So ... did She Hulk sleep with Juggernaut or not?

[DoctorDoom]

I changed it for you. :evilsmile
Thanks. It should have been that.

And for the record I care enough to post witty (hah!) crap every now and then...

Does this mean I care about the issue at hand?

And yes I will buy this.... Just like every ish of SHe-Hulk Slott's done.

BTW Dan, thanks for autographing the Wendigo issue at NY comiccon!

[Cain Marko]

Marko's supposedly of at least average intelligence. And in the issue in question, was making a fairly diligent effort to reform. If Jen's supposed to have a problem with that, I guess she needs to hold a grudge against Hawkeye and Black Widow too, right? They were villains once, too, after all.

Also worth noting that Marko was often a whole lotta talk and not as much action when it comes to killing folks. Of course he's probably been retconned into a child-killer like the Hulk now, but one of the points they brought up when he was reforming was that while he was certainly violent and destructive, he was rarely murderous, much less successfully so.


It helped that the person writing it was totally incompetent. Like much of what Austen wrote, that was nonsense he just made up. The Juggernaut has always been extremely murderous. This is a man who once set out to kill everyone in an entire city. Personally. But to fit Cain as a hero Austen needed to retroactively clean up his past. So he whitewashed the little "inconveniences" to the reform plot like Cain's history of mass murder.

She-Hulk sleeping with him was I guess Austen's way of showing that all's forgiven and that even the superhero community accepts Cain. Which made for a funny story just because it was so bad it read like a comedy, but it was by no means a good depiction of any character involved. And since misportrayals were par for the course at the time it shouldn't have come as such a big shock to people. You could see it coming a mile away really.

[Orion101]

It helped that the person writing it was totally incompetent. Like much of what Austen wrote, that was nonsense he just made up. The Juggernaut has always been extremely murderous. This is a man who once set out to kill everyone in an entire city. Personally. But to fit Cain as a hero Austen needed to retroactively clean up his past. So he whitewashed the little "inconveniences" to the reform plot like Cain's history of mass murder. It's funny how Austen changed Cain's history in a desperate attempt to make him a hero and seemed to think he would make an excellant good guy and should be forgiven considering he did everything in his power to smear Hank Pym. Even going as far as trying to imply he was a habitual abuser and was apperently trying to turn him inot a villain. And has even said in interviews that hank would work better as a bad guy. I guess it shows you were his ethical standards are about what can or can't be forgiven are at.

[Black Atom]

I doubt that Dan will retcon it. He seems to have a great respect for continuity--even the crappy kind. He's the first writer I've seen make a canon reference to The Clone Saga since the bloody thing happened. Anyone that follows the book knows that Slott has established, since day one, that Jen Walters has rather low self-esteem and has been using her She-Hulk persona as a somewhat unhealthy escape from her personal inhibitions. This would explain why she might be ashamed about boning the Juggernaut.

In regards to fans "obsessing" over it--yeah, fans care. Believe it or not, some people care A LOT about these characters. That's why they have survived over decades, spawned cartoons and TV shows and put asses in theater seats. That's nothing to be ashamed of, that's the GD point. On the other hand, coming to a message board about comicbook characters to mock people who care about comicbook characters seems like a much less fruitful and rewarding way to pass the time than discussing comicbook characters you actually have invested interest in.

[Cain Marko]

Dan spoke about She-Hulk's romp with the Imposternaut awhile back on another board.


And if the next volume of SHE-HULK makes it past its initial six issues (hopefully!), there will be a story which completely disavows the "incident". That won't be the sole purpose of the story mind you (the actual idea for that story is kinda nifty)-- but it will finally put the lie to the idea that She-Hulk would EVER do something-like-that with someone who had tried to kill her beloved cousin on numerous ocassions."

[DoctorDoom]

It helped that the person writing it was totally incompetent. Like much of what Austen wrote, that was nonsense he just made up. The Juggernaut has always been extremely murderous. This is a man who once set out to kill everyone in an entire city. Personally. But to fit Cain as a hero Austen needed to retroactively clean up his past. So he whitewashed the little "inconveniences" to the reform plot like Cain's history of mass murder.

She-Hulk sleeping with him was I guess Austen's way of showing that all's forgiven and that even the superhero community accepts Cain. Which made for a funny story just because it was so bad it read like a comedy, but it was by no means a good depiction of any character involved. And since misportrayals were par for the course at the time it shouldn't have come as such a big shock to people. You could see it coming a mile away really.
CHeck out the past Excalibur Story arc they did about the Juggernaut. They still have him as trying to reform, but his past comes to light.... and it aint pretty. As it should be.

[PrimalScream]

In the same issue she claims she didn't sleep with Juggernaut... she comes on to Wolverine.

She appears to be a bit of a slut either way.

good for her.:D

[Cain Marko]

CHeck out the past Excalibur Story arc they did about the Juggernaut. They still have him as trying to reform, but his past comes to light.... and it aint pretty. As it should be.

Yep. That must have been a big shock to those who only knew Austen's cotton candy Juggernaut. It was good to see someone finally say enough with the revisionist BS and show the real Cain.

[mgs]

Dan spoke about She-Hulk's romp with the Imposternaut awhile back on another board.

this statement seems ridiculous considering how many times Hulk has tangled with Stark in the past, yet, she fully seems to be enjoying being taken advantage of in the recent she-hulk. (sorry, I mean Slott's, not yours. ;) )

[Orin GA]

Was cain murderous before he got the gem? Couldnt it be the gem itself that influenced him?

[XPac]

Was cain murderous before he got the gem? Couldnt it be the gem itself that influenced him?

He seemed to become a nicer guy once the gem was out of the picture. And we know Excemplars were influenced by the mystical entities that empowered them. So to a degree, I do think Juggernaut seemingly 360 redemption is justified.

[Red Orion]

this statement seems ridiculous considering how many times Hulk has tangled with Stark in the past, yet, she fully seems to be enjoying being taken advantage of in the recent she-hulk. (sorry, I mean Slott's, not yours. ;) )

It is ridiculous and a bit hypocritical.

[Cain Marko]

Was cain murderous before he got the gem? Couldnt it be the gem itself that influenced him?

It had an effect, sure. Drastically altered? No. It's been stated a number of times that Cain's original persona remained dominant after becoming the Juggernaut. Also keep in mind, Cain has no superhuman power of his own. Any superhuman strength and durability he has comes from evil power coursing through his veins. Even when stripped of almost all the Juggernaut power he was still rampantly murderous with just the little bit he had left.



He seemed to become a nicer guy once the gem was out of the picture. And we know Excemplars were influenced by the mystical entities that empowered them. So to a degree, I do think Juggernaut seemingly 360 redemption is justified.

Actually, the point was made that all the Exemplars were influenced except the Juggernaut. Click (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing3/Persona1.jpg)

[Cthulhudrew]

Was cain murderous before he got the gem? Couldnt it be the gem itself that influenced him?

Cain Marko covered the main points already, but one thing I thought I'd add is that Juggernaut was a mercenary before he acquired the gem, so one presumes that he did more than his share of killing.

[XPac]

Actually, the point was made that all the Exemplars were influenced except the Juggernaut. Click (http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing3/Persona1.jpg)

It's very clear that Juggernaut was largely his personality. I'm just arging that if marvel decides that his personality changed for the better, it's easy enough to justify by saying the gem to a degree is responsible since his personality change was roughtly around the same time he lost the gem.

If marvel wants an explanation, it's an easy one that fits reasonably well.

[AllisterH]

I disagree with Cain Marko. Austen gets a lot of gruff for something which he really didn't do much of.

The "redemption" angle didn't come from Austen originally, but from Defalco. Remember, it is the same Defalco who wrote the Juggernaut storyline where Cain throws a bus with people in it at Thor.

Yet later on wrote the battle with Thunderstrike where Cain actually pays/reimburses the firefighters because he's impressed by their moxy. He's also the one that came up with J2 based on X-men forever (notice his parole officer from the end of X-men forever is the mother of his child in the MC2 universe) which came out LONG before Austen took over the X-men writing jobs.

As for Cain being a mass murderer like Carnage, that I would disagree with. Cain was more of a guy who didn't care about the damage he caused than a guy who purposely went out looking for trouble (see his fight with Spider-man. Sure, he kidnapped Madame Web but at no time was he actually looking to kill anyone. It took a lot from Spidey to actually piss Cain off).

Then again, in the early days, Juggernaut was written as a guy who had no problem killing (see his fight with Spider-woman and his first fight with the Hulk) however, what Cain Marko tends to forget is that even before Austen, Cain was being written as more "mellow". A.k.a, leave him (and Black Tom for that matter) alone and Cain would be more than happy to just sit down and drink beers whole day long (see his fight with Colossus and Nimrod where he basically is doing nothing but trying to be left alone).

[Sheldon]

it was with a guy who tried to murder her cousin. it'd be like her sleeping with Tony Stark during the upcoming WW-Hulk crossover.

hahahahhahahahaha. Its funny that this was posted just before she does sleep with Tony in the latest issue!

[XPac]

hahahahhahahahaha. Its funny that this was posted just before she does sleep with Tony in the latest issue!

Maybe that's kind of a turn on for Jen.

Prior to fighting the Wendigo, she probably read up on it and found out Logan in his first adventure tried to take out Hulk in their first fight. And we know she tried to go for Logan two issues ago.

[Orion101]

SHE-HULK #21
Written by DAN SLOTT
Penciled by RICK BURCHETT
Cover by GREG HORN
THE MOST IMPORTANT MARVEL COMIC YOU WILL READ ALL YEAR!
"ANOTHER ME, ANOTHER U"
Ever notice how in some Marvel comics, characters who are SUPPOSED to be dead show up with NO explanation whatsoever? Or in the wrong costume? Or acting in a way they NEVER have before? Well guess what, True Believer, there was a reason. And that reason is going to have She-Hulk and her friends working on some of their STRANGEST cases yet! Don't miss it-- 'cause this is the issue that fixes 90% of Marvel's continuity problems-- from NOW ON!
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$2.99 Well this looks like it should take care of this little problem quite nicely, any thoughts. By the way the link with the cover is here http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays43_extra.html

[Mike Smash!]

Well this looks like it should take care of this little problem quite nicely, any thoughts. By the way the link with the cover is here http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays43_extra.htmlThat sounds like the kind of story that only Dan Slott could pull off. With any other writer, I could guarantee you it would be fanboy wankery.

But with Dan, it'll likely be funny and have plenty of jokes about fanboy wankery.

[Cain Marko]

Yet later on wrote the battle with Thunderstrike where Cain actually pays/reimburses the firefighters because he's impressed by their moxy.

...So?



He's also the one that came up with J2 based on X-men forever (notice his parole officer from the end of X-men forever is the mother of his child in the MC2 universe) which came out LONG before Austen took over the X-men writing jobs.

Aside from the fact that J2 is out of continuity and has no bearing on the Juggernaut, X-Men Forever came after J2, not vice versa. And X-Men Forever was immediately revealed to be a furthering of Cain's villainy, not reform. Cain continued as a villain in every single appearence before and after XMF until Austen.




As for Cain being a mass murderer like Carnage, that I would disagree with.

I didn't say anything about the Juggernaut being like Carnage. Most mass murderers aren't like Carnage. The Juggernaut is a sociopath. Which means he can commit virtually any act without conscience. As a sociopath he is perfectly sane, has a grasp on reality, and even has an honor code. But he has no true moral compass and can massacre loads of people without a moment's pause or guilt. Sociopaths are often considered worse than crazy killers because despite fully understanding what they're doing they kill anyway. Sociopaths also are notorious for never reforming.



Cain was more of a guy who didn't care about the damage he caused than a guy who purposely went out looking for trouble (see his fight with Spider-man. Sure, he kidnapped Madame Web but at no time was he actually looking to kill anyone. It took a lot from Spidey to actually piss Cain off).

But he was purposely looking for trouble. He said so himself. And he's aware that rumbling through public streets and buildings endangering people(or worse) would cause it. And when the Juggernaut found out Madame Web was of no personal use to him he tossed her to the ground to die. He didn't feel any guilt for possibly killing her, he just threw her away.

http://www.geocities.com/pic_housing3/Sociopath1.jpg

This is not the action of a sympathetic soul who just wants to be left alone. It's the action of a remorseless sociopath.




Then again, in the early days, Juggernaut was written as a guy who had no problem killing (see his fight with Spider-woman and his first fight with the Hulk) however, what Cain Marko tends to forget is that even before Austen, Cain was being written as more "mellow". A.k.a, leave him (and Black Tom for that matter) alone and Cain would be more than happy to just sit down and drink beers whole day long (see his fight with Colossus and Nimrod where he basically is doing nothing but trying to be left alone).

But this isn't true. The Juggernaut wanted trouble and destruction and actively sought both. Because he just happened to not be trying to kill anyone that particular day doesn't suggest he suddenly ceased being a cold-blooded criminal. Let's take a look at his next few appearences immediately after the Nimrod issue for good measure.

-Uncanny X-Men #217-218 - Goes on a murderous and completely unprovoked rampage through Britain

-Excalibur #3 - Is freed from prison after UXM #217-218's rampage; tears through the authorities, pounds Captain Britain

-Thor vol.1 #411-412 - tries to murder Thor and shows a complete disregard for human life;totally unprovoked by anyone. Again.

-Thor vol.1 #429 - subjugates a planet;fights Thor willing to beat him to death

-X-Force/Spider-Man crossover - hijacks and topples the World Trade Center;tries to kill Spider-Man and X-Force

The Juggernaut never was a person who needed much cause to kill and destroy. He'd just do it whenever he felt like it whether left alone or not. He enjoyed it.

*edited for drunken sloppiness

[Loner]

Shulk was the Abomination's slave-mistress in that series, guys, and that's not funny. Besides, since it's just a possible future, there's no need to retcon it (though I hope they do prevent it from happening.)

What are you talking about?

It was the MAESTRO who locked Shulk up in that tomb. Emil apparently had feelings for Jen but it was not clear if they had been involved or not. when she came to she flipped out because he hadn't killed off the woman carrying the Hulk's child.

I certainly don't remember him having been depicted as raping her.

[blackphoenix]

Over 200 posts.
Over 13 pages long.
Over 6,000 views.
So... This is a topic nobody cares about? ;)
Shyeah, right.

And that's all I've got to say about it...
...until SHE-HULK Vol.2 #21.

ttyl
Dan

This better be good, Mr. Slott! I'm guessing it has something to do with Jen having multiple personality disorder like her brother the Hulk(I was thinking "cousin", but typed brother).