World War Hulk: Whose side are YOU on?

[Kevinroc]

Oh certainly. But this isn't "would he", the question is "could he". And the answer is unequivocally yes, and if Hulk came back he'd just do it time and time again.

"Could he" is irrelevant when he won't do it. Of course, the fact that Thor wouldn't do what The Illuminati did should say something about the situation.

Okay, so Thor having the moral high ground over everyone isn't exactly a shock.

[ivesaidway2much]

In pure strength, sure, maybe in durability. But in speed? In intellect? In real POWER (which of course is far more than just strength). I've said it before, I'll say it again, Hulk could do literally NOTHING if Thor just opened a portal into deep, deserted space and left him there. What could is "strength" then?Isn't Professor Hulk already way more intelligent than Thor? And beisdes the Hulk could always just one punch the planet Earth or show up with a gamma bomb and be the only one to walk away. Of course he wouldn't do that(too much pride) just like Thor wouldn't teleport Hulk into deep space. But Thor doesn't have the market cornered when it comes to real power. All the Hulk needs is a little imagination.

[ultimate hulk]

hulk hulk he's our man...if he can't beat ironman then no one can...hulk hulk he's our man...if he can't defeat everyone then no one can...gooooo hulku yeeaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh...sorry about that...i'm just a guy what the heck do i know about cheerleading...i do not care about moral high ground...the hulk shouldn't care about moral high ground either...if i wanted moral high ground...i wouldn't read comics to find it...i would look at the world around me...

[Hrungr]

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/795/795410/world-war-hulk-20070608055334404.jpg

http://comics.ign.com/articles/795/795410p1.html

Saw this over at the CBs. Another great interview with Greg Pak with about half a dozen new preview panels. It looks like the Sentry is getting into this a lot earlier than I expected. But poor, poor BB...

[Kefky]

Heh, looks like BB got it pretty bad after all. You all happy now? Huh? HUH?!? ;)

[Sentou Ryoku]

Ack I totally missed it, what exactly did HUlk do to Black Bolt? Are there scans? Descriptions?

[Hrungr]

Ack I totally missed it, what exactly did HUlk do to Black Bolt? Are there scans? Descriptions?
We still don't know yet, all we have is Spidey's ominous teaser above.

[beetheb]

Well, this doesn't come as a huge shock, we knew from WWH: Prologue that Hulk and Hiroim's plan was to kick BB's ass first and parade him in front of the others....looks like the plan was a success.

But yes, that is completely awesome, can't wait to see the actual battle.

and BTW, I guarantee you the end to Spidey's sentence was "...Sentry!"

[Kefky]

Man, I hope they don't half-ass that Sentry fight. He's pretty much the only person on Earth with any chance of stopping the Hulk, so their smackdown NEEDS to be huge. Let's see both of these characters push themselves.

[Hrungr]

Man, I hope they don't half-ass that Sentry fight. He's pretty much the only person on Earth with any chance of stopping the Hulk, so their smackdown NEEDS to be huge. Let's see both of these characters push themselves.
From what we've heard in previous teasers, the real Sentry-Hulk fight isn't going to happen until later in the series. My guess is that something keeps these two from actually going at it in #1 (though what it could be I have no idea). They've also been pimping the Sentry as "the big" challenge for him so I expect it'll be the big, widescreen fight of WWH (unless Thor miraculously shows up in this event).

[ultimate hulk]

so i guess that's it for me...so now i guess he's the third...that explains everything...black bolt is still alive...how disappointing...i won't even waste my time buying world war hulk...

[CMBMOOL]

Heh, looks like BB got it pretty bad after all. You all happy now? Huh? HUH?!? ;)

Well, I'm for one am happy. :D

[Magneto Rocks]

and BTW, I guarantee you the end to Spidey's sentence was "...Sentry!"

Well, er... duh. I don't mean to sound condescending but he said "Golden Guardian of Good." If someone said "THe Ever lovin' blue-eyed..." I don't think we'd need to be told it was Benjamin J Grimm ;)

Didn't expect to see Sentry this early in the series. We are set for one smashfest to end all smashfests when they face off. I don't think they will THIS issue but it's nice to see him set up already. I'd bet his mental health issues etc will keep him from playing a role until maybe 4.

Oh, anyone else pick up on him almost confirming the idea of Hiroim vs Strange? We know 3 and 4 focus on Strange as a foe and now he says Hiroim has a massive moment in 3? Hmmm....

[Karthak]

Check the preview for WWH: X-men to see what Hulk did to Black Bolt.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well WWH X-Men doesn't tell us too much either.

[Quinch]

Heh, looks like BB got it pretty bad after all. You all happy now? Huh? HUH?!? ;)

Eats popcorn.
Yep :)

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm gonna stand by my view that the entire crossover would be so much better and so much funnier if Black Bolt just blew Hulk into the Sun and killed him in issue 1.

Okay so maybe not but it would certainly have surprise on it's side! Anyone see THAT coming? ;)

[Quinch]

Chews popcorn. " Tnnn whmm dod whhmm now?"

[Xanrn]

"a Word Please"...

Hhaha Sweet.

Told you She-Hulk would get repowered because for good behaviour.

[dabig2]

Heh, great interview with some nice art. Sentry and Hulk won't be throwing down too greatly here in the start, so I wonder what happens.

[beetheb]

Well, er... duh. I don't mean to sound condescending but he said "Golden Guardian of Good." If someone said "THe Ever lovin' blue-eyed..." I don't think we'd need to be told it was Benjamin J Grimm ;)Yeah, but someone had to say it, it was just dangling there in the air, and I hate danglers. ;)

Didn't expect to see Sentry this early in the series. We are set for one smashfest to end all smashfests when they face off. I don't think they will THIS issue but it's nice to see him set up already. I'd bet his mental health issues etc will keep him from playing a role until maybe 4.Or maybe Hulk will make relatively short work of Sentry during #1 and he'll need some time to recuperate...

Oh, anyone else pick up on him almost confirming the idea of Hiroim vs Strange? We know 3 and 4 focus on Strange as a foe and now he says Hiroim has a massive moment in 3? Hmmm....Yup, I've been saying this for quite some time. Hiroim possibly having mystical powers is a huge Wildcard in this whole thing that very few people have given thought to...

Obviously, Strange is the sorcerer supreme, but the combination of Hiroim using Mystics + Hulk's strength could create a huge headache for him.

[Magneto Rocks]

Or maybe Hulk will make relatively short work of Sentry during #1 and he'll need some time to recuperate...

Anyone, from Thor to Hulk, making short work of Sentry without exploiting his mental blocks could teach Wolverine and Batman a thing or two about jobbing.

[Mike Smash!]

Anyone, from Thor to Hulk, making short work of Sentry without exploiting his mental blocks could teach Wolverine and Batman a thing or two about jobbing.But Hulk has one huge advantage over Sentry...

His name is in the title.

[Kevinroc]

http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/June07/previews/june_13th.html

WWH #1. Incredible Hulk #107. Along with other, non-WWH related comics.

[Camron Amaya]

Can't wait for this. This already feels like it'll be better then Civil War. Much better.

[Magneto Rocks]

Wow.

VERY surprised to see antis and pros working together so easily. Still, nice to see EVERYONE unite against Hulk and Iron Man written properly in character.

GO TONY!

[Camron Amaya]

*salivates at the mouth*

[Quinch]

and BTW, I guarantee you the end to Spidey's sentence was "...Sentry!"
Well, er... duh. I don't mean to sound condescending but he said "Golden Guardian of Good." If someone said "THe Ever lovin' blue-eyed..." I don't think we'd need to be told it was Benjamin J Grimm ;)


http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/June07/previews/WWHULK001_int0029.jpg
http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/June07/previews/WWHULK001_int0030.jpg

Are there forfeits in place on CBR?

[Hrungr]

I loved the scene where Spidey thinks the Sentry's coming down to save them, but it's Iron Man who shows up.

"Aw nuts."

IM: "That's not exactly the effect I was going for."

:D

[Magneto Rocks]

Read the original.

He clearly said "I guarantee the END OF THIS SENTENCE is Sentry"

And it obviously was GOING to be. So there's no need for a forfeit.

[Quinch]

Uhh..
What?

[Quinch]

Wonder how hard Spidey's sense was hitting him.

[1WEBHEAD]

Very cool preveiw.

I could understand why the Pro and the Antis would unite together against the Hulk but I can't see how they could do it so easily.

Oh well, doesn't matter. HULK SMASH!!! :evilsmile

[Exo]

I could understand why the Pro and the Antis would unite together against the Hulk but I can't see how they could do it so easily.

I'm puzzled by this as well. Still, it's nice to see these guys together again (even for a brief moment).

[Hrungr]

I could understand why the Pro and the Antis would unite together against the Hulk but I can't see how they could do it so easily.
I thought they were acting a little too chummy as well, but it'll probably be put in better context when we see the rest of the issue.

[mosdef]

I was thinking the same thing. Their relationship with each other should be tense; not so easy.

[Joe Zool]

Uh, can somebody explain to me why Spidey called Tony "Boss"? :confused:

It seems like this preview is somewhat in the middle section, so I'm hoping that the first few pages or thereon will explain it.

[Quinch]

Uh, can somebody explain to me why Spidey called Tony "Boss"? :confused:

It seems like this preview is somewhat in the middle section, so I'm hoping that the first few pages or thereon will explain it.

Prolly because Sheild are evacuating the Island and Tony is in charge.

Mix with generous dollops of sweet sweet irony.

[Magneto Rocks]

Uh, can somebody explain to me why Spidey called Tony "Boss"? :confused:.

It's sarcastic because he called him that when they were on the same side.

Oh and incidentally, you know what they say about why they're on the same side-

"The Enemy of My Enemy..."

[Xanrn]

Yes notice that it was "Boss" not Boss.

Hmm why would the Pro's and Anti's join forces really fast, well because the Hulk just threatened to smash the entire world and their Heroes.

Couldn't be that could it?

[TheAmazingSpider-Man]

Yes notice that it was "Boss" not Boss.

Hmm why would the Pro's and Anti's join forces really fast, well because the Hulk just threatened to smash the entire world and their Heroes.

Couldn't be that could it?


Yeah spidey was being sarcastic calling him boss. But isnt Hulk only after the 4 from the illuminati, and not the entire world and its heroes. I also hated how chummy they were being, she hulk taking orders and standing beside those who took her powers doesnt make sense to me

[Joe Zool]

Prolly because Sheild are evacuating the Island and Tony is in charge.

Mix with generous dollops of sweet sweet irony.

It's sarcastic because he called him that when they were on the same side.

Oh and incidentally, you know what they say about why they're on the same side-

"The Enemy of My Enemy..."

Yes notice that it was "Boss" not Boss.

Hmm why would the Pro's and Anti's join forces really fast, well because the Hulk just threatened to smash the entire world and their Heroes.

Couldn't be that could it?

Yeah spidey was being sarcastic calling him boss.


Good points, all. :D


/am dense ;)

[Harding Prime]

I have been getting more intrigued....

Visuals of a possible Iron Man Ass whooping does look nice! :D

[Harding Prime]

It's sarcastic because he called him that when they were on the same side.

Oh and incidentally, you know what they say about why they're on the same side-

"The Enemy of My Enemy..."

But that's the thing...there should always be something bigger then having the Mighty Avengers trying to catch the New Avengers. It's almost pointless. They know they are good guys, so work on what is really important, like Ultron or Hulk. Tony making them priority over a lot of things is just him being a douche.

[TheAmazingSpider-Man]

I have been getting more intrigued....

Visuals of a possible Iron Man Ass whooping does look nice! :D

INDEED....

[CaptainCanada]

But isnt Hulk only after the 4 from the illuminati, and not the entire world and its heroes.
In his big speech, he threatens to kill everyone on the planet if Tony Stark, Reed Richards, and Stephen Strange don't appear exactly where he tells them to 24 hours later.

[beetheb]

Tony: "Remember, the madder he gets the stronger he gets. So don't come after him till I'm done with him or he's done with me..."

Awesome.

Paks gonna knock this one outta the park! And I think we can all agree that though Tony may be an @$$hole, he's certainly not a coward...

[Harding Prime]

Oh Lord, when will Tony Stark receive the comuppance he so richly deserves? How long will his arrogance and manipulations continue without any consequences? F@$k! Lord when? How long will characters whose lives he now has total control of continue to cowtow to him? F#$k! How long will this continue?

Is that based on Ben Affleck in JayAndSilentBobStrikeBack?

And yes that is a matter of the forum because Tony should be getting what is coming to him, especially with the cover for IM #19.

[Harding Prime]

Tony: "Remember, the madder he gets the stronger he gets. So don't come after him till I'm done with him or he's done with me..."

Awesome.

Paks gonna knock this one outta the park! And I think we can all agree that though Tony may be an @$$hole, he's certainly not a coward...

Alright, alright...Agreed...

[Kefky]

But that's the thing...there should always be something bigger then having the Mighty Avengers trying to catch the New Avengers. It's almost pointless. They know they are good guys, so work on what is really important, like Ultron or Hulk. Tony making them priority over a lot of things is just him being a douche.

He says that there's a very specific reason why he's going after the NA. It's very, VERY obviously implied that the reason he's doing it is so the people behind the SHIELD corruption don't get to him first. This is made even MORE obvious by the fact that Bendis has said in interviews that both of these teams have the same goals.

So are you just gonna keep ignoring all that so you can say that he's only doing it 'cause he's ninny holding a grudge?

[jeffmace]

I've said it before and I'm saying it again...

I'm rootin' for the Hulk, and I hope he rips the Pro-Reg guys apart.

VIVA LA HULK!!!

[thronzeblast]

Well tony is a realist he knows that hulk is a way way bigger threat than trying to capture spiderman,I bet you if he stopped hulk then and there he would have tried to arest spidey.

[TheAmazingSpider-Man]

Is that based on Ben Affleck in JayAndSilentBobStrikeBack?

And yes that is a matter of the forum because Tony should be getting what is coming to him, especially with the cover for IM #19.


Yeah it is observant one, I bought the dvd last month and still cant get that little rant out of my head. Its not that I want Stark beaten i want him broken, I want him to lose his position in S.H.E.I.L.D. I want him to realize how much suffering he's caused others and maybe turn to the bottle again. I want all those who basically believe he can do no wrong and follow his every whim to abandon him. Then I want him dead, but thats probably not gonna happen

[lonewolf23k]

Yeah it is observant one, I bought the dvd last month and still cant get that little rant out of my head. Its not that I want Stark beaten i want him broken, I want him to lose his position in S.H.E.I.L.D. I want him to realize how much suffering he's caused others and maybe turn to the bottle again. I want all those who basically believe he can do no wrong and follow his every whim to abandon him. Then I want him dead, but thats probably not gonna happen

Ok, I can agree with Tony getting his comeuppance and a most well-deserved beating, but dead? No, no, no...

...That would be going easy on Tony. He needs to live. He needs to get everything he worked to get taken away from him, and he has to work his way back up from the gutter, working hard to earn his redemption along the way.

[Dusty.]

Just ordered my Planet Hulk HC today. I wonder if this will be a collection of the mini series and issues 106-108 when it's collected. I look forward to this story very much, and can't wait to find out what the 3rd part of the trilogy will be.

Those previews look great. This just may be the best hulk story of all time coming up. Hard to beat Future Imperfect, though.

[Harding Prime]

He says that there's a very specific reason why he's going after the NA. It's very, VERY obviously implied that the reason he's doing it is so the people behind the SHIELD corruption don't get to him first. This is made even MORE obvious by the fact that Bendis has said in interviews that both of these teams have the same goals.

So are you just gonna keep ignoring all that so you can say that he's only doing it 'cause he's ninny holding a grudge?

But he is...

And did you mean "people behind the SHIELD corruption don't get to him or them first? Bit confused.

[Harding Prime]

Yeah it is observant one, I bought the dvd last month and still cant get that little rant out of my head. Its not that I want Stark beaten i want him broken, I want him to lose his position in S.H.E.I.L.D. I want him to realize how much suffering he's caused others and maybe turn to the bottle again. I want all those who basically believe he can do no wrong and follow his every whim to abandon him. Then I want him dead, but thats probably not gonna happen

Well he has lost three of the most closest friends he has to death in the past couple of months....its a start.

[jigrig]

I want Him to return to the bottle & start frequenting The Pub I hang out at so I can keep Him feeling low & get Him to buy My drinks by every so often offering some false verbal hope for redemption, "dont let it bug Ya Tony, tomorrow mornin You just march right in to Shield Headquarters & show them Your not some 2nd rate tin Tyrant!"
Yeah, thats the ticket!

[Hrungr]

Tony: "Remember, the madder he gets the stronger he gets. So don't come after him till I'm done with him or he's done with me..."

Cover to WWH #2...

http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/794/794854/world-war-hulk-event-guide-20070607015804855.jpg

:D

Awesome.

Paks gonna knock this one outta the park! And I think we can all agree that though Tony may be an @$$hole, he's certainly not a coward...

Tony certainly gets props for going after him alone (even if he's borrowing Optimus Prime's body to do it ;) ) but one wonders how much of this could have been avoided if they had just given up and tried talking to him.

[Brian M.]

I wanna know how Spider-Man gets involved.

[drupgyu]

I haven't been this excited for a marvel crossover since Fall of the Mutants. (man, that really dated me.)

Anyway, I think the pros and antis unifying are probably the first seeds of eradicating the registration altogether. Could you imagine the world wanting your help with the global threat of the Hulk AND wanting to lock you up for not registering? I would make a conditional work agreement if that was the case and say "Uh, no registration please!" but I suppose heroes would help either way. I see amnesty in the New Avengers future if WWH #2 leads to some serious hospitalization.

Sentry is probably not going to be much of a factor. It feels a bit like Marvel made a 'Superman' character and are kinda backing away from it because, like DC has found time after time, what do you do with someone that powerful? Having them show up negates the need for any other superheroes. How many times does Superman just not show up so Batman or whomever else can actually have an adventure? I think Sentry may try to talk to the Hulk towards the end but Sentry doesn't really seem part of this story or won't be until much later.

Also, what happened to all these hints that Tony was not Tony and that someone else mind manipulated all of the events of Civil War? Or was that just rumor and wishful thinking? Marvel needs a Mr. Mind to retcon b.s. like changing Reed and Tony into jerks.

[Yarr]

I wanna know how Spider-Man gets involved.



Well, if a giant green hulking monster was going to rip your friends apart (And you happen to be one of the greatest Heroes of all time) wouldnt you try to do something to help them?

[Xanrn]

Dude don't try to use Logic, their logic chips are faulty.

As for why She-Hulk is with siding with the people just depowered her.

Hmm maybe its because they obiviously just REPOWERED her.

I don't no why people are having such a problem with the Heroes teaming up to fight the Hulk.

Just because they don't like 0.0000000001% of the Worlds Population, doesn't mean their going to let the other 99.999999999% get smashed.

Are you people honestly that petty, that you wouldn't side with a group of people if you didn't like 1 or 2 of them to defeat a threat to you and everyone you care about?

[Kevinroc]

Dude don't try to use Logic, their logic chips are faulty.

As for why She-Hulk is with siding with the people just depowered her.

Hmm maybe its because they obiviously just REPOWERED her.

I don't no why people are having such a problem with the Heroes teaming up to fight the Hulk.

Just because they don't like 0.0000000001% of the Worlds Population, doesn't mean their going to let the other 99.999999999% get smashed.

Are you people honestly that petty, that you wouldn't side with a group of people if you didn't like 1 or 2 of them to defeat a threat to you and everyone you care about?

So you're saying Jen doesn't care about her cousin?

[Mike Smash!]

Dude don't try to use Logic, their logic chips are faulty.

As for why She-Hulk is with siding with the people just depowered her.

Hmm maybe its because they obiviously just REPOWERED her.

I don't no why people are having such a problem with the Heroes teaming up to fight the Hulk.

Just because they don't like 0.0000000001% of the Worlds Population, doesn't mean their going to let the other 99.999999999% get smashed.

Are you people honestly that petty, that you wouldn't side with a group of people if you didn't like 1 or 2 of them to defeat a threat to you and everyone you care about?Xanrn, turn down the snark. Don't bait people.

[Magneto Rocks]

I do love this- "I can't believe how much Tony has gained while everyone else has suffered..."

"I mean I'd DEFINITELY think being Director of an organization I never really wanted to be in charge of for the sole purpose of protecting others besides myself would be worth destroying my position in the community, having three of my best friends brutally murdered, having most of my remaining friends turn on me and having to confront the deepest ethical issues of my lifetime!"

Tony has ALREADY suffered FAR more than just about anyone save Cap since the start of the war. (Exluding Hulk, obviously) Heck, Spidey has an aunt nearly dead, Tony has THREE, count em, THREE best friends dead in mere months. One of whom he was forced to kill himself, two of whom died through his OWN actions.

And you're going to argue what? That Luke Freaking Cage has been through worse?

Tony certainly gets props for going after him alone (even if he's borrowing Optimus Prime's body to do it ) but one wonders how much of this could have been avoided if they had just given up and tried talking to him.

I find it extremely amusing that you think there'd be any talking from Hulk besides tearing their heads off and chewing their bones.

Seriously though, I hope this preview is indicitive of all WWH. Because in this, Hulk is very much the ANTAGONIST as opposed to protagonist. If you read these pages without an Internet, it wouldn't read like "Follow Hulk as he guts people", it would read like "Follow this desperate band of heroes as they fight a foe more powerful than any they have faced!" Which is as it should be. That's just from these few pages of course, HOPEFULLY it continues but probably not.

Funny how as the evnt draws closer and closer, more and more seems to be going AGAINST the Hulk morally.

[Silver Knight]

And yes that is a matter of the forum because Tony should be getting what is coming to him, especially with the cover for IM #19.

Um in my opionon no. Hell no. yea he desevered a beat down, and he got several, a good one from cap[ that I think is still on his mind, but just a beat down just isnt enough.

I want him beaten, bloody, broken(perferabily quadapriligic so nothing goes on down their for the playboy) dirt poor, dragged through the streets like a common thug, chained to the middle of times square, and whipped at least 5 times for ever live he's destroyed (figurtivly and litterally) or civil rights he's trampled on. NOW THAT WILL BE JUSTICE:evilsmile :D

my personal opionon, your welcome to disagree:)

[CMBMOOL]

Man, the previews look GREAT. :D

However something tells me that the She-Hulk within the previews could be an LMD created by SHIELD in order to trick the Hulk into an early surrender. :(

[Magneto Rocks]

Um in my opionon no. Hell no. yea he desevered a beat down, and he got several, a good one from cap[ that I think is still on his mind, but just a beat down just isnt enough.

I want him beaten, bloody, broken(perferabily quadapriligic so nothing goes on down their for the playboy) dirt poor, dragged through the streets like a common thug, chained to the middle of times square, and whipped at least 5 times for ever live he's destroyed (figurtivly and litterally) or civil rights he's trampled on. NOW THAT WILL BE JUSTICE:evilsmile :D

my personal opionon, your welcome to disagree:)

Exactly what lives has Iron Man destroyed? Taskmaster's? Lady Deathstrikes?

Well he destroyed most of his OWN, it's true...

And yeah he got a beatdown from Cap. Right before Cap said that his side had lost the argument.

[CMBMOOL]

Dude don't try to use Logic, their logic chips are faulty.

As for why She-Hulk is with siding with the people just depowered her.

Hmm maybe its because they obiviously just REPOWERED her.

I don't no why people are having such a problem with the Heroes teaming up to fight the Hulk.

Just because they don't like 0.0000000001% of the Worlds Population, doesn't mean their going to let the other 99.999999999% get smashed.

Are you people honestly that petty, that you wouldn't side with a group of people if you didn't like 1 or 2 of them to defeat a threat to you and everyone you care about?

Like I said it could be a SHIELD's LMD created to confuse the Hulk and tricking him into an early surrender. :(

[Hrungr]

I find it extremely amusing that you think there'd be any talking from Hulk besides tearing their heads off and chewing their bones.
Show me any time the Hulk has just "tore off people's heads and chewed on their bones" and I'll give you that. But even if worse came to worse and he did kill them, that still limits the war to just 4 people and keeps it from spilling over onto all the allies & military resources they are throwing at the Hulk to try and clean a mess they created. The Illuminti really should just buck up an say, "This is our responsiblity, let's keep everyone else out of the crossfire."

Seriously though, I hope this preview is indicitive of all WWH. Because in this, Hulk is very much the ANTAGONIST as opposed to protagonist. If you read these pages without an Internet, it wouldn't read like "Follow Hulk as he guts people", it would read like "Follow this desperate band of heroes as they fight a foe more powerful than any they have faced!" Which is as it should be. That's just from these few pages of course, HOPEFULLY it continues but probably not.

Funny how as the evnt draws closer and closer, more and more seems to be going AGAINST the Hulk morally.
Morally, there are a lot of grey to go around, and the Hulk is certainly no exception. All sides should or at least could have handled this better. The whole thing can be summed up as the Hulk being a King of one world issuing demands upon another, which if not met, will result in a kind of "War of the Worlds". They all see the Illumanti as those who've already fired the first shot.

[Kevinroc]

Exactly what lives has Iron Man destroyed? Taskmaster's? Lady Deathstrikes?

Well he destroyed most of his OWN, it's true...

And yeah he got a beatdown from Cap. Right before Cap said that his side had lost the argument.

Hulk's.

Not just talking about Planet Hulk. We're going back to the Avengers foundation with this. Tony even admitted that it was one of the biggest regrets of his life.

[Magneto Rocks]

Show me any time the Hulk has just "tore off people's heads and chewed on their bones" and I'll give you that. But even if worse came to worse and he did kill them, that still limits the war to just 4 people and keeps it from spilling over onto all the allies & military resources they are throwing at the Hulk to try and clean a mess they created. The Illuminti really should just buck up an say, "This is our responsiblity, let's keep everyone else out of the crossfire."

Firstly, show me any time Hulk has been this angry.
Secondly, your logic also works for saying Mr Fantastic should surrender to Doom and Spider-Man should surrender to the Green Goblin.


Morally, there are a lot of grey to go around, and the Hulk is certainly no exception. All sides should or at least could have handled this better. The whole thing can be summed up as the Hulk being a King of one world issuing demands upon another, which if not met, will result in a kind of "War of the Worlds". They all see the Illumanti as those who've already fired the first shot.

No, it CERTAINLY cannot. Trying to pass off Hulk's declaration as a normal interplanetary conflict lends him a colossal legitimacy he has no right to.

Hulk's.

Not just talking about Planet Hulk. We're going back to the Avengers foundation with this. Tony even admitted that it was one of the biggest regrets of his life.

I think it's more than a little ridiculous to claim Tony ruined Hulk's life. He ruined his own the moment he heroically leapt into the path of those gamma rays.

But to say Avengers 2 is the cause of all that's gone wrong in Hulk's life is just mind boggling.

[Kevinroc]

Firstly, show me any time Hulk has been this angry.
Secondly, your logic also works for saying Mr Fantastic should surrender to Doom and Spider-Man should surrender to the Green Goblin.

Spidey and Reed didn't outright screw over Doom or The Golbin the way The Illuminati screwed over Hulk. The next time The Illuminati ask Doom to save the world and then screw him over, they might have the right to be as mad as Hulk.

No, it CERTAINLY cannot. Trying to pass off Hulk's declaration as a normal interplanetary conflict lends him a colossal legitimacy he has no right to.

Says the unelected representatives of Earth that threatened The Skrulls.

I think it's more than a little ridiculous to claim Tony ruined Hulk's life. He ruined his own the moment he heroically leapt into the path of those gamma rays.

But to say Avengers 2 is the cause of all that's gone wrong in Hulk's life is just mind boggling.

Well, Dr. Strange is responsible for Hulk going on his mindless rampage that led to Strange banishing him in Hulk #300.

:D

[Magneto Rocks]

Spidey and Reed didn't outright screw over Doom or The Golbin the way The Illuminati screwed over Hulk. The next time The Illuminati ask Doom to save the world and then screw him over, they might have the right to be as mad as Hulk.

From your perspective. An onlooker could see it either way. The Illuminati would say they didn't screw him, Hulk would say they did. Spidey and Reed would say they didn't, Doom and Norman would say they did. Situations are the same.

After all, Doom will tell you Reed scarred him and prevents an ascension which would benefit everyone, Norman will tell you Spidey killed his son.

Says the unelected representatives of Earth that threatened The Skrulls.

I'm sorry, where did they threaten to wipe out the Skrull race?

[Harding Prime]

Um in my opionon no. Hell no. yea he desevered a beat down, and he got several, a good one from cap[ that I think is still on his mind, but just a beat down just isnt enough.

I want him beaten, bloody, broken(perferabily quadapriligic so nothing goes on down their for the playboy) dirt poor, dragged through the streets like a common thug, chained to the middle of times square, and whipped at least 5 times for ever live he's destroyed (figurtivly and litterally) or civil rights he's trampled on. NOW THAT WILL BE JUSTICE:evilsmile :D

my personal opionon, your welcome to disagree:)

I don't see how we disagree...but okay.

The cover to the next IM is Iron Man's head being knocked off by the Hulk.

[Harding Prime]

Spidey and Reed didn't outright screw over Doom or The Golbin the way The Illuminati screwed over Hulk. The next time The Illuminati ask Doom to save the world and then screw him over, they might have the right to be as mad as Hulk.
:D

Screwy Hewy...Iron Man and Co. don't feel they screwed the Hulk though, they feel like they did what is best for the Planet. Just like they did for the SHRA...

Tony is just wrong alot...:D

[Hrungr]

Firstly, show me any time Hulk has been this angry.
Fair enough, but then why is he this mad - at them.

Secondly, your logic also works for saying Mr Fantastic should surrender to Doom and Spider-Man should surrender to the Green Goblin.
It is not the same. The Illuminati's actions created this mess, it was they who tricked him into that shuttle, used them to do their dirty work and save the world before paying him back by shooting him off into space. The shuttle explosion is very likely their doing (or at least one of them) to keep him from returning. The Warbound themselves believed they have been wronged and are every bit as determined to get them as the Hulk is.

It's their mess, and they have the opportunity to clean it up without putting everyone else into the line of fire.

No, it CERTAINLY cannot. Trying to pass off Hulk's declaration as a normal interplanetary conflict lends him a colossal legitimacy he has no right to.
They all feel that the humans responsible need to pay for this, not just the Hulk. It was actually the Warbound who picked the Hulk up (who only wanted to die at the time) and put his feet on this path. And whether you like it or not, the Hulk is the King of an entire planet whom the Warbound probably see as being the victim of a failed assassination attempt (and it could very well have been if the Hulk was in the shuttle at the time). But one that took over a million lives in the attempt. How does this not lend some legitimacy to their actions?

Again, I'm saying things could be handled better by all sides, but they could also have been handled a lot worse. The Warbound could have fired a big salvo from their ship and just leveled NYC, taking the Illuminati with them. No warnings, no 24hrs to evacuate the citizens, no demands.

[Harding Prime]

BTW - I'm glad we just changed the conversation we all were having in the "Choose your side" thread....to this thread.

[Kevinroc]

Screwy Hewy...Iron Man and Co. don't feel they screwed the Hulk though, they feel like they did what is best for the Planet. Just like they did for the SHRA...

Tony is just wrong alot...:D

Remember that Hulk has already organized a rebel faction, overthrew a corrupt government and took over a planet.

I can't see why Iron Man fans are so nervous... :evilsmile

[Harding Prime]

Remember that Hulk has already organized a rebel faction, overthrew a corrupt government and took over a planet.

I can't see why Iron Man fans are so nervous... :evilsmile

I despise IM, doesn't stop me from picking up his title right now because it is good, but despise none the less. I'm not huge on Hulk either, his character has gotten really old to me. Even with all his "changes" in his surroundings and supporting characters, as the strongest thing going, he just doesn't carry as well as Superman, or most high profile characters.

And lets be serious, Hulk is not taking over any government in this world, excpet maybe Genosha, lol. He doesn't have the fire power to take out all of the Super-Heroes, and that is a fact.;)

[Kevinroc]

I despise IM, doesn't stop me from picking up his title right now because it is good, but despise none the less. I'm not huge on Hulk either, his character has gotten really old to me. Even with all his "changes" in his surroundings and supporting characters, as the strongest thing going, he just doesn't carry as well as Superman, or most high profile characters.

And lets be serious, Hulk is not taking over any government in this world, excpet maybe Genosha, lol. He doesn't have the fire power to take out all of the Super-Heroes, and that is a fact.;)

Hulk does fine. It's just the moral complexities of the character tend to be overlooked. People just call him a "monster" as if that is the end of it. When Loki, just before the Avengers founding, states that "there is no evil in his heart" ("Gravage" Hulk, the current incarnation) and we see that Hulk has a purer soul than The Silver Surfer and Dr. Strange ("Savage" Hulk), people just don't know what to make of that.

Hulk's a much more dynamic character than many of the other major high profile characters because he can be the hero and the villain (and sometimes both at the same time) in a story.

[Harding Prime]

Yea, thanks for the reminder...Hulk is Annoyingly confusing too. I mean, does Bruce Banner have ANYTHING to do with the character anymore. It's ridiculous.

[wulfstone]

Gotta say that Stark is a stand up guy "Okay Hulk one on one you vs me... and the Air Force!" cue evil laugh

[Kevinroc]

Yea, thanks for the reminder...Hulk is Annoyingly confusing too. I mean, does Bruce Banner have ANYTHING to do with the character anymore. It's ridiculous.

Stark was wrong. What's so confusing about that? :)

[Harding Prime]

Stark was wrong. What's so confusing about that? :)

I know that, and I don't see how that pertains to my last post. I guess Hulk is just as confusing to everyone else.

[beetheb]

Gotta say that Stark is a stand up guy "Okay Hulk one on one you vs me... and the Air Force!" cue evil laugh"...and the nanobots, and the New Hulkbuster Armor, and these other 6 class 100 heroes waiting to jump you if you beat me."

[Harding Prime]

He is kinda threatening all of humanity though...


He really does need to be stopped, whether you agree with him or not. If it was your Universe, you would want him stopped before he took you out.

[Kevinroc]

He is kinda threatening all of humanity though...


He really does need to be stopped, whether you agree with him or not. If it was your Universe, you would want him stopped before he took you out.

Actually, I'd understand the attitude people seem to have that these powerful creatures should wipe each other out. Let's face it, The Illuminati did the wrong thing and I sure as hell wouldn't want them protecting me. They definitely shouldn't be leading the cause of the super human.

[Harding Prime]

Still avoiding how confusing the whole Hulk character is though I see Kevinroc.

[Kevinroc]

Still avoiding how confusing the whole Hulk character is though I see Kevinroc.

What do you mean by "confusing"?

[Harding Prime]

What do you mean by "confusing"?

His entire back story has just become a mess to the point that I don't even know what incarnation of the Hulk we are dealing with anymore. There has only been 7 or so.

[Pendaran]

They all feel that the humans responsible need to pay for this, not just the Hulk. It was actually the Warbound who picked the Hulk up (who only wanted to die at the time) and put his feet on this path. And whether you like it or not, the Hulk is the King of an entire planet whom the Warbound probably see as being the victim of a failed assassination attempt (and it could very well have been if the Hulk was in the shuttle at the time). But one that took over a million lives in the attempt. How does this not lend some legitimacy to their actions?


That their actions involve giving thousands of poor and disadvantaged who have nothing to do with anything in this a choice of "give up your lives or lose them", as far as either taking their homes and places of employ for a warzone, or if the people stay, being perfectly fine with risking their deaths, takes away the legitimacy for me. They're after four, after the trip to the moon, three guys, who from this preview seem to be demonstrating that they can in fact be drawn out from where they are to go fight the Hulk.

The thing at that about saying the Illuminati started it and so forth, neatly sidesteps the issue of, okay, should the Hulk be allowed to just roam around and whenever the urge strikes him, go on a rampage in a populated area?

[Dorsai]

I don't really see this World War Hulk as a story on morality. Viewing it on moral grounds casts the Hulk in a bad light. I think most will agree that when we see people threatening and extorting the weak, most of us will take a dim view.

However...I really see World War Hulk as a revenge story. The Hulk doesn't seem to care if he is actually right. Being right has nothing to do with it really. I think it is all about revenge. And I think that is going to be so much more interesting.

[Hrungr]

That their actions involve giving thousands of poor and disadvantaged who have nothing to do with anything in this a choice of "give up your lives or lose them", as far as either taking their homes and places of employ for a warzone, or if the people stay, being perfectly fine with risking their deaths, takes away the legitimacy for me. They're after four, after the trip to the moon, three guys, who from this preview seem to be demonstrating that they can in fact be drawn out from where they are to go fight the Hulk.
I'm not saying the Hulk is looking like some sort of saint here - he's not. But he is giving the citizens of NY a chance, which by the Warbound's measure is more than the million+ people of Crown City got, not to mention his wife and unborn child. They're clearly targeting the four they hold responsible and didn't just start carpet bombing the city the moment they arrived. I would say the Hulk has legitimate grevience here, but everyone looks bad in some way, no question.

The thing at that about saying the Illuminati started it and so forth, neatly sidesteps the issue of, okay, should the Hulk be allowed to just roam around and whenever the urge strikes him, go on a rampage in a populated area?
One thing that's often overlooked here is that the Hulk hasn't been "Savage" for about 20 years now (barring the Byrne blip) and during that time has been in one intelligent incarnation after another and far more reasonable overall (for the Hulk, that is ;) ). But the government and their various black-ops agencies still treated him like he as a monster and funded anyone with personal vendettas against him (Ross, 2 Talbots, Ryker, St. Lawrence, etc.) with military resources or to use him in their neferious scheme du jour.

The reason why the Illuminati give for sending him away was for what happened in Las Vegas. But what happened there was through no real fault of his own (he was helping Shield and got hit in the face with a gamma bomb he was trying to disarm) and a similar situation could have happened to anyone given the right circumstances - Thor in "Warrior's Madness", Namor on his usual surface-world tirade...

What they should have done was found a way to bring the Hulk back on-side. Either with a new team of Defenders or simply provide Banner with the funding to do something useful in the world.

[Pendaran]

One thing that's often overlooked here is that the Hulk hasn't been "Savage" for about 20 years now (barring the Byrne blip) and during that time has been in one intelligent incarnation after another and far more reasonable overall (for the Hulk, that is ). But the government and their various black-ops agencies still treated him like he as a monster and funded anyone with personal vendettas against him (Ross, 2 Talbots, Ryker, St. Lawrence, etc.) with military resources or to use him in their neferious scheme du jour.


Guy attacked LA during one of his non savage periods, it's not really reliable to hope that the dominant personality of the week will not like rampages. Even what has been arguably the Hulk's most stable personality snapped the one time and went on a rampage that got a guy killed.

The reason why the Illuminati give for sending him away was for what happened in Las Vegas. But what happened there was through no real fault of his own (he was helping Shield and got hit in the face with a gamma bomb he was trying to disarm) and a similar situation could have happened to anyone given the right circumstances - Thor in "Warrior's Madness", Namor on his usual surface-world tirade...


They actually talked about the Hulk in terms of his overall history in their big private debate on it, which, there is a general history thereof. Some of the Hulk's rampages at that couldn't have happened to anyone but the Hulk given the circumstances.

What they should have done was found a way to bring the Hulk back on-side.

I dunno, one of the personal pronoun using versions of the Hulk once tried to cack half the people in that room over a newspaper clipping he didn't like, it doesn't seem like that can really be done and hope to stick. The Hulk's just not stable, the main arguement against doing anything about it seems to be what Reed initially tried to argue, that nothing can be done about it, and it should just be thought about like when a hurricaine occurs, and accept that hurricaines cause losses and damage. Which, I'll grant as coldly logical arguements go, is certainly an arguement, if excessively bleak.

[Hrungr]

Guy attacked LA during one of his non savage periods, it's not really reliable to hope that the dominant personality of the week will not like rampages. Even what has been arguably the Hulk's most stable personality snapped the one time and went on a rampage that got a guy killed.
Which times were these again? Were there any extenuating circumstances?

But if you play the "Maybe he'll... What if..." game you can point your finger at dozens of heroes that could threaten life, property or even the world under the right circumstances. If you'll remember in CW, heroes fighting heroes caused the deaths of something like 47 civilians and 7 or 8 supers and all for what? The right to save them? Were any of them held accountable? No.

And with the "Anti-Reg" forces still out there and new anti-establishment groups like the New Warriors rising up, tragedies like this are just waiting to happen again. And these are the people who are supposed to know better?

What if Wolverine went on another killing spree?
What if Iron Man and/or his armors got taken over the upteenth time and threatened the world? Oh wait...
What if the Silver Surfer started working for Galactus again?
What if Thor went insane or went "wanna-be dictator" again?
What if the ticking time-bomb Sentry unleashed the Void again?

I dunno, one of the personal pronoun using versions of the Hulk once tried to cack half the people in that room over a newspaper clipping he didn't like, it doesn't seem like that can really be done and hope to stick. The Hulk's just not stable, the main arguement against doing anything about it seems to be what Reed initially tried to argue, that nothing can be done about it, and it should just be thought about like when a hurricaine occurs, and accept that hurricaines cause losses and damage. Which, I'll grant as coldly logical arguements go, is certainly an arguement, if excessively bleak.
The Hulk has a lot of anger problems, there is no arguing that. But something Greg Pak once mentioned regarding the Brood I think applies well to the Hulk. "Treat me like a monster and I will be your monster." Amadeus once pointed out that yes, he may hate us humans, but he saves us anyway and goes on to explain that even as the Savage Hulk, if he rampages there's usually (but admittadly not always) a good reason behind it. But what is great with a group like the Defenders around him is that he can do a lot of good and are powerful enough to weather the "rough patches".

[dabig2]

That their actions involve giving thousands of poor and disadvantaged who have nothing to do with anything in this a choice of "give up your lives or lose them", as far as either taking their homes and places of employ for a warzone, or if the people stay, being perfectly fine with risking their deaths, takes away the legitimacy for me. They're after four, after the trip to the moon, three guys, who from this preview seem to be demonstrating that they can in fact be drawn out from where they are to go fight the Hulk.

This isn't any different from any war throughout human history. Anyways, the size of the battle is the reason for the evacuation. Hulk knows that they aren't going to give themselves up and that the others, including his friends the U.S. army, won't give them up, so a large-scale fight will go down. # of initial perpetrators doesn't take away legitimacy that this will truly be an interplanetary war.

The thing at that about saying the Illuminati started it and so forth, neatly sidesteps the issue of, okay, should the Hulk be allowed to just roam around and whenever the urge strikes him, go on a rampage in a populated area?

As of the current Hulk, yeah. He's more or less kept it in line for years. Punishing him ultimately for Vegas (this was the final pegging of the stake) wasn't just.

[Pendaran]

Which times were these again? Were there any extenuating circumstances?

He traveled to New York in what was basically his almost original incarnation to hunt down and kill the Avengers and Rick Jones for letting Cap join the team, after reading about such in the newspaper. There were no extenuating circumstances. Was also notable for him threatening to destroy New York if his demands were not met, and trying to drown the thing.

He traveled to LA to rumble a bunch of it (throwing tram cars full of people around) after taking credit for various horrible global crimes, and telling the army that came after him as a result that if they came after him one more time, he'd start picking out US cities, travelling to them, and attacking them. Army attacked him one more time. Which given that the Hulk had presented himself as a supervillain, giving them an ultimatum like that is more than mildly ricidulous. Anyway, he resultingly went to LA to attack it. The main thing that can be said for the Hulk in this case is that at least his initial action, the taking credit for said crimes, was a decent thing to do to prevent a bunch of fights that would have happened from said crimes. This was as the "Grayvage" Hulk.

The Professor Hulk went to go kill the Leader after finding out where he was, then after Rick begged him to instead defend everyone there from Hydra because Marlo was mid being resurrected, the Hulk did that, then changed his mind and went to attack the Leader anyway, then snapped and went crazy as per Delphi's prophecy that the Hulk would one day snap and go crazy, laughing like a madman and talking about how everyone must die and so forth (Rick being there for that before he got away with Marlo), then caused an explosion that killed the guy bringing Marlo back from the dead, who was one of the Leader's innocent dupes, the Hulk acknowledging that the part of the mess that included getting a guy killed was his fault.

But if you play the "Maybe he'll... What if..." game you can point your finger at dozens of heroes that could threaten life, property or even the world under the right circumstances.

It's not playing a what if game, it's noting that he's done this kind of thing before, of his own violition, and there's really nothing whatsoever that would preclude him doing this kind of thing again, other than hoping really hard that he doesn't. Leaving him alone doesn't work as he's shown that all of a newspaper is enough to make him come to you.

The other examples you give.. Wolverine has nowhere near the power to destroy that the Hulk does, Tony getting taken over by something is not doing something of his own violition, the Surfer in order to be a herald that would lead Galactus to inhabited planets required Galactus to warp his soul on a fundamental level, simply as a herald (which he is now) he otherwise avoids doing so, and whereas it's at least vaguely possible to do something about the Hulk, as explored in the Sentry's own minis, even Doctor Strange drawing on dark magics can't keep the Sentry down, and the Sentry can himself teleport across dimensions. The Sentry is actually a case where the people of Marvel Earth have as their only option hoping really, really hard that everything stays stable, because they have no other actual recourse, since even the Sentry both mindwiping himself, and the entire planet's population, normals and supers alike, didn't work.

It means that the arguement basically is that people should simply accept that as he has in the past, even without retcons of other things, the Hulk can and will flip out on his own, of his own choices, attack cities, and they can only put up with it.


Hulk knows that they aren't going to give themselves up and that the others, including his friends the U.S. army, won't give them up, so a large-scale fight will go down. # of initial perpetrators doesn't take away legitimacy that this will truly be an interplanetary war.

It does when he has no particularly valid reason that holds up to pick the fight in New York.

He's more or less kept it in line for years.

He had a rampage as recent as that issue of Spiderman unlimited. His ability to keep himself in line is wildly variable. More to the point, some of his examples of not keeping it in line have been staggering, and it seems pretty out there to just hope that he'll be nice enough not to do it again. Even with the Sentry, they at least basically tried everything they could to, well, get rid of him. The Sentry himself pitching in to the effort.

With someone like the Hulk, it seems to be either try to do something about it, or accept that it's not much of a what if that humanity's going to suffer from his direction at least a few more times.

I can't really fault the Illuminati for ultimately not going with Reed's initial arguement that they should just tell humanity to suck it up and accept that a clinically insane powerhouse will walk the Earth at his whim. No one seems to complain that Strange busted out some of the darker magics he could on the Sentry for similar reasons.

Which is the other thing really, when the Hulk ontop of everything else is indeed insane, it sets him well apart from people that there could be reasonable expectations of.

[beetheb]

Pendaran, for what it's worth, judging by the new previews we've seen, it certainly looks like this Hulk is somewhat the maniac you guys wanted him to be. He certainly doesn't look as though he's playing, judging by Black Bolt and the X-Men pages.
Beast looked genuinely terrified, it was a chilling thing to hear him say "genocide" in connection with the Hulk, because right now, it looks as though he's prepared to do it.

I think the Hulk has a right to be angry, but wow, he really is taking no prisoners. This may be the most brutal Hulk we've seen in the history of the character.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I think this quote from SBC fits the bill for this entire event.

This story is "villain vs villains" unlike Civil War, which was the opposite.

[jackolover]

Morally, there are a lot of grey to go around, and the Hulk is certainly no exception. All sides should or at least could have handled this better. The whole thing can be summed up as the Hulk being a King of one world issuing demands upon another, which if not met, will result in a kind of "War of the Worlds". They all see the Illumanti as those who've already fired the first shot.

Yeah, I don't understand why Hulk isn't shown to ask for the Illuminati, and someone tries to bargain with him. Maybe it will show it in the issue. The Hulk seems like he is a reasonable man. I think what has happened, is the Illuminati have rejected the Hulks offer, so that precipitated the confrontation with Iron Man and the heros. We'll just have to wait and see.

[jackolover]

Let's face it, The Illuminati did the wrong thing .

Okay, discounting the shuttle exlosion killing one million on Planet Hulk...

1. The Illuminat, apparently, were sending Hulk to an uninhabited planet, where he couldn't get hurt and wouldn't hurt anyone.

2. The Illuminati didn't know what happened on Planet Hulk, just that the Hulk didn't make it to where they sent him.

Now, regardless of whether you think the Illuminati were callous in sending an earthling off-world to die in exile, they thought Hulk wanted this, in a subconcious sort of way. But even disregarding that, if the shuttle didn't explode, King Hulk would almost certainly have lived happilly ever after(?).

So, I don't see the Illuminati feeling any culpability in the fate of Planet Hulk.

[jackolover]

I don't really see this World War Hulk as a story on morality. Viewing it on moral grounds casts the Hulk in a bad light. I think most will agree that when we see people threatening and extorting the weak, most of us will take a dim view.

However...I really see World War Hulk as a revenge story. The Hulk doesn't seem to care if he is actually right. Being right has nothing to do with it really. I think it is all about revenge. And I think that is going to be so much more interesting.

I see WWH as a story of discovery, not brutality. Somehow, someway, the story will have to be told of what happened on Planet Hulk and why the warbound are here to wreak havoc.

Nevertheless, after observing the Hulks demonstration of destroying Black Bolt(?), wouldn't you feel the Hulk was just coming to destroy you?

[chrismileslord]

It's not Sentry, it's Iron Man. They were hoping for Sentry for Sentry though. It's lower in the panels.

[patch]

Okay, discounting the shuttle exlosion killing one million on Planet Hulk...

1. The Illuminat, apparently, were sending Hulk to an uninhabited planet, where he couldn't get hurt and wouldn't hurt anyone.

2. The Illuminati didn't know what happened on Planet Hulk, just that the Hulk didn't make it to where they sent him.

Now, regardless of whether you think the Illuminati were callous in sending an earthling off-world to die in exile, they thought Hulk wanted this, in a subconcious sort of way. But even disregarding that, if the shuttle didn't explode, King Hulk would almost certainly have lived happilly ever after(?).

So, I don't see the Illuminati feeling any culpability in the fate of Planet Hulk.


what everyone seems to ignore is that prior to being "tricked" into space by s.h.e.i.l.d and the fake nick fury...banner was living the quiet life in the alaskan woods and in some semblance of control.

illuminatti were doing what was good and easy for them and not banner or the hulk and they should suffer greatly for it

they betrayed banner and sent him accross the stars in a ship not built to contain him and sakaar paid for it in the end .

[ivesaidway2much]

1. The Illuminat, apparently, were sending Hulk to an uninhabited planet, where he couldn't get hurt and wouldn't hurt anyone.I really don't see how the Hulk benefits from what would likely be centuries of solitary confinement before he finally dies. If I were him in that situation, I think I'd prefer a quick death over hundreds of years of complete isolation.


Now, regardless of whether you think the Illuminati were callous in sending an earthling off-world to die in exile, they thought Hulk wanted this, in a subconcious sort of way.But going by the Giant-size Hulk issue that came out during Planet Hulk. Banner points out that regardless of what the Hulk says, based on his actions, it's pretty clear that at least subconciously the Hulk doesn't want to be left alone.

[ultimate hulk]

I really don't see how the Hulk benefits from what would likely be centuries of solitary confinement before he finally dies. If I were him in that situation, I think I'd prefer a quick death over hundreds of years of complete isolation.


But going by the Giant-size Hulk issue that came out during Planet Hulk. Banner points out that regardless of what the Hulk says, based on his actions, it's pretty clear that at least subconciously the Hulk doesn't want to be left alone.

how about forever...since the hulk won't die of old age...being stuck on a planet all alone for eternity...now that sucks...

[Silver Knight]

Exactly what lives has Iron Man destroyed? Taskmaster's? Lady Deathstrikes?

Well he destroyed most of his OWN, it's true...

And yeah he got a beatdown from Cap. Right before Cap said that his side had lost the argument.

Well I dont know the lives of the good decent heros hes had beaten up, mugged and handcuffed just because they held differnt personal belifs, as well as Aunt May, I hold him directly responsible for Spidey's life going to pot, but thats maybe for a different time and place. Not to mention the hundreds perhaps thousands of lives his put at risk for letting loose maniacs like Venom and Norman Osborn out loose. Hell he actually kinda likes Osborn in a twisted sense.

Now please dont bait me into a arguement about Why Cap surrendered because, A. we will possibly never quite know what was going though his head at that moment, B. cause he think he's point was wrong.

[Mike Smash!]

Silver Knight, drop "C" from that list, please. We can discuss this stuff without what should be a civil debate turning into an exchange of WWE promos.

And Cap didn't "lose the argument" of Civil War, Mags. He simply said that they didn't win it. It's apparent post-Civil War that Cap hadn't changed his position on the SHRA, but that he'd realized that his tactics before were counterproductive and he wanted to fight it in the courts. He still thought that Tony was wrong.

Cap admitting this isn't a moral victory for the Pro-Reg forces. It's an admission by Cap that two wrongs don't make a right. That surrender doesn't absolve Tony of his totalitarian actions, a staged terrorist attack on a foreign diplomat, Orwellian surveillance of friends or shady business dealings and war profiteering.

It just means that Captain America saw that he was making things worse and trying to fight Tony's actions in a different way.

But this is a different argument than the Hulk situation. I think before the end of this event that we're going to see the Illuminati bear some responsibility for the destruction of Sakaar, Amadeus Cho will have his rosy shaded view of the Hulk ripped away and the Hulk will end with a stalemate at best, but the actions of the Illuminati will be exposed to the world and the rep of characters like Tony Stark and Reed Richards will be stained.

[CMBMOOL]

But this is a different argument than the Hulk situation. I think before the end of this event that we're going to see the Illuminati bear some responsibility for the destruction of Sakaar, Amadeus Cho will have his rosy shaded view of the Hulk ripped away and the Hulk will end with a stalemate at best, but the actions of the Illuminati will be exposed to the world and the rep of characters like Tony Stark and Reed Richards will be stained.

Agreed but what of the heroes who sided with Tony and Reed during their battle with the Hulk, will they leave them and join the antis or operated on their own within the law ? :(

[Xanrn]

They'll do... Absolutly nothing.

IF they want to work within the Law, they will have to do what their told and if their told to work for Stark or Reed they'll do it.

Also you mean the Anti-Reg Doctor Strange who was in on the Exile?

I bet you once its over, WWH will get less mentions than House of M.

The Iniative, SHRA, Stark's new position none of it is going anywhere till Captain America comes back.

[CMBMOOL]

They'll do... Absolutly nothing.

IF they want to work within the Law, they will have to do what their told and if their told to work for Stark or Reed they'll do it.

Also you mean the Anti-Reg Doctor Strange who was in on the Exile?

I bet you once its over, WWH will get less mentions than House of M.

The Iniative, SHRA, Stark's new position none of it is going anywhere till Captain America comes back.

Man, that hurts. I mean I thought Marvel would have learned it lesson when the House of M is barely mentioned within the current community. :(

[jackolover]

I really don't see how the Hulk benefits from what would likely be centuries of solitary confinement before he finally dies. If I were him in that situation, I think I'd prefer a quick death over hundreds of years of complete isolation.

I, also would not want to be alone for the rest of my life, and how the Illuminati can think that was preferable to any other contingency to rid the world of the Hulk, I don't know. Obviously, egg-heads are a little insensitive.


But going by the Giant-size Hulk issue that came out during Planet Hulk. Banner points out that regardless of what the Hulk says, based on his actions, it's pretty clear that at least subconciously the Hulk doesn't want to be left alone.

In either that issue or IH #100 we see Banner agree with the Illuminati for sending him to this Planet (Although Banner was not to know that Sakaar was the Illuminati's first choice).

[dabig2]

He traveled to New York in what was basically his almost original incarnation to hunt down and kill the Avengers and Rick Jones for letting Cap join the team, after reading about such in the newspaper. There were no extenuating circumstances. Was also notable for him threatening to destroy New York if his demands were not met, and trying to drown the thing.

It’s an old comic. The past is the past. All I really have to say to this event. Anyways, throughout the 2 issues here, he was more interested in getting to Rick and asking him what the hell, instead of focusing on massacring every Avenger.

He traveled to LA to rumble a bunch of it (throwing tram cars full of people around) after taking credit for various horrible global crimes, and telling the army that came after him as a result that if they came after him one more time, he'd start picking out US cities, travelling to them, and attacking them. Army attacked him one more time. Which given that the Hulk had presented himself as a supervillain, giving them an ultimatum like that is more than mildly ricidulous. Anyway, he resultingly went to LA to attack it. The main thing that can be said for the Hulk in this case is that at least his initial action, the taking credit for said crimes, was a decent thing to do to prevent a bunch of fights that would have happened from said crimes. This was as the "Grayvage" Hulk.

This arc was an interesting one. He was separated from Banner due to extenuating circumstances, and he was constantly in pain and dying by the minute, and his presence was causing reality to rip apart. Not normal circumstances here. Anyways, he stepped on a tram car, not threw them for a little nitpick.


It's not playing a what if game, it's noting that he's done this kind of thing before, of his own violition, and there's really nothing whatsoever that would preclude him doing this kind of thing again, other than hoping really hard that he doesn't. Leaving him alone doesn't work as he's shown that all of a newspaper is enough to make him come to you.

My point is he that he's done it very sparingly. You’re only true case where it was truly intentional with no special “comic book” stuff affecting him was when he stomped on the FF and Avengers waaaaaaay back when. And to a far lesser degree in a fit of madness due to his arch-nemesis in the Leader in issue 400. And I’ll throw in the recent #87 where he burnt down the forest when he threw the campfire sticks (the last 2 they surely wouldn't have known about anyways). The Illuminati were, in fact, punishing him entirely for any rampages or sufferings caused during his ol savage days. Days where the status quo had him reacting instead of acting. Point being that he was not the monster that they billed as destroying a city here or there a couple times out of the month just because he could or wanted to. His key rampages, ones where he truly was unstoppable for the most part intent on destruction, and the ones most probable to factor into such a permanent decision, were not his fault. Those are the ones I liken to someone being mind-controlled or whatever else.
Though I’ll admit it was a brilliant plan at first. Have this "out of control monster" destroy an out-of-control death satellite, and then exile said monster in one fell swoop. 2 for 1 deals-gotta love them.



Man, that hurts. I mean I thought Marvel would have learned it lesson when the House of M is barely mentioned within the current community. :(

Well just a couple of years ago, Kang blew up Washington D.C killing millions probably while consequently enslaving the entire earth along with her heroes for a time; yet that’s rarely mentioned upon and still very much in continuity (it’s still continuity right?). Strange ain't it?

Anyways, since Marvel seems to have a bit of hype going around for their ’08 event, a lot of developments and plot advances will probably just have to wait for a little bit more as they build upon whatever they’re about to do.

[jackolover]

The Illuminati were, in fact, punishing him entirely for any rampages or sufferings caused during his ol savage days. Days where the status quo had him reacting instead of acting. Point being that he was not the monster that they billed as destroying a city here or there a couple times out of the month just because he could or wanted to. His key rampages, ones where he truly was unstoppable for the most part intent on destruction, and the ones most probable to factor into such a permanent decision, were not his fault. Those are the ones I liken to someone being mind-controlled or whatever else.
Though I’ll admit it was a brilliant plan at first. Have this "out of control monster" destroy an out-of-control death satellite, and then exile said monster in one fell swoop. 2 for 1 deals-gotta love them.

It is worthy to note that Bruce Banner, exiled himself to Alaska, because of his preponderance to cause destruction, even if it is not directly his own fault as the Hulk. So really, Bruce, and the Hulk have to come to terms with knowing the Hulk causes damage, and being able to exist in the world with people.

He proved he can exist with people, when the Hulk formed mutually supportive relationships with the people on Sakaar. Now, he just has to forgive himself, and realise he can form just the same relationships on his home planet, as he could on an alien planet. Otherwise, Bruce might as well blow himself up, if he can't see himself in 5 years still being a useful hero on earth.

[Pendaran]

It’s an old comic. The past is the past.

The people arguing for the Hulk repeatedly, over many posts, and many threads, talk about how the Avengers ruined it for the Hulk being able to normally relate to superheroes in a comic that came out around the same time. There are various posts citing good deeds the Hulk has done that he did decades ago. That makes it seem more like the past is the past when it makes the Hulk look bad, but not when it makes people the Hulk doesn't like look bad, or himself look good.

This arc was an interesting one. He was separated from Banner due to extenuating circumstances, and he was constantly in pain and dying by the minute, and his presence was causing reality to rip apart. Not normal circumstances here. Anyways, he stepped on a tram car, not threw them for a little nitpick.

That incarnation of the Hulk is the one Pak cites as where his current personality is from. David went out of his way to establish that said personality could entirely distinguish between right and wrong, and had things like a conscience. That doesn't seem like much extenuating circumstance at all, when the writer goes out of his way to show that regardless of separation from Banner, the "Grayvage Hulk"'s personality remains intact. That was the Grayvage Hulk, as people like to refer to it.



My point is he that he's done it very sparingly

Why does he need to have done it more than sparingly? When someone clinically diagnosed with severe mental disorders shows they will willingly attack populated cities, and has the power to basically destroy them, what then is responsible about going "Well, we'll hope he won't do it".

Anyways, throughout the 2 issues here, he was more interested in getting to Rick and asking him what the hell, instead of focusing on massacring every Avenger.


You missed the part where he tried to drown the Thing and the Thing had to break free or be drowned? Where he demanded the Avengers be given to him or he'd destroy New York city? Where what he actually said he was doing was dragging Rick away so that he could take him out, complete with dialogue as related? Where he constantly talked about his plans to destroy the Avengers, only modifying them as far as wanting to do it when he didn't have to be afraid of Thor's hammer?

The Illuminati were, in fact, punishing him entirely for any rampages or sufferings caused during his ol savage days. Days where the status quo had him reacting instead of acting.

The Illuminati never actually say that's what they're doing, if we're going to get into details, and this is itself even disregarding the general retcon of a death toll and the Hulk's rampages. Their motive is in fact applied generally to the Hulk's rampages, by their talk amongst themselves. They start talking about efforts spent over prolonged periods of time, they start talking about Banner's long term suicidal impulses, Reed's own dialogue is as generalized as talking about the laws of forces of nature, Tony starts the conversation with as general a statement as possible on the Hulk that even Namor doesn't disagree with. It seems facile to say that because they mention Vegas and the Crossroads, they're clearly only talking about maybe that and a few other things. It's beginning to seem a bit pointless to discuss this with you when we're reaching a point of what seems to read as only some comic dialogue counting, but not others, and only some "old comics" counting, but not others. If you don't want to acknowledge that the Hulk has done this kind of thing, has a retcon beyond it, and the rest, that's fine, but that's really just your opinion then. I don't see much of a point to discussing a topic if it's going to be discussed really selectively. I'm suprised though when people cite old comics that make the Hulk look good/the Avengers look like they mistreated him you don't go "the past is the past" though. It's reads like a bizarre arguement to make when your own voiced reason for disregarding the NA retcon is that there are no past comics to support it (irregardless of the notion of needing something that changes past continuity to have proof from that continuity to be odd of itself).

You’re only true case where it was truly intentional with no special “comic book” stuff affecting him was when he stomped on the FF and Avengers waaaaaaay back when. And to a far lesser degree in a fit of madness due to his arch-nemesis in the Leader in issue 400.

The Leader did not cause the Hulk to go insane, the Hulk went insane on his own, laughed like a madman, said everybody dies, and indeed, in the explosion he caused, someone did. It's difficult to try and discuss a comic if you're going to imply details that never happened in the comic and say that another character caused the Hulk's insanity when even the Hulk acknowledges what occured is his own fault. How, ontop of that, is it a lesser case when his rampage actually killed someone that time?

And again, the comic people cite for how mean the Avengers were to the Hulk and how he's right to dislike superheroes happened "waaaaaaaay" back when, but that seems to be fine for you.

The LA rampage beyond that, given the pains David went to to establish that the Grayvage Hulk's personality was intact, as far as noting that among other things, he didn't really want to deal with Heroes Reborn and wanted continue to write the Hulk on the arc he had planned for him, not turning him back into the savage version like marvel editorial were bugging him about, seems to hold up just fine as the Hulk deliberately travelling to a city to rumble it, as he had promised to do.

His key rampages, ones where he truly was unstoppable for the most part intent on destruction, and the ones most probable to factor into such a permanent decision, were not his fault.

A two part arc in which the city of New York is threatened with destruction and various superheroes are nearly killed, I'd call a key rampage, myself.

It doesn't really seem a dismissable point that when a class 100 powerhouse walks the earth with clinically diagnosed insanity, and shows the propensity for homicidal rage, and has shown that he'll entirely act on it for some of the pettiest, most nonsensical reasons possible, that doing what amounts to nothing whatsoever about that is playing pretty callously with humanity.

"Well, he only tried to murder a bunch of people of his own free will and threaten to wipe out a city just the one time due to sheer nonsense, and has shown no remorse for it, nor anything to establish why he won't ever do it again, we should just let that go." Seems well and completely out there, if remarkably forgiving and tolerant of the Avengers to have let go.

More pointedly, even in the savage era you're discussing, the Hulk has gone on rampages for things like realizing Banner was trying to cure himself again, has smacked a commercial plane full of people around while jumping around the countryside and moved on uncaringly after snarking at the results while the FF desperately tried to save the people within, and has various rampages off of provocations that were a far cry beneath say, the army no leaving Hulk alone. He's done stuff in the savage era like grab hostages during fights to make Thor do as he says. There's certainly lots of portrayals where the Hulk comes off well, but there are a fair number where he comes off far more horribly. And when the character's creator's inspiration was Frankenstein's Monster and Jekyll and Hyde, that's honestly only something that should be expected. To argue that the character is especially stable seems to ignore one of the major aspects of the character. That he's not stable. There's a reason that the main problem various people had with the Spider Man unlimited issue of not that long ago was not that it showed the Hulk on a rampage in New York, that part was believable, but that he got taken out by a cement truck. The Hulk not being able to maintain control, going on a rampage in a populated area, and needing superheroes to stop him, is kinda basic to the character. Even Banner himself has shown he's damaged enough to do things like willfully turn himself back into the Hulk because he's jealous of Doc Samson.

[jigrig]

If this were actually a real life situation, a court case if You will, Hulk/Banner on trial with competant Prosecutors, Defense Lawyers & Judge & Jury, They would have to go through every issue in which Hulk & or Banner appears, from being abused by His Father & witnessing the Murder of His Mother as a Youth to the events that lead to the creation of The Hulk, to the moment Hulk destroyed Godseye & was sentenced to exile by a group of Super Powered beings to the destruction of sakaar & most of it's inhabitants, well You get the point I think, I know very little about the law but if I were on a jury & know what I do know because I have every Hulk appearance, Yes even the ones where He is portrayed (usually a guest appearence in some failing book) as clearly the Bad Guy, there is no way I could vote to convict Banner or Hulk, this is in no way meant to justify some of His actions but there are CLEARLY EXTREMELY MITAGABLE circumstances.
The Hulk is more a victim of His power & how He has been prejudged than He is of being a criminal & I would add that there are many so called Super-heroes that have no legitamit defense for their criminal behavoir.
This is of course My opinion.

[Harding Prime]

Yeah, I don't understand why Hulk isn't shown to ask for the Illuminati, and someone tries to bargain with him. Maybe it will show it in the issue. The Hulk seems like he is a reasonable man. I think what has happened, is the Illuminati have rejected the Hulks offer, so that precipitated the confrontation with Iron Man and the heros. We'll just have to wait and see.

Did you just say that it seems like the Hulk is a reasonable man???

LMAO!

[Dagger]

I hope the Hulk rips the Sentry's head off. Gawd, I hate that character.

[Harding Prime]

I hope the Hulk rips the Sentry's head off. Gawd, I hate that character.

I second that...

[Hrungr]

I second that...
Thirded and then some...

[Mjolnir667]

Isn't Professor Hulk already way more intelligent than Thor? And beisdes the Hulk could always just one punch the planet Earth or show up with a gamma bomb and be the only one to walk away. Of course he wouldn't do that(too much pride) just like Thor wouldn't teleport Hulk into deep space. But Thor doesn't have the market cornered when it comes to real power. All the Hulk needs is a little imagination.

Ok, It's not that Hulk is smarter or more powerful, the fight should not even be considered. The Hulk and Thor have no problem with each other, thus the situation should not occur. But if it did, my money is on the Valiant Prince of Asgard Eternal!

[Magneto Rocks]

Thirded and then some...

Fourthed and I don't even like Hulk.

Obviously the IDEAL solution is THOR ripping Sentry's head off but I'll take what I get and fully support Hulk in any Sentry-smashing while still maintaining he is totally, utterly wrong. ;)

[Hrungr]

Speaking of right and wrong, Broken Frontier just posted up their thoughts on the whole grey-area morality prevelant in post CW MU (as it pertains to WWH).

You can find it here: http://www.brokenfrontier.com/columns/details.php?id=686

[Exo]

I happen to like the Sentry character but his potential is deliberately being held back by the writers. He's been underperforming for a while now, as seen in Civil War and now in Mighty Avengers, when he was ment for much bigger things.

BTW: Sentry > Hulk

[Magneto Rocks]

New pages. (Spoilers ahoy)

Just the first few which we basically knew but...

http://www.popcultureshock.com/world-war-hulk-1-preview-2/41973/4/

[jackolover]

Did you just say that it seems like the Hulk is a reasonable man???

LMAO!

Okay. I'm leaving myself open, here.
Let's just say King Holku, the one from Planet Hulk, was a reasonable man. The one on the Stone Ship hurtling towards earth maybe a little messed up. I would hope the Sakaar King Hulk still existed inside the Stone Ship Hulk, somewhere. Now he was a negotiator.

[Harding Prime]

Okay. I'm leaving myself open, here.
Let's just say King Holku, the one from Planet Hulk, was a reasonable man. The one on the Stone Ship hurtling towards earth maybe a little messed up. I would hope the Sakaar King Hulk still existed inside the Stone Ship Hulk, somewhere. Now he was a negotiator.

Perhaprs, and that's a big perhaps, Holku was a reasonable man, but The Hulk on top of the Stone Ship hurdling towards Earth, killing Aliens and eating them like Jeffery Dohmer, coming from where his entire new home planet was destroyed, including his wife and unborn child, is the furtherest thing from reasonable you can be.

[Hrungr]

Just noticed there are a couple of new WWH preview pages up on Broken Frontier. You can find them here: http://www.brokenfrontier.com/headlines/details.php?id=2942
(I thought it best not to post any more spoiler pages directly here)

Looks like IM fans will get to see Extremis getting a nod here. :)

[Magneto Rocks]

It is getting a little ridiculous and Civil War-esque how many pages we're seeing before this issue is out. I'm pretty sure we've seen almost an entire normal comicsworth by now.

But still, it's all the little moments and things between scenes that will come as a surprise! :D

[dabig2]

The people arguing for the Hulk repeatedly, over many posts, and many threads, talk about how the Avengers ruined it for the Hulk being able to normally relate to superheroes in a comic that came out around the same time. There are various posts citing good deeds the Hulk has done that he did decades ago. That makes it seem more like the past is the past when it makes the Hulk look bad, but not when it makes people the Hulk doesn't like look bad, or himself look good.

I say "the past is the past" because the Hulk is a dynamic character and this relates to actions. The Hulk that got pissed off in New York was not the same Hulk that found himself betrayed by his friends. Saying justification for an act he did so long ago and saying that he maybe could pick up a newspaper and so again at his own discretion is a little unfair.


That incarnation of the Hulk is the one Pak cites as where his current personality is from. David went out of his way to establish that said personality could entirely distinguish between right and wrong, and had things like a conscience. That doesn't seem like much extenuating circumstance at all, when the writer goes out of his way to show that regardless of separation from Banner, the "Grayvage Hulk"'s personality remains intact. That was the Grayvage Hulk, as people like to refer to it.

Key point is that the personality is closer to the normal grayvage, not his actions. The actions that he wrought during the Heroes Reborn were due to these circumstances surrounding his separation and the emotional tearing it caused. He was "missing something"-repeated over and over again-usually resulting in a tremendous amount of pain and sufficient rage.



Why does he need to have done it more than sparingly? When someone clinically diagnosed with severe mental disorders shows they will willingly attack populated cities, and has the power to basically destroy them, what then is responsible about going "Well, we'll hope he won't do it".

Simple reason: it's comics. He's been pardoned twice, both of those pardons happening after these events. This shows that they did hold this "well, he won't do it again". Now, what caused this sentiment to change? Events that couldn't possibly be blamed on "well, he did it before and now he's doing it again just because!" This is my main beef with the Illuminati. Hulk tearing Las Vegas was their "that's it", which entirely ignores the circumstances here.

You missed the part where he tried to drown the Thing and the Thing had to break free or be drowned? Where he demanded the Avengers be given to him or he'd destroy New York city? Where what he actually said he was doing was dragging Rick away so that he could take him out, complete with dialogue as related? Where he constantly talked about his plans to destroy the Avengers, only modifying them as far as wanting to do it when he didn't have to be afraid of Thor's hammer?

I judge an issue not from specific points in a story, but consider the entire thing-actions, mannerisms, dialogue and all. In doing so, the Hulk when faced with the opportunity to actually wreak terrible havoc, just grabbed Rick once he did find the avengers and jumped away both times. Like Rick said, he was never really in danger. If doubts were supposed to be cast, if we as readers were supposed to read this as a guy who was fallible in his reasoning, we would've seen it at the end. Yet none. They even sympathize with him and talk how losing a partner "affects a man of action". As for trying to drown the Thing, these fights have always been full of intensity.



The Illuminati never actually say that's what they're doing, if we're going to get into details, and this is itself even disregarding the general retcon of a death toll and the Hulk's rampages. Their motive is in fact applied generally to the Hulk's rampages, by their talk amongst themselves. They start talking about efforts spent over prolonged periods of time, they start talking about Banner's long term suicidal impulses, Reed's own dialogue is as generalized as talking about the laws of forces of nature, Tony starts the conversation with as general a statement as possible on the Hulk that even Namor doesn't disagree with. It seems facile to say that because they mention Vegas and the Crossroads, they're clearly only talking about maybe that and a few other things.

"Because one minute he's under control and a hero, and the next minute he's destroying Vegas" seems to put forth the idea that this mainly about his cut loose savage days and rampages of the effect of Vegas and ones like it. Key words are "he can't control it".


It's beginning to seem a bit pointless to discuss this with you when we're reaching a point of what seems to read as only some comic dialogue counting, but not others, and only some "old comics" counting, but not others. If you don't want to acknowledge that the Hulk has done this kind of thing, has a retcon beyond it, and the rest, that's fine, but that's really just your opinion then. I don't see much of a point to discussing a topic if it's going to be discussed really selectively.

I've been acknowledging them the entire time. Only difference is that when applying these events to the Illuminati's decision, they don't hold. Punishing him because maybe he might do these events again culminating from an attack in Vegas that was in no way his fault is unfair and unjust. If he attacked Vegas in his grayvage conscious mentality, then Maria Hill's point on Spidey not taking care of the Green Goblin holds a little more poignant.



The Leader did not cause the Hulk to go insane, the Hulk went insane on his own, laughed like a madman, said everybody dies, and indeed, in the explosion he caused, someone did. It's difficult to try and discuss a comic if you're going to imply details that never happened in the comic and say that another character caused the Hulk's insanity when even the Hulk acknowledges what occured is his own fault. How, ontop of that, is it a lesser case when his rampage actually killed someone that time?

Holy....I didn't say that the Leader caused him to go insane. I meant that seeing the Leader, his arch-nemesis who killed 5000 people now manipulating Rick and his Pantheon (in his eyes)- caused him to snap. This is a point of saying-so what? Heroes snap all the time. And it was a very short take of madness anyways.


It doesn't really seem a dismissable point that when a class 100 powerhouse walks the earth with clinically diagnosed insanity, and shows the propensity for homicidal rage, and has shown that he'll entirely act on it for some of the pettiest, most nonsensical reasons possible, that doing what amounts to nothing whatsoever about that is playing pretty callously with humanity.

Again, I note, he's received pardons for this. Apparently Marvel U and her characters did pretty much accept this. There's a 1000 things in comics right now that spit in the face of conventional wisdom. "Rectify" one and you have to rectify them all IMO. For starters, how and why wasn't the Juggernaut riding shotgun here among other things. Anyways, my argument is on the spark of this sudden realization that finally they needed to take some final action. And with that, it's time to pull all my focus on the here and now-the main event.



Okay. I'm leaving myself open, here.
Let's just say King Holku, the one from Planet Hulk, was a reasonable man. The one on the Stone Ship hurtling towards earth maybe a little messed up. I would hope the Sakaar King Hulk still existed inside the Stone Ship Hulk, somewhere. Now he was a negotiator.

He has that summer blockbuster, dude mowing down armies with his AK and rocket launcher "I'm going to kill them...I'll kill all of them!" mentality going on. I'm down with that :cool:

[Mike Smash!]

Merged the WWH preview thread into this one because (1) the issue's already out and (2) the discussion was overlapping this one very heavily, so it felt a bit redundant.

[Pendaran]

I say "the past is the past" because the Hulk is a dynamic character and this relates to actions. The Hulk that got pissed off in New York was not the same Hulk that found himself betrayed by his friends. Saying justification for an act he did so long ago and saying that he maybe could pick up a newspaper and so again at his own discretion is a little unfair.

It's perfectly fair when the writer cites the Hulk that's around as being that incarnation of the Hulk from such and David's writing. He cites the Hulk's original portrayals and PAD's "Grayvage" Hulk in his interviews.

So, actually, according to Pak, that is the same Hulk.

And doesn't really address the point about why you don't say that when people invoke Avengers 1 over and over as to the Hulk's grievances against superheroes. The past certainly counts there, it would seem.

Key point is that the personality is closer to the normal grayvage, not his actions. The actions that he wrought during the Heroes Reborn were due to these circumstances surrounding his separation and the emotional tearing it caused. He was "missing something"-repeated over and over again-usually resulting in a tremendous amount of pain and sufficient rage.

Except that, again, he went for an extended period showing he could act normally with his personality despite it, so that doesn't track. The Hulk being self indulgent about his pain as far as an entirely cold blooded ultimatum he gave to the US military doesn't make the Hulk look good.

Holy....I didn't say that the Leader caused him to go insane.

Your post was "due to the Leader", I can only tell you how things read.

Simple reason: it's comics. He's been pardoned twice, both of those pardons happening after these events. This shows that they did hold this "well, he won't do it again". Now, what caused this sentiment to change? Events that couldn't possibly be blamed on "well, he did it before and now he's doing it again just because!" This is my main beef with the Illuminati. Hulk tearing Las Vegas was their "that's it", which entirely ignores the circumstances here.


And his status reverts despite these pardons. And doesn't really change that "well, he won't do it again" is a nonsensical statement. Frankly saying "it's comics" and "the past is past".. it applies exactly to the arguements you're trying to make. Them not caring? That's in the past. That they care now? Well, "that's comics". It's really hard to discuss this if you want to be that selective about when what happened in past comics count and when they don't. His pardons for instance were over a decade ago and the army has gone after him since. That seems past too.

I judge an issue not from specific points in a story, but consider the entire thing-actions, mannerisms, dialogue and all. In doing so, the Hulk when faced with the opportunity to actually wreak terrible havoc, just grabbed Rick once he did find the avengers and jumped away both times.

Then you're ignoring where he tried to drown the Thing and noted himself he was doing that because he felt he couldn't take on the Avengers all at once, specifically noting his dread of Thor's hammer. That doesn't really work for stating you're examining an issue as a whole, then saying you're isolating repeated pages of dialogue, narration and actual incidents from it. I'm sorry, but this is where I'm going to have to stop. This is twice now where you're seeming to ignore what goes on in the comic to establish your own version of the comic. The Hulk's dialogue is repeatedly about destroying the Avengers. The narration establishes it ontop of that. He tries to drown someone that tries to stop him. He threatens to wipe out the city unless he gets what he wants. I'd think if you're talking about overall impression, that would be pretty telling. I'll simply tell you that my opinions aren't swayed by selective discussions of a comic that omit key details of it, and while you're entitled to view things as you do, it's pointless to discuss them if you're just going to ignore things that happen in comics that make the Hulk look bad. That's not a discussion, that's a series of paralell posts that have nothing to do with each other.

I've been acknowledging them the entire time

To me you've mostly been dismissing them. Despite Hulk's constant talk of wanting to kill people and threats to an entire city, you've dismissed that issue and his actions in it, especially where he tries to kill someone. You say that the Professor Hulk only went crazy a little while and it was a "lesser incident", even though someone actually died because of his rampage and he acknowledged it. That you have a completely different standard for the Hulk's actions is certainly fine as a viewpoint to have, we all ocassionally hold characters we like as being above having to be accountable for seriously horrid things they do, it just means that an attempt to discuss said actions are basically impossible, when your repeated response is that they don't count, but anything that makes the Hulk look good does count. Whether comics from the past, or dialogue that supports you, or accounts of an entire issue that.. seriously contradict that actual issue, I don't really have any way to dress that up. This is itself irregardless of things like a retcon about the Hulk and death tolls that a "past is past" attitude shouldn't really allow for you citing past continuity as a reason to deny it. There are even all that aside multiple incidents in the Savage era alone that just look bad. The callous plane smacking around for one. The things you think are irrelevant, I can't possibly see how they are, and that's just where it is. So I'll leave this where it is as my final note on the matter.

[Kevinroc]

From PAD's interview talking about taking over She-Hulk:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=10890


Let's face it, whatever else you say about the Hulk; Bruce Banner remains a citizen of the United States. What Tony Stark and his peers did was no less than a federal crime. It was kidnapping. They kidnapped him. Since S.H.I.E.L.D. was involved what it really boils down to is a federally endorsed kidnapping.

[Kage Kisaragi]

lets look at the situation in WWH.

You have 4 individuals who came together and formed an independant free thinking group who took upon themselves to decide what should happen in superhuman community. (There was more than 4 but for the purpose of WWH only those present in deciding his fate are important to this topic.) This group decides that its in the worlds best interest (Though at the time they as a whole have no government positions that allow them to decide anything on the planets behalf.) to send the Hulk into deep space.

After being wronged by his so called friends Hulk fights for his life on a savage unknown planet and rises to become a ruler. He gains practically everything he wants in life but this is all taken from him when the ship he was exiled in explodes and kills his wife, his unborn child, destroys his crown city and kills nearly all his subjects. Hulk then launches a counter assault on Earth with the rest of his friends from his ruined planet.

Now the War has begone.

Here is the new point of view that a friend of mine brought to my attention, something I think the writers at marvel should have considered. (not necessarily implemented but atleast come up with a side note or alternative series of mini's that shows this potential scenerio.)

We all know that its best to sever the limb to prevent the spread of infection, we know that sometimes sacrifices must be made for the greater good or to avoid potential problems. So don't you think it would have been more realistic after seeing the Hulk's holographic projections of what caused him to return in such a tyraid to actually sacrifice the four individuals responsible for this crisis?

Reed, Tony, Steven and Blacktagar all made this decision as far as I know on their own, they can't speak for the planet, they have no right. So wouldn't it had made more sense to give them up? Yes im sure those 4 are strong and smart, but we are talking about all the ruling goverments of the world standing united as well as all registered and possibly some unregistered superheroes/villains to have come together and captured them all. Then offer them to the Hulk so as to prevent a war with him? He is in the right after all, they iniated the attack.

So what do you guys thank of this point of view that a friend of mine brou