Xmen: The End: For those who didn't like it.

[Nachturne]

Rather than going into a thread that's clearly for those who enjoyed the series and derailing it, I made a new one for those of us who didn't enjoy the series, because I would like to discuss this/find out why people didn't like it.

Personally, I found the entire thing confusing and convoluted as hell. And some of the things made NO sense. How did Nightscrawler get married to Kymri? And isn't she...essentially...him? From another Universe? And they had a son and named him TJ....wtf??

On to: Gambit. Sinisters son? Third Summers brother?? WTF! Awful. Awful awful awful. And his kids names where..guhhhhh Luc-Jean?? LUC-JEAN??

I have many more complaints, Nocturne's portrayal, etc. But mainly the whole thing just confused me. It just seemed needlessly confusing and difficult.

Care to share?

[mimic_616]

Rather than going into a thread that's clearly for those who enjoyed the series and derailing it, I made a new one for those of us who didn't enjoy the series, because I would like to discuss this/find out why people didn't like it.

Personally, I found the entire thing confusing and convoluted as hell. And some of the things made NO sense. How did Nightscrawler get married to Kymri? And isn't she...essentially...him? From another Universe? And they had a son and named him TJ....wtf??

On to: Gambit. Sinisters son? Third Summers brother?? WTF! Awful. Awful awful awful. And his kids names where..guhhhhh Luc-Jean?? LUC-JEAN??

I have many more complaints, Nocturne's portrayal, etc. But mainly the whole thing just confused me. It just seemed needlessly confusing and difficult.

Care to share?

Yup, it was terrible! Infact I only read the first volume and gave up soon after. I never thought writing could be so bad.

[Gene M.]

Yeah. It was crap on a stick. An totally convoluted, incoherent, unreadble mess of a book. There's no way it warranted 18 issues. I dropped it after 9 because nothing interesting happened. It was like Claremont had a checklist of every X-Character ever and he was trying to make sure he crammed every last one of them into the book. Is the final fate of Shatterstar really so important that it needs to be included? No. It's not. Awful, awful comic.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Personally, I found the entire thing confusing and convoluted as hell.[./QUOTE]

How much X-Men continuity have you read, out of curiousity? This does require some prior knowledge to get the most out of it.

[QUOTE=Nachturne;4596215]And some of the things made NO sense. How did Nightscrawler get married to Kymri? And isn't she...essentially...him? From another Universe?

Not specifically, no. It's never been stated she is, despite certain physical similarity. As for how did she get to 616? well she was here in 2000. She turned up in Uncanny as one of Tullamore Vogue's hounds.

And they had a son and named him TJ....wtf??

Althought it didn't stand for Talia Josephine, mind. What's wrong with that?

Gambit. Sinisters son?

Not son. Partial Clone. It's these clone bodies which Sinister had been using in order to appear to be living that long...

Third Summers brother??

Not exactly genetic gestalt of several mutant energy signatures. A gebetic engineering project to make a perfect specemin - as Sinister has always done.

And his kids names where..guhhhhh Luc-Jean?? LUC-JEAN??

They're French names. So what. It's like French for Luke John.

I have many more complaints, Nocturne's portrayal, etc.

What portrayal, exactly? She was a hound for the first part and then in a coma for most of the rest of it. Come on... ;)

But mainly the whole thing just confused me. It just seemed needlessly confusing and difficult.

Only if you'd never read any of the plot threads it was tying up.

[Nachturne]

Hey, dude, why did you post in here?? I titled this specifically and made this thread so we don't derail yours. I expected the same curtosy.

[TinMan]

Hey, dude, why did you post in here?? I titled this specifically and made this thread so we don't derail yours. I expected the same curtosy.

You're gonna get yourself banned again. Starting a bashing thread isn't cool, which is exactly what you've done here and then commenting on someone that is conversating about your unfounded points is extremely childish.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Hey, dude, why did you post in here?? I titled this specifically and made this thread so we don't derail yours. I expected the same curtosy.

I was only doing it because you seemed confused, and I felt I could answer those questions.

Plus the concept of a thread of pure hate only, does seems a bit... daft. No?

[Cayman]

It had some good moments now and again, but otherwise, what Gene said.

[Nachturne]

I was only doing it because you seemed confused, and I felt I could answer those questions.

Plus the concept of a thread of pure hate only, does seems a bit... daft. No?

It's not hate. It's critique. I gave valid reasons for not liking it. As you gave your reasons for liking it in your thread. Whats the difference between having a thread dedicating to praising something than critiquing it?

and I didn't have questions. They were observations and why I didn't like it. Luc-Jean is stupid because Remy's father is named Jean-Luc and it's a really dumb "lets switch the names around! He named him after his dad! aww" crap. It made no sense.

But please, you have your thread to play in, I have mine. We dont need this to degrade the way the parody thread did.

[Nyssane]

The only reason to read X-Men: The End? Because Frenzy was in it. Too bad she sucked major butt and couldn't even defeat a Skrull-Genesis.

[Beast]

I was only doing it because you seemed confused, and I felt I could answer those questions.

Plus the concept of a thread of pure hate only, does seems a bit... daft. No?
Not to mention the two threads will end up merged in the end anyway.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

It's not hate. It's critique. I gave valid reasons for not liking it. As you gave your reasons for liking it in your thread. Whats the difference between having a thread dedicating to praising something than critiquing it?

Because purely by doing so you're creating a division. It's unnecesary.

[Brian M.]

Disagreeing with the work is fine, it's how some folks go about expressing their disagreement. This could have easily happened in the thread already started.

[Cayman]

The Gambit part probably was the worst part of the trilogy. Gah.

The best part was the Polaris made it through most of it.

[Nachturne]

I guess it's a no win then? I try to make this seperate so I your thread doesn't get derailed, and instead you guys come in and tell me I should have just gone in and derailed your thread, at which time I would just be written off as a basher. Which, I think everyone needs a definition of "basher":

"The End was terrible. I didn't enjoy what they did with Gambit, and I thought it could have been handled far better. I mean, Sinister as his father? How does that make any sense?" = Critique

"ZOMGGGGZZ CLAREMONT SUCKZZZZ" = Bashing

So...you see...I am not, and have never been a basher. I'm sick and tired of everyone crying bashing when anything remotely critiquing of Clarmeont comes up. The man is not above critique.

[Nachturne]

The Gambit part probably was the worst part of the trilogy. Gah.


Agreed. I honestly don't see WHAT the point of making him a clone of Sinister blah blah all that. The character has enough of a convoluted background as it is, being an ancient prophecy of two guilds blah blah. Why convolute it more by making him a clone/genetic experiment?? Can't ANY of the Xmen just have been the result of a broken condom in the back of a 79 Camaro?

[TinMan]

I guess it's a no win then? I try to make this seperate so I your thread doesn't get derailed, and instead you guys come in and tell me I should have just gone in and derailed your thread, at which time I would just be written off as a basher. Which, I think everyone needs a definition of "basher":

What part of a conversation is derailing? You're making NO sense. Message boards are here so people can conversate about particular subjects. Going into that thread and saying, "I disagree, I found *insert plot points here* to not make any sense and overall I just didn't enjoy it", is NOT derailing the thread, it's conversating.

I think your banning spooked you a bit to much.

[Beast]

I guess it's a no win then? I try to make this seperate so I your thread doesn't get derailed, and instead you guys come in and tell me I should have just gone in and derailed your thread, at which time I would just be written off as a basher. Which, I think everyone needs a definition of "basher":

"The End was terrible. I didn't enjoy what they did with Gambit, and I thought it could have been handled far better. I mean, Sinister as his father? How does that make any sense?" = Critique

"ZOMGGGGZZ CLAREMONT SUCKZZZZ" = Bashing

So...you see...I am not, and have never been a basher. I'm sick and tired of everyone crying bashing when anything remotely critiquing of Clarmeont comes up. The man is not above critique.
My guess would be, that the very idea of a thread dedicated to just discussion of "What you don't like" doesn't lead to much discussion. The other thread wasn't titled "Praise Only" or what have you. Where as this one was designed simply as a place to discuss dislike of said storyline. Where as joining in on an already created thread and offering your critiques would at least lead to back and forth discussion from both parties. Those who enjoyed the storyline, certain parts of the storyline, or didn't. It is after all a discussion board. When there's no alternate viewpoints, discussion becomes stale and uninteresting. And much like life, it abhors a vacuum.

[Nachturne]

I think your banning spooked you a bit to much.

Spooked? No. More I'm sick and tired of trying to "discuss" when anything I say is just "BASHHHHHHING!". It's gotten tired and old, so I made a thread where I thought the people who generally like Claremont could overlook and not worry about their talk of how great The End was, and the people who don't like it can talk without being accused of bashing. But, obviously, that's not the case.

WHY?? WHY would you come in here if not to troll?? This thread is called "The End: For those who don't like it". You have a thread for if you do like it, so why even come in here? Unless to pick a fight that I am SO trying to avoid by making this thread in the first place.

That being said, can we stay on topic? Please everyone share the reasons why you don't like Xmen: The End.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

X-men the end doesnt warrant a positive or negative reaction

It just exists. It's the beige of the comic world.

[Beast]

X-men the end doesnt warrant a positive or negative reaction

It just exists. It's the beige of the comic world.
Dazzler was looking good in it though. Love her costume and lasering a hole in Cassie's head.

[ImpulseUCF]

Where as joining in on an already created thread and offering your critiques would at least lead to back and forth discussion from both parties. Those who enjoyed the storyline, certain parts of the storyline, or didn't. It is after all a discussion board. When there's no alternate viewpoints, discussion becomes stale and uninteresting. And much like life, it abhors a vacuum.The problem, I think, stems from the fact that every single time in the short week or so I've been on CBR that any of "us" who come into pre-existing threads to critique Claremont's work or offer the points we didn't like, we are labeled as "bashers," "haters," senseless, hopeless cases who only complain, etc.

Rather than be subject to flaming and baiting, Nachturne created a place for a dissenting viewpoint to exist outside of the people who loved it precisely to avoid the libel, flame-baiting and inaccurate "basher" accusations.

Similar to how we were accused of derailing the Nocturne thread just to bash Claremont instead of letting all the people who wanted to talk about how cool she is talk about her. Funnily, people wanted to talk about her soooo much before that we had to create the thread. Funny, that.

[jarrod]

Well largely, presentation is key. Not all who harshly critique Claremont are put down as senseless "bashers" or "haters". Maybe you just need work on your delivery and language a bit? ;)

[ImpulseUCF]

Well largely, presentation is key. Not all who harshly critique Claremont are put down as senseless "bashers" or "haters". Maybe you just need work on your delivery and language a bit? ;)I agree that presentation is key. Anyone who has actually read my posts will be able to see my critiques are always insightful, based on textual citations and supporting evidence, and could not be called bashing by a long shot.

[Flight]

LOLz~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Since "you" lot came to the board, things have been unamusing and mostly 4% faggier~!!!!!!~

WHAT WOULD YOUR FUTURE WIVVES HAVE U SAY ABOUT BASHING X-MEN: THE END!!!~~~

[Brian M.]

The thing is the thread that was started up was not meant to be just a "those who like" type place. Come in, discuss why you did or didn't like it.

[jarrod]

I agree that presentation is key. Anyone who has actually read my posts will be able to see my critiques are always insightful, based on textual citations and supporting evidence, and could not be called bashing by a long shot.
Well, I'd agree actually, I think your posts are excellently supported and your discussion more than reasonable. Same can't be said for all such "Claremont Critiquers" though, and your "us versus them" delineation certainly doesn't help matters. Making wide catching accusations usually leads to wide catching arguments, try to be more careful when throwing around these sorts of notions.

Now lets wait for the Dazzlettes to swarm and beat me with the hypocrisy stick. :D

[Nachturne]

Can we stop derailing the thread???

[Flight]

Can we stop derailing the thread??? http://www.cherwell.org/files/winner.jpg

Calm down dear!

[jarrod]

How exactly does one derail a conceptually hollow and ultimately puroseless thread? Call it daddy?

[Cayman]

Aaliyah was an especially noxious character who hopefully will never somehow slip their way into the mainstream MU.

[ImpulseUCF]

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7103/ccohcomeonbs7.jpg

[DHX]

http://www.cherwell.org/files/winner.jpg

Calm down dear!

okay i think i'm in love with flight.


someone hold me!


on topic from the issues i did get the thing i couldnt stand was sean chens art.

[Nachturne]

Just pointing out that it's interesting a thread made with the purpose of not derailing another thread gets derailed by the people who's thread I was attempting not to derail :D. Nice double standard we have running here, darlings. Moving on. Can we stay on topic??

[ImpulseUCF]

How exactly does one derail a conceptually hollow and ultimately puroseless thread? Call it daddy?The purpose seems pretty clear. It's no more hollow than anything else with supported evidence.

[Nachturne]

Aaliyah was an especially noxious character who hopefully will never somehow slip their way into the mainstream MU.

Agreed. I didn't get her at all. So Bishop and Whats-her-face-Shi'ar boinked and had a kid? Why? How? And she started the series and it seemed like she'd be who the story's eyes were told, but there was all this other stuff going on, some of which never even reached any resolution.

[DHX]

Just pointing out that it's interesting a thread made with the purpose of not derailing another thread gets derailed by the people who's thread I was attempting not to derail :D. Nice double standard we have running here, darlings. Moving on. Can we stay on topic??

what i don't get is why YOU believe that stating your dislike of xmen the end will cause a thread to derail?

[Flight]

Just pointing out that it's interesting a thread made with the purpose of not derailing another thread gets derailed by the people who's thread I was attempting not to derail :D. Nice double standard we have running here, darlings. Moving on. Can we stay on topic?? Well, to be honest, apart in your LESS THAN COOL AS Nocturne (NOCTURNE?????????) thread, all you've done since you've signed up is BITCH, BITCH, BITCH about Claremont, anything he's wrote, that old lady who sells him his morning newspaper, his favourite crayon color and his dog!!
Either post something positive for a change, SHUT your FACE or be prepared for a barrage of complaints from posters who know the system!!!!

[ImpulseUCF]

what i don't get is why YOU believe that stating your dislike of xmen the end will cause a thread to derail?Cuz it's happened 3 times in 10 days, maybe? :p

And Flight, what is "the system"

[Zombienorthstar]

Hey, dude, why did you post in here?? I titled this specifically and made this thread so we don't derail yours. I expected the same curtosy.

Listen...threads where everyone has EXACTLY the same opinion arent threads at all...healthy debate should be encouraged.

[DHX]

Well, to be honest, apart in your LESS THAN COOL AS Nocturne (NOCTURNE?????????) thread, all you've done since you've signed up is BITCH, BITCH, BITCH about Claremont, anything he's wrote, that old lady who sells him his morning newspaper, his favourite crayon color and his dog!!
Either post something positive for a change, SHUT your FACE or be prepared for a barrage of complaints from posters who know the system!!!!

i am strangely aroused.

the whole bishops daughter fing bugged me. it started off with potential then washed out.

[Zombienorthstar]

Agreed. I didn't get her at all. So Bishop and Whats-her-face-Shi'ar boinked and had a kid? Why? How? .

They've already had a relationship in 616 Deathbird and Bishop having a kid is more than possible.

[Flight]

And Flight, what is "the system" Your face.

[Cayman]

Listen...threads where everyone has EXACTLY the same opinion arent threads at all...healthy debate should be encouraged.

Posters don't need permission to start a thread. If people aren't interested in discussing the topic, then the thread will languish.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Agreed. I didn't get her at all. So Bishop and Whats-her-face-Shi'ar boinked and had a kid? Why? How? \

Why? How?

Bishop liked her and his penis became engorged with blood. Deathbird was okay with said development and laid an egg. Then Bishop worked one out on said egg

and 9 months later we have an aaliyah omelette.

Thats really a big nitpicky. Not really a valid complaint. You are just bringing up plot points and saying "what? it doesnt make sense!"

There is a lot to dislike about x-men the end...

but really...it doesnt deserve any type of a response.

[tetragene]

Now lets wait for the Dazzlettes to swarm and beat me with the hypocrisy stick. :D

Look who's calling the vase Ming...

what i don't get is why YOU believe that stating your dislike of xmen the end will cause a thread to derail?

Probably because its happened many times before--you can't go into any CC-book related thread and post anything that could be taken as negative or criticism without someone saying you're a troll or a basher--regardless of how its worded or what explainations or used. Hell, I was critiquing how NEX plots weren't adding up and how the villains were shallow...and was lambasted by a certain someone and accused of just being a "mad Dazzler fan forever pissed at CC's rendition of her"...depite my problems with the plot/villains having nothing to do with the character. It's a pretty common occurence in those threads.

To get back on topic...The End wasn't entirely bad--and on the whole I think CC did a good job cameo-ing a crapload of characters from the X-Men's overpopulated history. However, I found Aaliyah unlikable, Gambit's "origin" extremely lame, involving "Phoenix" in it seemed superfluous, and the "what we learned in the end..." resolution was a real let-down. I was glad Medelyne Pryor showed up as I always found her more likable than Jean and Rachel and I enjoyed the explaination of her existance. Plus, Sage was killed off in a non-grand way, so +15 points right there. And yes, Dazzler did look hot. Definitely not worth buying all 18 issues, but it had its moments.

[Tobias March]

I'd like to extend this discussion a bit and say I've yet to read an 'End', book I've liked. Now saying that I haven't read Thanos The End, but then for so many others the point seems to have been missed.

They pale in comparison to Dark Knight Returns, which served in the words of Alan Moore as a fitting capstone to the Batman story. Yet he didn't die in the end. In fact it transformed the idea of Bruce Wayne hiding behind the mask - finally coming forward and asserting himself.

The End books are unnecessarily morbid for one thing and despite the sheer amount of continuity referenced in CC's X-Men tale, there was no reason for it to have been so long. What's more - why did it devolve into a space epic Shi'ar story? Surely the theme of whether or not Xavier's dream could finally succeed should have been the central concern of the book. As opposed to blink and you'll miss them cameos (look here's Boom Boom...oops, she's dead).

Is it a Marvel editor edict that The End books must end with lots of death and destruction? Or have CC, Jenkins, Davis and all simply misunderstood their brief?

edit: Actually now that I think about it lots of folk died in DKR. Not to mention 'Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow'. Still both had endings that were less....depressing I guess.

[ImpulseUCF]

Bishop liked her and his penis became engorged with blood. Deathbird was okay with said development and laid an egg. Then Bishop worked one out on said egg

and 9 months later we have an aaliyah omelette. LMAO. Very funny. Wow. And graphic. Does that count as interspecies erotica?

[Cayman]

There is a lot to dislike about x-men the end...

but really...it doesnt deserve any type of a response.

So which books do you give us your approval to discuss? Could you maybe put it in a sticky?

[Nachturne]

Posters don't need permission to start a thread. If people aren't interested in discussing the topic, then the thread will languish.

AWESOME POINT!!! Cause like...if people who didn't like this thread left it alone? It'd probably be dead right now. So kudos guys, for keeping it alive! Personally? I'm done with it. Moving on!

[Flight]

AWESOME POINT!!! Cause like...if people who didn't like this thread left it alone? It'd probably be dead right now. So kudos guys, for keeping it alive! Personally? I'm done with it. Moving on! Go you!!!~~~~~~
'Cause you are like, so totally cool grrrl!!~~
High 5 on the flipside mothaluva!

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

So which books do you give us your approval to discuss? Could you maybe put it in a sticky?

Thats just me trying to be cleve and pointing out the general "meh" of the whole mini.

X-men the end really reads like the community events page of a newspaper. I dont really see why it would illicit a response. But to each his own.

[Verminous]

Go you!!!~~~~~~
'Cause you are like, so totally cool grrrl!!~~
High 5 on the flipside mothaluva!

Why are you being such a bitch!!:rolleyes:

[jarrod]

The purpose seems pretty clear.
Indeed. I guess "double standard" is code for "ability to recognise bait"?

Look who's calling the vase Ming...
I know, I know... I totally deserve it.

*bends over*

[Flight]

Why are you being such a bitch!!:rolleyes: Why are you being such a turd!!:rolleyes:

[Karl H]

Well, to be honest, apart in your LESS THAN COOL AS Nocturne (NOCTURNE?????????) thread, all you've done since you've signed up is BITCH, BITCH, BITCH about Claremont, anything he's wrote, that old lady who sells him his morning newspaper, his favourite crayon color and his dog!!
Either post something positive for a change, SHUT your FACE or be prepared for a barrage of complaints from posters who know the system!!!!

arrghh I want to sig Flight - help...

[DHX]

arrghh I want to sig Flight - help...

you want to sig him? i want to have sex with him!

[Karl H]

you want to sig him? i want to have sex with him!

hang around for another couple of months an I'm sure your dreams will come true...

[Verminous]

Why are you being such a turd!!:rolleyes:

:D Wow well you showed me, what a clever witty guy you are.;)

[Beast]

and his dog!!
Claremont's a cat person. He and his wife have four of them. :D

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

Why the hell have you started another "For us guys who don't like the other thread"? thread. Grow up! This is stupid.

[Faded]

I think the best thing was seeing a wide variety of characters in one series. Once Sean Chen's art slowly deteriorated, I really lost interest. Me no likely crow's feet. Stick that botox in, grrrl.

[david r]

I'm a huge Claremont fan. Saying that, my disappointment with X-Men: The End was keen.

1) My core anger was the missed opportunity. Claremont has the chance to tell his FINAL X-MEN adventure, and we get an 18-issue outer space epic?? No mention of the theme of the X-Men---humans vs. mutants. It's not hardly even mentioned.

2) All the pointless deaths, from Angel's pointless death to Sage's to Banshee. None of the deaths here had any emotional impact at all. I really could not believe it.

3) Magneto--the main X-villain and who's been fighting them since #1--shows up dressed like a bum (no Conquering Colors here) and then promptly gets killed off almost immediately. Talk about anti-climactic!!

4) Claremont hints to previous stuff, like Storm getting crippled and the Brood becoming extinct. Are we EVER going to find out how any of that happened? Nope, all planned for Claremont's later Uncanny X-Men run, which now will never happen.

5) The final issue. Wow, what a travesty. I've been an X-Men fan since '78, and I don't think I've EVER seen such a lackluster issue. The whole "Tree of Life" thing left me cold, what the HELL is GOING ON?! The final page with Kitty Pryde blabbering on-and-on in a long-winded speech is vintage BAD Claremont.

This could have been SO GOOD! The first issue was GREAT! And then it just sank and sank into incomprehensible drudgery. Claremont could have, SHOULD HAVE, done much much better. A missed opportunity.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

I vaguely recall Northstars death being good.


Vaguelly.

[Karl H]

Angel died... That's always a good thing. But yeah, it felt messy to me. I've gotta dig it up and read it all again.

[Jeff-E]

My biggest qualm with the series was the length, it was just too long. Why do the X-Men need 18 issues, and the entire Marvel U only needs 6? I agree with some of the Deaths being... detached, but some were good. Northstars was good indeed, the scene of Alpha Flight was good, though a bit cliche', still good. The worst though was the "Tree of Life" and the line Cassie brought up about "Being Scared"... wasn't that used in Babylon 5, or Andromeda in the end? Plus I just hate the Cassie Nova creation and the series focused tooooooooo much on her. I think the Powers that be at Marvel just need to sit down get different writers and re-do the Marvel the End, and the X-men the End... but thats just me.

[onefutui2e]

the reason why i didn't like it (i didn't read the other posts) was because i was a new x-men fan, sort of. i mean, i knew about since i was a kid, but never picked up a single comic. so i didn't understand much of what was going on.

aside from that, while i expected the story to be about how the x-men ultimately win the fight for mutant equality, instead i got a space saga with that thrown in the side.

when claremont was writing this, did he think that the shi'ar was THAT important to the x-men such that it should play such a large role in their end?? i mean, honestly, the defining aspect of x-men is that they represent the oppressed. all we get are a few panels of kitty doing this.

instead of trying to do all these things at once and tie up every single loose thread, it should've been a straight superhero story. and i could've sworn that after 2 volumes, claremont was probably thinking, "oh shit, i gotta find a way to end this" because the ending was VERY VERY deux ex machina.

[Faded]

Aaliyah was an especially noxious character who hopefully will never somehow slip their way into the mainstream MU.

She was a beautiful singer/actress though. :( <3

[Cayman]

She was a beautiful singer/actress though. :( <3

LOL, true.

*mourns*

[Tag06]

Aaliyah needs to slip into the Exiles, then get trapped into mainstream Marvel Universe.

[That JonoGuy]

My main problem with XM The End had more to do with the art. Sean Chen's art didn't hold up to the epic nature of the story that Claremont was telling. That's not to say that Sean Chen isn't a good artist, because he most definately is. I just think the pairing wasn't the best choice they could have gone with. Add to that some of the out there story ideas, The End really left me a bit disappointed.

[Archer]

My main problem is that I have no idea what the hell it was about.

I mean the best X-Men stories - the best stories of ANY kind - aren't "about" one guy in tights beating up another guy in tights, they're about actual meaningful ideas, issues, themes.

X-Men: The End seemed to be 17 issues of lots of random cameos and things being blown up, and one issue of a Tree of Life. Completely and utterly pointless.

Compare it to Days of Future Past.

Which one of them gives a fitting sendoff for most of the current, main X-Men characters, while exploring the fundamental themes that make the series great? In which one of these stories do the actual decisions characters make have a genuine impact on what happens, in which do the characters grow and change - or we get new insight into those characters?

And which one of them comes across as a huge number of issues totally irrelevant to the real plot, to the extent that I hardly have an idea what the real plot even IS, while trying to namecheck every single X-Man ever, and portraying said X-Men as basically talking heads with no willpower or individuality of their own?

I love good Claremont. I hate bad Claremont.

X-Men: The End was, to me at least, largely pointless and far, far, far too padded. And this is coming from someone who loved Excalibur (the Genosha series), so I'm hardly bitching about him indiscriminately.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Well Excalibur was kickass.

[Novaya Havoc]

What killed me about X-Men: The End was the contrived... Ending.

Don't live in the mansion?
Get a real job?
Be out amongst the people?

It was basically what Dazzler was doing all along with her movie and everything. A plot Claremont never referenced in the pages of X-Men.

It should have been X-Men: The End -- Dazzler Was Right (but gets blown up by Cassandra Nova in space).

Perez Hilton would have a field day with that bit of celeb gossip. :p

[xmanson]

I gave up halfway in the first volume, can't even remember why.

[Nachturne]

What killed me about X-Men: The End was the contrived... Ending.

Don't live in the mansion?
Get a real job?
Be out amongst the people?

It was basically what Dazzler was doing all along with her movie and everything. A plot Claremont never referenced in the pages of X-Men.

It should have been X-Men: The End -- Dazzler Was Right (but gets blown up by Cassandra Nova in space).

Perez Hilton would have a field day with that bit of celeb gossip. :p

If Perez Hilton wasn't a gross piece of fat. Michael K all the way!!

[Faded]

If Perez Hilton wasn't a gross piece of fat. Michael K all the way!!

I know, right? Who is Michael K?

[Nachturne]

I know, right? Who is Michael K?

Amazing. www.dlisted.com Best blogger EVAR.

[AuroraNstar]

Why the hell have you started another "For us guys who don't like the other thread"? thread. Grow up! This is stupid.
If you don't like the thread or what it's about, why post in it? It seems like you're just trying to bait an argument.

[Nachturne]

If you don't like the thread or what it's about, why post in it? It seems like you're just trying to bait an argument.

Basically..yeah. But it seems like alot of people have actually gotten alot out of this thread, and it's still alive. That speaks volumes ;)

[AuroraNstar]

Basically..yeah. But it seems like alot of people have actually gotten alot out of this thread, and it's still alive. That speaks volumes ;)
I've noticed a lot of arguments over stupid stuff on these boards, and a lot stems from people who dislike Claremont and those staunch supporters spamming the crap out of the threads. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with Claremont. I loved his older stuff, but his recent stuff since returning to the X-Men has been so bad, that even the palest glimmer of what he used to be rarely shows up, and it's sad.

[Novaya Havoc]

And PS... Kitty Pryde would so never become Mayor of Chicago. That was wack. I could believe in an advanced alien race and space wars more than Kitty Pryde being elected in the lockdown machine politics of Chicago.

And that other chick running for Mayor, and polling ahead? As if. T'would never happen.

Silly X-Men: The End.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

I like the politics stuff.

I could see mayor

But not president. I mean a female jew with quasi lesbian tendencies? Hmmm

[Novaya Havoc]

I like the politics stuff.

I could see mayor

But not president. I mean a female jew with quasi lesbian tendencies? Hmmm


I love socio-political angles. I loved Bendis' stuff on Ultimate with Emma's "New Mutants."

But Kitty as the Mayor of Chicago? Ah, no. Mayor of Evanston, maybe. You don't just jump up and become MAYOR.

[xgeek52]

i will accept that there are those who do not and will not like the end...but it was a natural progression of 40 plus years of xmen...

when scott sent kitty back to chicago to run for mayor he believed it was the best place for her to be during the crisis they were facing...it wasn't because she was jewish or a 'quasi-lesbian', but because she was a mutant and as far things stood at the time it was the best place for her...it was the next level for them as mutants and he knew it... merging into the mainstream...

governor then president was a natural progression...she was a mutant who became president, no more not less...

check out 24, there two black presidents...the possibility is there...

claremont presented it in the end...

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

It was a dry year. Look who she was running against.

Plus it was a continuation from the best x-book ever made

Mekanix.

[xgeek52]

agreed that mekanix was awesome...it set the tone who the adult kitty pryde would be as a person...claremont was trying to say something about the mutant society -- and kitty pryde was pret much the focal point of the end run...

she came into the mutant world as the thirteen year old kid...she walked away from the xmen and carved a life for herself...scott saw this and he saw what she represent to mutants...

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Then Whedon came along and wrote his horrible Astonishing X-men


Astonishing X-men does more damage to Kitty Pryde than 100 issues of New Excalibur would do to Dazzler.

[jester1436]

I never bought an issue of The End, even though every time it came out my shop would put it in my pull stack.

I believe the main reason were the reviews posted here actually, I get almost every book by DC and Marvel it feels like, and I don't consider any continuity to be inpenetrable, but it was just...meh. Too much ridiculousness. It seemed like too much of an excerise in "look what I can do" than a genuine make me wanna read it story.

But who knows, maybe one day I'll pick up all the issues and read them. Despite the utter ridiculousness.

[xgeek52]

there we agree vash...mekanix took kitty into adulthood and whedon and astonishing ripped everthing apart...

but that doesn't negate the fact that in the end, scott saw her as the future...and you may like claremont or hate him but he has been consistant in his continuity...

[Nachturne]

but that doesn't negate the fact that in the end, scott saw her as the future...and you may like claremont or hate him but he has been consistant in his continuity...

If only he could be consistent with anyone elses.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

yes because Claremont is the first comic book writer in history to ignore stuff for the point of his story

Whedon Kitty- "Im not a fighter"

Well...you know...other than all the fucking ninja training i got.

Hell Morrison multiplied the mutant population something fierce.


Austen retconned the bible man! The Bible!

So on and so forth.

[xakko]

yes because Claremont is the first comic book writer in history to ignore stuff for the point of his story

Whedon Kitty- "Im not a fighter"

Well...you know...other than all the fucking ninja training i got.

Kitty quit the X-men. She gave up the war.

She just got called back in.

Whedon did have Wolverine comment about her ninja skills, and it has been depicted in Astonishing.

Just because she has the abilities, it doesn't mean that it defines her identity.

ergo, not a retcon.

[Pach!]

Kitty quit the X-men. She gave up the war.

She just got called back in.

Whedon did have Wolverine comment about her ninja skills, and it has been depicted in Astonishing.

Just because she has the abilities, it doesn't mean that it defines her identity.

ergo, not a retcon.

Agree 100%. Like xakko said the ninja abilities are mentioned.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

She didnt just get called back in

She was off in college fighting robot sentinels and palling around with the XXM.

Whedon sucked all of Kitty's awesome out. Now we just have 14 year old Kitty again

Which we already had, twice. It was called Jubilee once. She had a raincoat.

[xgeek52]

vash is right...she walked away from the xmen to find something different...mekanix expanded on that...whedon blew it...

and to be clear, whedon has done some awesome stuff when it comes to writing...astonishing just ain't it -- especially when it comes to kitty...

[Mariah]

Is it bad to have liked his Shan more from Mechanix than his Kitty? Although, to be fair, I've always liked Shan more than Kitty.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Well

actually Claremont sort of goofied himself there

He was going to have her join the X-treme X-men team

which i wouldnt have been a fan of.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Is it bad to have liked his Shan more from Mechanix than his Kitty? Although, to be fair, I've always liked Shan more than Kitty.

Nah

She was awesome in that too. God i love this comic. I have to find it on ebay..

It's so freaking expensive though...

[xgeek52]

vash i got the tpb...pm me and i'll see if i can still get a copy here...

we're talking twenty bucks tops...

i'm going to bed now, so i'll check in the morning...

[xakko]

She didnt just get called back in

She was off in college fighting robot sentinels and palling around with the XXM.

Whedon sucked all of Kitty's awesome out. Now we just have 14 year old Kitty again

Which we already had, twice. It was called Jubilee once. She had a raincoat.

the sentinels found her. stryker kidnapped her. and sage called her in, and Kitty was not happy about it. she wasn't fighting because she wanted to. hence, she isn't a fighter. She was mad at Scott when he first assigned her to the Astonishing team. it was one thing that Lobdell, Claremont, and Whedon's (and, ahem, Austen's) Kitty had in common - her desire to try a new path.

i think you are completely mistaken about Whedon's Kitty, which is really a natural evolution of the character.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

Deevolution

All character development is destroyed to make way for Kitty/Colossus. Yuck.

But we've done this dance too much so let's avoid that facet and get back into the whole kitty politics thing:


Although after some thinking, the "im not a fighter line" works.

I think i just have some residual hate from back when astonishing x-men 1 was previewed and that line was brought up right after the cloud hair thing.

Kitty going into politics is a great idea that needs to be explored. And it was one thing in x-men the end i liked.

[xakko]

Deevolution

All character development is destroyed to make way for Kitty/Colossus. Yuck.

But we've done this dance too much so let's avoid that facet and get back into the whole kitty politics thing:


Although after some thinking, the "im not a fighter line" works.

I think i just have some residual hate from back when astonishing x-men 1 was previewed and that line was brought up right after the cloud hair thing.

Kitty going into politics is a great idea that needs to be explored. And it was one thing in x-men the end i liked.

that's "devolution". it was Devo, not Deevo.

and you're right, we're going to disagree on this- except that i agree a political career makes sense for her as well, down the line. if she survives.

[darknessatnoon]

I didn't like this comic either.

[La Fea]

OMG! I discovered DListed in this thread!!!

<3<3<3

Comic itself is still </3, though.

[Novaya Havoc]

I didn't like this comic either.

Because Sage crashed into the sun and died?