Marvel Physics and Metaphysics

[Pro]

Marvel Physics and Metaphysics is where we can discuss various concepts related to the marvel universe from universal forces such as Eternity and Infinity to time paradoxes and the existence of a supreme being. Please use examples and established storylines whenever possible.
I'll post regularly new subjects to discuss.

So let's start with the first subject and make it a tough one:

Time travel and alternate timelines

Some points to start off the discussion:

*How exactly does it work in the marvel universe?
*Does time travel always create alternate timelines?
*If so how was Legion able to alter time and cause all of creation to rewind?
*How is it Cable was able to change his future which was part of his past by altering the present without erasing his own history?
*Are there two different forms of timetravel, one resulting in timeparadoxes and one resulting in alternate timelines?
*Quantum physics holds that there are possibly an infinite number of alternate timelines. Is this the same for the marvel multiverse or are there a limited number of timelines?

[Joe Acro]

*How exactly does it work in the marvel universe?
I refer you to a post I made the other day:

Marvel time travel usually works in one of three following ways:

1) What you do in the past is historically what happened. The FF traveling back in time, interfering with the Rama Tut. Blade traveling back into the past and helping Doom's mother. Those are just the first examples I can think of.

2) You are flung into an alternate reality's past and cause it's history to be different. Days of Future Past is the prime (and possible initiating) example.

3) What you do changes history. Adam Warlock defeating the Magus (the first time) and the Age of Apocalypse (originally) followed this concept.

The only example of time travel I can think of that does not adequately suit any of those categories is Spider-Man traveling through time in the "Happy Birthday" arc.

*Does time travel always create alternate timelines?No, as evidenced above.

*If so how was Legion able to alter time and cause all of creation to rewind?To me knowledge, it has since been retconned that he formed an alternate reality (given that that Earth now has a designation).

*How is it Cable was able to change his future which was part of his past by altering the present without erasing his own history?As we've seen, he didn't rid the world of Apocalypse. Considering that his future hasn't been seen since that Cable story (to my knowledge) we can assume he didn't change that future. Him changing it wouldn't make sense anyway, considering it's an alternate reality.


*Are there two different forms of timetravel, one resulting in timeparadoxes and one resulting in alternate timelines?See above.

*Quantum physics holds that there are possibly an infinite number of alternate timelines. Is this the same for the marvel multiverse or are there a limited number of timelines?Within the Multiverse there are a limited number of timelines. Within the Omniverse, there are an infinite number.

[Pro]

Within the Multiverse there are a limited number of timelines. Within the Omniverse, there are an infinite number.

Often the two terms are used to indicate the same thing. What's the exact difference?

To me knowledge, it has since been retconned that he formed an alternate reality (given that that Earth now has a designation).

Only because the Jean of AOA timeline managed to make it an alternative timeline before it disappeared. ifnot for her intervention it would have vanished.

Marvel time travel usually works in one of three following ways:

Trouble is what defines what kind of timetravel you're dealing with? There doesn't seem to be a constant factor. In either of the three instances someone travels back in time and they change something but what they change doesn't seem to differentiate whether they truly alter time or create an alternate timeline. So would it be the technology/power involved in traveling back that defines whether the change is actually creating an alternate timeline or changes history of earth 616?

It's also interesting to note that time travelers who do manage to create an alternate timeline apparently find themselves back in the earth 616 timeline rather than the alternate timeline's past. Or would those travelers actually end up in an alternate timeline similar to the earth 616 timeline whereas the ones who appear to return are actually alternate variants who end up in the earth 616 timeline after attempting to return to their own present? After all once one is in the future that becomes one's "present", so traveling back to your original present would constitute traveling back in time again.

[Expletive Deleted]

There haven't been any rules since Mark Gruenwald died.

[Pro]

Here's an illustration to depict the troubles with creating alternate timelines through timetravel.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k318/nightowlarts/timetrouble.jpg

I don't see why someone who creates an alternate timeline by changing the past would automatically travel back to his own timeline's present rather than the alternate present he has created by changing his past.

I also wonder if the alternate timeline created has an alternate past beyond the point where the two timelines branch off in different directions, in other words by altering something in 1963 will it also create an alternate 200 ad or do the two alternate timelines share the 200 ad history since they are not inherently different.

[Expletive Deleted]

I don't see why someone who creates an alternate timeline by changing the past would automatically travel back to his own timeline's present rather than the alternate present he has created by changing his past.Because then he'd never get back to the "real" MU. And that'd suck.I also wonder if the alternate timeline created has an alternate past beyond the point where the two timelines branch off in different directions, in other words by altering something in 1963 will it also create an alternate 200 ad or do the two alternate timelines share the 200 ad history since they are not inherently different.I could be mistaken, but I think the party line was always that it was a branching tree. Changes only propagates "forward" from the point of disturbance.

Except when they don't, of course.

[Joe Acro]

Often the two terms are used to indicate the same thing. What's the exact difference?A Multiverse is a collection of related universes. The Omniverse is the collection of all universes.

Trouble is what defines what kind of timetravel you're dealing with? There doesn't seem to be a constant factor. In either of the three instances someone travels back in time and they change something but what they change doesn't seem to differentiate whether they truly alter time or create an alternate timeline. So would it be the technology/power involved in traveling back that defines whether the change is actually creating an alternate timeline or changes history of earth 616?Clearly, you cannot restrict certain forms of time travel to certain things. Going by the AoA and Days of Future Past examples, mental time travel clearly works two different ways. Using Cable, we can see that machines do not always allow the user to go back to their own past, as Doom's and Reed's would have us think. Mystical time travel works in different ways, but that's probably due to a different spell being used.


I don't see why someone who creates an alternate timeline by changing the past would automatically travel back to his own timeline's present rather than the alternate present he has created by changing his past.I've always had a problem with that as well. These people should be traveling along the alternate timeline or, since it happened the first time, move to yet another timeline.

I also wonder if the alternate timeline created has an alternate past beyond the point where the two timelines branch off in different directions, in other words by altering something in 1963 will it also create an alternate 200 ad or do the two alternate timelines share the 200 ad history since they are not inherently different.As ED describes (and you yourself mention), it's a branching structure. Everything up to that point remains the same.

I have the theory that something, maybe the Time-Keepers, causes these anomalies, that to preserve time, certain people have to go certain places and do certain things. Think of it like the time the Time Trapper shoved the Legion from their own timestream to land in a pocket universe of his creation.

[Cthulhudrew]

I remember reading at the time of AoA that the Legion idea was that he was such a powerful mutant that he was singularly able to actually alter time the way he did, in direct contradiction of the established rules of time travel. It was specifically noted by someone at Marvel that that was what had happened, and why the AoA was such an unprecedented and eventful happening.

(Of course, it would have been more eventful had all Marvel titles at the time been affected, and not just the X-Verse, but that's another issue. :))

[RonnieThunderbolts]

Actually, there are usually unique circumstances needed to alter one's own timeline. In the case of Legion changing history it had not to do with his unique abilitites, but his use of the M'Krann Crystal, and its reality altering capabilities. Like Days of Future Past and the Guardians of the Galaxy altering their pasts, and making them into divergent realities, most of the Marvel history of timetravel began this way. These days they are more loose with the rules, and each case is more unique, with less need to justify it.

[Pro]

Topic 2:In the beginning ..

From what i gather there are several stories floating around that have to do with the beginning of the marvel universe.

We know Galactus was from a time before the big bang and that he came out the other side as a force of nature. What about the other conceptual being Eternity, Infinity, Phoenix? Have they always existed in the form they've taken now? Do we know exactly what collapsed Galactus' universe? Is there a supreme being responsible for ending one universe and recreating another? Was it just material substance that collapsed and then once more expanded, or did time and space cease to exist as well for a time? Did Infinity and Eternity die and were reborn when one universe ended and another reborn? What do we know about the universe before the one we've become familiar with? Did the big bang signal the start of multiple timelines branching out from that first beginning or is there a separate beginning for each timeline?

[Expletive Deleted]

Galactus's universe was a victim of the "Big Crunch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch)." As for the Phoenix Force . . . opinion is split.Was it just material substance that collapsed and then once more expanded, or did time and space cease to exist as well for a time?Space itself collapsed into an infinitesimal point. So, yes, the latter.

[Joe Acro]

We know Galactus was from a time before the big bang and that he came out the other side as a force of nature. What about the other conceptual being Eternity, Infinity, Phoenix?There was an Eternity. The Phoenix existed. It has not been revealed whether or not there was an Infinity.

Have they always existed in the form they've taken now?Galactus hasn't, Phoenix probably has (I lack visual confirmation, though), and we don't know what Eternity used to look like. We could assume it was the same or similar, but we don't know for sure.

Did Infinity and Eternity die and were reborn when one universe ended and another reborn?Eternity died and was reborn. If there was an Infinity, she/it would have undergone the same.

What do we know about the universe before the one we've become familiar with?This also helps with a few of your other questions:
The universe before the one known now was originally a Cosmic Egg, a sphere of disorganized, dense, and compact primordial matter. A Big Bang occurred, spreading the matter outwards. Eventually some of this matter condensed into planets and stars. One of these planets was named Taa, a world akin to a paradise. In its time, it was more advanced than any other planet. The Dweller-in-Darkness of that universe fractured the M'Kraan Crystal (The Nexus of All Realities) in order to cause the destruction of the universe and feast on the many peoples' related fears. The Phoenix Force, a universal force of life, used telepathy to reach all the minds of the universe and unite them in peace, denying the Dweller his feast and, thus, foiling his plan.

However, the destruction of the universe could not be stopped. As all matter began to contract into a new Cosmic Egg, located at the center of the universe, civilizations were being killed by resultant radiation. Taa was one of the last civilizations remaining. Galan, a space exploring humanoid from Taa, was sent to search the cosmos for a way to save his home planet. He failed in this quest. The radiation killed off all but a small portion of the population of Taa. Knowing their deaths were inevitable, the survivors followed Galan to a glorious death, charging a spaceship straight into the Cosmic Egg. As the ship approached the Egg, the crew members began dying. Galan was the only one not to die, instead becoming filled with a strange energy. The essence of the dying universe, a lonely omnipotent entity named Nemesis that was contained within the Cosmic Egg, preserved Galan and his ship through the tremendous gravitational forces and intense heat. Nemesis contacted Galan, informing him that they would both die, but would be reborn in the upcoming universe, with Galan becoming the world-devouring Galactus. In truth, Nemesis was committing suicide out of loneliness. Shortly thereafter, the Cosmic Egg absorbed the space-faring man from Taa into itself.

That is my interpretation of what has come before.

Did the big bang signal the start of multiple timelines branching out from that first beginning or is there a separate beginning for each timeline?Many realities have a similar start, as evidenced by the appearance of other Galacti. There's no telling if their universes were the "beginning" universes or not.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

Cool, I love this kind of threads :) I actually posted something I call my Theory of United Energy, which is my attempt to explain how different characters have different kinds of powers in the same universe(how there can by mutants, magicians, mutant magicians, scientists, mutant scientists, power cosmic, etc...). Here, I'll repost it for your reading pleasure, tell me what you think :)

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The other day, a friend of mine who doesn't read comics suddenly asked me "How the heck can they explain all that stuff that happens in comics? Like magic and technology and $H!+ existing at the same time? That's stupid!"

That got me thinking: yeah, how can all those elements co-exist in the same universe comfortably? I mean, yeah, suspension of disbelief and all that, but can we actually make sense of it?

I took the liberty of analyzing all this, and I came up with this theory for your reading enjoyment. I call it the Marvel Universe Theory of United Energy.

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THE MARVEL UNIVERSE THEORY OF UNITED ENERGY

This theory is an attempt at explaining the workings of the Marvel Universe and their characters, and how powers and abilities of such a disparate nature can co-exist. This theory is based on a sort of universal principle: energy. It's my opinion that every being in the Marvel Universe has a connection to the universe to a certain degree, and this connection gives them access to energy. I'm not talking about electricity, or heat, or other forms of measurable energy(although they are part of it), but of a more primordial substance, a sort of basic unit of energy from which all types derive. Each being in the Marvel Universe has a certain connection to this energy: just being a living being means you have this energy in you to a certain degree. This energy can be tapped into and manifested by everyone in the Marvel U, but different people have different degrees and nature of connection to this energy.

I will qualify the different connections to this energy in these categories: BODY, EXCEPTIONAL BODY, SCIENCE, MUTATION(natural and induced), INFUSION, MAGIC, and POWER COSMIC. Within these categories, I will identify the SOURCE of energy(where the energy being manipulated comes from), the MANIFESTATION(where this energy is evident/identifiable), and whether these are INTERNAL or EXTERNAL to the being wielding this energy. I shall also mention beings which manifest these types of energy. An internal source means that the energy that causes

-BODY
--Source: Internal
--Manifestation: Internal
--Examples: Everybody, although exceptional examples include Captain America, Daredevil, The Punisher
BODY refers to a being's actual physical substance. The body is the most inmediate form of tapping into the primordial energy, but also the most limited. This by no means indicates lack of power: Captain America, Daredevil and the Punisher, for example, have been capable of incredible things just by honing their bodies. This energy comes from within a being, it is completely his/hers. It IS an internal thing: as much or as little as one may eat, sleep and other factors(which are necessary for the body's functioning), it is one's own iniciative and effort which strengthen and speed up the body. It is both internal in source and manifestation: the average person does not have any outside signs of this energy in action unless he/she acts, and factors like health and strength are innate, only manifesting when acted upon.

-EXCEPTIONAL BODY
--Source: Internal
--Manifestation: Internal
--Examples: Asgardians, Olympians, Skrulls, Atlanteans, other alien races
EXCEPTIONAL BODY refers to beings who have abilities beyond regular humanity, but which are a natural occurrence amongst the race they belong to. In other words, they are born that way and their powers are(at least to them) perfectly normal. Thor, for example, is not tough because of any outside factor: his Asgardian genetics just make him naturally tough. Yes, he's an EXCEPTIONAL case amongst his race, but he is that way because of centuries of honing his body through training and warfare. Body-type beings can become Exceptional Body-types by evolution. However, this differs from Mutation in that it is a natural, gradual process, not a spontaneous one. Exceptional Body is also merely an extension of the body's natural energies. for example, a being of this type with high psionic abilities merely has a more developed brain to better manipulate mental energy. You're not gonna see this type of being turning a man into a jelly donut, for example, such type of drastic energy manipulation is the purview of more advanced, external disciplines.

-SCIENCE
--Source: External
--Manifestation: External
Examples: Mr. Fantastic, Iron Man, Hank Pym, Doctor Doom
SCIENCE refers to the use of technology for the manipulation of energy. After the human body, this is the most accesible way of tapping into energy, although it is by no means easy. Science has an incredible range of effect: it can be as simple as the chemical reaction of lighting a match or as dramatic and inmense as Galactus's Ultimate Nullifier. Science manipulates energies which are foreign to the being applying it. Let's take for example the Fantasticar: the car does not have any sort of source of energy from within it, it must use fuel of some kind to work. No matter how complex and powerful any technology is, it ultimately depends on outside energy for function. Manifestation is always external: Iron Man's suit is not a part of him(as much as people might like the analogy), for example. Even cyborgs have their technological additions ADDED to them, not springing from them. Science has certain limitations: it is limited by the innate laws of the universe and its dependent on matter. For example, Hank Pym does not spontaneously shrink size, it is the effect of a certain type of particle which has this effect on objects. An anti-gravity vehicle does not actually defy gravity, it just uses a type of energy which can opose it to eliminate its effect on said vehicle. As for the matter thing, it means that science must be actively investigated thoroughly for it to work. Defects in materials or calculations can result in catastrophic effects.

-MUTATION
--Source: Internal or external(depending on whether it's natural or induced)
--Manifestation: Internal or external
Examples: Mutants, Inhumans, Spider-Man, the Hulk
MUTATION is a change in a being's genetic code which enables him/her to manifest energy which is normally beyond the capability of the body. Mutational changes are exceptional: beings exhibit powers far beyond what the human body is normally capable of. An Internal Mutation being is a mutant: his/her body manifested a certain change in the genetic code that drastically grants him powers. External mutation is caused by an outside factor(a bite from a radioactive spider, or the explosion of a Gamma-bomb, for example). Manifestation can be both internal or external: Wolverine, the Hulk and Spider-Man's abilities come from their bodies and do not manifest outside of them. However, Storm and Magneto don't actually have any energy from within themselves, but have the ability to manipulate energy from without(athmospheric energy and magnetism, respectively). Mutation, as incredibly diverse and powerful as it might be, is still limited by the universe's laws. Using Storm and Magneto as an example again, Storm flies by manipulating air currents, while Magneto manipulates anti-gravitons: they both utilize energy around them to accomplish it, they don't actually break the universe's laws.

[DannyV_El_Acme]

INFUSION
--Source: External
--Manifestation: Internal or External
--Examples: The Fantastic Four, the Silver Surfer, the Juggernaut
INFUSION refers to the process of energy being forced into a being. This differs from Induced Mutation in that Mutation is just triggered by an outside force, while Infusion refers to actual energy being integrated into a being. Infusion, like Mutation, can be quite variable, depending on the kind and amount of energy infused into a being. The Fantastic Four, for example, have very diverse and impressive powers because of their infusion with cosmic radiation, but they are nowhere near the practically godlike Silver Surfer, who had an infusion of Power Cosmic from Galactus, arguably the Marvel Universe's most powerful being. The Juggernaut may be incredibly strong and unstoppable, but it is not actually him, but the energy infused into him by the Jewel of Cyttorak. This is an example of an infusion of mystic energy.

MAGIC
--Source: External
--Manifestation: Internal or External
--Examples: Thor, Loki, Doctor Strange, Dormammu
MAGIC refers to the manipulation of energy through mystic means. Magic can be compared to Science in that they are both fields of study with the purpose of manipulation of energy. However, their approaches could not be further from each other: while Science uses the universe's laws for great effects, Magic DEFIES those laws. One could think of Magic as a way of "fooling" the universe to desired effects. Example: a scientist(let's say Mr. Fantastic) and a mystic(let's say Doctor Strange) are both trying to turn a man into a jelly donut(bear with me, it's just an example!). Mr. Fantastic would create a machine which rearranges the man's matter into that of a jelly donut. This, as exceptional as it may be, is still within the realm of possibility according to the universe's laws. Doctor Starnge waves his hands and chants a spell and achieves the same effect, but he doesn't actually rearrange the man's matter to become a jelly donut, he actually TRANSFORMS him into one. He basically tells the universe "Hey, this is not a man, it's a jelly donut" and the universe goes "Oh yeah? Well, I'd better make him appear like one, then." Magic is(along with Power Cosmic, q.v.) the field of energy manipulation that can actually achieve effects blatantly warping the laws of reality. This also makes Magic probably the most DANGEROUS way of manipulating energy. the universe does NOT like being played with, so magical practicioners have to be very careful.

-POWER COSMIC
--Source: Special
--Manifestation: Special
--Examples: Galactus, the Beyonder, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, Death
POWER COSMIC is the penultimate form of energy manipulation, and it literally defies classification. Power Cosmic can be considered energy itself. While all other ways of manipulating energy depend on many limiting factors, Cosmic beings have no such limits because they ARE such energy. Cosmic beings are NOT accidental: they did not achieve their powers by some freak ocurrence. They possess their powers because they are essential to the functions of the universe, and as such, the universe is subordinate to them. They are synonymous with their power. For example, the Living Tribunal cannot be said to ever have earned his power, he just IS. Death has always been around, and will always be around.

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Of course, it is not possible to categorize all beings in the Marvel U into these categories, because there are characters who show different ways of energy manipulation to certain degrees. For example, Thor shows Exceptional Body and Magic. Spider-Man and the Hulk are both Mutations induced by Science(an irradiated spider and a Gamma-bomb). The Scarlet Witch is a Mutant whose particular genetic variation permits her to manipulate energy through Magical means easier. Hell, Jean Grey is an example of a Mutation ,who also has been Infused with psionic energy by the Phoenix, a Cosmic Being!

However, without trying to brag, I think my theory is pretty sound. What do you guys think? Are there any more categories I should consider or that I've overlooked? Any modifications to my theory you can suggest? I'd love to hear your opinions!

[DannyV_El_Acme]

There was an Eternity. The Phoenix existed. It has not been revealed whether or not there was an Infinity.

Galactus hasn't, Phoenix probably has (I lack visual confirmation, though), and we don't know what Eternity used to look like. We could assume it was the same or similar, but we don't know for sure.

Eternity died and was reborn. If there was an Infinity, she/it would have undergone the same.

This also helps with a few of your other questions:


That is my interpretation of what has come before.

Many realities have a similar start, as evidenced by the appearance of other Galacti. There's no telling if their universes were the "beginning" universes or not.

To my knowledge, Eternity and Infinity are sort of mirror beings that always exist in tandem. Eternity represents never-ending time and Infinity represents never-ending space. Death and Oblivion are similar in this way too: Death represents the end of living beings, while Oblivion represents the end of material things. Galactus is a sort of middleman, a balancing force. An analogy could be made using Hinduist belief: Eternity/Infinity are analogous to Brahma The Creator, Death/Oblivion are analogous to Shiva The Destroyer, and Galactus is analogous to Shiva The Sustainer.

[Joe Acro]

To my knowledge, Eternity and Infinity are sort of mirror beings that always exist in tandem. Eternity represents never-ending time and Infinity represents never-ending space. Death and Oblivion are similar in this way too: Death represents the end of living beings, while Oblivion represents the end of material things. Galactus is a sort of middleman, a balancing force. An analogy could be made using Hinduist belief: Eternity/Infinity are analogous to Brahma The Creator, Death/Oblivion are analogous to Shiva The Destroyer, and Galactus is analogous to Shiva The Sustainer.
Oh, I fully understand that that's how things work now. But we don't know for sure that either Eternity or Infinity were part of Galactus's universe. We have inserted an Eternity that fills the role "the essence of the universe" in the tale. Perhaps Infinity is somehow a part of that, too.

[Expletive Deleted]

It's worth noting that there's not one unique and canonical "Big Bang" story. You've got Sise-Neg, Reed Richards, the Phoenix Force, Nemesis, and probably a couple of other characters and entities taking retroactive credit for it. Not to mention the possibility of good ol' non-comic book physics.

We know there was a universe before this one. We know there was a Big Bang. Everything else . . .