemetery, doling out the pain to every agent which so much as looked like the one that killed him.

And they all look the same.

[Post-It]

I don't think this idea is about 'getting', Cap. More it's a comment on Punisher and his desire to have a reason for what he does - because at the end of the day, everyone thinks he's just a psycho with guns.

But wasn't that already flushed out? I forget which writer's run it was, but i recall that it was analyzed that Castle just enjoys killing. That's why he went to 'Nam and continues to kill even when he could easily just cripple a bad guy. To me Castle sees himself as almost the Judge Dredd of Marvel, his decision/opinion is above all else. I am wrong?

[All The Best Names Were Taken]

This will be like that JP Valley (right?) that replaced Batman after Bane broke his back. Punisher will try to fill the role, but he'll be too extreme and end up dirtying the identity until someone comes and forcefully removes it from him.

Wouldn't it be more interesting if Castle actually did keep his hands clean in the role of Captain America, and was forcefully removed by someone pre-empting him going off the deep end, even if he showed no signs he would. This would probably screw him up to the point of no return.

[Citizen V]

I dont think there is any real new Captain.Im waiting for the real one to return.

[Tobias March]

But wasn't that already flushed out? I forget which writer's run it was, but i recall that it was analyzed that Castle just enjoys killing. That's why he went to 'Nam and continues to kill even when he could easily just cripple a bad guy. To me Castle sees himself as almost the Judge Dredd of Marvel, his decision/opinion is above all else. I am wrong?

Sure - no reason why Fraction can't expand upon the comparison between Frank and Cap in Civil War. It's a story idea - that's it.

[ultramandingo]

if it happens , i say the new frank/cap goes with a "dont tread on me " flag costume , a necklace of human ears and a flame thrower ......and a abraham lincon beard and hat , just cuz

[wingsofdamnation]

Come on Mass murder? Has Frank killed anyone who hasnt desreved it?
i was using it as a figure of speech. but still i get your point

[Frank]

I think Marvel should definately tease a few more characters too. I would like to see Luke Cage as Captain Amercia.

I agree. I hope to see as much new Caps as possible. If not by name, just wearing the colours, taking the torch to continue the good fight.

[Frank]

But wasn't that already flushed out? I forget which writer's run it was, but i recall that it was analyzed that Castle just enjoys killing. That's why he went to 'Nam and continues to kill even when he could easily just cripple a bad guy. To me Castle sees himself as almost the Judge Dredd of Marvel, his decision/opinion is above all else. I am wrong?

Garth Ennis is not the last word on Punisher. He writes him like a psycho but being a vigilante makes you unbalanced, not necesseraly Travis Brickle. FRank Castle is more like Dirty Harry in my opinion.

[Vaal]

Well... they reached rock bottom and deployed the drill. Thats... just... horrifying.

Seriously, Steve is going to fight his way back from the after life to beat Frank mercilessly. Not for being a psychopath who's crapping on everything he stood for. But for doing it in that costume.

[mattx110]

Garth Ennis is not the lost word on Punisher. He writes him like a psycho but being a vigilante makes you unbalanced, not necesseraly Travis Brickle. FRank Castle is more like Dirty Harry in my opinion.

part of dirty harry's character is that he never killed unless he had to.
magnum force he was taking down vigilante cops.
he goes against the grain because he still believes in being a straight, do your job kinda cop that gets into trouble because disaster always happens around him.

punisher is way more "bad guys die" gung ho about killing. it's not a last resort for him, it's a means to an end.

[Frank]

part of dirty harry's character is that he never killed unless he had to.
magnum force he was taking down vigilante cops.
he goes against the grain because he still believes in being a straight, do your job kinda cop that gets into trouble because disaster always happens around him.

punisher is way more "bad guys die" gung ho about killing. it's not a last resort for him, it's a means to an end.

He's like Dirty Harry if Harry had lost his wife and kids to mobsters. And a little drunk.

[oneasian]

I agree. I hope to see as much new Caps as possible. If not by name, just wearing the colours, taking the torch to continue the good fight.

i'd only want to see that to know that they all fail in some fashion as there can only be one true Captain America

[Frank]

i'd only want to see that to know that they all fail in some fashion as there can only be one true Captain America

Or maybe all these star-sprangled characters could mount a underground gerillla war that would culmulate in topling Tony Stark's regime. "WE ARE ALL CAPTAIN AMERICA!". :D

[SensorBoy]

"Mastercard, I'm bored. Shooting pedophiles in the face will entertain me."

Oh yes, I can see that line coming out of the mouth of the new ersatzCap.

Frank will put on the Capisher costume, but only to let his demons out to play.

[eggie]

Maybe I enjoyed the 90's too much but I totally dig the new costume. He's still got the Skull and now he's added some stars and a Cap-esque mask. I really doubt that Frank is the new Capt. America but I'm looking forward to him running around in that costume thinking that he's the new cap.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

Wouldn't be surprized if this storyline was called
CAPital PUNISHMENT.

[Kaos]

Frank Castle as Captain America...hmmm..interesting

[CMBMOOL]

Man, that costume on Frank Castle reminds me of DC's JSA member Doctor Midnight with guns. :p

[Post-It]

Garth Ennis is not the last word on Punisher. He writes him like a psycho but being a vigilante makes you unbalanced, not necesseraly Travis Brickle. FRank Castle is more like Dirty Harry in my opinion.


I thought it was Ennis. Thanks.

The prob with him being like Dirty Harry is that Punisher doesnt just kill people, he has been known to torture them to get what he wants.

While new story lines are always a great thing, I am just iffy about Castle becoming the Captain. Who knows, maybe Im wrong and this becomes a great arc.

[wingsofdamnation]

Well... they reached rock bottom and deployed the drill. Thats... just... horrifying.

Seriously, Steve is going to fight his way back from the after life to beat Frank mercilessly. Not for being a psychopath who's crapping on everything he stood for. But for doing it in that costume.
man i love the costume. i dont just love it...i want it...i need it

[StoneGold]

Come on Mass murder? Has Frank killed anyone who hasnt desreved it?

Arguable. Is dealing a capital offence?

[Jaykob]

Arguable. Is dealing a capital offence?


maybe not in our judicial system, but, depending on what drugs you are selling, you are surely assisting in ruining lives, neighborhoods, and families. So, arguably, it could be. Not saying I agree with Frank (though I do think he's badass) but hasn't the entire point of the Punisher always been taking the law into his own hands because our judicial system is too flawed to get the job done (in Franks opinion).

[Capt USA]

punisher has killed people that didn't deserve to die, street level thugs who's only real crime was hooking up with a bad group of people, he just killed a bunch of costume baddies in a bar/funeral or and I'm not sure that all of them were bad guys (can't tell if prowler was there or not, can't find the issue right now, but thought there was some low level villains who hadn't done major crimes)

the reason that the judicial system has sentencing for crimes is that jail is designed to allow redemption.

[StoneGold]

maybe not in our judicial system, but, depending on what drugs you are selling, you are surely assisting in ruining lives, neighborhoods, and families. So, arguably, it could be. Not saying I agree with Frank (though I do think he's badass) but hasn't the entire point of the Punisher always been taking the law into his own hands because our judicial system is too flawed to get the job done (in Franks opinion).

Yeah, but Frank's also a serial killer, so his opinion isn't what we'd generally call in line with mainstream civilization. Generally, we don't give the death penalty for helping someone to ruin their life. Otherwise we'd have to kill every CEO of McDonalds.

[Mrcommish]

This would be a major statment by marvel. really cant wait to see how this pans out.

[Schutzy86]

Hey Frank doesn't slack on white collar crime, he killed the marvel version of Enron for crying out loud, and who doesn't think they deserved it?

As far as the Cap angle, I have this idea I would love to see even though It won't happen. Frank trying to live up the ideals of the suit goes out to do good and shows restraint which is shown in the captain america comic, but at the same time stuggles with who he really his, The punisher which plays out in War Journals, and you do a whole arc like this until Frank does something really good and finally finds there's such thing has a redemable soul in life, or decides that the American Dream is flawed because of bad people who don't play by the rules and they need to be brought to justice, they need punishment.

[hyzmarca]

That is pretty much what happens in What If … The Punisher Became Captain America. He vacillates between upholding the ideals represented by one costume and extracting bloody vengeance in another. Eventually, with a little help from Steve (who is still alive in this continuity but has lost both his arms due to injuries sustained in combat), he chooses to be Captain America and only Captain America, giving up the skull, the guns, and the executions, presumably forever.

However, without Steve to help him though this, he is just as likely to corrupt the mantle as it is to live up to it.

[Jaykob]

Yeah, but Frank's also a serial killer, so his opinion isn't what we'd generally call in line with mainstream civilization. Generally, we don't give the death penalty for helping someone to ruin their life. Otherwise we'd have to kill every CEO of McDonalds.

It's not that I don't agree with you. I'm going to play devil's advocate, though. Frank Castle doesn't believe in the judicial system and he really has no reason to. Kingpin is still ordering hits from jail, so, obviously, there's some problems there that are probably never going to be resolved. Is Frank Castle whacking a few crime lords and petty thugs really a bad thing? I would say society has a lot to benefit from his vigilantism. He strikes fear into people and probably deters a lot more people from getting into organized crime than the cops. After all, the cops are only going to arrest you. Frank is going to end your life.

As far as I know, Franks has never killed anyone for stealing a candy bar. All these people have at least been involved with theft or assault on a pretty large scale. Then there are people who aren't very good at being criminals, but glorify criminal acts by wearing costumes and taking up aliases. While not inherently dangerous, by doing so, they accept the role of the villain and all the consequences that come along with it, including run ins with someone like the Punisher. I feel no sympathy for some D-List villain who gets whacked. They chose the novelty of the life of crime, and the Punisher makes them pay. Maybe that will make the next joke with a set of pajamas think twice before trying to rob a bank.

[Schutzy86]

I think Marvel really has a story line they could do great things with especially since the punisher/vietnam window is coming a close, we're talking about a pieice of america that shaped alot of what opinion is today. The whole character of Frank Castle is all centered of still being in vietnam in some aspects, he went there a young soldier like so many others and came back a changed man with a different outlook in life and he just couldn't take the corrupt system and the failure to do anything about his family pushed him over the edge and brought out the war in Frank.

The punisher in many ways is the captain america of vietnam. He's not so much confused of right and wrong but his line, a generation's line of right and wrong became muddled in those jungle, and now he's just fighting in the same jungles of a different place. Granted I know vietnam vets arn't all homicidal and what not, but you read the punisher series and you can see how much vietnam has shaped the character of Frank Castle, he's fighting for his right and wrong that was lost at war. He's fighting for a justice and an innocent america that was left out there somewhere in Vietnam's jungle.

[Thursaiz]

I did a quick search, and couldn't find a thread on this. If there is one, please move appropriately :)

This is on Marvel.com...

http://www.thevine.ca/forums/PunisherWarJournal.jpg

[MAK15]

I think the costume is Hate-Monger's doing.
maybe he wants to roleplay with costumes or somethin, I dunno.
For the greatness that is Frank's outfit, I hope he doesnt go by Cap A.

[Schutzy86]

Oh come on, give it a chance before we start talking about dropping pwj all at once.

[wingsofdamnation]

was gonna ask on the civil war forem but that is no more. anyway i was flipping hrough the Confession the other day and saw capt america in jail. i thought he was dead. did he fake his death or something?

[MichaelMogg]

was gonna ask on the civil war forem but that is no more. anyway i was flipping hrough the Confession the other day and saw capt america in jail. i thought he was dead. did he fake his death or something?

No, the first half of the book takes place now, and the last half takes place before his death.

[MAK15]

Oh come on, give it a chance before we start talking about dropping pwj all at once.

I aint gonna drop War Journal any time soon, I just dont think of Frank as a Captain America.