Batgirl: Batmans successor?

[Lauren_Guerra]

As a female I always felt DC comics had the best reprsentation of female characters with one of my favorites being Batgirl Cassandra Cain. It always seemed to me as Batman at one point was looking at Batgirl as an eventual successor and her popularity at the time among readers I felt was pretty high. I hate to think of reasons why DC did what they did to her character OYL but is it possible they didnt want her to eclipse Robin: Tim Drake? thats what I always felt but I definetly could be wrong. Any thoughts

[Starba]

As a female I always felt DC comics had the best reprsentation of female characters with one of my favorites being Batgirl Cassandra Cain. It always seemed to me as Batman at one point was looking at Batgirl as an eventual successor and her popularity at the time among readers I felt was pretty high. I hate to think of reasons why DC did what they did to her character OYL but is it possible they didnt want her to eclipse Robin: Tim Drake? thats what I always felt but I definetly could be wrong. Any thoughts

You'd have to be pretty darn sexist to say that of all the Bat-family Cassandra wasn't the most capable of stepping up to the role of the protector in Gotham City. She couldn't play the role of detective, of course, but she's genuinely the most competent, calm, and scary members of the clan outside of Batman himself. She'd make a great Terry McGuinnis-style Bat successor.

Unfortunately any thoughts of women playing a truly significant presence in the DCU were quelched when Dan Didio became EiC in 2002. Now the women and girls are all safely sidekicks, troubled youths, victims, and frequently not ideal or heroic enough to be considered role models (see killers like Manhunter and Wonder Woman). In other words, we're safely back to the pre-Jeannette Kahn status quo.

[ChthonicSpirit]

Who on earth can understand why they did what they did to her? I certainly don't.

On the whole, though, the current Powers That Be seem to be moving the DCU back towards the silver age. They might have wanted to move Cass out to make room for Kate Kane, not wanting more than one woman in the Bat-family. It's a poor trade, if you ask me.

[Starba]

Who on earth can understand why they did what they did to her? I certainly don't.

On the whole, though, the current Powers That Be seem to be moving the DCU back towards the silver age. They might have wanted to move Cass out to make room for Kate Kane, not wanting more than one woman in the Bat-family. It's a poor trade, if you ask me.

Maybe having a female that's the best at anything is just too hard to wrap the head around. :rolleyes:

[ChthonicSpirit]

Maybe having a female that's the best at anything is just too hard to wrap the head around. :rolleyes:

I hope no one at DC thinks too hard about Lady Shiva.

[Starba]

I hope no one at DC thinks too hard about Lady Shiva.

You mean like when she got beaten with one hit in Superman/Batman, Birds of Prey, and HUSH?

[ChthonicSpirit]

You mean like when she got beaten with one hit in Superman/Batman, Birds of Prey, and HUSH?

Yeah. Like those times, unfortunately.

[Captain Jim]

It always seemed to me as Batman at one point was looking at Batgirl as an eventual successor

One could probably debate whether or not Batman was looking to her for this, but it's unquestionable that she thought of herself in this way; she said so more than once.

her popularity at the time among readers I felt was pretty high.

When her book was new, it was pretty high. I think it eased over the years, though. Even at the time the book was cancelled, however, sales weren't really bad.

I hate to think of reasons why DC did what they did to her character OYL but is it possible they didnt want her to eclipse Robin: Tim Drake? thats what I always felt but I definetly could be wrong. Any thoughts

I don't really think that was it. (Though the Robin competition definitely did have something to do with Didio's planned demise of Nightwing.) I just don't think he personally cared for the character that much. That, and he was already making plans for the new Batwoman character. I really think the competition was probably more Batgirl vs. Batwoman than Batgirl vs. Robin.

[Mia]

Cass is a great fighter. And like Nightwing and Catwoman she appears to have a great deal of 'street smarts', but no book' smarts. She never struck me as being very cerebral or intellectually bent to be on par Batman, and I don't simply mean because she couldn't read.

Tim as far as I'm concerned is just a geek and a nerd dressed up as a superhero. He will never be as cool at Batman.



The only character in the Batverse who came close to Batman (IMHO) and that was the pre BOP/Outsiders Huntress. She had both books smarts and street smarts, played to win and had very high standards--much like Batman.

[colossus34]

Cass is a great fighter. And like Nightwing and Catwoman she appears to have a great deal of 'street smarts', but no book' smarts. She never struck me as being very cerebral or intellectually bent to be on par Batman, and I don't simply mean because she couldn't read.

Tim as far as I'm concerned is just a geek and a nerd dressed up as a superhero. He will never be as cool at Batman.

The only character in the Batverse who came close to Batman (IMHO) and that was the pre BOP/Outsiders Huntress. She had both books smarts and street smarts, played to win and had very high standards--much like Batman.

Cass Cain is no where NEAR Bat's successor. She's primarily a martial artist similar to Lady Shiva or Constanine Drakoon. No thourogh training in science, escapology, theatrics, detective skills etc(what make Bats what he is) She's never going to be well rounded enough to ever fill the cape--personally now that shes reverted back maybe she can take on a new identity(KAsumi maybe?) where she can live up to her full potential as a martial artist character--which most people see her as.

To be fair, the only person in canon who has taken the mantle twice is Grayson and he did a damn good job---just decided he had made his own persona as Nightwing and didn't need to become his mentor.

[Mia]

Cass Cain is no where NEAR Bat's successor. She's primarily a martial artist similar to Lady Shiva or Constanine Drakoon. No thourogh training in science, escapology, theatrics, detective skills etc(what make Bats what he is) She's never going to be well rounded enough to ever fill the cape--personally now that shes reverted back maybe she can take on a new identity(KAsumi maybe?) where she can live up to her full potential as a martial artist character--which most people see her as.




Well heh, that was my point!:D

[Captain Jim]

To be fair, the only person in canon who has taken the mantle twice is Grayson.

Twice? Let's see, one was in Prodigal and the other was...I'm drawing a blank. :confused:

[Starba]

I dunno, Dick can WEAR the Batsuit, but the whole point of a Robin is to be Batman's foil. A Robin in a Batman costume is just that, unless you want to completely rewrite his personality and how he fights crime.

[Erik Morimoto]

I'm a huge fan of Cass (she and Catwoman brought me back to the batverse) in her pre-crisis adventures (of course). I think she would make really good successor to the Batman. Not perfect but close enough.
As she can't read and doesn't know anything in sciences and technologies, she can't match with Batman or even Robins detectives skills (she can deduce things but there is always some missing pieces in the puzzle. I think it's not a big deal because there is always Oracle for that).
But as a crime fighter and peace keeper she would be the direct heir more than any Robins.
Why? because every Robins (or at least Dick, Tim and Steph. I don't know Jason well enough) try to lead a normal life in a way or another at a point of their lifes. Cass doesn't care of her social life at all, she's Batgirl before being Cassandra and it took some effort to Oracle to change that (even a little bit).
Cass has the commitment and the will. She was trained to kill all her childhood without knowing what it meant and her first kill showed her it was wrong and she choose the path of justice just like Bruce learned what crime and violence is when his parents were murder.
So, with Batman being the surrogate father and Oracle being the surrogate mother. she's the best successor of the Bat. Plus, she look good in those thights.
It would make a good "What if" (with Spoiler as Robin).

[Captain Jim]

Welcome to CBR, Erik. :)

[The Cool Thatguy]

Cass has the will to be the next Batman, she simply lacks the proper training. Remember, all indications are that Cass is an exceptionally intelligent young woman, who is somewhat hampered by her upbringing.

Her ability to casually read body language would allow her to nagivate around crime scenes and murder investigations with just as much ease as Batman. Even before she knew how to speak, Cass knew the world of hired killers like the back of her hand. Against people like Deathstroke, Deadshot or some other professional killer, Cass has as much insight into their minds as Batman has into the Riddler's.

Cass' real weakness would be, IMO, the costumed nuts that roam Gotham. She would have a hard time adjusting to their M.Os, and in Gotham, that's a problem ;)

Regardless though, Cass does have the will and potential to follow closely in Batman's footsteps. We'll just never see anything resembling that in canon, because Cass isn't from the Silver Age.

[shaunyc56]

I don't know, I like Cass, but, she lacks more than just the training, (forensics, etc). She doesn't seem like she'd be all that great at metahuman combat, figuring out powerlevel and limits, or the tactical leadership role Batman takes up in group situations. Now, a bone collector situation where she'd be Barbara's vessel, that I could see.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I think Cass would do a wonderful sucessor.
I don´t think she needs to master all the fields of knowledge Batman has (which is just ridiculous, nobody HUMAN can be the best-or 2nd best- at everything).

The fact that she has handicaps only adds to her humanity, something that is in short supply in the DCU.

I don´t care for perfect superheroes who are best at everything, I want to read about extraordinary people who can overcome the hardships that present to him/her.

Cass fits this to a T.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I don't know, I like Cass, but, she lacks more than just the training, (forensics, etc). She doesn't seem like she'd be all that great at metahuman combat, figuring out powerlevel and limits, or the tactical leadership role Batman takes up in group situations. Now, a bone collector situation where she'd be Barbara's vessel, that I could see.

Cass has done pretty good at meta-human combat thus far, actually. Properly trained, I can't see forensics being that hard for her (Cain had to have trained her in poisons, bomb making and other stuff) once properly trained. Leadership wise, yeah she'd probably fall short compared to Bats or Nightwing.

[Alan2099]

Batgirl just doesn't seem versitile enough to take over for Batman. I'm not saying that she needs to be the best at everyting, but other than fighting and brooding, she realy doesn't stand out in the crowd that much.

[shaunyc56]

I know Batmans almost god like ability to learn and retain everything is getting a little out of hand, w/ the rate at which Superman is constantly getting upgraded I think Batman's intelligence should stay on par.

But to stay on topic, the scary stuff can't be duplicated, nor Batman's determination, but the closest 2 I can see to where Batman is now skill, leadership, fighting, and tactics wise would be Nightwing, and pls don't kill me, but Mr. Terrific. I know at first it sounds crazy, but if you cut out all the spooky, Mr. Terrific is pretty close.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

People must start taking new approaches to subjects, this isn´t a CSI show.

Cass may not be the best forensics expert in the world but she has resources forensics experts only wish they had.
She can unlock clues in a crime scenne just by looking at half a second of CCTV footage,
She can offer a different insight into the criminal psyche, approach a case from angles forensics and detectives don´t even dream of.

There´s more than one way to crack a case, there´s more than one way to fight the good fight.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Batgirl just doesn't seem versitile enough to take over for Batman. I'm not saying that she needs to be the best at everyting, but other than fighting and brooding, she realy doesn't stand out in the crowd that much.


I'd disagreed with the whole 'she doesn't stand out' bit, but no one's saying she is versitile enough to currently take over for Batman. I'm argueing she simply has the potential.

[shaunyc56]

I'd disagreed with the whole 'she doesn't stand out' bit, but no one's saying she is versitile enough to currently take over for Batman. I'm argueing she simply has the potential.

Your right, I know I did kind of ignore the potential part of your inital question. But you've got to admit, theres a lot of training to be done, in Cass's favor are her youth, enthusiasm, and her own dogged determination. I don't think she could ever be the detective Batman, Tim, Barbara, or Dick is now, but she could get damn close.

She could def get the hang of undercover if it where based on copying someone, I don't really get "creative" from her.

[Lorendiac]

Twice? Let's see, one was in Prodigal and the other was...I'm drawing a blank. :confused:

Well, there's been a zillion different occasions, going back decades, when Dick has "briefly impersonated" Batman (usually with Bruce's full approval) -- but only as a quick stunt each time, when circumstances make it advisable. I admit that I don't think of those as cases of "taking the mantle." More like "emergency pinch-hitting." :)

Like you, I can only think of "Prodigal" when I search my memory for an example of Dick's trying to fill Batman's boots for a really extended period of time -- as opposed to five or ten minutes at a stretch and then changing right back into his regular outfit.

[Lester C.]

On paper Batgirl will be the ideal successor once she gets her detective skills up to snuff. Tim not a good enough fighter and Dick will never be ready as he has been finding himself for several decades now. That said it will never happen as the Bat Office hate her. She always left out of Major Bat Arcs outright or reduced to a minor character.

[Magneto_X]

In her title Cass was routinely convinced she was going to replace Bruce one day. She even spoke to Tim about it in "Fresh Blood" IIRC.

[shaunyc56]

On paper Batgirl will be the ideal successor once she gets her detective skills up to snuff. Tim not a good enough fighter and Dick will never be ready as he has been finding himself for several decades now. That said it will never happen as the Bat Office hate her. She always left out of Major Bat Arcs outright or reduced to a minor character.


See, now there is a question. Is it easier to get Tim better as a fighter, than it would be to get Cass better as a detective. If you put it on paper the only thing Tim doesn't really do as well as batman is fight. Detective skills, Tech skills, Tactics, Leadership, also I think he around genius level intelligent so learning and retaining comes natural to him.

Cass fighting skills are probably even better than the Bat, right now, that is just so powerful, it can't be denied.

Nightwing does have the whole, "I do not want to be him" thing. But he really only is a few steps behind batman in all ability areas. Also on respect alone, I can't see Superman saying, Cass what are you thinking we should do here, but I can see him asking Dick or Tim for input on something.

[The Cool Thatguy]

See, now there is a question. Is it easier to get Tim better as a fighter, than it would be to get Cass better as a detective. If you put it on paper the only thing Tim doesn't really do as well as batman is fight. Detective skills, Tech skills, Tactics, Leadership, also I think he around genius level intelligent so learning and retaining comes natural to him.

Cass fighting skills are probably even better than the Bat, right now, that is just so powerful, it can't be denied.

Nightwing does have the whole, "I do not want to be him" thing. But he really only is a few steps behind batman in all ability areas. Also on respect alone, I can't see Superman saying, Cass what are you thinking we should do here, but I can see him asking Dick or Tim for input on something.

In fairness to Cass, she has genius level intelligence too. The problem is beyond combat, she's almost entirely self taught.

As for leadership skills, I dunno if I'd rate Tim that much higher than Cass. While Cass has never really led a team to my knowledge, I do know that Young Justice was a train wreck in terms of leadership ;)

[Starba]

In fairness to Cass, she has genius level intelligence too. The problem is beyond combat, she's almost entirely self taught.

As for leadership skills, I dunno if I'd rate Tim that much higher than Cass. While Cass has never really led a team to my knowledge, I do know that Young Justice was a train wreck in terms of leadership ;)

Actually, Cass tried to lead a splinter group of the League of Assassins at the end of her own series and it didn't work well because she's not used to putting things into words. But, arguably, Batman can be like that, too, depending on who's writing him.

[NotSuper]

If Batman wanted a successor then he would just clone a younger version of himself. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he has a contingency plan to clone himself if he ever dies. He's certainly rich enough to do this.

[SoulStar]

As a female I always felt DC comics had the best reprsentation of female characters with one of my favorites being Batgirl Cassandra Cain. It always seemed to me as Batman at one point was looking at Batgirl as an eventual successor and her popularity at the time among readers I felt was pretty high. I hate to think of reasons why DC did what they did to her character OYL but is it possible they didnt want her to eclipse Robin: Tim Drake? thats what I always felt but I definetly could be wrong. Any thoughts

Here's the thing about Cassandra Cain: Do I think she would make a good figurehead for the BatFamily? Yea actually she wouldn't be a bad choice at all considering the other options. The only one that is neck and neck with her is just Tim Drake who is also quite capable of taking over as well. Bruce's actual son(alledgely) is in need of a serious lesson in becoming part of the family buisness. Plus I think it would be quite interesting and very ballsy of DC to make the new representative a strong female. Why not? I would buy that. Only thing for Cassandra to me is that she still needs some serious training in detective skills but that can come with time and experience. After all she is still young. But if not her then definitely Tim Drake since I personally just don't like Bat Woman at all. Sorry I think she's lame as hell and no it's not just because she and Dectective Montoya had a thing. I wouldn't care if she was lesbian or bi or whatever. That was really her only draw as a character imo. Sorry to those who like her.Cassandra on ther other hand was trained since childhood and has clearly learned to adapt more and more plus she has a good relationship with the original Batgirl who is a well suited mentor. Anywhos that's my thoughts

[NotSuper]

Personally, I think that replacing Batman with anyone else would be a financial and creative disater. Even a clone of Bruce wouldn't work.

In regards to Cassandra Cain: I'm completely neutral towards her, but she obviously has her fans. Therefore, it would be a good idea for DC to do something with her and not alienate her fans. Furthermore, I feel that (most of the time) turning a hero into a villain usually doesn't end well. (I especially didn't like how it was done to Hal and later Superboy-Prime.) The reason why it hardly works is because every character--no matter how minor--is someone's favorite. When someone turns them evil, they piss off the fans of that character, which causes them to not read and/or buy as much books.

If they don't want her to be Batgirl then I'm sure they could find something else for her to do. Something that her fans wouldn't hate.

[shaunyc56]

In fairness to Cass, she has genius level intelligence too. The problem is beyond combat, she's almost entirely self taught.

As for leadership skills, I dunno if I'd rate Tim that much higher than Cass. While Cass has never really led a team to my knowledge, I do know that Young Justice was a train wreck in terms of leadership ;)



When Tim was leading them they were'nt that bad. And, not for nothing, they had that whole "piss on the leader to look cool like an Xman" thing going on. Tim seems to have the "leaders charisma" I call it. When a problem spouts, he is the first to have an idea, and he gets it across in a way that makes people buy into it.

Batman has it in spades, to the point that even people who hate the manner in which he is speaking immeadiatley listen any way.

Dick has it even more effectively than Batman, and Tim seems to have picked Dick as the person to emulate when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

[The Cool Thatguy]

When Tim was leading them they were'nt that bad. And, not for nothing, they had that whole "piss on the leader to look cool like an Xman" thing going on. Tim seems to have the "leaders charisma" I call it. When a problem spouts, he is the first to have an idea, and he gets it across in a way that makes people buy into it.

Batman has it in spades, to the point that even people who hate the manner in which he is speaking immeadiatley listen any way.

Dick has it even more effectively than Batman, and Tim seems to have picked Dick as the person to emulate when it comes to interpersonal relationships.


I never saw any leader's charisma in Young Justice. Robin barely held his member's respect at times. They weren't that well coordinated and even towards the end weren't that close as a team. They hung Secret out to dry when her father was about to be executed, for pete's sake!

[shaunyc56]

I never saw any leader's charisma in Young Justice. Robin barely held his member's respect at times. They weren't that well coordinated and even towards the end weren't that close as a team. They hung Secret out to dry when her father was about to be executed, for pete's sake!

Young Justice is in space, little lobo spots Black Racer or skier or whatever out a porthole. he decides to break mission and go after him, Robin orders him to stop, Lobo pulls a Wolverine and jumps at Robin, Superboy leaps to his defense, Robin doesn't move or accept Superboy's help, and w/ Leaders Charisma, talks LOBO down and makes him understand why he needs to stay.

Similar situation happens btwn Robin and Superboy after Tower OF Babel, all the "Tin Jesus'" of the DCU are wary and hostile to the bat family around this time and Robin handles it, again w/o a punch thrown.

I think that in the same situations Cass would have stooped to violence. Sometimes team leaders have to put a finger in a guys chest, but if it can be avoided and still get the point across the team leader is proven more effective in the end.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Young Justice is in space, little lobo spots Black Racer or skier or whatever out a porthole. he decides to break mission and go after him, Robin orders him to stop, Lobo pulls a Wolverine and jumps at Robin, Superboy leaps to his defense, Robin doesn't move or accept Superboy's help, and w/ Leaders Charisma, talks LOBO down and makes him understand why he needs to stay.

Similar situation happens btwn Robin and Superboy after Tower OF Babel, all the "Tin Jesus'" of the DCU are wary and hostile to the bat family around this time and Robin handles it, again w/o a punch thrown.

I think that in the same situations Cass would have stooped to violence. Sometimes team leaders have to put a finger in a guys chest, but if it can be avoided and still get the point across the team leader is proven more effective in the end.

IIRC, the team got in that situation because Superboy broke ranks to follow after Steel instead of rescueing the Suicide Squad (which, I'll admit, would have been pointless). Once they crash land, Superboy and Robin go at it over the Batman issue. The team was fractured, IMO. Hell, Robin leaves a few issues later because half their team simply didn't trust him.

When he comes back, Snapper easily undermined his leadership to bring around a election for team leader, one Tim lost.

It's hard to say how Cass would have done, but Tim's record isn't anything to be proud of. He couldn't keep his team's confidence, he hung Secret out to dry with regards to her father and could barely keep his team together. Hardly the hallmarks of a good leader.

[shaunyc56]

IIRC, the team got in that situation because Superboy broke ranks to follow after Steel instead of rescueing the Suicide Squad (which, I'll admit, would have been pointless). Once they crash land, Superboy and Robin go at it over the Batman issue. The team was fractured, IMO. Hell, Robin leaves a few issues later because half their team simply didn't trust him.

When he comes back, Snapper easily undermined his leadership to bring around a election for team leader, one Tim lost.

It's hard to say how Cass would have done, but Tim's record isn't anything to be proud of. He couldn't keep his team's confidence, he hung Secret out to dry with regards to her father and could barely keep his team together. Hardly the hallmarks of a good leader.

Tim is a kid. Has he always been the perfect leader? No. But what I'm showing are instances where he has shown leadership and done well. There are many more. But the point here is, he already has the experience, even w/ the mistakes, he's already made them, Tim doesn't make the same mistakes twice. Dick was a kid when he first started leading the Titans, and he ----ed up several times as well, and looked how he turned out in the end.

For Cass, she needs to be shown growing up a little more emotionaly, she needs to shown learning how to think ahead when it comes to things other than combat.

[chrismileslord]

Cass Cain is no where NEAR Bat's successor. She's primarily a martial artist similar to Lady Shiva or Constanine Drakoon. No thourogh training in science, escapology, theatrics, detective skills etc(what make Bats what he is) She's never going to be well rounded enough to ever fill the cape--personally now that shes reverted back maybe she can take on a new identity(KAsumi maybe?) where she can live up to her full potential as a martial artist character--which most people see her as.

To be fair, the only person in canon who has taken the mantle twice is Grayson and he did a damn good job---just decided he had made his own persona as Nightwing and didn't need to become his mentor.

Grayson for the win!

[shaunyc56]

[/B]

Grayson for the win!


W/ Tim Drake a distant second.