Why did Marvel stop having references to stories?

[drwho]

I used to like it when Marvel would actually take the time and actually mention the issues with the numbers for things that happened in the past if they had something to do with the current story. Why did Marvel stop doing this?

[Citizen V]

That`s a good point,i noticed this.When a character would mention something and a * would be near the comment,and a small box would have information.Another example of Marvel`s money saving efferts.

[Tater]

EIC Joe said that it's to make new readers feel welcome. At least I think he's the one who said it. It's like they feel they missed too much if they are many references. So I believe that is the reason.

[wonderman73]

This is something that actually helped me to fill in the back stories when I first started collecting comics, 20-some years ago. I never felt alienated by not knowing the character's or title's history. I never thought that when I started reading Thor, Uncanny X-Men, and X-Factor during the "Mutant Massacre" that I'd automatically need to know anything about Beta Ray Bill, when did Thunderbird die, the fact that X-Factor was actually the original X-Men, etc. I eventually learned alot of Marvel's history by reading Marvel Saga. Then I just started picking up random back issues to flesh out some of the stories or characters.

This whole "we don't want to alienate new readers" is just a cop-out. I'd venture to guess that the writers and editors couldn't even accurately quote the issue that some historical story element happened!

Oh well...

[Canemacar]

Those editorial boxes are GOOD for new readers. Why doesn't Joe understand that?

*misses the boxes*

[StoneGold]

That`s a good point,i noticed this.When a character would mention something and a * would be near the comment,and a small box would have information.Another example of Marvel`s money saving efferts.

Please, explain to me how this saves money. I really want to know. Letterers aren't paid by the word. And the ink is getting used regardless.

[Omega Alpha]

This whole "we don't want to alienate new readers" is just a cop-out. I'd venture to guess that the writers and editors couldn't even accurately quote the issue that some historical story element happened!


No, is not that. Is just that Joe Q thinks if you don't know in which issue did the mentioned event happened or what story the character is talking about, you're going to buy it to see what's the story or the characters referring too.

[Exodus]

Ridiculous, ive also been missing these editors notes.

Ofcourse u cant overuse them, but as an X fan who came in after Inferno, being referenced to what issues ppl where talking about always proved a great help to tracking that issue down.

-Exodus

[JoeK32880]

Yeah, there was a time when they would have them every page just referncing the last issue. That was a bit much.

In the 70s they would use them to describe the exact point in continuity (some even had panel breakdowns!) where a guest appearance took place. Those were helpful, but not really necessary.

Marvel still uses them once in a while. I know She-Hulk had one not too long ago.

I really like them myself and dont understand why they'r enot used anymore. For instance, while reading Civil War: The Confession I wanted to know where to find the Doom/Iron Man in Camelot story. I'd heard of it before, but didn't know what comics it was in. No reason not to have a reference in there.

[Berkey]

thats the one thing I wished the Civil War would have done during the mian issues like "see Punisher #2 or Young avenger #2 for details" so the tie-ins were more 'essential'. Aside from spiderman and some fantastic four and black pantheri ssues(could arguee some others) most of the tie-ins were not needed at all more of a cah in for the completeists, but with refrences they could have perhaps made all the tie-ins more essential. (I know that to work in all that information would make the CW issues like 10 total instead of 7 but you get the idea)

[StoneGold]

They do tend to stick them in the letters pages. The theory is that they make the trades look like crap.

[JoeK32880]

They do tend to stick them in the letters pages. The theory is that they make the trades look like crap.

They don't even have letters pages anymore.

Maybe a couple times a year. And no letters page I've seen since Busiek's Avengers has had annotations.

[StoneGold]

They don't even have letters pages anymore.

Maybe a couple times a year. And no letters page I've seen since Busiek's Avengers has had annotations.

Um, that's not true. They started putting them back in a while ago. Deadpool writes his own.

[JoeK32880]

Um, that's not true. They started putting them back in a while ago. Deadpool writes his own.

Maybe Cable and Deadpool has a letters page every issue, but I buy a lot of Marvel books (not that one) and none of them consistently print a letters page every issue, except Ant-Man.

And even then, there still aren't any annotations.

Plus, like my example with CW: Confessions, no one-shots have letters pages.

If they think they make trades look like crap (I disagree), it would be easy enough to just remove them in collection. They have no problem removing credits or altering dialogue.

[The Shadow]

Marvel also use to never do the recap page.

Joe Q said they switched from editors notes to the recap page to catch readers up on a story without making them feel they have to buy every issue mentioned.

[Loner]

Marvel also use to never do the recap page.

Joe Q said they switched from editors notes to the recap page to catch readers up on a story without making them feel they have to buy every issue mentioned.

I thought the recpa page was because even when you DO buy every issue, you can't tell what the hell is going on. Like X-Men and Uncanny X-men, where I haven't had a freakin clue what's been going on for years now.

[The Shadow]

I thought the recpa page was because even when you DO buy every issue, you can't tell what the hell is going on. Like X-Men and Uncanny X-men, where I haven't had a freakin clue what's been going on for years now.

Over at Newsarama in a Joe Friday's Quesada said they ditched the yellow boxes in favor of the recap page at the start of the issue.

[The Shadow]

OK

Found the quote at Newsarama.

RQ: I know you don't use those editorial boxes anymore. You know the ones that would say "last issue" or "issue #200". I would like to know why they aren't used. I think they would be especially helpful to new readers when trying to track down issues they have missed. They especially could have been used in a lot of the CW tie-ins. Like in ASM #537. For some it would clarify what part takes place during or after CW #5 and #6.

Joe Quesada: The footnote boxes were very important to our business when our business was primarily on the newsstand and stories were much more of a continuous soap opera and not constructed in story arcs. But, while they may have been informative back in the day, I find them annoying during the course of a story today. They became a sort of tradition in Marvel comics, but to me they take you out of the story.

Imagine if you will, you’re watching your favorite weekly TV show and as your enthralled in the middle of a scene suddenly they pause the action and a voice over announcer’s comes on saying, “for more info on the background behind this scene, make sure to pick up the Season 3 DVD set, disc 4, chapter 11.”

I would be first, infuriated, and secondly infuriated again because it takes me out of the scene. Now, imagine that happening in the middle of your favorite movie. So, while we haven’t banned them altogether, we encourage our editors and writers that, when possible, if you need a footnote, add the asterisk and then place the footnote in the letter’s page.

Also, all of our books come with a handy dandy recap page that should give you all the info you need. And the final thing to consider is that the footnotes would be redundant and kind of annoying in the trade paperback of the story.

Then the next week he followed it up with this after a deluge of questions:

NRAMA: Going back to last week again, it seems that there was a bit of a furor over your comment about footnotes. Do you want to elaborate on this anymore? And what do you say to critics that claim that the footnotes can be used to get customers interested perhaps in some older stories?

Joe Quesada: [laughs] Yeah, I've noticed that a few folks here and across the net got themselves all in a tizzy about this, so let me clear a few things up.

I never said we don't do footnotes, I said we discourage writers from using them. So, it's not like they're banned from our comics. As a matter of fact if you look closely, you can find a few with them. So, to me this just sounds like people that want to complain.

Now, what I don't understand is the following.

1.) If almost everything you need to know is in the recap page, why are people upset about footnotes? You're getting the information that a footnote would contain, they're just not in a footnote caption.

2.) As you stated above, if the recap page doesn't cover it, and we really feel we need a footnote, we add the asterisk and the reader can find the footnote information in the letter's page. Again, why are folks so upset that there isn't a footnote caption, there is, it's just in the back of the book as opposed to within the story. Are they saying that they need it right on the page in order to get the info? Hmmm.

3.) If a particular back issue or trade is important in order to understand a particular current story arc, again, we would flag the mention of that past event as it occurs during the course of a story with an asterisk within the caption or balloon it appears in. We would then include all the pertinent information in the letters page.

Also, keep in mind that we don't write our stories that way anymore. We try to make them as inclusive and none confusing as possible, I think that's where the letter's page comes in handy. I never understood why comic books and comic continuity had to be a puzzle only solvable by the most hardcore Fanman?

4.) And finally, this has been in effect for nearly six yearsz! Six years without footnotes and nobody has complained nor noticed really until I said something last week [laughs].

So, yeah, I think we're covering all the bases with respect to getting the fans all the info they need, it's just not in those little yellow caption boxes.

[Yaw]

I agree with Quesada. I was reading back issues of various titles from the late 90s and some of them have at least 3 or 4 boxes on every page. Now I am a psychologist by profession and everything we say, needs to be cited, therefore I am use to to this. However when reading a comic book it does take you out of the story. You can get away with this in a novel moreso than in a graphic novel/comicbook because the art isn't an issue. However in comic books where the art is as fundamental to the story as the words itself, captions take up space on the page which hurts the art of the book. I found this a really big distracting feature of the late 90s Black Panther series. REading it in trade, there are caption boxes giving definitions EVERY issue as well as references to other/former issues. It made the pages way too wordy and hurt the art in my opinion.

[DDM]

EIC Joe said that it's to make new readers feel welcome. At least I think he's the one who said it. It's like they feel they missed too much if they are many references. So I believe that is the reason.

Joe Quesada is underestimating the intelligence of the comic book audience. References clear things up by pointing to a story, character, or event to add context; furthermore, the references enforce the Marvel Universe is indeed interconnected.

I believe Joe Quesada stopped the references because he knows many of his editors just does not know enough of Marvel Universe history. If you're going to work for any comic book company in an editorial capacity, it should be absolute that the editor knows much of the history he's editing. Otherwise, his ignorance will have disasterous consequences.

Moreover, Joe Quesada believes continuity--in & of itself--is "bad." Continuity is like some four-letter word to him. As a result, the Marvel Universe remains very fractured & many contradictions remain.

[StoneGold]

Joe Quesada is underestimating the intelligence of the comic book audience. References clear things up by pointing to a story, character, or event to add context; furthermore, the references enforce the Marvel Universe is indeed interconnected.


Wouldn't that be overestimating? Reference boxes are kind of hand-holding though the information process. You've got this backwards. You're stupider than Quesada thinks, not smarter.

[Dusty.]

I was shocked to see this return in the latest issue of Fantastic Four. I loved the little editor notes.

[DDM]

Wouldn't that be overestimating? Reference boxes are kind of hand-holding though the information process. You've got this backwards. You're stupider than Quesada thinks, not smarter.

Any non-fiction book has references throughout (posted at the end of the book per chapter from the sources of the quote); it is just standard practice. Comics book references function in a similar manner. The references add context & help the reader.

It's not "handholding" at all.

[Titan76]

4.) And finally, this has been in effect for nearly six yearsz! Six years without footnotes and nobody has complained nor noticed really until I said something last week [laughs].
Sorry Joe that's not correct. I remember this type of question being ask to you a few years ago and you gave the same BS respond. Hell I believe we have even discuss this on this board a few times.

I for one liked the footnotes. The recap pages aren't to bad but I prefer to know what issue a certain event or story happen in rather then given me a sort paragraph about it. But that's just me.

[Loner]

Joe Quesada is underestimating the intelligence of the comic book audience. References clear things up by pointing to a story, character, or event to add context; furthermore, the references enforce the Marvel Universe is indeed interconnected.

I believe Joe Quesada stopped the references because he knows many of his editors just does not know enough of Marvel Universe history. If you're going to work for any comic book company in an editorial capacity, it should be absolute that the editor knows much of the history he's editing. Otherwise, his ignorance will have disasterous consequences.

Moreover, Joe Quesada believes continuity--in & of itself--is "bad." Continuity is like some four-letter word to him. As a result, the Marvel Universe remains very fractured & many contradictions remain.

I think you hit the nail on the head. Continuity went out the window at about the same time as those boxes.

[jpk]

I used to like it when Marvel would actually take the time and actually mention the issues with the numbers for things that happened in the past if they had something to do with the current story. Why did Marvel stop doing this?

Because it's aggravating as hell to be reading an issue and have to stop every other page to read a generally convoluted and insider-ish explainer box.

I've been reading comics for 25 years and the two things I don't miss are thought boxes and asterisks.

[Sentinel K]

I don't see what people's problems are.

Anthing vital to the story in an issue is mentioned in the re-cap page at the start.

If it isn't then it probably WILL appear in a footnote box or else it just isn't important enough.

Seriously, i think people just look for any crappy reason to diss Joe Q.

[Will.S]

I think you hit the nail on the head. Continuity went out the window at about the same time as those boxes.
No it didn't.

There are plenty of books using continuity when need be right now.

[DDM]

I don't see what people's problems are.

Anthing vital to the story in an issue is mentioned in the re-cap page at the start.

If it isn't then it probably WILL appear in a footnote box or else it just isn't important enough.

Seriously, i think people just look for any crappy reason to diss Joe Q.

The recap page summarizes the current storyline. Any references are ignored throughout the story.

This practice seems to imply readers have a short attention span which is usually not the case. Indeed, reading expands attention spans.

[Ernasto]

EIC Joe said that it's to make new readers feel welcome. At least I think he's the one who said it. It's like they feel they missed too much if they are many references.

Isn't that why they've created that crappy Marvel Ultimate universe? Yes, I'm not a fan, and yes I've read some Ultimate titels..

[The Shadow]

the references enforce the Marvel Universe is indeed interconnected.
How does the recap page not do that?

I believe Joe Quesada stopped the references because he knows many of his editors just does not know enough of Marvel Universe history.
Your opinion of course but with Wikipedia etc., available I think you might be reaching.

Moreover, Joe Quesada believes continuity--in & of itself--is "bad."
Where has he ever said that???

As a result, the Marvel Universe remains very fractured & many contradictions remain.
Of course you neglect to mention the fact they have been tightening up the universe feel the last few years.

[The Shadow]

Any non-fiction book has references throughout

Emphasis ends this line of discussion.

[The Shadow]

Sorry Joe that's not correct. I remember this type of question being ask to you a few years ago and you gave the same BS respond.

If he's saying the same thing several years later... how is it a BS response???

[Sentinel K]

The recap page summarizes the current storyline. Any references are ignored throughout the story.

This practice seems to imply readers have a short attention span which is usually not the case. Indeed, reading expands attention spans.

But if its not important to the current storyline then what is the point in referencing it?

[DDM]

But if its not important to the current storyline then what is the point in referencing it?

For example, throughout X-Treme X-Men #19-23, Storm mentions her hatred for Emma Frost--when as the White Queen, Frost used her psyche exchange gun to transfer her mind into Storm's body (& vice versa)--yet not a single reference by the editors is made, despite the continuous references Storm had made in the books. I think the editors should have cited Uncanny X-Men #151-152 for the reference. I only knew what Storm & Frost was talking about since I know the story. Yet, for the reader who does not know the story, it detracts from the story because the editors have not fulfilled their job description.

Part of the reasoning for leaving out reference boxes seems to be it hurts the TPB, yet this reasoning falls on its face considering all of the Essential books retain their original reference boxes.

I think it really boils down to Quesada's contempt for Marvel continuity when--in truth--Stan Lee built the Marvel Universe by the same references Quesada abhors.

[ultimatespyder20]

I wish they would still do this. I always liked Editor's note, I don't know why, but I do. It really makes the Marvel U seem to be one big world, instead of 30 different books.

Alec

[mgs]

I gotta agree with DDM on this. Editorially, a 'recap' is a fairly lazy way of editing stories that have years of continuity.

I guess it saves time and maybe money, and in Joe's opinion, may also open up new storylines for the Marvel U., but it's still nice to know where some things that go on in the books came from.

[Ernasto]

So Qesada says it works for about 6 years without hearing any 'complaints', but what about the previous 50-60 years of comicbooks WITH references? That worked too now, didn't it? Even the Dutch publications, by JuniorPress, had customized references to other Dutch reprints, and it worked. It made me curious to other comicbooks and I believe it made Marvel some more money. Commercially thinking: why have a recap in a comicbook, if you can refer to an other comicbook, and you have to buy it to realize what happened?

[Berkey]

I always liked the notes b/c it sometimes led me to buy other comics and sometimes keep buying them. "see New Avengers #1 for details" then hey just maybe ill see what that was all about and if it looks good ill keep it on my pull list

[Yaw]

If the situation is described through dialogue then there is no need to reference the actual book. I think some of you are failing to realize that continuity is so extensive that referencing old comics in alot of cases would be commercially pointless. MArvel won't be making any money on Uncanny X-Men #151 (even when Xtreme X-Men was out). Back in the old days of Marvel the editor's box often denoted only a few back issues. Comics are a visual craft, instead of citing back issues, showing former scenes provides for better storytelling. For example look at Brubaker's current Captain America run. It would be bland beyond belief if he settled on using citations to tell backstories instead of actually incorporating them into the visuals. I think this practice is especially unnecessary in the Internet Age.

[niall mc cann]

:(

He brought back the pointless, interfering crossover.

He may as well bring back the eds' notes too, i suppose.

[ultramandingo]

....... and the hostes fruit pie adds ( slurpee cups too!!!!)

[NickThompson]

Those editorial boxes are GOOD for new readers. Why doesn't Joe understand that?

*misses the boxes*
When I was a new reader that would have put me off, because it always felt to me like "Yeah, we can't be bothered to tell you the whole story. Spend some more money to find the rest out!". If we need to know something, tell us in the book. If we don't need to know it, why clog the panels up with it?



If they have to be used, I'd rather they were on the letters page over interrupting the comics themselves. I believe Wolverine Origins does this.

[garin]

In a world that contains resources like Wikipedia, there's no need to clutter up the books themselves with the information. If you want to know, it's easy enough to find out.

[Titan76]

If he's saying the same thing several years later... how is it a BS response???
Because the first time he said this it was BS and now that he is saying it again several years later it still is BS duh.:p

Seriously though, I just hate it when he compares footnotes in comics to something like TV shows or movies when he says footnotes are like someone making an announcement over the movie during the middle of an important scene. Infact here's his quote:

Imagine if you will, you’re watching your favorite weekly TV show and as your enthralled in the middle of a scene suddenly they pause the action and a voice over announcer’s comes on saying, “for more info on the background behind this scene, make sure to pick up the Season 3 DVD set, disc 4, chapter 11.”

I have been reading comics for a while now and it isn't to hard not to notice the footnote. Hell I use to never notice the footnote until I read the book a second time. I like footnotes because sometimes if a character is referring to a certain event that happen in a comic I don't pick up it gives me the issue number to check it out.

Like I said I like the footnotes and think they are better for new readers but I'm not the one in charge at Marvel, but I can still give me opinion about this.

[JoeK32880]

There should definately be refrence boxes. As mentioned, recap pages don't cover what issues the events occured in, and often only cover the last couple issues or whatever of the current arc anyway. As a curious reader, I like to know what issue those described events occured in.

Now, if they stuck an annotation box in the letters page that would be great too. But most of these books do not even have letters pages. It should be something done every issue, then collected in the trade as well. Even if it's in a letters page it won't make the trade.

And the original point of the reference boxes wasn't to say, "go buy this back issue" since they don't make money off them and back issues weren't even available (except when people sold their collections, no store kept old issues) when these things started, the point was "don't miss the next issue, something Important might happen." So that's why they were there, to make more money on future issues.

[Omega Alpha]

Joe Quesada is underestimating the intelligence of the comic book audience. References clear things up by pointing to a story, character, or event to add context; furthermore, the references enforce the Marvel Universe is indeed interconnected.

Yes, they could just have the references at the end of the issue, in the letters page. It would be much easier, and wouldn't disturb the story in anyway.


I believe Joe Quesada stopped the references because he knows many of his editors just does not know enough of Marvel Universe history. If you're going to work for any comic book company in an editorial capacity, it should be absolute that the editor knows much of the history he's editing. Otherwise, his ignorance will have disasterous consequences.


Not really. Because, even if that was true, the editor could just, well, ask the writer which issue he's talking about.

Like i said, it's only to sell more.

[The Shadow]

He brought back the pointless, interfering crossover.

... he did?

I didn't know they went away.

[StoneGold]

... he did?

I didn't know they went away.

It's been since Maximum Security. Thing to remember though is he was the one who took them away.

[niall mc cann]

It's been since Maximum Security. Thing to remember though is he was the one who took them away.

Yeah, i remember.:)

I don't even dislike Joe Q, i think he's done good for Marvel, and like it or not he has a strong vision for the company and doesn't mind taking risks and making changes.

I really liked back in the day when Marvel Knights were some of the best books on the shelves (Punisher, Black Panther, Marvel Boy etc.) and the influence was starting to bleed into the other books too as he took over the reins of the company.

I think he does a difficult job well, and there's no need for him to worry about disaffected fanboys on the internet like me.

It's just that i remember really liking the way books were allowed to be their own thing back in his heyday, and there wasn't anyone worrying about events in Thor impacting Daredevil, whereas now it seems Civil War is just over and WWH about to begin. We're hopping straight from one crossover to the other and a small handful of writers are calling the shots not just for their own books, but for the entire MU, just like in the bad old days.

If i were told WWH would be the last crossover for three or four years, i wouldn't feel too bad about that, is all i'm saying.

[DDM]

In a world that contains resources like Wikipedia, there's no need to clutter up the books themselves with the information. If you want to know, it's easy enough to find out.

Wikipedia can be half right or completely miss the point. For this reason, it's not a reliable source to gain comprehensive information. The website is a good starting point, but you must use other resources since Wikipedia is wrong alot of the time.

[garin]

Wikipedia can be half right or completely miss the point. For this reason, it's not a reliable source to gain comprehensive information. The website is a good starting point, but you must use other resources since Wikipedia is wrong alot of the time.I don't disagree. It was an example of one of many resources fans have available, these message boards being another.

[DDM]

I don't disagree. It was an example of one of many resources fans have available, these message boards being another.

The comic books themselves with reference boxes would clear alot of confusion up coming directly from the source itself; however, the problem is the source has his wires mixed up & cites the wrong book. But at least it is a start.

The bottom line is Marvel must hire an equivilant of Peter Sanderson, Mark Gruenwald, Len Wein, Jim Shooter, Ann Nocenti, Louise Simonson....

In the meantime, Marvel is going to create more problems by cherry picking continuity & not citing references when the story needs them the cited.

[froma]

I would rather see numbered footnotes with the issue(s) being cited at the bottom of the letters page or something of the sort. I never liked the boxes showing up in the panels themselves.

[Joe Acro]

It is my understanding that there are various reasons for why the boxes disappeared. These range from making new readers feel less overwhelmed to not breaking the fourth wall to readers having Internet resources.

Truly, though, I love them. They provide me with information. For example, if someone mentions something these days, I sometimes wonder if that was an actual story or if it was something that happened off-panel (Iron Man going to Camelot comes to mind). With the footnotes, I rarely had that problem. In many cases, the details of the story in question are irrelevant to the current story (and if they are, they would be referenced), so it was a way of saying, "If you want more details and/or are intrigued, go here." I have recently learned that these can also serve as a marketing tool. When I attend my next convention, I've determined to look for comics that were noted within the ones I own (that I don't already own) both in order to better understand some events and so that anyone who might read my collection never has to worry about not getting the full story.

I do admit that there may come times when the use of footnotes is silly, such as referencing the issue number of a first encounter between two long-fighting characters.

It should be the title's editor (not the Editor-in-Chief) that decides whether or not they will be used and in what instances.

[riftt]

reference boxes are the worst. I am so glad they got rid of them. Flip through the Avengers Galactic Storm tpb's - do we really need them to give us what the SHIELD acronym stands for in. every. issue. ???

[DDM]

reference boxes are the worst. I am so glad they got rid of them. Flip through the Avengers Galactic Storm tpb's - do we really need them to give us what the SHIELD acronym stands for in. every. issue. ???

The editors & writers work from reader based writing, hence the reference boxes.

I still believe the real reason the reference boxes have vanished is due to many of Quesada's "new" hires don't know their Marvel history.

[Joe Acro]

reference boxes are the worst. I am so glad they got rid of them. Flip through the Avengers Galactic Storm tpb's - do we really need them to give us what the SHIELD acronym stands for in. every. issue. ???
I do agree that, after a while, that became annoying. Many readers, such as myself, can grasp the concept this is a government organization, much like how many Americans know that the FBI and CIA are government organizations but don't necessarily know what the letters stand for. I don't see the need for constant use of that particulate reference box, but it does help if it hasn't been seen in a few months (because otherwise I'll forget).

This problem might be remedied with the Previously... pages.

[Kirk G]

I always enjoyed them as a kid. The early Marvel Comics would either reference the original appearance or last appearance of the villian, and how they escaped to come back again... or else, they'd clue you into something that happened in a one-shot issue adventure that you didn't have and had no hope of ever finding in a used book store, school white elephant sale, or yard sale. The effect was one of tying the Marvel Universe together... but I admit after years of X-men comics, I didn't care about them any more than I did the story.

So, I can see if the story revolves around a twist or a continuity event in the recent past, a footnote might be helpful if not essential. There were surprise plot twists in the past that had clues scattered in the books, and to have some of t hem referenced was very helpful... but the amazing top of the line reference list had to have been the additional pages to Avengers Forever!

[xarathos]

The problem would be ....*

*In Civil War #4 , Clone Thor kills Goliath. Wait, that's lame for a big event. Who is Goliath? It's not Henry Pym is it? -Ed.

Or

* issue 25 of Captain America, Volume 7

or * Shadrac first appeared in Amazing Spider-man issue #443 Volume 1/Issue #2 Volume 2 -cofused editor Joe Quesada.

[DoctorDoom]

Marvel also use to never do the recap page.

Joe Q said they switched from editors notes to the recap page to catch readers up on a story without making them feel they have to buy every issue mentioned.
I love the recap page, but still want some reference notes. But, hey, it'll be back soon enough, I'm sure.

[Tazirai]

I really feel that mavrels "new" direction will alienate older and newer readers.
Things just dont seem the same. It's okay to shake up the house a little. but to make it unrecognizable is folly.

[Omega Alpha]

I really feel that mavrels "new" direction will alienate older and newer readers.
Things just dont seem the same. It's okay to shake up the house a little. but to make it unrecognizable is folly.

You see, that's the problem right here: when Marvel shakes up the status quo, peole complain that it's unrecognizable and want the old stuff back; when Marvel gets gack with the old stuff, people complain how changes never stick and there is only the illusion of change.

[DDM]

You see, that's the problem right here: when Marvel shakes up the status quo, peole complain that it's unrecognizable and want the old stuff back; when Marvel gets gack with the old stuff, people complain how changes never stick and there is only the illusion of change.

Shaking things up is fine. However, for example, I believe it is a huge error to give Spider-Man horror elements with "The Other" storyline; furthermore, his inclusion in The New Avengers hurts his status as an "outsider" average Joe because Aunt May is living in the AVENGERS TOWER; moreover, Peter's public "outing" of his real identity seems to be lazy writing.

Marvel is basically throwing out the fundamental elements of what makes Peter Parker Spider-Man, yet they keep insisting he's the real Spider-Man. Personally, I hardly recognize the character anymore save he looks & acts like Peter Parker in some ways.

Overall, Marvel is throwing out the fundamental elements of the major books such as The New Avengers (which is really written as The Defenders), Spider-Man, etc al. Quesada does not know any of the books' distinct voices. He just thinks if you hire a writer & hype up the book, it will sell. Never mind, Quesada has compromised the books' internal integrity.

[kate-pryde]

Those editorial boxes are GOOD for new readers. Why doesn't Joe understand that?

*misses the boxes*

I miss them to. With the internet now, it makes it so much easier to go find information about an issue you missed. You don't need to find a back-issue, you can find a summary and figure out what's going on. It makes it easier for new readers to get caught up.

But what Joe Q says goes along with something I heard a few years ago from a friend of mine who was working on a tv show. The network prevented the producers from having previously on segments to begin the show, because market research showed that new viewers thought that shows with previously on segments would be difficult to follow. So instead, the producers had to make the first act of the show a "let's get new viewers caught up" act where the characters had awkward dialogue explaining everything that was going on which was slow and boring. The show was retooled a couple times and then cancelled. But the whole reason the show failed was all of the stupid things the network was doing to try to make the show easier for new viewers to follow. :rolleyes:

I think the same type of stupid market research is at play here.

X-Men in the 80s and 90s were just as confusing, but things like (possibly excessive) comments and thought boxes, editor comment boxes explaining things or issue references and those summary pages listing the characters, all got new readers caught up pretty quickly.

Nowadays, you see so many people posting on message boards with questions that could so easily be answered if there was proper comment boxes and summary pages.

I hate that continuity is suffering to make things easier for new readers to understand when adding comments would solve the problem.

[DDM]

I miss them to. With the internet now, it makes it so much easier to go find information about an issue you missed. You don't need to find a back-issue, you can find a summary and figure out what's going on. It makes it easier for new readers to get caught up.

But what Joe Q says goes along with something I heard a few years ago from a friend of mine who was working on a tv show. The network prevented the producers from having previously on segments to begin the show, because market research showed that new viewers thought that shows with previously on segments would be difficult to follow. So instead, the producers had to make the first act of the show a "let's get new viewers caught up" act where the characters had awkward dialogue explaining everything that was going on which was slow and boring. The show was retooled a couple times and then cancelled. But the whole reason the show failed was all of the stupid things the network was doing to try to make the show easier for new viewers to follow. :rolleyes:

I think the same type of stupid market research is at play here.

X-Men in the 80s and 90s were just as confusing, but things like (possibly excessive) comments and thought boxes, editor comment boxes explaining things or issue references and those summary pages listing the characters, all got new readers caught up pretty quickly.

Nowadays, you see so many people posting on message boards with questions that could so easily be answered if there was proper comment boxes and summary pages.

I hate that continuity is suffering to make things easier for new readers to understand when adding comments would solve the problem.

But Marvel has to realize not all of their audience is on the internet; therefore, the comment does not make any sense. Quesada has to account for all total readers. Furthermore, I think leaving out the reference boxes has added to the confusion for the readers as well.

Quesada can rationalize it all he wants. The reference notes are essential & part of being an editor to clear things up for the reader.

[niall mc cann]

Quesada can rationalize it all he wants. The reference notes are essential & part of being an editor to clear things up for the reader.

Essential to what?

[The Shadow]

Quesada has to account for all total readers.
He'll never be able to please all the people all of the time.

You cannot categorize all total readers and include someone like me who have been reading for 25 years and someone who bought their very first comic today.

[jaxcs]

But Marvel has to realize not all of their audience is on the internet; therefore, the comment does not make any sense. Quesada has to account for all total readers. Furthermore, I think leaving out the reference boxes has added to the confusion for the readers as well.

Quesada can rationalize it all he wants. The reference notes are essential & part of being an editor to clear things up for the reader.
I think that's right. When we watch a movie and there are parts that we don't understand because they are poorly introduced, we don't forgive that lapse and say that we need to go to the net, we say that the movie was bad because it was confusing. If we don't forgive this in movies or TV shows, why be generous here? The work needs to stand on it's own merits. Research into back story can enhance a story but it shouldn't be required to understand a story.

I wonder if part of the reason for the loss of editorial notes and thought balloons is because of a change in the demographics of readers. At 3 dollars or more a pop, how many readers are children between 7 and 12? With an older reader, more sophisticated story lines can be attempted and some story telling techniques such as thought balloons can be jettisoned because they were often used for exposition.

In an old issue of IM I read recently, after Jim Rhodes caused a car to explode to escape from cops, we get a thought balloon saying that he hated to do that but he knew the cops would be ok because they were too far away to be seriously hurt. This reassurance is important to kids because they should know that the blowing up a car in this circumstance didn't actually hurt anyone and that the hero remained a hero and did not become a cop killing thug. Older readers, it is felt, don't need this kind of hand holding. (Although clearly sometimes we need it as well. Imagine how many threads on the CW forum we could have avoided on Cap's aggressive behavior had we been given a similar thought balloon in CW2 where Cap tossed a shield agent out of a car.)

I also like editorial commentary because they serve a purpose that recap pages don't, namely to reference events in older storylines, not simply a summary of the current storyline. I don't think it's necessary for the sheild acronym to be explained in every issue, but if an event is referenced in a current issue that occurred elsewhere, a reference note would be welcome. Right now we get almost nothing.

[StoneGold]

. If we don't forgive this in movies or TV shows, why be generous here?

We don't do it in movies because movies aren't generally referencing 10 year old continuity. It is happening more and more often on television though. Never mind soap operas, but you ever try to figure out some of the continuity flaws in 24? Or some of the character pop ups in Sopranos? Sometimes they'll have a guy who hasn't appeared for a season or two, and they have him just show up like he was on last week. And we're talking arguably one of the best loved and critiqued TV shows of all time here.

[The Shadow]

We don't do it in movies because movies aren't generally referencing 10 year old continuity.
Or 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or (in some cases) 60 year old stories!!!

And in comics things are added, subtracted and changed all the time. What was once "in" continuity may be "out" now... so why would the editors reference something that's "out"?

[ForEverAncien]

Some folks don't have that fine tool, called the internet at their beck and call.

And some don't go to the Libraray either.:D
In a world that contains resources like Wikipedia, there's no need to clutter up the books themselves with the information. If you want to know, it's easy enough to find out.

[Jake V]

But Marvel has to realize not all of their audience is on the internet; therefore, the comment does not make any sense. Quesada has to account for all total readers. Furthermore, I think leaving out the reference boxes has added to the confusion for the readers as well.

Quesada can rationalize it all he wants. The reference notes are essential & part of being an editor to clear things up for the reader.

I desperately never want to see editorial boxes in comics. Therefore it's impossible to account for all total readers.

[darkhawk76]

I miss editorial boxes, they never took me "out of the story" - most cases it gave me a better understanding of the current situation.

I find the recap pages a bit annoying, first they take away a page of art or it doesn't alway cover (what I think) is relevant.

compared to having a couple of "see #1" boxes during a story, it seem like a waste of page.

Also, keep in mind that we don't write our stories that way anymore. We try to make them as inclusive and none confusing as possible, I think that's where the letter's page comes in handy. I never understood why comic books and comic continuity had to be a puzzle only solvable by the most hardcore Fanman?

also Joe's argument above kinda contridicts the way Marvel was set up, I was lead to believe that Stan Lee wrote his stories is such a way that "every issue is someone's first issue". Surely a one off exposition line, with a reference box is simple enough.

I've said before and I'll say again, I'm not expecting (or wanting) Spider-Man to reference the fact he once had 2 sugars in his tea waaaaaay back AS-M #70, but I do think it's reasonable to think that New York getting blown up my Xorn would have some acknowledgment in other New York based comics

if the argument good stories trump continuity, then what's to stop a writer now saying I've got this great story I want to do with Steve Rogers or original New Warriors Night Thrasher & Namorita (I'll just ignore the fact they're all dead)

[jaxcs]

Or 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or (in some cases) 60 year old stories!!!

And in comics things are added, subtracted and changed all the time. What was once "in" continuity may be "out" now... so why would the editors reference something that's "out"?

Well, you wouldn't expect them to reference things that are out; but why not reference things that are in? I think the point you raise isn't a problem with editorial commentary per say, rather it's a problem with the writers not knowing their own continuity.

[DDM]

Well, you wouldn't expect them to reference things that are out; but why not reference things that are in? I think the point you raise isn't a problem with editorial commentary per say, rather it's a problem with the writers not knowing their own continuity.

I think the problem boils down that the gatekeepers--the editors--do not know enough Marvel continuity, including important major storylines as we as obscure pieces of relevant information; therefore, with a breakdown with the editors comes a breakdown with the writers. As a result, the readers get screwed.

The references remain a guide for the reader, almost like a map which also helps the editors & writers too. However, Joe Quesada has contempt for continuity & has not enforced it since his tenure (he has hired editors who do not know much about the Marvel Universe too reflecting his ideas for Marvel). Quesada basically ignores the fundamental origins of Marvel Comics since Stan Lee cross-referenced constantly between books. Jim Shooter fulfilled Stan Lee's Marvel Universe to its ultimate extent by having his book editors leave numerous references throughout all the books if it was relevant to the story or the reader might be confused for a scene or two.

[niall mc cann]

The references remain a guide for the reader, almost like a map which also helps the editors & writers too. However, Joe Quesada has contempt for continuity & has not enforced it since his tenure (he has hired editors who do not know much about the Marvel Universe too reflecting his ideas for Marvel). Quesada basically ignores the fundamental origins of Marvel Comics since Stan Lee cross-referenced constantly between books. Jim Shooter fulfilled Stan Lee's Marvel Universe to its ultimate extent by having his book editors leave numerous references throughout all the books if it was relevant to the story or the reader might be confused for a scene or two.


So what?

What difference does it make how Stan Lee did things? You seem to forget that what Stan did mostly was write things how he wanted them, using his own best judgement, and disregarding all the conventional "wisdom" that was saying "no Stan, it's essential that you do it this way", which in the end produced better stories for him.

Now Queseda's doing the exact same thing. Why shouldn't he?

[Lord S]

I liked references...but they did, at times, seem a bit much.

I would prefer just a one-page (or half-page) 'Works Cited' type thing at the end of an issue. It would be less irritating, and just as informative as the footnotes.

[kate-pryde]

But Marvel has to realize not all of their audience is on the internet; therefore, the comment does not make any sense. Quesada has to account for all total readers. Furthermore, I think leaving out the reference boxes has added to the confusion for the readers as well.

Quesada can rationalize it all he wants. The reference notes are essential & part of being an editor to clear things up for the reader.

More and more people do have access to the internet, and it doesn't seem like Marvel is really even capitalizing on their website.

With web comics or even the DVDs that Marvel has been putting out, there is the ability to tie those comics into the web, so that if someone is confused, they can click and get more information on a character/event/past issue.

Not everyone is going to be reading online and have internet access, but it something Marvel should be trying to use to their advantage. In the letter pages of X-books, sites like Uncannyxmen.net have been mentioned quite a few times as a place to get information. Marvel should be using their own site, and trying to find ways of helping new readers get caught-up, rather than relying on fansites and Wikipedia to do it for them.

Maybe a solution would be to set-up a section on Marvel.com for each title (say www.marvel.com/uncannyxmen/) that includes all the footnotes, references, the brief character descriptions, and "let's get the new reader" caught up information. Not only would that potentially help the reader (since the information on Marvel.com is rather hard to find), it would also enable Marvel to advertise and sell trades. They put a blurb in the front cover that if you want more information about the title, go to a url on Marvel.com and it has all the information you need, and the editors can add all the footnotes and references they want for an issue.

[The Shadow]

Well, you wouldn't expect them to reference things that are out; but why not reference things that are in?
Because it changes quite a lot.

How would you reference Bucky now? As the uber-cool guy in Brubaker's Cap run or the dorky kid as seen in the Invaders?

The old Bucky accidentally found Cap's identity... Brubaker hinted Bucky was assigned. Now do you reference the old Invaders issues or the new Cap issues?

Same character... different motivations, history and attitudes.

[The Shadow]

As a result, the readers get screwed.

I hate to tell you this... but as a reader I don't feel screwed by not having an editors box. :rolleyes:

[jaxcs]

Because it changes quite a lot.

How would you reference Bucky now? As the uber-cool guy in Brubaker's Cap run or the dorky kid as seen in the Invaders?

The old Bucky accidentally found Cap's identity... Brubaker hinted Bucky was assigned. Now do you reference the old Invaders issues or the new Cap issues?

Same character... different motivations, history and attitudes.

I don't see the issue that you are talking about. Up until about 3 years ago, bucky was dead and any reference to him would be to the earlier issues involving where he was cap's sidekick. Now that he is alive, you have a choice, but the choice depends on what is being referenced. Are you talking about bucky as winter soldier or bucky as cap sidekick? The context of the story determines what footnote you provide. I wouldn't want a listing of every issue he makes an appearance, that would be useless.

<This isn't a spoiler but I'll give a spoiler warning anyway since I'm talking about a comic that just came out. Don't continue reading unless you want to hear about a character in silent war 3. You have been warned.>




I'll give you an example of where I would like a little blurb to orient me. Silent War3 just came out and Layla from x factor happens to be in it. She tells Maddox that she has tried to kill Quicksilver before. What issue? In which X-book did it happen? How did she try and how many times did she try? Did it actually take place within the books or is she talking about something that happened between books? I suppose if you are a Layla fan you would know exactly what is being referenced but I'm not a fan, and I don't know. One little blub saying "see issue xxx" and I would be in good shape, I could go to the issue in question. But, as it is, all I can do is to twiddle my fingers.

[Kirk G]

<This isn't a spoiler but I'll give a spoiler warning anyway since I'm talking about a comic that just came out. Don't continue reading unless you want to hear about a character in silent war 3. You have been warned.>




I'll give you an example of where I would like a little blurb to orient me. Silent War3 just came out and Layla from x factor happens to be in it. She tells Maddox that she has tried to kill Quicksilver before. What issue? In which X-book did it happen? How did she try and how many times did she try? Did it actually take place within the books or is she talking about something that happened between books? I suppose if you are a Layla fan you would know exactly what is being referenced but I'm not a fan, and I don't know. One little blub saying "see issue xxx" and I would be in good shape, I could go to the issue in question. But, as it is, all I can do is to twiddle my fingers.

I'm not sure it's as cut and dried as that.
There is a lot about Layla Miller that we don't know yet.
Also, I recall a scene where Pietro is walking up to the X-factor HQ and Layla is sitting on the front steps. He seems to be warry of her, and she's saying something like, "Leave these people alone, and I'll leave you alone." or "I've already summoned help. You've got 90 seconds left... what do you want to discuss..and I warn you not to try anything...":cool:

I think it was only about three issues ago, but it would definately be referenced by Quicksilver being on the cover... But, yes, a footnote on the issue, if this is it, would be helpful to those who are seeking the backstory. PS: With today's climate of ordering ONLY enough for those who have pre-ordered from Previews to get on my LCBS Pull lilst... it is more and more likely that I have missed an issue in another series I am not on pull for... and so, must know what bagged and boarded issue I am seeking at the next area Comic con... or off ebay... or wherever I can scrounge it up! :rolleyes:

[The Shadow]

I don't see the issue that you are talking about. Up until about 3 years ago, bucky was dead and any reference to him would be to the earlier issues involving where he was cap's sidekick.
How would you reference Bucky's origin?

[Young Avenger]

I always found those reference boxes to as annoying as pop-ups. It always took me out of the story.

[StoneGold]

I'll give you an example of where I would like a little blurb to orient me. Silent War3 just came out and Layla from x factor happens to be in it. She tells Maddox that she has tried to kill Quicksilver before. What issue? In which X-book did it happen? How did she try and how many times did she try? Did it actually take place within the books or is she talking about something that happened between books? I suppose if you are a Layla fan you would know exactly what is being referenced but I'm not a fan, and I don't know. One little blub saying "see issue xxx" and I would be in good shape, I could go to the issue in question. But, as it is, all I can do is to twiddle my fingers.

Here's the question, do you really need to know that for the story to work? For instance, every once in a while, the James Bond movies reference his dead wife. Are you offended that whenever that happens, there isn't a popup onscreen that says "James Bond's wife died in On Her Majesty's Secret Service - Cubby"

[jaxcs]

How would you reference Bucky's origin?

I don't mean to sidestep your concern but I think referencing someone's origin is too broad. This is the subject for a secret origins issue or a marvel encyclopedia bio.

[jaxcs]

Here's the question, do you really need to know that for the story to work? For instance, every once in a while, the James Bond movies reference his dead wife. Are you offended that whenever that happens, there isn't a popup onscreen that says "James Bond's wife died in On Her Majesty's Secret Service - Cubby"

Well, I think that is the million dollar question. when comics were less than a dollar and were sold commonly in news stands, editors were comment heavy because they wanted everyone to follow the story. I don't think we need to go back to that level but in certain cases, I do think it can be useful. In the example I cited, the dialouge between Layla and Maddox lasted 1/2 a page. That's a lot of space, plus she tells us a couple of times that she thinks Quicksilver is evil and how she hates him. She is a central character in this issue and what she has done and how is of interest to me. If you are unable to tell me due to space constraints or story flow concerns, then a note enpowering me to do that work would be welcome.

If by making a story work you mean whether I was able to understand what was going on in the story, yes, I was able to understand. But, I felt disatisfied. To answer your question, I am not offended that popups don't appear in movies outlining every single Bond fact. If he uses a trick car in the current movie, I don't need to know that he used a similar trick car in the 5th and 8th movies. This is movie trivia. But if Bond's wife's death is central to a movie I would like some exposition on that occurance and how it affected him. This is what would make the movie work for me.

[StoneGold]

Well, I think that is the million dollar question. when comics were less than a dollar and were sold commonly in news stands, editors were comment heavy because they wanted everyone to follow the story. I don't think we need to go back to that level but in certain cases, I do think it can be useful. In the example I cited, the dialouge between Layla and Maddox lasted 1/2 a page. That's a lot of space, plus she tells us a couple of times that she thinks Quicksilver is evil and how she hates him. She is a central character in this issue and what she has done and how is of interest to me. If you are unable to tell me due to space constraints or story flow concerns, then a note enpowering me to do that work would be welcome.


But they told you that she hates him and tried to kill him. Is a note telling you where she first started hating him and tried to kill him going to make the story any better, or make you any less confused without having to track down that back issue?

[jaxcs]

But they told you that she hates him and tried to kill him. Is a note telling you where she first started hating him and tried to kill him going to make the story any better, or make you any less confused without having to track down that back issue?

Don't get me wrong, it was a pretty good issue; probably the best so far in the silent war series.

My feeling is that although there are one shots, most comics exist as part of an ongoing series. But, due to availability and price, I will not be collecting every issue. If something interesting happened in an earlier issue that pertains to what I read now, a little help in creating a deeper story would be nice.

Part of what we do as comic readers is to follow a character for years and years. Over time we develop a sense of who that character is. When we say that Cap would never do that or Spidey would definitely do this, our built up understanding of the character is to which we are referring. Layla is a character that is currently undefined to us so when she says something extreme like she tried to kill Q I want to know a bit more about that occurrence. She may happen to be a chaos creature but she looks like a little girl. Without a little help, I will have to accept the statement flatly as is.

Let me ask you, would a single one line comment like really have ruined the book for you? I am not talking about the verbose chatty kind of commentary we sometimes got in the past like "It happened in #xxx true believer!", just something short like "see issue xxx".

[StoneGold]

Let me ask you, would a single one line comment like really have ruined the book for you? I am not talking about the verbose chatty kind of commentary we sometimes got in the past like "It happened in #xxx true believer!", just something short like "see issue xxx".

No, but as the status quo is not having too many reference boxes, the question is are more needed? And you know, occasionally, maybe. I'm not so sure the Layla line needed to be annotated, just because the thing in X-Factor was pretty minor. And worst case scenario, it puts you in the same state of mind as Jamie was.

[The Shadow]

I don't mean to sidestep your concern but I think referencing someone's origin is too broad.

Not at all.

How else would a new reader know about Bucky's origin? They should know where to look for the issue in question (as is the purpose of the Editors Box). And then my question is which origin would you reference?

[The Shadow]

If something interesting happened in an earlier issue that pertains to what I read now, a little help in creating a deeper story would be nice.

But if it's not reference (other than the recap page saying they don't like each other) is it really necessary to the whole story? Will knowing it happened in Issue #999 make reading the issue of Silent War in question any better? And a better question... does not knowing make it any worse?

[DoctorDoom]

But if it's not reference (other than the recap page saying they don't like each other) is it really necessary to the whole story? Will knowing it happened in Issue #999 make reading the issue of Silent War in question any better? And a better question... does not knowing make it any worse?
Well played SHadowman...well played.

[darkhawk76]

But if it's not reference (other than the recap page saying they don't like each other) is it really necessary to the whole story? Will knowing it happened in Issue #999 make reading the issue of Silent War in question any better? And a better question... does not knowing make it any worse?

yes in the former and maybe in the latter

if a writer makes a character's motivations/actions responsive to something that's happened previously, then I'd like to know where that happened. I don't think a simple note saying "see issue #999 for details" is that distracting.

It's not like they'd have to be on every single panel of every single page. As I said before I find the recap pages sometimes a bit vague and a waste of a page of art

[jaxcs]

Not at all.

How else would a new reader know about Bucky's origin? They should know where to look for the issue in question (as is the purpose of the Editors Box). And then my question is which origin would you reference?

At some point, they will have to come up with a streamlined origin and that will be the origin that they will have to reference. It isn't the place of editorial commentary to create new story. It's there to reference older material that pertains to the story we have before us. It would be terrible if the commentary was more interesting or resolved plot rather than the story.

[jaxcs]

But if it's not reference (other than the recap page saying they don't like each other) is it really necessary to the whole story? Will knowing it happened in Issue #999 make reading the issue of Silent War in question any better? And a better question... does not knowing make it any worse?

If we are only talking about the silent war storyline and she never appears again for the remainder of the series, then the answer may be no. It could, but does not necessarily help. But, if your interest extends to Layla the character, then the reminder serves to extend continuity and definitely does help. It rather depends on what you want.