Carey: The new Claremont?

[Sentinel K]

With Carey's X-men seemingly the core-book in the up-coming X-event, and with him writing the one-shot that acts as the prologue to the whole thing, it seems (to me anyway) that Mike Carey is getting increasingly more control over the overall direction of the franchise, much like Claremont did during the classic period from The Mutant massacre though Inferno and up to X-Tinction Agenda.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Agree or disagree?

No creator bashing please.

[blinkinrogue]

i have a strong belief in carey's talent, i just wish that with all the projects he is doing (and he is doing a lot), he doesnt burn out and run out of creative juices. X-men paved the way for him, and i hope he continues to write it for a long, long time.:)

[Mikl C]

GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Classic Claremont style, let's hope.

[Beast]

It's certainly looking like Carey's the big dog for the X-Men now.

A worthy successor.

[Canemacar]

He's got the talent, the dedication, and the fan support. I think it's very possible.

[Madrox84]

I agree. And that is no bad thing, Carey is a brilliant writer.

I'm looking forward to seeing what he has planned for the X-Franchise.

[Brian M.]

He certainly seems to have the support from Marvel and thus is able to put in some long term plots in his books. I think the long term planning is what helped Claremont and his earlier books become a success.

[Nyssane]

He seems to be the only writer who actually really enjoys writing the X-Books and loves to mingle with the fans. I'm proud to call myself a Carey fanboy, and I've never, ever been a fanboy for a comic book writer.

[marco19]

i was just thinking the same thing.....carey seems to be the go to writer for the x-franchise nowadays....the only probelm is that when teh new astosinhing x-men writer starts early next year hes probbaly gonna get carte blanche on which x-characters he wants to use...its already been casually hinted at by carey that the new writer wants iceman on his team

[Beast]

Where are you getting that from? I've never seen him drop hints about losing Iceman.

[xmanson]

Time will tell... his run so far has been a solid B, nothing more. And we do have the tradition of just changing the whole creative teams every 2-3 years, hopefull the current ones will last longer.

[Nyssane]

Where are you getting that from? I've never seen him drop hints about losing Iceman.

He said only three of the team members that were at the beginning of his run would stay throughout the future of the series, and two of them would be part of the trio of Rogue, Iceman, and Cannonball. Rogue is obviously a mainstay, but there's speculation on who is leaving out of Iceman or Cannonball. Personally, I love both, so I don't want to see either go. But if I had to pick one, it would be Iceman, only because Cannonball has so much untapped potential.

[CaptainCanada]

His is the lowest-selling of the three main titles, but he's also been the most engaged in what's happening in the X-universe at the moment, since AXM and UXM are off in space/the future (I honestly don't know how anyone could consider AXM the flagship title of the line; it does absolutely nothing for the franchise as a whole); Quesada said in a recent interview that he thinks everyone will be looking at UXM in the new year, so I'm guessing that something big is planned for that book once they get back from space and through the crossover. Carey is definitely doing a lot of the work on the crossover, though (given that Whedon does a million other things, and Brubaker is stretched to the limit, perhaps he has the most time? I don't know how many titles he writes apart from Adjectiveless).

[Beast]

He said only three of the team members that were at the beginning of his run would stay throughout the future of the series, and two of them would be part of the trio of Rogue, Iceman, and Cannonball. Rogue is obviously a mainstay, but there's speculation on who is leaving out of Iceman or Cannonball. Personally, I love both, so I don't want to see either go. But if I had to pick one, it would be Iceman, only because Cannonball has so much untapped potential.
Ah, ok. From his plans for Iceman I took that too mean he's ditching Cannonball.

[Beast]

His is the lowest-selling of the three main titles, but he's also been the most engaged in what's happening in the X-universe at the moment, since AXM and UXM are off in space/the future (I honestly don't know how anyone could consider AXM the flagship title of the line; it does absolutely nothing for the franchise as a whole); Quesada said in a recent interview that he thinks everyone will be looking at UXM in the new year, so I'm guessing that something big is planned for that book once they get back from space and through the crossover. Carey is definitely doing a lot of the work on the crossover, though (given that Whedon does a million other things, and Brubaker is stretched to the limit, perhaps he has the most time? I don't know how many titles he writes apart from Adjectiveless).
Sales don't equal quality. If it did, a lot of low selling stuff wouldn't get such positive reaction from critics and fans. Agents of Atlas, anyone? I expect Uncanny's higher sale numbers likely are due to the collector mentality and the more traditional cast. Carey's getting the most positive reaction from readers and his ideas are the ones that are leading the X-Franchise at the moment. And that's a good thing.

[Brian M.]

Ah, ok. From his plans for Iceman I took that too mean he's ditching Cannonball.

Yea and with the talk of an X-Force series and Cable running his own island and nation in Cable and Deadpool I think Cannonball would be ripe to lead.

[Frodo-X]

Ah, ok. From his plans for Iceman I took that too mean he's ditching Cannonball.
Well, if the X-Force rumors are true, it certainly makes it seem more likely that it'll be Cannonball leaving.

[CaptainCanada]

Sales don't equal quality.
Where did I say that? I'm just saying, his books sells the least; he's definitely got a big role in working out the crossover.
Carey's getting the most positive reaction from readers
The readers who post here.

[Omega Alpha]

His is the lowest-selling of the three main titles, but he's also been the most engaged in what's happening in the X-universe at the moment, since AXM and UXM are off in space/the future (I honestly don't know how anyone could consider AXM the flagship title of the line; it does absolutely nothing for the franchise as a whole); Quesada said in a recent interview that he thinks everyone will be looking at UXM in the new year, so I'm guessing that something big is planned for that book once they get back from space and through the crossover. Carey is definitely doing a lot of the work on the crossover, though (given that Whedon does a million other things, and Brubaker is stretched to the limit, perhaps he has the most time? I don't know how many titles he writes apart from Adjectiveless).

Carey has another 3 titles, so he doesn't have that much time either.

But he's closer to be the new Claremont or the new Morrison than any other X-writer at the moment, both by quality and because he's actually interested in the X-universe as a whole, not only his book.

[Beast]

Yea and with the talk of an X-Force series and Cable running his own island and nation in Cable and Deadpool I think Cannonball would be ripe to lead.
Agreed. Besides, if Carey getting Beast is true... I can't see why he'd want to lose Iceman.

[Beast]

Where did I say that? I'm just saying, his books sells the least; he's definitely got a big role in working out the crossover.

The readers who post here.
Yeah, his book sells the least. Yet Marvel's got him leading the franchise.

[Beast]

The readers who post here.
And the readers that post everywhere. And from the critics. And from the websites.

[Canemacar]

Carey is definitely doing a lot of the work on the crossover, though (given that Whedon does a million other things, and Brubaker is stretched to the limit, perhaps he has the most time? I don't know how many titles he writes apart from Adjectiveless).


Well, he's written three books in quick succession, writes for at least two indie books, writes Ultimate FF, did an Ultimate Vision mini, he's doing the Beast: Mythos thing, does Adjectiveless, orchestrated the cross-over, wrote the Endangered Species one-shot, had an informal crossover with C&DP, and is working on a script for a film. There's probably more, but thats all I remember. Carey isn't just taking up slack because he has the free time.

[Nyssane]

The readers who post here.

The only explanation I've been getting about why other people don't "like" the book is because they use villains like Sabretooth, Mystique, and Lady Mastermind. If people would actually pick up the book, they could shut their faces because they'd realize how good it is.

And don't give me "the art sucks," either. Bachalo rocks comic socks.

[Frodo-X]

And the readers that post everywhere. And from the critics. And from the websites.
Yes, but remember that the internet community at-large doesn't like Wolverine or Gambit, and hates Origins.

We aren't to be taken too seriously.

But I agree that he's the closest we've got now, mainly because, as mentioned already, he seems genuinely interested in the entire X-Universe, and not just his own title.

[Sentinel K]

Well, he's written three books in quick succession, writes for at least two indie books, writes Ultimate FF, did an Ultimate Vision mini, he's doing the Beast: Mythos thing, does Adjectiveless, orchestrated the cross-over, wrote the Endangered Species one-shot, had an informal crossover with C&DP, and is working on a script for a film. There's probably more, but thats all I remember. Carey isn't just taking up slack because he has the free time.

Don't forget his awesome Felix Castor novels.

Which everyone should read.

EDIT: Err... you didn't forget. Me stoopid.

[blinkinrogue]

His is the lowest-selling of the three main titles, but he's also been the most engaged in what's happening in the X-universe at the moment, since AXM and UXM are off in space/the future (I honestly don't know how anyone could consider AXM the flagship title of the line; it does absolutely nothing for the franchise as a whole); Quesada said in a recent interview that he thinks everyone will be looking at UXM in the new year, so I'm guessing that something big is planned for that book once they get back from space and through the crossover. Carey is definitely doing a lot of the work on the crossover, though (given that Whedon does a million other things, and Brubaker is stretched to the limit, perhaps he has the most time? I don't know how many titles he writes apart from Adjectiveless).

x-men's sales is not far from uncanny.... and when you compare carey to brubaker and whedon, these two writers are admittedly more popular than carey and their names will sell comics (carey is still in the process of making a name, and im confident it wont take long before he joins the ranks of bendis and bru), not to mention the cast they have, whedon's team has the most A-list and popular xmen, combine it with his name and the massive exposure/campaign by marvel and love given by the "comic authorities" ehem, wizard anyone? who practically kiss the very ground where whedon walks..., its no wonder that astonishing will sell more copies...

You have to give carey his due, look at what characters he had left, lady M, sabretooth, cannonball (he cant even get the characters he wanted at first), how much talent does it take to write really good stories with characters like those? only mike carey can do that.... also, except for xmen #200, most of the arcs/issues by carey from the first issue he started had the least push from marvel campaign-wise compared to astonishing and uncanny.

[Beast]

Yes, but remember that the internet community at-large doesn't like Wolverine or Gambit, and hates Origins.
That's because we actually have good taste, silly boy. ;)
We aren't to be taken too seriously.
No, but Marvel's faith in Carey should be. He's playing Mr. Daddy Pants to the X-Books.
But I agree that he's the closest we've got now, mainly because, as mentioned already, he seems genuinely interested in the entire X-Universe, and not just his own title.
Yep, he cares about the X-Men as a whole. Which is nice to see in a writer again.

[CaptainCanada]

who practically kiss the very ground where whedon walks...,
They consume the ground Whedon walks on.

[Maestro]

Morrison had more of an impact in changing direction in his run

[Sentinel K]

Morrison had more of an impact in changing direction in his run

Shame it led to a dead end though. Good though Morrisson was, he left the franchis in a bad state.

Morrisson just did his own thing in his own title for a defined period of time.

Carey actually cares what's going on in the other books and uses them (new X-men kids, cable & Deadpool etc)and wants to stay on the book for an extended period of time. He has long term plans.

Hardly comparable.

[Kaos]

Yeah Carey's doing big things, and I hope he has a long run, you can tell he cares about the whole X-univerese which means he ain gonna screw people around just to tell HIS story.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Don't forget his awesome Felix Castor novels.

Actually, yes those probably should be recommended to those who don't just read comic books.

I'm always wary of comparing anybody to Claremont. Not because I'm some weird Claremont fanboy who believes Chris to be some untouchable comic book Deity - but more-so because hype can often do more damage than good in this industry. Let's not set Carey up for a fall, huh?

However, Carey should also be commended for a lot of good as both a writer and bringing a positive buzz to the X-Brand.

Carey has good previous form. This is a man who took a spin off from one of the highly respected comic book series of the past 20 years, Neil Gaiman's 'The Sandman,' and turned 'Lucifer' into a book which became almost as respected as its predecessor. He even had Gaiman's full support to adapt his book Neverwhere, into a DC Vertigo title. No mean feat.

What Carey does however in his X-Men work, which interests me in particular, is that he takes pre-existing characters which most people had forgotten about and, rather than tacking a self-motivated new ideal on top of them, actually seems to ask himself 'What were this character's chief strengths when they were last seen, and what did they have to offer?'. He likes to play with existing characters to create new - and more importantly interesting - stories with them. And I don't actually feel there has really been any writer since Claremont who genuinely comes across as having that spark of enthusiasm for playing with the possibilities of existing characters, more than he has so far.

Even Grant Morrison - often said to be an ardent Claremont fan - tried to shape the X-Men to his own agenda and vision for a book, rather than work with the characters as they were originally intended.

And I think that it's this enthusiasm which has endeared him to so many fans in his run so far. Whereas writers like Lobdell often seemed to change characters, almost in spite, to simply be different to what Chris Claremont had done before him, or Peter Milligan chose to write in a manner which poked fun at the conventions and form of the X-Titles, to make a point rather than actually tell a decent story, Carey seems to like playing with old continuity in a more organic way - and to write an actual X-Men book, rather than his own self-motivated side attraction.

Even Joss Whedon cuts his team away from the other books to make it his self-contained corner of the brand. Carey doesn't seem to give a wet slap about making a name for himself. He just seems to want to write a good story.

In many ways that what's Claremont did in the beginning. When he started on Uncanny it was a book in heavy decline. He didn't really have anything to lose, so he just went and told some good stories with the characters he'd inherited - and managed to do so for a steady 15 odd years.

Let's not get ahead ourselves, and say Carey will definitely forge a similar path, but yes there are some similarities. Let's just keep reading what the guy has to contribute. If the quality stays high who knows where he could go. But he hasn't finished a first year, yet. Let's not get ahead of ourselves...;)

[Sentinel K]

Awsome post dude.

[Frodo-X]

Actually, yes those probably should be recommended to those who don't just read comic books.

I'm always wary of comparing anybody to Claremont. Not because I'm some weird Claremont fanboy who believes Chris to be some untouchable comic book Deity - but more-so because hype can often do more damage than good in this industry. Let's not set Carey up for a fall, huh?

However, Carey should also be commended for a lot of good as both a writer and bringing a positive buzz to the X-Brand.

Carey has good previous form. This is a man who took a spin off from one of the highly respected comic book series of the past 20 years, Neil Gaiman's 'The Sandman,' and turned 'Lucifer' into a book which became almost as respected as its predecessor. He even had Gaiman's full support to adapt his book Neverwhere, into a DC Vertigo title. No mean feat.

What Carey does however in his X-Men work, which interests me in particular, is that he takes pre-existing characters which most people had forgotten about and, rather than tacking a self-motivated new ideal on top of them, actually seems to ask himself 'What were this character's chief strengths when they were last seen, and what did they have to offer?'. He likes to play with existing characters to create new - and more importantly interesting - stories with them. And I don't actually feel there has really been any writer since Claremont who genuinely comes across as having that spark of enthusiasm for playing with the possibilities of existing characters, more than he has so far.

Even Grant Morrison - often said to be an ardent Claremont fan - tried to shape the X-Men to his own agenda and vision for a book, rather than work with the characters as they were originally intended.

And I think that it's this enthusiasm which has endeared him to so many fans in his run so far. Whereas writers like Lobdell often seemed to change characters, almost in spite, to simply be different to what Chris Claremont had done before him, or Peter Milligan chose to write in a manner which poked fun at the conventions and form of the X-Titles, to make a point rather than actually tell a decent story, Carey seems to like playing with old continuity in a more organic way - and to write an actual X-Men book, rather than his own self-motivated side attraction.

Even Joss Whedon cuts his team away from the other books to make it his self-contained corner of the brand. Carey doesn't seem to give a wet slap about making a name for himself. He just seems to want to write a good story.

In many ways that what's Claremont did in the beginning. When he started on Uncanny it was a book in heavy decline. He didn't really have anything to lose, so he just went and told some good stories with the characters he'd inherited - and managed to do so for a steady 15 odd years.

Let's not get ahead ourselves, and say Carey will definitely forge a similar path, but yes there are some similarities. Let's just keep reading what the guy has to contribute. If the quality stays high who knows where he could go. But he hasn't finished a first year, yet. Let's not get ahead of ourselves...;)
Well said.

I agree entirely.

[Radical_dreamer]

I frankly put Carey far above Claremont but that's just me. With that said I also have to admit that Carey seems for some reason or another get a free card with fans. they are FAR less harsh with him than with other X-writers. It's a bit bizarre. Every month i come here and see glowing reviews of his title like he had just written perfection which is not the case. His stories are good but hardly anything legendary. And sometimes his concepts just dissapoint. You get the impression that if another name was on the cover the same arguments used to glorify him would be turned against him.
I think it may be because he's actually an x-fanboy himself, something that shows in every one of his interviews. In returns fans are much nicer feelign the whole one-of-us mentality.

[Beast]

I frankly put Carey far above Claremont but that's just me. With that said I also have to admit that Carey seems for some reason or another get a free card with fans. they are FAR less harsh with him than with other X-writers. It's a bit bizarre. Every month i come here and see glowing reviews of his title like he had just written perfection which is not the case. His stories are good but hardly anything legendary. And sometimes his concepts just dissapoint. You get the impression that if another name was on the cover the same arguments used to glorify him would be turned against him.
I think it may be because he's actually an x-fanboy himself, something that shows in every one of his interviews. In returns fans are much nicer feelign the whole one-of-us mentality.
I don't think any of that is the case at all. Maybe his stuff just isn't your thing?

[Frodo-X]

I frankly put Carey far above Claremont but that's just me. With that said I also have to admit that Carey seems for some reason or another get a free card with fans. they are FAR less harsh with him than with other X-writers. It's a bit bizarre. Every month i come here and see glowing reviews of his title like he had just written perfection which is not the case. His stories are good but hardly anything legendary. And sometimes his concepts just dissapoint. You get the impression that if another name was on the cover the same arguments used to glorify him would be turned against him.
I think it may be because he's actually an x-fanboy himself, something that shows in every one of his interviews. In returns fans are much nicer feelign the whole one-of-us mentality.
I'm not too sure about that, though, because before his first book came out he was facing a lot of skepticism. His choice of team members was highly unliked, and no amount of fanboyish interviews changed it.

It wasn't until his first book came out that everyone changed their tunes. It's his work that people are responding to, his attitude is just part of why he does such good work. If the stories were crap, we'd hear it. Look at Brubaker. He's widely respected for his work on Daredevil and Cap, but his Uncanny has gotten a lukewarm response.

[Sentinel K]

I frankly put Carey far above Claremont but that's just me. With that said I also have to admit that Carey seems for some reason or another get a free card with fans. they are FAR less harsh with him than with other X-writers. It's a bit bizarre. Every month i come here and see glowing reviews of his title like he had just written perfection which is not the case. His stories are good but hardly anything legendary. And sometimes his concepts just dissapoint. You get the impression that if another name was on the cover the same arguments used to glorify him would be turned against him.
I think it may be because he's actually an x-fanboy himself, something that shows in every one of his interviews. In returns fans are much nicer feelign the whole one-of-us mentality.

You rate 10 issues of a single title above 17 years of multiple titles, ground-breaking story strands and classic character moments?

...oooookay.

[Pach!]

You rate 10 issues of a single title above 17 years of multiple titles, ground-breaking story strands and classic character moments?

...oooookay.

Well I guess it depends what you consider Claremont's writing abilities to be... what he wrote many years ago or what he writes now.

[Beast]

You rate 10 issues of a single title above 17 years of multiple titles, ground-breaking story strands and classic character moments?

...oooookay.
Yeah, I was going to question that myself. But eh, people like what they like.

Though I don't really fathom liking X-Men without at least liking the founding years.

But I guess someone could be a fan based on the 90's toon or something. :)

[Beast]

Well I guess it depends what you consider Claremont's writing abilities to be... what he wrote many years ago or what he writes now.
That wasn't what Sentinel K was referring to though. As is pretty clear by the topic.

[Sentinel K]

Well I guess it depends what you consider Claremont's writing abilities to be... what he wrote many years ago or what he writes now.

Well the whole point of the thread was kind of comparing Carey now to Claremont then.

I thought that was pretty clear. I apologize if it isn't.

[Joe Franklin]

Where did I say that? I'm just saying, his books sells the least; he's definitely got a big role in working out the crossover.



And X-Men was selling less when Austen and then Milligan were writing it as well. Uncanny X-Men is always going to sell more because of it being the longest running current X-Men title, and Astonishing X-Men sells better because of the hyped creative team and Wolverine being in it.

[Will.S]

Mike Carey is more of a mix of Claremont and Morrison but a bit more on the Morrison side since his ideas are big and weird and he manages to continue some things left by Morrison and make it his own.

As far as what he has in common with Chris's X-Men work, he does sub-plots very well, gets all the characters, and tries to integrate many things in the x-verse or beyond which is cool of him.

[Canemacar]

Yeah, I was going to question that myself. But eh, people like what they like.

Though I don't really fathom liking X-Men without at least liking the founding years.

But I guess someone could be a fan based on the 90's toon or something. :)

I was brought in by the old cartoon, but I don't think I could like the X-men without at least appreciating the older stuff.(I actually like it alot. I bought some Essentials just yesterday).

[Beast]

And X-Men was selling less when Austen and then Milligan were writing it as well. Uncanny X-Men is always going to sell more because of it being the longest running current X-Men title, and Astonishing X-Men sells better because of the hyped creative team and Wolverine being in it.
I honestly doubt Wolverine has anything to do with the sales. At least not a signifigant one.

[Frodo-X]

Well I guess it depends what you consider Claremont's writing abilities to be... what he wrote many years ago or what he writes now.
But we aren't talking about current Claremont. From Sentinel K's first post:

much like Claremont did during the classic period from The Mutant massacre though Inferno and up to X-Tinction Agenda.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I'm not too sure about that, though, because before his first book came out he was facing a lot of skepticism. His choice of team members was highly unliked, and no amount of fanboyish interviews changed it.

It wasn't until his first book came out that everyone changed their tunes. It's his work that people are responding to, his attitude is just part of why he does such good work. If the stories were crap, we'd hear it.

I'd totally agree with that. There was a lot of skepticism on here alone. Who was this guy? Nobody had heard of him. And when I mentioned that he'd been doing stuff for Vertigo for a few years some people actively stated that would be an instant turn off to them.

But you can only ever judge a writer by thestrength of his work. Carey seems to have won over the larger parts of X-Fandom via the enthusiasm he puts in his writing. That will usually win people over in the end.

Look at Brubaker. He's widely respected for his work on Daredevil and Cap, but his Uncanny has gotten a lukewarm response.

I think the problem in Brubaker's case is probably that he's just been swamped by the workload. His Captain America, Daredevil and Iron Fist have all been praised, but each one of those kind of inhabits a similar space in the MU. Wheras jumping from writing those over to a twelve issue space epic? Well, if my head had to jump between those two poles I think it might explode.:D

Four monthly books is a bit of stretch.

[Beast]

I was brought in by the old cartoon, but I don't think I could like the X-men without at least appreciating the older stuff.(I actually like it alot. I bought some Essentials just yesterday).
Not to mention a lot of the 90's toon stuff is mined from CC's run.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Not to mention a lot of the 90's toon stuff is mined from CC's run.

It's actually surprisingly faithfull to it, as well.

[Canemacar]

It's actually surprisingly faithfull to it, as well.

The ending to the DPS adaptation sucked though.

[Beast]

The ending to the DPS adaptation sucked though.
Well, they couldn't have Jean commit suicide in a cartoon. ;)

Plus it was easier for to bring her back later in the series when they wanted to.

[Beast]

Frackin' double post. Damn slow servers. :p

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The ending to the DPS adaptation sucked though.

I think it was more down to not wanting to confuse viewers in quite the way the comics did. :D

But this is kinda going off-topic now. So I'll stop.

[streator]

i don't really think he's the "new claremont".

i don't think any one writer will have as much influence/control over the x-men franchise as claremont once did.

it's a different time/place.

yeah, carey's writing a core title and has some influence over what is coming, but other writers have influence too. i didn't sound to me like the recent x-men summit or whatever was all carey with everyone else listening; it sounded like all of the writers were collaborating and coming up with stuff together.

i like carey and his work but i don't really see him (or anyone) being a "new claremont".

[Jesse Newcomb]

I always thought of Bendis as the new Claremont. He has the same characteristics, dialogue and a perchant for the slow cooker plot. I've read his Daredevil and it was exactly like Claremont's run on X-Men. They all interconnected with each other, reading as a whole but has standout stories.

[xmanson]

yeah, i'll really doubt we'l ever have another writer guiding the line for freaking 17 years. not gonna happen.

[Pach!]

Well the whole point of the thread was kind of comparing Carey now to Claremont then.

I thought that was pretty clear. I apologize if it isn't.

Oh wow, I'm sorry I didn't read the first post, it's really clear so no need to apologize. As strange as it will make me look, I haven't "read" any of claremont's stuff from back then. I've read the summaries, so I do know the stories, but for some reason when I want to read the comics, the art (style, color and for some reason the paper) just seems to turn me off to the comic and I can never read it. Does that ever happen to any one else?


Now reading the question properly, will he be able to affect the X-men as Claremont did? Well I think his stories are top notch but I think with this many titles being released it's hard to picture Carey's stories having the same effect as Claremont's did back then.

[Frodo-X]

Oh wow, I'm sorry I didn't read the first post, it's really clear so no need to apologize. As strange as it will make me look, I haven't "read" any of claremont's stuff from back then. I've read the summaries, so I do know the stories, but for some reason when I want to read the comics, the art (style, color and for some reason the paper) just seems to turn me off to the comic and I can never read it. Does that ever happen to any one else?


Now reading the question properly, will he be able to affect the X-men as Claremont did? Well I think his stories are top notch but I think with this many titles being released it's hard to picture Carey's stories having the same effect as Claremont's did back then.
Kinda. I've read Dark Phoenix Saga, but that's it. I don't really like older books that much because of the paper.

I love the stuff they use now. The older books are like newspaper, whereas the new stuff seems closer to photo paper. It's so much clearer.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

yeah, i'll really doubt we'l ever have another writer guiding the line for freaking 17 years. not gonna happen.

These days though, I also think that very few writers actually WANT to do anything for that long either... :D

[Faded]

Excellent post, Sword. I particularly like how you pointed out his use of pre-existing characters. It seems like it takes just as much imagination to dig someone up, like he did for Lady M and Karima, then to just create all new characters (or create all new characters out of pre-existing characters ;)).

But yes, what you said.

He said only three of the team members that were at the beginning of his run would stay throughout the future of the series, and two of them would be part of the trio of Rogue, Iceman, and Cannonball. Rogue is obviously a mainstay, but there's speculation on who is leaving out of Iceman or Cannonball. Personally, I love both, so I don't want to see either go. But if I had to pick one, it would be Iceman, only because Cannonball has so much untapped potential.

I agree that Cannonball has more potential, but I feel like Carey 'gets' Iceman 100% whereas Cannonball is still bit of a question mark. But maybe he does keep Cannonball since he hasn't been used as much in his run.

Morrison had more of an impact in changing direction in his run

Morrison, bless his heart, revitalized the X-Men IMO.

But what I think a lot of writers are failing at is trying to meet that same amount of impact and making things so over-the-top. Carey's run, at least pre-Crossover, is doing an excellent job at keeping the X-Men fresh by telling consistently good, lower-key stories with edgy elements as a side-order. And I think a lot of X-cynics will be able to find appreciation in that.

I frankly put Carey far above Claremont but that's just me. With that said I also have to admit that Carey seems for some reason or another get a free card with fans. they are FAR less harsh with him than with other X-writers. It's a bit bizarre. Every month i come here and see glowing reviews of his title like he had just written perfection which is not the case. His stories are good but hardly anything legendary. And sometimes his concepts just dissapoint. You get the impression that if another name was on the cover the same arguments used to glorify him would be turned against him.
I think it may be because he's actually an x-fanboy himself, something that shows in every one of his interviews. In returns fans are much nicer feelign the whole one-of-us mentality.

A LOT of the writers seem very fanboyish, actually.

I will admit I will ALWAYS respect Carey more because of the immense amount of respect he gives in turn to the fans. He has an incredible down to earth feel, even if he doesn't like Beak. ;)

[Mister Mets]

With Carey's X-men seemingly the core-book in the up-coming X-event, and with him writing the one-shot that acts as the prologue to the whole thing, it seems (to me anyway) that Mike Carey is getting increasingly more control over the overall direction of the franchise, much like Claremont did during the classic period from The Mutant massacre though Inferno and up to X-Tinction Agenda.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Agree or disagree?

No creator bashing please.
People at Marvel has often compared him to Morrison, and I think those comparisons are more apt. He has the crazy ideas to benefit the franchise, although he seems to have a better grasp of continuity, and alienates less fans of the franchise (although I honestly Morrison's work was more intense).

I'd say he's just one of three good X-Men writers at the moment.

[Canemacar]

I will admit I will ALWAYS respect Carey more because of the immense amount of respect he gives in turn to the fans. He has an incredible down to earth feel, even if he doesn't like Beak. ;)

I love that he openly hates Beak. It shows that all the good things he's said about other characters isn't just him blowing smoke. If he doesn't like a character, he won't lie about it.

[We R. Venom]

I really hope Carey stays on for as long as possible too. Don't know TOO much about Claremont really but I can see why they are being compared in some ways. I also think he is better. *wink*

[The Fury]

After recently reading alot of Claremont's early work on such titles as Uncanny and New Mutants, his work here is great and while might not have the epic that most writers strive hard to achieve he replaces this with sure great stories.

Mike Carey is moving to this but to say he's the new Claremont is not really a good comparison in my view. Carey's run so far is far more edgier then Claremont has ever writen.

Carey could move the X-men into a new great era...not like other writers ar....oh right no bashing.

[rwsmith]

And the readers that post everywhere. And from the critics. And from the websites.

While I like the guy's work and am a big supporter, that's not true at all. I've seen a lot of negative reaction to Carey's X-men run at Newsarama, Millarworld and Jinxworld (Bendis' site). In fact, the only places I've seen that seem to be overflowing with praise for him are this one and X-fan.

But, like I said, I like his stuff, so I don't really care that much what other people think. I just hope sales improve so Marvel keeps him on the book.

[Hi-Fi]

I think Carey is more like the new Morrison than the new Claremont. Mike is a smart guy. What he did first was fix Rogue. This is a character with a really big fanbase, a character that has been left forgotten and suffered from mischaracterization for the last decade.

So he won me over right there.

The thing is: it's just not it. The dude knows how to write, he has a immense respect for the X-Men mythology and he adress old continuity AND inter-books continuity, something that X-Fans love to see. He's also obsessed with dialogue (so he told) and it shows: it's fresh, it's interesting, it's cool. He's also not afraid to create his own villains.

So yeah, I hope he stays for a long, long time, but I really don't like to compare him to Claremont. Apples and oranges, people.

[Hi-Fi]

Time will tell... his run so far has been a solid B, nothing more.
Solid A.

While I like the guy's work and am a big supporter, that's not true at all. I've seen a lot of negative reaction to Carey's X-men run at Newsarama, Millarworld and Jinxworld (Bendis' site). In fact, the only places I've seen that seem to be overflowing with praise for him are this one and X-fan.

But, like I said, I like his stuff, so I don't really care that much what other people think. I just hope sales improve so Marvel keeps him on the book.
Really? I've seen lots of positive reactions at Newsarama.

[rwsmith]

I've seen a few, but mostly it was negative. Having said that, it seems like most of the folks at Newsarama don't like anyone. I don't think I've ever seen a thread that wasn't mostly negative. So I took it with a grain of salt.

[Canemacar]

I think Carey is more like the new Morrison than the new Claremont. Mike is a smart guy. What he did first was fix Rogue. This is a character with a really big fanbase, a character that has been left forgotten and suffered from mischaracterization for the last decade.

I think he rebuilt Rogue more out of love for the character than a desire to win fans, with the acclaim he would get by doing so being a perk.

[CmX]

Really? I've seen a huge majority of the reaction to Carey's XMen as positive. I've only seen probably a handful of posters react negatively. Different strokes I suppose.

Although comixtreme's reviews seem to bash his run into the ground for whatever reasons.

[Hi-Fi]

I think he rebuilt Rogue more out of love for the character than a desire to win fans, with the acclaim he would get by doing so being a perk.

Obviously. He wouldn't have invested so much in a character he doesn't care about. All I'm saying, while he did that, he won a lot of fans.:)

[Canemacar]

Obviously. He wouldn't have invested so much in a character he doesn't care about. All I'm saying, while he did that, he won a lot of fans.:)

Well sure. Any quality writing will attract fans. Carey just does it because he loves the characters instead of his ego (and it's like a breath of fresh air to me).

[rwsmith]

I think he rebuilt Rogue more out of love for the character than a desire to win fans, with the acclaim he would get by doing so being a perk.

Well, it was a smart move IMO, because Rogue has a huge built-in fanbase. More so than most X-men.

Another character that used to be wildly popular was Cable, and if Carey can tap into that hardcase vibe that Nate used to have, then he might raise him to near-Wolverine popularity levels again (like he was in the early 90's).

[CmX]

Well sure. Any quality writing will attract fans. Carey just does it because he loves the characters instead of his ego (and it's like a breath of fresh air to me).

I agree 1000% haha :D

I was beginning to think I was the only one to realize this.

[Hi-Fi]

Well sure. Any quality writing will attract fans. Carey just does it because he loves the characters instead of his ego (and it's like a breath of fresh air to me).
One of the nicest guys from the comics industry, I'd have to say. He's class A.

[Radical_dreamer]

You rate 10 issues of a single title above 17 years of multiple titles, ground-breaking story strands and classic character moments?

...oooookay.

"You rate 17 years of repetitive convoluted and cliche'd writing above 10 issues of new exiting direction that finally stops threading waters?

....okay:rolleyes: "

See how that works? Different opinions. Different tastes. While I respect claremont's contributions to the x-mythos he remains, by my tastes and experiences, which I am not in any way implying are the right ones, an extremely mediocre writer.

[xmanson]

The line is spread too wide for anyone to have that huge of an impact nowadays.

[UncannyAsianGirl]

Is Carey the new Claremont?

Well, it depends... As far as overall contribution goes, he isn't even close. This is only his first year though, so we'll see...

Like many have said before, Chris Claremont is responsible for shaping the X-Verse as it is today. During his first run, not only did he create a lot of defining moments and establish a lot of characters' personalities, he created or had a hand in creating a lot of the most beloved characters today. I think it's safe to say that almost every X-Men fan has at least one Chris Claremont creation among their favorites. :D

In the sense that Mike Carey's revitalizing the X-Franchise in the way Claremont did, he is certainly headed in the right direction.

He's convinced people a lot of people that yes, there is a good reason for people like Sabretooth, Mystique, and Lady Mastermind to be on his roster; he's made throwaway characters whom people have overlooked in the past interesting; he's breathed new life into characters who sorely needed a push; he's dusting off and using characters that have been left in limbo for a long, long time; and he actually knows about obscure characters and likes them as much as their fans.

In short, he makes people actually care for the characters again. :cool:

And even if he doesn't like a character, like Beak, he'll still respect the fans that do, and if he did happen to write a character that he didn't like, there's a big chance that you wouldn't know that he disliked him/her, since he knows why people like the characters they like, and will probably base his characterizations off of that.

In case everyone's wondering where Mike said he didn't like Beak, here's what he said. What’s wrong with Beak? Starting with his name, pretty much everything. I do love that moment when he meets Fantomex’s flying saucer, though. “Hello, X-Man…”
I think it's funny that he says he doesn't like him, but then goes and says what his favorite moment with him is anyway. :p

His enthusiasm is also infectious. I'm also willing to guess that a lot of people haven't been this excited over the goings on (in Adjectiveless X-men at the very least) in the X-titles in a long, long time.

Also, even though this is only his first year, he's already being put to the task of orchestrating/organizing the Endangered Species backstories that will lead up to the crossover.

But I think I could see why some people don't like his writing... Mike expects people to read between the lines, he doesn't lay out everything in front of the readers. Instead, he sprinkles clues throughout his writing, and hints at things to come in his blog before finally giving us the big reveal at the end of an arc. And for people who like being told everything that's going on, or want to see something happen immediately, it grates with them, puts them off, or it possibly even drives them crazy.

It drives me crazy too, but in a very different way. I LOVE making guesses and trying to put together all the clues, and well, I might be driving Mike crazy with all my questions in the process.

A lot of us are addicted with his blog. :o

[Faded]

I love that he openly hates Beak. It shows that all the good things he's said about other characters isn't just him blowing smoke. If he doesn't like a character, he won't lie about it.

Exactly. When he first said he was interested in Revanche, I was in utter disbeleif. So the fact that he doesn't like Beak really assures me. :D

[xmanson]

Mike expects people to read between the lines, he doesn't lay out everything in front of the readers.

You seem like a very nice kid, and this is not to offend you, but please, no talking about that bs argument of why people dislike his writing. It was the same thing with Morrison: "You don't lkike it because you're too stupid to understand it".

[UncannyAsianGirl]

Nah, that's not what I was getting at all. :D

Some people honestly don't like surprises, I was talking more about preference and taste, rather than "being too stupid to get it." :p

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I like Carey....I think he's pretty damn solid as a writer on X-Men. But I really can't see him as the new Claremont. The ones who really make me think Claremont is Yost & Kyle. Its like they took a handbag of all CC's ideas from the 80's and thought.... " Hey ya know what would be cool , lets do this with Stryker and this with Nimrod ! Hell yeahh....lets do new things."

Thus far its made their run very good. Now their gonna touch on yet another CC plot with Illyana . So if anyones the 2nd coming its those 2 who use the new cast with a whole new awesome twist.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Shame it led to a dead end though. Good though Morrisson was, he left the franchis in a bad state.

Morrisson just did his own thing in his own title for a defined period of time.

Carey actually cares what's going on in the other books and uses them (new X-men kids, cable & Deadpool etc)and wants to stay on the book for an extended period of time. He has long term plans.

Hardly comparable.

Morrison didn't leave the series in a " dead end ". He had plots and stories that Marvel odds are could have done for years. But the temptation to do more " Well the X-Men are minority that are hated and feared " outwieghed the new changes. After awhile you kinda just chuckle at how fast they really had no clue what to do to follow Morrison's act.

[Canemacar]

Morrison didn't leave the series in a " dead end ". He had plots and stories that Marvel odds are could have done for years. But the temptation to do more " Well the X-Men are minority that are hated and feared " outwieghed the new changes. After awhile you kinda just chuckle at how fast they really had no clue what to do to follow Morrison's act.

Being a misunderstood minority is what the X-men are all about. Thats what makes them relevant and relateable. If you take that away they become simply generic superheros.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Being a misunderstood minority is what the X-men are all about. Thats what makes them relevant and relateable. If you take that away they become simply generic superheros.

I think you never read the series he did because it didn't read like a superhero X-Men comic....more or less a sci-fi approach to it all. It wasn't about being a super hero. Humanity was becoming extinct slowly and it was bringing more dangers to ahead. The old minority was now in a few generations gonna be the dominant race.

He introduced new concepts that shook things up. Its just that they really didn't have someone who could follow him beyond Whedon on Astonishing.

[Citizen V]

There is no successor to Claremont`s work.I see Carey as someone who just happens to have control over Claremont`s contributions to Stan Lee`s X-men.

[Beast]

Exactly. When he first said he was interested in Revanche, I was in utter disbeleif. So the fact that he doesn't like Beak really assures me. :D
That he has bad taste in bad characters?

[Beast]

I think you never read the series he did because it didn't read like a superhero X-Men comic....more or less a sci-fi approach to it all. It wasn't about being a super hero. Humanity was becoming extinct slowly and it was bringing more dangers to ahead. The old minority was now in a few generations gonna be the dominant race.

He introduced new concepts that shook things up. Its just that they really didn't have someone who could follow him beyond Whedon on Astonishing.
Because there really was no way to follow them up. There was no where to go. X-Men/Mutants shouldn't dominate the Marvel Universe. You do that, it makes the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc... unneccessary. It was a dead end to the X-Men and the Marvel Universe as a whole. Hence fixing things.

[zonzorp]

There will never be another "first run Claremont", but Carey could easily manage a 75-100 issue run, if Marvel lets him.

Style and content wise he reminds me more of Tim Powers than anyone else.

[CmX]

There will never be another "first run Claremont", but Carey could easily manage a 75-100 issue run, if Marvel lets him.

These days Marvel doesn't let anyone do anything unless your name is Bendis and/or you've been affiliated with anything on tv or film.

[Brian M.]

These days Marvel doesn't let anyone do anything unless your name is Bendis and/or you've been affiliated with anything on tv or film.

To be fair to Bendis, he's earned the runs he's done. All of them have been very good.

[david r]

To be fair to Bendis, he's earned the runs he's done. All of them have been very good.

:eek: :eek: :confused: :(

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Because there really was no way to follow them up. There was no where to go. X-Men/Mutants shouldn't dominate the Marvel Universe. You do that, it makes the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc... unneccessary. It was a dead end to the X-Men and the Marvel Universe as a whole. Hence fixing things.

It really didn't. How is it a dead end ? How does it make the Fantastic Four , Avengers and others unneccessary. Hell you have the 50 state initative by Tony Stark happening now. So no...if anything would make the Fantastic Four , Avengers and Spiderman unneccary its this because its almost the same thing in a way.

Just be honest....they had no clue how to do what Morrison had done and handle things this way. So they went back to the old hat as usual. The old cards they usually played. Theres nothing wrong with it...but saying its a dead end is saying what Marvel now is doing is a dead end but they seem to have it plotted out.

[Brian M.]

:eek: :eek: :confused: :(

Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-Man all are very good runs.

New Avengers is also quite good.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

To be fair to Bendis, he's earned the runs he's done. All of them have been very good.

His New Avengers and House of M wasn't very good . He's good on solo characters like Ultimate Spiderman and Daredevil but his team books lack.

[Brian M.]

His New Avengers and House of M wasn't very good . He's good on solo characters like Ultimate Spiderman and Daredevil but his team books lack.

Agree to disagree. New Avengers for me is one of my favorite books.

[david r]

Back on topic, I think the only way Mike Carey could be called "the new Claremont" is if he stays onboard for 5 years. At the LEAST 5 years. With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered. If he can actually BUILD SOMETHING memorable, then Mike Carey could be mentioned in the same breath with Lee, Thomas, Claremont, Byrne, and Morrison.

[Novaya Havoc]

You rate 10 issues of a single title above 17 years of multiple titles, ground-breaking story strands and classic character moments?

...oooookay.

I do.

1010010101

[david r]

I picked up Mike Carey's first X-Men issue and was uniformly unimpressed. it wasn't bad, just meh. Nothing special at all.

I've scanned the odd issues since, and still see nothing groundbreaking or spectacular. And once again, a new writer writes self-consciously "hip" dialogue that the X-Men themselves would never say. So I don't see Mike being "the new Lobdell", let alone the new Claremont.

[david r]

There will never be another "first run Claremont", but Carey could easily manage a 75-100 issue run, if Marvel lets him.

Style and content wise he reminds me more of Tim Powers than anyone else.

You are Zonzorp. You live for all-things Sage.

Why is there a Bugs Bunny saying in your sig?
:p

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Back on topic, I think the only way Mike Carey could be called "the new Claremont" is if he stays onboard for 5 years. At the LEAST 5 years. With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered. If he can actually BUILD SOMETHING memorable, then Mike Carey could be mentioned in the same breath with Lee, Thomas, Claremont, Byrne, and Morrison.

Carey reminds me thus far of Scott Lobell. I'm sorry thats the truth. The using of 90's characters like Exodus and Cable , mixed in with some older ones gives me a vibe he's more or less the 2nd coming of Scott Lobell. And Lobell didn't do half bad....he had a 5 year run on both books.

[xmanson]

Bah, carey's dialogue, pseudo-hip as it may be (not that much, in my opinion), is leagues above the retard speech pattern vomited by Bendis' characters on monthly basis, specially in NA.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I picked up Mike Carey's first X-Men issue and was uniformly unimpressed. it wasn't bad, just meh. Nothing special at all.

I've scanned the odd issues since, and still see nothing groundbreaking or spectacular. And once again, a new writer writes self-consciously "hip" dialogue that the X-Men themselves would never say. So I don't see Mike being "the new Lobdell", let alone the new Claremont.

His 1st arc was ok . Its not like Brubaker's saga he's laying down for us. His 2nd arc " Infection " less so. Not into the villain or what happened to Rogue at all. Now the Annual he did bringing back Exodus was pretty damn good . I enjoyed the Annual.

[Canemacar]

Carey reminds me thus far of Scott Lobell. I'm sorry thats the truth. The using of 90's characters like Exodus and Cable , mixed in with some older ones gives me a vibe he's more or less the 2nd coming of Scott Lobell. And Lobell didn't do half bad....he had a 5 year run on both books.

The primary difference between Carey and Lobdell is that Carey is a talented writer who has a respect for the characters and their history. I seriously doubt we'll see any Uncanny #350 kind of retcons from Carey.

[david r]

Bah, carey's dialogue, pseudo-hip as it may be (not that much, in my opinion), is leagues above the retard speech pattern vomited by Bendis' characters on monthly basis, specially in NA.

I would agree.

Bendis' insistence on "The hell?" or "Uhhh......yeah" or "<insert sex joke>" in the mouths of Earth's Mightiest Heroes is what drove me off New Avengers. Snarky, self-consciously hip dialogue may be how BMB speaks, it is NOT how the Avengers speak.

Mike Carey is a far more intelligent writer.

[david r]

His 1st arc was ok . Its not like Brubaker's saga he's laying down for us. His 2nd arc " Infection " less so. Not into the villain or what happened to Rogue at all.

I'm noticing similarities with Mike Carey's debut, and Joss Whedon. When Whedon hit the stands, X-fans thought he was the Second Coming of Grant Morrison. X-fans gushed about his characterization, and so on.

But with each passing month, and each late issue, a trend against Joss Whedon began to emerge, and now he is no longer the X-Savior he was once hailed to be. I wonder if Mike Carey might follow the same trail?

[xmanson]

I would agree.

Bendis' insistence on "The hell?" or "Uhhh......yeah" or "<insert sex joke>" in the mouths of Earth's Mightiest Heroes is what drove me off New Avengers. Snarky, self-consciously hip dialogue may be how BMB speaks, it is NOT how the Avengers speak.

I really don't get it when people call that kind of dialogue realistic. Thank God my friends and family don't talk like that. Not until some amount of alcohol is consumed, at least.

But with each passing month, and each late issue, a trend against Joss Whedon began to emerge, and now he is no longer the X-Savior he was once hailed to be.

I never re ally got all the comparing Whedon toi Morrison, besides having roughly the same team, they had nothing alike. Whedon is pure Kitty fanboyism mixed with some great characterization and horrible plotting and pace.

Morison had a much different feeling, ideas and execution.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The primary difference between Carey and Lobdell is that Carey is a talented writer who has a respect for the characters and their history. I seriously doubt we'll see any Uncanny #350 kind of retcons from Carey.

Ok how do we know Lobdell didn't like the characters ? He was coming on in a period where Harras wanted the X-Books to match the cartoon and keep the golden goose running. Yeah he had clunkers in there but he wrote some good stories as well . For all the hell he recieves the man came into a difficult position and could have been replaced at any point but he kept the franchise humming for 5 years.

[Greg Anderson]

I was in love with Carey's writing before he came on X-Men. I absolutely LOVED his Hellblazer: John Constantine stuff but hated his Ultimate X-Men/Fantasic 4 mini. So hearing that he was going to be writing X-Men, the first thing I thought about was the Ult. X/F4 book and wasn't interested. When the first issue came out, I bought it anyway and didn't really like it as much as everyone else on the boards were and I hated Bachalo's art. It was until maybe the third issue that Carey's X-Men started to grow on me and I fell in love with Bachalo's art the minute that fill-in artist jumped in for that one issue. Now, X-Men is one of the books that I look forward to every month and it's always a great please to read his stuff. Just awesome stories indeed.

Him as the new Claremont... I don't think that's fair to say just yet. It's only been a few issues that he's written, and although I can not get into Claremont's writing at all for some reason, he's still established a lot for the book today and I'm more than willing to support Carey to reach that "Claremont" level. :)

[Brian M.]

Back on topic, I think the only way Mike Carey could be called "the new Claremont" is if he stays onboard for 5 years. At the LEAST 5 years. With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered. If he can actually BUILD SOMETHING memorable, then Mike Carey could be mentioned in the same breath with Lee, Thomas, Claremont, Byrne, and Morrison.

I don't think you can call anyone the next Claremont and it's unfair to do so. It's like crowing the next Micheal Jordan or the next Joe Montana...their will never be another one. If you call Carey the new Claremont and he say, doesn't stay on the title for 5 years than is he a failure?

Lets not jump to calling him the new Claremont just yet, he's only been on 10 issues. Whedon's been on longer than that.

[Brian M.]

Back on topic, I think the only way Mike Carey could be called "the new Claremont" is if he stays onboard for 5 years. At the LEAST 5 years. With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered. If he can actually BUILD SOMETHING memorable, then Mike Carey could be mentioned in the same breath with Lee, Thomas, Claremont, Byrne, and Morrison.

I don't think you can call anyone the next Claremont and it's unfair to do so. It's like crowing the next Micheal Jordan or the next Joe Montana...their will never be another one. If you call Carey the new Claremont and he say, doesn't stay on the title for 5 years than is he a failure?

Lets not jump to calling him the new Claremont just yet, he's only been on 10 issues. Whedon's been on longer than that.

[Faded]

Back on topic, I think the only way Mike Carey could be called "the new Claremont" is if he stays onboard for 5 years. At the LEAST 5 years. With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered. If he can actually BUILD SOMETHING memorable, then Mike Carey could be mentioned in the same breath with Lee, Thomas, Claremont, Byrne, and Morrison.

I think its so much better for him to not be trying to paint the next Mona Lisa badly and doing what he does well.

As someone who is tired of events, I'm glad there's very little "...AND SOMEONE DIES" or whatev.


Bendis' insistence on "The hell?" or "Uhhh......yeah" or "<insert sex joke>" in the mouths of Earth's Mightiest Heroes is what drove me off New Avengers. Snarky, self-consciously hip dialogue may be how BMB speaks, it is NOT how the Avengers speak.[/B]

I'm not a big fan of Bendis' dialogue, but I think him trying to modernize the way characters speak isn't exactly a terrible thing.

That he has bad taste in bad characters?

Oh WHATEVER! Why don't you just like your lame characters and let everyone else like theirs?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm noticing similarities with Mike Carey's debut, and Joss Whedon. When Whedon hit the stands, X-fans thought he was the Second Coming of Grant Morrison. X-fans gushed about his characterization, and so on.

But with each passing month, and each late issue, a trend against Joss Whedon began to emerge, and now he is no longer the X-Savior he was once hailed to be. I wonder if Mike Carey might follow the same trail?

Joss the moment he said he was only gonna stay on 12 issues wasn't looked at as a savior from what I remember. People just loved his 1st story-arc for the most part. All he claimed he wanted was his run to be a bookend to Morrison's run. Nothing more. I think the 1st arc had fans really believing Joss would stay on longer as he locked up 12 more issues. but he didn't.

Whoever the next X-Writer is ( my moneys on Heinberg ) he may try and do a bookend run to what Morrison & Whedon done.

The funniest thing was the guy in my LCS shop last year telling me he had dropped the X-Titles when CC came back on #444 and that he thought Austen was doing better soap opera plots than Claremont at this stage. It made me chuckle a lot.

[Canemacar]

Ok how do we know Lobdell didn't like the characters ? He was coming on in a period where Harras wanted the X-Books to match the cartoon and keep the golden goose running. Yeah he had clunkers in there but he wrote some good stories as well . For all the hell he recieves the man came into a difficult position and could have been replaced at any point but he kept the franchise humming for 5 years.

Lobdell couldn't close a story to save his life. He could do a pretty good job with the set-up and could write some emotional character beats, but they pay off was almost always a disappointment. He also tended to abuse certain characters(like Colossus and the Rasputins) and had some questionable characterization(for example; he often wrote Gambit as an impulsive, "leap before you look" type instead of the cool-headed and patient person he was established as).

[Novaya Havoc]

I think its so much better for him to not be trying to paint the next Mona Lisa badly and doing what he does well.

As someone who is tired of events, I'm glad there's very little "...AND SOMEONE DIES" or whatev.



I'm not a big fan of Bendis' dialogue, but I think him trying to modernize the way characters speak isn't exactly a terrible thing.



Oh WHATEVER! Why don't you just like your lame characters and let everyone else like theirs?

Man, Faded! You go Girl!

The CC fanatics are in full force this week. It's really killing my buzz, man.

*takes a hit with Dazzler*

[Hi-Fi]

With the same high quality in each and every issue, month in and month out.
Er...Claremont first run was great overall, but to say it was perfect issue after issue...

If he does two years then splits, Mike Carey will not be much remembered.
Says who? He's already unforgettable to me.

I picked up Mike Carey's first X-Men issue and was uniformly unimpressed. it wasn't bad, just meh. Nothing special at all.

I've scanned the odd issues since, and still see nothing groundbreaking or spectacular.
Since you get impressed by stuff like CC's Fantastic Four, I'm glad we're not impressed by the same stuff.

And once again, a new writer writes self-consciously "hip" dialogue that the X-Men themselves would never say. So I don't see Mike being "the new Lobdell", let alone the new Claremont.
Hip dialogue?? You mean, fresh? Interesting? Fun to read?

And LOL! And I guess the kind of dialogue Claremont writes would be something people would say? And Mike is already miles better than Lobdell.

I'm noticing similarities with Mike Carey's debut, and Joss Whedon. When Whedon hit the stands, X-fans thought he was the Second Coming of Grant Morrison. X-fans gushed about his characterization, and so on.

But with each passing month, and each late issue, a trend against Joss Whedon began to emerge, and now he is no longer the X-Savior he was once hailed to be. I wonder if Mike Carey might follow the same trail?
It seems that you're rooting for it.

Anyway, with all due respect to Pete, I don't like this thread and I don't think we should be comparing Carey to Claremont at all.

[Omega Alpha]

Shame it led to a dead end though. Good though Morrisson was, he left the franchis in a bad state.

No, he left it with more storywise potential than the X-men had in lots of time, if not ever, and the franchise had storylines potential for decades just by exploring his ideas. Not to mention that, retconning the Xorneto thing, pretty much all the stories which were told before him could still be told.


Being a misunderstood minority is what the X-men are all about. Thats what makes them relevant and relateable. If you take that away they become simply generic superheros.


Mutantkind was 0,25% of the world population, if that's not enough to be considered a minority, what is? And there would be always the Sublimes around to make their lives a complete hell.




It really didn't. How is it a dead end ? How does it make the Fantastic Four , Avengers and others unneccessary. Hell you have the 50 state initative by Tony Stark happening now. So no...if anything would make the Fantastic Four , Avengers and Spiderman unneccary its this because its almost the same thing in a way.

Exactly, if anything, they made the X-men unecessary. There are so few mutants that they are irrelevant to the MU


just be honest....they had no clue how to do what Morrison had done and handle things this way. So they went back to the old hat as usual. The old cards they usually played. Theres nothing wrong with it...but saying its a dead end is saying what Marvel now is doing is a dead end but they seem to have it plotted out.

And, of course, the fact that Joe Q hates Morrison as a person and they argued in public has nothing to do with the fact that Marvel tried to destroy his ideas. It's just a coincidence, and if he stayed on Marvel or was the best friend of Joe Q they would have done the exact same thing.

Lobdell couldn't close a story to save his life. He could do a pretty good job with the set-up and could write some emotional character beats, but they pay off was almost always a disappointment. He also tended to abuse certain characters(like Colossus and the Rasputins) and had some questionable characterization(for example; he often wrote Gambit as an impulsive, "leap before you look" type instead of the cool-headed and patient person he was established as).

Exactly. Not to mention, nearly all his storylines sucked (whether in the set-up or the payoff), even if he had some good takes on a few characters, and i don't remember any other X-writer with so few guts to dare and try to move the franchise forward. See the Onslaught fiasco, for example.

[Novaya Havoc]

Er...Claremont first run was great overall, but to say it was perfect issue after issue...

Hi-Fi: 1
Zombies: 0


Since you get impressed by stuff like CC's Fantastic Four, I'm glad we're not impressed by the same stuff.


Hi-Fi: 3
Zombies: 0


Hip dialogue?? You mean, fresh? Interesting? Fun to read?
I guess the kind of dialogue Claremont writes would be something people would say?


Hi-Fi: 7
Zombies: 0

Anyway, with all due respect to Pete, I don't like this thread and I don't think we should be comparing Carey to Claremont at all.

Hi-Fi: 25
Thread: 0

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Since you get impressed by stuff like CC's Fantastic Four, I'm glad we're not impressed by the same stuff.


I'm no huge CC fanatic but his FF run in 1998-1999 was something I enjoyed as well. It was a pretty solid run for when the Fantastic Four returned after Heroes Reborn til Mark Waid came on board in 2002.

[Hi-Fi]

I'm no huge CC fanatic but his FF run in 1998-1999 was something I enjoyed as well. It was a pretty solid run for when the Fantastic Four returned after Heroes Reborn til Mark Waid came on board in 2002.
I thought it was totally lame. See, it's all relative.;)

But if people can get defensive about CC by attacking Carey's writing, I'll proudly do the same for Mike. I can get pretty defensive about my favorite writer as well. :cool:

Again, evil thread.

[Ice_Cold_Emma_Frost]

I'm not a CC fan

so comparing Carey to him, especially now, is an insult

[CmX]

Carey reminds me thus far of Scott Lobell. I'm sorry thats the truth.

Uh sorry that's not the truth.

He uses the same characters as Lodbell? Who.. the X-Men?

[Jake V]

I'm no huge CC fanatic but his FF run in 1998-1999 was something I enjoyed as well. It was a pretty solid run for when the Fantastic Four returned after Heroes Reborn til Mark Waid came on board in 2002.

You were a Chuck Austen fan.


No clever quip or anything, just putting it out there.

[Chiasm]

I became a comic book addict because of Claremont. And I'm talking prime Claremont not latter day Claremont.

Carey's stuff now is enjoyable. But one must remember that he is replacing the unholy -he that shall not be named- writer that came before. Anything would look pulitzer worthy after that drek. Its not fair to Carey to even associate his name with the unholy - he that shall not be named - but thems the breaks.

Could Carey's stuff one day be on a par with Claremont's best? I think its way too soon to tell. But in the meantime his stuff is at the very least readable, enjoyable, and doesn't tempt me to use as toilet paper as the former writers did.

[Kalen O.]

But one must remember that he is replacing the unholy -he that shall not be named- writer that came before. Anything would look pulitzer worthy after that drek.

Not true. Considering that he that shall not be named can only be Milligan, and HE came right after he that really REALLY should not be named, aka Austen....and it certainly didn't help HIS drek look pulitzer worthy.

The defense rests. Carey rocks. 'Nuff said.

[Chiasm]

Not true. Considering that he that shall not be named can only be Milligan, and HE came right after he that really REALLY should not be named, aka Austen....and it certainly didn't help HIS drek look pulitzer worthy.

The defense rests. Carey rocks. 'Nuff said.

A dark and stormy night >>> Austen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Milligan

Nuff said.

(Carey does look promising though)

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think Carey is more like the new Morrison than the new Claremont.

I find that hard to agree with. Morrison made a lot of sweeping change to the X-Titles which didn't fit with the 'feel' of the X-Men from the previous decades. He had a model which he wanted to make the X-Men fit into, and he made them fit it. It was far from an organic process - in some cases it wasn't even explained - but he did it. There was a very definite vibe that made the series 'Morrison's X-Men'. But it was Morrison's. And a lot of that period has now been dropped in favour of a return to the X-Men of old.

Morrison wanted to make a name for himself with the X-Men. I don't think Carey comes across with that kind of agenda. He's not got that manifesto, that way of how HE wants to do it. He's working with what's already there, and making it work. Morrison, though I'm not criticising his effectiveness, did not work this way.

There will never be another "first run Claremont", but Carey could easily manage a 75-100 issue run, if Marvel lets him.

And I think that is more the issue. If they LET him. Marvel seem to like juggling thier creative teams every six months these days...

To be fair to Bendis, he's earned the runs he's done. All of them have been very good.

I mostly agree with that. Maybe he stayed on Daredevil a little bit longer than he should have, but by and large his work has always been consistent. It comes down more to whether or not you like his style.

So I don't see Mike being "the new Lobdell", let alone the new Claremont.

Surely to be the new Lobdell all you have to do is read the your predeccessors work and try to destroy it all as clunkilly as possible...:rolleyes: :D

[Beast]

Oh WHATEVER! Why don't you just like your lame characters and let everyone else like theirs?
Jesus, do I need to bring back the winky smile for every joke? Don't spaz out on me.

[DDM]

The line is spread too wide for anyone to have that huge of an impact nowadays.

With the numerous X-Men books coupled with the editorial interference, I don't think Carey will have any lasting impact at all. Carey must first remain on X-Men for at least five years to have a minimal impact.

I don't think the comparison to Chris Claremont's original 17 year stint on Uncanny X-Men is valid because he primarily charted the X-Men characters himself with the only mutant book being published. Chris Claremont added to make mutant a franchise with The New Mutants (w/ the Magik LS) (1982), Wolverine (1982 & 1988), & Excalibur (1987).

Today, with Astonishing X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Men, X-Factor, New Exacalibur Exiles, & TWO ongoing Wolverine series virtually all the books have different writers going in different directions. Given these circumstances, X-Men will have little impact at all in the long run.

[Mariah]

Lobdell couldn't close a story to save his life. He could do a pretty good job with the set-up and could write some emotional character beats, but they pay off was almost always a disappointment. He also tended to abuse certain characters(like Colossus and the Rasputins) and had some questionable characterization(for example; he often wrote Gambit as an impulsive, "leap before you look" type instead of the cool-headed and patient person he was established as).
I feel the same way about Morrison, and Miller. Great set-up, shitty pay off. Almost all of his JLA was bogged with this. And I enjoyed Lobdell's characterization of Gambit. It's his and Nic's Rogue's that I didn't agree with.

[Will.S]

I find that hard to agree with. Morrison made a lot of sweeping change to the X-Titles which didn't fit with the 'feel' of the X-Men from the previous decades. He had a model which he wanted to make the X-Men fit into, and he made them fit it. It was far from an organic process - in some cases it wasn't even explained - but he did it. There was a very definite vibe that made the series 'Morrison's X-Men'. But it was Morrison's. And a lot of that period has now been dropped in favour of a return to the X-Men of old.

Morrison wanted to make a name for himself with the X-Men. I don't think Carey comes across with that kind of agenda. He's not got that manifesto, that way of how HE wants to do it. He's working with what's already there, and making it work. Morrison, though I'm not criticising his effectiveness, did not work this way.
While Mike doesn't operate the same way as Grant, I see he's continuing the Morrison'esque style of introducing wacky new ideas and making them work. The Children, the Mummudrai, and just the way he bounces around several big concepts at once.

[Beast]

While Mike doesn't operate the same way as Grant, I see he's continuing the Morrison'esque style of introducing wacky new ideas and making them work. The Children, the Mummudrai, and just the way he bounces around several big concepts at once.
Those arn't new ideas by any stretch of the imagination. Just new takes on older ones.

[Sentinel K]

Anyway, with all due respect to Pete, I don't like this thread and I don't think we should be comparing Carey to Claremont at all.

I never really intended for the WRITING to be compared to Claremont.

It just seemed that with Carey getting the one-shot, and with Sinister, who is appearing in the big X-event, cropping up in Carey's title, Marvel appears, perhaps, to be putting the franchise in his hands.

Thats not to say they are.

It was just a thought that occured to me.

[Hi-Fi]

I never really intended for the WRITING to be compared to Claremont.

It just seemed that with Carey getting the one-shot, and with Sinister, who is appearing in the big X-event, cropping up in Carey's title, Marvel appears, perhaps, to be putting the franchise in his hands.

Thats not to say they are.

It was just a thought that occured to me.
No worries, I got your intention.

[jarrod]

While Mike doesn't operate the same way as Grant, I see he's continuing the Morrison'esque style of introducing wacky new ideas and making them work. The Children, the Mummudrai, and just the way he bounces around several big concepts at once.
Well, context is part of it too. I'd have to disagree with Sword slightly, in that I think Morrison more than anybody was as close as we've gotten to a "new Claremont". Sure, the pace was quicker and the stay shorter but that seems to be par for the course with how the medium's evolved since 1975... both men really seemed to take an established concept and make it completely their own, pushing the medium forward alongside.

I absolutely adore Carey's X-Men but he doesn't at all "own" them like Claremont and Morrison did. If anything he seems to be delivering Claremontian stories with a modern sensibility... I love his work because in ways it feels like a throwback to better times and it's highly nostalgic despite dealing with newer characters and scenarios. Maybe it's the best a franchise like the X-Men can hope for these days, but whatever the case, I do hope he sticks around a long, long time.

[Nyssane]

I keep seeing this title and thinking "Caney: the new Claremont?" Heehee, Caney's a superSTAR.

[DDM]

I never really intended for the WRITING to be compared to Claremont.

It just seemed that with Carey getting the one-shot, and with Sinister, who is appearing in the big X-event, cropping up in Carey's title, Marvel appears, perhaps, to be putting the franchise in his hands.

Thats not to say they are.

It was just a thought that occured to me.

The X-Men franchise is being pulled to bits precisely because several writers are pulling from the same pot; whereas, Chris Claremont, largely, was the only writer for several books at a time ranging from Uncanny X-Men (the source book) to The New Mutants, Excalibur, Wolverine LS & ongoing years later, Magik LS, X-Men vs Fantastic Four #1-4 (1987), X-Men-Micronauts #1-4 w/ Bill Mantlo, & Classic X-Men....

Is Carey the new Claremont? No. Chris Claremont pulled a marginalized, unpopular failure into a juggernaut, mainstream success. However, the editors allowed Chris Claremont to take chances with characters & placing them in different situations such as transforming Marvel Girl into Phoenix & Dark Phoenix, developing Storm over several years from an unreachable goddess into a passionate, human woman, & had Xavier stay on the sidelines so the characters could grow without him, yet remain true to Xavier's dream.

Carey may be carrying Claremont's torch with Claremont's basic ideas, but I'm not so sure Carey is the "next Claremont." The editors still hurt many of the books they edit instead of help; for this reason, I expect them to arbitrarily fire Carey at some point or not renew his contract. Carey has some great ideas & know his continuity; however, the Marvel editors do not. Therefore, the editors--as the gatekeepers--sometimes throw the baby out with the bathwater & refuse to allow a writer to stay on the book to have his ideas perculate for a few years. The editors remain Marvel's big problem. For this reason, Carey will never be the "next Claremont."

[Canemacar]

I feel the same way about Morrison, and Miller. Great set-up, shitty pay off. Almost all of his JLA was bogged with this.

I agree somewhat. Morrison has some genuinely good ideas but he needs to work on the execution a bit. Miller's played out in my eyes though.

And I enjoyed Lobdell's characterization of Gambit. It's his and Nic's Rogue's that I didn't agree with.

His Gambit ran contrary to several aspects of the character I enjoy so much; his calculated nature (which is what his codename implies in the first place) and the fact that he ISN'T the thief with heart of gold he was written as a lot of the time. Lobdell is also responsible for a whole lot of the angst that plagued both Gambit and Rogue during the 90's.

Nic did some good work with Rogue here and there, IMO.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Uh sorry that's not the truth.

He uses the same characters as Lodbell? Who.. the X-Men?

The writing , the stories and characters...its Lodbell....again he's about as far from Claremont as Brubaker is. He hits some decent stories but he's not knocking HR's in 9 issues. Ok 10 issues counting the Annual. His 1st arc was pretty solid. The 2nd one not so....its like reading a Lobdell. Where he had some good stories ( Age of Apcolypse ) and some bad ones.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

You were a Chuck Austen fan.


No clever quip or anything, just putting it out there.

So.....its not like he didn't have a run that isn't talked about to this day. Maybe Carey will have a run that equals a Austen . I'm tired of this " because were online it sucked " b.s with Austen. Not everyone posts on an internet message board and it would shock many to know offline he had his fans.

[Jake V]

So.....its not like he didn't have a run that isn't talked about to this day.
People talk about how bad it was.

Maybe Carey will have a run that equals a Austen
He'll be forced out of the x-books and eventually forced out of the industry?

I'm tired of this " because were online it sucked " b.s with Austen. Not everyone posts on an internet message board and it would shock many to know offline he had his fans.
So we're supposed to take your word for it that there's this silent majority of Chuck Austen fans? This is why no one values your opinion.

[Hi-Fi]

The writing , the stories and characters...its Lodbell....again he's about as far from Claremont as Brubaker is. He hits some decent stories but he's not knocking HR's in 9 issues. Ok 10 issues counting the Annual. His 1st arc was pretty solid. The 2nd one not so....its like reading a Lobdell. Where he had some good stories ( Age of Apcolypse ) and some bad ones.

Wow. There's not a single thing in your post I can agree on. Lobdell stories were always character-driven (badly driven) while Carey's are plot-driven (with great character bits at the same time). I've yet to read a bad story by Carey. His second arc was praised by the majority of critics and it's not considered a "bad" story at all by the fans

[SUPERECWFAN1]

People talk about how bad it was.

Online which is where were chatting. Ask people who don't frequent a message board or go online. I have...it shocked me to see some did miss him leaving the titles.


He'll be forced out of the x-books and eventually forced out of the industry?

How was he forced out ? Nearly a 4 year run and over 30+ issues on 2 titles. He was forced off Avengers. Hell....barely anyone knew who he was when he came on the title. He was someone who thought " fill-in" ala Lobdell and stayed on the titles 3+ years. Yeah that poor son of a b-tch. I'd like to have a 3+ year run on Uncanny and make sweeping changes with Juggernaunt and Polaris.

So we're supposed to take your word for it that there's this silent majority of Chuck Austen fans? This is why no one values your opinion.

Yeah and your opinion makes me smile. Like "f-ck Austen Rah Rah Rah , he's the great satan ! " . Just because I don't bow down to the masses and follow a popular online feeling against Austen will never sway me. I follow my own likes and dislikes. I don't need the internet to tell me what comic to like.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Wow. There's not a single thing in your post I can agree on. Lobdell stories were always character-driven (badly driven) while Carey's are plot-driven (with great character bits at the same time). I've yet to read a bad story by Carey. His second arc was praised by the majority of critics and it's not considered a "bad" story at all by the fans

I didn't like the villain . I enjoyed " Supernova's" . I thought it and the team he had assembled was gonna be very awesome. But his 2nd arc...not so. Not into it. The Annual was very good. I thought he wrote Exodus and the reveal at the end of Sinister's return was pretty solid.

You think I'm gonna knock your feelings over X-Men completely enjoying Carey's work ? Nope...because he to me is doing a decent job. I'll need a lot more to read by him before I can overall get a feeling for his work.

Again there are things I enjoy and there isn't. I think outta Milligan's run I enjoyed 3 issues fully. I even gave him Golgatha as an opening arc and it blew monkey balls. The post Decimation issues I believe were what I enjoyed best from Milligan. ;)

[DrDoomX]

My take on this...no one is ever going to be the next Claremont...why?
Well heres the thing, I hate the term next this, or the next that....if some one becomes great, they become great on their own and not becoming the next of something. Look we donot call say Stephen King, the next poe...we call him Stephen King because he made a great name for himself. Same with Claremont, because no one will become him. He wrote his way, he wrote his style, and what not....Carey though I have yet to read his work, I am sure writes his own way, and if in years in the future is considered one of the greatest X writers of all time, well then he should be conisdered great on his own merits and not be the next Claremont...thats just my two cents.

[Maestro]

I would like to know if all the Carey fans here read his Lucifer or Crossing Midnight and what they think of it.

[Mister Mets]

Well, context is part of it too. I'd have to disagree with Sword slightly, in that I think Morrison more than anybody was as close as we've gotten to a "new Claremont". Sure, the pace was quicker and the stay shorter but that seems to be par for the course with how the medium's evolved since 1975... both men really seemed to take an established concept and make it completely their own, pushing the medium forward alongside.

I absolutely adore Carey's X-Men but he doesn't at all "own" them like Claremont and Morrison did. If anything he seems to be delivering Claremontian stories with a modern sensibility... I love his work because in ways it feels like a throwback to better times and it's highly nostalgic despite dealing with newer characters and scenarios. Maybe it's the best a franchise like the X-Men can hope for these days, but whatever the case, I do hope he sticks around a long, long time.
I agree with you on this, although I'd also agree with anyone who calls Carey the new Morrison.

[DDM]

I have no doubt Mike Carey will be the next Mike Carey.

[Brian M.]

I love your avatar DDM. Quite funny.

[david r]

Claremont is the Joe Torre of X-Men.

Just like the New York Yankees need skipper Joe Torre for the experience he brings, and how he works well with the team players, the X-Men need Claremont for the experience he brings, and his knowledge of all things X.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Claremont is the Joe Torre of X-Men.

Just like the New York Yankees need skipper Joe Torre for the experience he brings, and how he works well with the team players, the X-Men need Claremont for the experience he brings, and his knowledge of all things X.

I do think you make a valid point about Torrie and Claremont. At this point in time I think CC should be the full-time editor and part time writer of the X-Men. That he can contribute a story-arc here and there as a writer at times. But be the guy over the franchise...watching it and guiding it from there.

[streator]

I love your avatar DDM. Quite funny.

that's the first non-porno avatar i can recall for ddm. that's worth a little thread drift.

if not, i echo my earlier statement.

[david r]

Claremont is like Santa Claus.

Just like Christmas needs old Saint Nick for that Xmas time cheer, the X-Men need Chris (Kringle) Claremont to bring that XMen cheer.

[Will.S]

Those arn't new ideas by any stretch of the imagination. Just new takes on older ones.
Well the Children are kind of like the Neo but Mike's shown a unique enough origin behind them that it feels like a new concept even if it isn't which is cool with me. I really liked how he tied their release with M-Day which again shows how well Mike does when bringing in consequences from another book and spinning it in a way that works for him and the story he wants to tell.

Even Carey's Mummudrai concept seems much more different than what Morrison did with it, despite sharing the same name.

[Stephane Garrelie]

Well if they begin to take his characters away from him, yes, on this level Carey is the new Claremont.
Now i heard very good things about his run, and i'll probably buy it in trades.
Too bad i really don't like Humberto Ramos's art.
How many issues did Bachallo? is it rotating arc between Bachallo and Ramos now, or just Ramos?

[DasPoppen]

And, of course, the fact that Joe Q hates Morrison as a person and they argued in public has nothing to do with the fact that Marvel tried to destroy his ideas. It's just a coincidence, and if he stayed on Marvel or was the best friend of Joe Q they would have done the exact same thing.


Does Joe Q indeed hate Morrison?? What did they argue about?

[blinkinrogue]

i heard about that too... and i heard they exchanged heated words or something, anybody with details??

[jarrod]

Well the Children are kind of like the Neo but Mike's shown a unique enough origin behind them that it feels like a new concept even if it isn't which is cool with me.
Er, their origin was basically cribbed from Morrison's Weapon Plus storyline too.

Not to rag on Carey, but it's very much his delivery and use of prestablished concepts (not his original conceptions themselves) that's the strength here.

[AuroraNstar]

I do think you make a valid point about Torrie and Claremont. At this point in time I think CC should be the full-time editor and part time writer of the X-Men. That he can contribute a story-arc here and there as a writer at times. But be the guy over the franchise...watching it and guiding it from there.
I echo these sentiments. Claremont has just passed his prime. The books need new blood to reboot the titles. I mean, isn't that why he's shuffled off of books every couple years? Make him the line editor or something.

[DDM]

I echo these sentiments. Claremont has just passed his prime. The books need new blood to reboot the titles. I mean, isn't that why he's shuffled off of books every couple years? Make him the line editor or something.

The last time the X-Men books got "new blood" thanks to ambitious ex-x-editor, Bob Harras, all it did was knot up characters & storylines into one big nebulous mess. The blood seem to come from the editors & writers for a sacrificial lamb; the more hype came from with more sacrificial lambs. As a result, the X-Men's voice was lost. And the direction went in numerous directions simultaneously. The X-Men books were rebooted numerous times in a short time frame with each new writer. All that does is create more stagnation with the constant reboots.

Bob Harras rehired Claremont years later--with egg on his face--in an editorial capacity I think to fix the mess Harras engineered years earlier ; however, Claremont went back to writing, obviously his first love rather than editing in a short time.

My point is the last time an editor brought in "new blood" for the X-franchise, it turned into a bloody mess with Bob Harras holding the knife. Joe Quesada is no different than Bob Harras in this respect.

I don't think a second "new blood" will work until Marvel hires editors who know enough of the Marvel Universe history & hire competent writers.

[AuroraNstar]

The last time the X-Men books got "new blood" thanks to ambitious ex-x-editor, Bob Harras, all it did was knot up characters & storylines into one big nebulous mess. The blood seem to come from the editors & writers for a sacrificial lamb; the more hype came from with more sacrificial lambs. As a result, the X-Men's voice was lost. And the direction went in numerous directions simultaneously. The X-Men books were rebooted numerous times in a short time frame with each new writer. All that does is create more stagnation with the constant reboots.

Bob Harras rehired Claremont years later--with egg on his face--in an editorial capacity I think to fix the mess Harras engineered years earlier ; however, Claremont went back to writing, obviously his first love rather than editing in a short time.

My point is the last time an editor brought in "new blood" for the X-franchise, it turned into a bloody mess with Bob Harras holding the knife. Joe Quesada is no different than Bob Harras in this respect.

I don't think a second "new blood" will work until Marvel hires editors who know enough of the Marvel Universe history & hire competent writers.
I'd be all for Claremont to continue to write if his current stories were actually good. His current work is barely a pale reflection of his past works. I loved Claremont's older stuff, but with time, things change. Writing styles change. His hasn't. His characters become forced and we see the same plot elements over and over again. I'm not bashing the man, so people don't get all up in arms, I'm giving an unbiased opinion. I don't find his work relevant to his past work by far. And the stories in the nineties weren't all bad. We got Generation X, Niciezia's X-Force, John Francis Moore's X-Force, Peter David's X-Factor, Age of Apocolypse, Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle's run's, Wolverine getting the adamantium yanked from his skeleton(which was unfortunately reversed later) Operation: Zero Tolerance(while it didn't have the best ending, but had a killer build up) among other great stories.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I echo these sentiments. Claremont has just passed his prime. The books need new blood to reboot the titles. I mean, isn't that why he's shuffled off of books every couple years? Make him the line editor or something.

They really don't need to hire anyone at this point and time. They have Carey , Brubaker , Kyle & Yost as the set writers on the books. Claremont can be above them guiding the franchise in a manager role. I think he'd really enjoy Yost & Kyle's stuff which seems like a new era tribute to him with how they've used Stryker ,Nimrod and now Illyana.

The last time the X-Men books got "new blood" thanks to ambitious ex-x-editor, Bob Harras, all it did was knot up characters & storylines into one big nebulous mess. The blood seem to come from the editors & writers for a sacrificial lamb; the more hype came from with more sacrificial lambs. As a result, the X-Men's voice was lost. And the direction went in numerous directions simultaneously. The X-Men books were rebooted numerous times in a short time frame with each new writer. All that does is create more stagnation with the constant reboots.

Bob Harras rehired Claremont years later--with egg on his face--in an editorial capacity I think to fix the mess Harras engineered years earlier ; however, Claremont went back to writing, obviously his first love rather than editing in a short time.

My point is the last time an editor brought in "new blood" for the X-franchise, it turned into a bloody mess with Bob Harras holding the knife. Joe Quesada is no different than Bob Harras in this respect.

I don't think a second "new blood" will work until Marvel hires editors who know enough of the Marvel Universe history & hire competent writers.

The Editoral mistakes killed the Kelly & Seagle runs on the series by the late 90's. By 2000 they needed someone to write the franchise again (since many were relunctant to play with the editors , a fact Wizard Magazine detailed !) and CC had done a good job on Fantastic Four ( Reed in Doom's armor storyline was pretty damn good ) so he got the call. And they were his babies so it seemed like an ok idea to do it.

[Babylon23]

In one respect, Carey could be called the new Claremont in that he seems have been handed quite a bit of control over the x-franchise. However, it's not quite the same as Claremont, who had pretty much total control over the books through his 17 year run.

Generally speaking, I think only time will tell. Claremont had 17 years on the book, and established so many lasting contributions to the x-mythos that it's impossible to downplay his importance to the title. Like or dislike him as a writer, a lot of what he established is still the status quo 16 years after his initial run ended.

For me, this will be the telling point for Carey's run. He's off to an excellent start, and I hope that he has a nice long run. More importantly, though, I hope he can establish a lot of lasting ideas, thoughts and characters that help define the x-universe for the next 20 years. If he can achieve this, then I think a good case could be made for calling him the "next Claremont".

Of course, Morrison could have been the "next Claremont" if Marvel had chosen to follow through on his ideas instead of retconning most of them. Hopefully, when Carey's run concludes, Marvel won't feel the need to unwrite all of his plot and character points.

[DDM]

I'd be all for Claremont to continue to write if his current stories were actually good. His current work is barely a pale reflection of his past works. I loved Claremont's older stuff, but with time, things change. Writing styles change. His hasn't. His characters become forced and we see the same plot elements over and over again.

Chris Claremont is not retelling the same stories over again. He remains telling better stories; however, it seems that YOU have given up on Claremont. Well, it is your choice to give up on Chris Claremont's writing ability, but that is no reason to flush his current work down the toilet.

Timeless writing--as what Claremont has always written--survives fads. Fads are what you're talking about about "changing times." Given Claremont has been screwed over by Marvel so many times, I am surprised he remains at Marvel today. However, I believe he stays because he loves the characters. Claremont's love for the characters comes across in his stories.



I'm not bashing the man, so people don't get all up in arms, I'm giving an unbiased opinion. I don't find his work relevant to his past work by far.

I think you have given up on him which comes off more as bad faith than anything else.




And the stories in the nineties weren't all bad.

A large % of the 90's stories are crap because the editors focused on style (art) over susbtance (writers). Sure we got a few gems, but most of them are few & far between. The 90's is the equivilant of getting a lump a coal every year instead of a polished diamond. Marvel was telling us the coal was a diamond & that's the difference. You accepted Marvel giving you a lump of coal. I never accepted the low quality--maybe because I was spoiled on Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, The New Mutants, Excalibur, Louise Simonson's X-Factor & The New Mutants, & other wonderful books released in the 80's.

We got Generation X

Using Chris Claremont's The New Mutants as the template.


Niciezia's X-Force, John Francis Moore's X-Force

Where's Rob Liefeld? He is actually resposible for X-Force. Niciezia, Jeph Loeb, & John Francis Moore developed X-Force into a quality book, but this took years to do so.


Peter David's X-Factor

Peter David's X-Factor did not last since he left in #89. David did not stay on the book long enough, yet his stories remain on the diamonds I'm talking about earlier.


Age of Apocolypse

Despite the great story, Age of Apocalypse is a tangent since no one remembers it, not even Bishop. How can this story last if no character remembers anything? The character development goes back to square one.


Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle's run's

I don't have a firm opinion of these two writers X-Men work because the editorial interference caused them to quit abruptly. I like Joe Kelly's "Psi-War."

Wolverine getting the adamantium yanked from his skeleton(which was unfortunately reversed later)

I see this as one of Marvel's low points. The idea is interesting, but the execution is careless, using shock tactics in place of a good story.

Operation: Zero Tolerance(while it didn't have the best ending, but had a killer build up) among other great stories.

Operation Zero Tolerance had potential, but I read it as anticlimactic. I deduced Bastion to be Nimrod & the Master Mold far earlier as well; therefore, all of it was a waste of good potential. Personally, I would have liked Bastion not being linked to Nimrod & Master Mold at all. I would have liked Bastion to being a secret Sentinel technology made real in some way.

[AuroraNstar]

Chris Claremont is not retelling the same stories over again. He remains telling better stories; however, it seems that YOU have given up on Claremont. Well, it is your choice to give up on Chris Claremont's writing ability, but that is no reason to flush his current work down the toilet.

Timeless writing--as what Claremont has always written--survives fads. Fads are what you're talking about about "changing times." Given Claremont has been screwed over by Marvel so many times, I am surprised he remains at Marvel today. However, I believe he stays because he loves the characters. Claremont's love for the characters comes across in his stories.





I think you have given up on him which comes off more as bad faith than anything else.
I'm sorry, but there are only so many stories involving the shadow king and possessing people before stories start to all feel the same. I'm sorry, but his work is not as good as it used to be. But thanks for telling me what I'm thinking and feeling.

You can write timeless stories while being a slave to continuity, but if the story aren't compelling or fresh, it comes off weak, and stale. Look at Mark Waid, and Kurt Busiek and Geoff Johns. They are now what Claremont used to be at his peak.

But I'm not going to change your unbiased opinion, and you aren't going to change mine. So, I'm leaving it alone.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Chris Claremont is not retelling the same stories over again. He remains telling better stories; however, it seems that YOU have given up on Claremont. Well, it is your choice to give up on Chris Claremont's writing ability, but that is no reason to flush his current work down the toilet.

I think his New Excalibur work is his best X-Work in years. And thats saying something here. He was starting a good run on the book and if it wasn't for his heart problems he would have knocked a HR with it. But he came back and did a shocking suprise arc with Nocturne . It shocked me as I had to make sure it was Chris Claremont giving a character a stroke now.

He can be hit and miss now DDM. His X-Run in 2000 was a Miss , his Uncanny run from #444-454 was pretty solid til he went to the Savage Land . Then it seemingly started a downhil slide til End of Greys.

Timeless writing--as what Claremont has always written--survives fads. Fads are what you're talking about about "changing times." Given Claremont has been screwed over by Marvel so many times, I am surprised he remains at Marvel today. However, I believe he stays because he loves the characters. Claremont's love for the characters comes across in his stories.

Its not fads so to speak its about peoples tastes changing and the business changing storyline wise. Now books are written for TPB in 6 to 9 issue story-arcs and any plot that exists longer than 20 issues and is drawn out doesn't seem to exist now. If it does you gotta keep the fans hooked with said plot.

Its true he does get screwed over by Marvel at times. But so does others by both companies. He loves the characters but Claremont gets the same treatment the others get.

I think you have given up on him which comes off more as bad faith than anything else.

Can you blame him though ? I mean I nearly gave up on Claremont following his X-Run in 2000.


A large % of the 90's stories are crap because the editors focused on style (art) over susbtance (writers). Sure we got a few gems, but most of them are few & far between. The 90's is the equivilant of getting a lump a coal every year instead of a polished diamond. Marvel was telling us the coal was a diamond & that's the difference. You accepted Marvel giving you a lump of coal. I never accepted the low quality--maybe because I was spoiled on Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men, The New Mutants, Excalibur, Louise Simonson's X-Factor & The New Mutants, & other wonderful books released in the 80's.

Which is fine. I can understand why you enjoyed his work from the 80's. I'm slowly building a collection on his work around then. It was pretty good stuff he did then.

Where's Rob Liefeld? He is actually resposible for X-Force. Niciezia, Jeph Loeb, & John Francis Moore developed X-Force into a quality book, but this took years to do so.

As much scorn as Liefeld gets he should be thanked . The book was near the canceled line and he rode in and did his wild art on it. I have a few of the X-Force road issues John Francis Moore did.

Despite the great story, Age of Apocalypse is a tangent since no one remembers it, not even Bishop. How can this story last if no character remembers anything? The character development goes back to square one.

But yet its considered a great story for its time and had some books dedicated to it last year. So no one remebers it. It was an alternative universe and you see that Blink has broken free of it and now stars in Exiles. Its impact has lasted long after its supposed to.


I don't have a firm opinion of these two writers X-Men work because the editorial interference caused them to quit abruptly. I like Joe Kelly's "Psi-War."

I loved when Marrow stabbed Wolverine. That was pretty f-cking intense.

[Faded]

I'd be all for Claremont to continue to write if his current stories were actually good. His current work is barely a pale reflection of his past works. I loved Claremont's older stuff, but with time, things change. Writing styles change. His hasn't. His characters become forced and we see the same plot elements over and over again. I'm not bashing the man, so people don't get all up in arms, I'm giving an unbiased opinion. I don't find his work relevant to his past work by far. And the stories in the nineties weren't all bad. We got Generation X, Niciezia's X-Force, John Francis Moore's X-Force, Peter David's X-Factor, Age of Apocolypse, Joe Kelly and Steven Seagle's run's, Wolverine getting the adamantium yanked from his skeleton(which was unfortunately reversed later) Operation: Zero Tolerance(while it didn't have the best ending, but had a killer build up) among other great stories.

Preach, sexy twins, preach!

I think the only gripe I would have of the nineties is if I bought everything and enjoyed nothing. Taking the good with the bad, I'm satisfied with the stories post-Claremont's 'golden era'.

Timeless writing--as what Claremont has always written--survives fads. Fads are what you're talking about about "changing times." Given Claremont has been screwed over by Marvel so many times, I am surprised he remains at Marvel today. However, I believe he stays because he loves the characters. Claremont's love for the characters comes across in his stories.

Fads have ALWAYS been present. Whether its 90's hair or 80's mullets, they do exist. Sometimes I feel like only the horrible ones of the 90's are really acknowledged. Rogue had frickin' 90's hair in the 80's! ;)

I honestly think the X-Men material published so far either is dated--or will be dated (but its too soon to tell right now). References, style....later generations just might not get it (n00bs alike love and hate CC's old style).

Despite the great story, Age of Apocalypse is a tangent since no one remembers it, not even Bishop. How can this story last if no character remembers anything? The character development goes back to square one.

As long as the readers remember it fondly, I think that's all that really matters.

And then there's a whole bunch of other quotes, but blah blah blah. We GET IT ALREADY. The point is: Marrow ROX. ;)

Fin.

[Omega Alpha]

Does Joe Q indeed hate Morrison?? What did they argue about?

He does, and they argued after Quesada find out Morrison had signed a contract with DC and was leaving Marvel, but i'm not sure if that was the only reason for the argument.

[Faded]

Er, their origin was basically cribbed from Morrison's Weapon Plus storyline too.

Not to rag on Carey, but it's very much his delivery and use of prestablished concepts (not his original conceptions themselves) that's the strength here.

I say this with much love to Carey, but I agree. His strength really is taking what already exists and strengthening it--which is what the X-Men needs IMO. It's been evolutionized, revitalized, revolutioned, and reloaded repeatedly already. Right now we just need someone to make it good.

Jesus, do I need to bring back the winky smile for every joke? Don't spaz out on me.

SPAZZING?!!1 Whose spazzing?!

I was very calmly being bitchy, thanksvrymuch. *winky*

I do think you make a valid point about Torrie and Claremont. At this point in time I think CC should be the full-time editor and part time writer of the X-Men. That he can contribute a story-arc here and there as a writer at times. But be the guy over the franchise...watching it and guiding it from there.

I wholeheartedly disagree. I much prefer giving him to-the-left, to-the-left titles where he has room to breathe (as much as I am not looking forward to his direction for Exiles from the interview). I think while a lot of people criticize Claremont's dialogue or even pacing most, I have just disliked the directions he's taken the books/characters. That's just personal preference though--I'm sure people would want an editor who likes what they like as well.

[Will.S]

Er, their origin was basically cribbed from Morrison's Weapon Plus storyline too.

Not to rag on Carey, but it's very much his delivery and use of prestablished concepts (not his original conceptions themselves) that's the strength here.
So you can see why he's leaning a bit more towards a Morrison'ish territory rather than a Chris Claremont one.

[AuroraNstar]

Preach, sexy twins, preach!

I think the only gripe I would have of the nineties is if I bought everything and enjoyed nothing. Taking the good with the bad, I'm satisfied with the stories post-Claremont's 'golden era'.
lol, Thanks! Me too. I try not to get bogged down on the bad stuff, and remember all the good stuff.


Fads have ALWAYS been present. Whether its 90's hair or 80's mullets, they do exist. Sometimes I feel like only the horrible ones of the 90's are really acknowledged. Rogue had frickin' 90's hair in the 80's! ;)
Exactly. I mean, style's come and go like hammer pants, and high top fades.
I honestly think the X-Men material published so far either is dated--or will be dated (but its too soon to tell right now). References, style....later generations just might not get it (n00bs alike love and hate CC's old style).
My sentiments exactly.


As long as the readers remember it fondly, I think that's all that really matters.
I know I really remember it fondly!
And then there's a whole bunch of other quotes, but blah blah blah. We GET IT ALREADY. The point is: Marrow ROX. ;)

Fin.
She does indeed! She, and Cecilia Reyes and Sabra all rock thoroughly!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Fads have ALWAYS been present. Whether its 90's hair or 80's mullets, they do exist. Sometimes I feel like only the horrible ones of the 90's are really acknowledged. Rogue had frickin' 90's hair in the 80's! ;)

I honestly think the X-Men material published so far either is dated--or will be dated (but its too soon to tell right now). References, style....later generations just might not get it (n00bs alike love and hate CC's old style).


But the storytelling techniques aren't a fad. Its a natural progression if you watch. Comics today play more like a movie type atmosphere than they do the old ways. Its slowly moved towards this with less thought balloons and all.

Now on a page yes the visual and personal styles will become dated. I know when McFarlane got Amazing Spidey he wasn't wanting to do the typical Mary-Jane drawing as she had been done since the 60's. So he tossed it out the window and went all wild with her hair. Giving her a late 80's style hair.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I wholeheartedly disagree. I much prefer giving him to-the-left, to-the-left titles where he has room to breathe (as much as I am not looking forward to his direction for Exiles from the interview). I think while a lot of people criticize Claremont's dialogue or even pacing most, I have just disliked the directions he's taken the books/characters. That's just personal preference though--I'm sure people would want an editor who likes what they like as well.

I think what has hurt Claremont is the fact that his plots are the kind he'd love to slowly have untangle. To build and take off . That he can drop plot B into a book and let it simmer and all for issues like the Jamie Braddock plot he dropped in Uncanny in #449.

But the plot became so secondary that fans couldn't get into it. The plot would show up from time to time , but by #474 many really didn't care anymore about Braddock. Hell I was intriqued by this guy at 1st but as months went by and the storyline with Betsy and Jamie never happened , I said f-ck it.

Thats the biggest problem now. If you drop plot B into a comic the fans want plot B mentioned more and more til it becomes the A plot soon enough.

[DDM]

Fads have ALWAYS been present. Whether its 90's hair or 80's mullets, they do exist. Sometimes I feel like only the horrible ones of the 90's are really acknowledged. Rogue had frickin' 90's hair in the 80's! ;)

I honestly think the X-Men material published so far either is dated--or will be dated (but its too soon to tell right now). References, style....later generations just might not get it (n00bs alike love and hate CC's old style).

The idioms stay current with the times, but idioms, style of clothes, & hair are all superficial elements to the story. The story itself does not change the substance of what a story is (whether the story is character driven or plot driven). What matters is how the writer creates the story elements. However, what also matters is how much the editors help or hurt the book with the writer. I think Chris Claremont remains one of the best writers in the business today, despite many of the editors coming from a carousel ride over the years. Chris Claremont rolls with the punches very well.

[Faded]

But the storytelling techniques aren't a fad. Its a natural progression if you watch. Comics today play more like a movie type atmosphere than they do the old ways. Its slowly moved towards this with less thought balloons and all.

My point is: who's to say we can't have timeless classics today with a completely different style? The impression I got from DDM's post, and sincere apologies if I'm wrong, was that in comparison to Claremont, current writing styles are filled with fads that will be greeted with dust in the future. "Timeless" styles aren't set in stone just yet. ;)

I think what has hurt Claremont is the fact that his plots are the kind he'd love to slowly have untangle. To build and take off . That he can drop plot B into a book and let it simmer and all for issues like the Jamie Braddock plot he dropped in Uncanny in #449.

But the plot became so secondary that fans couldn't get into it. The plot would show up from time to time , but by #474 many really didn't care anymore about Braddock. Hell I was intriqued by this guy at 1st but as months went by and the storyline with Betsy and Jamie never happened , I said f-ck it.

Thats the biggest problem now. If you drop plot B into a comic the fans want plot B mentioned more and more til it becomes the A plot soon enough.

I just can't get into Courtney Ross, the Dark X-Men, the Neo, R'Chel's dino friends, etc. There's no connection. I'd be thrilled to watch a story gradually unfold into something GREAT, but if I'm not initially hooked, why would I stay on for the ride? Regardless, I HAVE stayed on for CC's tenures and have started to develop a track record that tells me his stories just aren't for me. Not anymore, anyway.

The idioms stay current with the times, but idioms, style of clothes, & hair are all superficial elements to the story. The story itself does not change the substance of what a story is (whether the story is character driven or plot driven). What matters is how the writer creates the story elements. However, what also matters is how much the editors help or hurt the book with the writer. I think Chris Claremont remains one of the best writers in the business today, despite many of the editors coming from a carousel ride over the years. Chris Claremont rolls with the punches very well.

I think I totally misunderstood your post, lol. So, I'm going to blushingly step aside. :o

Sorry.

lol, Thanks! Me too. I try not to get bogged down on the bad stuff, and remember all the good stuff.

It's times like these its great to have such a bloated industry. :D

[gabesword]

I would like to know if all the Carey fans here read his Lucifer or Crossing Midnight and what they think of it.

I loved his Lucifer. I think if he is given the chance to stay on the book for a long time it will pay off big time. That's what Lucifer was like. If you go back and read Lucifer there was constant set up going on. I found each issue enjoyable but they were even better when read a second time after I had read what came later. Every character who we met seemed to play a big role before all was said and done. I am enjoying his run on X-Men so far but I am even more excited by what will surely come later if he is allowed to stay on the title and set up the dominoes and knock them down later.

I am reading Crossing Midnight as well and I am very confidant that it will blow me away by time it is over. I am already intrigued by what is going on and it is still the very beginning of the story.

P.S. Lucifer is my favorite comic to date. There are very few stories in any medium that I have enjoyed more.

[jarrod]

I say this with much love to Carey, but I agree. His strength really is taking what already exists and strengthening it--which is what the X-Men needs IMO. It's been evolutionized, revitalized, revolutioned, and reloaded repeatedly already. Right now we just need someone to make it good.
Oh, agreed entirely. We don't need the wheel re-invented, and neither does the X-franchise at this point, we just need someone whom can adeptly steer what's been built up so far. And Carey is proving to be the best man for the job by far, X-Men's been a pure delight since he came on board.

And again, no slight to Carey, what he's accomplishing is no easy task. Sometimes innvoation is harder than invention. I wouldn't mind seeing Carey take over a second X-book regularly either.... have they got an X-Force writer yet?


So you can see why he's leaning a bit more towards a Morrison'ish territory rather than a Chris Claremont one.
No, not entirely... while Morrison's run was indeed something of a love letter to longtime Claremont fans (outside facist Magneto anyway *spits*), New X-Men still felt unmistakably his. This was literally Morrison's X-Men, he took ownership outright, much like Claremont two and half decades earlier.

I don't get that feeling from Carey so far. Granted it's still early, but his stamp on the mythos isn't nearly so singular or exotic... instead he seems to be playing in a very Claremontian tradition with a very logical and respectful approach. But he's not nearly the "ideas man" either Morrison or Claremont were.

[DrDoomX]

Its hard to say how I feel about Claremonts recent work. I liked his Uncanny Run, the one that started on 444 and it was good but I think it hurts...
If you read alot of his earlier work, particularly around 200 through Mutant Massacre and then the Australian era and then the no team era, the fact was his work was a bit more gritty. He had some pretty dark and grim stuff, and its not just that mentioned period but he had some dark stuff through out his run...just that period was pretty grim. And his newer work, to me does not seem that dark or gritty to me...albeit I will admit I am not reading Exaclibur right now or anything, but his Uncanny and Xtreme did not have that zing it did. It seemed a bit toned down IMO...if that was personal preference or Editorial decision I cannot say...
The other thing I think hurts his work and this could be tied in with what I said is, he does not have the control of the Xbooks as he did. Considered this, he took over a book that was dying and had pretty much a say so in everything. There was a few instances of editorial interference then such as Jim Shooters infamous chaing of the DFS ending but aside from that he did what he wanted and needed to do for the most part.
His teams were able to shift members in and out, and such. Today he cannot do that, because certain writers are assigned certain characters, and such. I do agree with DDM, I donot think he is rehashing plots, but I do think his writing does hurt from those aspects mentioned above!

[The Sword Is Drawn]

The idioms stay current with the times, but idioms, style of clothes, & hair are all superficial elements to the story. The story itself does not change the substance of what a story is (whether the story is character driven or plot driven). What matters is how the writer creates the story elements. However, what also matters is how much the editors help or hurt the book with the writer. I think Chris Claremont remains one of the best writers in the business today, despite many of the editors coming from a carousel ride over the years. Chris Claremont rolls with the punches very well.

A very intelligent post, as usual.

I really wish that a few more people would see beyond the Aesthetic elements. I'm sure that you, like I, are actually interested inthe story being told.

So many people seemed to write of New Excalibur, for example, the second that they saw the pre-release cover for #1, and saw two caracters drawn in ways which did not match with how they wanted them to be shown.

I think it's greatly sad, and that some never even gave the stories a chance from that point onwards, only checking in to pick fault at the odd note of dialogue.

But now I'm going off topic, so I'll quit.

[DrDoomX]

Its hard to say how I feel about Claremonts recent work. I liked his Uncanny Run, the one that started on 444 and it was good but I think it hurts...
If you read alot of his earlier work, particularly around 200 through Mutant Massacre and then the Australian era and then the no team era, the fact was his work was a bit more gritty. He had some pretty dark and grim stuff, and its not just that mentioned period but he had some dark stuff through out his run...just that period was pretty grim. And his newer work, to me does not seem that dark or gritty to me...albeit I will admit I am not reading Exaclibur right now or anything, but his Uncanny and Xtreme did not have that zing it did. It seemed a bit toned down IMO...if that was personal preference or Editorial decision I cannot say...
The other thing I think hurts his work and this could be tied in with what I said is, he does not have the control of the Xbooks as he did. Considered this, he took over a book that was dying and had pretty much a say so in everything. There was a few instances of editorial interference then such as Jim Shooters infamous chaing of the DFS ending but aside from that he did what he wanted and needed to do for the most part.
His teams were able to shift members in and out, and such. Today he cannot do that, because certain writers are assigned certain characters, and such. I do agree with DDM, I donot think he is rehashing plots, but I do think his writing does hurt from those aspects mentioned above!

[jarrod]

As far as Claremont's recent work, I think Xtreme was really the best of his X-Men runs. Great cast, fun stories, lots of interplay, lots of continuity mining and it set itself up as the perfect ideological and symbolic counter to Morrison's New X-Men. It certainly felt like the (2nd) most relevant X-book at the time, much morseo than Casey/Austin's abortive runs on Uncanny.

Claremont's Uncanny was unevenly up and down by comparison (way up for the End of History/Greys arcs, okay for the Murderworld/HOM/First Forsaken arcs, sort of down for the rest of it imo). Artistic shifts and general editorial interference really held back what could've been a fantastic run imo.

Revolution... well it was a mess. And lots of people are to blame, Claremont included... the less said about it, the better probably.

[tetragene]

So many people seemed to write of New Excalibur, for example, the second that they saw the pre-release cover for #1, and saw two caracters drawn in ways which did not match with how they wanted them to be shown.

I think it's greatly sad, and that some never even gave the stories a chance from that point onwards, only checking in to pick fault at the odd note of dialogue.

I think it's greatly sad that some people can actually post something like this and believe it. The odd redesigns and OOC moments are the least of NEX's problems. The Shadow X-Men came off as skin-deep villains, the reason behind kidnapping Nocturne was never even hinted at, after #8 the kidnapping Nocturne bit instead of Psylocke makes absolutely NO sense, the character's reactions to Courtney have been inconsistant, Courtney's monologues about her love for Brian have been down right dorky, Brian's "we are a team, Britain needs us" speeches feel very tacked on, Sage is always put on a pedastal which reads as obvious character worship...the list goes on. People hate the redesigns and mischaracterizations of some of the NEX cast, this is true--and they're often vocal about it. It's a factor, but that's hardly the reason people have elected to drop the book or stop giving it chances.

[BIG-X-FAN]

I didn't read anything that anyone else has written, but I want to say that Carey isn't the new Claremont. For me, he's better than Claremont. The last ten issues have been some of the best X-Men issues I've ever read. He's like a mix between Grant Morrison and I don't know Scott Lobdell or somebody. Chris Claremont just sort of gets lost when he writes X-Men. He creates all of these wild subplots and drops them off just to pick them up later. And he does it very poorly. Not that I don't like Claremont. He's just not my favorite X-Men writer. He's definately in my top 5 though.

[satchmo the dragon]

I didn't read anything that anyone else has written, but I want to say that Carey isn't the new Claremont. For me, he's better than Claremont. The last ten issues have been some of the best X-Men issues I've ever read. He's like a mix between Grant Morrison and I don't know Scott Lobdell or somebody. Chris Claremont just sort of gets lost when he writes X-Men. He creates all of these wild subplots and drops them off just to pick them up later. And he does it very poorly. Not that I don't like Claremont. He's just not my favorite X-Men writer. He's definately in my top 5 though.

People say on here a lot that Claremont has so many unfinished plots because editors often interfere with his stories. That may be true but it is very annoying I agree.

[Slung]

Revolution... well it was a mess. And lots of people are to blame, Claremont included... the less said about it, the better probably.

I have yet to figure out why everyone thinks Revolution was such a mess. Yes, it spiraled down just after the X-Men movie came out (the ol' "oh, no...put the X-Men teams together and get them back to the mansion so we can have Mystique and Sen. Kelly in the book" trick). I thought Uncanny was pretty much brilliant for at first. Phoenix, Storm, Cable, Gambit and Beast were a great team. It had a bit of espionage intrigue: exotic locales, stealth strategies, blackmarket, smoky clubs, hidden treasures. Re-read issues 381, 383, 384...and then pretty much stop. I remember reading Uncanny 381 and being..."Wow...THAT'S what the X-Men should feel like." It had been so long since I had felt floored by an issue. And the next time I felt that way was...issue 383. The book was going places (382 was an eye-sore with Raney's inconsistent pencils and some out-of-place story with Jean inside some Neo's head - it could have been interesting but Raney killed it). Kubert was shifted over to Ultimate X-Men and Claremont was told to drop his storylines for more newbie-friendly stories. And the book died.

[david r]

i heard about that too... and i heard they exchanged heated words or something, anybody with details??

Going back to the Joe Quesada/ Grant Morrison split....

this began with Marvel Boy 2, which Grant Morrison very much wanted to do. Marvel President Bill Jemas had his own ideas for Marvel Boy 2, and interjected them to GM. Morrison apparently was not at all enthused with this, and he and Jemas argued back and forth over Marvel Boy 2.

Joe Quesada sat on the sidelines, and did not stick up for Morrison. At the same time, DC Comics was attempting to lure GM back with promises of creative freedom and doing provocative works like We3 and Seaguy. Hearing how easy Dan Didio was to work with (compared to mini-tyrant Bill Jemas), Morrison quit Marvel and returned to his true love---DC Comics.

His run in with Quesada happened at a comics convention after all this. Joe Quesada finally cornered Grant Morrison and said essentially "You OWE ME!" Morrison said "Screw you. Screw Marvel. And screw that asshole of a President you work for."

[Omega Alpha]

People say on here a lot that Claremont has so many unfinished plots because editors often interfere with his stories. That may be true but it is very annoying I agree.

If a subplot gets interrupted ocasionally because of editorial decisions, it's the editor's fault; however, when it happens all the time, Claremont deserves to be blamed too. See for example Bendis: he had lots of long-running plots in DD, and it could be said that his run was just one big story, and has his long-running plots in NA and USM too; but he does that because he knows for sure he'll stay in the books as long as he wants, since he sells well enough to guarantee that he'll stay, and except by NA, his books had almost unanimous critical and fan support. CC, however, knows as much as we all do that he can't be sure if he'll stay in the books for long enough to finish all his plots, or that he will sell well enough to the editorial not want him to continue the story and tell other stories. If he continues to insist on several ongoing subplots that because they're not finished, they make the book look bad, is his fault as much as the editor's (if not more) that the stories are not finished and suck.

[david r]

You always carp about Claremont's books not selling. The hated Neo storyline was the biggest selling comics when they were being published. both X-Men and Uncanny X-Men were selling over 100,000 copies each month in 2000. And that's DURING the Revolution period.

Both core X-books were the #1 and #2 books each month, during the Neo storyline. So saying they weren't selling is false. The books were the top books in the industry and selling more copies than Brubaker or Carey are now.

[Nyssane]

High sales =/= good writing. Star Wars Episode 1 was one of the highest grossing movies, but it sucked Lucasballs.

[Omega Alpha]

You always carp about Claremont's books not selling. The hated Neo storyline was the biggest selling comics when they were being published. both X-Men and Uncanny X-Men were selling over 100,000 copies each month in 2000. And that's DURING the Revolution period.


If they were selling enough, Claremont wouldn't be removed from the titles. Morrison sold more than him, so it could sell more. And the books with Lobdell were selling as much as Claremont, and no one complained about him getting fired.


Both core X-books were the #1 and #2 books each month, during the Neo storyline. So saying they weren't selling is false. The books were the top books in the industry and selling more copies than Brubaker or Carey are now.

And in 1970, Uncanny was cancelled because it didn't sell enough, "only" 200.000 copies, so what? The market right now is completely different; at the time, there weren't much big events to compete with, and Marvel was focused in and pushed only the X-books, so all of them would always be top-selling, even with Casey, Lobdell (both in 2001 and in the 90's), Seagle, Kelly or Davis they were the leaders.
Nowdays, the X-books are just other books in Marvel; important, of course, but with such titles as New and Mighty Avengers, Amazing Spider-Man selling well again and the Ultimate line, they are not that dependent from them, and so they are pushed less, and selling 90 or 80 thousand copies is not a disaster, although it would be if they were as promoted as they were before, specially in the 90's, when Marvel was "X-men" and "the rest", and if the market was the same. And there was less competition of other media as there is today, it's not only the comics audience that is shrinking.

And, CC's numbers by September or August were already lower than Davis' numbers were, which is a clear sign that it wasn't selling well enough.

[Omega Alpha]

Double post.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

You always carp about Claremont's books not selling. The hated Neo storyline was the biggest selling comics when they were being published. both X-Men and Uncanny X-Men were selling over 100,000 copies each month in 2000. And that's DURING the Revolution period.

Both core X-books were the #1 and #2 books each month, during the Neo storyline. So saying they weren't selling is false. The books were the top books in the industry and selling more copies than Brubaker or Carey are now.

Heroes Reborn sold like hotcakes but how good were they to read ? Hell if were going on numbers Joe Casey and Grant Morrison topped Claremont's numbers in 2001 (Morrison over 125,000 regulary for 30+ issues and Casey over 100,000 til his run derailed off the tracks those final months ).

[jarrod]

Well, if we're getting into sales arguments, how about the fact that Brubaker, Carey and C&C each haven't managed to appreciably increase sales on their titles? These books were all basically selling the same under Claremont, Milligan and N&C.

Same goes for Claremont versus Bedard on eXiles. None of the recent creative shifts have seemingly done anything to drive sales...

[The Sword Is Drawn]

I think it's greatly sad that some people can actually post something like this and believe it.

well, maybe the fact that quite a number of people do, and not all of them are even massive Claremont fans might go to saying something. Perhaps?

The odd redesigns and OOC moments are the least of NEX's problems.

But at the same point the redesigns, which a good number of fans did also like, were suited to the approach that was being taken with that character in that story. Likewise the moments that people ranted about being out of context. The number of people who complained that Nocturne accidentally referred to Kurt as 'Daddy' is a good example of this. That's something she also did with another alternate universe version of her father, whom she had not so much as even spoken to before, spent a whole issue watching moonfully from afar, and went out of her way to protect in eXiles, under the writer whom many claim wrote her best.

Claiming characters being written as 'hideously OOC' is purely subjective. You cannot write a story purely around one character on a team book. That's not a story. That's just fanfic.

The Shadow X-Men came off as skin-deep villains

Which is all that they were intended to be in their initial appearance - mercenaries doing Work for Hire, for an unnamed third party. The Shadow King alludes to this in his face off with Psylocke in #8. The Warwolves also stated that they were unable to fulfil their 'contract' in #5, and would try another day. Somebody was employed to clear out Courtney Ross' finances, cancel her cards and mobile phone - but then was found dead in India.

These were all interconnected. They have begun to become forgotten because Claremont never got to finish them, and Frank Tieri chose not to even reference these events when he was filling in.

the reason behind kidnapping Nocturne was never even hinted at, after #8 the kidnapping Nocturne bit instead of Psylocke makes absolutely NO sense

Unless he didn't want Nocturne possessing a Shadow X-Man, accessing their memories and realising it WAS the Shadow King. You'll notice that the Shadow King actually chose the setup for his face off very carefully, making sure that he got her on his own. This was purely an act of honoured vengeance.

,the character's reactions to Courtney have been inconsistant, Courtney's monologues about her love for Brian have been down right dorky,

Won't disagree with you there. It seems that in Brian's eyes she is now the REAL Courtney. But we all know that the REAL Courtney is dead. I await that explanation as well as you.

Brian's "we are a team, Britain needs us" speeches feel very tacked on,

Okay, we're in a Britain where beings from other dimensions are slipping through into this one, where shady organizations are mounting hostile takeovers and hiring mercenaries to take out people who work for institutions who might be causing problems, and where a punch up between Cap and Albion - way above the streets and house - literally causes the ground and building to tear themselves up. And there's no heroes around to sort it out. In what world is any kind of Captain Britain patriotic speech inappropriate?

Sage is always put on a pedastal which reads as obvious character worship...

Okay, I'd agree with you there... ;)

People hate the redesigns and mischaracterizations of some of the NEX cast, this is true--and they're often vocal about it.

But in all honesty, Tetragene how many pf those who genuinely love a book actually come on a forum to post multitudinous praise for it - compared to those who want to have a therapeutic moan? :D

The redesign were not to some people's liking, but did at least make sense in the context of the story. This is a Dazzler who no longer dazzles. Her life has pretty much fallen apart, and she now gets to play dingy bars where she more likely to be felt up by the owner than actually paid...

Does her redesign match that? I hope it evolves in time but I can at least see the correlation.

It's a factor, but that's hardly the reason people have elected to drop the book or stop giving it chances.

Granted. A number of people dropped it because they felt Frank Tieri was driving it into the ground, also. There's many reasons. But now the book is finally forging its path as intended we'll get to see how it really shapes up.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Well, if we're getting into sales arguments, how about the fact that Brubaker, Carey and C&C each haven't managed to appreciably increase sales on their titles? These books were all basically selling the same under Claremont, Milligan and N&C.

Same goes for Claremont versus Bedard on eXiles. None of the recent creative shifts have seemingly done anything to drive sales...

Hell , Claremont's sales the final months on Uncanny fell into the range Austen did on that series. As he said he knew he couldn't actually raise the sales levels of Uncanny but more or less as a writer tried to keep them in the +80,000 sales range.

[tetragene]

But at the same point the redesigns, which a good number of fans did also like, were suited to the approach that was being taken with that character in that story.

What approach? It's like the characters were given these edgy image changes, but they are acting all happy-go lucky. What is "edgy" or "dark" about the way Nocturne or Dazzler have been written? Nothing.

Claiming characters being written as 'hideously OOC' is purely subjective. You cannot write a story purely around one character on a team book. That's not a story. That's just fanfic.

I don't understand this--no one is clamoring for their favorite character to be front and center in this book--just for what actions and dialogue they do have to be consisten with their overall comic book existance. I don't think that's asking for too much.

These were all interconnected. They have begun to become forgotten because Claremont never got to finish them, and Frank Tieri chose not to even reference these events when he was filling in.

My main fault with Claremont these days--taking forever to completing just ONE story, not to mention several at a time. And really...did Tieri choose not to reference those, or was he restricted from doing much of anything with the book? Before he started writing people were bitching that he'd interfere with CC's "intentions" for NEX, now that he steered clear of touching on any "CC elements" people are bitching that he de-railed the book... Speaking of which, it looks like CC chose to ignore the whole Juggernaut arc and what the characters experienced in it.

Unless he didn't want Nocturne possessing a Shadow X-Man, accessing their memories and realising it WAS the Shadow King. You'll notice that the Shadow King actually chose the setup for his face off very carefully, making sure that he got her on his own. This was purely an act of honoured vengeance.

He is gung ho about "taking her", but makes sure to let Rachel & Kitty (and the readers of course) know that her mind is almost impossible to crack and take control of...but then proceeds to do that with ease in #8. He had Nocturne KO'ed pretty good...what was the purpose of kidnapping her? We never know. Meanwhile, Psylocke is completely helpless after being knocked unconscious--yet Shadow Xavier/Shadow King shows absolutely no interest in her, but as of #8 he reveals that all he's wanted is vengence against her and now has absolutely no interest in Nocturne. Say wha? Come again?

Okay, we're in a Britain where beings from other dimensions are slipping through into this one, where shady organizations are mounting hostile takeovers and hiring mercenaries to take out people who work for institutions who might be causing problems, and where a punch up between Cap and Albion - way above the streets and house - literally causes the ground and building to tear themselves up. And there's no heroes around to sort it out. In what world is any kind of Captain Britain patriotic speech inappropriate?

The speeches all of a sudden make these characters give a crap and decide to join NEX, even though two issues ago some of them were completely against it? Then in #17 he talks about how much of a "team...a family" they are and then suddenly they are? Meh.


But in all honesty, Tetragene how many pf those who genuinely love a book actually come on a forum to post multitudinous praise for it - compared to those who want to have a therapeutic moan? :D

I'd say just as many post praise of it as those who complain about it. There are those who over-the-top complain and those who refuse to acknowledge any mistakes/short-comings whatsoever about the title--it's pretty balanced.

The redesign were not to some people's liking, but did at least make sense in the context of the story. This is a Dazzler who no longer dazzles. Her life has pretty much fallen apart, and she now gets to play dingy bars where she more likely to be felt up by the owner than actually paid...

Does her redesign match that? I hope it evolves in time but I can at least see the correlation.

Her redesign matches that one aspect we saw in one issue--too bad the follow-up issues didn't portray much of any despair or tragedy in her life, she's been pretty upbeat in the book. Given what she's been through career-wise and personal/relationship-wise (Longshot, X-Men, MU heroes--none of them are there for her now) it'd make perfect sense for her to be acting down or jaded, but she's been rather cheery--and I don't buy that it's an example of someone "covering their true feelings with a positive facade"--otherwise we'd have seen some "alone" moments with the charcater to point out the "darkness" she's experiencing.

Granted. A number of people dropped it because they felt Frank Tieri was driving it into the ground, also. There's many reasons. But now the book is finally forging its path as intended we'll get to see how it really shapes up.

lol, I know you like to give Tieri (and Ryan) hell for their work on the book--but Tieri's issues were not THAT bad. They weren't great, but they were par for the course with this book, quality-wise, I felt. At least he was able to wrap up his arcs pretty well instead of dragging them on and leaving a lot of things unanswered or up for debate.

[jarrod]

Let's not mince words, Tieri's NEX was downright awful. People like to complain about OOC moments nonstop when it comes to Claremont, but literally the whole team felt alien during Tieri's run plus the plots were raw shit. Total waste of time, I wish either (1) Yost had stepped up and filled in or (2) NEX had been put on hiatus until Claremont's health was fully recovered.

[DDM]

My main fault with Claremont these days--taking forever to completing just ONE story, not to mention several at a time.

Chris Claremont has always written comics in this manner; the serial medium which comic books are dictate a slow build-up with subplots & main plots. For example, Dark Phoenix really begins in Uncanny X-Men #105-107 & Uncanny X-Men #108 displaying the full extent of Jean's powers as Phoenix; she fears losing control of herself. Hence Jean rejoins the X-Men in Uncanny X-Men #110. From Uncanny X-Men #111-128, Claremont keeps building with concept by bringing in Jason Wyngarde & his idea to subvert Phoenix into the Hellfire Club's Black Queen, not realizing the consequences.

The Proteus plot begins in Uncanny X-Men #104, but is not resolved until Uncanny X-Men #125-128.

The Hellfire Club subplot begins in Uncanny X-Men #100 & Uncanny X-Men #110 (two seemingly unconnected stories), yet does reach fruition until Uncanny X-Men #129-134.

If you just noticed this now, I suggest rereading Chris Claremont's Uncanny X-Men #96-278.

Chris Claremont's introduces several plots to give the reader his ideas where the book is going in the next 2 years. It also keeps the readers interested & guessing where he is going. I like Claremont because I cannot predict his stories like I can with most other writers.

[Nachturne]

Chris Claremont's introduces several plots to give the reader his ideas where the book is going in the next 2 years. It also keeps the readers interested & guessing where he is going. I like Claremont because I cannot predict his stories like I can with most other writers.

And that was fine when there was a guarantee a writer would be on a book so long. The comic industry has changed, and whether for the better or worse, it's changed. Having these long drawn out plots aren't so great if you're not going to be able to finish them. And you can still write kick ass stuff without having it last issues and issues.

[tetragene]

Let's not mince words, Tieri's NEX was downright awful. People like to complain about OOC moments nonstop when it comes to Claremont, but literally the whole team felt alien during Tieri's run plus the plots were raw shit. Total waste of time, I wish either (1) Yost had stepped up and filled in or (2) NEX had been put on hiatus until Claremont's health was fully recovered.

Nocturne fans were pretty happy with his portrayal of the character, Dazzler didn't do crap while he was writing so not much to comment on (although mentioning roller skates in one line = more in character than most of CC's Dazzler ;) :p ), Sage still came off as the deus ex machina and arrogant biatch, Captain Britain didn't read different than CC's NEX version to me. Tieri took a royal shite on Pete Wisdom--he was definitely out of character, then again CC's wasn't much better either.

Chris Claremont has always written comics in this manner; the serial medium which comic books are dictate a slow build-up with subplots & main plots.

Thanks for the long-winded post to, essentially, just tell me Claremont has always written that way. What he did 20 years ago doesn't fly today though--writers are taken off projects at the drop of a hat, you can't afford to leave a plot dangling or simmering for over a year--otherwise you run the risk of never getting to complete it. When you do that with more than one plot point, then you're really treading it dangerous waters. Something that CC should be well aware of by now. Back then he was writing several books and was pretty insured he'd be staying on them for years to come (not to mention that he was at the top of his game in the 80's)--but this isn't true anymore, he can't be certain how long he'll remain on a given book.

[Apocalypse Now Then!]

What approach? It's like the characters were given these edgy image changes, but they are acting all happy-go lucky. What is "edgy" or "dark" about the way Nocturne or Dazzler have been written? Nothing.

Not being funny, but I don't buy that at all. Dazzler was restyled 'un-fabulous' on purpose. Because she didn't feel 'fabulous' anymore, because she HAD no career, because sjhe had no purpose even... Thast was a physical echo of where she was right there abd then. Not even particularly feminine. I felt, and still feel, that it fits the character perfectly, right now.

I'm sorry that you don't.

Nocturne was restyled more towards what's punky in Britain these days, trying to fit in to a place she's decided to lay roots in. That, to me, also totally fits. I really don't see the problem.

I don't understand this--no one is clamoring for their favorite character to be front and center in this book--just for what actions and dialogue they do have to be consisten with their overall comic book existance. I don't think that's asking for too much.

I think some people are clamouring for just that, though. And they go to quite unacceptable levels of just borderline enough not to get them banned messageboard trolling to let their view be know. Not yourself Tetragene. I'm glad that you have always been willing to back your opinions up wuith strong argument. I wish some people would better follow your example.

I feel Dazzler in NEX is consistently written with the only Dazzler I knew, back in the Aussie Years issues of Uncanny. I feel that Nocturne is written in keeping with the Chuck Austen period Uncanny. in both of these cases these were howthe characters were last written. I see a throughline there.

My main fault with Claremont these days--taking forever to completing just ONE story, not to mention several at a time.

You see, I partially agree with you there. But in this case he was literally CUT OFF in hs pltting, having expected to have had the rest of 2006 to round things up. He never got it because fate intervened, and I think it's pretty harsh to critcize that. I'm just so glad that he's back to finish things now.

And really...did Tieri choose not to reference those, or was he restricted from doing much of anything with the book?

Frankly I'm past caring with debating that one, now. It doesn't escape that his run was dog dirt in my eyes. He could have at least acknowledged that some part of the first 8 issues happened - even in a 'Well we didn't have this much trouble before. Even with those sodding Warwolves' kind of way. He went out of his way to ignore that the book was set in England, that tere was a state of National Emergency or that this team needed to bond together through interaction. He instead practically did the pole opposite of that, and it totally devalued the book in my eyes. Such a wasted opportunity.

Speaking of which, it looks like CC chose to ignore the whole Juggernaut arc and what the characters experienced in it.

To be honest I think that Claremont had already written the last two issues by the time that arc went to print. But frankly, why acknowledge an arc which tried to tell readers how crap this team was and how it didn't work. Kind of throws a king sized spanner in the works, for an ongoing title.

The speeches all of a sudden make these characters give a crap and decide to join NEX, even though two issues ago some of them were completely against it?

Um, actually it was pretty much only Cap who was dead against it. And seeing his fight with albion practically tear up London he had a pretty sharp rethink.

Then in #17 he talks about how much of a "team...a family" they are and then suddenly they are? Meh.

They were well on there way to it though, until Tieri. Claremont showed twenty times the interaction between the cast in the last two issues than Frank taking people off to have individual seperate arcs. Achieved a lot more, too.

lol, I know you like to give Tieri (and Ryan) hell for their work on the book--but Tieri's issues were not THAT bad. They weren't great, but they were par for the course with this book, quality-wise, I felt.

I think if you went back anbd re-read the first 15 issues you'd notice they clash a lot more than you'd think. Total different tone, approach and feel. He wasn't right for this book. It's more than just writing a geberic X-Title as Lobdell and Raab both discovered eventually.

At least he was able to wrap up his arcs pretty well instead of dragging them on and leaving a lot of things unanswered or up for debate.

And yet his two three parters could easily have been summed up in single issues. Okay maybe two for Camelot. They were drawn out, and didn't offer anything for the series itself. He really didn't seem to have read up before he started on the title. He missed the mark so badly in my eyes, it actually depresses me.

Let's not mince words, Tieri's NEX was downright awful. People like to complain about OOC moments nonstop when it comes to Claremont, but literally the whole team felt alien during Tieri's run plus the plots were raw shit.

Thank you for putting it in harsher tonesthan I, but getting the point across better. 'Alien' is in fact the absolute perfect term to use here. They read as two totally different books.

otal waste of time, I wish either (1) Yost had stepped up and filled in or (2) NEX had been put on hiatus until Claremont's health was fully recovered.

I actually agree with that. Yost's finishing of Claremont's plots worked because he actually tried to maintain the writing style. And so you actually don't really notice that a creative transition really occured. But then Tieri's run arrives and it's like somebody just chucked a piano down the stairs. Tieri wasn't writing an Excalibur title. People who only ever read his run chiefly see the title as bland and non-eventful. But that was JUST his run.

'De-railed' is exactly the right word to use. Abd in light of that I wished they had put the book on hiatus.

[ImpulseUCF]

Nocturne was restyled more towards what's punky in Britain these days, trying to fit in to a place she's decided to lay roots in. That, to me, also totally fits. I really don't see the problem.The problem with Nocturne fans less with how she looks than with how she acted, which was in utter contrast to the overwhelming majority of her existence.

I think some people are clamouring for just that, though. And they go to quite unacceptable levels of just borderline enough not to get them banned messageboard trolling to let their view be know. There's no correlation between characters degree of consistent portrayal (not OOC0 and panel-time. I can't speak so much to Dazzler, but Nocturne was by no means front and center in Exiles, but she was consistent throughout.

I feel Dazzler in NEX is consistently written with the only Dazzler I knew, back in the Aussie Years issues of Uncanny. I feel that Nocturne is written in keeping with the Chuck Austen period Uncanny. in both of these cases these were howthe characters were last written. I see a throughline there.Aren't the Aussie years considered to be the period where Dazzler's portrayal is most OOC by her fans? And Chuck Austen's random-ass 4-issue fill-in guest spot where she was OOC is hardly a fair basis for comparison. You can't have selective memory here. As these comprised mere fractions of their overall portrayals, it is still accurate to say their current portrayals are not consistent with their comic book existences to date.
Claremont showed twenty times the interaction between the cast in the last two issues than Frank taking people off to have individual seperate arcs. They went from motley crew of strangers to a family...when was this?! I certainly never saw it.
[QUOTE=Apocalypse Now Then!;4599148] They read as two totally different books. Two totally different, crappy books. :p

[Omega Alpha]

And that was fine when there was a guarantee a writer would be on a book so long. The comic industry has changed, and whether for the better or worse, it's changed. Having these long drawn out plots aren't so great if you're not going to be able to finish them. And you can still write kick ass stuff without having it last issues and issues.

Exactly, that's what i have been saying all along.

[david r]

If they were selling enough, Claremont wouldn't be removed from the titles. Morrison sold more than him, so it could sell more. And the books with Lobdell were selling as much as Claremont, and no one complained about him getting fired.

Claremont posted at Comix-Fan that Quesada was secretly negotiating with Grant Morrison even BEFORE Claremont's return issues had come out. He should be "in the know", on this. So sales really don't matter.

You want my opinion, Quesada was trying to impress Bill Jemas with the talent he could bring to Marvel. This is more complicated than any of us realize, and deals with far more than the X-Men comics. Claremont was creating a BIG buzz returning to the X-Men in 2000. But Quesada felt he could trump this with Grant Morrison (Mr. JLA) coming onboard. Plus, the whole editorial reshuffle in 2000, and Claremont losing his job in 2000 is extremely complicated. Much more involved than just "The Neo suck."

The market right now is completely different; at the time, there weren't much big events to compete with, and Marvel was focused in and pushed only the X-books, so all of them would always be top-selling, even with Casey, Lobdell (both in 2001 and in the 90's), Seagle, Kelly or Davis they were the leaders.

Marvel's logic has never made any sense. When Claremont was fired in 1991, Uncanny X-Men was selling 400,000-500,000 copies a month. A HUGE seller, and Marvel still let the writer go.

Hell, one of his final issues sold 8 million copies! If that isn't some INDICATION of SUCCESS, I dont know what is!! Claremont writes the most succesful book in comics history, and Marvel Comics turns right around and fires him. Do You want to support a company that does that?

[Frank]

A very intelligent post, as usual.

I really wish that a few more people would see beyond the Aesthetic elements. I'm sure that you, like I, are actually interested inthe story being told.

So many people seemed to write of New Excalibur, for example, the second that they saw the pre-release cover for #1, and saw two caracters drawn in ways which did not match with how they wanted them to be shown.

I think it's greatly sad, and that some never even gave the stories a chance from that point onwards, only checking in to pick fault at the odd note of dialogue.

But now I'm going off topic, so I'll quit.

Presentation is everything in comics. After all these years, CC should know that by now.

[Nachturne]

I really wish that a few more people would see beyond the Aesthetic elements. I'm sure that you, like I, are actually interested inthe story being told.


This coming from a guy who complained incessantly over Tieri's run not depicting Britian accurately enough for your taste?? Pot = k-k-k-kettle!!

And isn't this thread about Mike Carey?? How did we get to talking about New Excalibur??

Tell me, peeps. I haven't picked up Xmen yet because they may have well called the book "Nacht's Least Favorite X-characters ever", but I'm getting really intrigued by everything that everyone is saying and wanna pick it up for a look. When does the new arc start?? (I hate picking up in the middle of arcs....confuzzzzzzzed!)

[jarrod]

Nocturne fans were pretty happy with his portrayal of the character, Dazzler didn't do crap while he was writing so not much to comment on (although mentioning roller skates in one line = more in character than most of CC's Dazzler ;) :p ), Sage still came off as the deus ex machina and arrogant biatch, Captain Britain didn't read different than CC's NEX version to me. Tieri took a royal shite on Pete Wisdom--he was
I thought Dazz made a fine tourist... sort of clueless and annoying as usual. Brian had less character moments actually, outside his jokes with Dane which I did enjoy. Wisdom though... I don't think he's ever been handled so badly. Even Raab was better than that. Sage was pretty off too, she much colder and restrained than what we saw... we got her usual deus ex plot device, but nothing else.

The team dynamics absolutely went to shit though, nothing but lame bickering in every direction. Indeed Tieri's plans for the book felt highly directionless... I know it just was a fill-in, but he could've at least tried to make it look like he wasn't treading water for a paycheck.


Aren't the Aussie years considered to be the period where Dazzler's portrayal is most OOC by her fans?
Given Claremont's written Dazzler consistantly more than anyone else, who's to say his vision of the character isn't the definitive one?

Claremont's Jean was pretty radically different from what came before, but most tend to prop his interation up as the definitive one... so what's the difference here? Novaya = Byrne?

[Jack Flash]

I'm pretty sure that Caney is not the new Claremont.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Marvel's logic has never made any sense. When Claremont was fired in 1991, Uncanny X-Men was selling 400,000-500,000 copies a month. A HUGE seller, and Marvel still let the writer go.

Hell, one of his final issues sold 8 million copies! If that isn't some INDICATION of SUCCESS, I dont know what is!! Claremont writes the most succesful book in comics history, and Marvel Comics turns right around and fires him. Do You want to support a company that does that?

Wasn't this when the business was in its Speculative bubble period and sold millions for events and different covers ? Because McFarlane's Spawn , Lefield's Youngblood and Jim Lee's Wildcats all sound millions of copies as well.

[Omega Alpha]

Wasn't this when the business was in its Speculative bubble period and sold millions for events and different covers ? Because McFarlane's Spawn , Lefield's Youngblood and Jim Lee's Wildcats all sound millions of copies as well.

Exactly. And Bob Harras fired CC to give the job to Jim Lee, whom he saw as the main responsable for the sucess of the X-men, and who at the time probably sold more than CC himself, since the artists were more promoted than the writers at the time.

[DDM]

Given Claremont's written Dazzler consistantly more than anyone else, who's to say his vision of the character isn't the definitive one?

Chris Claremont's Dazzler--as the reluctant hero with a destroyed music career--plays very well when she joins the team in Uncanny X-Men #214; it is the logical step given the disaster Dazzler: The Movie unintentionally created for all mutants. Dazzler already became a pawn when Malice possessed her for Mister Sinister.

Claremont's Jean was pretty radically different from what came before, but most tend to prop his interation up as the definitive one... so what's the difference here? Novaya = Byrne?

I think most people take for granted Chris Claremont & Dave Cockrum radically changed Jean Grey when she became Phoenix. As Phoenix, Jean is far more wilder & loves using her powers. Dave Cockrum called Jean Grey/Phoenix a schizoid personality. Yes, people have accepted Jean Grey/Phoenix as the definitive Jean Grey since Marvel has gone back to well for this idea time & time again.

[DDM]

Exactly. And Bob Harras fired CC to give the job to Jim Lee, whom he saw as the main responsable for the sucess of the X-men, and who at the time probably sold more than CC himself, since the artists were more promoted than the writers at the time.

Given Jim Lee would leave a year later to form Image, Bob Harras was shortsighted in his approach. Chris Claremont is the one responsible for the X-Men's success.

[AuroraNstar]

Given Jim Lee would leave a year later to form Image, Bob Harras was shortsighted in his approach. Chris Claremont is the one responsible for the X-Men's success.
Claremont has gone on record that before Lee joined, X-Men was selling lower than when Lee came on. In fact, the issue Gambit first appeared sold way lower than most of his run. So, the artist has much credit for making the book the biggest selling book of all time.

[Christopher O]

Hey, remember when this thread wasn't actually about Claremont? I do! ZOMG!

[Omega Alpha]

Given Jim Lee would leave a year later to form Image, Bob Harras was shortsighted in his approach. Chris Claremont is the one responsible for the X-Men's success.

I'm not saying i disagree. If you have a guy who is on the title for 17 years, and the title is the top-seller off the market for several years, i think he's more responsable for the title selling well than an artist that is on the book for 2 or 3 years only (although with Lee, sales did increase a lot).

[tetragene]

So...how about that Carey guy...?

[CmX]

He's the bomb I want to marry him. ;)

[zonzorp]

Claremont's UXM sold over 400,000/month for six years, from 1985 through 1990.

Carey's XM rules.

[david r]

Carey's XM rules.

And if Sage was in it, it would be a 24-page orgasm? Followed by the Second Coming.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Given Jim Lee would leave a year later to form Image, Bob Harras was shortsighted in his approach. Chris Claremont is the one responsible for the X-Men's success.

Harras really didn't have an easy job though. The EIC and others over Harras wanted those numbers to stay high for the X-Franchise. A cartoon was coming up and you had to keep the franchise humming along. They wanted the books to match the cartoon and hell , looking at Lee's #11 of X-Men its like the cartoon took Jim Lee's X-Men and cloned them all.

Hell they created a spinoff to be about Jim Lee anyhow. They didn't realize he and the others would take their massive popularities to Image and leave Marvel in its started downward spiral. Perhaps if Jim Shooter had been there instead of DeFalco he could have gave them what they wanted and the blow wouldn't have been so hard. Or Shooter wouldn't have built Lefield , Lee , McFarlane and Silvestre into such big stars of Marvel.

[Mariah]

And if Sage was in it, it would be a 24-page orgasm? Followed by the Second Coming.
I'd drop the book, and burn my lcs to the ground to ensure noone would have to read about Sage. It's doubtful even Carey could make me like her.

[blinkinrogue]

Claremont's UXM sold over 400,000/month for six years, from 1985 through 1990.

Carey's XM rules.

wow, those sales are incredible. cc's loyalty with marvel is huge despite the crappy things they did to him by favoring jim lee and the others. i like carey better, but i have to admire CC a lot for his good qualities as well....

[Karl H]

Hey, remember when this thread wasn't actually about Claremont? I do! ZOMG!

So...how about that Carey guy...?

Quite.... Time to retreat back to X-Cres

[MartinRedmond]

I'm not really a fan but I appreciate that he is a writer who is actually writing. Which also makes the artists produce better comics imo. Down with minimalist writing!!

[DDM]

Harras really didn't have an easy job though. The EIC and others over Harras wanted those numbers to stay high for the X-Franchise.

Bob Harras believed Jim Lee was solely responsible for the X-Men's success; therefore, he listened to Jim Lee over Chris Claremont. Bob Harras gave Jim Lee more power in giving into Lee's backward ideas. Therefore, Chris Claremont quit the book because none of his ideas was making it through.

X-Men #1-3 (1991) is a very different book than X-Men #4-8. Jim Lee's plots does not have any wrinkles or density Claremont's ideas have. Ironically, the book remained afloat largely due to Chris Claremont's 17 years on Uncanny X-Men. Yet Jim Lee left X-Men a year later because Bob Harras wanted too much editorial control. Harras did something similar with Louise Simonson's books X-Factor & The New Mutants.

X-Men literally sold itself thanks to Chris Claremont.

Bob Harras' ambition & need to control the X-Men franchise is what destroyed the books. He is responsible for Chris Claremont & Louise Simonson leaving. He made his bed & spent the better part of a decade trying to keep X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, & X-Force afloat. However, no comics were safe when the market imploded in the 90's. Comics grew too fast which lead to its downfall.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Bob Harras believed Jim Lee was solely responsible for the X-Men's success; therefore, he listened to Jim Lee over Chris Claremont. Bob Harras gave Jim Lee more power in giving into Lee's backward ideas. Therefore, Chris Claremont quit the book because none of his ideas was making it through.

X-Men #1-3 (1991) is a very different book than X-Men #4-8. Jim Lee's plots does not have any wrinkles or density Claremont's ideas have. Ironically, the book remained afloat largely due to Chris Claremont's 17 years on Uncanny X-Men. Yet Jim Lee left X-Men a year later because Bob Harras wanted too much editorial control. Harras did something similar with Louise Simonson's books X-Factor & The New Mutants.

X-Men literally sold itself thanks to Chris Claremont.

Bob Harras' ambition & need to control the X-Men franchise is what destroyed the books. He is responsible for Chris Claremont & Louise Simonson leaving. He made his bed & spent the better part of a decade trying to keep X-Men, Uncanny X-Men, X-Factor, & X-Force afloat. However, no comics were safe when the market imploded in the 90's. Comics grew too fast which lead to its downfall.

And yet when he became EIC he made better decisions regarding the entire Marvel line . Its funny as much as he's really picked on regarding his decisions X-Men wise he became a very good EIC . You had a superstar artist who I'm sure Harras had really believed would stay on the books as an artist for another decade even with his bullying.

I'm sure he thought he could push Lee into what he wanted because where would he go ? He was on the number 1# book in the industry and was making a lotta $$$. The same thing with New Mutants & X-Force. He had Rob Lefield another Superstar Artist and I'm sure he felt he could have him on the X-Books for as long as he wanted.

Plus it didn't destroy the books totally. Because as one era ended , another began. Lobdell and Maduria came on and had a very decent run togethor as a team on Uncanny.

[tetragene]

Really DDM--enough of the "Claremont MADE the X-Men the biggest thing since the automobile" arguement. We're all aware of the impact and positive affect he's had on the X-Men line by now. You may want to try discussion Carey...and how he may or may not be able to be "the next Claremont"..a la the thread title. Just a thought.

[rwsmith]

X-Men #1-3 (1991) is a very different book than X-Men #4-8. Jim Lee's plots does not have any wrinkles or density Claremont's ideas have.

I actually prefer Jim Lee's issues 4-7 than Claremont's 1-3 to be honest.

[DDM]

Really DDM--enough of the "Claremont MADE the X-Men the biggest thing since the automobile" arguement. We're all aware of the impact and positive affect he's had on the X-Men line by now. You may want to try discussion Carey...and how he may or may not be able to be "the next Claremont"..a la the thread title. Just a thought.

But the question is "Is Carey the Next Claremont?" Going into detail about Chris Claremont's contribution to the X-Men canon colors on Mike Carey's recent scratchings on the X-Men canon.

Stan Lee created the X-Men, but Chris Claremont made the X-Men the juggernaut the book is today. It cannot be ignored or swept under the rug; it is like trying to sweep the Golden Gate Bridge under a door rug.

[Hi-Fi]

Ugh, this thread shoud be dead. Let it go, guys.

[Mariah]

But the question is "Is Carey the Next Claremont?" Going into detail about Chris Claremont's contribution to the X-Men canon colors on Mike Carey's recent scratchings on the X-Men canon.

Stan Lee created the X-Men, but Chris Claremont made the X-Men the juggernaut the book is today. It cannot be ignored or swept under the rug; it is like trying to sweep the Golden Gate Bridge under a door rug.
Good, throw a good rug over it, and let's be done with it. I'm fairly certain everyone here is more than aware of his contributions. Let's discuss Carey, and how he reminds some people of a young Claremont.

[Sentinel K]

Ugh, this thread shoud be dead. Let it go, guys.

Shut up!

This is the most successful thread I've ever had!

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Good, throw a good rug over it, and let's be done with it. I'm fairly certain everyone here is more than aware of his contributions. Let's discuss Carey, and how he reminds some people of a young Claremont.

Is Carey really a young Claremont though ? The guys who remind me of him are on New X-Men and seemingly have used the past ideas and melded them into the future as we see.

[CmX]

Just because someone uses Claremont's old ideas doesn't make them the new Claremont.

Sure C&C are more old school style ONLY in the fact that they've used older characters such as Stryker & Nimrod.

But that's as far as similarities go.

[Hi-Fi]

Shut up!

This is the most successful thread I've ever had!

Well, it's a stupid thread! Just like your face!!!!! Take that, T.S.!!

[zonzorp]

I'm not really a fan but I appreciate that he is a writer who is actually writing. Which also makes the artists produce better comics imo. Down with minimalist writing!!

I agree with this.
The "words suck" attitude is ruining comics.

[We R. Venom]

I agree with this.
The "words suck" attitude is ruining comics.

For you. Ruining comics for you.

[zonzorp]

For you. Ruining comics for you.

And anyone else who doesn't just want to look at the pictures.

[Pach!]

Well if the pictures weren't important then you could just as well read a book.

[zonzorp]

Well if the pictures weren't important then you could just as well read a book.

The pictures and words are both important.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Just because someone uses Claremont's old ideas doesn't make them the new Claremont.

Sure C&C are more old school style ONLY in the fact that they've used older characters such as Stryker & Nimrod.

But that's as far as similarities go.

Its more than that really. Its like they aren't afraid to throw curves and no one is safe. It flashes me back to old Claremont in a way where he wasn't afraid to send the X-Team into the Outback for a few years or de-power Storm eithor.

[Mariah]

Its more than that really. Its like they aren't afraid to throw curves and no one is safe. It flashes me back to old Claremont in a way where he wasn't afraid to send the X-Team into the Outback for a few years or de-power Storm eithor.
I'd say Carey's team is more reminiscent of the Outback era. It's such a motley crew, that shouldn't work, but for some reason it just does.

[david r]

I It flashes me back to old Claremont in a way where he wasn't afraid to send the X-Team into the Outback for a few years or de-power Storm eithor.

Afraid? Those are the VERY thingsClaremont would do if he creative control. This "1985 status quo" thing would be dead.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'd say Carey's team is more reminiscent of the Outback era. It's such a motley crew, that shouldn't work, but for some reason it just does.

Its a weird team. I give Carey that much. Its a unique team and moving them out on their own is a pretty solid idea.

Afraid? Those are the VERY thingsClaremont would do if he creative control. This "1985 status quo" thing would be dead.

He had his own team in Uncanny and had something intriquing with the X.S.E that he seemed to drop after 2 storyarcs. He had some control in his X-Treme X-Men run as well before he came back .

It just seems that guys like Austen , Yost & Kyle and Ed Brubaker aren't afraid to shake some things character wise. Or do something wild right now within the system. Because if someone says that they get special treatment ...maybe Joss Whedon does....but these other guys seemingly had to work within the Marvel system like Claremont has to.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Another aspect I'm thinking of regarding Claremont is....has he became more or less a Marv Wolfman ? Because the instance I'm thinking of is where Wolfman had stayed beyond where he should have left the Titans and kept churning out stories and the characters became stale over time.

That his love of the characters had pretty much made him relunctant to do anything shocking or alter the team ? I know Peterson as editor brought it up and even Wolfman admitted he had grown tired of the series and really didn't wanna shake things up at 1st.

I know when Claremont did that FF run he seemed pretty energized on it. Perhaps was a new area to work within to do things. That run seemed so fresh and new. That he was back as a solid writer and he didn't need the X-Books since he was doing Fantastic Four .

Does he really have a "love" of the characters that locks him from doing truelly wild character things ? I know his Nocturne arc is a suprise to show us he can rattle the cages and all. So perhaps he just needs a series where he can do this .

But on the main characters...could he be relunctant to throw a wild plot with a character out that he loves ? Could there be some Wolfman creeping in regarding some of the characters he enjoys ?

[david r]

I don't believe for a millisecond that Claremont has "nothing left to say" or "is afraid to change the X-Men." After learning his radical ideas for the X-Men & their world planned for the 1990s, YEAH HE HAS A LOT TO SAY!

Claremont has said time immortal that he wants to move the X-Men FORWARD . Each and every time he has attempted this since 2000, it has mysteriously halted and we were left with abandoned plots and stories in disarray.

[xmanson]

The Outback thing will never happen again. I don't think it's becuase the writers won't shake up stuff, it's because the status quo needs to be mantained by editorial. Well, there areg guys like Whedon, who i guess has free reign, but is just regurgitating old stuff (and the bile is indeed felt), but most of the others can't change things too much.

The X-Men going down on sales is actually a good thing in my opinion, it gives Marvel the idea of being more risky with their choices for the line in order to get more attention. Or just goign back to the old staus quo yet again.

My post makes no sense.

[david r]

Marv Wolfman is an interesting example. I can see how a writer could just "run out of steam". Claremont even did this around 1986, and the story goes he walked into editor Ann Nocenti's office and stated he wanted off the book. That he had run out of ideas. Ann Nocenti simply told Claremont to go back to his desk and dream up something shocking.

He did, and that was the Mutant Massacre. Notice the X-Men lineup began to radically change after Mutant Massacre? Claremont was breathing new life for himself, and for the fans. So unlike Marv Wolfman & the Teen Titans, Claremont found a way to revitalize his interest, as well as keep the X-Men vital and exciting with new exotic lineups and different locales (Australia.)