Marvel time explained

[Gnarl]

<The scene: Dr. Stranges sanctum. Strange is sitting at a large table with sigils inscribed in the surface. A number of half-seen entities are just getting up to leave. Several are disturbingly similar to mighty entities of magic and mythic gods.
One is a smaller form, sheated in white light, dimming slightly to reveal the features of a young boy>

Strange: And thank you all for coming...especially our new guest Mr. Richards

The boy (astonished) Mr. Richards!?

Strange: It is your name, well, Franklin if you prefer. Wait for a moment, if you would.

<The other beings leave>

Strange: So, ah, Franklin, it is your birthday soon?

Franklin: Yeah! Are you coming to my party? There are these cool new toys, and I want...

Strange. Yes...yes...how old will you be this time?

Franklin (Suddenly less animated) ...six.

Strange: um, yes, about that...how many sixth birthdays does that make? thirthysomething...

Franklin (corona of light reddens and darkens) I like six.

Strange: (Flinches back) Yes, yes, nothing wrong with six...It was quite good as I recall...

Franklin: (Brightening) Yes, and there are all sorts of cool toys you didn't have on the farm in '36...dad is making my playstation even better! Just wait 'll Alex sees it!

Strange: Yes...your dad is the smartest man in the world, isn't he?

Franklin: (Distracted) You bet!

Strange: And so it becomes...But the age thing...(miserable) see...the others asked me to speak to you about it...don't you think you should try another one? There are things to be said for other ages...

Franklin: (Interrupts) You mean sex? Ew! Dis-gusting!

Strange: Well...the place is getting confusing, you see...Peter has been a young man since the Vietnam War...and...

Franklin: Hey, I let him have a degree, right? And get married. To a supermodel. I don't mind that he likes that stuff, unca Johnny does too.

Strange: Yes...your uncle Johnny was married for a while too, wasn't he? They don't seem to recall that much...

Franklin: It didn't work out. He didn't play with me as much after he got married.

Strange: But...Stark was an industrialist during the Vietnam war...your dad fought in world war 2...they are almost the same age with Peter and that Cannonball fellow...

Franklin: Do you really think they would prefer their chronological age?

Strange: Well...and your friends? The Powers? Do they get to try other ages? Get degrees?

Franklin: No. Not ever. My friends stay with me. Forever. This is my world, magican. No-one grows old on Åsgard or Olympus. They fight the Jotuns and titans forever and the good guys never lose. Why should my world be different?

[The Shadow]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much reading.

Can I get the Coles Notes version?

[MAK15]

so, what?
is this a 'Twilight Zone' thread?

[Shellhead]

Creepy and funny, and exactly what Marvel should have done instead of House of M, if they had the courage to directly face their aging problem.

[lawman]

Creepy and funny...
Indeed. :) And if you look back, you know, Marvel did seem to be using more-or-less real time right up until around when Franklin was born!...

[Omega Alpha]

Creepy and funny, and exactly what Marvel should have done instead of House of M, if they had the courage to directly face their aging problem.

I don't think there's too much of a problem. See for example Carey's X-men: from his start in #188 to the last issue (#197), there were 10 issues, but only a couple of days at best have passed; in the other hand, Bendis had a one year passage of time in Daredevil from one issue to the other, so it's impossible to have the characters aging as fast as in the real world. And they shouldn't, who wants to read about 80 year old Peter Parker? I think Marvel aging in general, except for some inconsistencies, is fine.

But they have to estabilish an age for Franklin Richards; i mean, he should be 11 or something, but sometimes is written and drawn as he was 6, then as 8, sometimes as 10, and then again to being 8, etc. He's the reason why Marvel doesn't like kids.

[HeckBoy]

The biggest problem with Marvel has been that sliding time line. What happens to all those characters who have military backgrounds in another 20 years? I mean, they've yet to adjust the Punisher's background in Vietnam as it is.

Personally, I would not mind, as long as it's within reason, if they just glanced over some stuff like how certain character's ages relate to each other. You know, allow Franklin to age a bit maybe into his early-mid teens without really mentioning just how old Reed and Susan have gotten. Kinda like a version of DC's Hypertime that allowed for the Robins and other sidekicks to grow up without their mentors being noticeably aged. There's already enough suspension of disbelief, but as long as they do it tactfully, I don't see why they can't do something about some character's ages.

[Brad Barton]

Okay, I figured I'd have some fun with this, my take on a few of Marvels Icons, and what they'd be like if they aged in real time:

Cap: Seems to be the only Marvel Hero who DID age regularly. (In Bendis' "The Confession", Cap tells a young soldier he's 85, putting his b-day around 1922, putting him in WWII with the Buckster fighting those whacky Nazi's at around age 22-23, so that all figures up right.).....BUT, we all know how Cap's story ended......NEXT!

Spidey: Assuming Pete was 15 when he got bit in 1962 (which we've all heard like a million times), that would put his b-day around 1947, which would mean today he'd be exactly 60 years old, well into his golden years and even eligible for the Senior discount at Denny's (lucky bastard). He'd probably have a house witha picket fence, a huge Winnebago in the driveway, living off his 401k from the Bugle. OH yeah, and he'd probably have about 25 little red-headed grandkids, all hopping around and climbing on the walls and webbing the cat to the ceiling

Hulk: Would still just be Hulk. Of course Banner would be in pretty bad shape, at about 70 years old (assuming banner was about 25 when he got blown up, that would put if B-day around 1937.)...and that 70 HARD years of livin', believe me bud....but seriously, if you wanna see how Banner/Hulk would age, just check out Hulk-The End, it tells it far better than I ever could.

Wolverine: Well, we all now know that James was born in the late 1800's, and was a rich, canadian dandy-boy....course he's a bad ass now at around 100-110 years old. But Marvel have sort of found a way around Wolvie aging, gotta give em credit though, our grandkids' grandkids' grandkids will probably be reading Civil War 18, starring Wolverine.

So I dunno, maybe they just have the characters stay the same age for the same reason Bart and Lisa simpson have been the same age for 18 years....those are the characters they merchandised, and those are the characters that sell.

Not to mention what would happen to Power Girl once she turned about 55, and *ahem* gravity started to make it's prescence known, ya know what I mean? ;)

[Ogrebear]

An example of a world where the Marvel Heroes aged in real time is from an Fantastic Four annual in 1998: Earth 1961 (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/earth1961.htm)
Its an interesting world. Love to see who the young heroes are... possibly something like the MC2 Universe?

Claremont is also doing a 'what if the Heroes had aged in real time' series called GeNext sometime next yr now. Some data here (http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Genext/claremont.htm)
and discussion here (http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221065)

[Omega Alpha]

The biggest problem with Marvel has been that sliding time line. What happens to all those characters who have military backgrounds in another 20 years? I mean, they've yet to adjust the Punisher's background in Vietnam as it is.

Change to another war, i mean, it's not like USA are not in one every 15 years or sometimes less. Tony's was changed to Gulf, Xavier to Vietnam, etc. As for the ones that can't change, like Cap. America and Magneto, there's explanations to why they're still around.


Not to mention what would happen to Power Girl once she turned about 55, and *ahem* gravity started to make it's prescence known, ya know what I mean?;)

That would make DC lose millions of dolllars, and many fanboys to lose a smile on their faces. :)

[HeckBoy]

Change to another war, i mean, it's not like USA are not in one every 15 years or sometimes less. Tony's was changed to Gulf, Xavier to Vietnam, etc. As for the ones that can't change, like Cap. America and Magneto, there's explanations to why they're still around.


Did they really change Tony and Xavier in continuity? or was it like something from the editors? Because I must've missed that. Do you know when they changed it?

[phantom1592]

The best answer to solve ALL the problems... well most of them anyways.... is to STOP putting these things in the "Real" war. MAKE up the name of a country that is "vietnamish" for Punisher to have fought in.... WWII is too classic so just ignore the "other" people besides Cap, bucky and Fury who were there. Same with Korea or the Gulf wars.

DC is a little better than Marvel at that. They have a BUNCH of fictional countries that America can be at war with... without outright alienating the opposing country.

Stop putting DATES in the books. Phrases like "Don't be stupid, this is 1974 after all...." Really date the books.

STOP putting REAL presidents in the books. So far Cap has been meeting every president since Kennedy through Bush II, and then they expect it to all blur within 10 years.

This is a FICTIONAL world Elect a President Smith and leave him there indefinetly Make him as nondescript as a mayor in new york or Gotham. HE'S not the star.

How many of these stories are hinged entirely around "who" was president. Who will care in 10 years?

[Omega Alpha]

The best answer to solve ALL the problems... well most of them anyways.... is to STOP putting these things in the "Real" war. MAKE up the name of a country that is "vietnamish" for Punisher to have fought in.... WWII is too classic so just ignore the "other" people besides Cap, bucky and Fury who were there. Same with Korea or the Gulf wars.

DC is a little better than Marvel at that. They have a BUNCH of fictional countries that America can be at war with... without outright alienating the opposing country.

Stop putting DATES in the books. Phrases like "Don't be stupid, this is 1974 after all...." Really date the books.

STOP putting REAL presidents in the books. So far Cap has been meeting every president since Kennedy through Bush II, and then they expect it to all blur within 10 years.

This is a FICTIONAL world Elect a President Smith and leave him there indefinetly Make him as nondescript as a mayor in new york or Gotham. HE'S not the star.

How many of these stories are hinged entirely around "who" was president. Who will care in 10 years?

I agree with everything. Specially with the real presidents part. Not only it screws up continuity, but limits a lot potential stories involving big conspiracies, the government, a character running for president, etc.

[StoneGold]

The best answer to solve ALL the problems... well most of them anyways.... is to STOP putting these things in the "Real" war. MAKE up the name of a country that is "vietnamish" for Punisher to have fought in.... WWII is too classic so just ignore the "other" people besides Cap, bucky and Fury who were there. Same with Korea or the Gulf wars.

DC is a little better than Marvel at that. They have a BUNCH of fictional countries that America can be at war with... without outright alienating the opposing country.

Stop putting DATES in the books. Phrases like "Don't be stupid, this is 1974 after all...." Really date the books.

STOP putting REAL presidents in the books. So far Cap has been meeting every president since Kennedy through Bush II, and then they expect it to all blur within 10 years.

This is a FICTIONAL world Elect a President Smith and leave him there indefinetly Make him as nondescript as a mayor in new york or Gotham. HE'S not the star.

How many of these stories are hinged entirely around "who" was president. Who will care in 10 years?

Problem is, it kind of kills one of the conceits of the Marvel Universe, that it is the world outside your door, only with more tight fitting costumes.

[phantom1592]

Problem is, it kind of kills one of the conceits of the Marvel Universe, that it is the world outside your door, only with more tight fitting costumes.

Bahhh... That never really worked anyway. What about all the movies that have "random president" in them. That and the political commentary is a little ridiculus now days. Besides I agree with Omega, If you only deal with the politics of the real world you can't have the President rip off a mask and be the Red Skull or something without offending someone who supports the president the "character" is directly based off. In a country this divided WHY would they want to alienate ANY readers?

Personally I beleive that having superheroes involved with Real life wars like Vietnam or Iraq trivializes the actual events. Everyone remembers the WWII Superman "slap a Jap" comics right?

As for randomly shouting the years... Just have people look and dress current and it will shift with the times. You don't have to randomly tell people when you are ;)

[StoneGold]

In a country this divided WHY would they want to alienate ANY readers?


Because they are hoping to not be bland?



Seriously, if you aren't alienating somebody with popular culture, you are doing something wrong.

[lawman]

Because they are hoping to not be bland?
Seriously, if you aren't alienating somebody with popular culture, you are doing something wrong.
Excellent point.

And the notion that the way to "solve" this problem is to strip away any realistic context from the world they live in strikes me as bizarre. To avoid all reference to current events, trends, political figures, etc., is to leave little but a bland, neutral, and generic world (with perhaps a few fantasy constructs in place of identifiable real-world features) for these non-aging characters to live in. What makes fiction work, gives it dramatic power, emotional authenticity, and a convincing illusion of reality, is the details -- the robust and intricate depiction of the setting(s) the characters occupy, the nuances of interaction between those characters and their world, the developments that result. Take all that away and what's left is more akin to a video game -- a world imagined just enough to provide a backdrop for formulaic combat -- than a meaningful work of fiction. Bleah.

[Titan76]

But they have to estabilish an age for Franklin Richards;
They did, he has a birthday party in the first story arc of MK 4. I forget how old they said he was though.

Did they really change Tony and Xavier in continuity? or was it like something from the editors? Because I must've missed that. Do you know when they changed it?
Tony's was change right after he got back from the Heroes Reborn universe.

To my knowledge Xavier's past didn't get change. His body isn't old because during the "Brood Saga" a brood placed a brood egg inside his body and it took it over. Though because Xavier's girlfriend is the Ruler of the Shi'ar Empire she had her scientists make Xavier a young clone body and transfer his mind into it which is why he doesn't look so old.

What makes Marvel so much better then DC about their character's age is that if they need to make their characters young or change their past they normally would do it quietly so no one notices. This keeps them from having a Crisis ever 10-15 years.

[JoeK32880]

Moving Tony to the Gulf was ridiculous. His origin isn't even tied to a war. He could just as easily have been in any Asian country selling weapons or whatever. There was no reason to change the geography.

Punisher could've been in Vietnam, but not the Vietnam war. No reason to tie it down to the specific conflict. There any number of reasons an group of soldiers could've been sent to Vietnam in the 80s or whatever.

Personally, I love how DC runs. Fictional cities, fictional countris, fictional president. It works so much better for me and I think for them.

But anyway, as for specific aging issues, it doesn't matter too much how it's tackled. If you go back and read back issues it's mildly distracting but pretty easy to ignore. Certain references and mentions of the date are more easily explained away than the technology. How many stories would have been completely different if a character just had a cell phone?

It's best just to ignore that stuff and move on. When you're reading new comics it's not even an issue. You know roughly how old the character's supposed to be, just go with it.

(I should also point out DC seems to be putting very specific times references in their comics now, with 52 and OYL, and placing Identity Crisis about 8 months before Infinite Crisis and whatever)

[StoneGold]

Personally, I love how DC runs. Fictional cities, fictional countris, fictional president. It works so much better for me and I think for them.



Yeah, but then you run into the wackiness like Qurac.

[Ogrebear]

One of the attractions to Marvel is the 'its our world' feel of their books. New York, London, LA, etc are supposed to be like our real world cities apart from the presence of Excalibur, Avengers etc. Marvel has few fictional cities compared to other companies.

Why do you think Reed and co have never solved the African hunger problem? or cancer? or invaded Iraq to remove a dictator? To do so would remove the Marvel Universe too far from our Earth and stop the readership relating to the conflicts, places and characters.

Marvel has shown us other timelines where the effect of superhumans directly effects the world for example Fantastic Four: Big Town. Data here (http://www.republiquelibre.org/cousture/bd/wan/BIGTOWN.HTM) or Here (http://www.ffplaza.com/library/?title=Big+Town&from=&to=&writers=&colorists=&artists=&letterers=&inkers=&notes=&appearances=) or the entire Ultimate Line, and various What If's too.

[Strannik]

<The scene: Dr. Stranges sanctum. Strange is sitting at a large table with sigils inscribed in the surface. A number of half-seen entities are just getting up to leave. Several are disturbingly similar to mighty entities of magic and mythic gods.
One is a smaller form, sheated in white light, dimming slightly to reveal the features of a young boy>

Strange: And thank you all for coming...especially our new guest Mr. Richards

The boy (astonished) Mr. Richards!?

Strange: It is your name, well, Franklin if you prefer. Wait for a moment, if you would.

<The other beings leave>

Strange: So, ah, Franklin, it is your birthday soon?

Franklin: Yeah! Are you coming to my party? There are these cool new toys, and I want...

Strange. Yes...yes...how old will you be this time?

Franklin (Suddenly less animated) ...six.

Strange: um, yes, about that...how many sixth birthdays does that make? thirthysomething...

Franklin (corona of light reddens and darkens) I like six.

Strange: (Flinches back) Yes, yes, nothing wrong with six...It was quite good as I recall...

Franklin: (Brightening) Yes, and there are all sorts of cool toys you didn't have on the farm in '36...dad is making my playstation even better! Just wait 'll Alex sees it!

Strange: Yes...your dad is the smartest man in the world, isn't he?

Franklin: (Distracted) You bet!

Strange: And so it becomes...But the age thing...(miserable) see...the others asked me to speak to you about it...don't you think you should try another one? There are things to be said for other ages...

Franklin: (Interrupts) You mean sex? Ew! Dis-gusting!

Strange: Well...the place is getting confusing, you see...Peter has been a young man since the Vietnam War...and...

Franklin: Hey, I let him have a degree, right? And get married. To a supermodel. I don't mind that he likes that stuff, unca Johnny does too.

Strange: Yes...your uncle Johnny was married for a while too, wasn't he? They don't seem to recall that much...

Franklin: It didn't work out. He didn't play with me as much after he got married.

Strange: But...Stark was an industrialist during the Vietnam war...your dad fought in world war 2...they are almost the same age with Peter and that Cannonball fellow...

Franklin: Do you really think they would prefer their chronological age?

Strange: Well...and your friends? The Powers? Do they get to try other ages? Get degrees?

Franklin: No. Not ever. My friends stay with me. Forever. This is my world, magican. No-one grows old on Åsgard or Olympus. They fight the Jotuns and titans forever and the good guys never lose. Why should my world be different?

Hey! I had that idea several months ago.

Not that I am complaining or saying that you ripped me off or anything of the sort. I just felt a need to point it out.

Then again, I suppose it doesn't take that much of a a leap to come up with that sort of thing, given the fact that Franklin's erratic aging and his omnipitant powers.

[mattx110]

They did, he has a birthday party in the first story arc of MK 4. I forget how old they said he was though.



umm, "forget" or had it removed from your mind by franklin richards...
answer this as truthfully as possible, we may have already lost the war.

[Omega Alpha]

Problem is, it kind of kills one of the conceits of the Marvel Universe, that it is the world outside your door, only with more tight fitting costumes.

You don't need Bush to be the president to have a world which is like the world outside your door. And, like i said, you eliminate tons of storyline potential.


Personally I beleive that having superheroes involved with Real life wars like Vietnam or Iraq trivializes the actual events. Everyone remembers the WWII Superman "slap a Jap" comics right?


Not to mention, if Osama Bin Laden is out there, why the hell are superheroes figthing each other or going to space? Couldn't Reed Richards or Tony Stark, or even Wolverine going by the smell, or any telepath, find him very easily?

[Ogrebear]

Not to mention, if Osama Bin Laden is out there, why the hell are superheroes figthing each other or going to space? Couldn't Reed Richards or Tony Stark, or even Wolverine going by the smell, or any telepath, find him very easily?

Although Marvel had a comic in which 9/11 happened that great disaster can't happen in Marvel's universe, esp in NYC- at least nothing like what was shown in that Spider-Man comic anyway. Thus Osama, Iraq, Afghanistan and co are rarely mentioned - you want the Ultimate Universe for that short of thing.

[Omega Alpha]

Although Marvel had a comic in which 9/11 happened that great disaster can't happen in Marvel's universe, esp in NYC- at least nothing like what was shown in that Spider-Man comic anyway. Thus Osama, Iraq, Afghanistan and co are rarely mentioned - you want the Ultimate Universe for that short of thing.

But they shouldn't be rarely mentioned, they should just not be mentioned at all. Even in the UU is bad, or even worse, if the Ultimates are government employers, why are them not figthing terrorists or something?

[Tazirai]

Creepy and funny, and exactly what Marvel should have done instead of House of M, if they had the courage to directly face their aging problem.


Basically haha, It's a good segue into why Marvel heroes will never truly age unless they are from Earth "Whatever is the flavor this month".

[thorionthei]

LOL, it was funny. You know I am not sure they should age that fast. I do think they should age and we can use newer characters, etc.

I consider marvel time very slow. Franklin should probably be 10 now not 6. ;)
I don't have a problem with that. Marvel has been priding themselves on how realistic they are so I think their characters should age but very slowly.

As someone mentioned forget the current presidents or wars, etc.

[HeckBoy]

The one thing I liked about DC was the fact that they had a lot of legacy characters, and you got to see some time changes thru those characters passing on their mantles (or sidekicks growing up into their own). Of course that was almost all in the past, as today's legacies are more in the line of "someone dies in a big crisis so needs to be replaced" instead of an actual aging of characters. Plus, the whole fact that Batman's gone thru like 3 or so Robins without showing any age just kinda throws that time progression thing out the window.

What with all these changes in the Marvel U, I've almost got half a mind to want to see some kind of cosmic reboot. But if they did, it would really just reset back in media res instead of starting all the way back to the beginning with like a teenage Spider-Man (and that's what the Ultimate U is for, although they don't age either)

[phantom1592]

The one thing I liked about DC was the fact that they had a lot of legacy characters, and you got to see some time changes thru those characters passing on their mantles (or sidekicks growing up into their own). Of course that was almost all in the past, as today's legacies are more in the line of "someone dies in a big crisis so needs to be replaced" instead of an actual aging of characters. Plus, the whole fact that Batman's gone thru like 3 or so Robins without showing any age just kinda throws that time progression thing out the window.

Umm.... What legacy character are you thinking off? Nobody really "hands" over their name and costume. Its ALWAYS been about replacing the dead guy. Heros don't retire. they never give up. Its what makes them Heroes.

The only time a mantle was passed that I can recall was Dick Grayson changing costumes, He's the only one that was replaced that didn't die that I can think of.


What with all these changes in the Marvel U, I've almost got half a mind to want to see some kind of cosmic reboot.

People give DC a bad rap for "needing" constant restarts, but I don't. I think Marvel "needs" a reboot just as badly as DC ever did. I prefer DC giving us a solid outline of what IS and is NOT still in continuity. Marvel just has a habit of "never mentioning" what they don't like. Did the Clone saga happen? Did Daredevils Fall from Grace happen? Who's dead, who's not? The Just ignore anything that doesn't jive with "this" story gets a little old. I think a good restart is a good thing.


But if they did, it would really just reset back in media res instead of starting all the way back to the beginning with like a teenage Spider-Man (and that's what the Ultimate U is for, although they don't age either)

Actually they ARE supposed to age, I heard something like one year for every 100 issues. which is different from what they said they were going to do. They were supposed to NEVER age in the Ultimate world. Like Bart simpson was the example they used at the time.

[Omega Alpha]

Actually they ARE supposed to age, I heard something like one year for every 100 issues. which is different from what they said they were going to do. They were supposed to NEVER age in the Ultimate world. Like Bart simpson was the example they used at the time.

Actually, the 100 issues thing is Bendis idea for Spidey, so Pete will only go to college around issue #400. In the other books, there seems to be no rule about it.

[jackolover]

Actually, the 100 issues thing is Bendis idea for Spidey, so Pete will only go to college around issue #400. In the other books, there seems to be no rule about it.

I remember in a recent Initiatives book, didn't Tony say he's known Cap for 6-7 years?

[Titan76]

umm, "forget" or had it removed from your mind by franklin richards...
answer this as truthfully as possible, we may have already lost the war.
I just checked the issue. Its in issue #1 of MK 4 and Franklin turns 8 years old in that issue.

[Titan76]

You don't need Bush to be the president to have a world which is like the world outside your door. And, like i said, you eliminate tons of storyline potential.
When has President Bush appear in 616 Marvel?

And Marvel did make up a President during the 90's, they didn't use Clinton. The made up President was even a Hulk issue that I have.