Could a Batwoman title actually work?

[elias_A]

I just had this weird idea that DC might want to kill two birds with one stone and stop us Batgirl fans from boycotting a new Batwoman title by making Cassandra a supporting character there.

I know a lot of us, me included, have a pretty bad opinion of Batwoman, but let's forget all that for a moment and consider a best-case scenario.

Could a Batwoman title actually be good?

So far we know only six facts about Kate: Her name, that she belongs to two minorities, that she has history with Montoya, her family is very rich and that her Batarangs are of inferior quality.

So a good writer has a lot of room to flesh her out. (Just think of what PAD did with Layla Miller.)

Most important questions:
What is her motive for being Batwoman?
How well is she trained? By whom?
Are her parents still alive, or some other close relatives she has to hide her superhero identity from?

And of course: How will Batman react when he returns?

If he just allows her to continue, and she is not well-trained, I will certainly be very angry, considering how he treated Spoiler.
He could also force her to hard training, like he did with Sasha Bordeaux.
But if she gets her own title, she should work mostly independently, not as his sidekick.

I have to admit that's an advantage for Kate: She has her own money and is not dependant of Bruce for equipment.
On the other hand, she lives in Gotham. It would diminish Batman if he has to share "his" city with independent competition.

Maybe Kate's Gotham will be on another earth? A lot of problems, but advantages as well.

Anyway, I see one interesting possibility for Kate stories:
As a rich member of the high society who is not such a perfect actor as Bruce, and probably has real friends there, she could be involved in high-society crimes and tragedies in an interesting way:
Since she wouldn't be as emotionally distant as Bruce there, and also not such a good detective.
In short, she would be more vulnerable.
Also, villains like Joker and Scarecrow could exploit her fears in interesting ways they would not manage with the too-perfect Batman.


On the other hand, I still think it's quite possible Batwoman will die in 52. Everyone's argument seems to be that she had to much media attention for that. But as we have seen, misdirection and surprises are a big part of 52. (That's why I'm also not sure Montoya will really become the new question.)

What do you think?
(And remember, I want to discuss the POTENTIAL of the character, not DCs probably stupid motives for introducing her.)

[Captain Jim]

Well, as someone who's been accumulating issues of 52 but hasn't read any of them yet...

*Could* an ongoing title be good? Of course--if they had a writer that was really motivated and had a great plan for how to use her. I'm of the opinion that there are no bad characters, simply bad execution. Is that likely to happen? Uh, let's just say that I'm skeptical.

I really think she *will* be given her own book at some point; can't really see her being killed off already. Perhaps they're waiting for someone to come up with a proposal that sounds like a real winner.

[elias_A]

Well, as someone who's been accumulating issues of 52 but hasn't read any of them yet...


That's really no problem here. Batwoman has done hardly anything in 52 yet, and all we know about her are the facts I mentioned.

[shaxper]

It's all about the writer, of course. If Warren Ellis was feeling particularly inspired, Scooby-Doo could be the next great comic book series of this generation.

Barring that, however, no. I don't think Batwoman is going to win over any readers on the strength of her premise alone. Not only is she a woefully one-dimensional character right now (Rich lesbian. Got it), but she's an outsider in the Bat-family. Without strong ties to Batman, Nightwing, or Robin, she's not going to get that overflow of readers who will buy anything Batman. All she's got is the costume.

[Erik Morimoto]

I don't know. Being a Batgirl fan (Cass and Babs) i would prefer a proper Batgirl Relaunch But why not after all. Cass was a new character in "No man's land" and it turns out to be great til crisis so why not?
My only concern is that i don't know batwoman enough because I only read one issus of 52. The whole lesbian thing is not a real problem for me but i think it looks too much like a publicity stunt without a good reason. If writers find a good way to add some flesh to her character (and by flesh, i don't mean girls) it could be a good thing.
I would like to know her motivation and what she want.

One more thing: is it me or the DCverse is suddenly full of lesbian (i mean Montoya, Batwoman, Holly and her girlfriend, The female cop in Superman, the two girls in outsider and some amazones...). My concern is that it seems to be done only to be "hot" for fanboys.

[Arawn]

It's all about the writer, of course. If Warren Ellis was feeling particularly inspired, Scooby-Doo could be the next great comic book series of this generation.

Barring that, however, no. I don't think Batwoman is going to win over any readers on the strength of her premise alone. Not only is she a woefully one-dimensional character right now (Rich lesbian. Got it), but she's an outsider in the Bat-family. Without strong ties to Batman, Nightwing, or Robin, she's not going to get that overflow of readers who will buy anything Batman. All she's got is the costume.

You are failing to take into account the sheer number of perverted lonely guys tat buy comics. And there are a whole lot of them...They keep my store in bussiness. Get a good art team on Batwoman and title it 'Batwoman Lesbian in Tights' and it will sell.

Sad but oh so true.

[Cayman]

Sure, but I'd prefer her to not be too involved with Batman. I'd rather her be able to stand on her own.

[Starba]

I don't know. Being a Batgirl fan (Cass and Babs) i would prefer a proper Batgirl Relaunch But why not after all. Cass was a new character in "No man's land" and it turns out to be great til crisis so why not?
My only concern is that i don't know batwoman enough because I only read one issus of 52. The whole lesbian thing is not a real problem for me but i think it looks too much like a publicity stunt without a good reason. If writers find a good way to add some flesh to her character (and by flesh, i don't mean girls) it could be a good thing.
I would like to know her motivation and what she want.

I agree with you here. On No Man's Land alone I probably wouldn't have given two spits about Cassandra Cain, but suddenly when the story gets told from her POV there's magic. It'll take a good writer, of course, but I'm not ruling out Batwoman yet. I just hope there's more emphasis on creating a good character than being gimmicky and reproducing the Silver Age.

[DWEarhart]

The best test would be two or three mini-series. You'll get complete stories as well as character insight and development. They did it with Time Drake's Robin, but as with any book, it's all about the creative team.

The right team will make any character readable.

[Citizen V]

I would guess yes.Common sence the title would sell if the comic had a good artist.

[Captain Jim]

I just hope there's more emphasis on creating a good character than being gimmicky and reproducing the Silver Age.

Really don't think this is going to be about reproducing the Silver Age. The Kathy Kane of the 1960's was nothing like this.

[Captain Jim]

The best test would be two or three mini-series. You'll get complete stories as well as character insight and development. They did it with Time Drake's Robin, but as with any book, it's all about the creative team.

The right team will make any character readable.

Right. So while starting off with a mini-series is a pretty good idea, you still need a winning character proposal even before that.

[protege]

I just had this weird idea that DC might want to kill two birds with one stone and stop us Batgirl fans from boycotting a new Batwoman title by making Cassandra a supporting character there.

I know a lot of us, me included, have a pretty bad opinion of Batwoman, but let's forget all that for a moment and consider a best-case scenario.

Could a Batwoman title actually be good?

So far we know only six facts about Kate: Her name, that she belongs to two minorities, that she has history with Montoya, her family is very rich and that her Batarangs are of inferior quality.

So a good writer has a lot of room to flesh her out. (Just think of what PAD did with Layla Miller.)

Most important questions:
What is her motive for being Batwoman?
How well is she trained? By whom?
Are her parents still alive, or some other close relatives she has to hide her superhero identity from?

And of course: How will Batman react when he returns?

If he just allows her to continue, and she is not well-trained, I will certainly be very angry, considering how he treated Spoiler.
He could also force her to hard training, like he did with Sasha Bordeaux.
But if she gets her own title, she should work mostly independently, not as his sidekick.

I have to admit that's an advantage for Kate: She has her own money and is not dependant of Bruce for equipment.
On the other hand, she lives in Gotham. It would diminish Batman if he has to share "his" city with independent competition.

Maybe Kate's Gotham will be on another earth? A lot of problems, but advantages as well.

Anyway, I see one interesting possibility for Kate stories:
As a rich member of the high society who is not such a perfect actor as Bruce, and probably has real friends there, she could be involved in high-society crimes and tragedies in an interesting way:
Since she wouldn't be as emotionally distant as Bruce there, and also not such a good detective.
In short, she would be more vulnerable.
Also, villains like Joker and Scarecrow could exploit her fears in interesting ways they would not manage with the too-perfect Batman.


On the other hand, I still think it's quite possible Batwoman will die in 52. Everyone's argument seems to be that she had to much media attention for that. But as we have seen, misdirection and surprises are a big part of 52. (That's why I'm also not sure Montoya will really become the new question.)

What do you think?
(And remember, I want to discuss the POTENTIAL of the character, not DCs probably stupid motives for introducing her.)

Let's face it, they killed off Isis, turned Sobek into a man eating croc, and Supernova is history. So, I'm not counting on Batwoman to survivie past 52. Honestly, what was the point of introducing all these heroes if none of them were going to make it out alive?

[Starba]

Really don't think this is going to be about reproducing the Silver Age. The Kathy Kane of the 1960's was nothing like this.

True, but the heels, the flowing hair, bat-baton, "drop dead gorgeousness." She's like an amalgamation of Catwoman and Barbara Gordon Batgirl. Okay, so maybe she's more Bronze Age than Silver Age, but there's still something very premodern about her presentation so far.

[Magneto_X]

If Cass becomes Batwoman I can see it working.

Lipstick Lesbian Woman just doesn't cut it.

[Rupertmetal]

One more thing: is it me or the DCverse is suddenly full of lesbian (i mean Montoya, Batwoman, Holly and her girlfriend, The female cop in Superman, the two girls in outsider and some amazones...). My concern is that it seems to be done only to be "hot" for fanboys.

It's not just you. I'm thinking the same thing. And that is why I wouldn't want Batwoman to get her own book. The only reason would be so they could say they were the first to give a lesbian her own book.

Honestly, I don't like the idea of a Batwoman existing at all, no matter what her sexual preferences are. You can't just make a female version of every male character and vice versa. That is annoying.

If Batwoman gets her own book, then I want Wonder Man to get his own book haha. Instead of being an amazon, he can be a barbarian haha.

[Captain Jim]

Well, to be fair, I really don't think DC's main motivation in making Batwoman a lesbian is to have something "hot for fanboys." Their big thing right now seems to be making every new character a member of some minority group. While I'm certainly not against including minorities in such roles, and I guess you could say DC is "making up for lost time," it does seem rather artificial to me that EVERY new hero has to be a minority now. And it does kind of grate on me when they replace a long-standing hero with someone new just so they can have another minority in place.

[elias_A]

While I'm certainly not against excluding minorities from such roles, (...)

Uhm. You probably mean your certainly not FOR excluding minorities, right? :confused:

[Captain Jim]

Uhm. You probably mean your certainly not FOR excluding minorities, right? :confused:

Oh good grief, I can't believe I did that. And I was being so careful too. Fixed now. Thanks elias. :o

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I was just thinking about it but I don't remember seeing a review in this forum about the Animated Batman: Mystery of the Batwoman movie.

[Starba]

It was...disappointing.

Twa-la~!

[SoulStar]

I would prefer the BatWomen in Batman: Mystery of the BatWoman(oh no I made a spoiler! Hah! I don't care). Multiple women who take under the same guise as to make people always second guess your identity is pure genius and interesting all at the same time. Which is why Batman the animated series universe is superior above all else. Thankyou Bruce Timm. The Batwoman who is currently in comics right now? Pure showboating. She's a lesbian? Wow...great that's umm...yeaa...not caring. She's rich? Ok once again...so what?She dated..Renee Montoya? Don't disrespect Montoya like that. I would rather for her to have her own series before her former lover ever gets the chance. She is far more interesting. Plus she's a cooler lesbian lol. And oh yea..Batwoman is kinda .....hackey..and lazy..and...lord the list goes on..to make it short; please god kill her off or make her have very little appearances..she bores me.Normally I'm not this negative on characters..but man...

[Erik Lehnsherr]

I liked the movie. I liked how Bruce thought he had it figured out but was pretty off for the course of the movie until the very end. They had a good plan and it worked out better than I thought it could of against the world's greatest detective. And I liked how odd he was acting when Barbara would call him and try to flirt with him. Pretty good outing.

[elias_A]

I think the Batwoman movie was very good.

Especially the characterisation of the three women.