World War Hulk: Whose side are YOU on?

[Enigmanaut]

I think he should just get a really bad beating but survive... so you can think about what you've done, mister!!!

[Maestro]

I want Hulk to get the thrashing and for Tony to stand tall

[BeastieRunner]

I hope we get some classic Hulk line out of it along with some good ol' can of ass whooping for Tony.

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Death to Stark... For a couple of years anyway

[rZi]

Just a beat down, make him see sense so he can fix all the mess he's done from CW.

[Brian M.]

Yes lets kill the most interesting character in the entire Marvel Universe.

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Ironman? Interesting?

Why has he suddenly become interesting? Is it because he is now a total scum-bag?

[Brian M.]

Ironman? Interesting?

Why has he suddenly become interesting? Is it because he is now a total scum-bag?

Would anything I say remotely convince you of my opinion?

[Dark Soul # 7]

Ironman? Interesting?

Why has he suddenly become interesting? Is it because he is now a total scum-bag?Total scum-bags can be very interesting. Look at the new Ant-man and all the actual villains of the Marvel universe.

Personally I think that tony should get a severe trashing. Though I don't understand how that would make him "see sense" in any way.

[Mr Fixit]

At first I went for giving Stark a thrashing to make him see the errors of his ways. Then I thought that could possibly undo everything that Civil War was about.
If you have the leader of the Registration act say "oops a bit of a mistake" then there would be no point in Starks passion to get everyone to sign up.
So kill Tony Stark make it symbolic to everyone who is his allies and let them know that just because they are with the govenment doesn't mean they are any safer.

[HandofBlood]

maybe when hulk gets back, tony will sit him down have a chat and convince him to signup.

alternativly, the hulk could beat the asshat to a pulp , with the secret avengers swooping in to rescuing him at the last minute.

[chrismileslord]

Yes lets kill the most interesting character in the entire Marvel Universe.

Most interesting? I have to disagree with you there...

Now he causes the most drama, but I just don't find him that interesting.

[Magneto Rocks]

I don't think he deserves it but I want him smashed for story purposes!

[XPac]

It's a Hulk story... he's gotta SMASH something.

And even if Starks hurt, it's not like he'll be out long enough for anyone to miss him. Odds are he'll still be in 6 other books a week. So Hulk is free to smash to his hearts content... it'll have little or no consequence and it'll be fun to see.

[Den]

Whether Tony survives or not, I want his machinations exposed.

[Exo]

Cry me a river...

[Arrjay]

I voted for the massive beating option.

'Cause I want Thor to kill him a few issues later.

[Arrjay]

Yes lets kill the most interesting character in the entire Marvel Universe.

In my opinion Spider Woman is far more interesting than Iron Man.

"Most interesting" is a matter of opinion.

Like politics. Or religion.

;)

[ivesaidway2much]

Cry me a river...Don't worry, I think Iron man is going to have us all beat in that department.

[Exo]

Don't worry, I think Iron man is going to have us all beat in that department.

He did cry in Frontline.

Hmmm, touché.

[Slumber Hulk]

A sound beating will be both fun and the most you can hope for... that is if he gets back from being a woman in time to catch a beating... if he wants to survive he better stay fused with Ultron.

[dabig2]

A vicious beatdown will fill my bloodlust enough. Our favorite metal douchebag just needs a good Hulk-powered fist to the head. Multiple times to the head all throughout the arc.

[XPac]

The only thing cooler than Hulk beating down Iron Man would be if Tony Stark somehow someway tricked Sally Floyd into getting into his armor right before the Hulk showed up.

Dam it... I've never wished I could be a marvel writer more than right this moment.

[Magneto Rocks]

The only thing cooler than Hulk beating down Iron Man would be if Tony Stark somehow someway tricked Sally Floyd into getting into his armor right before the Hulk showed up.

Dam it... I've never wished I could be a marvel writer more than right this moment.

You and me both XPac.

It achieves the dual purpose of killing her and single handedly redeeming Iron Man forever in the eyes of the fans...

[dabig2]

The only thing cooler than Hulk beating down Iron Man would be if Tony Stark somehow someway tricked Sally Floyd into getting into his armor right before the Hulk showed up.

Dam it... I've never wished I could be a marvel writer more than right this moment.

Iron Man:"Hey Sally Floyd, do you want an exclusive on how it feels to be Iron Man for a day!"
Floyd: "Well Mr. Stark, sure I do! What a story that'd be. So I just climb into here and....woah, this is hi-tech! It reminds me of that one time I climbed into a Nascar racecar"
Floyd-"Mr. Stark....Tony....ummmm,where'd you go? Oh my God, is that the Hulk? Why is he running straight at me! I didn't touch anything, did I! Holy ****!"
Tony: "Damn, too bad. I would've loved to hit that sometime."

[Enigmanaut]

In my opinion Spider Woman is far more interesting than Iron Man.


Hell, Molly Hayes is more interesting than Iron Man...

[Magneto Rocks]

Iron Man:"Hey Sally Floyd, do you want an exclusive on how it feels to be Iron Man for a day!"
Floyd: "Well Mr. Stark, sure I do! What a story that'd be. So I just climb into here and....woah, this is hi-tech! It reminds me of that one time I climbed into a Nascar racecar"
Floyd-"Mr. Stark....Tony....ummmm,where'd you go? Oh my God, is that the Hulk? Why is he running straight at me! I didn't touch anything, did I! Holy ****!"
Tony: "Damn, too bad. I would've loved to hit that sometime."

You forgot:

Floyd- "NO! YOU CAN'T KILL ME! YOU DON'T HAVE MYSPACE! MYYYYYSSSPPPPAAACCCEEEEE!!!!!"

[Enigmanaut]

You forgot:

Floyd- "NO! YOU CAN'T KILL ME! YOU DON'T HAVE MYSPACE! MYYYYYSSSPPPPAAACCCEEEEE!!!!!"

"Watching the Simpsons and NASCAR on YouTube will save me!!!"

[desanth]

I voted for IM death, just b/c I dislike him so much.

[Monty_Cristo]

Tony is an ass. He deserves whatever he gets by the merciless Class 100 hands of the Green Goliath.

Give him one for Captain America, Hulk.

The Hulk is an ass and more consistently so. if you want to debate it, feel free to list all of Stark's transgressions.

[Syzygy]

The Hulk is an ass and more consistently so. if you want to debate it, feel free to list all of Stark's transgressions.

I don't want to go so far as to call the Hulk an ass, but I'm still on the Illuminati's side in this. The Hulk has done more than his fair share of horrible things, after all.

For example, Fantastic Four #166, the Hulk, while jumping, accidently collides with the wing of a 747 passenger jet in flight, knocking it off. The jet was full of passengers. This was Hulk's reaction:



HULK: Huh? What was that? Hulk thought he felt something -- like a gnat hitting Hulk's skin. Hah! It was just one of the puny humans' planes! Nothing that could hurt Hulk!

A Boeing 747 passenger jet carries anywhere from 416 to 524 passengers. Hulk didn't give even a passing thought that they were now hurtling towards their deaths. No expression of remorse or effort to save them. Nothing but callousness.

Fortunately, the Fantastic Four saved the jet...although just barely.

So, while still being a long-time Hulk fan (all the way back to when he was fighting the terrible Toad Men), I have to confess I do see the Illuminati's point of view. If I was a civilian in the MU, and I'd heard of the above plane incident, I'd want the Illuminati to send Hulk away.

Needless to say, I voted for the third option. His exiling Hulk is understandable, and he deserves no beat down for it.

As a point of interest, my collection of The Incredible Hulk far exausts the few issues of Iron Man in my possession, so I'm actually much more of a Hulk fan than an Iron Man fan. Go figure.

[Enigmanaut]

I don't want to go so far as to call the Hulk an ass, but I'm still on the Illuminati's side in this. The Hulk has done more than his fair share of horrible things, after all.

For example, Fantastic Four #166, the Hulk, while jumping, accidently collides with the wing of a 747 passenger jet in flight, knocking it off. The jet was full of passengers. This was Hulk's reaction:



A Boeing 747 passenger jet carries anywhere from 416 to 524 passengers. Hulk didn't give even a passing thought that they were now hurtling towards their deaths. No expression of remorse or effort to save them. Nothing but callousness.

Fortunately, the Fantastic Four saved the jet...although just barely.

So, while still being a long-time Hulk fan (all the way back to when he was fighting the terrible Toad Men), I have to confess I do see the Illuminati's point of view. If I was a civilian in the MU, and I'd heard of the above plane incident, I'd want the Illuminati to send Hulk away.

Needless to say, I voted for the third option. His exiling Hulk is understandable, and he deserves no beat down for it.

As a point of interest, my collection of The Incredible Hulk far exausts the few issues of Iron Man in my possession, so I'm actually much more of a Hulk fan than an Iron Man fan. Go figure.

There's a difference between having a good case for an exile, and taking it upon yourself to carry out that exile. The Illuminati didn't bring their case to the appropriate authorities and appeal to the courts to allow them the authority to exile the Hulk. They didn't open it to public debate, or allow for any appeal. They simply decided, with authority they assumed as their own, to send the Hulk away.

If you ask me, a secret cabal of superbeings, answerable to nobody, and acting above the law is a WAY more frightening prospect than a single green monster who occasionally smashes things.

Iron Man started Civil War on the premise that superheroes should act with the authority of the people, openly and with accountability, but the Illuminati (Stark's idea) is a directly contradictory betrayal of that very concept. He convinced the other members to act in this secret organization, and he conceived the idea of punishing the Hulk when it simply wasn't his decision to make.

Lately, Tony Stark has been doing nothing but this. Making unilateral decisions about what he considers best for people. He's manipulated events, and even outright manufactured a few to try and give himself the aura of authority. This is Doctor Doom or Magneto territory. He's not acting like a hero. He's acting like he knows better than everybody, and demanding that everyone kowtow to his judgment.

And if I hear "I'm a futurist..." once more...

[Syzygy]

There's a difference between having a good case for an exile, and taking it upon yourself to carry out that exile. The Illuminati didn't bring their case to the appropriate authorities and appeal to the courts to allow them the authority to exile the Hulk. They didn't open it to public debate, or allow for any appeal. They simply decided, with authority they assumed as their own, to send the Hulk away.

If you ask me, a secret cabal of superbeings, answerable to nobody, and acting above the law is a WAY more frightening prospect than a single green monster who occasionally smashes things.

Knocking a jet out of the sky, destroying peoples homes and businesses, and occassionally causing the deaths of innocents isn't something to be lightly dismissed as mere "smashing".

As for legal matters, I can only imagine how many court cases await the Hulk: tort, assualt and battery, reckless endangerment, manslaughter....

When was the last time the Hulk showed up in court to answer these charges? Is it reasonable to expect him to? The Hulk likely has thousands of civil and criminal actions pending against him. How will you hold Hulk helpless during a trial, even assuming you can capture him? That the Illuminati should exile him, given that there's really no other alternative, doesn't strike me as at all outrageous.

Superheroes regularly make decisions about protecting their world from threats that are way beyond the reach of law. For example, should Sentry have gotten a court order before throwing Void into the sun?

Iron Man started Civil War on the premise that superheroes should act with the authority of the people, openly and with accountability, but the Illuminati (Stark's idea) is a directly contradictory betrayal of that very concept. He convinced the other members to act in this secret organization, and he conceived the idea of punishing the Hulk when it simply wasn't his decision to make.

Iron Man didn't start Civil War. The US Congress did with the SHRA. IM simply decided to go along with it. The alternative was to become an outlaw, rebel, or simply retire. Should Marvel's heroes have overthrown the government? Mind controlled Congress to repeal the Act?

The Illuminati predates the SHRA, so Stark can hardly be blamed for it contradicting the spirit of the SHRA. And I believe the Illuminati is defunct now that the SHRA has passed.

And I believe it was Maria Hill who suggested stopping the Hulk permanently.

No, they didn't exile Hulk to "punish" him, but to protect civilians from incidents like knocking a passenger jet out of the sky.

Would your opinion of exiling the Hulk have changed if they had gotten an Executive Order from the President? Or if some Federal Judge had found Hulk guilty in absentia and sentenced him to be exiled to another world?

Lately, Tony Stark has been doing nothing but this. Making unilateral decisions about what he considers best for people. He's manipulated events, and even outright manufactured a few to try and give himself the aura of authority. This is Doctor Doom or Magneto territory. He's not acting like a hero. He's acting like he knows better than everybody, and demanding that everyone kowtow to his judgment.

Yes, several writers have gone out of they're way to make Tony do some very bad things indeed. The Atlantean incident, the Titantium Man ruse, the Thor clone.... It seems to me that perhaps these writers fear too strong a case for registration unless thay go out of their way to have IM do bad things.

Really though, Civil War could have proceeded apace without IM resorting to heavy handed tactics.

Nevertheless, the Hulk is a separate case from, say, recruiting supervillains with brain-molding nannites. It's pretty clear to me that Hulk is extremely dangerous to civilians, and totally beyond the reach of the authorities, whether in the form of police or military. Since conventional authority couldn't handle matters, the Illuminati did.

Elitist? Yes. The burden of power? Yes to that too. Now that SHRA is in force, however, superheroes will presumably get more support from the authorities in the form of sharing responsibility when extreme moral decisions have to be made.

Since you object to the Illuminati's high-handed tactics, Enigmanaut, may I assume you're a big supporter of the SHRA?

And if I hear "I'm a futurist..." once more...

Don't blame Tony for his lame dialogue. He's not writing it.:)

[Adamantium_Avatar]

Well, my main wish is for Hulk to SMASH Mr Stark into Scumbag Jam and then Sentry comes swooping in and ties Hulk into knots.. literally!

How Hulk has kept going as a 'character' for so many years is truly beyond me! Hulk Smash is not my idea of creative character development.. He did it in his very first book and "Oh look" he is still doing it now... sigh

[Kevinroc]

Beyond the recording where they apologize to Bruce (which they lied to him in already, so that "apology" could be considered pretty phony), The Illuminati have not shown any regret for their decision to exile The Hulk. They basically just seem to give the company line when someone asks about Hulk. We haven't seen a scene where a member of The Illuminati has trouble looking at himself in the mirror over the decision to exile Hulk.

Does this make them look bad? Would a moment of remorse go a long way?

[CMBMOOL]

I agree, I mean we seen Tony admitting to a DEAD Captain America that none of his actions for Civil War were worth it, but I guess he forgot to mention the Hulk. :mad:

I sure when the team is expose for the exile and confronted by those they call family and friends, then maybe we could see a little remorse for their actions. :mad:

[XPac]

Beyond the recording where they apologize to Bruce (which they lied to him in already, so that "apology" could be considered pretty phony), The Illuminati have not shown any regret for their decision to exile The Hulk. They basically just seem to give the company line when someone asks about Hulk. We haven't seen a scene where a member of The Illuminati has trouble looking at himself in the mirror over the decision to exile Hulk.

Does this make them look bad? Would a moment of remorse go a long way?

I'm fairly certain they will show a great deal of regret over what they did to the Hulk when he shows up. Hulk is gonna make them regret it.

[Exo]

The Illuminati have not shown any regret for their decision to exile The Hulk.

Why should they feel regret when they were absolutely sure this was the best, and arguably, only solution on the table? I can see Strange (and to some extent Reed) feeling a bit remorse over the loss of a friend. The same can't be said about Tony who IIRC was never warmly attached to the Hulk. Neither was Blackbolt or even Xavier.

[Brian M.]

Your assuming that what they did was wrong. They had valid reasons, they believe they did the right thing. They apologized to Bruce for what the Hulk does. I don't think they should show any.

[XPac]

Why should they feel regret when they were absolutely sure this was the best, and arguably, only solution on the table? I can see Strange (and to some extent Reed) feeling a bit remorse over the loss of a friend. The same can't be said about Tony who IIRC was never warmly attached to the Hulk. Neither was Blackbolt or even Xavier.

Stark has already came up with something that could strip away Hulks powers (even though it probably won't work here). And I don't think too much time has passed since they sent Hulk away... a few months maybe. So I'm not sure it's fair to say launching him into space was the best or the only option.

Hell, with Dr. Strange standing right there I can't imagine it would be that hard to come up with a few alternatives.

[Syzygy]

Your assuming that what they did was wrong. They had valid reasons, they believe they did the right thing. They apologized to Bruce for what the Hulk does. I don't think they should show any.

Agree. No remorse for the exile, just regret as to its necessity.

When they learn of the ship going nuke and killing a million people, however, there will be more than remorse. There will be guilt as deep as an ocean. How can they ever overcome something like that? It's a psychological death blow, and far worse than any mere physical beating.

[CMBMOOL]

Why should they feel regret when they were absolutely sure this was the best, and arguably, only solution on the table? I can see Strange (and to some extent Reed) feeling a bit remorse over the loss of a friend. The same can't be said about Tony who IIRC was never warmly attached to the Hulk. Neither was Blackbolt or even Xavier.

What about Reed, his remorse should be shown because of his friendship with the Thing and how he is also a "monster" as well. :mad:

[CMBMOOL]

Agree. No remorse for the exile, just regret as to its necessity.

When they learn of the ship going nuke and killing a million people, however, there will be more than remorse. There will be guilt as deep as an ocean. How can they ever overcome something like that? It's a psychological death blow, and far worse than any mere physical beating.

How about adding more salt to the wound, when they are confronted by friends and family over this situtation. :mad:

That more of an emotional beating than any physical beating the Hulk going to give them. :evilsmile

[Kevinroc]

Why should they feel regret when they were absolutely sure this was the best, and arguably, only solution on the table? I can see Strange (and to some extent Reed) feeling a bit remorse over the loss of a friend. The same can't be said about Tony who IIRC was never warmly attached to the Hulk. Neither was Blackbolt or even Xavier.

So asking Hulk to save the world, lying to him and exiling him to deep space isn't something that should make them look at themselves in the mirror and just think "doing that was disgusting..." We haven't seen even that tinge of regret.

Even if you think they did the right thing, you have to admit that they did it in a rather disgusting manner. Lying, kidnapping and exiling someone against their will should not be taken as heroic qualities.

[Brian M.]

So asking Hulk to save the world, lying to him and exiling him to deep space isn't something that should make them look at themselves in the mirror and just think "doing that was disgusting..." We haven't seen even that tinge of regret.

Even if you think they did the right thing, you have to admit that they did it in a rather disgusting manner. Lying, kidnapping and exiling someone against their will should not be taken as heroic qualities.

Well they might feel bad that it came down to that, but as for the act itself, probably not.

Another poster brought up about the ship exploding and killing the planet...yea they'll probably feel bad about that.

[Kevinroc]

Well they might feel bad that it came down to that, but as for the act itself, probably not.

Another poster brought up about the ship exploding and killing the planet...yea they'll probably feel bad about that.

The thing is they haven't felt bad about the methods they used to exile The Hulk. That's one of the big things about this thread (and one of the things that may irritate Hulk fans).

The question is: Why?

[Brian M.]

The thing is they haven't felt bad about the methods they used to exile The Hulk. That's one of the big things about this thread (and one of the things that may irritate Hulk fans).

The question is: Why?

Becuase they did the right thing.

[Syzygy]

How Hulk has kept going as a 'character' for so many years is truly beyond me! Hulk Smash is not my idea of creative character development.. He did it in his very first book and "Oh look" he is still doing it now... sigh

Actually, despite my siding with the Illuminati in this, I'm a commited Hulk fan. IMO, as a comic, Hulk has continually been a top-tier book, whereas the quality of say, Iron Man and Fantastic Four goes up and down sporadically.

[Silver Nimbus]

Where is the sorely needed Iron Man kills the Hulk and sells the broken carcass for Gamma-based Dog Food option? I mean, how could it possibly end any other way?

[Kevinroc]

Becuase they did the right thing.

So it's okay to lie to someone, to betray someone and to exile them to deep space?

Honestly, that's what Hulk should say. "They lied to me and shot me into space but it's okay because I'm a 'monster'?"

[Silver Nimbus]

What about Reed, his remorse should be shown because of his friendship with the Thing and how he is also a "monster" as well. :mad:

I don't recall Ben Grimm going on regular rampages where he wantonly destroys private and government property while endangering the lives of the general populace.

The Thing is a credit to the Marvel Universe. The Hulk on the other hand is largely a menace that occassionally does something productive. He's like a tidal wave to Ben Grimm's fireboat - sometimes he puts out a forest fire in the area he innundates, but most of the time the damage is entirely unproductive. On the other hand, Grimm might be ugly but he does a great deal of public service with minimal side effects.

Why would Richards feel bad about stopping Tidal waves?

[ivesaidway2much]

Knocking a jet out of the sky, destroying peoples homes and businesses, and occassionally causing the deaths of innocents isn't something to be lightly dismissed as mere "smashing".

As for legal matters, I can only imagine how many court cases await the Hulk: tort, assualt and battery, reckless endangerment, manslaughter....

When was the last time the Hulk showed up in court to answer these charges? Is it reasonable to expect him to? The Hulk likely has thousands of civil and criminal actions pending against him. How will you hold Hulk helpless during a trial, even assuming you can capture him? That the Illuminati should exile him, given that there's really no other alternative, doesn't strike me as at all outrageous.

Superheroes regularly make decisions about protecting their world from threats that are way beyond the reach of law. For example, should Sentry have gotten a court order before throwing Void into the sun?
The Hulk has been on trial at least twice before. In fact, Tony Stark freed him from his first one.

But if you're alright with some superhumans taking the law into their own hands, why can't the Hulk. Reed Richards let Galactus live. Tony Stark has broken all kinds of laws to keep his identity secret, commit acts of terrorism, and suspend habeus corpus. Inhumans acting under Black Bolt's orders murdered innocent civillians including little children. And all the Illuminati may be responsible for the deaths of millions on Sakaar. What gives them the right to make the tough decisions when their crimes have resulted in just as much if not more pain and loss than the Hulk's?

[Brian M.]

So it's okay to lie to someone, to betray someone and to exile them to deep space?

Honestly, that's what Hulk should say. "They lied to me and shot me into space but it's okay because I'm a 'monster'?"

Yes, b/c he's a monster. What were they gonna do...ask him nicely? Arrest him. Say they do all that, put him on trial and find him guilty...you really think he's gonna let them touch him?

[Exo]

So I'm not sure it's fair to say launching him into space was the best or the only option.

At the time, New Avengers: Illuminati special, they said there was nothing left on the table. Well, except killing him.

[Exo]

So asking Hulk to save the world, lying to him and exiling him to deep space isn't something that should make them look at themselves in the mirror and just think "doing that was disgusting..."

Again why should Tony/Blackbolt/Xavier (though he wasn't involved) feel any disgust when they're not emotionally attached to the Hulk? Tony could have and probably felt sympathy for the big ogre. But disgust by sending him to, what he thought was, paradise planet?

[Kevinroc]

Again why should Tony/Blackbolt/Xavier (though he wasn't involved) feel any disgust when they're not emotionally attached to the Hulk? Tony could have and probably felt sympathy for the big ogre. But disgust by sending him to, what he thought was, paradise planet?

Considering that Tony once called his failure with The Hulk as an Avengers member to be "one of the biggest regrets" of his life, I think he has some attachment to the not-so-jolly green giant.

[Kevinroc]

Yes, b/c he's a monster. What were they gonna do...ask him nicely? Arrest him. Say they do all that, put him on trial and find him guilty...you really think he's gonna let them touch him?

But it's that they have seemingly felt nothing about what they did. They don't look at themselves in the mirror and try to tell themselves they did the right thing.

They've sold out their principles and don't even show the slightest bit of regret about it.

[XPac]

At the time, New Avengers: Illuminati special, they said there was nothing left on the table. Well, except killing him.

Perhaps...but it's awefully convinient that he couldn't come up with something to take away Hulks powers when they were trying to help the Hulk. Yet he was able to come up with it quickly enough when he needed it to help himself FROM the Hulk.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Considering that Tony once called his failure with The Hulk as an Avengers member to be "one of the biggest regrets" of his life, I think he has some attachment to the not-so-jolly green giant.

That's probably along the lines of a missed opportunity he had. When the Avengers were formed, they turned on Hulk pretty quickly. I'm sure Stark wonders from time to time, 'What if we hadn't jumped the gun?'

[The Cool Thatguy]

Perhaps...but it's awefully convinient that he couldn't come up with something to take away Hulks powers when they were trying to help the Hulk. Yet he was able to come up with it quickly enough when he needed it to help himself FROM the Hulk.

Covering your own ass is the mother of all invention ;)

[StoneGold]

What about Reed, his remorse should be shown because of his friendship with the Thing and how he is also a "monster" as well. :mad:

No, Thing looks like a monster, but is the most human of us all. Whereas Hulk, well, he just smashes.

[Exo]

Considering that Tony once called his failure with The Hulk as an Avengers member to be "one of the biggest regrets" of his life, I think he has some attachment to the not-so-jolly green giant.

He probably has but not an emotional one. They're not friends and never were. I'd be suprised if Tony beat himself up because of this.

[Pendaran]

Perhaps...but it's awefully convinient that he couldn't come up with something to take away Hulks powers when they were trying to help the Hulk. Yet he was able to come up with it quickly enough when he needed it to help himself FROM the Hulk.

It took him months and control over SHIELD and access to its resources and scientists to develop the nanotech, none of which are things he had at the time or could be expected to have, considering that even when Nick Fury's been in charge, SHIELD's relationships with other heroes is often basically arbitrary and random, with even Nick himself ocassionally kidnapping and brainwashing other heroes when it suits him. It's not like it was something he could develop at the time of himself.

And beyond that, maybe he figured things had reached a point where waiting months and months to work on it wasn't worth gambling that the Hulk wouldn't flip out on humanity in the interim.

[Exo]

Perhaps...but it's awefully convinient that he couldn't come up with something to take away Hulks powers when they were trying to help the Hulk.

I think it was a plotpoint to send Hulk into space. You could have Xavier shut his mind and keep him in suspended hybernation but there's no story in that.

[StoneGold]

But it's that they have seemingly felt nothing about what they did. They don't look at themselves in the mirror and try to tell themselves they did the right thing.

They've sold out their principles and don't even show the slightest bit of regret about it.

Sold out what principles? About exiling people? Hell, that's Plan A for Strange. Got a problem? Banish it. As for Reed, Hulk's just lucky Reed didn't try something wacky like hypnotizing him into thinking he was a cow. Black Bolt's done the occasional kingly banishment, IIRC.


Truth is, the one guy who should have been all over this is Namor. He loves banishing, and he hates the Hulk. Really, if Reed hadn't brought it up first, Namor would have been all "Any way we can toss the Hulk into a black hole?" But because Reed brought it up, Namor has to get all debate-y. Because that's the kind of jerkoff Namor is.

[StoneGold]

I think it was a plotpoint to send Hulk into space. You could have Xavier shut his mind and keep him in suspended hybernation but there's no story in that.

I believe Chuck was a combination of dead and/or powerless at the time. Besides that, mentally pacifying the Hulk is always an iffy option at best. Restraining the Hulk never works. He always ends up powering out of it somehow.

[CMBMOOL]

I don't recall Ben Grimm going on regular rampages where he wantonly destroys private and government property while endangering the lives of the general populace.

The Thing is a credit to the Marvel Universe. The Hulk on the other hand is largely a menace that occassionally does something productive. He's like a tidal wave to Ben Grimm's fireboat - sometimes he puts out a forest fire in the area he innundates, but most of the time the damage is entirely unproductive. On the other hand, Grimm might be ugly but he does a great deal of public service with minimal side effects.

Why would Richards feel bad about stopping Tidal waves?

May I remind you of the one cure Ben had when he could instantly transform himself back and forth into the Thing, towards the Climax he went on a rampage within Manatthan, who Stopped him ?


THE HULK.

http://www.leaderslair.com/fantasticfour/ff112.html


There were several times that Ben have destroyed Reed Cures in the past up until the point where he is glad to be the Thing.


Now my concern is that if Reed could understand that Ben is happy as the Thing, then couldn't the same be said for the Hulk, because as Adamus Cho explained in #100 of the Incredible Hulk:

THe last time the Hulk went on a rampage in Las Vagas, he was blasted by a gamma bomb, then harassed by the Thing and the Human torch, Reed's partners of the FF.

They could have just left him alone, I mean if Reed could see Ben be happy as the Thing, then maybe he could see Bruce having reach an agreement with the Hulk. :(

[CMBMOOL]

Perhaps...but it's awefully convinient that he couldn't come up with something to take away Hulks powers when they were trying to help the Hulk. Yet he was able to come up with it quickly enough when he needed it to help himself FROM the Hulk.

Agreed that is really slimey to me. :mad:

[Kevinroc]

Sold out what principles? About exiling people? Hell, that's Plan A for Strange. Got a problem? Banish it. As for Reed, Hulk's just lucky Reed didn't try something wacky like hypnotizing him into thinking he was a cow. Black Bolt's done the occasional kingly banishment, IIRC.


Truth is, the one guy who should have been all over this is Namor. He loves banishing, and he hates the Hulk. Really, if Reed hadn't brought it up first, Namor would have been all "Any way we can toss the Hulk into a black hole?" But because Reed brought it up, Namor has to get all debate-y. Because that's the kind of jerkoff Namor is.

Heh... I meant about asking someone to save the world and then stabbing them in the back.

Lying, backstabbing, and kidnapping are not exactly heroic qualities.

[StoneGold]

They could have just left him alone, I mean if Reed could see Ben be happy as the Thing, then maybe he could see Bruce having reach an agreement with the Hulk. :(

They did leave him alone. And then he trashed Las Vegas.

[Kevinroc]

I believe Chuck was a combination of dead and/or powerless at the time. Besides that, mentally pacifying the Hulk is always an iffy option at best. Restraining the Hulk never works. He always ends up powering out of it somehow.

We already saw in the preview that Iron Man's little nanite injection doesn't work.

[StoneGold]

Heh... I meant about asking someone to save the world and then stabbing them in the back.

Lying, backstabbing, and kidnapping are not exactly heroic qualities.

I dunno, Superman used to do it quite a bit in the early days.

[Kevinroc]

They did leave him alone. And then he trashed Las Vegas.

Not true. They asked him to defuse a Gamma bomb that exploded in his face. Then he thrashed Las Vegas.

[CMBMOOL]

That's probably along the lines of a missed opportunity he had. When the Avengers were formed, they turned on Hulk pretty quickly. I'm sure Stark wonders from time to time, 'What if we hadn't jumped the gun?'

THat exactly what the Hulk thought of within World War Hulk Prolouge. :(

[StoneGold]

We already saw in the preview that Iron Man's little nanite injection doesn't work.

That's what I'm saying. They've cured the Hulk before. It never works. At best, it's a stopgap solution.

[Kevinroc]

I dunno, Superman used to do it quite a bit in the early days.

Superman used to let his friends dehydrate in the desert and make them fight for water.

[CMBMOOL]

Not true. They asked him to defuse a Gamma bomb that exploded in his face. Then he thrashed Las Vegas.

And he gotten into a fight with the Thing and the Human Torch when he wasn't in the right mind sight. :mad:

[Pendaran]

Now my concern is that if Reed could understand that Ben is happy as the Thing, then couldn't the same be said for the Hulk, because as Adamus Cho explained in #100 of the Incredible Hulk:


Except that Bruce isn't happy as the Hulk. Xavier determined that Banner would kill himself if he thought it would work. Peter David once wrote a story where Bruce actually did try to kill himself.

They could have just left him alone, I mean if Reed could see Ben be happy as the Thing, then maybe he could see Bruce having reach an agreement with the Hulk.

Seriously, it's the entire point of the character that Bruce doesn't want to be the Hulk. He's done everything up to seal himself in a cave.

They could have just left him alone

Leaving a guy alone who once tried to trash New York out of jealously seems recklessly irresponsible.

[Exo]

I believe Chuck was a combination of dead and/or powerless at the time. Besides that, mentally pacifying the Hulk is always an iffy option at best. Restraining the Hulk never works. He always ends up powering out of it somehow.

I know, I'm only reminded of the time Phoenix shut off Banner's mind during the end of Onslaught. Or when Doc Samson permanently separated the two way back in Incredible Hulk (can't remember which issue).

The point is Bendis needed a reason to exile the Hulk. Having 'no other options left' was needed here.

[StoneGold]

Not true. They asked him to defuse a Gamma bomb that exploded in his face. Then he thrashed Las Vegas.

Oops, guess it's been a while. Still, it does raise another problem. Which was kind of brought up when they exiled him in the first place. You can't just leave Hulk alone. Because even when Bruce was in self-exile, the need for human companionship brought him into civilization, where he Hulked out. The space exile, assuming it was as benevolent as the Illuminati said it was, just removed the temptation of civilization from Bruce.

[Pendaran]

I know, I'm only reminded of the time Phoenix shut off Banner's mind during the end of Onslaught. Or when Doc Samson permanently separated the two way back in Incredible Hulk (can't remember which the issue).


She actually only shut off the Banner part of his mind, that's been done before.

And separating the two resulted in the Mindless Hulk, who even before retcons canonically killed various and sundry innocent bystanders, so neither of those would really be something Xavier would want to approximate.

[Kevinroc]

Oops, guess it's been a while. Still, it does raise another problem. Which was kind of brought up when they exiled him in the first place. You can't just leave Hulk alone. Because even when Bruce was in self-exile, the need for human companionship brought him into civilization, where he Hulked out. The space exile, assuming it was as benevolent as the Illuminati said it was, just removed the temptation of civilization from Bruce.

Not exactly true. Someone asked Banner to come into town. He hulked out to stop a woman from being sexually assaulted. If Banner hadn't been pressured into going into town, he would have stayed at his little cabin.

[Pendaran]

Inhumans acting under Black Bolt's orders murdered innocent civillians including little children.

Actually no, Black Bolt's orders had nothing to do with Jolen's actions, that was noted a few times.

Reed Richards let Galactus live.

And allowed himself to be put on trial for it, despite knowing it was a sham trial, for which he was initially kidnapped to be placed under by authorities that had no legal right to do so.

And at the trial it was noted by Eternity that Galactus must exist as an underpinning force of the universe, or the universe will collapse on itself.

What gives them the right to make the tough decisions when their crimes have resulted in just as much if not more pain and loss than the Hulk's?

Outside of Stark, on whom it depends on one's reading of Civil War, you've so far listed a guy doing something that preserved the existance of the universe, and an Inhuman doing something that had nothing to do with Black Bolt's orders.

I'd actually say then ontop of that, Reed's decision to save Galactus ensured the continued existance of the universe, so, he decidedly made a tough decision that it was shown almost everyone else would have messed up.

[Exo]

She actually only shut off the Banner part of his mind, that's been done before.

And the same can't be said about the Hulk part? Just turn off his mind encapsule him within an iceblock and keep him on earth until a cure can be found.

And separating the two resulted in the Mindless Hulk

Who was just a beast. With Banner spared, there's really no need to have "it" wandering about. Send it out into space.

[Pendaran]

Because even when Bruce was in self-exile, the need for human companionship brought him into civilization, where he Hulked out.

Bruce has also shown that he'll willingly goad himself to a Hulk rampage over all of feeling that Betty is being macked on by Doc Samson.

There's also the problem that there's something like 6 different personalities inside his head, and several of them are homicidally insane and functionally evil, and various people are aware of that. I don't know that anyone would be reassured by the idea of leaving a crazy guy to himself and hoping that none of the bad personalities take hold one day.

[Syzygy]

The Hulk has been on trial at least twice before. In fact, Tony Stark freed him from his first one.

Why not give us a recap of this? Anyway, as I recall, after each pardon, Hulk goes on fresh rampages.....

Reed Richards let Galactus live.

Reed was put on trial for that and aquitted. It was revealed that if Galactus had permanently died, the universe would have ended.

Tony Stark has broken all kinds of laws to keep his identity secret, commit acts of terrorism, and suspend habeus corpus.

Yeah, Tony's done some bad things lately. No question. Still, I don't think that should prevent him from protecting people from the Hulk's rampages. And the only real way to do this is to exile him. He can't be killed, imprisoned, depowered, or reformed (because of his multiple personality disorder).

Inhumans acting under Black Bolt's orders murdered innocent civillians including little children.

Who says Black Bolt won't pay for this? He blundered in this regard in his Silent War, although it should be noted that the US government effectively declared war against Attilan by retaining the terrigen crystals. So the Inhumans were surely provoked here.

Also, it happened after Hulk's exile, and BB's orders were specifically NOT to harm anyone. Jolen, IIRC, disobeyed his mission commander, Gorgon, and acted on his own. Still, BB should have known better than to choose a hothead and send him on a boneheaded mission.

BB has indeed failed miserably in this regard. I suspect his time is fast approaching....

And all the Illuminati may be responsible for the deaths of millions on Sakaar.

We still don't know what happened with the ship explosion. If the Illuminati are revealed to be responsible, it will be a psychological blow from which they'll never recover.

What gives them the right to make the tough decisions when their crimes have resulted in just as much if not more pain and loss than the Hulk's?

Their motive was to protect the civilian population of Earth against the Hulk's rampages, since no one else could do it. As I see it, it's more a question of burden than of right. If I were a civilian in Marvel Earth, I'd surely want their protection against the Hulk and would support any action to that end.

[Pendaran]

And the same can't be said about the Hulk part? Just turn off his mind encapsule him within an iceblock and keep him on earth until a cure can be found.



Who was just a beast. With Banner spared, there's really no need to have "it" wandering about. Send it out into space.

Actually, no, it can't, the Hulk part has shown fairly disturbing resilience to mind powers. I'm sure Xavier could temporarily mess with it, if he had his powers, but permanent alteration seems to always fail.

[Pendaran]

Also, it happened after Hulk's exile, and BB's orders were specifically NOT to harm anyone. Jolen, IIRC, disobeyed his mission commander, Gorgon, and acted on his own. Still, BB should have known better than to choose a hothead and send him on a boneheaded mission.


Jolen really didn't seem that whacked out previous to this. About the worst thing he did was flirting with Crystal. I don't think there's much in the way of having been able to predict that he'd freak out like he did.

[Exo]

I'm sure Xavier could temporarily mess with it, if he had his powers, but permanent alteration seems to always fail.

Comicbook history, if there's such a thing, has shown that nothing can hold the Hulk permanently.

... Unless it's being reinforced with adamantium? :confused:

[ivesaidway2much]

Actually no, Black Bolt's orders had nothing to do with Jolen's actions, that was noted a few times.Black Bolt sent a pyschopath on a mission of war. The pyschopath, not surprisingly, acts like a pychopath and kills a bunch of people. But Black Bolt is somehow absolved because he couldn't be bothered to send non-pyschopaths on his mission.

And at the trial it was noted by Eternity that Galactus must exist as an underpinning force of the universe, or the universe will collapse on itself.

I'd actually say then ontop of that, Reed's decision to save Galactus ensured the continued existance of the universe, so, he decidedly made a tough decision that it was shown almost everyone else would have messed up.I consider this retconned by the fact that Galactus was depowered during JMS's FF run and the Marvel Universe didn't collapse on itself. Maybe Eternity should have checked his facts with the Living Tribunal or something.

[Pendaran]

Black Bolt sent a pyschopath on a mission of war. The pyschopath, not surprisingly, acts like a pychopath and kills a bunch of people. But Black Bolt is somehow absolved because he couldn't be bothered to send non-pyschopaths on his mission.


What exactly was there to indicate that Jolen would freak out like he did?



I consider this retconned by the fact that Galactus was depowered during JMS's FF run and the Marvel Universe didn't collapse on itself. Maybe Eternity should have checked his facts with the Living Tribunal or something.

Reed stated that what he did was only temporary, could only be temporary, and that Galactus' energies still existed and would inevitably eventually rejoin with him and restore him to his natural state regardless of anything they did, which they did, even despite mortal Galactus own efforts to prevent it. There was even a panel of them travelling through space to do so. So you can consider that retconned, but that's not even especially what occured. Unless you can find a bit that actually says Galactus is no longer an underpinning force of the universe, when even Annihilation once again said as much when the Heralds talked about why they worked for Galactus, no such retcon exists in comics.

Even the one time Galactus actually "died", he was in truth being incubated within Eternity so that he could be reborn.

[Pendaran]

Exactly, so restraint plans just wouldn't work.

[XPac]

Exactly, so restraint plans just wouldn't work.

Course, Mr. Futurist Stark didn't believe this would work either since he was already planning for the Hulks return.

But as Jen put it, it would be a very mad Hulk. So I'm not sure the Illuminati really did anyone any favors here.

[ivesaidway2much]

What exactly was there to indicate that Jolen would freak out like he did?How would I know? How many Inhumans comics have there been in the last 5 years? How many panels have actually featured Jolen? It's Black Bolt's responsibility to weed out pyshcos. Not dodge it after stuff goes wrong.

Reed stated that what he did was only temporary, could only be temporary, and that Galactus' energies still existed and would inevitably eventually rejoin with him and restore him to his natural state regardless of anything they did, which they did, even despite mortal Galactus own efforts to prevent it. There was even a panel of them travelling through space to do so. So you can consider that retconned, but that's not even especially what occured. Unless you can find a bit that actually says Galactus is no longer an underpinning force of the universe, when even Annihilation once again said as much when the Heralds talked about why they worked for Galactus, no such retcon exists in comics.

Even the one time Galactus actually "died", he was in truth being incubated within Eternity so that he could be reborn.Well if Galactus' energy is what is the underpinning force in the universe, since energy can't be destroyed anyway, I guess there is no problem in killing him. And apparently since according to you somewhere in the comic Reed says regardless of anything they did the energies would rejoin with Galen, I guess there is your explicit retcon. Since killing him would certainly be doing something to Galactus.

[Pendaran]

How would I know? How many Inhumans comics have there been in the last 5 years? How many panels have actually featured Jolen? It's Black Bolt's responsibility to weed out pyshcos. Not dodge it after stuff goes wrong.

On panel, as far as things done publicly that Bolt would plausibly know about, Jolen had previously done all of flirt with Crystal, and otherwise seemed entirely stable when he was around. That would then like blaming Black Bolt for not being omniscient. And being fair, flirting with Crystal isn't /exactly/ a sign of insanity, just really low standards.

Jolen's in fact done some dark, heinous things but they've generally been secretly concealed by Jolen, or secretly discussed with others. Bolt would need to run the equivalent of a telepathic police state to be aware of various of them, and that's more his evil insane brother's style.

Bolt's not telepathic, and the main telepaths in Attilan are tainted or insane. Jolen otherwise seems like a guy that has seemed stable, flirts with Crystal, helped rescue a kidnaped inhuman, and killed a contract killer that first shot him in the head and another Inhuman in the throat. None of that screams "will disobey royal orders to go on a kill crazy rampage."


Well if Galactus' energy is what is the underpinning force in the universe, since energy can't be destroyed anyway, I guess there is no problem in killing him. And apparently since according to you somewhere in the comic Reed says regardless of anything they did the energies would rejoin with Galen, I guess there is your explicit retcon. Since killing him would certainly be doing something to Galactus.

This just isn't what happens in comics. Galactus can be destroyed, and has been at several points in dire threat of such, well past what JMS wrote even. It's simply that his destruction carries dire consequences for the universe. His suffering enough damage to require incubation and rebirth allowed for the emergence of Abraxas, the force which his existance and universal role keeps in check, and the near ending of all reality, as one example. Energy can be entirely destroyed in the Marvel Universe and has been on numerous ocassions. Comics repeatedly show something else other than what you're talking about.

Your point was to say that Galactus being depowered shows otherwise, my response was that it's not as though Galactus or his energies were destroyed, they were only separated from each other, and it wasn't a permanent effect at that. He and his energies can certainly be killed. It's also telling that his power specifically returned to him to restore him to his role in the universe despite even his own tries to escape it doing so, as far as that he's as integral as the power he wields.

So where then is this retcon you're talking about being referred to? It's not in JMS' comics, and comics published after that have continued to refer to Galactus' feeding as being an integral natural process of the universe.

Everyone from Eternity to Odin have stated that Galactus must fill and perform his role within the universe, as part of the continuance of the universe, specifically Galactus himself, as the reborn last survivor of the universe that preceded this one. Even the Heralds that have turned on him to oppose him feeding on a particular planet acknowledge that the best they can try to do is steer him towards an uninhabited world, and that even then, such things won't always be suitable for Galactus. This has been repeated almost endlessly in comics for the past twenty years, well even into last year. And backed up with that when his universal role and existance were long term impaired, the universe was nearly ended by Abraxas, who Galactus' existance and what amount to his duties kept in cosmic check. That's just comic books and what has been published and written in them as opposed to just inferred.

A temporary separation from his power that doesn't actually long term impair him or his universal role really doesn't change that, and doesn't look like a retcon at all.

Is there some other instance you could refer to?

[IamtheRock3]

Agree. No remorse for the exile, just regret as to its necessity.

When they learn of the ship going nuke and killing a million people, however, there will be more than remorse. There will be guilt as deep as an ocean. How can they ever overcome something like that? It's a psychological death blow, and far worse than any mere physical beating.


kind of hurt the futurist thing



Here why I dont buy they had to do cause he a monster


Lets look at the illumantie

Prof X- Turn into onslaught actull caused a lot of innocent death, putting bad guys on his team protecting them, hoping they stay straigh. Only for them to turn bad again. His involvment in the vulcan thing

Iron man- Drunkiness endanger lives, weapons keep falling into wrong hands. Let not forget the teen iron man thing

Namor- his constant attacking on us Surface dweller, some justified some not

Black bolt- currenty at war with us huamns

So together, or sometime alone These guys caused more innocent Death then the hulk EVER did

let there not launch into space

[Syzygy]

How would I know? How many Inhumans comics have there been in the last 5 years? How many panels have actually featured Jolen? It's Black Bolt's responsibility to weed out pyshcos. Not dodge it after stuff goes wrong.

I have to agree with you on this. It's BB's responsibility to know whether or not someone he sends on a delicate mission is psychologically well suited for it. No buck-passing here.

The burden is on BB accurately appraise the psychological well-suitedness of his emissaries. How he does it is his problem -- that's the burden of leadership -- but if he makes a gross mistake, he has to take the blame.

[Pendaran]

Prof X- Turn into onslaught actull caused a lot of innocent death, putting bad guys on his team protecting them, hoping they stay straigh. Only for them to turn bad again. His involvment in the vulcan thing

Turning into Onslaught required the unique circumstance of his having telepathically shut down Magneto, who had just promised to kill 10,000 humans for every one mutant that dies of the mutant created legacy virus, and seemed to have just murdered Wolverine. It's not like Xavier does that every day. And he was also placed into government custody afterwards.

Iron man- Drunkiness endanger lives, weapons keep falling into wrong hands. Let not forget the teen iron man thing

Tony's actually at least tried to stop his weapons from falling into the wrong hands, that's not the same as actively going on a rampage in New York because you're jealous Captain America joined the Avengers.

The Teen Tony thing has also basically been excised from continuity since Heroes Return. Note Tony, not Teen Tony anymore.

Namor- his constant attacking on us Surface dweller, some justified some not

Namor is the guy who said that the Hulk being a monster and killing people doesn't matter and that he shouldn't be exiled. That you note he himself repeatedly causes mass death and floods continents helps out how well the people who /did/ argue for exiling the Hulk look.

Black bolt- currenty at war with us huamns


The US took the one thing that gives them enough power not to be Kree chattel slaves and is refusing to give it back. I'd think that might do things like result in a state of war.

So together, or sometime alone These guys caused more innocent Death then the hulk EVER did


They actually haven't, the only person you've shown in this list that caused mass innocent death through their own willful intent is Namor, and he argued /against/ exiling the Hulk.

Even Immortus controlled Tony Stark only killed about one or two people, which before recent retcons, means he caused /as much/ innocent death as the Hulk has, assuming you don't count the mindless Hulk, the times Hulk has attempted to commit murder but been stopped, the time someone just noted where the Hulk nearly killed a plane full of people, or recent retcons.

[Pendaran]

I have to agree with you on this. It's BB's responsibility to know whether or not someone he sends on a delicate mission is psychologically well suited for it. No buck-passing here.

The burden is on BB accurately appraise the psychological well-suitedness of his emissaries. How he does it is his problem -- that's the burden of leadership -- but if he makes a gross mistake, he has to take the blame.

I'd ask how he's supposed to know. He wouldnt, without ruling a telepathic police state, have techniques for this anywhere beyond what anyone can mundanely do as far as psych checks for an organization. And those themselves are far from catch all.

[Kefky]

First, they haven't shown any regret because this was something that happened in a special issue, not in any of the ongoing titles. Thus, none of the writers really care about what happened there, or to show any repercussions of it, because it's not their responsibility.

Second, what's this about the Illuminati lying in the tape? Are you talking about Fury being an LMD?

[IamtheRock3]

yes but why arent they launching namor into space and doing stuff like that. They had him on the team. Still hypocrittical, they were hoping namor would go along with it.

[Pendaran]

I'd imagine because King Namor is the only thing that makes for Atlantis invading only every 5 years or so, as opposed to constantly. Shooting him into space accomplishes nothing. His nation is still there to send out the tidal waves and giant monsters and armies of superstrength fellows with relatively high tech weapons. He's the only thing approaching a moderating force in Atlantis.

[Sean Whitmore]

yes but why arent they launching namor into space and doing stuff like that.

I'd imagine because King Namor is the only thing that makes for Atlantis invading only every 5 years or so, as opposed to constantly.

Exactly.

That and how long has it been since Namor attacked the surface world? Twenty years? (Or whatever that is to them)


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Course, Mr. Futurist Stark didn't believe this would work either since he was already planning for the Hulks return.

There's the trouble with too many cooks in the kitchen.


SEAN

[Kevinroc]

There's the trouble with too many cooks in the kitchen.


SEAN

Well, that explains why Tony wasn't showing any remorse. He knew The Hulk would be home in time for the annual Avengers Thanksgiving celebration.

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, that explains why Tony wasn't showing any remorse. He knew The Hulk would be home in time for the annual Avengers Thanksgiving celebration.

I figure Tony is like Mr. Burns from that one episode of Simpsons. He's actually feeling guilty over so many things that the remorse is all crammed together in a corridor and can't reach his brain. So in a way, he's the happiest guy alive. :D


SEAN

[Kevinroc]

I figure Tony is like Mr. Burns from that one episode of Simpsons. He's actually feeling guilty over so many things that the remorse is all crammed together in a corridor and can't reach his brain. So in a way, he's the happiest guy alive. :D


SEAN

You don't wanna see the plan Tony concocted for blocking out the sun.

:D

[beetheb]

You don't wanna see the plan Tony concocted for blocking out the sun.

:D

Yeah, now I'm just wondering if Tony's gonna release The Hulk dogs with Hulk bee's in their mouths on ol' Holku, and when they bark they shoot Hulk bee's at him...

[Kevinroc]

Tony: Hhmm... who's that goat-legged fellow? I like the cut of his jib.

Jarvis: Er, Prince of Darkness, sir. He's your eleven o'clock.

[Xanrn]

The Hulk has no rights.

The Hulk is a thing.

The Hulk is a walking talking cancerous tumour.

Bruce is the only one that should matter.

They apologised to Bruce, screw the Hulk.

[Kevinroc]

The Hulk has no rights.

The Hulk is a thing.

The Hulk is a walking talking cancerous tumour.

Bruce is the only one that should matter.

They apologised to Bruce, screw the Hulk.

Well, we all know that founding Avengers get no respect from Tony Stark. You think Hulk's gonna have words with Tony at the annual Avengers Thanksgiving celebration? You should see what Thor's gonna do.

[Sean Whitmore]

They apologised to Bruce, screw the Hulk.

Bruce was actually okay with it, unless I'm misremembering the Giant-Size special.


SEAN

[Pendaran]

Bruce was actually okay with it, unless I'm misremembering the Giant-Size special.


Bruce was actually okay with it, yeah.

[Black Atom]

It does seem like a douchebag thing to do, especially considering that Stark has very recently come up with a device that inhibits the powers of gamma-powered supers. It makes me think they came up with the Illuminati came up with the easiest solution possible.

[IamtheRock3]

Exactly.

That and how long has it been since Namor attacked the surface world? Twenty years? (Or whatever that is to them)


SEAN

and how often does Hulk attack UNPROVOKED

just as often as namor

In fact back in the day Hulk spent most his time in the desert and would leap out of a city when a fight happen to fight in a desert

something even other heroes didnt do

[StoneGold]

It does seem like a douchebag thing to do, especially considering that Stark has very recently come up with a device that inhibits the powers of gamma-powered supers. It makes me think they came up with the Illuminati came up with the easiest solution possible.

Except the thing doesn't work. Within one issue, it was broken. So yeah, let's rely on that.

[StoneGold]

Not exactly true. Someone asked Banner to come into town. He hulked out to stop a woman from being sexually assaulted. If Banner hadn't been pressured into going into town, he would have stayed at his little cabin.

OK, but Banner still went to town. Because he felt the need for companionship. Take away the town, no more temptation.

[Sean Whitmore]

and how often does Hulk attack UNPROVOKED

just as often as namor

What? No.
And what do you consider provoked, anyway? Somebody stepping on Banner's toe?


SEAN

[drwho]

Hulk is a killer. why show remorse to a killer?

[BYC]

Namor's situation is different from Hulk's. Namor is a king of an entire civilization. You can't exile or kill or otherwise harm him without Atlantis declaring war on the surface world and cause untold millions of death and property damage. It's very simple, Namor is useful and necessary in the minds of the superhero popular and probably SHIELD and the world governments.

This part of the story is not too different from real life. If a person has a useful skill, the rules are bend to allow for that. Remember Dennis Rodman? Michael Jordan himself allowed Rodman to be on that team because Rodman was very good at basketball.

There was nothing else to try with Hulk, so they did what they thought was right. Not to mention, being a comic book story, the writers did something that they know will spark interest.

[dreyga2000]

Peronally I don't think Bruce Banner would have a problem with being in space.... Correct me if I'm wrong but back when i read the Hulk Bruce always considered Hulk a curse and even attempted sucide just to rid himself of the monster (hence the birth of the Abmination)... After all his attmepts failed he instead forced himself into isolation in order to not cause damage as Hulk...

With Hulk being in place where he could no longer hurt anyone.... I servely doubt Bruce Banner would be angry at the Illimanati's actions

P.S. Has Banner even appeared during Planet Hulk to voice his opinion....

[Pendaran]

and how often does Hulk attack UNPROVOKED

just as often as namor

In fact back in the day Hulk spent most his time in the desert and would leap out of a city when a fight happen to fight in a desert

something even other heroes didnt do

Again, that's just not so. Especially that back in the day thing. The Hulk fought plenty of times in cities and attempted to reach them. You yourself once noted in a post reading various instances where the Hulk flipped out on very little provocation.

Back in the day the Hulk attacked New York because Cap made him jealous. Back in the day he nearly cacked a plane full of people that the FF barely rescued, as someone else noted in their own posts on the thread.

Back in something like.. the very first day, the Hulk was intent on killing the human race with the Toad Men's weapons (or at least he thought he could) but got blown up before anything could come of it.

especially considering that Stark has very recently come up with a device that inhibits the powers of gamma-powered supers. It makes me think they came up with the Illuminati came up with the easiest solution possible.

Stark didn't come up with it on his own, it required resources he couldn't normally ever expect to have. As he normally doesn't have all of SHIELD at his disposal for months on end to work on something. Beyond that, it seems largely like an insufficient idea of Tony's thats not going to work, when you notice that it's not like Reed has put his own seal of approval on the thing as far as his personal notation of having tried and failed to come up with cures for the Hulk for years.

[Pendaran]

P.S. Has Banner even appeared during Planet Hulk to voice his opinion....

Yeah, in the Giant Sized special, to agree with what the Illuminati did.

[dabig2]

What? No.
And what do you consider provoked, anyway? Somebody stepping on Banner's toe?

A combination of that and missiles in the butt or bullets bouncing off the chest or tanks running on ya.

I think the main debate here is that was it their right to send the current Hulk, the one who was willingly doing a civic service by protecting lives from a terrorist bomb, which unfortunately had to be a gamma bomb, be the ultimate deciding factor in his exile because he "can't control it" and that he's a "monster".

And I'd say no. The Vegas incident can be trumped up to a form of unwilling psychosis with a temporary altering of psychoactive chemicals in the brain. In other words, to me it's like sending high-class super-beings away every time the Purple Man is set loose because they might be compromised and be set loose. He's not more bound to run into cosmic manipulation and exploding gamma bombs than Iron Man is going to run into cosmic manipulation or Ultron or Sue Richards is going to run into someone like Psycho-Man again.

That Hulk that knocked the airjet out of the sky on accident was not the Hulk that they sent away either. That Hulk has been subdued for a long while now..mostly (damn retconned Bruce Jones era). He was more like the one that saved the airliner by absorbing the full impact of the ground collision with his own body to save them after the altercation with Mr. Hyde on it or the one that goes on missions to save the world from potential doomsday devices like Shield's satellite of merry surprises. The Hulk that tore up the FF and Avengers because he was pissed at Rick jones....well my only defense is how long ago was that? Was that too, the same Hulk we've seen mostly during this modern era of comics?

I stress time because I wholly believe in "redemption". Pretty much all of the Hulk's grievances can be put into the distant past category or cosmically manipulated. He's been forgiven for most of them actually, only then to reappear as a monster because of manipulative tampering. A lot has happened to both his persona and his actions since the early times where he was the grayvage ass or the petulant child Hulk. And those manifestations wasn't (err, weren't) the Hulk they judged and condemned there.

[spidarwin]

Yes, b/c he's a monster. What were they gonna do...ask him nicely? Arrest him. Say they do all that, put him on trial and find him guilty...you really think he's gonna let them touch him?

A position generally considered opposite that of the one which you quote in your .sig file :)


I appreciate irony as well.

[Mike Smash!]

Hulk is a killer. why show remorse to a killer?Because he's not a killer?

We've gone over this more than once.

[Kefky]

I don't really think it's fair to use the nanities against the Illuminati. Bendis didn't know about it when he was writing the special, and it's clearly stated there they've tried absolutely everything to cure him over the years, and sending him to a place where nobody'd bother him was the only thing left they could think of doing.


Yea, but that's really not gonna stop you guys, is it? :p

[Pendaran]

It's actually that the notation from the comic was that Reed has constantly tried and failed, and well, Reed's a far superior genius to Tony. It's not like Reed is anywhere around this particular effort, which we know is going to crap out anyway. Perhaps if Reed was around, he could tell Tony that.

Currently though, he's on Titan with his wife. Which makes me wonder if WWH is going to acknowledge that, though considering that Fantastic Four doesn't tie in and has a completely separate plotline with the Frightful Four going on at the same time, I think the mini is just going to handwave that Reed's on Earth anywho.

[Brian M.]

A position generally considered opposite that of the one which you quote in your .sig file :)


I appreciate irony as well.

Kinda hard to apply real world logic to comic book characters.

[DattaBoy]

I too am in the position to say that Hulk got what he deserved; he's a dangerous threat and he is very selfish and unpredictable any hero in the MU who thinks otherwise including Jen is off their rockers. Another thing why does Jen consider Hulk her cousin anyway?

I mean come on if all he wants to do is be left alone then why come back to Earth to wage war. I mean hes a King now his people have been decimated through no fault of their own(yes I know Hulk does not know that yet). He should be worried about rebuilding instead of revenge. Besides it his fault he ended up on the planet in the first place with his little temper tantrum that threw his pod off course. I mean if he hadnt done that then maybe he could be chilling on some tranquil planet minding his own business. Say what you will about Tony Stark he maybe a villian to some but at least his willing to put aside his personal goals and feeling for the greater good through questionable means; The Hulk on the other hand is just about to be 100% evil if he goes through with his plan and even more of jerk for putting his people in danger.

[drupgyu]

I too am in the position to say that Hulk got what he deserved; he's a dangerous threat and he is very selfish and unpredictable any hero in the MU who thinks otherwise including Jen is off their rockers. Another thing why does Jen consider Hulk her cousin anyway?

I mean come on if all he wants to do is be left alone then why come back to Earth to wage war. I mean hes a King now his people have been decimated through no fault of their own(yes I know Hulk does not know that yet). He should be worried about rebuilding instead of revenge. Besides it his fault he ended up on the planet in the first place with his little temper tantrum that threw his pod off course. I mean if he hadnt done that then maybe he could be chilling on some tranquil planet minding his own business. Say what you will about Tony Stark he maybe a villian to some but at least his willing to put aside his personal goals and feeling for the greater good through questionable means; The Hulk on the other hand is just about to be 100% evil if he goes through with his plan and even more of jerk for putting his people in danger.

Because Jen Walters and Bruce Banner are blood cousins...

[StoneGold]

It's actually that the notation from the comic was that Reed has constantly tried and failed, and well, Reed's a far superior genius to Tony. It's not like Reed is anywhere around this particular effort, which we know is going to crap out anyway. Perhaps if Reed was around, he could tell Tony that.

Currently though, he's on Titan with his wife. Which makes me wonder if WWH is going to acknowledge that, though considering that Fantastic Four doesn't tie in and has a completely separate plotline with the Frightful Four going on at the same time, I think the mini is just going to handwave that Reed's on Earth anywho.

Probably not, as the vacation time looks about to wrap up anyways.

[Omega Alpha]

Again why should Tony/Blackbolt/Xavier (though he wasn't involved) feel any disgust when they're not emotionally attached to the Hulk? Tony could have and probably felt sympathy for the big ogre. But disgust by sending him to, what he thought was, paradise planet?

Well, Xavier is the one who took Sabretooth into his home and knows a few things about being feared and hated...

Sold out what principles? About exiling people? Hell, that's Plan A for Strange. Got a problem? Banish it. As for Reed, Hulk's just lucky Reed didn't try something wacky like hypnotizing him into thinking he was a cow. Black Bolt's done the occasional kingly banishment, IIRC.


Truth is, the one guy who should have been all over this is Namor. He loves banishing, and he hates the Hulk. Really, if Reed hadn't brought it up first, Namor would have been all "Any way we can toss the Hulk into a black hole?" But because Reed brought it up, Namor has to get all debate-y. Because that's the kind of jerkoff Namor is.


Namor wasn't against it because he knew Hulk would be back eventually and would kick the asses of all of them. Is curious that so far Bendis has written Namor as being the most pragmatic one on the group, both in the special and in the mini.

I don't recall Ben Grimm going on regular rampages where he wantonly destroys private and government property while endangering the lives of the general populace.

The Thing is a credit to the Marvel Universe. The Hulk on the other hand is largely a menace that occassionally does something productive. He's like a tidal wave to Ben Grimm's fireboat - sometimes he puts out a forest fire in the area he innundates, but most of the time the damage is entirely unproductive. On the other hand, Grimm might be ugly but he does a great deal of public service with minimal side effects.

Why would Richards feel bad about stopping Tidal waves?


The Hulk OCCASIONALLY does something productive? You mean, except for the times he kicked Abomination's ass, stopped the leader from conquering the world, saved all the heroes by holding a mountain with his own hands, etc? Even as Joe Fixit, who was very nasty, he hasn't done as much questionable things as Namor, Black Bolt, Xavier or Stark. And all his mindless rampages were caused by external factors, usually when someone is mind-controlling him or Bruce and the Hulk personalities have been completely separated.

Hulk is a killer. why show remorse to a killer?

Wolverine killed hundreds or thousands of people more than Hulk, goes into berserk rages more often than Hulk goes in mindless rampages, without needing any external factors influencing it. And, while he was and is certainly important to them, most of the time he has saved the world was as an X-man, while the Hulk almost always did it alone. Why not exile Logan instead?

And let's not even begin with people like Sabretooth or Abomination. And with the fact that, well, the Hulk is not a killer.

[DattaBoy]

Because Jen Walters and Bruce Banner are blood cousins...

Yeah I know Jen and Bruce are Blood cousins but the Hulk isnt Bruce so why should she consider him; her cosin as well. As a matter of fact the Hulk hates Bruce if anything she should understand why the he would want to be left alone and I why Bruce would have wanted to go Reeds orginal destination. I mean she has got to be the most naive person around; thinking the Hulk isnt responsible for any deaths she almost deserves getting depowered by Stark.

[Mike Smash!]

I mean come on if all he wants to do is be left alone then why come back to Earth to wage war. I mean hes a King now his people have been decimated through no fault of their own(yes I know Hulk does not know that yet)..He was leaving people alone. He was doing it in Alaska when they shot him into space.

Like through the character's entire history, he's rarely if ever the aggressor. His kingdom was wiped out by the Illuminati's shuttle. Millions were killed by it and there is no definitive evidence, yet, but I suspect at the end, the Illuminati will be at least partially responsible for what happened. I think that Reed set the shuttle to self destruct after learning from Cho that Hulk was on the wrong planet and fearing that he'd return. I don't believe that Reed and the others in doing so intended to kill anyone, or had any idea that Sakaar was populated and so fragile.

He was a king whose people were wiped out and he was leaving Earth alone, until Earth destroyed his world, his wife and his people. He's retaliating, not mindlessly attacking people.

But your argument is pretty weak. He's not attacking unprovoked. He's striking back at what he sees as an attempt to kill him. Hulk's largely a non-interventionist, not a pacifist. He leaves people alone until they mess with him. Then he gives back what he got.

[Mike Smash!]

Yeah I know Jen and Bruce are Blood cousins but the Hulk isnt Bruce so why should she consider him; her cosin as well. As a matter of fact the Hulk hates Bruce if anything she should understand why the he would want to be left alone and I why Bruce would have wanted to go Reeds orginal destination. I mean she has got to be the most naive person around; thinking the Hulk isnt responsible for any deaths she almost deserves getting depowered by Stark.Because for decades, the comics, especially Hulk comics, made it explicitly clear that Hulk didn't kill people during his occasional rampages -- which he was usually set on after being provoked, attack or tricked by an outside force.

And again, if we're going to force stark realism on the Marvel Universe, I would imagine that far more people have died in the crossfire of Avengers battles with Kang or Ultron in the middle of Manhattan than during Hulk rampages -- which historically mostly happened in the middle of the desert.

[XPac]

The best sollution really is to just try and leave Hulk alone. It's understandable that many might not consider it a perfect sollution... but really NOTHING else has proven to be a better one.

And I think most would agree that regardless of the harm he has caused, the good he's done far out weights the bad. That doesn't necessarily erase all the harm he's caused... but again, there's no perfect sollution. And thus far, leaving him alone to the greatest possible extent has worked better than almost anything else.

[CMBMOOL]

Namor wasn't against it because he knew Hulk would be back eventually and would kick the asses of all of them. Is curious that so far Bendis has written Namor as being the most pragmatic one on the group, both in the special and in the mini.




Wolverine killed hundreds or thousands of people more than Hulk, goes into berserk rages more often than Hulk goes in mindless rampages, without needing any external factors influencing it. And, while he was and is certainly important to them, most of the time he has saved the world was as an X-man, while the Hulk almost always did it alone. Why not exile Logan instead?

And let's not even begin with people like Sabretooth or Abomination. And with the fact that, well, the Hulk is not a killer.



May be deep Down Namor DOES care about the Hulk but refuse to acknowledge it. :D


Also about your point on Wolverine, I hoping that Logan will cover that point within either WWH: X-men or the main series, and also I could see that as a bit of a reason for Wolverine to Join the Hulk's side of the war.

[tjarvis]

May be deep Down Namor DOES care about the Hulk but refuse to acknowledge it. :D


Also about your point on Wolverine, I hoping that Logan will cover that point within either WWH: X-men or the main series, and also I could see that as a bit of a reason for Wolverine to Join the Hulk's side of the war.

The Hulk is coming for Xavier, the one man Logan cares about more than anyone else, and to do it, the Hulk is going to be ripping apart a school filled with mutant children

Logan may understand what the Hulk is feeling, but after all that, there's no way in hell he does anything but to try and take the Hulk's head off of his shoulders.

[CMBMOOL]

Yeah I know Jen and Bruce are Blood cousins but the Hulk isnt Bruce so why should she consider him; her cosin as well. As a matter of fact the Hulk hates Bruce if anything she should understand why the he would want to be left alone and I why Bruce would have wanted to go Reeds orginal destination. I mean she has got to be the most naive person around; thinking the Hulk isnt responsible for any deaths she almost deserves getting depowered by Stark.



Maybe she would also like to learn the Hulk's side of the tale, I mean she only know part of the Reason the Hulk is attacking, but not the whole story ? :(

[CMBMOOL]

The Hulk is coming for Xavier, the one man Logan cares about more than anyone else, and to do it, the Hulk is going to be ripping apart a school filled with mutant children

Logan may understand what the Hulk is feeling, but after all that, there's no way in hell he does anything but to try and take the Hulk's head off of his shoulders.

I don't get it What you are trying to state ? :confused:

[Mike Smash!]

May be deep Down Namor DOES care about the Hulk but refuse to acknowledge it. :DDoes Namor ever acknowledge that he likes anyone? :)

[DattaBoy]

He was leaving people alone. He was doing it in Alaska when they shot him into space.

Like through the character's entire history, he's rarely if ever the aggressor. His kingdom was wiped out by the Illuminati's shuttle. Millions were killed by it and there is no definitive evidence, yet, but I suspect at the end, the Illuminati will be at least partially responsible for what happened. I think that Reed set the shuttle to self destruct after learning from Cho that Hulk was on the wrong planet and fearing that he'd return. I don't believe that Reed and the others in doing so intended to kill anyone, or had any idea that Sakaar was populated and so fragile.

He was a king whose people were wiped out and he was leaving Earth alone, until Earth destroyed his world, his wife and his people. He's retaliating, not mindlessly attacking people.

But your argument is pretty weak. He's not attacking unprovoked. He's striking back at what he sees as an attempt to kill him. Hulk's largely a non-interventionist, not a pacifist. He leaves people alone until they mess with him. Then he gives back what he got.

Yes, I understand that Hulk was already in Alaska minding his own business but he has history of being manipulated by people,things, or emotions and usually results in him coming back and wrecking something,someone, or someplace and even though he is some of the time in the right it usually ends up with him looking bad because of the destruction he caused. So no matter what he comes back hes like a force of nature just with a really bad temper tantrum; he had to be neutralized.

Okay if your king and 99.9% of your population is destroyed in an attack whether accidental or on purpose and your first response is to attack without gathering any facts or securing and rebuiling your people like Hulk did then your a bad selfish leader. I mean seriously revenge should be the first thing on his mind but he should no better then to act on it like a good leader/king would.


Because for decades, the comics, especially Hulk comics, made it explicitly clear that Hulk didn't kill people during his occasional rampages -- which he was usually set on after being provoked, attack or tricked by an outside force.

And again, if we're going to force stark realism on the Marvel Universe, I would imagine that far more people have died in the crossfire of Avengers battles with Kang or Ultron in the middle of Manhattan than during Hulk rampages -- which historically mostly happened in the middle of the desert.

So if doesnt kill it is okay for him to cause lots of property damage and injuries just because he had a bad day. And then he just jumps away when there is nothing else left to smash? I mean has the Hulk(not Bruce Bannet) ever taken responisibilty for his own actions; has ever helped rebuild a town he helped smash? And since it has been been established that when he rampaged in Las Vegas they were up to 400 casulities if I remember correctly. Has he ever said sorry for that? I am sorry but to most MU heros and civilians the Hulk seems like a big jerk.

Okay, The Avengers are heros trying to stop a bad guy and they normally evacuate an area before or during a fight. To the civilians the Hulk is the bad guy. And once again I must refrence Las Vegas.

Maybe, I really dont get Hulk at this point as I do Bruce Banner. I mean Hulk says humans never gave him a chance; well maybe they would if he wouldnt call them puny. Besides that he's had plenty and I mean plenty of oppurtunities to gain goodwill he jst never built on it examples includ his time in the Avengers. Matter of Fact I have to wonder would the Hulk have saved the heros in Secret War if he wasnt under the mountain with them or would he have just stood by and watched if he wasnt in danger himself?

[Pendaran]

So if doesnt kill it is okay for him to cause lots of property damage and injuries just because he had a bad day. And then he just jumps away when there is nothing else left to smash?

According to recent retcons and upcoming comics, he actually has killed and gotten people killed, as far as the points you're noting.

Yes, I understand that Hulk was already in Alaska minding his own business but he has history of being manipulated by people,things, or emotions and usually results in him coming back and wrecking something,someone, or someplace and even though he is some of the time in the right it usually ends up with him looking bad because of the destruction he caused. So no matter what he comes back hes like a force of nature just with a really bad temper tantrum; he had to be neutralized.

Actually, ontop of that, on several cases the Hulk has emerged of his own violition to mess around with things, whether from Bruce Banner's lonliness, or jealously felt towards Captain America. Bruce once turned himself back into the Hulk because he thought Doc Samson was scoring romance points with Betty.

And since it has been been established that when he rampaged in Las Vegas they were up to 400 casulities if I remember correctly. Has he ever said sorry for that? I am sorry but to most MU heros and civilians the Hulk seems like a big jerk.

23 dead in Vegas, though he'd been hit with a gamma bomb before hand that messed him up. He does have some rampages in New York and LA that were done on nothing but his own spite though.

Okay, The Avengers are heros trying to stop a bad guy and they normally evacuate an area before or during a fight.

It would be more the point that the Hulk is the only character to have it retroactively applied to him that his fights get people killed. Upcoming comics will be showcasing that as well. And in actual past comics, his fights have gotten people killed. The Avengers have had no such thing applied to them as far as their past fights, demands for realism on them nonwithstanding, so it can't be said that they've been getting people killed at all as far as things they've done in the past.

It's been more to the point shown that by contrast, groups like the Avengers actually care about such things as far as causing collateral damage, whereas the Hulk has on panel mocked a plane of people about to die.

[Mike Smash!]

Yes, I understand that Hulk was already in Alaska minding his own business but he has history of being manipulated by people,things, or emotions and usually results in him coming back and wrecking something,someone, or someplace and even though he is some of the time in the right it usually ends up with him looking bad because of the destruction he caused. So no matter what he comes back hes like a force of nature just with a really bad temper tantrum; he had to be neutralized.He was "neutralized". He was living in a remote location so that he wouldn't cause any property damage. Even the Hulk was okay with that.

It was Fury/the Illuminati that pulled him out of that situation, got him to save their asses (and the worlds') and then stabbed him in the back.

Not to mention that despite his tantrums, he's saved the world at least as many times as the Avengers or the FF.

Okay if your king and 99.9% of your population is destroyed in an attack whether accidental or on purpose and your first response is to attack without gathering any facts or securing and rebuiling your people like Hulk did then your a bad selfish leader. I mean seriously revenge should be the first thing on his mind but he should no better then to act on it like a good leader/king would. How clearly do you think when 99.9% of your people are killed. I never said that he was morally perfect, I just said he was understandable and given his history with all of these characters, it's a rational conclusion.

So if doesnt kill it is okay for him to cause lots of property damage and injuries just because he had a bad day. A bad day is a good way of saying that he was attacked, provoked, attacked by another hero misunderstanding him, getting shot at or attacked by law enforcement or the military.

Not to mention all of the times, that a "cure" by Reed or Samson backfires and makes the Hulk lose control. It's worth pointing out that both times the Hulk devolved into the murderous "Mindless Hulk" it was after having his mind or body separated from Banner -- first by Samson and then again by Strange.

Again, superhero battles cause plenty of property damage, which is why Damage Control exists. The difference is that the Hulk incarnations that do go on rampages have the mind of the child and can't be held to the same rational standard that people like the Avengers do when they throw down in the middle of Manhattan.

You'd think if the Avengers cared about casualities, they'd try to take the battle out of the city. Hell, the battle at the end of Civil War was more destructive than a Hulk rampage and Cloak teleported a battle that included Hercules, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Sentry and the Human Torch into the middle of a heavily populated area, where both sides started blasting the crap out of each other and punching each other through buildings.

It wasn't until rescue workers tackled Cap that anyone seemed to care about the damage they were doing.

And since it has been been established that when he rampaged in Las Vegas they were up to 400 casulities if I remember correctly. Has he ever said sorry for that? I am sorry but to most MU heros and civilians the Hulk seems like a big jerk.When he was in Vegas, he had been driven crazy by exposure to another Gamma bomb and being attacked by the FF.

And to the rest of the Marvel heroes, the X-Men seemed like jerks for the longest time, usually getting into public battles and running away when the cops came. Not everyone has the Avengers' PR.

Okay, The Avengers are heros trying to stop a bad guy and they normally evacuate an area before or during a fight. To the civilians the Hulk is the bad guy. And once again I must refrence Las Vegas.And again, in Vegas, the Hulk was driven crazy by an outside force. How many times have we seen heroes like Superman and others get mind controlled and go nuts? And didn't Wolverine recently get brainwashed and kill a bunch of people? What about all of the people that Bucky killed as the Winter Solider?

More than the Hulk ever killed directly.

Maybe, I really dont get Hulk at this point as I do Bruce Banner. I mean Hulk says humans never gave him a chance; well maybe they would if he wouldnt call them puny. When people don't immediate treat the Hulk like a monster, they get his friendship. The history of the character is full of young outcasts and random folks who treated the Hulk well and with kindness and were repaid with a friend that was ready to die for them. Rick Jones, Jim Wilson and others gave him a chance.

The Hulk also had a good relationship with the Defenders when they treated him well.

But considering how easily people jump to conclusions with the guy -- like the Hulk tries to help an injured child and a "hero" shows up and says something like "Put down the kid, Hulk, or I'll make you put them down!" or simply attacks him on sight... or when a villain impersonates the Hulk and his teammates immediately turn on him without hesitation and say things like "I KNEW you were no good!"... or when they constantly lie to him, manipulate him, mock him.... and then come crawling to him for help only to call him a monster again....

....he's got a good reason to distrust people and hate them.

So given that track record, it's a little surprising how many people demand he give the benefit of the doubt to people who've never really done that for him.

Besides that he's had plenty and I mean plenty of oppurtunities to gain goodwill he jst never built on it examples includ his time in the Avengers. Matter of Fact I have to wonder would the Hulk have saved the heros in Secret War if he wasnt under the mountain with them or would he have just stood by and watched if he wasnt in danger himself?But the Hulk wasn't really in danger. He could have punched his own way out and killed others in the process, but he didn't.

But again, you're making the same judgements of him that other heroes do, and that's the reason he doesn't like humans.

[Mike Smash!]

23 dead in Vegas, though he'd been hit with a gamma bomb before hand that messed him up. He does have some rampages in New York and LA that were done on nothing but his own spite though.Name them.

He usually has extenuating circumstances, like being manipulated by Nightmare, separated from his mind by Strange or Samson or being tricked or mind controlled.

[Syzygy]

I'd ask how he's supposed to know.

Actually, I'd argue that it's BB's responsibility to be sure of each person he sends on such an important mission, that if he's not sure he shouldn't send that person, and if he was sure of Jolen he made a mistake for which he has to take responsibility.

However, I'll play as you requested:

Karnak.

He asks Karnak (presumably in sign language, or whatever) if he thinks Gorgon and his team can carry out the mission as BB has conceived it. Karnak scrutinizes each member of the away team (there are only four). And, of course, Jolen's failings in this context become readily apparent as perceived flaws and weaknesses. Karnak recommends Jolen is out, and BB gives the thumbs down.

I suspect there are other ways BB might have known. Presumably, Jolen's easy contempt for human life is a sentiment he's expressed in discussion at state dinners and in casual conversation, for example. In any event, the point is moot, since BB has Karnak.

[Lord Darkwolf]

Okay if your king and 99.9% of your population is destroyed in an attack whether accidental or on purpose and your first response is to attack without gathering any facts or securing and rebuiling your people like Hulk did then your a bad selfish leader. I mean seriously revenge should be the first thing on his mind but he should no better then to act on it like a good leader/king would. Actually revenge wasn't the first thing on his mind . Sitting by his dead wife's ashes mourning was. It was his Warbound Elloe that suggested the Earth smashing .




So if doesnt kill it is okay for him to cause lots of property damage and injuries just because he had a bad day. And then he just jumps away when there is nothing else left to smash? I mean has the Hulk(not Bruce Bannet) ever taken responisibilty for his own actions; has ever helped rebuild a town he helped smash? And since it has been been established that when he rampaged in Las Vegas they were up to 400 casulities if I remember correctly. Has he ever said sorry for that? I am sorry but to most MU heros and civilians the Hulk seems like a big jerk.

Yes he has taken note of his actions AND offered to help rebuild ...... here is the punchline ON SAKARR who people didn't chase him away after the smashing was done . Even then Hulk ( not Bruce) feared he would screw it up because of his past. Turns out he needn't have worried .

Okay, The Avengers are heros trying to stop a bad guy and they normally evacuate an area before or during a fight. To the civilians the Hulk is the bad guy. And once again I must refrence Las Vegas.



You keep bringing up vegas one time that has been repeatily said was not his fault .

[Omega Alpha]

Does Namor ever acknowledge that he likes anyone? :)

He sure acknowledges that he likes Sue:D


And no one of those Hulk bashers answered me about Wolverine so far. Or Abomination, for that matter.

[Sean Whitmore]

And no one of those Hulk bashers answered me about Wolverine so far. Or Abomination, for that matter.

It might be because they're not sure which argument you're making. "No, Hulk's not a killer", or "Yeah, Hulk may have killed, but Sabretooth has killed way more".


SEAN

[Pendaran]

Name them.

He usually has extenuating circumstances, like being manipulated by Nightmare, separated from his mind by Strange or Samson or being tricked or mind controlled.

One of his New York rampages came of being angry at Captain America's inclusion into the Avengers. Triggered by reading a newspaper clipping that says that Captain America has joined the Avengers. He was otherwise in his hidden underground cave in the desert where he could otherwise be left alone.

Response of Hulk to reading this? He specifically travels across the d