The Black-Tas-Tic Four: Hudlin Talks “Black Panther”

[kitamu re]

Now Adam won't ever have a solo title

that was my point..ypur point about 52 was your own little tangent. the fact that 2,00+ issues seperates black panther from superman should show you the strength of the charater to stand on its own, but since you have an agenda to discredit hudlina nd bP you can continue on with your tangent.

[Ty19]

and yet in all you infinite wisdom..you realize black adam could not carry his own series. T'challa is such a joke he is appearing in two of marvel's flagship titles this month:

1. fantastic four #544
2. Wolverine #52

T'challa, the character, is not a joke. Especially when he is written properly. And keep in mind, in these other 2 series that BP is appearing in, Hudlin ain't writing him. And already he is coming off as his good ol' self again. :D


hudlin is such a joke he has Black panther selling more then superman.

SUPERECWFAN1 already beat me to the punch with this fumble. But still if you look at the previous month's Civil War totals (excluding reprints) Hudlin's BP is consistently the lowest selling CW crossover title in the bunch. Except for January, when he beat out the Blade crossover.:rolleyes:

Aside from the CW crossovers, the last time Hudlin's BP was on his "OWN" (issue #21), the book couldn't beat out Battlestar Galactica, an independent title.:eek:

ICV2 Sales February 2007 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10270.html)
ICV2 Sales January 2007 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10097.html)
ICV2 Sales December 2006 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9907.html)
ICV2 Sales November 2006 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9771.html)
ICV2 Sales October 2006 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/9470.html)


And to even further my argument about the sales impact of being part of this crossover event, Blade's numbers doubled when it was part of the CW crossover. After that, it went back to it's pre-CW totals.

[Daouda]

I gotta give props.

I read some negative comments about the series but it really comes off as nitpicky and holding some kind of grudge. Pissy.

As another poster stated; you read more comments about how a person read an issue expecting it to be bad and being pleasantly surprised.

The comic is a pleasure for me and I LOVE all of the crossovers. It really cements the character in the Marvel Universe. I always liked the FF better than the Avengers or X-men so I'm ecstatic to see T'Challa and Ororo on the team! Blacstatic even:)

Excelsior
Daoud

[SUPERECWFAN1]

that was my point..ypur point about 52 was your own little tangent. the fact that 2,00+ issues seperates black panther from superman should show you the strength of the charater to stand on its own, but since you have an agenda to discredit hudlina nd bP you can continue on with your tangent.


Yeah I'm discrediting you. You claimed Panther sold more than Superman. The agenda is one of your own creation. You post proposed FACT...I post FAST to counter. Its a message board.

I can't help it I beat your fact by the way. My agenda to beat your facts more like it. By the way Superman outsold Panther again.

And Black Adam has 3 of the greatest writers in comics tackling his story which is why its been so darn good. Now ya know why I mentioned it. 52* has been like his solo-title and leads into the next huge event that Adam its rumored starts.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I gotta give props.

I read some negative comments about the series but it really comes off as nitpicky and holding some kind of grudge. Pissy.

As another poster stated; you read more comments about how a person read an issue expecting it to be bad and being pleasantly surprised.

The comic is a pleasure for me and I LOVE all of the crossovers. It really cements the character in the Marvel Universe. I always liked the FF better than the Avengers or X-men so I'm ecstatic to see T'Challa and Ororo on the team! Blacstatic even:)

Excelsior
Daoud

A lot of us don't have anything against the series. Of course I have this ultra secret mission to travel the United States and discredit Black Panther . So I had better not say too much ! :evilsmile :p

[Beast]

and yet in all you infinite wisdom..you realize black adam could not carry his own series:rolleyes:
Neither can Black Panther. Thankfully all those forced crossovers and event tie-ins help.

[kitamu re]

Exacto.....if the writers treat BP with respect and make the stories good it won't matter .

how would you know how the writer is treating BP when you don't even read the series:rolleyes: THe discrediting is coming from you hoping the book fails while not even reading it...can anyone help me say come out of the closet:eek:

[kitamu re]

Neither can Black Panther. Thankfully all those forced crossovers and event tie-ins help.

that's why it's sales have increaed 99.1% over 1 year and 12% over 2 years. basic math informs people like you who don't buy the book, but wish for its demise that BP is one of the hottest titles out right now and has gained critical acclaim from insiders and pundits alike. BP is selling quite well better then anyone expected (except reg;) ) and it will continue to burn up the sales charts because it is one of the best written books out right now.

oh and FF #544 just sold out better grab you're copy:cool:

[SUPERECWFAN1]

how would you know how the writer is treating BP when you don't even read the series:rolleyes: THe discrediting is coming from you hoping the book fails while not even reading it...can anyone help me say come out of the closet:eek:

Did you even read where that comment came from ? It regarded Panther in Fantastic Four and Avengers. Team series...not his solo title. And have I said I wanted the book to fail ? I don't think I have at all.

But hell your creating this seemingly as you said Panther out sold Superman but he hasn't.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Neither can Black Panther. Thankfully all those forced crossovers and event tie-ins help.

Pretty much. Lets see how the book does without them. I know Firestorm sadly didn't fare so well. It irks me to...I liked Firestorm before it became a mess after OYL.

[Beast]

that's why it's sales have increaed 99.1% over 1 year and 12% over 2 years. basic math informs people like you who don't buy the book, but wish for its demise that BP is one of the hottest titles out right now and has gained critical acclaim from insiders and pundits alike. BP is selling quite well better then anyone expected (except reg;) ) and it will continue to burn up the sales charts because it is one of the best written books out right now.
The only reason that the book showed a huge increase like that was due to the Wedding Tie-In and the Civil War Tie-ins. If you look at the life of the title, you'll see the trends. And I don't wish for it's demise. I don't wish any book to be cancelled. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to comment about the tricks being used to keep it alive. The only thing that is burning up the sales charts is the forced crossovers and desperate tie-ins.

2/05 BP#1 - 69,930
3/05 BP #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
4/05 BP #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)
5/05 BP #4 - 40,804 ( -9.2%)
6/05 BP #5 - 37,401 ( -8.1%)
7/05 BP #6 - 35,256 ( -5.7%)
8/05 BP #7 - 42,905 ( +21.7%) - House of M
9/05 BP #8 - 46,239 ( +7.8%) - X-Men Tie-In
10/05 BP #9 - 40,173 ( -13.1%) - X-Men Tie-In
11/05 BP #10 - 31,987 ( -20.4%)
12/05 BP #11 - 29,327 ( -8.3%)
01/06 BP #12 - 27,933 ( -4.7%)
02/06 BP #13 - 26,054 ( -6.7%)
03/06 BP #14 - 28,809 ( +10.6%) Bride of the Panther starts
04/06 BP #15 - 28,361 ( -1.6%)
05/06 BP #16 - 28,091 ( -1.0%)
06/06 BP #17 - 27,993 ( -0.3%)
07/06 BP #18 - 69,912 (+149.7%) - CW/Wedding Issue
08/06 BP #19 - 28,372 ( -59.4%) - World Tour (Doom)
09/06 BP #20 - 26,585 ( -6.3%) - World Tour (Inhumans)
10/06 BP #21 - 34,257 ( +28.9%) - World Tour/Civil War (Namor)
11/06 BP #22 - 47,556 ( +38.8%) - World Tour/Civil War (Iron Man)
12/06 BP #23 - 54,762 ( +15.2%) - Official Civil War
01/07 BP #24 - 57,709 ( +5.4%) - Civil War
02/07 BP #25 - 56,479 ( -5.8%) - Civil War

And now they join the Fantastic Four, another Tie-In to keep the numbers up.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

The only reason that the book showed a huge increase like that was due to the Wedding Tie-In and the Civil War Tie-ins. If you look at the life of the title, you'll see the trends. And I don't wish for it's demise. I don't wish any book to be cancelled. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to comment about the tricks being used to keep it alive. The only thing that is burning up the sales charts is the forced crossovers and desperate tie-ins.

2/05 BP#1 - 69,930
3/05 BP #2 - 47,533 ( -32.0%)
4/05 BP #3 - 44,925 ( -5.5%)
5/05 BP #4 - 40,804 ( -9.2%)
6/05 BP #5 - 37,401 ( -8.1%)
7/05 BP #6 - 35,256 ( -5.7%)
8/05 BP #7 - 42,905 ( +21.7%) - House of M
9/05 BP #8 - 46,239 ( +7.8%) - X-Men Tie-In
10/05 BP #9 - 40,173 ( -13.1%) - X-Men Tie-In
11/05 BP #10 - 31,987 ( -20.4%)
12/05 BP #11 - 29,327 ( -8.3%)
01/06 BP #12 - 27,933 ( -4.7%)
02/06 BP #13 - 26,054 ( -6.7%)
03/06 BP #14 - 28,809 ( +10.6%) Bride of the Panther starts
04/06 BP #15 - 28,361 ( -1.6%)
05/06 BP #16 - 28,091 ( -1.0%)
06/06 BP #17 - 27,993 ( -0.3%)
07/06 BP #18 - 69,912 (+149.7%) - CW/Wedding Issue
08/06 BP #19 - 28,372 ( -59.4%) - World Tour (Doom)
09/06 BP #20 - 26,585 ( -6.3%) - World Tour (Inhumans)
10/06 BP #21 - 34,257 ( +28.9%) - World Tour/Civil War (Namor)
11/06 BP #22 - 47,556 ( +38.8%) - World Tour/Civil War (Iron Man)
12/06 BP #23 - 54,762 ( +15.2%) - Official Civil War
01/07 BP #24 - 57,709 ( +5.4%) - Civil War
02/07 BP #25 - 56,479 ( -5.8%) - Civil War

And now they join the Fantastic Four, another Tie-In to keep the numbers up.

Me and someone else already posted about this 2 to 3 pages back. I even told this same poster I believe that he could hope for a Cable & Deadpool reaction as that series managed to gain 5,000 more readers from before Civil War started.

I know Marvel has stricter cancellation spots than DC does. As Firestorm only managed to stay alive for how many cross-overs it was involved with sadly. DC finally pulled the plug as sales went to 14,000 on it....whats the mark usually on a Marvel comic Beast ?

[Dagger]

Me and someone else already posted about this 2 to 3 pages back. I even told this same poster I believe that he could hope for a Cable & Deadpool reaction as that series managed to gain 5,000 more readers from before Civil War started.

I know Marvel has stricter cancellation spots than DC does. As Firestorm only managed to stay alive for how many cross-overs it was involved with sadly. DC finally pulled the plug as sales went to 14,000 on it....whats the mark usually on a Marvel comic Beast ?
Less than that. The Wisdom MAX series is about 14,000.

[Beast]

Depends on the title really. Below 25,000 is typically the cancellation point. But if a book does well in the trade market, that can keep it alive. After all, look at Cable & Deadpool, Exiles, and X-Men: First Class. Both are consistant around the low to mid 30K mark. But Exiles has been running for nearly 100 issues and X-Men: First Class turned ongoing. Of course, XMFC also got a 4-Issue collection selling in stores like Target.

[Beast]

Less than that. The Wisdom MAX series is about 14,000.
MAX titles are a special case. For one, the book sells better overseas.

MAX titles also quite well when it comes to TPB. And it's only a mini.

[kitamu re]

The only reason that the book showed a huge increase like that was due to the Wedding Tie-In and the Civil War Tie-ins. If you look at the life of the title, you'll see the trends. And I don't wish for it's demise. I don't wish any book to be cancelled. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to comment about the tricks being used to keep it alive. The only thing that is burning up the sales charts is the forced crossovers and desperate tie-ins.

you can call it "gimmicks" and "crossovers" all you want but the book is selling. Hulk is going to sell like crazy this summer due to his tie in event are you calling that a gimmick or just good storytelling. see the porblem is that you don't read the book therefore you sound ill-informed when you pronounce bp a "gimmick" book that doesn't sel well. the job of the writer and artist is to sell books and based on the last 12 months BP is selling very well.:rolleyes:

[Dagger]

you can call it "gimmicks" and "crossovers" all you want but the book is selling. Hulk is going to sell like crazy this summer due to his tie in event are you calling that a gimmick or just good storytelling. see the porblem is that you don't read the book therefore you sound ill-informed when you pronounce bp a "gimmick" book that doesn't sel well. the job of the writer and artist is to sell books and based on the last 12 months BP is selling very well.:rolleyes:
The only difference, and I'm not trying to seem condescending here, is that the Incredible Hulk has pretty much ran non-stop since 1962 or 63. BP hasn't. Comparing the two really doesn't make any sense.

[Ty19]

you can call it "gimmicks" and "crossovers" all you want but the book is selling.

True...the book is selling well. And since that's the case, you might as well tie back in Blade and a few other books into the FF storyline in or some other event. Maybe it'll start selling over 40,000 again like it did when it had the CW logo. Hell, tie-in ALL books that normally sell below 30,000....PERMANENTLY!!! That way Marvel will make more money than they've ever dreamed of.

The catch is after a few too many tie-ins, the value of the special event drops and people won't bother collecting the book because of the special event. Then those books (including BP) will be back to their regular below_30,000 numbers anyway. Oh well........



see the porblem is that you don't read the book therefore you sound ill-informed when you pronounce bp a "gimmick" book that doesn't sel well. the job of the writer and artist is to sell books and based on the last 12 months BP is selling very well.

I've read most of the issues...in the store mind you, then I plop them right back into the rack. It's such a quick read, no depth. (Although I keep holdin out for some hope that it gets better soon since BP is my fav character.)

And the job of the writer/artist team is to sell books, indeed. I'm just stating the facts that the reason these books sold well over the past 3-4 months had nothing to do with the content...ONLY THE CROSSOVER LOGO.

[kitamu re]

True...the book is selling well. And since that's the case, you might as well tie back in Blade

and once again you show your bias..blade started out selling less then BP by 30,000 issues, blades civl war tie in sold 42,000 on avg. BP sold 58,000 on avg, very poor comparison. how did the other civil war tie-in issues do, why only single out Black panther for a "sales boost" are you calling cap and iron man gimmick books. BP would not be selling nowhere near it's current numbers if the book wasn't interesting. the fact that you don't read the book proves how little you know about the title, and its sales:cool:

[kitamu re]

I've read most of the issues...in the store mind you, then I plop them right back into the rack. It's such a quick read, no depth. (Although I keep holdin out for some hope that it gets better soon since BP is my fav character.)

And the job of the writer/artist team is to sell books, indeed. I'm just stating the facts that the reason these books sold well over the past 3-4 months had nothing to do with the content...ONLY THE CROSSOVER LOGO.

so you admit you haven't bought BP in what 20 issues yet your on a BP thread talking about it's sales:rolleyes: I am sure it hurts you to think BP can survive without you, because I know I buy two issues every month and will start buying three just to make up for people like you and supercwfan1 not buying the issue.

BP isn't going anywhere money walks bullshit talks:D

[Ty19]

and once again you show your bias

I aint biased, I'm just stating real facts.


..blade started out selling less then BP by 30,000 issues,

Only because BP's numbers were inflated greatly by the CW logo BEFORE Blade joined the Civil war Party.


blades civl war tie in sold 42,000 on avg. BP sold 58,000 on avg, very poor comparison. how did the other civil war tie-in issues do, why only single out Black panther for a "sales boost"

A few pages back i did point out that BP beat BLade's CW issue. I also thought all along that I was implying that ALL crossovers usually get a sales boost. that why I included Blade into my argument.


are you calling cap and iron man gimmick books.

I never said anything about the other books and I never used the word "gimmick" although I am kinda agreeing with the sentiment as far as BP's sales boost goes..


BP would not be selling nowhere near it's current numbers if the book wasn't interesting. the fact that you don't read the book proves how little you know about the title, and its sales:cool:

I also thought I just said a few posts ago that I've read "most" of the books. I even read the last four. And like I said a few pages back, I thought it could've been much better, just like all of this entire run. But just for the record,

- I don't like the changes in BP's history. I ain't a Priest diehard, I just don't think the changes have done anything to make the book better. Therefore, the changes IMO, were clumsily implemented and totally unnecessary.

- I don't hate Hudlin, I just don't like some of his behavior towards "some" online posters he's responded too. Including his stint using other pseudonyms. (Probably like right now)

- And to date, I have seen a little improvement in the writing. Just not enough to my liking.

Hope you understand where i'm comin from.


BP isn't going anywhere money walks bullshit talks

Oh and as far as this last quote, under different circumstances, if I was totally outta line, much like you, that quote thrown towards me might be justified. But as far as BP goes, I do read the books every now and then...

I Just Don't Spend My Money On Bullsh@#.

[Ty19]

...I know I buy two issues every month and will start buying three just to make up for people like you and supercwfan1 not buying the issue.

And if you are good ol' Huddy, I wouldn't worry if I were you. So-called great minds indeed do think alike.

I heard recently that a certain President of another company thinks just like you. When his sales weren't going too tough for his flagship project, he copped an extra few (hundred-thousand) copies of his product too just to boost the sales figures.

I guess all you great presidents live by the same motto:

When the going gets tough....send your staff out to buy more copies!!!

[DattaBoy]

Now I am not going to read through 18 pages of posts but so don't mind if some of this stuff has already been covered.
But I think a book like Black Panther needs exposure more then anything. I mean he is basically a character that not alot of people have head of so it should be important to build upon his exsisting fan base.
It is also one of the reasons why Hudlin's run has been more succesful then Priest's run. Say what you want but this run so far has made the character the most popular he's ever been because of all the exposure he's getting from tie-ins and crossovers with other titles and cameos in other titles. Where as Priest's run basically had T'Challa off on his own little corner of the universe with hardly in reprecussions in the other parts of the rest MU I expect that by this time next year BP is probably going to have a more stable fanbase because what the title is doin right now.
I also think that as of right now the title is on its own. I mean the FF have never really been big sellers,it's not like you need to pickup both titles to see what's going on, and if more then anything the title is just using benefits of a shared universe; so in a sense it doesn't make the title from Iron Fist,Spider-Man,Ms.Marvel,Wolverine, and Iron Man. And as far as I can tell there won't be any real crossovers with any events for a while. So I expect the book to wrap up most of its continuing plot lines in the near future.

[Expletive Deleted]

Guys, do not make it personal. Let's keep the focus on the comics, here.

Thanks.

[Beast]

so you admit you haven't bought BP in what 20 issues yet your on a BP thread talking about it's sales:rolleyes: I am sure it hurts you to think BP can survive without you, because I know I buy two issues every month and will start buying three just to make up for people like you and supercwfan1 not buying the issue.

BP isn't going anywhere money walks bullshit talks:D
Better make it four. Because unless it crosses over with the X-Men, I'm not buying either.

[Beast]

And as far as I can tell there won't be any real crossovers with any events for a while. So I expect the book to wrap up most of its continuing plot lines in the near future.
Not quite true. The book is using a tie-in with the Fantastic Four and with the popular Marvel Zombes.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Better make it four. Because unless it crosses over with the X-Men, I'm not buying either.

It crossed over back before Decimation and I ignored it as well.

[bjtrdff]

Why can't we just have a super team filled with gay black women?

They can fight evil white 1800s style men with twirly moustaches who wnat to take away the vote.

Also, there should be elephants wearing pants.

[Beast]

It crossed over back before Decimation and I ignored it as well.
I picked it up. Mostly because I was reading X-Men at the time.

[Beast]

Why can't we just have a super team filled with gay black women?

They can fight evil white 1800s style men with twirly moustaches who wnat to take away the vote.

Also, there should be elephants wearing pants.
Hmm, just gay black women would be hard. How about bisexual women in general.

Storm, Callisto, Marvel Girl, Yukio, and Mystique. Toss in Karma, who's fully gay. That's a good start.

With the resurrected Mammomax to fill the Elephant in Pants role.

[DattaBoy]

Not quite true. The book is using a tie-in with the Fantastic Four and with the popular Marvel Zombes.

Tie-in with Fantastic Four? I am not sure mainly because you don't have to read both, I mean they're both during their own thing I could see things that happen being mentioned in either title. Johnny and Ben appering in BP is like the New Avengers appering in a Spider-Man, Wolverine or Iron Fist book or the Mighty Avengers appearing in Ms. Marvel or Iron Man book.
As for Marvel Zombies I could see it being tie-in if the title was still going on but it's more like visiting a concept or universe. Like Wolverine visiting 1602, besides people still aren't going to buy it if it's not good or at least interesting.

On an unrelated note why is it that BP defeating Mephisto is mentioned by no other titles other then BP. I mean it was pretty big.....

[Crimson]

Hmm, just gay black women would be hard. How about bisexual women in general.

Storm, Callisto, Marvel Girl, Yukio, and Mystique. Toss in Karma, who's fully gay. That's a good start.

With the resurrected Mammomax to fill the Elephant in Pants role.

Mammomax was resurrected!? How did I miss this?

[Beast]

Tie-in with Fantastic Four? I am not sure mainly because you don't have to read both, I mean they're both during their own thing I could see things that happen being mentioned in either title.
The solicits for Fantastic Four have already mentioned stuff happening in BP.

Johnny and Ben appering in BP is like the New Avengers appering in a Spider-Man, Wolverine or Iron Fist book or the Mighty Avengers appearing in Ms. Marvel or Iron Man book.
Yeah, that's pretty much the basis of a tie-in. The difference here is that they arn't just cameos, but actual cast members and themes of the book due to the tie-in with Fantastic Four.

As for Marvel Zombies I could see it being tie-in if the title was still going on but it's more like visiting a concept or universe.
It still is going on. Marvel Zombies/Army of Darkness and Marvel Zombies: Dead Days.

Like Wolverine visiting 1602, besides people still aren't going to buy it if it's not good or at least interesting.
They will if they're fans of 1602. Hence why BP is tieing in and crossing over so much.

On an unrelated note why is it that BP defeating Mephisto is mentioned by no other titles other then BP. I mean it was pretty big.....
Because it doesn't effect any other title but Black Panther, I would assume.

[Brandon McKinnis]

Why can't we just have a super team filled with gay black women?

They can fight evil white 1800s style men with twirly moustaches who wnat to take away the vote.

Also, there should be elephants wearing pants.

I think Grant Morrison is writing that.

[kitamu re]

Now I am not going to read through 18 pages of posts but so don't mind if some of this stuff has already been covered.
But I think a book like Black Panther needs exposure more then anything. I mean he is basically a character that not alot of people have head of so it should be important to build upon his exsisting fan base.
It is also one of the reasons why Hudlin's run has been more succesful then Priest's run. Say what you want but this run so far has made the character the most popular he's ever been because of all the exposure he's getting from tie-ins and crossovers with other titles and cameos in other titles. Where as Priest's run basically had T'Challa off on his own little corner of the universe with hardly in reprecussions in the other parts of the rest MU I expect that by this time next year BP is probably going to have a more stable fanbase because what the title is doin right now.
I also think that as of right now the title is on its own. I mean the FF have never really been big sellers,it's not like you need to pickup both titles to see what's going on, and if more then anything the title is just using benefits of a shared universe; so in a sense it doesn't make the title from Iron Fist,Spider-Man,Ms.Marvel,Wolverine, and Iron Man. And as far as I can tell there won't be any real crossovers with any events for a while. So I expect the book to wrap up most of its continuing plot lines in the near future.

excellent post..a character that hasn't had a steady publishing history needs more exposure, and Hudlin is smart enough to realize this.;)

[shaunyc56]

excellent post..a character that hasn't had a steady publishing history needs more exposure, and Hudlin is smart enough to realize this.;)



Good point. Now, I think that Hudlin needs to be a little more subtle w/ how much "representing" he does w/ the book, I enjoy it, and I like seeing BP who is an expert fighter and Super intellect get the type of treatment a Cap or Reed Richards gets. Unfortunatley here in a Comic book forum your going to have people who see any divergence from the norm or any better treatment of a minority character as some sort of evil thing.

Cold hard fact of the matter, I need to see someone who looks like me caught up in Superheroic situations, because just like in real life situations, the reactions are going to be different than the majority.

[The Cool Thatguy]

excellent post..a character that hasn't had a steady publishing history needs more exposure, and Hudlin is smart enough to realize this.;)

It ain't exactly rocket science to figure out that a character needs exposure to thrive. I hope you don't intend to surprise us with the fact that the sky is blue! ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It ain't exactly rocket science to figure out that a character needs exposure to thrive. I hope you don't intend to surprise us with the fact that the sky is blue! ;)

What the hell ? Next you'll tell me Black Panther is from Africa !





















:p

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Good point. Now, I think that Hudlin needs to be a little more subtle w/ how much "representing" he does w/ the book, I enjoy it, and I like seeing BP who is an expert fighter and Super intellect get the type of treatment a Cap or Reed Richards gets. Unfortunatley here in a Comic book forum your going to have people who see any divergence from the norm or any better treatment of a minority character as some sort of evil thing.

Cold hard fact of the matter, I need to see someone who looks like me caught up in Superheroic situations, because just like in real life situations, the reactions are going to be different than the majority.

Of course if you read a lot of what some naysayers have posted...its more than well "he's a black minority and we can't see that happening" as a reason they have anger with the series. I posted this in one of my 1st posts . So I'll repeat it here. Your welcome to twist it in any way you wish.

The main arguement I hear from the disgruntled is that Hudlin is writing a fan fiction version of Black Panther. That its so fan fic you can roll your eyes at the elements of it in ways. That Panther has to be always stronger or ahead as they argue. That he won't lose a battle or fight at all. That he's so ahead of everyone ...its almost every story-arc.

Well that arguement is ok some of the time hero wise. Its comics , the good guy should come out on top. But ...he also should be tested and lose some. The classic win some/lose some. See Captain America in Civil War....he lost. He lost his life next but he lost here. He was beaten up as well storyline wise too as we saw. Then you have Reed Richards who died in the mid 90's , who came back and he was emotionally fragile as we saw on his return. Sue Storm had became a leader and replaced him and she became really strong as a character too.

Now recently Reed and Sue's marriage had problems. He supported an issue she didn't like. So here is a character in comics who isn't getting some special treatment. Both characters were treated with flaws and weaknesses as we see.

Back to the arguement of fan fic. Theres always the fact in most the hero has to fall in love. And in 7 issues he married Storm. A prominant Marvel character as we saw.

Thats why many I have read on here have said about the Hudlin "Black Panther" over the last 2 years. I have no clue if Hudlin will actually improve to kill those naysayers but all I know is Fantastic Four #544 is on my pull list and I trust Dwayne McDuffie to handle Storm and Panther as characters.

[The Cool Thatguy]

What the hell ? Next you'll tell me Black Panther is from Africa !





















:p

Damn it man, mark your spoilers!

[DattaBoy]

The solicits for Fantastic Four have already mentioned stuff happening in BP..




Yeah, that's pretty much the basis of a tie-in. The difference here is that they arn't just cameos, but actual cast members and themes of the book due to the tie-in with Fantastic Four.
Which is just like any other solo character book who is part of a team. And the BP hasn't forgotten it's plotlines or themes because they are still being used if anything the themes of the two books are being shared.


It still is going on. Marvel Zombies/Army of Darkness and Marvel Zombies: Dead Days.
It's only a tie-in if BP or the related charcters are featured in the minis.



Because it doesn't effect any other title but Black Panther, I would assume.
I dont know you would expect something like that to be mentioned by writers are something; the next time Mephisto shows up.

[DattaBoy]

What the hell ? Next you'll tell me Black Panther is from Africa !





















:p

No, he's from Jamiaca you can't tell???

[SUPERECWFAN1]

To expand on the Fan-Fic arguement ....


Mark Waid used to say Wally West (the Flash) was him 20 pounds lighter and with more hair. Now where Waid's "Flash" really becomes a good read is he met Linda Park and it wasn't like the 2 were married within 2 story-arcs . There was a long raceline to that as Wally had to overcome a lot of issues stepping into a mantle. Because it was always like he had these issues that stopped the character from gaining acceptance on a whole level as a replacement to Barry Allen.

But he did. The stories were good and Waid pushed all the right darn buttons on Wally. At the end he would win but his wins were never easy as we saw. He suffered tragedy as well. But by the time Waid ended his run he had became the definative Flash writer. This was without the benefit of cross-over events raging thru the title. And for the longest time ( Waid will tell you) everyone kept saying Wally would never work as the Flash. But guess what...he did his job.

In his final issue he married the character to Linda. And what seems or appears fan-fic is that the way Waid wrote the title , you couldn't walk away and say that. Because the characters had became so good and Waid's stories was so good for the character almost everyone applauds the guy to this day.

[DattaBoy]

Of course if you read a lot of what some naysayers have posted...its more than well "he's a black minority and we can't see that happening" as a reason they have anger with the series. I posted this in one of my 1st posts . So I'll repeat it here. Your welcome to twist it in any way you wish.

The main arguement I hear from the disgruntled is that Hudlin is writing a fan fiction version of Black Panther. That its so fan fic you can roll your eyes at the elements of it in ways. That Panther has to be always stronger or ahead as they argue. That he won't lose a battle or fight at all. That he's so ahead of everyone ...its almost every story-arc.

Well that arguement is ok some of the time hero wise. Its comics , the good guy should come out on top. But ...he also should be tested and lose some. The classic win some/lose some. See Captain America in Civil War....he lost. He lost his life next but he lost here. He was beaten up as well storyline wise too as we saw. Then you have Reed Richards who died in the mid 90's , who came back and he was emotionally fragile as we saw on his return. Sue Storm had became a leader and replaced him and she became really strong as a character too.


Back to the arguement of fan fic. Theres always the fact in most the hero has to fall in love. And in 7 issues he married Storm. A prominant Marvel character as we saw.


This is the thing BP loses and he loses plenty, it's just that when he wins it overshadows his loses; and he is such a level headed character that when he looses it doesn't feel like he lost. Like the thing with Doom if it had continued Doom would have probably killed BP but that's not to say that Wakanda would not have desroyed Latervia or the thing with Iron Man if that fight had contiued chances are BP would have lost. His most recent loss came in Civil War as you know he sided with the anti-reg and they lost and as a result he has to deal with the reprecusions such as pressure from the US and possible coup in his homeland.

[DattaBoy]

Mark Waid used to say Wally West (the Flash) was him 20 pounds lighter and with more hair. Now where Waid's "Flash" really becomes a good read is he met Linda Park and it wasn't like the 2 were married within 2 story-arcs . There was a long raceline to that as Wally had to overcome a lot of issues stepping into a mantle. Because it was always like he had these issues that stopped the character from gaining acceptance on a whole level as a replacement to Barry Allen..

Your comparing an established character like the Flash who is more popular then BP, has more established history than BP, and has a whole lot more exposure then BP with being on teams like the JLA and TT. The point is a title like BP isn't really afforded the luxury of the amount of time that Flash was when it came to storytelling. I mean the chances of marrying BP and Storm together like he did were probably never going to happen again.



But he did. The stories were good and Waid pushed all the right darn buttons on Wally. At the end he would win but his wins were never easy as we saw. He suffered tragedy as well. But by the time Waid ended his run he had became the definative Flash writer. This was without the benefit of cross-over events raging thru the title. And for the longest time ( Waid will tell you) everyone kept saying Wally would never work as the Flash. But guess what...he did his job..
BPs wins aren't easy either I mean even though he wins he ends up losing to a degree no matter what, people would see that if they read the book.Once again Flash is more popular character with a larger fan base so naturally he's not going to need alot of crossovers; though the character if I am not mistaken wasn't he a member of both the Teen Titans and JLA at the same time? And people say BP has alot of crossovers but in 26 issues he's tied-in to just as about as many books and events as any other Marvel characters.



In his final issue he married the character to Linda. And what seems or appears fan-fic is that the way Waid wrote the title , you couldn't walk away and say that. Because the characters had became so good and Waid's stories was so good for the character almost everyone applauds the guy to this day.
At the end of the day Hudlin's version of BP and Wakanda is definatley going to be the version that will be remembered the most because you can't ignore like every other version. Because this version is actually forefront and center in the MU and looks to play a part in in WWH and the X-Event. Hopfully in the near future BP can headline his own event.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Your comparing an established character like the Flash who is more popular then BP, has more established history than BP, and has a whole lot more exposure then BP with being on teams like the JLA and TT. The point is a title like BP isn't really afforded the luxury of the amount of time that Flash was when it came to storytelling. I mean the chances of marrying BP and Storm together like he did were probably never going to happen again.

He was actually comparing the quality of story tell, not the characters themselves. ;)

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Your comparing an established character like the Flash who is more popular then BP, has more established history than BP, and has a whole lot more exposure then BP with being on teams like the JLA and TT. The point is a title like BP isn't really afforded the luxury of the amount of time that Flash was when it came to storytelling. I mean the chances of marrying BP and Storm together like he did were probably never going to happen again.

Which is partly true. But as many will tell you Wally wasn't really in a good spot then. The most fans would say was "he's not Barry". Sales weren't real spectaculor either then. Waid just sit down and chugged along. Flash wasn't a member of Teen Titans at this point and he was in Justice League Europe as not much of a serious character.

So his exposure wasn't rocking things. He has more of a history thats true as the Flash mantle stretches back to Garrick. So that was one thing going for the Flash . But as we see the title wasn't in a good spot when Waid took it over and started his stories. He just sit down and did good storylines to attract fans and show them how important Wally could be.



BPs wins aren't easy either I mean even though he wins he ends up losing to a degree no matter what, people would see that if they read the book.Once again Flash is more popular character with a larger fan base so naturally he's not going to need alot of crossovers; though the character if I am not mistaken wasn't he a member of both the Teen Titans and JLA at the same time? And people say BP has alot of crossovers but in 26 issues he's tied-in to just as about as many books and events as any other Marvel characters.

No Wally wasn't a member of the Justice League as your thinking. He was a member of the Europe team and he wasn't a member of the Titans at this point.


At the end of the day Hudlin's version of BP and Wakanda is definatley going to be the version that will be remembered the most because you can't ignore like every other version. Because this version is actually forefront and center in the MU and looks to play a part in in WWH and the X-Event. Hopfully in the near future BP can headline his own event.

Perhaps he can. Who knows ....9more to be added later)

[Expletive Deleted]

No Wally wasn't a member of the Justice League as your thinking. He was a member of the Europe team and he wasn't a member of the Titans at this point.As Waid's run went on, he was. From 1998 to 2000, give or take, he was in Morrison's JLA and Grayson's TITANS at the same time.

Remember "Walter" West? They sparked interest in the character by having him make special appearances in both of those other titles, on top of his solo adventures.

[PastePotPete]

What Hudlin is good at:
The business side of things. The guy runs BET.
He treats Black Panther like the character is an actor and he's the agent. He sets Black Panther up to be front and center in the MU and he always strives to make his character look good.
You MUSt hand it to the man, he sets his franchise up for success.

What Hudlin is NOT good at:
Writing.
BP reads like it is written by someone's showbiz agent. It's like one big long commercial for Black Panther instead of a STORy about Black Panther. The interactions between characters in Black Panther are simplistic and corny, at times cartoonish. This is not the Marvel realism we expect from a Marvel title.

[Ty19]

What Hudlin is good at:
The business side of things. The guy runs BET.
He treats Black Panther like the character is an actor and he's the agent. He sets Black Panther up to be front and center in the MU and he always strives to make his character look good.
You MUSt hand it to the man, he sets his franchise up for success.

What Hudlin is NOT good at:
Writing.
BP reads like it is written by someone's showbiz agent. It's like one big long commercial for Black Panther instead of a STORy about Black Panther. The interactions between characters in Black Panther are simplistic and corny, at times cartoonish. This is not the Marvel realism we expect from a Marvel title.

Yup, this all sums it up in a nutshell, although some Hudlin supportors refuse to say they understand our arguments or are just in plain denial.

Our arguments are:

It has nothing to do with the exposure, nor the crossovers, nor the marriage.

The writing is bad.

Repeat:
The writing is bad.

Repeat"
The...writing...is...just...awful!!!

Can anyone be any clearer than that?

[Daouda]

If you you think the writing is bad don't read the comic.

Most of the examples that people here provide I don't care about or are aspects of the writing I actually enjoy.

Fan-fiction indeed.:rolleyes:

I'm a fan and this fiction is for me.:)

Excelsior!
Daoud

[Slumber Hulk]

It just dawned on me the New FF are all anti-reg... I guess maybe Ben was on the fence. Think they'll aid and abet the New Avengers?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

As Waid's run went on, he was. From 1998 to 2000, give or take, he was in Morrison's JLA and Grayson's TITANS at the same time.

Remember "Walter" West? They sparked interest in the character by having him make special appearances in both of those other titles, on top of his solo adventures.

Really what sparked the most interest was "Terminal Velocity" and Waid teasing us with perhaps Wally dying. But it was a good tale and swerve . Spinning outta Zero Hour everyone wondered whethor Wally was gonna make it.

It was pretty much the best exposure the character ever got and Waid thru great story telling gave fans a reason to care about Wally West as the Flash. The late 90's sadly ...well as much as I love Waid's run on Flash the Walter West arc was decent. Yeah he got exposure those later years as you posted , but thr early years was rough and Waid's credited for making the book last by doing good work.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

If you you think the writing is bad don't read the comic.

Most of the examples that people here provide I don't care about or are aspects of the writing I actually enjoy.

Fan-fiction indeed.:rolleyes:

I'm a fan and this fiction is for me.:)

Excelsior!
Daoud

Wow I'm shocked ....someone here who don't like a writer who has the following credits.

Fantastic Four
JLA
Legion of Superheroes
Flash
Superman
Captain America
Ruse
Brave & the Bold
X-Men
Kingdom Come
The Kingdom

And I'm sure I'm forgetting some for Waid. Its hard to believe that his style is something you'd hate since he's a critcally acclaimed writer.

[DattaBoy]

Yup, this all sums it up in a nutshell, although some Hudlin supportors refuse to say they understand our arguments or are just in plain denial.

Our arguments are:

It has nothing to do with the exposure, nor the crossovers, nor the marriage.

The writing is bad.

Repeat:
The writing is bad.

Repeat"
The...writing...is...just...awful!!!

Can anyone be any clearer than that?

Well, it's not really an argument it's an opinion and I dont think anyone can change their opinion but the person them.

[Expletive Deleted]

Its hard to believe that his style is something you'd hate since he's a critcally acclaimed writer.Lots of people dislike critically acclaimed writers. And lots of people like critically loathed writers. For example, love of Mark Waid's work is no more universal than, say, hatred of Chuck Austen's.

[Ty19]

Well, it's not really an argument it's an opinion and I dont think anyone can change their opinion but the person them.

You're right, Dattaboy. I did only give my opinion in that sentence.

I did not list the tons of details about the retcon, characterization issues, plot holes, continuity issues relating the current version of BP to the rest of the Marvel U. as well as continuity issues inside the new history itself. Then after all of this, Issue #18 forces the new BP back into old continuity with the new changes "?maybe intact?" It's just bad writing and editorial work.

The details forge my opinion. Anyone enjoying it, good for them. Really, I mean that. But aside from crossover stories, current readers are leaving the book steadily. This just gives me hope that a new writer will scribe a better version (in my opinion) of BP that we can all enjoy.

And I especially hate the argument by some Hudlin supporters that BP is just too "Black" for whites and maybe some blacks to be comfortable with. BP can still be crossovered out and Afrocentric-ed to the max if need be. I'm black, I'll feel a special connection to the book if my culture pops in and frames the stories from time to time. I don't think many will have a problem with that...but it has to be written and presented much, much better than it currently is. The current version is very Afro-centric...and I feel no connection to the book at all (other than a few nicely drawn covers from time-to-time).

I just miss having fun with my favorite character. This new version just isn't any fun for me.

That's also why I'm looking forward to McDuffie's stint with BP and Storm in the FF. Dude can have BP very culture driven and still not shove it down anyone's throat just to prove a point (as he already has displayed in the new FF issue). Blatantly forcing your culture on me is not having BP display confidence in himself and his culture. That only shows insecurity. As much insecurity as Marvel had displayed for years not allowing a Black character to be in the forefront as the current BP run is.

Now it's just time for the writing to get better and maybe we'll all be pleased.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Lots of people dislike critically acclaimed writers. And lots of people like critically loathed writers. For example, love of Mark Waid's work is no more universal than, say, hatred of Chuck Austen's.

Guess your right. I just found it odd....beyond his LSH I don't see rarely any Waid hate online. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[XPac]

Its hard to believe that his style is something you'd hate since he's a critcally acclaimed writer.

Just to put in it perspective... Bendis was won like 5 Eisners. Bendis has an award case that even someone like Waid might be envious of, and he's still one of the most bashed comic book writers on the net. Critical acclain doesn't always offer you much protection from the net.

[kitamu re]

If you you think the writing is bad don't read the comic.

Most of the examples that people here provide I don't care about or are aspects of the writing I actually enjoy.

Fan-fiction indeed.

I'm a fan and this fiction is for me.

Excelsior!
Daoud

I agree more BP fan-:fic:D

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Just to put in it perspective... Bendis was won like 5 Eisners. Bendis has an award case that even someone like Waid might be envious of, and he's still one of the most bashed comic book writers on the net. Critical acclain doesn't always offer you much protection from the net.

The most hate Bendis gets is for his team books . New Avengers is where for 20 issues barely anything advanced the plot . House of M was a disastor too as Wolverine ran around for 7 issues and did little. Bendis is cleary a better single character writer and works best there.

If he was on Black Panther you'd odds are see a very solid character at the end. His solo books listed below are very character driven reads. Like the character of Matt Murdock where he even exposed his secret identity and for issues showcased what happens when it happens.

Waid and Bendis are like the All-Pros. And yeah even All-Pros take the heat I suppose on things at times. But they usually deliver DA GOODS 9 times outta 10.

Powers
Pulse
Alias
Ultimate Spiderman
Daredevil

If BP emerges post Crossover Events and needs a jolt sales wise Bendis is there. He's like Joe Quesada's trump card. The Ace Reliever who will step in for Marvel.

[kitamu re]

Marvel advises retailers to check their orders on Black Panther #27 and upcoming issues, as Black Panther #26 has sold out at Diamond. Currently there are no plans to go back to press on Black Panther #26, which featured an early tale of the new Fantastic Four. Get onboard for what is sure to be a classic Marvel crossover!

well for all the naysayers who thought BP would bomb after civil war..sorry put a quarter in the machine and try again.

[Dooby Doo!]

I like Hudlin's BP, yeah he started badly, but when he first got on the book it was supposed to be a mini-series not a ongoing.

I think Hudlin can be a little heavy handed at times, but he's doing a good job in my opinion(Although I'd take Chris Priest back in a minute) his BP speaks to me in a way most other writer version couldn't.

[Beast]

well for all the naysayers who thought BP would bomb after civil war..sorry put a quarter in the machine and try again.
You do realize that Marvel prints to order, with just a small over-print to cover damages. Right?

So it's not like a book selling out means a whole lot in a case like this.

[kitamu re]

You do realize that Marvel prints to order, with just a small over-print to cover damages. Right?

So it's not like a book selling out means a whole lot in a case like this.


nice try..but do you think every marvel title sells out:rolleyes: you can call it however you want but BP has been a top 50 book for the past 6 months consistenly outselling established marvel books like hulk and daredevil. :eek: Stop hating and give Reggie props for makinf BP relevant in the 616;)

[Magneto_X]

Stop hating and give Reggie props for makinf BP relevant in the 616;)

Black Panther wasn't relevant when Priest wrote him?!? :confused:

[XPac]

Black Panther wasn't relevant when Priest wrote him?!? :confused:

It's a matter of degree I suppose. I think Panterh under Priest was more relevant than he was prior to Priest writing him, but at the same time I think Hudlin's Pather is FAR more relavent now than under Priest.

He's married to Storm and leader of the Fantastic Four. Under Hudlin Panthers role in the MU has definately expanded.

[Lanowar]

nice try..but do you think every marvel title sells out:rolleyes: you can call it however you want but BP has been a top 50 book for the past 6 months consistenly outselling established marvel books like hulk and daredevil. :eek: Stop hating and give Reggie props for makinf BP relevant in the 616;)

Sells out just means that the comic book shops have brought all the copies from Diamond. Thunderbolts sold out, Iron Fist Sold out, Ms Marvel sold out, Spider-man sold out, Iron Man sold out (to the goverment hehe).

I also like how you shrug off Beast's comments as "Nice try" as if we all here at CBR sit there stroking our pet cats thinking.

"How can we insult Hudlin now"

[Magneto_X]

X-Pac:

While I'll concede that Panther's personal life has made him more relevant (marrying Storm, for example & leading the FF*) he's far from the prep god he was under Priest's run.

Priest's Panther was someone who would give Morrison's Batgod a run for their money. Even when caught and stuck in death traps Panther casually went through the motions like it's Tuesday. I guess it was similar to pulp heroes like The Shadow did it. Plus while he was a king, fabulously wealthy and Reed Richards' level intelligent he was *still* a nice guy who I could relate to (and I'm a white guy in my mid-20's!).

Nowdays Hudlin's Panther is an arrogant dick who gets caught with his pants down by random low level villains (Priest's Panther was usually captured by enemies like the mentally unhinged guy who conquered Wakanda, White Wolf etc) instead of casually dealing with potentials with wars with Atlantis, the Inhumans and Latervia (with Doom involved!) *simultaneously*.

* this is the only thing I like about the current Panther. He should have joined the FF, even temporarily, years ago

[Yaw]

"How can we insult Hudlin now"

When you read Beast's posts concerning Hudlin that doesn't seem far from the truth. There is nothing wrong with criticizing someones work but when you admittedly don't read the work itself yet still find it fitting to criticize points of said work then one motive becomes less about the work and more about the author.

Hudlin is to Beast what catnip is to umm, well Beast...;)

[Alan2099]

I also like how you shrug off Beast's comments as "Nice try" as if we all here at CBR sit there stroking our pet cats thinking.

"How can we insult Hudlin now"
Wait. You don't do that?

Oh come on, I can't be the only one that does that stuff.

[Ty19]

well for all the naysayers who thought BP would bomb after civil war..sorry put a quarter in the machine and try again.

They sold out, but sales/total_orders were down, according to Diamond.

Issue #25 - 56,479 Link (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10270.html)
Issue #26 - 48,717 Link (http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10404.html)

And since Marvel isn't going back to press with #26, it would seem that there wasn't an overwhelming demand for the book past the initial order anyway (even with Kitamu copping an additional 3 or 4 or 10 copies.) :rolleyes: I bet by #27 will lose another 5,000 to 10,000 readers as well.

I read #26...still not impressed, still put it back in the rack. Glad to see Fantastic Four and McDuffie doing nicely though. Hope he sticks around with BP for a lot longer.

Oh, another thing. I saw the previews for #27.


SPOILERS..........
I know that's not the Golden Frog that BP is holdin, is it?? I guess Hudlin thinks he can write a better tale using the Golden frogs than Priest did. This is really interesting to me, especially after Hudlin (AKA "Muddy_Boots") DISSED Priest's use of the Frogs in the previous BP run. Link (http://www.comicboards.com/blackpanther/view.php?rpl=060906045449)

[Magneto_X]

When you read Beast's posts concerning Hudlin that doesn't seem far from the truth. There is nothing wrong with criticizing someones work but when you admittedly don't read the work itself yet still find it fitting to criticize points of said work then one motive becomes less about the work and more about the author.

Hudlin is to Beast what catnip is to umm, well Beast...;)

You do know it is not impossible to find pages online of Hudlin's BP to read it, right?

Also, there are numerous reviews of it on hundreds of comic websites, as well.

[kitamu re]

They sold out, but sales/total_orders were down, according to Diamond.

Issue #25 - 56,479 Link
Issue #26 - 48,717 Link

And since Marvel isn't going back to press with #26, it would seem that there wasn't an overwhelming demand for the book past the initial order anyway (even with Kitamu copping an additional 3 or 4 or 10 copies.) I bet by #27 will lose another 5,000 to 10,000 readers as well.

didn't you say the book would be back to pre-wedding numbers after civil war:p YOu have been wrong about the title so much I just think you are bitter about the books success. oh and how well do you think those zombie issues will do:rolleyes:

[Ty19]

didn't you say the book would be back to pre-wedding numbers after civil war. YOu have been wrong about the title so much I just think you are bitter about the books success. oh and how well do you think those zombie issues will do.

Actually, I said that sooner or later, BP's numbers might be back to Issue #21 numbers (26,077), which were LOWER than pre-wedding numbers (28,000+). I also said that this should happen once BP is not part of another "crossover" event and standing on it's "OWN" again. BP #26 is STILL in the middle of a crossover event with the Fantastic Four.

If these Zombie issues don't have any special crossover stories or guest appearances, I'm very curious to see what the numbers will be for these stories.

[Alan2099]

And I especially hate the argument by some Hudlin supporters that BP is just too "Black" for whites and maybe some blacks to be comfortable with.
If you mean, too average black guy on the streets, and not enough noble African warrior prince, then yeah, that's a big part of my problem.

Every character has an indetity of their own, and just because it doesn't fit into a cliche doesn't mean it's not a good one. Mr. T isn't your average Black guy and both white and black people love him. Detective Axel Foley wasn't your average black guy, Spawn wasn't, the Westley Sniped Blade wasn't, Roadblock wasn't. Each character was black, but they had their own personality that worked for them. Why try to make it into something else?

[darkhawk76]

can I just ask what is the point of all these Hudlin debates?

all that happens is the same tired arguments get recycled by both sides again & again.

some people like Hudlin's BP, others hate it - we all get that, maybe we can move on a little

:)

[Magneto_X]

If these Zombie issues don't have any special crossover stories or guest appearances, I'm very curious to see what the numbers will be for these stories.

Technically it's a crossover in itself. It is a two story arc that occurs in both FF and BP, after all. Plus it's got the Marvel Zombies' backdrop to boost it.

[Van Custo]

Not so much offensive racialy as it is idiotic, and therefore offensive to me as a human being with a brain.

[Ty19]

If you mean, too average black guy on the streets, and not enough noble African warrior prince, then yeah, that's a big part of my problem.

Naw, the Hudlin supporters meant just any Black character who is not in the background, and has very "visible" African or African-American traits displayed very prominently through their written language, personality and penciled mannerisms and surroundings. To a small extent, they were right because some detractors were WAYYYY over the top with their dislikes and opinions. But some rabid Hudlin supporters (including Hudlin himself in undercover mode) started using the "race" defense against most white BP fans, questioning any white fan who had very logical dislikes about the book. But by no means was this "race" argument the overwhelming element of the distaste voiced by the majority of older BP fans who weren't feeling the new direction of Hudlin's Panther. Most of us, all backgrounds, simply just didn't/don't like the writing....period. And those rabid Hudlin supporters were wrong for using this argument in that way.

[Ty19]

Technically it's a crossover in itself. It is a two story arc that occurs in both FF and BP, after all. Plus it's got the Marvel Zombies' backdrop to boost it.

Oh well, if BP is gonna live in and out of other books and storylines for the foreseeable future, then sales just may stay above the 35,000-40,000 issue mark for a while.

As many problems as I may have with Hudlin's writing, I will never call him dumb. This dude knows how to market the hell out of his product.

Maybe Queseda can move him to the marketing department as VP of Marketing and Promotions and let someone else write the book. ;) That way, I'll like BP again, we'll get a few more Black books to enjoy, and Marvel might end up becoming a literal comics Superpower.

[kitamu re]

That way, I'll like BP again, we'll get a few more Black books to enjoy, and Marvel might end up becoming a literal comics Superpower.

we don't need more "black books" we need more books with african or african-american leads:cool:

[Ty19]

we don't need more "black books" we need more books with african or african-american leads:cool:

OK.:) Let history show that this may be the one and only time I'll let you correct me on something. :rolleyes:

[DoctorDoom]

If you mean, too average black guy on the streets, and not enough noble African warrior prince, then yeah, that's a big part of my problem.

Every character has an indetity of their own, and just because it doesn't fit into a cliche doesn't mean it's not a good one. Mr. T isn't your average Black guy and both white and black people love him. Detective Axel Foley wasn't your average black guy, Spawn wasn't, the Westley Sniped Blade wasn't, Roadblock wasn't. Each character was black, but they had their own personality that worked for them. Why try to make it into something else?
Good and well stated point (and original!)

[Post-It]

Naw, the Hudlin supporters meant just any Black character who is not in the background, and has very "visible" African or African-American traits displayed very prominently through their written language, personality and penciled mannerisms and surroundings. To a small extent, they were right because some detractors were WAYYYY over the top with their dislikes and opinions. But some rabid Hudlin supporters (including Hudlin himself in undercover mode) started using the "race" defense against most white BP fans, questioning any white fan who had very logical dislikes about the book. But by no means was this "race" argument the overwhelming element of the distaste voiced by the majority of older BP fans who weren't feeling the new direction of Hudlin's Panther. Most of us, all backgrounds, simply just didn't/don't like the writing....period. And those rabid Hudlin supporters were wrong for using this argument in that way.


I agree. Calling someone a racist for not liking the book is just plain dumb. At the same time many readers have to accept that race will be discussed in BP. Having a book with a 2 leading black characters and not discussing race is like saying that comics with teenage lead characters should not deal with teen angst. It is bound to happen, all we can hope for is that it is done properly.

[ivesaidway2much]

I agree. Calling someone a racist for not liking the book is just plain dumb. At the same time many readers have to accept that race will be discussed in BP. Having a book with a 2 leading black characters and not discussing race is like saying that comics with teenage lead characters should not deal with teen angst. It is bound to happen, all we can hope for is that it is done properly.Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?

[Ty19]

Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?

Not by their race but more by their cultural upbringing.

The same way Rogue uses her "Southern drawl" in her speech, and the same way Nightcrawler uses his European dialect, the same should be expected from Black characters as well. But we still have to keep in mind that not all Black people speak, look or act the same. Each Black character should have their own identity just like all other characters do, and not be from the same cookie_cutter mold as they were in the 70's and 80's. Once this is understood, then let Black characters "KiCk" & "PuNcH" to the writer's heart's content.:D

The biggest issue is the reaction some fans have when some Black characters are written a certain way. Unless a character is written in an over-the-top manner, the real problem is always with the fan's reactions to those character's traits that they may/may_not be familiar with or just simply may/may_not like or relate to. That where the problem lies, IMO.

In most cases, I would like to simply tell the latter group of fans to just get over it or don't buy the book if you don't relate to it. But some fans do end up getting out of line with online comments and such.

[Post-It]

Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?


I never said define them by their race, that's a horrible idea which only leads to bad characters and writing. However race and race relations should be discussed in comics. Comics have always dealt with touchy and controversial topics, so why should it ignore race?

[Alan2099]

Race has it's place, as does eerything, but when your main character comes from (and should be spending time in) a nation where he's the same race as the majority of his population and the culture of that population has for the most part never really exihbited rascism, then maybe it shouldn't be such a huge focus.

Honestly, it's always been more prominent in Storm's case than Black Panther's and even then it was because she was a mutant and not because she was black.

[Lanowar]

I don't like Hudlin the guy has his moments I'm not going to deny him that but just sometimes the race card is played too often it hinders me from wanting to read it. He really played up the "all the black people are anti reg and we're all united aganist "the man" stark." Then again Bendis tried this with Falcon in NA 21 and it sounded horrid every 5 seconds he kept saying "sellout" like he had liberal tourettes or somthing. (take into account that we english see as liberal is different to the american viewpoint on it before you jump on me for that)

It annoyed me he did'nt use Bishop since he was not only one of the more vocal black pro-reggers but one of the only mutants to pick a side. A Bishop/Black Panther confrontation would have been intresting and could have allowed Hudlin to answer some of his critics with a more three dimensional look at race. Not just a single "Sellout" comment by one of the characters hoping that will deal with it. But he did'nt and really by not doing that it gave more fire for those who don't like him.

[Citizen V]

Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?

Your username fits you well.Keep in mind that white characters can do anything,and have done everything.Minority characters seem like they have to prove themselfs,as if that will ever be noticed.But its nice to see something different,from time to time..but its never long lasting.

[kitamu re]

Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?

the first mistake you made was calling all characters of african descent "black" I mean that is the problem..most causian people don't see "people of african desecent they see them as a color "black" a color tells you alot about a person. I mean it is so much easier to stereotype and pigeonhole when you call people a color.

[Dooby Doo!]

Got a question for you all, what would you do if you wrote BP for Marvel? Really what could you do that Hudlin isn't?

[Alan2099]

"People of african desecent"? have we reached the point where we have to be THIS politically correct with what we call each other?

Well, in that case fine, I want to be referred to as a "person of mixed English, Irish, Scottish, Cherokee, German, and French descent".

People don't see people "of African desecent" because it's cumbersom and over complicated. Are they from Africa? maybe. maybe not. maybe they've never been there and couldn't care less aboput the place. Maybe they hated their ancestors for whatever reason and don't want to talk about where they're from.

ANd what makes you think "people of African desecent" would be any less sterotyped than "black" people?

[Dagger]

Then why does the author of the new New Warriors book calling the black characters :eek: black?:confused: And get this, he's :eek: black!!! I'm white, and so what?

[darkhawk76]

Why do black characters have to be defined by their race? Just because their skin is a certain color I don't see why it has to figure significantly into their character. You rarely see white characters talking about race in their books. Why can't black guys just punch and kick stuff like other heroes?

no character should be defined exclusively by their race, but equally it shouldn't be ignored. Otherwise you have a bland identikit character who could be any superhero (but happens to have a different colouring on the comicbook page)

[kitamu re]

People don't see people "of African desecent" because it's cumbersom and over complicated

there is nothing cumbersome about asking someone about their heritage..do you assume all japnese are chinese because they have yellow skin:rolleyes: what about south koreans and japanese..there is nothing complicated about respecting peoples culture.. I can tell you don't have many friends of african descent or you wouldn't be so comfortable pitching stereotypes or making vague statements about a people's culture

[Alan2099]

there is nothing cumbersome about asking someone about their heritage..do you assume all japnese are chinese because they have yellow skin:rolleyes: what about south koreans and japanese..there is nothing complicated about respecting peoples culture.. I can tell you don't have many friends of african descent or you wouldn't be so comfortable pitching stereotypes or making vague statements about a people's culture

Excuse me if I don't feel the need to ask evry single person what their culture is before addressing them. Besides, a skin color is anot a person's culture, and even though it has nothing to do with anything here, about half of my freinds are black. Yes BLACK. That what they referr to themselves as. Their culture is not African and for the most part, they don't know anymore about the place than I do.

Which is getting away from the point of the topic anyay. If you wanted to define a person by their culture, then yeah, Black Panther is African. Luke Cage on the other hand would just be black and Storm is more mutant than either.

Not that defining a character by their culture works anyway.

[Deus ex Chris]

the first mistake you made was calling all characters of african descent "black" I mean that is the problem..most causian people don't see "people of african desecent they see them as a color "black" a color tells you alot about a person. I mean it is so much easier to stereotype and pigeonhole when you call people a color.

Oh, give me a break. You just used the term caucasian (and you didn't even spell it correctly), which is simply another way of saying white. What's the difference? Besides, of African descent tells as much about a person as black does, and that's not much at all.

[Lanowar]

Most people's arguements aganist Hudlin is that he brings up the race card WAY to often and kitamu re if your trying to argue that he does'nt then your not doing a very good job of it.

[Magneto_X]

Got a question for you all, what would you do if you wrote BP for Marvel? Really what could you do that Hudlin isn't?

I'd make him closer to how he was under Priest.

Sure I'd deal with T'Challa's culture (like when he's in Wakanda) and his race, but sparingly. The race will only show up if he's fighting some racist villain like Red Skull, kinda like Johns' did in his Avengers' run.

I'd definitely have tonnes of intruige because that's where T'Challa shines the most in Marvel. It makes him unique in that respect. He isn't just some costume vigilante (of course he'll do it every once and a while when he's in America [ala Priest]) who beats people up 24/7.

I'd also have him interacting more with street level heroes occasionally (i.e. Luke Cage, Iron Fist, White Tiger [Angela del Toro], Daredevil, Moon Knight, Night Thrasher, Captain America, Josiah X, Elektra, Black Widow, Deadpool, U.S. Agent etc).

Hydra and A.I.M would also be a major thorn in his side.

[Lanowar]

Got a question for you all, what would you do if you wrote BP for Marvel? Really what could you do that Hudlin isn't?


Hmm what do to with Black Panther? I always found Panther being in America when his country keeps getting invaded or attacked to be a bad way of doing business. I'll have Panther actually in Africa for the first arc or too as he struggles with trying to bring Wakanda into the world community. He begins plans to build a university in Wakanda to allow people from the outside world to study in Wakanda. A move that puts him in a head on crash with his elders outdated believes.

Then he'll attempt to bring Africa closer together perhaps in Civil War Damage Report there's a mention that Panther held a meeting of nations to think of an African response to the Reg act. Well why wasn’t it done in Black Panther? I'll have Panther trying to gather the African nations together for a conference while stopping HYDRA's plans to cause an African War by assassinating one of the representatives.

Then Klaw will return having really been in the ether his arch nemesis comes back in a big way, as Wakanda gets ready to officially welcome the first students to Wakanda U Klaw slips in and murders T'challa's first minister sparking a witch-hunt that might threaten to tear Wakanda apart as Klaw seeks to gain the power of the herb that gave T'challa his powers. Resulting in a full on Klaw Vs Panther fight.

With Wakanda now at peace it faces its biggest threat yet as another meteorite full of Vibranium crashes on the Wakanda border sparking off a war with Wakanda's neighbours over ownership. HYDRA and AIM also make a move for the rock however inside the meteor the origins of Vibranium lurk and a secret that might force T'challa into a war he doesn’t want to fight...

The difference would be it is more about T'challa the king with some fighting moments rather then T'challa the bad-ass who needs to prove himself when he fights everyone in the MU and tying into every event going.

[kitamu re]

Oh, give me a break. You just used the term caucasian (and you didn't even spell it correctly), which is simply another way of saying white. What's the difference? Besides, of African descent tells as much about a person as black does, and that's not much at all.


and asian is another way of saying yellow:rolleyes: you crack me up..you scream about hudlin being racist yet you don't know anything about african culture or afrcian american culture. hudlin isn't playing the race card because you don't know anything or better yet care to know anything about african-americans. the only racist i see is you not hudlin.

[kitamu re]

Hmm what do to with Black Panther? I always found Panther being in America when his country keeps getting invaded or attacked to be a bad way of doing business. I'll have Panther actually in Africa for the first arc or too as he struggles with trying to bring Wakanda into the world community. He begins plans to build a university in Wakanda to allow people from the outside world to study in Wakanda. A move that puts him in a head on crash with his elders outdated believes.

Then he'll attempt to bring Africa closer together perhaps in Civil War Damage Report there's a mention that Panther held a meeting of nations to think of an African response to the Reg act. Well why wasn’t it done in Black Panther? I'll have Panther trying to gather the African nations together for a conference while stopping HYDRA's plans to cause an African War by assassinating one of the representatives.

Then Klaw will return having really been in the ether his arch nemesis comes back in a big way, as Wakanda gets ready to officially welcome the first students to Wakanda U Klaw slips in and murders T'challa's first minister sparking a witch-hunt that might threaten to tear Wakanda apart as Klaw seeks to gain the power of the herb that gave T'challa his powers. Resulting in a full on Klaw Vs Panther fight.

With Wakanda now at peace it faces its biggest threat yet as another meteorite full of Vibranium crashes on the Wakanda border sparking off a war with Wakanda's neighbours over ownership. HYDRA and AIM also make a move for the rock however inside the meteor the origins of Vibranium lurk and a secret that might force T'challa into a war he doesn’t want to fight...

The difference would be it is more about T'challa the king with some fighting moments rather then T'challa the bad-ass who needs to prove himself when he fights everyone in the MU and tying into every event going.

i think you better leave the writing to hudlin..he "gets" the character if you know what i mean.

[Deus ex Chris]

and asian is another way of saying yellow:rolleyes: you crack me up..you scream about hudlin being racist yet you don't know anything about african culture or afrcian american culture.
Dude, I haven't screamed about anyone being racist. Also, you don't know anything about me, so don't presume to, alright?


hudlin isn't playing the race card because you don't know anything or better yet care to know anything about african-americans. the only racist i see is you not hudlin.
Riiiiiight. How's that troll bit working out for you, anyway? Not too well, I'd say. It doesn't really add anything to the discussion.

[Dagger]

and asian is another way of saying yellow:rolleyes: you crack me up..you scream about hudlin being racist yet you don't know anything about african culture or afrcian american culture. hudlin isn't playing the race card because you don't know anything or better yet care to know anything about african-americans. the only racist i see is you not hudlin.
Dude, he never called Hudlin a racist, so back off! What does this even have to do with Hudlin writing the Black Panther anymore? Let it go, and move on. Not everyone likes Hudlin's portrayal of Black Panther, so quit taking the criticisms of the author personal. It happens all the time.

[Expletive Deleted]

Remember the whole "talk about comics, not each other" thing?

Yeah . . .