Is there a way to describe the pre-CW world?

[jackolover]

Can you imagine what it was like before the Civil War? I am having trouble.
You can describe that the heros had it all their own way. They had a free run.
That villians had a clear run at any scheme they ever wanted.
That heros had no concern about what effect, a combat with villians, had on the populous.

I gotta tell ya, the whole CW thing has changed my mentality, so that I virtually live the new Registration MU. I cannot imagine heros being independant, operating in a safe world, unencombered. The whole environment, post-CW, is so structured, regimented, and any hero, unregistered, can expect to be visited by a hidden force, as experienced by Prodigy in FL #2, or, like Hellcat in She-Hulk #10.

I tried to picture the world without Capekillers, and the only way I could describe it, is this -

Expert mechanics, good at their trade.
Instant responders at the moment danger appears.
Firefighters, who are tasked with thwarting any approaching threat, before the authorities are aware of the threat.
The confidence and the spirit to express their gifts.

Edit : I keep thinking of that 7 issue CW series, and how it set up to terrorise the hero community. It gradually builds up pressure.
First, Caps foiled arrest
Then the unmasking of IM and SM
Then the Stark Industries Plant Battle
Then SM's defection
Then the finale battle that cements the change in place.

It almost feels like the institution of Nazism on the heros. Every other citizen had rights and freedoms. But heros, now, have the handcuffs of self-administration. I think Stark got it wrong. If the FSI worked properly, then all the combatants wouldn't feel like jackboots were everywhere. Heros now feel, like guest workers do, in European cities, now.

[gorthon616]

If the FSI worked properly, then all the combatants wouldn't feel like jackboots were everywhere.

FSI?

And I don't think that you can equate illegalizing vigilantism with Nazism. Though I suppose since the super-hero "industry" is becoming nationalized the statement does make a certain degree of sense. But even in a world where there the super-hero "industry" was privatized, the government would be within it's rights to regulate it.

[Phrozen]

Yeah: Relative sanity.

[Haunt]

wild wild west

[MaxofSteel]

"Loosey Goosey".


Nowadays it's just all "tighty whitey".

[StoneGold]

10 cents to $2.99

[jackolover]

I would say The pre-CW MU was innocent. It was based on the premise of a roaming band of adventure seekers, who happened to have various, facinating, abilities, that expanded as each character became more complex.

It was a non-lethal universe, where heroes made impossible escapes, and avoided incredible dangers from hate driven menaces, but which never took the life of the heroes.

[StoneGold]

I would say The pre-CW MU was innocent. It was based on the premise of a roaming band of adventure seekers, who happened to have various, facinating, abilities, that expanded as each character became more complex.

It was a non-lethal universe, where heroes made impossible escapes, and avoided incredible dangers from hate driven menaces, but which never took the life of the heroes.

Only if your version of the pre-CW MU stopped at about 1970.

[IamtheRock3]

Sure it wasnt as innocent as DC but it was innocent


Heroes Rarely killed innocents in thier fights
They rarely really mess up fighting a villans causing innocent deaths
Hulk rampages somehow didn't kill people
The public was cool with the Avenger and fantastic Four, even though some of them were vilgianlties
The goverment was after them
They didnt have thier version of the suicide squad



Sure Xmen were perscuted, and the persecution hasnt lessen, but Xmen lived in their own little world sometimes


I mean you now Got Captain America the icon causing a lot of innocent to die in a fight he cause in new York city.

And iron man, well...he went nuts

[Dark Ben]

well from about 1998 to 2006 I'd say "better", I read far less marvel books now than 3 years ago

[StoneGold]

Heroes Rarely killed innocents in thier fightsBut occasionally did.
They rarely really mess up fighting a villans causing innocent deathsWell, not with random characters. Usually just with named people. The Stacy's, for instance.
Hulk rampages somehow didn't kill peopleTell that to Peter David.
The public was cool with the Avenger and fantastic Four, even though some of them were vilgianltiesExcept when they weren't. Kree/Skrull War, the invasion of Latveria, the UN protests...
The goverment was after themI don't know what that means.
They didnt have thier version of the suicide squadFreedom Force? The Redeemers?

[IamtheRock3]

gwen stacey was tossed off a brige. He just was bad at saving her and did the wrong thing

Cap cause 32 deaths of innocents with no villan involve

Oh meant to say the goverment wasnt after them as much

[IamtheRock3]

Also the redeemers were actully trying be redeemed, or they were sponer by heroes, nor they were universal accepted by the public and heroes were not

Thunderbolts got all 3

[Red Lotus]

wild wild west

For some reason I just cant get the thought of a giant spider in the 3rd act out of my mind.

[StoneGold]

gwen stacey was tossed off a brige. He just was bad at saving her and did the wrong thing
Hey, it was a mess up. But I was also referring to George, who got killed when rubble Doc Ock knocked over fell on him when he was pushing a kid out of the way.

Cap cause 32 deaths of innocents with no villan involve
Yeah, I know, dyslexia, but I have no idea what you are saying[/quote]
Oh meant to say the goverment wasnt after them as much[/QUOTE]

Hard to say, since the post CW era is just beginning, but if you haven't been hunted down by the government at some point, you aren't a real hero in the Marvel Universe. Hell, the number of times it has happened to Cap, Iron Man and Thor alone, both on and off the Avengers...

[jackolover]

Only if your version of the pre-CW MU stopped at about 1970.

Well lets see.

Spidey was left comfortably alone to persue his transformation into 'The Other' in ASM #526
The FF had a silly little aside with Diablo's 'Bad Dream' story in FF #528.
The NA were despatched to counter 'The Community' or some such, in NA #16, all of which were without scrutiny from the public. They each had there little world drama, and were left alone.

Now we have the populace overseeing superhuman Hunters

[StoneGold]

Well lets see.

Spidey was left comfortably alone to persue his transformation into 'The Other' in ASM #526
The FF had a silly little aside with Diablo's 'Bad Dream' story in FF #528.
The NA were despatched to counter 'The Community' or some such, in NA #16, all of which were without scrutiny from the public. They each had there little world drama, and were left alone.

Now we have the populace overseeing superhuman Hunters

If you want to cherry pick your continuity, sure. But hell, go back all the way to the Kree Skrull War, and you'd have the government cracking down on the Avengers.


I mean, why not just bring up Spidey Super Stories, if it helps your innocent case?

[jackolover]

If you want to cherry pick your continuity, sure. But hell, go back all the way to the Kree Skrull War, and you'd have the government cracking down on the Avengers.


I mean, why not just bring up Spidey Super Stories, if it helps your innocent case?

The Kree -Skrull War was a fair example of a hostile environment, as the Gov appointed guy, started a hate campaign against the Avengers for harbouring an alien (Capt. Marvel). But it wasn't as wholesale as the CW turned out to be. A few protestors trashed the Mansion, but the Avengers were not arrested or pursued.

The Spidey Super Stories were cute little cartoons on TV. I wouldn't use that as an argument, but thanks anyway.

Edit : Go to ASM #529 and turn to pages 18 - 22. There you will see the transformation of the MU, in that little conversation between Tony and Peter. There, Tony insinuates he cannot trust all the New Avengers, one of which is Cap, another which is Cage. It basically describes the shift, and eventual outcome, of the CW, with Tony's mindset, and nothing changed Tony from that course, right to the very end - the Initiative.

With Tony thinking Initiative, and nothing else, it was the force of his will that brought the CW to it's conclusion. Sure, Reed and Hank were helpers. But it was Tony who fought out front, and pushed the whole thing through.

What I'm getting at is, before Tony framed his mindset in ASM #529, he was not paranoid about the successful prospects of the SHRA for super-humans, as in the loose approach of the FF (#334-336) in Acts of Vengence, when Reed defused the Registration lobby, and was nothing like the urgency shown by Tony in CW. The heroes were not as concerned in those days (Acts of Vengence), as what happened post Stamford.

[jackolover]

Revisiting this idea of pre-Civil War Marvel, I keep thinking of that confusion in the MU. Before the Mighty Avengers attacked Doom,and overan Latveria, the UN were so peeved Reed Richards took over Latveria, that they confiscated all his assets, leaving the FF vulnerable.

The Hulk, post-Bruce Jones, was basically a nocturnal animal, after the Las Vegas damage in the FF, caused by SHIELD, themselves, for using Hulk to deactivate one of their own weapons. (Or more devious still, trying to lure Hulk into an assassination attempt on Hulks life).

The Avengers had just Disassembled, and if that wasn't enough, HoM appeared to Disassemble the whole Marvel Universe, there as well. So not only did Tony Starks hold on the frontline security group The Avengers) get sabotaged. But then a reality attack confused everybody (HoM), (until they forgot all about it).

When the New Avengers assembled, it was because of a massive escape of prisoners from Raft, and then the NA weren't sure whether they were being manipulated.

As far as I can recall, Namor and the Inhumans were at peace with the world, despite the declared war of Black Bolt for the missing Terrigen crystals.

Secret War then resurfaces, (also forgotten like HoM), after an attack on NA's Luke Cage, (which coincidentally looked to assemble the same group of Avengers that met for a second time at the Raft breakout).

This was the atmosphere around the MU before the CW, and just reading that outline makes me bristle with anticipation of something ready to explode.

The MU was not a happy place. In fact, the MU was hovering at the point of ignition, and was holding it's collective breath, when Stamford exploded on the radar. It was like the MU had grown a conscience, and just needed the push to make the jump from sleeping dragon, to full on fire breathing dragon.

Not only was the Skrull Invasion brewing, but a disenchantment by the humans of super humans, was brewing, also, just below the surface.

If you consider the Spiderman book, Peter Parker was going through a transformation, from social worker/Teacher, to fighting for his existence against Ezechiel; to Sins Past and Sins Remembered; to The Other. The whole storyline reeked of a building crisis in Peters life, until May Parkers house burnt down, and the Parkers had to eventually flee into the arms of Tony Stark for help.

And there we had it. The hero of the MU (Spiderman), at the pleasure of Tony Stark. What could you want any more than the Tzar of manipulation having the vulnerable hero, totally dependant on him, alone, when Tony Reed and Hank Pym had shown a propensity to act alone (in MK Wolverine), outside the confines of their own peer group (the super humans). Once the ball had been set in motion, and the 100 point plan was allowed to be unleashed on the world, it sounded the death knell for super human activity as we knew it.

[mikekerr3]

Revisiting this idea of pre-Civil War Marvel, I keep thinking of that confusion in the MU. Before the Mighty Avengers attacked Doom,and overan Latveria, the UN were so peeved Reed Richards took over Latveria, that they confiscated all his assets, leaving the FF vulnerable.

The Hulk, post-Bruce Jones, was basically a nocturnal animal, after the Las Vegas damage in the FF, caused by SHIELD, themselves, for using Hulk to deactivate one of their own weapons. (Or more devious still, trying to lure Hulk into an assassination attempt on Hulks life).

The Avengers had just Disassembled, and if that wasn't enough, HoM appeared to Disassemble the whole Marvel Universe, there as well. So not only did Tony Starks hold on the frontline security group The Avengers) get sabotaged. But then a reality attack confused everybody (HoM), (until they forgot all about it).

When the New Avengers assembled, it was because of a massive escape of prisoners from Raft, and then the NA weren't sure whether they were being manipulated.

As far as I can recall, Namor and the Inhumans were at peace with the world, despite the declared war of Black Bolt for the missing Terrigen crystals.

Secret War then resurfaces, (also forgotten like HoM), after an attack on NA's Luke Cage, (which coincidentally looked to assemble the same group of Avengers that met for a second time at the Raft breakout).

This was the atmosphere around the MU before the CW, and just reading that outline makes me bristle with anticipation of something ready to explode.

The MU was not a happy place. In fact, the MU was hovering at the point of ignition, and was holding it's collective breath, when Stamford exploded on the radar. It was like the MU had grown a conscience, and just needed the push to make the jump from sleeping dragon, to full on fire breathing dragon.

Not only was the Skrull Invasion brewing, but a disenchantment by the humans of super humans, was brewing, also, just below the surface.

If you consider the Spiderman book, Peter Parker was going through a transformation, from social worker/Teacher, to fighting for his existence against Ezechiel; to Sins Past and Sins Remembered; to The Other. The whole storyline reeked of a building crisis in Peters life, until May Parkers house burnt down, and the Parkers had to eventually flee into the arms of Tony Stark for help.

And there we had it. The hero of the MU (Spiderman), at the pleasure of Tony Stark. What could you want any more than the Tzar of manipulation having the vulnerable hero, totally dependant on him, alone, when Tony Reed and Hank Pym had shown a propensity to act alone (in MK Wolverine), outside the confines of their own peer group (the super humans). Once the ball had been set in motion, and the 100 point plan was allowed to be unleashed on the world, it sounded the death knell for super human activity as we knew it.

The Constitution is now functionally toilet paper.

"You have no rights" is used by goverment officials who are not fired/arrested immediately. that alone is an abomination worse than anything the villians have managed to do in the Mu's history

The Courts are a joke

No appreciable reduction in the amount of damage dome in the books.

The public praised Norman Osborn an unrepentat mass murder and condems Captain America.

The primary law Enforcement Agency in the world commits Genocide and mass murder.

An avenger feels free to shoot someone without provocation with a machine gun in a refugee camp,

The director of Shield commits Stock fraud and other crimes and the police and journalists know and do nothing

The Secretary of the Super-human Armed forces is a genocidal bigot whop uses his own people for unwilling experimentation'

ONE and SHEILD experement on living prisoners

The primary enforcement arm of the SHRA is filled with murderers..

It is a crime to be too smart without a licence from the goverment.

And Please cut it with the vigilante BS. It is the Super-human registration act not the Super-Hero registration act.

I would say the place is malignant now.

Cut the humans as weapons bit to humans have rights and weapons are objects. If you can't ell the difference i really pity you.

[Zacharius]

Originally by jackolover

Revisiting this idea of pre-Civil War Marvel, I keep thinking of that confusion in the MU. Before the Mighty Avengers attacked Doom,and overan Latveria, the UN were so peeved Reed Richards took over Latveria, that they confiscated all his assets, leaving the FF vulnerable.


Yes and Reed who can supposedly out-prep even Dr.Doom could not figure out a way to defeat the UN.

[The Black Guardian]

The way I describe pre-CW -- fun.

Now it's anti-fun.

[jackolover]

Yes and Reed who can supposedly out-prep even Dr.Doom could not figure out a way to defeat the UN.\

Hmm. Theres the rub, isn't it. Reed would never consider undermining a recognised global authority, because that is something Doctor Doom would do. No, Reed decides to obey the ruling of the UN and subjugates himself to their authority.

Reed does the same in the Civil War, when the authority makes the rules to make super humans register, Reed has these pangs of conscience remembering what his uncle was put through for messing with the man. It was a telling example of Reeds uncle, not buckling before the commitee that weeds out Communist sympathisers (that don't exist in America), and yet Reed still persists that the law is the law, and you must obey, before even your own conscience.

Where, in the constitution, does it say you should become outright accomidating of any whim the government decides to bring about? I think Reed has always been intimidated by the government. It is one of his weaknesses.

[jackolover]

The Constitution is now functionally toilet paper.

"You have no rights" is used by goverment officials who are not fired/arrested immediately. that alone is an abomination worse than anything the villians have managed to do in the Mu's history

The Courts are a joke

No appreciable reduction in the amount of damage dome in the books.

The public praised Norman Osborn an unrepentat mass murder and condems Captain America.

The primary law Enforcement Agency in the world commits Genocide and mass murder.

An avenger feels free to shoot someone without provocation with a machine gun in a refugee camp,

The director of Shield commits Stock fraud and other crimes and the police and journalists know and do nothing

The Secretary of the Super-human Armed forces is a genocidal bigot whop uses his own people for unwilling experimentation'

ONE and SHEILD experement on living prisoners

The primary enforcement arm of the SHRA is filled with murderers..

It is a crime to be too smart without a licence from the goverment.

And Please cut it with the vigilante BS. It is the Super-human registration act not the Super-Hero registration act.

I would say the place is malignant now.

Cut the humans as weapons bit to humans have rights and weapons are objects. If you can't ell the difference i really pity you.

What about pre-CW? Would you say that the MU heroes were happy, contented, and in tune with the human population? Is there anything about that time, that could lead you to believe that everything still looked rosy, or, were there signs that heros were going to be needing to change how they did business?

How far back, could you say, was there a warning that there was change in the offing?

[Zacharius]

When fictional setting like MU is created, there are two important considerations, internal and external.

First internal. If there is a fictional Earth, how the existence of extraordinary beings like superhumans, aliens , Cosmics, etc will affect it ? Should real world nations exist at all ? Fictional world won´t be realistic but it should have a degree of self-consistency. If the government has limited resources it should not be capable of producing unlimited amount of Sentinels, etc.

Another is external consideration. Comics must interesting for readers or they refuse to buy, company makes no profit and then no comics at all.

So even if factor A (like superhumans) might result in factor B (superhumans overthrow normals), it won´t happen if publishers believe that most readers would dislike it.


That´s why Anti-Regs had to lose. Publishers decided that most readers want to keep US Government in Marvel U and superhuman dictatorship is not OK.

Marvel could have kept Age of Apocalypse or House of M permanently but how many would keep buying comics ?

So next time you call something PIS, maybe reason is that readers keep voting with their wallets and most of them like that "PIS".

[The Black Guardian]

What about pre-CW? Would you say that the MU heroes were happy, contented, and in tune with the human population?
Happy and content? Usually.
In touch with the human population? Very much. Even Cap was definitely not a guy stuck 60 years in the past.
Is there anything about that time, that could lead you to believe that everything still looked rosy, or, were there signs that heros were going to be needing to change how they did business?
For the most part, things were rosy, and there were no signs that heroes needed to change how they did business. There still aren't, imo.
How far back, could you say, was there a warning that there was change in the offing?
The first "Road to Civil War" issue... whenever that was.

[Magneto Rocks]

Reed does the same in the Civil War, when the authority makes the rules to make super humans register, Reed has these pangs of conscience remembering what his uncle was put through for messing with the man. It was a telling example of Reeds uncle, not buckling before the commitee that weeds out Communist sympathisers (that don't exist in America), and yet Reed still persists that the law is the law, and you must obey, before even your own conscience.

Ummm... did you miss FF #542? Because it specifically states that Reed doesn't believe a word of what he said about his uncle being wrong, he just put that out as an excuse because he was trying to hide the truth from his family so they wouldn't get hurt. In fact, FF542 takes the claim that Reed believes "the law is the law and we must always obey it", and explicitly states that he doesn't think this at all, only said it to drive away his family so they'd be safe.

Where, in the constitution, does it say you should become outright accomidating of any whim the government decides to bring about? I think Reed has always been intimidated by the government. It is one of his weaknesses.

Then you're completely wrong, and there's nothing anywhere in Marvel history to justify it. Reed defied the UN itself in his occupation of Latveria, he's confronted the government countless times, he testified against the old registration act himself once, and in this instance, fear of the government wasn'e ven a slight motivator. Can you name even a single instance of Reed being intimidated by the government?

"You have no rights" is used by goverment officials who are not fired/arrested immediately. that alone is an abomination worse than anything the villians have managed to do in the Mu's history

...No, it's really not. At all.

...Seriously, you're going to claim that a SHIELD employee snapping that someone has no rights (and being proven wrong, of course) is an abomination far worse than, say, blowing up half New York and slaughtering the populace?

If so, we're taking paranoia to a whole new level here.

The Courts are a joke

And you base this on...?

No appreciable reduction in the amount of damage dome in the books.

A lack of appreciable reduction of damage is unconstitutional?

The public praised Norman Osborn an unrepentat mass murder and condems Captain America.

Not quite true- the public don't get to really see about Norman Osborn, after all. They condemned a guy they KNOW was trying to subvert the will of the people, and they kind of react with indifference to a murderer who they don't know is a murderer. It's really not the same thing.

The primary law Enforcement Agency in the world commits Genocide and mass murder.

No, it doesn't, but feel free to keep repeating this since evidence doesn't seem to deter you.

An avenger feels free to shoot someone without provocation with a machine gun in a refugee camp,

...I'm sorry, what? I have no idea what this is referencing.

The director of Shield commits Stock fraud and other crimes and the police and journalists know and do nothing

Well, several points. Firstly, someone comitting stock fraud is really not a colossal signal that the constitution has been torn to shreds. Secondly, he was not the Director of SHIELD when he did it, and yes, that's an EXTREMELY important distinction. Thirdly, any charge of stock fraud would have to be mitigated by circumstance (The fact that it went to charities, and the fact that it was almost certainly taken from corrupt officials) which, like it or not, does in fact make it considerably less bad.

The Secretary of the Super-human Armed forces is a genocidal bigot whop uses his own people for unwilling experimentation'

I'm not exactly Gyrich's biggest fan, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him genocidal, and I have no idea who exactly he used for unwilling experimentation. MVP? He was dead, can't really call him unwilling.

ONE and SHEILD experement on living prisoners

No actually, tiny rogue factions of them do- and you're kidding yourself if you don't think these things happen in the real world.

The primary enforcement arm of the SHRA is filled with murderers..

Um.... it is? Because I'd say the primary enforcement arm is probably... I dunno, SHIELD or the Avengers, and I'd say neither has really got very many murderers on them. Like, at all.

It is a crime to be too smart without a licence from the goverment.

No, it's really not. You keep citing Amadeus Cho and ignoring the minor detail that SHIELD were looking out for his interests to stop him harming himself and others before he, y'know, blew up a helicarrier without provocation.

And Please cut it with the vigilante BS. It is the Super-human registration act not the Super-Hero registration act.

And yet as has been demonstrated a thousand times, you can choose to simply retire rather than get lisenced, so it effectively is about only vigilantes.

Cut the humans as weapons bit to humans have rights and weapons are objects.

Can we call them an unholy fusion of weapon and human then?

[jackolover]

Ummm... did you miss FF #542? Because it specifically states that Reed doesn't believe a word of what he said about his uncle being wrong, he just put that out as an excuse because he was trying to hide the truth from his family so they wouldn't get hurt. In fact, FF542 takes the claim that Reed believes "the law is the law and we must always obey it", and explicitly states that he doesn't think this at all, only said it to drive away his family so they'd be safe.

I re-read that exerpt, in FF #542, and it doesn't make it clear, although Sue makes the statement you refer too. At the end Sue walks away unconvinced that Reed made this decision based on years of calculations. She still felt he could have beaten the odds, instead of hide behind statistics, like Ben Urich tried to tell Reed.

So, yes, Reed didn't seem to appear afraid of the government and the law of SHRA, but he did seem afraid of the future trends and what the government would do.



Then you're completely wrong, and there's nothing anywhere in Marvel history to justify it. Reed defied the UN itself in his occupation of Latveria, he's confronted the government countless times, he testified against the old registration act himself once, and in this instance, fear of the government wasn'e ven a slight motivator. Can you name even a single instance of Reed being intimidated by the government?


I'm not sure if this is an example, but once Reed had completed the Latverian occupation, and the military confronted him, he caved and let all his assests be stripped away from him and the FF. That might be construed as intimidated.

[jackolover]

Happy and content? Usually.
In touch with the human population? Very much. Even Cap was definitely not a guy stuck 60 years in the past.

For the most part, things were rosy, and there were no signs that heroes needed to change how they did business. There still aren't, imo.

The first "Road to Civil War" issue... whenever that was.

I would go back as far as before Avengers Disassembled, when the only thing bothering the Avengers was the little drama over in England they took care of, and before that the Geof Johns run on the Avengers when everything was hunky dore. After the Avengers 'Avalon' story arc, the whole universe went to pot, and the only pointer was the Identity Disc story.

[Magneto Rocks]

I re-read that exerpt, in FF #542, and it doesn't make it clear, although Sue makes the statement you refer too. At the end Sue walks away unconvinced that Reed made this decision based on years of calculations. She still felt he could have beaten the odds, instead of hide behind statistics, like Ben Urich tried to tell Reed.

It makes it extremely clear- in fact, when Reed spouts his "The law is the law" thing to Johnny, Johnny doesn't buy it and then Reed gives him a look to indicate that Johnny's right, that's not his real reason! And then Sue spells it out! It's also not "hiding" behind statistics- Sue thinks they have to overcome the odds, he knows they can't. It's heart vs brains. And as we've seen proven beyond a doubt, his calculations WERE correct. She knows he made the deciosion based on this, she says it later, she just doesn't WANT to accept it.

So, yes, Reed didn't seem to appear afraid of the government and the law of SHRA, but he did seem afraid of the future trends and what the government would do.

More like he was afraid of, y'know, the apocalypse.

I'm not sure if this is an example, but once Reed had completed the Latverian occupation, and the military confronted him, he caved and let all his assests be stripped away from him and the FF. That might be construed as intimidated.

Um... no. Re-read the story- Reed had gone pretty mad due to what Doom had done to him and his story, the UN were threatening war on the Latverian people, and Reed's actions led to the death of Ben. I don't think you can say he was intimidated by the government even remotely- more like in utter shock over Ben's death. Plus, they were in the wrong in that circumstance and they knew it- there were no assets stripped from the FF, but people stopped trusting them- and I can't blame them, to be honest.

[mikekerr3]

...No, it's really not. At all.

...Seriously, you're going to claim that a SHIELD employee snapping that someone has no rights (and being proven wrong, of course) is an abomination far worse than, say, blowing up half New York and slaughtering the populace?

If so, we're taking paranoia to a whole new level here.


It wasn't just once, Same thing was said to Speedball in prison. I view it as worse because when govement officials decide that the constitution/bill of rights is optional the countries survival as a democracy is in jeopardy. I know you don't like to hear it but haven't seen a trial that wasn't a joke of a super-hero. Howard the Ducks Trial was a farce he was made to promise not to use powers he didn't have


And you base this on...?

Three trials of people who were not viallians, two defendents shot, one a duck without super powers



A lack of appreciable reduction of damage is unconstitutional?

Didn't say it was just make the law useless




Not quite true- the public don't get to really see about Norman Osborn, after all. They condemned a guy they KNOW was trying to subvert the will of the people, and they kind of react with indifference to a murderer who they don't know is a murderer. It's really not the same thing.

The Green Goblin has been blowing things up and killing in new york for years and nobody notice. Are the Citizens on the MU illiterate as well as stupid. I guess the don't watch tV news either. The idea that a major villian was caught and exposed and nobody know what he did is silly



No, it doesn't, but feel free to keep repeating this since evidence doesn't seem to deter you.

MA#6 Sheild blew up the prisoner/Slaves held by Sheild. SW#6 Suicide bombers delivered by Sheild destroy most of a citie population in a genocide attempt. No evidence shown that anyone but Sheild and tTHe MU goverment to blame for either.


...I'm sorry, what? I have no idea what this is referencing.

The Oh-so accountable Avenger Ares shooting Herc with bullet designed to make him crazy. Same "Hero" hit Wonder-man i the head later.




I'm not exactly Gyrich's biggest fan, but I wouldn't go as far as to call him genocidal, and I have no idea who exactly he used for unwilling experimentation. MVP? He was dead, can't really call him unwilling.

The MVP clone he tried the Tacigon on had to be orfered to do so, Pym warned Gyrich it could be fatal.
The genocide comes from his Involvement with Wideake and the Sentinal Prime Project (which he supported until they came after him)




No actually, tiny rogue factions of them do- and you're kidding yourself if you don't think these things happen in the real world.

ONE was torturing and experimenting on The inhumans in the Pentigon. I find it hard to believe that the CUBE a large flying facilitie was run by a rouge faction. Tony Stark was experimenting on the Gamma villians working on spin.



Um.... it is? Because I'd say the primary enforcement arm is probably... I dunno, SHIELD or the Avengers, and I'd say neither has really got very many murderers on them. Like, at all.

The only people who hunt anti-regs full time are the Thunderbolts who have at least three mass murders. Shield has a mass murderer as deputy director



No, it's really not. You keep citing Amadeus Cho and ignoring the minor detail that SHIELD were looking out for his interests to stop him harming himself and others before he, y'know, blew up a helicarrier without provocation.

Sheild was coming to arrest him when he knocked down the Helicopter carryng the strike team. THe said specifically that he was to be arrested for violating the SHRA. He had proof that Shields was involved in a kidnapping or his friend before he had the carrier shoot itself so I don't think any same person would trust them. His other option was to go to Starks gulag in 42 or do something he thought was immoral.

The one person they sent to actually talk with him attacked him with super-powers without provocation.




And yet as has been demonstrated a thousand times, you can choose to simply retire rather than get lisenced, so it effectively is about only vigilantes.

Can you promise that you can stay retired? Iron Man himself could not say that Jessica could stay retired. Some people don't have the option not to use their powers. Wonder man was extorted to join. Retirement would depend on Shields goodwill and scruples.



Can we call them an unholy fusion of weapon and human then?

No just human, with all the rights of a human, no more or less. They should be only subject under law for thier actions not what they might do, just what the do.

[Zacharius]

Originally by Magneto Rocks

Plus, they were in the wrong in that circumstance and they knew it- there were no assets stripped from the FF, but people stopped trusting them- and I can't blame them, to be honest.

In MU people are not themselves worthy of any trust and in any case superheroes should be concerned only about protecting the world, not their popularity.

[Magneto Rocks]

It wasn't just once, Same thing was said to Speedball in prison. I view it as worse because when govement officials decide that the constitution/bill of rights is optional the countries survival as a democracy is in jeopardy. I know you don't like to hear it but haven't seen a trial that wasn't a joke of a super-hero. Howard the Ducks Trial was a farce he was made to promise not to use powers he didn't have

Well, good, because one farcical trial CLEARLY means the entire system must be destroyed at once!

And I cannot remotely agree with you on prioritising. We've seen virtually no-one say "You have no rights", when they did, it was NEVER true or acted upon as thoughi t were true, and it was never even vaguely indicated to be the view of SHIELD as a whole. So "Minor SHIELD beaurocrat makes vague threat" does not in fact outrank "Villain blows up New York" on my list of bad things.

Three trials of people who were not viallians, two defendents shot, one a duck without super powers

Hang on, now the COURTS are to blame for Captain America's death? Or Speedball's shooting for that matter?

The Green Goblin has been blowing things up and killing in new york for years and nobody notice. Are the Citizens on the MU illiterate as well as stupid. I guess the don't watch tV news either. The idea that a major villian was caught and exposed and nobody know what he did is silly

The Goblin was only exposed as Osborn recently and VERY few people know the extent of his crimes.


MA#6 Sheild blew up the prisoner/Slaves held by Sheild. SW#6 Suicide bombers delivered by Sheild destroy most of a citie population in a genocide attempt. No evidence shown that anyone but Sheild and tTHe MU goverment to blame for either.

Once again we see you leap to the worst possible conclusion. You continue to cite two stories which are absolutely knee-deep in Skrulls. Two stories with MAJOR ties to the upcoming Secret Invasion, with MAJOR decisions taken that are completely out of character by key characters... and you cite it as though its absolute fact that your biased interpretation is correct. I won't be surprised when you still blame them for it even after it's proven the Skrulls were responsible, though.

The Oh-so accountable Avenger Ares shooting Herc with bullet designed to make him crazy. Same "Hero" hit Wonder-man i the head later.

Again, we see your view of "If we don't see it, automatically assume Stark did something evil." We don't know whether or not Ares was disciplined- so it's absurd to assume "No, he DEFINITELY was not!", particularly when the chances that he was are quite high given Wonder Man's friendship with Tony.

The MVP clone he tried the Tacigon on had to be orfered to do so, Pym warned Gyrich it could be fatal.

Everyone has a right to refuse. He was reluctant, but the fact that he did it makes him willing.

ONE was torturing and experimenting on The inhumans in the Pentigon. I find it hard to believe that the CUBE a large flying facilitie was run by a rouge faction. Tony Stark was experimenting on the Gamma villians working on spin.

Considering it's quite clear Tony Stark has no idea about the Cube, then yeah, it's very easy to believe. The Gamma villains were all volunteers for a government program- are you gonna say the FDR government in the MU was evil for the super soldier experiments?

[qupote]The only people who hunt anti-regs full time are the Thunderbolts who have at least three mass murders. Shield has a mass murderer as deputy director[/quote]

Actually no, SHIELD doesn't. That aside, the Thunderbolts have yet to actually murder anyone as Thunderbolts.

Sheild was coming to arrest him when he knocked down the Helicopter carryng the strike team. THe said specifically that he was to be arrested for violating the SHRA. He had proof that Shields was involved in a kidnapping or his friend before he had the carrier shoot itself so I don't think any same person would trust them. His other option was to go to Starks gulag in 42 or do something he thought was immoral.

Um, no, not really. I mean, besides everything else, Amadeus Cho was very, VERY clearly in the wrong. The only reason he immediately suspected the worst is because he's a paranoid little idiot who makes wild assumptions with zero evidence to back them up.

The one person they sent to actually talk with him attacked him with super-powers without provocation.

Well, that's fine, because I'm sure Cho would have listened to him happily.

Can you promise that you can stay retired? Iron Man himself could not say that Jessica could stay retired. Some people don't have the option not to use their powers. Wonder man was extorted to join. Retirement would depend on Shields goodwill and scruples.

Not really. We've seen several people retire, we've seen no-one drafted out of retirement. The only thing to even vaguely indicate it's not clear was that Tony didn't fully know back in NA 22, before the law was finished. And remember, Wonder Man was ILLEGALLY extorted to join. So again we're back to square 1- Can you retire?- Yes. Do you have to join if you don't want to?- No. Simple.

No just human, with all the rights of a human, no more or less. They should be only subject under law for thier actions not what they might do, just what the do.

I disagree here, because it's the same principle as gun registration. It's not a case of freedom vs security, not really, more a case of common sense vs paranoia. I mean, one could try to argue that locking up MURDERERS is a violation of their rights- but one would be wrong. There are always exceptional circumstances, and saying "Everyone has the freedom to do anything" is just completely wrong.

[mikekerr3]

Well, good, because one farcical trial CLEARLY means the entire system must be destroyed at once!

And I cannot remotely agree with you on prioritising. We've seen virtually no-one say "You have no rights", when they did, it was NEVER true or acted upon as thoughi t were true, and it was never even vaguely indicated to be the view of SHIELD as a whole. So "Minor SHIELD beaurocrat makes vague threat" does not in fact outrank "Villain blows up New York" on my list of bad things.

Speedballs lack of rights were amply demostrated, I was stated that he wasn't being held under noraml law and that he was a"combatant" with no rights.


Hang on, now the COURTS are to blame for Captain America's death? Or Speedball's shooting for that matter?

No a justicce system with 100% failure rate of bringing people already in custody to trial make the courts a farce.



The Goblin was only exposed as Osborn recently and VERY few people know the extent of his crimes.

I guess nobody noticed the murders often in broar dayligh in manhatten, or ever read the Daily bugle. If they know 10% of his grimes that would be enough to put him i jail forever with a reputation like Ted Bundies




Once again we see you leap to the worst possible conclusion. You continue to cite two stories which are absolutely knee-deep in Skrulls. Two stories with MAJOR ties to the upcoming Secret Invasion, with MAJOR decisions taken that are completely out of character by key characters... and you cite it as though its absolute fact that your biased interpretation is correct. I won't be surprised when you still blame them for it even after it's proven the Skrulls were responsible, though.

In NA#6 the rockets came from a Sheild Helicarier, maria hill even talked about how carefull the targeting was, no Skrull responsible ther, even if the SKrull were running the Secret Base.

In SW#6 maria hill and every Shield agent involved would have to have been a Skrull for the responsiblity not to have been Shields. Sheild is a UN agency and she should have politly tod the US to stuff where the sun don't shine, Instead She provided esential help to attempted genocide.

I can see the Skrull being involved in giving the orders but Shield didn't have to follow them. That pretty common law since Nuremberg.



Again, we see your view of "If we don't see it, automatically assume Stark did something evil." We don't know whether or not Ares was disciplined- so it's absurd to assume "No, he DEFINITELY was not!", particularly when the chances that he was are quite high given Wonder Man's friendship with Tony.

He put thousands of lives at risk and ruined a peacefull negotiation with Herc.. He is still an Avenger "Nuff Said"


Everyone has a right to refuse. He was reluctant, but the fact that he did it makes him willing.

It didn't seem that he knew he could actually refuse, he was days old and programmed by a nazi. I doubt he new he could refuse and walk out the gate. I really doubt he could



Considering it's quite clear Tony Stark has no idea about the Cube, then yeah, it's very easy to believe. The Gamma villains were all volunteers for a government program- are you gonna say the FDR government in the MU was evil for the super soldier experiments?

Shield knows about the Cube they built it, the fact that Tony doesn't releive Sheild of resposiblity just Tony.

I wasn't talking about Gamma Force, though the people who created them should die slowly. I was talking about the Hulk foes tTony tested Spin on. I doubt they gave permission.

[qupote]The only people who hunt anti-regs full time are the Thunderbolts who have at least three mass murders. Shield has a mass murderer as deputy director[/quote]


Actually no, SHIELD doesn't. That aside, the Thunderbolts have yet to actually murder anyone as Thunderbolts.

Hill Helped with the Genocide attacks, gave the orders in Sheild to be prescise, She was the director of Sheiled and on site when the murders in NA#6 happened. She is a mass-murderer.




Um, no, not really. I mean, besides everything else, Amadeus Cho was very, VERY clearly in the wrong. The only reason he immediately suspected the worst is because he's a paranoid little idiot who makes wild assumptions with zero evidence to back them up.

When you are being hunted by kidnappers who have guns, and you have concusive evidence it's not paranoia, it common sense. He knew that Shield had a secret to hide,


Well, that's fine, because I'm sure Cho would have listened to him happily.

They didn't even try to reason with him they went right to force.



Not really. We've seen several people retire, we've seen no-one drafted out of retirement. The only thing to even vaguely indicate it's not clear was that Tony didn't fully know back in NA 22, before the law was finished. And remember, Wonder Man was ILLEGALLY extorted to join. So again we're back to square 1- Can you retire?- Yes. Do you have to join if you don't want to?- No. Simple.

He helped write the law if retirement was perment he would have know, otherwise why was he trying to enforce a law he hadn't read.




I disagree here, because it's the same principle as gun registration. It's not a case of freedom vs security, not really, more a case of common sense vs paranoia. I mean, one could try to argue that locking up MURDERERS is a violation of their rights- but one would be wrong. There are always exceptional circumstances, and saying "Everyone has the freedom to do anything" is just completely wrong.

Don't believe in Gun Control. Except hitting what you aim at. From the looks of the current the real world Supreme Court agrees with me. I have Guns and since I livei in a state with respect for the constitution of the US. I don't need to register them. Actually most States are like that.

Murderers lose their rights due to their own actions and the actions of the courts, Meta's under the SHRA lose their by accident or birth. Their existance bring some of them into a position where they lose rights without due process.

You have a right to mind your own business and, you have a right not to have to register your skill and abilities with any goverment agency. Even Black-belts don't have to register unless they make money with It then the are considered professional fights. My Son are both Black Belts and it is not the goverment business and the goverment has no right to make it Its business.

[jackolover]

It makes it extremely clear- in fact, when Reed spouts his "The law is the law" thing to Johnny, Johnny doesn't buy it and then Reed gives him a look to indicate that Johnny's right, that's not his real reason! And then Sue spells it out! It's also not "hiding" behind statistics- Sue thinks they have to overcome the odds, he knows they can't. It's heart vs brains. And as we've seen proven beyond a doubt, his calculations WERE correct. She knows he made the deciosion based on this, she says it later, she just doesn't WANT to accept it..

I didn't see Reed roll his eyes at anything Johnny said. I read it a plainly what Reed was stating. And Reed never agreed with Sues interpretation that it wasn't for his uncle. Reed never responded in the affirmative, that's why I can't see that anything clear cut was resolved in that issue as you see it. I didn't see it that way.

Um... no. Re-read the story- Reed had gone pretty mad due to what Doom had done to him and his story, the UN were threatening war on the Latverian people, and Reed's actions led to the death of Ben. I don't think you can say he was intimidated by the government even remotely- more like in utter shock over Ben's death. Plus, they were in the wrong in that circumstance and they knew it- there were no assets stripped from the FF, but people stopped trusting them- and I can't blame them, to be honest.

I haven't re-read the story, but doesn't Reeds assets get stripped because of this Latverian incident?

[jackolover]

What I can see with all this back and forth counter argumenta going on, is that post-CW has had a major affect on our propensity to dissect actions that happened during CW and the Initiative, to a much larger degree than before the CW.

I am almost suspecting that Skrull paranoia has instilled in readers a dichotomy of interest since about NA and Secret War. The ferocity of opinion around this time far outweighs the ferocity of opinion before the CW started, and I wonder how much of this is due to A/ Readers opinions splitting down the middle, or B/ manipulation from an unkown source that makes readers see things differently.

For example: I can't believe how readers have viewed the same sequences in a story, with two sets of completely different eyes. It's like Marvel have tapped into the two 'genders' of readers, as though there existed a 'Northern' sympathising group, and a 'Southern' sympathising group. All Marvel had to do was trip the right trigger, and factionalise the readers.

This never happened Pre-CW. You would never find readers arguing over points of law, civil right, application of laws, and the conjecture of whether a hero is bahaving in character, like we have in Post-CW. Pre-CW the readers were using a fairly commonplace supension of disbelief about all the heroes. Some were golden-good, some grey-good, and some outright black. But Post-CW the readers have had to actually define what these catagories are and why their characters fit into that catagory, and I never had to make that call before. At least not to this extent and for this length of duration.

[mikekerr3]

What I can see with all this back and forth counter argumenta going on, is that post-CW has had a major affect on our propensity to dissect actions that happened during CW and the Initiative, to a much larger degree than before the CW.

I am almost suspecting that Skrull paranoia has instilled in readers a dichotomy of interest since about NA and Secret War. The ferocity of opinion around this time far outweighs the ferocity of opinion before the CW started, and I wonder how much of this is due to A/ Readers opinions splitting down the middle, or B/ manipulation from an unkown source that makes readers see things differently.

For example: I can't believe how readers have viewed the same sequences in a story, with two sets of completely different eyes. It's like Marvel have tapped into the two 'genders' of readers, as though there existed a 'Northern' sympathising group, and a 'Southern' sympathising group. All Marvel had to do was trip the right trigger, and factionalise the readers.

This never happened Pre-CW. You would never find readers arguing over points of law, civil right, application of laws, and the conjecture of whether a hero is bahaving in character, like we have in Post-CW. Pre-CW the readers were using a fairly commonplace supension of disbelief about all the heroes. Some were golden-good, some grey-good, and some outright black. But Post-CW the readers have had to actually define what these catagories are and why their characters fit into that catagory, and I never had to make that call before. At least not to this extent and for this length of duration.

Its a matter of personal view points on thinks like human rights, freedom, security and the constitution. Those are all thing that people have been willing to die for in the real world. People have died by the thousands over these very things. The books are just a dim mirror shoowing us these things where they don't matter.

When the books are designed to attack the basic values that many of the readers hold "Holy" on both sides the reactions is predictable. It is worsened by the fact that so many actions, lilke Tony;s speech to Peter in 42m are not explained in the books. If you give Stark the benefit of the doubt (NEVER):biggrin: you see it one way. If you would rather Trust Peter Parker you se it another way.

Some people by nature will follow people like Stark, some People would rather Follow someone like Captain America.

Some thing are also meant as a "Nads Shot" to personal morals like The use of Capt Americas bodiy as bait, or speed balll being beaten by guards in prison. Some see these as unforgivably vile, Some see them as a necessary tactics. These things shows the basic world view of the reader and makes it nearly impossible to remain neutral.

I don;t think the people on the opposing sides of this would get along inreal life either, their views on what really important are to alien to each other. They would probaly be civil (with a few exceptions) but not have much in common in values. I personnal could no more support Starks actions than I could support turning the US communist and trashing the constitution. They are not I know the same thing but they are refective of my outlook on what is actually good and evil

Also there is the regrettable "Fanboy" worship of character. Some peoples favorites can do no wrong and the characters they don't like can do no good.

[jackolover]

Its a matter of personal view points on things like human rights, freedom, security and the constitution. Those are all things that people have been willing to die for in the real world. People have died by the thousands over these very things. The books are just a dim mirror showing us these things, where they don't matter.

When the books are designed to attack the basic values that many of the readers hold "Holy", on both sides, the reactions are predictable. It is worsened by the fact that so many actions, like Tony's speech to Peter in 42, are not explained in the books. If you give Stark the benefit of the doubt (NEVER):biggrin: you see it one way. If you would rather Trust Peter Parker, you see it another way.

Some people by nature will follow people like Stark, some People would rather Follow someone like Captain America.

Some thing are also meant as a "Nads Shot" to personal morals like The use of Capt Americas bodiy as bait, or speed balll being beaten by guards in prison. Some see these as unforgivably vile, Some see them as a necessary tactics. These things shows the basic world view of the reader and makes it nearly impossible to remain neutral.

I don;t think the people on the opposing sides of this would get along inreal life either, their views on what really important are to alien to each other. They would probably be civil (with a few exceptions) but not have much in common in values. I personnal could no more support Starks actions than I could support turning the US communist and trashing the constitution. They are not, I know, the same thing, but they are refective of my outlook on what is actually good and evil.

Also there is the regrettable "Fanboy" worship of character. Some peoples favorites can do no wrong and the characters they don't like can do no good.

All good points, mikekerr.

I do see my personal favorite characters in a certain light, and have my opinions on how those characters would behave in certain situations. My fanboy wants do saddle me with personal outcomes that I want, and I think a lot of readers wants have been tested sorely by how Marvel represents our take, on their characters. This has divided the reading community in ways I never saw coming. It's like there was this divide in what readers thought about the characters, and what Marvel thought about their characters. We weren't aware of that distinction, until Marvel threw it in our faces. Then, when all our assumptions were smashed, we had to reform the characters with this new information.

[mikekerr3]

All good points, mikekerr.

I do see my personal favorite characters in a certain light, and have my opinions on how those characters would behave in certain situations. My fanboy wants do saddle me with personal outcomes that I want, and I think a lot of readers wants have been tested sorely by how Marvel represents our take, on their characters. This has divided the reading community in ways I never saw coming. It's like there was this divide in what readers thought about the characters, and what Marvel thought about their characters. We weren't aware of that distinction, until Marvel threw it in our faces. Then, when all our assumptions were smashed, we had to reform the characters with this new information.

Some People didn;t even try to do anything but support their heros

[jackolover]

I had a reread of the books before Avengers Disassembled, and the stories were quite engaging, with ASM set around the Ezeckiel death, the FF becoming more light hearted after the Heaven visit to rescue Ben from Jack Kirby, and then be budds with Spiderman. Even after FFs Latveria escapade, the common people were saying to the FF they should be in jail, but it softened up after that. The Hulk was the most lively, with the Abomination and the Iron Man 4 parter. You tend to forget how much Bruce Jones held you with mystery. Thor called on Iron Man and Cap to help in Asgard, and the Avengers were lazing away in the Avalon 4 parter, in England. Iron Man was Secretary of State, and Cap was trying to find Winter Soldier.

All in all, the MU was in a pretty active state pre-CW, but there were cracks appearing, because Bruce Banner had nowhere to go, Tony was on the brink of monetary worries with the Gamma suit project, and the FF had started making people uneasy about super humans.

So when Avengers did Disassemble, Tony didn't have the money to recover and rebuild the Mansion, and disbanded the Avengers; Tony had no other resources to help Bruce and the Hulk because he was basically broke, so taking the easly way out by sending Hulk away was his only option, as tech wise he was out of funds.

And when Stamford happened, Reed Richards wasn't in any position to be resisting the SHRA, considering the poor state he had left the team in, and, the poor PR he gave the team because of Latveria. (Hank and Jan are Skrulls so they don't count).

So it seems to me that CW was brewing for a long time, because the set up of the heroes before hand, made CW just so convenient.

[Alan2099]

When the books are designed to attack the basic values that many of the readers hold "Holy" on both sides the reactions is predictable. It is worsened by the fact that so many actions, lilke Tony;s speech to Peter in 42m are not explained in the books. If you give Stark the benefit of the doubt (NEVER) you see it one way. If you would rather Trust Peter Parker you se it another way.
There are certain people that marvel has always treated as their moral centers. The people that always do what's right even if the other heroes don't. Thing, Spider-man, and Captain America are the three biggest ones. They were all anti-reg.

Mr. Fantastic, Ironman, and Hank Pym al have a history of letting their own private obcessions or compulsion take over their judgement completley. This has never been treated as a positive thing. These are the three people that heads of the Pro-Registration side.

I think it's rather telling in their choice of characters what side people should be listening to.

[mikekerr3]

There are certain people that marvel has always treated as their moral centers. The people that always do what's right even if the other heroes don't. Thing, Spider-man, and Captain America are the three biggest ones. They were all anti-reg.

Mr. Fantastic, Ironman, and Hank Pym al have a history of letting their own private obcessions or compulsion take over their judgement completley. This has never been treated as a positive thing. These are the three people that heads of the Pro-Registration side.

I think it's rather telling in their choice of characters what side people should be listening to.

Faced with incomplete evidence and in mortalm danger who would you trust to do the morally right thing, I can't think of any of the Pro-regs who would put morallity over pragmatism or math,

All of the leading anti-regs meet the descrpition

[Animalia]

Pre Civil War: Democracy
Post Civil War Dictatorship

'Nuff Said

[bulbasteve]

A dictatorship lead by WHO exactly?

I hope you don't mean the Tony Stark who is was slapped with a power nullifier and is standing before the U.N. currently with SHIELD totally grounded.

Which brings me to the Hill hate. Do we really know that just because they work for the U.N. that they can simply tell a member nation to shove it? Do we even know that the actions of attacking the dang MOON was not a U.N. action in one form or the other? (especially since the issues make plain they were forced to do it).

There is a lot of assumptions about the political system post-CW (or just in general with all the fictional agencies) without any real evidence supporting it.

[jackolover]

A dictatorship lead by WHO exactly?

I hope you don't mean the Tony Stark who is was slapped with a power nullifier and is standing before the U.N. currently with SHIELD totally grounded.

Which brings me to the Hill hate. Do we really know that just because they work for the U.N. that they can simply tell a member nation to shove it? Do we even know that the actions of attacking the dang MOON was not a U.N. action in one form or the other? (especially since the issues make plain they were forced to do it).

There is a lot of assumptions about the political system post-CW (or just in general with all the fictional agencies) without any real evidence supporting it.

Yeah, I agree that we have to make a lot of assumptions about the inclusion of UN in tthings like Silent War. But considering the Nuclear explosion ib Iron Man, Dugan and Hill were UN people, first, so when they were brought up before the commitee, was it a UN committee or a US Commitee? Because I don't think the UN are dragging them up before any commitees for any actions SHIELD has taken so far. This tells me that SHIELD and the UN are in complete accord on actions taken.

[Tobias Drake]

Pre Civil War: Democracy
Post Civil War Dictatorship

'Nuff Said

Yes, because a democratically elected congress of representatives instating laws built on the will of the people in their nation is certainly my definition of dictatorship!

...wait, a minute....

[bulbasteve]

Yeah, I agree that we have to make a lot of assumptions about the inclusion of UN in tthings like Silent War. But considering the Nuclear explosion ib Iron Man, Dugan and Hill were UN people, first, so when they were brought up before the commitee, was it a UN committee or a US Commitee? Because I don't think the UN are dragging them up before any commitees for any actions SHIELD has taken so far. This tells me that SHIELD and the UN are in complete accord on actions taken.

I assume you are asking because you have decided to use examples from books you don't actually read (a much bigger assumption than reading a book and having a different take...).

Because you know, MU-Wolf Blitzer actually freakin says EXACTLY what it is. It is a join session of the U.N. general assembly and the U.S. CSA (it even takes place in the actual U.N!). So you know I hardly think being brought up on charges of terrorism in being in complete accord.

Read Iron Man people!

[Kage Kisaragi]

replying only to the title yes.

"Fun!"

[psm]

By pre-Civil War I'm assuming you mean from the 1980's to the mid 2000's because honestly I see more in common with the 70's and 60's now than I did in the past two decades.

Either way I find it more fun now.

[jackolover]

I assume you are asking because you have decided to use examples from books you don't actually read (a much bigger assumption than reading a book and having a different take...).

Because you know, MU-Wolf Blitzer actually freakin says EXACTLY what it is. It is a joint session of the U.N. general assembly and the U.S. CSA (it even takes place in the actual U.N!). So you know I hardly think being brought up on charges of terrorism in being in complete accord.

Read Iron Man people!

Well, I did read Iron Man but, I missed that it was a joint UN/CSA session. However, despite this being the case, this is the first time the UN have dragged Tony, Dugan, or Hill up to face Silent War, Camp Hammond, TBolts, Doom/Latveria, so from that standpoint, yes I assume all the questionable incidents involving those situations have been in accord with the UN.

[Magneto Rocks]

Yes, because a democratically elected congress of representatives instating laws built on the will of the people in their nation is certainly my definition of dictatorship!

...wait, a minute....

...If my signature wasn't already full, this would be going in it. :tongue: Damn well said.

[StoneGold]

Pre Civil War: Democracy
Post Civil War Dictatorship

'Nuff Said

I think I have some better poly sci terms: anarchy vs. bureaucracy.

[DeadXMan]

Pre Civil War: Democracy
Post Civil War Dictatorship

'Nuff Said

Pre CW: mundane
Post CW: Interesting

[Alan2099]

Pre CW: mundane
Post CW: Interesting

I think you got that backwards.

[Baron Banter]

Marvel titles I read in the years prior to Civil War:

Captain America
Moon Knight - I was considering cutting this long before Civil War so...
Incredible Hulk
Fantastic Four
Avengers
Iron Man - Like MK, this was on the bubble
Punisher - I grew tired of this series.
Ultimate Spider-man

Titles I read post Civil War
Ultimate Spider-man
Amazing Spider-man - which I had dropped three issues into JMS run and waited patiently for his retirement.

And then Spider-girl trades

I'd describe the Pre-Civil War as actually fun to read and the post-Civil War to be worthless.

Although I am considering readding Hulk. Depends on how I like the Roger Stern one-shot.

[jackolover]

There does seem to be a split between what was interesting and what was mundane before and after CW.

So what makes the pre-CW stuff more interesting than after?

And conversely, what makes post-CW more interesing than before?

For me, I stopped reading Marvel, before CW, because the stories had a sameness about them that I wasn't willing to read, ad infinitum.

When CW hit, and there was this idea that heroes were not appreciated anymore, it put a whole other perspective on the stories. When I began to get the tie-ins, they all reflected this patchy pro-hero, anti-hero stance, so that the run of the mill stories, changed into, I -have -no -idea -what -is -going -to -happen -next. Compelling, was now the norm, and what came before was just trite. I think the MA fight with Ultron has been the only pre-CW type of fight I've noticed in the books I get.

What are your thoughts?

[alexr]

I'd use the words 'fun' and 'coherrent'.

Now, it's kind of a mess. I don't know who people are anymore. Plus, when there was an event (even if it wasn't that good) they tried their best. After CW I was down to X-Men and the INcredible Hulk... and the Hulk's on vacation.

I think the company is a big mess right now. How many things have... certain people made at the company about things that never came out or they just quit?

Examples: Ultimate Wolverine/Hulk, J Scott Campbell's big project that no longer interests me, delay after delays for such things as the Red Hulk, CW itself which delayed every title connected to it.

CW was developed by people who apparently had no real idea what to do with it. As writers/ editors they should do stuff they know they can't pull off. I really don't see the genuine enthusiasm as I used to coming from.... certain people at the company. Others act like it's the best job they've ever had and they actually seem to believe it. But what's the potential in a team for every state and no more mutants? I just don't get some of these bizarre ideas.

Well, despite NMM, I think X-Men is still a great book. Come back soon, Green/Grey Hulk.

[bulbasteve]

I think I have some better poly sci terms: anarchy vs. bureaucracy.

Tony even makes a speech about red tape in the next issue...seriously!

[psm]

I think another difference between pre and post CW is the audience focus. Although this might be more of a pre and post Joe Q event. It could even be do to the rise of the book market and stagnation of the direct market which could be why the MarvelU is beginning to look like the newsstand years.

Still it seems that the stories are geared more to a newer mainstream audience while previously it was geared for more hard core traditional fan base. At least thats how I see.

[Monty_Cristo]

wild wild west is how it has been described in the past. sounds appropriate to me.

[mikekerr3]

wild wild west is how it has been described in the past. sounds appropriate to me.

Sounds about right for the past.

Huxleys "Iron Boot stamping on the face of humanity forever' fits with the direction they are heading post civil war. or the title of Skinners book "beyond freedom and dignity" apply to the post CW war. All is sacraficed to govermental power and corruption.

[Monty_Cristo]

Sounds about right for the past.

Huxleys "Iron Boot stamping on the face of humanity forever' fits with the direction they are heading post civil war. or the title of Skinners book "beyond freedom and dignity" apply to the post CW war. All is sacraficed to govermental power and corruption.

seems to me like the government has very little control. for instance, they have no idea what's going on behind the Camp Hammond gates. they don't seem all that aware of what SHIELD or the skrulls are doing either. don't mistake SHIELD for the government. they are their own miniature superpower. and, as always, the Marvel Universe is just an extreme version of our own reality.

[Brian "Vash" Ashby]

anyone say "better" yet?

[mikekerr3]

seems to me like the government has very little control. for instance, they have no idea what's going on behind the Camp Hammond gates. they don't seem all that aware of what SHIELD or the skrulls are doing either. don't mistake SHIELD for the government. they are their own miniature superpower. and, as always, the Marvel Universe is just an extreme version of our own reality.

ONE works for the goverment, the leader of ONE that was appointed by the Goverment (Lazar) was a psychopathic bigot and murderer, none of his troops stopped him so they've are all as guilty. One tortures POWs in military facilities.

The Government passed the MRA, planned Wideawake and built Sentinels with genocide in mind.

The CSA is run by the goverment employees the scum-bag Gyrich, and has a team the psychopathic mass murderer Osborn. The thunderbolts hold people without trial in thunderbolt mountain

The mass-murder Hill was chosen by the US president and remains in substantial power in Shield after committing mass murder of innocents.

The US president ordered Shield to nuke Genosha

In the Black Panther series the White house has people being told to look for a excuse for war with Wakanda.

The US goverment sent suicide bombers to commit genocide when their plans to keep stolen property were foiled. An the Inhumans tried to recover thier property


Any goverment that does things like this SO DAMN OFTEN is evil. the old occasional thing of someone misusing their power is gone, replaced by systematic evil reaching to the very top.

Any goverment that believes it can restrict the rights of any individuals without due process, can't be trusted to give due process to any individual.

I think that they have gone past a extreme version of our world to an evil dystopia. Supporting the goverment shown is supporting evil.

I believe that Shield is no worse that the MU goverment, but thats not saying very much.

[Alan2099]

I believe that Shield is no worse that the MU goverment, but thats not saying very much.
Current SHIELD, I'd agree with, but under Nick Fury it always seemed to have a bit of honor to it, if for no other reason than that Nick Fury himself would beat the tar out of anybody that didn't.

[mikekerr3]

Current SHIELD, I'd agree with, but under Nick Fury it always seemed to have a bit of honor to it, if for no other reason than that Nick Fury himself would beat the tar out of anybody that didn't.

God I want him back from limbo if only to see what stuff Maria Hill has been doing . I think his first reaction would be to drop her off the Helicarrier like She-hulk but without bothering to land first.

Fury fought dirty but never resorted to the methods of those he fought against as a SGT.

[Monty_Cristo]

ONE works for the goverment, the leader of ONE that was appointed by the Goverment (Lazar) was a psychopathic bigot and murderer, none of his troops stopped him so they've are all as guilty. One tortures POWs in military facilities.

that's a real stretch dude. his troops didn't know what Lazar was doing. and Val Cooper was actively trying to take him down during that mini. and if you're going to count Lazar as an example of governmental evil then you have to accept that most of the O.N.E were good people (ex. Colonel Miguel Reyes).


The Government passed the MRA, planned Wideawake and built Sentinels with genocide in mind.

yet no mutant genocide has taken place. could it be that the Sentinels are just a necessary evil?

The US president ordered Shield to nuke Genosha


he's probably a skrull

[StoneGold]

Current SHIELD, I'd agree with, but under Nick Fury it always seemed to have a bit of honor to it, if for no other reason than that Nick Fury himself would beat the tar out of anybody that didn't.

Nah, SHIELD was always getting corrupted from within. Like every other plotline.

[Alan2099]

Nah, SHIELD was always getting corrupted from within. Like every other plotline.

Even so, with Fury around you had a group you could always trust to do the right thing, and a leader they could look up to. Right now, SHIELD's leadership are the corrupted people.

I always liked Fury. When written well, he was a nice blend of James Bond, super hero, and soldier. You might not always like the guy, but you could trust him the majority of the time.

[mikekerr3]

that's a real stretch dude. his troops didn't know what Lazar was doing. and Val Cooper was actively trying to take him down during that mini. and if you're going to count Lazar as an example of governmental evil then you have to accept that most of the O.N.E were good people (ex. Colonel Miguel Reyes)./QUOTE]

He inserted the monitoring chips and kept the mutants confined in the mmansion by himself? That is quite a stretch there/



[QUOTE=Monty_Cristo;6697219]
yet no mutant genocide has taken place. could it be that the Sentinels are just a necessary evil?/QUOTE]

Please tell me what is necessary about the Sentinals, The fact that no Genocide has taken place is due to the X-men not the govermetn


[QUOTE=Monty_Cristo;6697219]
he's probably a skrull

Nobody is screaming to the press about the homicidal maniac in the white house though, they would have to be supporting the evil. No congressional hearings, no impeachment. I don't think he's a Skrull, just a bigot. Marvels not gitsy enough top go there.

[Monty_Cristo]

You: He inserted the monitoring chips and kept the mutants confined in the mmansion by himself? That is quite a stretch there/

Me: they were in the mansion for their own safety and because Decimation created an emergency situation. the chips proved to be necessary during the mall field trip. you act like they were being tortured or something.

You: Please tell me what is necessary about the Sentinals, The fact that no Genocide has taken place is due to the X-men not the govermetn

Me: the Sentinels exist for the same reason nuclear warheads exist. they are precautionary. anti-human groups have made it known that mutants and humans are at war. what would you have the humans do; let themselves be slaughtered?


You: Nobody is screaming to the press about the homicidal maniac in the white house though, they would have to be supporting the evil. No congressional hearings, no impeachment. I don't think he's a Skrull, just a bigot. Marvels not gitsy enough top go there.

Me: screaming to the press hasn't gotten Bush impeached. and what makes you think that skrulls haven't infiltrated the press?

[Monty_Cristo]

Even so, with Fury around you had a group you could always trust to do the right thing, and a leader they could look up to. Right now, SHIELD's leadership are the corrupted people.

I always liked Fury. When written well, he was a nice blend of James Bond, super hero, and soldier. You might not always like the guy, but you could trust him the majority of the time.

Fury led a group of superhumans to Latveria to overthrow the government. he then tried to arrest Reed Richards for doing the same thing.

[mikekerr3]

You: He inserted the monitoring chips and kept the mutants confined in the mansion by himself? That is quite a stretch there/

Me: they were in the mansion for their own safety and because Decimation created an emergency situation. the chips proved to be necessary during the mall field trip. you act like they were being tortured or something.


W hat happened when they tried to remove the chips

The chips were not necessary and what right does the goverment have to lock people up with armed killing machines for there own safety. The primary effect on the mutants was to make them easier targets


You: Please tell me what is necessary about the Sentinals, The fact that no Genocide has taken place is due to the X-men not the government

Me: the Sentinels exist for the same reason nuclear warheads exist. they are precautionary. anti-human groups have made it known that mutants and humans are at war. what would you have the humans do; let themselves be slaughtered?

Nuclear weapons are not used on a regular basis to murder people, the Sentinals try pretty often, to people who are not acting as a threat. they just aren't very good at it.


You: Nobody is screaming to the press about the homicidal maniac in the white house though, they would have to be supporting the evil. No congressional hearings, no impeachment. I don't think he's a Skrull, just a bigot. Marvels not gitsy enough top go there.

Me: screaming to the press hasn't gotten Bush impeached. and what makes you think that skrulls haven't infiltrated the press?

The whole press, the whole government? now you are sounding paranoid. If the Skrull infiltrated two huge sections of the country so completely we have already lost

I think Bush is perhaps our fourth worst president or fifth, but nothing he has done has been anywhere near this bad, we haven't had a genocidal president since Jackson.

[Monty_Cristo]

The whole press, the whole government? now you are sounding paranoid. If the Skrull infiltrated two huge sections of the country so completely we have already lost

dude. that's what an invasion is. given how important the press and government are, you don't think the skrulls might have tried to infiltrate these organizations, first?

[mikekerr3]

dude. that's what an invasion is. given how important the press and government are, you don't think the skrulls might have tried to infiltrate these organizations, first?

But your scenario would require that the press alone would have to be completley Skrull and most of the goverment. Some infiltration is probale complete control no.

[The Black Guardian]

dude. that's what an invasion is. given how important the press and government are, you don't think the skrulls might have tried to infiltrate these organizations, first?
For all we know, they have. They've infiltrated SHIELD, Hydra, the Hand, AIM, the Initiative. The governments and the press should be cakewalks.

[mikekerr3]

For all we know, they have. They've infiltrated SHIELD, Hydra, the Hand, AIM, the Initiative. The governments and the press should be cakewalks.

Not hard to do but so many bodies are required, the logistics of that are my puzzlement. :confused:

They probably have the military brass as well, hope so I like see generals creamed in books.:biggrin:

[Monty_Cristo]

But your scenario would require that the press alone would have to be completley Skrull and most of the goverment. Some infiltration is probale complete control no.

all of FOX news could be skrulls right now and no one would be the wiser.

[DeadXMan]

one of the editors in the DB is a skrull.
Unless Dexter fired him when he took over.

[DeadXMan]

all of FOX news could be skrulls right now and no one would be the wiser.

or MSNBC nobody watches it.
CNN it would explan why Larry is still alive

[Expletive Deleted]

CNN it would explan why Larry is still aliveOh, please.

He's obviously an android.

[Monty_Cristo]

Oh, please.

He's obviously an android.

i was under the impression that most androids are good dancers. Larry King can't dance. there's video evidence out there.

[Expletive Deleted]

i was under the impression that most androids are good dancers. Larry King can't dance. there's video evidence out there.You're thinking of synthezoids. Androids couldn't find the beat if you programmed it into them.

[Alan2099]

I think Larry King falls into the category with keith Richards where they're only technically considered alive.

[mikekerr3]

all of FOX news could be skrulls right now and no one would be the wiser.

They aren't now?

[The Black Guardian]

Not hard to do but so many bodies are required, the logistics of that are my puzzlement. :confused:
Replace a few of the right people and the rest will fall in line.