Downloading Comics

[phillcalle]

First, I don't download comics because I don't really know how, and I wouldn't want to read them on my computer screen anyway. But I do something similar: a couple of times a month I go to my local Borders/Barnes & Noble and sit down and read graphic novels, stacks of them. Most of them I enjoy, but I only buy the very few that are so great that I can't live without them.

I don't see a big difference between myself and the downloader, except that what the downloader does is illegal. But the other part of the argument (the more important part)--that the downloader is a parasite, enjoying the fruits of the artist's labor without payment applies to me too. In fact, one could argue that I'm worse than a downloader: When I take a stack of graphic novels to a chair to read, those graphic novels are, for the time being, near-impossible for others to find.

The truth is, if I couldn't sit and read those graphic novels, I still wouldn't buy them. I would likely still buy a few based on past preferences and reviews, similar to the way in which I buy prose novels or non-fiction (which I also preview at the bookstore, but don't finish because they take too long).

I wonder: Are the downloaders similar? I suspect that they are. In other words, every downloaded comic is not a lost sale; instead it's just a browser who might decide to buy the physical copy or not.

[outlander78]

Steve, Dan or anyone else who works in the industry, do you know why there isn't an iTunes store for comics yet?

I stopped buying comics a year ago - they cost too much in Canada and are too hard to buy locally. I don't download them, though it is extremely tempting. If I could buy Marvel and DC comics (especially back issues) at a reasonable price online I would happily do so. Why won't they set up a store and take my money?

I would greatly appreciate answers, as I have been yearning for years now to be able to buy and legally download comics online, as I do musical tracks, and find the lack of options frustrating. As I read newspapers, blogs and other content online every day I doubt that reading comics in a digital form would be any less satisfying (and they would be a lot easier to store!).

thanks,
Andrew

[Inkthinker]

I don't know if anyone's really put down a method for selling comics iTunes-style

I tell you this, though... when they do, they MUST recognize that people will not pay print prices, or even close to print prices, for the online version. Try to sell me an online version of a comic for $2.99, and you can kiss my hairy white ass all the way to Pirate Bay.

Personally, I'd like to see someone take the approach that comics used to cost 10¢, and they can again.

Okay, maybe not 10¢, but I think 99¢ is the top end of the envelope right now (barring further inflation in the near future). I remember buying Transformers for 75¢, and even 35¢ and 50¢ models could work well, depending on how many pages are provided.

I'd say an additional incentive would be to offer more pages that you get for print. For instance... I'd buy all the X-books in digital format once a month, if I could do it for, say, $5.99 at MOST. That's give that if I wanted the same in print, I'd pay out something like $20 a month (how many X-books are out now?).

HOWEVER, if you can set up a model that, say, downloads a series of pages, in a good format that not only allows the page to fill screen well but to possibly even print to paper (watermark it unobtrusively), and is viewable via mutiple programs (do NOT go with proprietary readers, let people decide for themselves if they want to read their comics with Irfanview or MS Picture or whatever pleases the consumer), then I think there's a very good possiblity for an online digital comics store to be a viable marketing model. And for the love of god, make the files permanent. None of this "you stop buying, then the stuff you bought is useless" bullshit.

There will continue to be bootlegging. People will pay 99¢ for your comic and then the little bastards will turn right around and torrent it. You can't really prevent that at this time, but you CAN do things to cover your ass and make it more difficult, and at the same time recognize that there IS a market for people who WANT to legitimately purchase comics online, just as there is a legitimate model for people to purchase music online. But it's not the same as the print model, and neither should it be.

[MichaelMogg]

First, I don't download comics because I don't really know how, and I wouldn't want to read them on my computer screen anyway. But I do something similar: a couple of times a month I go to my local Borders/Barnes & Noble and sit down and read graphic novels, stacks of them. Most of them I enjoy, but I only buy the very few that are so great that I can't live without them.

I don't see a big difference between myself and the downloader, except that what the downloader does is illegal. But the other part of the argument (the more important part)--that the downloader is a parasite, enjoying the fruits of the artist's labor without payment applies to me too. In fact, one could argue that I'm worse than a downloader: When I take a stack of graphic novels to a chair to read, those graphic novels are, for the time being, near-impossible for others to find.

The truth is, if I couldn't sit and read those graphic novels, I still wouldn't buy them. I would likely still buy a few based on past preferences and reviews, similar to the way in which I buy prose novels or non-fiction (which I also preview at the bookstore, but don't finish because they take too long).

I wonder: Are the downloaders similar? I suspect that they are. In other words, every downloaded comic is not a lost sale; instead it's just a browser who might decide to buy the physical copy or not.

Thank you, thank you, Thank you!

In the Digital Comics thread, this was the point I was consistently trying to make, but the anti-downloaders wouldn't have it.

They will tell you the difference between you and downloading is that downloading is on a much larger scale. Also, some downloaders will never buy a comic.

[NatGertler]

Steve, Dan or anyone else who works in the industry, do you know why there isn't an iTunes store for comics yet?There certainly are legal pay-for-download sites covering the work of multiple publishers -- drivethrucomics.com for example.

However, they don't have Marvel or DC, although there is reason to believe that both of those companies are considering doing their own sites. However, there are reasons why it hasn't happened instantly. Not only does it cost to put together and run a website, but it also puts the publishers into strong competition with their main customers, the comic book stores, who at the very least would not be happy to be competing with their supplier offering the same content at 1/3 the price. And while comic stores sales have been growing nicely of late, diverting some of those sales to the downloads could endanger some of those shops and thus the financial base of the publishing efforts. (It's not surprising that Top Cow is limiting the downloads they sell to material at least a year old.)

[Steven Grant]

Steve, Dan or anyone else who works in the industry, do you know why there isn't an iTunes store for comics yet?

Apple, if they've even thought of it, probably doubts there's enough money in it to make it worthwhile...

- Grant

[mattx110]

i don't even like to work digitally to make comics...
converting to .Tifs to send to a printer is a sad necessity in my opinion.

and yea, i've got nothing published so i can just work all physical and worry about distribution when i do something i feel is worth selling. i love alex maleev, but i don't think i ever want to use photoshop to anything but scan a file.
so reading comics on a computer is just... yuck.
i like paper, and i think those archive Cd-roms marvel released are a good thing, but whether it's legal or not, i'm not getting involved.

[the goddamn batman]

First, I don't download comics because I don't really know how, and I wouldn't want to read them on my computer screen anyway. But I do something similar: a couple of times a month I go to my local Borders/Barnes & Noble and sit down and read graphic novels, stacks of them. Most of them I enjoy, but I only buy the very few that are so great that I can't live without them.

I don't see a big difference between myself and the downloader, except that what the downloader does is illegal. But the other part of the argument (the more important part)--that the downloader is a parasite, enjoying the fruits of the artist's labor without payment applies to me too. In fact, one could argue that I'm worse than a downloader: When I take a stack of graphic novels to a chair to read, those graphic novels are, for the time being, near-impossible for others to find.

The truth is, if I couldn't sit and read those graphic novels, I still wouldn't buy them. I would likely still buy a few based on past preferences and reviews, similar to the way in which I buy prose novels or non-fiction (which I also preview at the bookstore, but don't finish because they take too long).

I wonder: Are the downloaders similar? I suspect that they are. In other words, every downloaded comic is not a lost sale; instead it's just a browser who might decide to buy the physical copy or not.


I'm a little late to the party but, you sir, are the same as a downloader.

You know what dude, you want to read books and not pay for them? It's called the fucking library!;)

[Percival]

Borders has got it all-over a library. Their chairs are a lot more comfortable, they have a much better selection and they are way more current. You can go in buy yourself a latte or frapaccino grab a stack of the latest comics and read, read, read.... In fact you could probably save more money on an hourly basis by not buying the comics you are reading than the entire staff of the store earns in their minimum wage paychecks.

[bartl]

I'm a little late to the party but, you sir, are the same as a downloader.

You know what dude, you want to read books and not pay for them? It's called the fucking library!;)
Places like Barnes & Noble and Borders WANT people to sit down and read books there. The deals they get from the publishers allow them to have very comfortable profit margins, and they negotiate great buy-back deals (very often, B&N, Borders, and Amazon can buy out the entire run of a new book; they wait 4 weeks, and then send back the unsold copies, which is when the independent bookstores get a crack at them).

Barnes & Nobles and Borders are working hard to drive the independent seller out of business. They can afford to sell books at the independent's cost or less, and still make a profit. So, when they move into a neighborhood, the see what the independents are selling, and give an extra discount on those books. (By the way, these practices are illegal, but very hard to prove in court).

Independent bookstores cannot afford to be libraries. So the big stores, by making themselves open to people using them as libraries, ensure that when they do buy a book, that book comes from them. And it keeps people away from the independent bookstores.

So don't worry about Barnes & Nobles or Borders if someone reads a book as if they are a library; that's their INTENTION.

[bartl]

In fact you could probably save more money on an hourly basis by not buying the comics you are reading than the entire staff of the store earns in their minimum wage paychecks.
Borders and Barnes & Nobles both pay better than minimum wage. However, they do require that their employees know how to read, write, and speak English.

[mikefalcon]

Borders has got it all-over a library. Their chairs are a lot more comfortable, they have a much better selection and they are way more current. You can go in buy yourself a latte or frapaccino grab a stack of the latest comics and read, read, read.... In fact you could probably save more money on an hourly basis by not buying the comics you are reading than the entire staff of the store earns in their minimum wage paychecks.
Of course, with a library, you can sign out the books and take them home and read them on your comfy sofa.

I really don't understand why downloading comics is even a problem. Why does ANYONE want to read comics on a screen??!

[MichaelMogg]

Of course, with a library, you can sign out the books and take them home and read them on your comfy sofa.

I really don't understand why downloading comics is even a problem. Why does ANYONE want to read comics on a screen??!

Just because you cannot understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Can you understand why anyone would want to watch a movie on an ipod?! :confused: Yet, everyone and their grandmother has one.

Reading comics on my laptop is really an enjoyable experience. I can hold thousands of them on it at any one time, and take it pretty much anywhere. The fact that you are looking at a screen is no different from watching a video, or reading an article (which I actually find harder on the eyes).

[badMike]

Can you understand why anyone would want to watch a movie on an ipod?! :confused: Yet, everyone and their grandmother has one.I don't have an ipod and I don't understand why someone would want to watch movies on one.

[outlander78]

A DVD-R can hold roughly 4813 MB. Any idea how big a scanned comic is? Divide 4813 by that number and that how much content you can put on a DVD-R.

Next, consider that a comic long box can hold approximately 300 comics. If a scanned comic is less than 16 MB in size, that means that a DVD-R can hold more comics than a long box.

So, a notebook with a DVD-R inside can likely hold long box worth of comics.

I have many technical texts on my notebook (they are called Red Books, are quite legal and sourced from IBM) and find that reading them is not quite as nice as a printed text, but for the limited amount of time I use them as a reference printing them out is not a good use of paper.

Also, think about portable music players - the music quality of a standard 128 kb/s song is not quite as good as that of a CD, but it is "good enough" and is immensely popular.

Comics on a notebook screen, if cheaper and easier to store, are the same. I hope that helps you understand the mindset, even if it does not appeal to you (as watching movies on a tiny screen does not appeal to me).

edit: As comics wouldn't fit on an iPod's screen easily, I don't expect Apple to put them in the iTunes Store any time soon - there is no business case. I would like to see a very similar set up however - almost all the pieces are already in place.

[Percival]

If you had read the followup colomn, you would have noticed an email from a man in asia who said exactly the oposite. He can't see why anyone would want to deal with the paper and ink version. Of course he is a tablet-pc user, and that makes all the difference. As a tablet owner, I can tell you that nothing compares to the convenience of having thousands of files literally at the tip of your finger with just a couple taps on the screen. I can see where the desktop people would find it inconvenient, because of course you are tied to your desk. but with a tablet, you have an object roughly the same size as a magazine (though a bit heavier) that you can hold as you would a book in your favorite lounge chair, lying in bed or on the couch, even sitting under a tree in the great outdoors. As Steve pointed out, tablets have had a hard time breaking into the market, but one universal aspect of them is that those who own them love them.

[dancj]

I don't have an ipod and I don't understand why someone would want to watch movies on one.
I've watched a trailer on one and despite my initial scepticism I have to say that the picture is so crisp on those things that I think I could very easily watch and enjoy a film on an iPod

[Ender]

Just a few random thoughts about torrenting books.

Are the forums of CBR and Newsarama doing harm to the industry? Economics had forced me to drop 52 a few weeks back. No big deal because I can just look for the handy weekly *SPOILER* thread and get the boiled down version. This too has cost DC the price of the book.

Further with respect to Slott, I follow She Hulk by reading my friends copy. I am a fan of the book but at the same time am I actively hurting its sales? Yes. But will I find objections to this? Not likely.

And anyone that hops in here and say that I'm the same as a full time downloader is just exagerating to make their point. Even the most anti-downloader I'm sure flips through numerous books at their LCS. I see a lot of people that buy one book and keep track of dozens.

I have seen many cool early sneak peaks on Newsarama and CBR that have made me say "I can't wait to get this." not "I can't wait to torrent this." But I know there are people that do have the latter reaction and I submit that that person would not have bought the book anyway. Torrents make interest easy and convenient.

[superfriend]

Maybe this will flip some wigs. I started up a comic book reading club at my local library. There's about 11 of us. All long-time readers but don't really want to pay for them for all the logical and probably illogical reasons listed throughout this debate.

So we struck a bargain with the library system that they sub the series we want them to. They already subscribed to some series but we primarily decide which ones are to be selected for the purposes of the club.

We're up to 20 subs now. Once the subs have arrived we convene and divy up the issues by consensus and go our separate ways--yes, you can check out single issue comic books from my library.

Once we've read our copies, we come together, give brief reviews and trade issues. Rinse and repeat.

Once everyone has read each issue, we come together, compare notes and vote on the status quo or if someone wants to change a pick or two. Invariably someone introduces a new issues or series from time to time that they've experimented with of their own personal funds but the library also does a good job of stocking trades when they come available as well so we can consume that way as well. We're like the Shadow, except hardly any comics escape our sight.

As far as browsing and using the library, they have a centralized database located online. One can log in with their library card number and a PIN #. Once inside the system, you can search by author, title, key words in title, etc.

Once a selection is found, it can be tagged for reserve and put in someone's "queue". You can see how many reservations are before you and as time goes on, after you. You can also select it be delivered to "your" library that is pre-selected with your profile (or you can choose from a drop-down menu).

The selection is statewide. "Hello Wisconsin!"

Once the book, comic, TP, DVD, CD, software, Playstation 2 game (you see where I'm going with this?) arrives at your home library, you can be notified by mail, email or phone. I opt for email.

I always check email as it's a standard means of communication these days so I always get the notices. I can also view my queue to see how things are progressing at any time. I can remove items, or renew an item already checked out (if there is a hold, it will not allow a renewal). And get this, each library in the state sets it's own rules and the one I use has no late dues. Of course, I do my best to honor this and am pretty good as this is a fantastic motivator for good behavior and churn is pretty quick so it must not be just me.

Once the email comes in that I've got a hold waiting, I drop on by the library, check the shelf (organized in alphabetical order) and self-check out on one of the many machines available. No fuss, no muss.

So I basically have a very healthy comic reading habit without paying a dime. I try my best to assume my operating costs for maintaining a habit personally and give charitably to my local library but if I was paying full price, I'd probably just go buy the comics myself.

Recently I've just read through Ex Machina Vol 1-5 (great series by Brian K. Vaughan) as well Pride of Baghdad and just swapped Avengers: The Initiative #1 with a fellow clubber for Immortal Iron Fist #4. Oh, I'm also going through Koike's Samurai Executioner. Great stuff.

It may not be bit-torrent but it's definitely sharing, and I've got the physical books in my hand, it's perfectly legal, and it's absolutely free. The library pays for one copy but you have 11 people benefitting from it.

One of the biggest reasons for this is my local comic shop dropped it's 10% discount on new comics on Wednesday. They got a fancy new POS setup and besides charging full price they also charge sales tax. Everything is cheaper than this place. So I figure, since my budget can't abide this habit anyway, I might as well see how cheaply and legally I can do it.

Of course, not all library systems are this together. And if this goes away, I really don't have any intention of buying comics anymore. That ship has sailed. But if I can read comics, books; watch DVDs and play PS2 games...for free. Why not?

[Lester C.]

Part of the reason why I gave up comics was due to lack of space. I would love to buy legal downloadable comics. I would even pay for price for each issue.

[xarathos]

It will pretty sad when you'll have to have a computer to get most anything it seems. How can people sit in front a computer all day if they weren't getting paid for it? I just don't get it.

THe bottom line is, people won't be buying comics, they'll be downloading them for free like they do with music and to a lesser extent movies. There's no collectability in downloading comics which means it will be the end.

And worse yet, where will I work?

[Laminator_X]

For me, it's simply about money.

When I can afford it, I buy every comic I want to read. When times are good I spend $40-$80/month on comics and trades. When times are lean, I cut back to $10-$15 for a few must-haves and BT the rest so as to not loose track of the ongoing story lines. When business picks up again, so does my comics budget (along with savings and everything else) and I come back to the books I've been infringing. Out of the thousands of dollars I'm spending over my lifetime of fandom the industry can spare me infringing here and there when I'm short.

Currently my circumstance is extreme. I'm laid up in bed with three limbs in casts and a mountain of medical bills. I can't spend any money needlessly at the moment, and I'm grateful for the kind folks who let me beam comics to my laptop here in my sick-bed. The next few months will be more bearable for it.

Is it legal? Clearly not. Is it ethical? That's a much more complex question. Ultimately we must each draw our own lines between principle and pragmatism.

Later this year, when I can work again, you'll see me back at my LCS.

[badMike]

yes, you can check out single issue comic books from my library.Wow, that's really interesting. The club sounds like a great idea.

The selection is statewide. "Hello Wisconsin!"Los Angeles has a very similar system as you describe, e.g. putting holds online, getting email notifications, having books shipped to your local branch, etc. Except, it's only citywide. However, it's a pretty good city system. I haven't ordered GNs yet using it, as my branch seems to get new ones somewhat regularly. (Just read Avengers: Disassembled. Man, did that suck.)

[Mo S.]

I use downloads as previews, especially for older comics. I downloaded the Crossgen catalog, skimmed a couple issues and decided El Cazador, Way of the Rat, Negation and Ruse were worth tracking down and that Sojurn and a couple of others were not for me. I downloaded most of Hellblazer and skimmed through those before deciding I wanted the Ellis, Azzarello and Carey runs and not the Ennis runs. Ditto the WildStorm catalog, which led me to purchasing the trades of StormWatch, WildCATS and Authority, and skipped Deathblow and Wetworks entirely. Most of those trades (well, maybe not the Hellblazer trades) are not available in stores, except by order.

I also downloaded the entire Avengers and Fantastic Four runs, but then I also bought the DVDs when Marvel released them, because they were reasonably priced and Marvel deserved the support. I'll do the same thing for Captain America and Iron Man when they release them. $40 for 500 comics, especially when a lot of the titles from the 60s are high dollar items to collectors but not worthwhile to casual readers, is a great deal.

I do think there is an aspect of the companies (especially Marvel) pricing themselves such that readers feel like buying comics is not a good value, especially in crossovers. There is currently a download of Civil War-related titles available that is something like 105 comics. This is the entire crossover collection. To buy those at cover price, and allegedly get the "whole" story, it'd be about $300. I doubt there are many people to whom the story is worth $300. Personally, I bought the main issues, about 2/3 of Front Line before I decided I really disliked the comic, the Captain America tie-ins, the Iron Man tie-ins and the She-Hulk tie-ins (the last three because those are all on my regular pull list). Even at that I felt that the reading value wasn't there. I kept up with Spidey and FF on the internet, as I'm less interested in the characters than I was the CW-related events.

[cfutino]

It will pretty sad when you'll have to have a computer to get most anything it seems.


No, it won't. Geting pretty much all you need without leaving home would be sweet. It would mean more time to actually enjoy the things I bought.


How can people sit in front a computer all day if they weren't getting paid for it? I just don't get it.


If you've got good selling systems you won't be needing to "sit in front a computer all day". In fact, I lose much less time buying something when I do it on-line then when I go to a shop (not talking 'bout comics, but to buying in general). And the comics don't need to be read on a computer. There are Tablet PCs and portable readers.


THe bottom line is, people won't be buying comics, they'll be downloading them for free like they do with music and to a lesser extent movies.


A lot of people do buy music on-line. Ever herad of I-Tunes?


There's no collectability in downloading comics which means it will be the end.


The end of what? Collectors? Maybe, but I highly doubt that an eventual move to digital will end the fisical copies for good. I'm thinking they'll publish both. Readers? Not at all, they'll be reading on their portable readers/tablet PCs.


And worse yet, where will I work?
I assume you work at a comic shop. Well, TV didn't kill movie theaters. Nor did VCR, nor DVD. Of course, they had to adapt to a new reallity, but they're still around. If your comic shop can adapt to an eventual change, it will survive.